Orks have two different stratagems that effectively allows them to fight twice:
GET STUCK IN, LADZ! Use this Stratagem at the end of the Fight phase. Select an ORK INFANTRY unit from your army that has already fought once this Fight phase to fight a second time.
ORKS IS NEVER BEATEN Use this Stratagem when an ORK CHARACTER model from your army is slain. That model is not removed from the battlefield as normal, and can immediately either shoot as if it were your Shooting phase, or fight as if it were the Fight phase. The slain model is then removed from the battlefield.
Now ive been told a bit different things so i need to have my rules straightened out.
When it comes to "Get stuck in Ladz! ive been told that if i charge an enemy, i hit him, he dies, i consolidate in to a new unit of enemies, they hit me, i then spend 3CP on this stratagem, then i CANNOT hit these guys? THis is what i have been told yet i dont understand why i cant do this. Sure i didnt charge that unit, but i AM within engagement range of an enemy, so surely i should be able to spend CP to allow to hit again? one of the factors we need to be able to hit someone is that we are within engagement range or we charged someone. I am within engagement range and i pay to hit once again. So i would still not be able to hit? I have not been playing with me being able to hit a unit ive consolidated in to, but for the next stratagem, thats a bit different for me.
For Orks is never beaten, its kind of the same question. I charge, i kill, i consolidate in to another unt. That unit then kills me, i come back with the stratagem THEN i DID hit my opponents units i had not charged (because i was told i could do this and i was within engagement range) and then he dies or doesnt die, doesnt matter i just die afterwards.
On two different occations ive done two different things yet i dont know why they are different. Is there even a difference?
What if i was charged, and attacked, and i pile some of my models in to another unit that didnt charge me (because you pile in to the nearest model, which could be someone that didnt charge you) and i make my first hit, which has to be the charged unit i assume. Then its the end of the fight phase, i guess after that other unit hits me, and i pay 3CP to attack again, can i then attack the unit i piled in to?
The rules between charged -> you are allowed to attack and within engagement range seem confusing to me. Or actually they dont but people then afterwards confuse me. I dont know. All i know is i dont read anywhere that says i cant attack a unit im within engagement range of, regardless of whether i charged them or not.
OMG, this has been discussed at least 100 times here. How can anyone using this forum not have read this ? You cannot make melee attacks against an enemy unit which you didnt charge. The stratagem doesnt change this. See rare rules pg. 362. When you consolidate in engagement range with another unit they can attack you (because they are in engagement range with you), but you cannot attack them, because you didnt charge them.
When its your turn you can only make melee attacks against enemy units which you charged, but your opponent can attack any of your units which are in engagement range of his units.
FIGHT AGAIN
Some rules allow units to fight again in the Fight phase, or fight ‘as if it were the Fight phase’. Such rules cannot be used on a unit unless it is eligible to fight at the time when that rule is used. Remember that a unit is only eligible to fight if it is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit, or if it made a charge move in the same turn. In addition, all the normal targeting rules apply to a unit that is using a rule to fight again (e.g. if the unit made a charge move this turn it can still only target enemy units it declared a charge against or that performed a Heroic Intervention).
Also, ORKS IS NEVER BEATEN doesnt work on a CHARACTER which already has fought, because no unit can fight twice, unless a special rule says otherwise. ORKS IS NEVER BEATEN doesnt remove that restriction. GET STUCK IN, LADZ, says the unit can fight a second time, so they can, restriction is removed.
FIGHT PHASE
No unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase. If all of one player’s eligible units have fought, the opposing player can then fight with their remaining eligible units, one at a time. Note that after an enemy unit has fought and finished its Consolidation move, it might be that previously ineligible units now qualify as such – these units can then be selected to fight with. Once all eligible units have fought, the Fight phase ends and you progress to the Morale phase.
Im super confident Orks is never beaten would allow my warboss to attack after he died, even if hes the one who charged and attacked first. that you can only fight once doesnt stop a lot of stratagems from letting you fight twice anyway, and i read it as "immediately" bypasses that rule (as does a lot others) as it tells you you can immediately fight.
Charge, attack, get attacked, dies, stratagem, attacks, dies afterwards.
I have never seen anyone not using the stratagem like you say, as the ability says "immediately".
Maybe you are right, but ive never seen anyone use it like that. nor have i seen tyranid players use it like that who has a similar ability. they would charge in, hit, die, then attack again before dying.
Beardedragon wrote: GET STUCK IN, LADZ!
Use this Stratagem at the end of the Fight phase. Select an ORK INFANTRY unit from your army that has already fought once this Fight phase to fight a second time.
As noted in the rules, a unit that charged in a turn cannot allocated attacks to a unit it didn't charge unless that unit performed a Heroic Intervention. Thus piling in or consolidating into a unit you did not charge will leave you unable to attack them, even if you used this stratagem.
ORKS IS NEVER BEATEN
Use this Stratagem when an ORK CHARACTER model from your army is slain. That model is not removed from the battlefield as normal, and can immediately either shoot as if it were your Shooting phase, or fight as if it were the Fight phase. The slain model is then removed from the battlefield.
I agree this stratagem will allow an Ork Character to fight a second time if it already fought during the Fight phase. It tells you to fight immediately "as if" and doesn't stipulate the unit could not have fought this phase. GW even changed Only in Death Does Duty End to only be used on a unit that hadn't yet fought to prevent such a double fight. I would expect the same for Orks Are Never Beaten in the upcoming codex.
Beardedragon wrote: GET STUCK IN, LADZ!
Use this Stratagem at the end of the Fight phase. Select an ORK INFANTRY unit from your army that has already fought once this Fight phase to fight a second time.
As noted in the rules, a unit that charged in a turn cannot allocated attacks to a unit it didn't charge unless that unit performed a Heroic Intervention. Thus piling in or consolidating into a unit you did not charge will leave you unable to attack them, even if you used this stratagem.
ORKS IS NEVER BEATEN
Use this Stratagem when an ORK CHARACTER model from your army is slain. That model is not removed from the battlefield as normal, and can immediately either shoot as if it were your Shooting phase, or fight as if it were the Fight phase. The slain model is then removed from the battlefield.
I agree this stratagem will allow an Ork Character to fight a second time if it already fought during the Fight phase. It tells you to fight immediately "as if" and doesn't stipulate the unit could not have fought this phase. GW even changed Only in Death Does Duty End to only be used on a unit that hadn't yet fought to prevent such a double fight. I would expect the same for Orks Are Never Beaten in the upcoming codex.
alextroy wrote: I agree this stratagem will allow an Ork Character to fight a second time if it already fought during the Fight phase. It tells you to fight immediately "as if" and doesn't stipulate the unit could not have fought this phase. GW even changed Only in Death Does Duty End to only be used on a unit that hadn't yet fought to prevent such a double fight. I would expect the same for Orks Are Never Beaten in the upcoming codex.
I disagree, because you need permission to fight a second time, or fight again. The core rules already say a unit cant fight twice, no need to mention that again in the stratagem. GET STUCK IN LADZ has that permission to fight a second time, ORKS IS NEVER BEATEN doesnt.
Jidmah wrote: "It can immediately fight" is all the permission it needs.
id say the same thing. I mean of all the times ive used this stratagem after i charged in, got killed, used the stratagem and hit my enemy before dying again afterwards, ive never had anyone look at the stratagem and go: huh, that seems wrong.
I explain how it works, i sometimes show them the stratagem and they also note the "immediately" part and goes: oh yea, so you can hit immiediately again. nice.
A friend of mine who plays tyranids does the same thing when he uses Death Frenzy.
Jidmah wrote: "It can immediately fight" is all the permission it needs.
No, because the Character can get killed before he has fought the first time. Then you can use the stratagem to fight. You need permission which says you can fight again, or a second time.
Jidmah wrote: "It can immediately fight" is all the permission it needs.
No, because the Character can get killed before he has fought the first time. Then you can use the stratagem to fight. You need permission which says you can fight again, or a second time.
i dont agree with that. I understand immediately as.. well immediately. It says i can hit immediately i will hit immediately. I see your logic, but i dont share it.
You can disagree, but RAW is on my side. You haven't provided a rule citation to back up your argument. Just saying fight immediately is enough doesn't do it.
p5freak wrote: You can disagree, but RAW is on my side. You haven't provided a rule citation to back up your argument. Just saying fight immediately is enough doesn't do it.
That's an arbitrary re-definition of the word can.
The stratagem gives you permission to fight an any time a character dies, the fight phase is no exception.
p5freak wrote: You can disagree, but RAW is on my side. You haven't provided a rule citation to back up your argument. Just saying fight immediately is enough doesn't do it.
That's an arbitrary re-definition of the word can.
The stratagem gives you permission to fight an any time a character dies, the fight phase is no exception.
p5freak wrote: You can disagree, but RAW is on my side. You haven't provided a rule citation to back up your argument. Just saying fight immediately is enough doesn't do it.
That's an arbitrary re-definition of the word can.
The stratagem gives you permission to fight an any time a character dies, the fight phase is no exception.
There are restrictions in place, which have to be followed. One restriction is that you cannot fight a unit you didnt charge, even if you have a stratagem that allows you to fight a second time. You cannot consolidate into another unit and make melee attacks against them, if you didnt charge them. Another restriction is that no unit can fight twice in the same fight phase. Saying that a unit can fight immediately doesnt give it permission to fight again, or a second time.
p5freak wrote: You can disagree, but RAW is on my side. You haven't provided a rule citation to back up your argument. Just saying fight immediately is enough doesn't do it.
That's an arbitrary re-definition of the word can.
The stratagem gives you permission to fight an any time a character dies, the fight phase is no exception.
There are restrictions in place, which have to be followed. One restriction is that you cannot fight a unit you didnt charge, even if you have a stratagem that allows you to fight a second time. You cannot consolidate into another unit and make melee attacks against them, if you didnt charge them. Another restriction is that no unit can fight twice in the same fight phase. Saying that a unit can fight immediately doesnt give it permission to fight again, or a second time.
im pretty sure a referee would say you can attack again after dying, given that it says immediately.
p5freak wrote: You can disagree, but RAW is on my side. You haven't provided a rule citation to back up your argument. Just saying fight immediately is enough doesn't do it.
That's an arbitrary re-definition of the word can.
The stratagem gives you permission to fight an any time a character dies, the fight phase is no exception.
There are restrictions in place, which have to be followed. One restriction is that you cannot fight a unit you didnt charge, even if you have a stratagem that allows you to fight a second time. You cannot consolidate into another unit and make melee attacks against them, if you didnt charge them. Another restriction is that no unit can fight twice in the same fight phase. Saying that a unit can fight immediately doesnt give it permission to fight again, or a second time.
im pretty sure a referee would say you can attack again after dying, given that it says immediately.
Its irrelevant what a referee says, we are talking RAW here, not house rules on a tournament. If you want to support your argument you need to show a rule citation, which you cant, because there isnt any.
ofc there is. It says i can attack immediately. Whether i died early part of the fight phase or late part of the fight phase after i have hit doesnt matter
That doesnt remove the restriction that a unit cannot fight twice in the same fight phase. OIDDDD has been changed to show that. It didnt say "has not already been selected to fight this phase" before. This clearly shows that a unit cannot fight twice, not even with a stratagem.
ONLY IN DEATH DOES DUTY END
Use this Stratagem in the Fight phase, when an ADEPTUS ASTARTES CHARACTER model from your army that has not already been selected to fight this phase is destroyed. Do not remove that model from play - it can fight after the attacking model’s unit has finished making attacks. After resolving the destroyed model’s attacks, it is then removed.
RAW it looks pretty clear that Orks Is Never Beaten stratagem doesn't care about what happened before. It simply allows a character to fight (or shoot) when he dies, regardless of what happened before. In fact it says: "as if it were your shooting or fighting phase"; RAW there's nothing more to that.
Eventually it will be worded differently in the upcoming codex to match the current trend, to avoid fighting twice, like the SM stratagem. In fact OIDDDD explicity says that the model can't fight twice, which isn't the case for the ork strategem so for now RAW the slain ork model can definitely fight twice in the same turn.
Blackie wrote: RAW it looks pretty clear that Orks Is Never Beaten stratagem doesn't care about what happened before. It simply allows a character to fight (or shoot) when he dies, regardless of what happened before. In fact it says: "as if it were your shooting or fighting phase"; RAW there's nothing more to that.
I agree that the ork character can fight or shoot in any phase when he is killed, except for the shooting and fight phase, if he already made some attacks. Because no unit can shoot twice in the same phase, and no unit can fight twice, in the same phase. This restriction is not removed by OINB.
"As if it were in the fighting phase" actually means that we're not in the ork fighting phase, that's why he can fight twice. It simpy resolves his attacks in the same order and with the same rules he would do in the fighting phase.
Second time he isn't fighting in his fighting phase, that's why the SM stratagem clarifies that a model can use it only if he hasn't fought before as GW don't want to make those kind of stratagems a fighting/shooting twice tool, but RAW they are. RAW second round of attacks doens't happen in the model's shooting or fighting phase. If a model is dead his shooting/fighting phase has already ended.
Same for shooting, although orks never care to use that stratagem for shooting.
Blackie wrote: "As if it were in the fighting phase" actually means that we're not in the ork fighting phase, that's why he can fight twice. It simpy resolves his attacks in the same order and with the same rules he would do in the fighting phase.
Not true. All rules from that phase still apply. If the ork character already has fought in his fight phase he cannot fight again. If he already shot in his shooting phase, he cannot shoot again.
OUT OF PHASE RULES
Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power outside of the normal turn sequence. If such a rule explicitly mentions to do so as if it were a different phase than the current one (e.g. ‘that unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase), then any rules that are normally used in that phase (in the example, this would be the Shooting phase) apply when that unit shoots.
The only exception to this are Stratagems; if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’).
p5freak wrote: That doesnt remove the restriction that a unit cannot fight twice in the same fight phase. OIDDDD has been changed to show that. It didnt say "has not already been selected to fight this phase" before. This clearly shows that a unit cannot fight twice, not even with a stratagem.
ONLY IN DEATH DOES DUTY END Use this Stratagem in the Fight phase, when an ADEPTUS ASTARTES CHARACTER model from your army that has not already been selected to fight this phase is destroyed. Do not remove that model from play - it can fight after the attacking model’s unit has finished making attacks. After resolving the destroyed model’s attacks, it is then removed.
the only thing it shows is that THAT stratagem has been changed, but death frenzy for tyranids and Orks is never beaten for orks has not been changed.
RAW they can fight twice. Sure the stratagem will probably be changed to not allow this in the future when the new codex drops, but as it stands right now, its possible. For Tyranids too.
p5freak wrote: Another restriction is that no unit can fight twice in the same fight phase.
Please quote the rule explicitly stating that. If you can, case closed, you're right. If you can't, you're wrong.
I already did, but here it is again, just for you :
FIGHT PHASE
No unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase.
Wow, taken out of context, nice.
According to that logic, an archon, chaos marines and many other similarly worded rules can't fight twice, either. Since they clearly can fight twice, that Interpretation is wrong.
This text is clearly talking about which units are eligible to fight, which would only matter if the warboss somehow managed to still be alive after having used the stratagem.
Do you ever look around and think "why does everyone around me read it one way, except for myself"?
That includes various tournament organisers and such who have a lot of practice in deciphering RAI.
Or when you do, do you just conclude "everyone is an idiot except for me"?
kirotheavenger wrote: Do you ever look around and think "why does everyone around me read it one way, except for myself"?
That includes various tournament organisers and such who have a lot of practice in deciphering RAI.
Or when you do, do you just conclude "everyone is an idiot except for me"?
im unsure who you are refering to.
Last time i checked this ability being used at a tournement the organizers allowed it to be used after a warboss on warbike had died after his charge
I don't care what TOs say. It's house rules, and has nothing to do with RAW. No one knows RAI, except the GW rules team.
If a special rule says a unit fights twice, or again, then that overrides the general restriction that a unit can't fight twice in the fight phase.
p5freak wrote: I don't care what TOs say. It's house rules, and has nothing to do with RAW. No one knows RAI, except the GW rules team. If a special rule says a unit fights twice, or again, then that overrides the general restriction that a unit can't fight twice in the fight phase.
UNLESS! it uses specific stratagems, like orks is never beaten. Or get stuck in ladz.
You say no know knows rules as intended, then why would you link us the space marine equivilent that has been updated? you clearly meant for us to go: oh yea that ones been updated clearly death frenzy and orks is never beaten will too, so we should not fight twice.
If that wasnt the case why even bother linking that stratagem.
RAW no unit can fight twice unless special rules permit it to do so, including stratagems.
like the stratagem we talk about. You dont interpret as being able to attack twice, but most others do.
It's also noteworthy that the GW rules team saw every 40k tournament playing that "house rule" and left it.
They FAQed other stuff like Leman Russes standing stationary, but this rule they left. One can reasonably conclude that, unlike the Leman Russ, the rules team did not see issue with how this rule was being used.
p5freak wrote: I don't care what TOs say. It's house rules, and has nothing to do with RAW. No one knows RAI, except the GW rules team.
If a special rule says a unit fights twice, or again, then that overrides the general restriction that a unit can't fight twice in the fight phase.
UNLESS! it uses specific stratagems, like orks is never beaten. Or get stuck in ladz.
You say no know knows rules as intended, then why would you link us the space marine equivilent that has been updated? you clearly meant for us to go: oh yea that ones been updated clearly death frenzy and orks is never beaten will too, so we should not fight twice.
If that wasnt the case why even bother linking that stratagem.
RAW no unit can fight twice unless special rules permit it to do so, including stratagems.
like the stratagem we talk about. You dont interpret as being able to attack twice, but most others do.
The stratagem says you can fight, but since it's the same turn you charged, wouldn't you be under the same restrictions you were earlier in the fight phase? The original example was charging and destroying a unit, then consolidating a second unit, which then gets a chance to attack you but you can't attack them since you declared a charge against a unit that wasn't them. Playing the strat to attack again, wouldn't you still be under the restriction that you couldh't attack the unit that you consolidated into since you didn't declare a charge against them but against someone else that turn?
EDIT: Orks is Never Beaten says you can either shoot or attack, so if you were in engagement range and had a pistol I suppose you could shoot that at them.
doctortom wrote: The stratagem says you can fight, but since it's the same turn you charged, wouldn't you be under the same restrictions you were earlier in the fight phase? The original example was charging and destroying a unit, then consolidating a second unit, which then gets a chance to attack you but you can't attack them since you declared a charge against a unit that wasn't them. Playing the strat to attack again, wouldn't you still be under the restriction that you couldh't attack the unit that you consolidated into since you didn't declare a charge against them but against someone else that turn?
EDIT: Orks is Never Beaten says you can either shoot or attack, so if you were in engagement range and had a pistol I suppose you could shoot that at them.
You are right, nothing gives you permission to ignore any of these restrictions. However, when you are using this stratagem in your turn, it's usually because something knocked you down that you failed to kill or that did a heroic intervention on you.
After all, it's not the point of this stratagem to run off to kill some completely uninvolved intercessors after you got your skull smashed in by the chaplain you were dueling.
doctortom wrote: The stratagem says you can fight, but since it's the same turn you charged, wouldn't you be under the same restrictions you were earlier in the fight phase? The original example was charging and destroying a unit, then consolidating a second unit, which then gets a chance to attack you but you can't attack them since you declared a charge against a unit that wasn't them. Playing the strat to attack again, wouldn't you still be under the restriction that you couldh't attack the unit that you consolidated into since you didn't declare a charge against them but against someone else that turn?
EDIT: Orks is Never Beaten says you can either shoot or attack, so if you were in engagement range and had a pistol I suppose you could shoot that at them.
You are right, nothing gives you permission to ignore any of these restrictions. However, when you are using this stratagem in your turn, it's usually because something knocked you down that you failed to kill or that did a heroic intervention on you.
After all, it's not the point of this stratagem to run off to kill some completely uninvolved intercessors after you got your skull smashed in by the chaplain you were dueling.
That's what I thought. P5Freak was actually right in that the slain Ork couldn't fight (but could shoot a pistol) that second unit, but didn't have the reason right - it was because the unit charged someone else, killed them, then consolidated into something he didn't declare a charge against and got killed because they got free shots on him. If it wasn't a round that he charged though, he could attack when playing the stratagem.
P5Freak is partially correct if you go back to the start of his argument, Orks is never beaten would not allow you to attack a unit you had not charged (or that hadn't used heroic intervention) but is completely wrong in saying that an Ork character that had already fought couldn't fight again as the strategem explicitly gives permission to fight.
well. obviously i mean, i feel like that was already covered.
You cant charge in, attack something, consolidate in to something else and then for what ever reason attack that which you consolidated in to, no matter what stratagem you use.
That was my first question of course and it was answered.
But alas, i would say he is wrong in saying you cant in general attack twice, using the orks is never beaten stratagem. I dont feel like the long discussion afterwards were ever about whether you could use the stratagem to attack a dude you hadnt charged. It was about whether you could, in general just attack twice.
doctortom wrote: The stratagem says you can fight, but since it's the same turn you charged, wouldn't you be under the same restrictions you were earlier in the fight phase? The original example was charging and destroying a unit, then consolidating a second unit, which then gets a chance to attack you but you can't attack them since you declared a charge against a unit that wasn't them. Playing the strat to attack again, wouldn't you still be under the restriction that you couldh't attack the unit that you consolidated into since you didn't declare a charge against them but against someone else that turn?
EDIT: Orks is Never Beaten says you can either shoot or attack, so if you were in engagement range and had a pistol I suppose you could shoot that at them.
You are right, nothing gives you permission to ignore any of these restrictions. However, when you are using this stratagem in your turn, it's usually because something knocked you down that you failed to kill or that did a heroic intervention on you.
After all, it's not the point of this stratagem to run off to kill some completely uninvolved intercessors after you got your skull smashed in by the chaplain you were dueling.
That's what I thought. P5Freak was actually right in that the slain Ork couldn't fight (but could shoot a pistol) that second unit, but didn't have the reason right - it was because the unit charged someone else, killed them, then consolidated into something he didn't declare a charge against and got killed because they got free shots on him. If it wasn't a round that he charged though, he could attack when playing the stratagem.
He made the same argument as the first part of his response and no one really contested that. He just was completely wrong on the second part, which was the reason why this thread went to two pages at all.
I am not wrong about OINB. Simply stating that unit can immediately shoot or fight doesnt let it fight or shoot again, the restriction that a unit cannot fight twice, or shoot twice is still there.
p5freak wrote: I am not wrong about OINB. Simply stating that unit can immediately shoot or fight doesnt let it fight or shoot again, the restriction that a unit cannot fight twice, or shoot twice is still there.
A single model attacking does not = the unit attacking.
OINB does not let the unit fight again, it specifically lets a model fight.
That's a spurious point to make when the model is part of the unit, when it's the entire unit you're really reaching.
The only basis for this claim DeathReaper is a section that explains what those effects do, never does it state that a unit is not responsible for its models.
kirotheavenger wrote: That's a spurious point to make when the model is part of the unit, when it's the entire unit you're really reaching.
The only basis for this claim DeathReaper is a section that explains what those effects do, never does it state that a unit is not responsible for its models.
It is not false and no reaching needed.
Of course a model is part of a unit, every model is a part of a unit. The unit is not attacking. A model from the unit is making attacks because a Strat allowed him to do so. Specific trumps general and all that.
For the unit to attack, they would have to have a rule allowing them to do so.
For the rest of the models in the unit, yes.
But a model is part of a unit and thus you cannot select a model to shoot without also having selected their unit.
Is it any different from shooting a lascannon when all the bolters in the squad are out of range/LoS? In both cases certain rule(s) are preventing other models in the unit from shooting, but other models in the unit are also shooting.
kirotheavenger wrote: For the rest of the models in the unit, yes.
But a model is part of a unit and thus you cannot select a model to shoot without also having selected their unit.
Is it any different from shooting a lascannon when all the bolters in the squad are out of range/LoS? In both cases certain rule(s) are preventing other models in the unit from shooting, but other models in the unit are also shooting.
Good thing you are not selecting a unit to shoot.
The strat does not follow the normal fight phase sequence, so you never select the unit/model to attack.
With the "ORKS IS NEVER BEATEN" strat you do not select the unit at all. You simply use it "when an ORK CHARACTER model from your army is slain."
As for the shooting a lascannon scenario:
It is different because in the lascannon/bolters in the squad scenario, you select that unit to shoot.
The strat does not follow the normal fight phase sequence, so you never select the unit/model to attack.
Irrelevant. Units cannot make attacks, only models can. GW doesnt know the difference. When they say no unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase, they really should be saying no models in units can can fight more than once in the Fight phase. Technically no unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase is wrong.
The strat does not follow the normal fight phase sequence, so you never select the unit/model to attack.
Irrelevant. Units cannot make attacks, only models can. GW doesnt know the difference. When they say no unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase, they really should be saying no models in units can can fight more than once in the Fight phase. Technically no unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase is wrong.
Except they don't say that. And unless they do, your reading of the rules isn't supported.
The strat does not follow the normal fight phase sequence, so you never select the unit/model to attack.
Irrelevant. Units cannot make attacks, only models can. GW doesnt know the difference. When they say no unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase, they really should be saying no models in units can can fight more than once in the Fight phase. Technically no unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase is wrong.
the company that makes the rules dont know the difference? Who even cares. they make the rules, and what they should be saying and doing doesnt matter. Our way of reading in to this is supported by the fact that no FAQ has been released stating otherwise. And such moves as what we're discussing has been done at tournements and been allowed.
GW does look at the tournements after all.
The orks is never beaten rule as well as death frenzy for tyranids will probably change after the codex releases, but right now thats how they work, with being able to attack twice.
The orks is never beaten rule as well as death frenzy for tyranids will probably change after the codex releases, but right now thats how they work, with being able to attack twice.
They were never being able to attack twice with death frenzy or OINB, because the restriction is still there. No permission is given to fight a second time, or twice.
The orks is never beaten rule as well as death frenzy for tyranids will probably change after the codex releases, but right now thats how they work, with being able to attack twice.
They were never being able to attack twice with death frenzy or OINB, because the restriction is still there. No permission is given to fight a second time, or twice.
yet here we are and you're the only person advocating for that.
The orks is never beaten rule as well as death frenzy for tyranids will probably change after the codex releases, but right now thats how they work, with being able to attack twice.
They were never being able to attack twice with death frenzy or OINB, because the restriction is still there. No permission is given to fight a second time, or twice.
Units can not fight twice... "No unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase." (P 21 Left column, 2nd graph 1st sentence of the GW PDF rules)
The orks is never beaten rule as well as death frenzy for tyranids will probably change after the codex releases, but right now thats how they work, with being able to attack twice.
They were never being able to attack twice with death frenzy or OINB, because the restriction is still there. No permission is given to fight a second time, or twice.
The orks is never beaten rule as well as death frenzy for tyranids will probably change after the codex releases, but right now thats how they work, with being able to attack twice.
They were never being able to attack twice with death frenzy or OINB, because the restriction is still there. No permission is given to fight a second time, or twice. The unit is t fighting twice, a model is.
are you arguing against me or for me? because you are arguing that the model can attack twice in a single turn, while at the same time saying they cant because of some unit/model bla bla stuff.
Im not interested in the terminologies here, you are able to charge in, hit something, get hit, die, use stratagem, hit once again, and then die for good. In my book thats you hitting twice. Whether you want to call it something else but argue essentially for the same thing as im saying, is.. well.. i mean sure
I guess technically nosferatu and DeathReaper are correct, but I also don't think it matters.
The way I see it: 1) There is no permission to fight for the dying character if he is killed in - say - the psychic phase. 2) The stratagem gives permission to fight. 3) The dying character does not have permission to fight after being selected to fight in the same phase. 4) As established in 2), the stratagem gives permission to fight.
That said, the thread should just be abandoned. p5freak has and will never admit being wrong once he has settled on an interpretation, no matter how absurd. All the arguments are in this thread and anyone with half a brain can see what is going on.
Actually after going back and fully reading the strategem, I hate saying this because I've never seen it happen before, but I think deathreaper is actually *painful grimace* right......
OINB doesn't say you can immediately fight, it says
"you can immediately fight as if it were the fight phase"
so that fight would be subject to all the rules of the fight phase. If it is already the fight phase and you have already fought then you can't fight again without something that specifically enumerates a second fight.
Rule book pg 228 "No unit can fight more than once in the fight phase"
Ork Codex pg 127... when an Ork Character is slain ....blah blah.... "That model is not removed but can immediately shoot as if shooting phase, or fight as if fight phase".
RAW that model can fight even if it already fought. I suppose it could shoot if it was killed in the psychic phase.
Rule book pg 228 "No unit can fight more than once in the fight phase"
Ork Codex pg 127... when an Ork Character is slain ....blah blah.... "That model is not removed but can immediately shoot as if shooting phase, or fight as if fight phase".
RAW that model can fight even if it already fought. I suppose it could shoot if it was killed in the psychic phase.
as i understand it, if you are in close combat with someone and dies to psychic powers, you can also fight before you die.
Aftersong wrote: Actually after going back and fully reading the strategem, I hate saying this because I've never seen it happen before, but I think deathreaper is actually *painful grimace* right......
OINB doesn't say you can immediately fight, it says
"you can immediately fight as if it were the fight phase"
so that fight would be subject to all the rules of the fight phase. If it is already the fight phase and you have already fought then you can't fight again without something that specifically enumerates a second fight.
"You can immediately fight as if it were the fight phase" means you can fight following the steps described in the fight phase section. Easy as that. Not that the model in going back to the fight phase again.
He can definitely fight twice, and that's the reason why GW wrote the SM equivalent stratagem in a way that's not possible to fight twice.
Aftersong wrote: Actually after going back and fully reading the strategem, I hate saying this because I've never seen it happen before, but I think deathreaper is actually *painful grimace* right......
OINB doesn't say you can immediately fight, it says
"you can immediately fight as if it were the fight phase"
so that fight would be subject to all the rules of the fight phase. If it is already the fight phase and you have already fought then you can't fight again without something that specifically enumerates a second fight.
"You can immediately fight as if it were the fight phase" means you can fight following the steps described in the fight phase section. Easy as that. Not that the model in going back to the fight phase again.
He can definitely fight twice, and that's the reason why GW wrote the SM equivalent stratagem in a way that's not possible to fight twice.
OK lets fight following the steps described in the fight phase section.
Step 1: Select an eligible unit to fight.
Step 2: There is no step 2 because you don't have an eligible unit to select because your Ork character has already fought during this fight phase and since they haven't been specifically given the ability to fight twice your strategem ends having done nothing.
Aftersong wrote: Actually after going back and fully reading the strategem, I hate saying this because I've never seen it happen before, but I think deathreaper is actually *painful grimace* right......
OINB doesn't say you can immediately fight, it says
"you can immediately fight as if it were the fight phase"
so that fight would be subject to all the rules of the fight phase. If it is already the fight phase and you have already fought then you can't fight again without something that specifically enumerates a second fight.
"You can immediately fight as if it were the fight phase" means you can fight following the steps described in the fight phase section. Easy as that. Not that the model in going back to the fight phase again.
He can definitely fight twice, and that's the reason why GW wrote the SM equivalent stratagem in a way that's not possible to fight twice.
OK lets fight following the steps described in the fight phase section.
Step 1: Select an eligible unit to fight.
Step 2: There is no step 2 because you don't have an eligible unit to select because your Ork character has already fought during this fight phase and since they haven't been specifically given the ability to fight twice your strategem ends having done nothing.
The strat gives permission to the model to fight, not a unit. The restriction you cite is on a unit. The model can fight because it's given specific permission to fight.
Also, remember that the strat lets the model fight or shoot. If they had not wanted it to fight if it had fought already, they would have included a statement preventing it. Given the amount of time the codex had been out, there's been plenty of time for them to have FAQ'd it if it was meant to be read the way you are reading it.
For the outliers who don't think the Orc character can fight twice... .... in a way its not
Immediately fight as if it were the fight phase... which means its similiar to the actual fight phase, but its a different one, you probably can't even use other fight phase stratagems because its not THE fight phase, its just treated as if it were A fight phase.
Kinda like you take a road home, but the next day you take a different road home... its still a road but a different one. I still have to follow the speed limit or its speed limit, still need to drive on the correct side of the road, signal if I change lanes... all that. Its a different road. And this is treated like a different fight phase.
Sazzlefrats wrote: For the outliers who don't think the Orc character can fight twice... .... in a way its not
Immediately fight as if it were the fight phase... which means its similiar to the actual fight phase, but its a different one, you probably can't even use other fight phase stratagems because its not THE fight phase, its just treated as if it were A fight phase.
Kinda like you take a road home, but the next day you take a different road home... its still a road but a different one. I still have to follow the speed limit or its speed limit, still need to drive on the correct side of the road, signal if I change lanes... all that. Its a different road. And this is treated like a different fight phase.
I already quoted this :
OUT OF PHASE RULES
Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power outside of the normal turn sequence. If such a rule explicitly mentions to do so as if it were a different phase than the current one (e.g. ‘that unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase), then any rules that are normally used in that phase (in the example, this would be the Shooting phase) apply when that unit shoots.
The only exception to this are Stratagems; if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’).
If the character already fought in the fight phase the restriction that it cannot fight twice still applies in the "as if" fight phase.
Sazzlefrats wrote: For the outliers who don't think the Orc character can fight twice... .... in a way its not
Immediately fight as if it were the fight phase... which means its similiar to the actual fight phase, but its a different one, you probably can't even use other fight phase stratagems because its not THE fight phase, its just treated as if it were A fight phase.
Kinda like you take a road home, but the next day you take a different road home... its still a road but a different one. I still have to follow the speed limit or its speed limit, still need to drive on the correct side of the road, signal if I change lanes... all that. Its a different road. And this is treated like a different fight phase.
I already quoted this :
OUT OF PHASE RULES
Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power outside of the normal turn sequence. If such a rule explicitly mentions to do so as if it were a different phase than the current one (e.g. ‘that unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase), then any rules that are normally used in that phase (in the example, this would be the Shooting phase) apply when that unit shoots.
The only exception to this are Stratagems; if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’).
If the character already fought in the fight phase the restriction that it cannot fight twice still applies in the "as if" fight phase.
I was about to point to the Out of Phase rules.
As unsettling as some may find it to agree with p5freak, this is a valid RAW interpretation of the rules. The rules limit the number of times a model can fight in the fight phase, and OINB itself states that the model can immediately fight as if it is the fight phase.
OINB doesn't create a new fight phase happening in isolation from everything else that has already occurred. It happens within the fight phase, the fight phase rules must be followed.
That would mean, RAW, a model can only attack using OINB if it has not already attacked that turn.
Sazzlefrats wrote: For the outliers who don't think the Orc character can fight twice... .... in a way its not
Immediately fight as if it were the fight phase... which means its similiar to the actual fight phase, but its a different one, you probably can't even use other fight phase stratagems because its not THE fight phase, its just treated as if it were A fight phase.
Kinda like you take a road home, but the next day you take a different road home... its still a road but a different one. I still have to follow the speed limit or its speed limit, still need to drive on the correct side of the road, signal if I change lanes... all that. Its a different road. And this is treated like a different fight phase.
I already quoted this :
OUT OF PHASE RULES
Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power outside of the normal turn sequence. If such a rule explicitly mentions to do so as if it were a different phase than the current one (e.g. ‘that unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase), then any rules that are normally used in that phase (in the example, this would be the Shooting phase) apply when that unit shoots.
The only exception to this are Stratagems; if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’).
If the character already fought in the fight phase the restriction that it cannot fight twice still applies in the "as if" fight phase.
I was about to point to the Out of Phase rules.
As unsettling as some may find it to agree with p5freak, this is a valid RAW interpretation of the rules. The rules limit the number of times a model can fight in the fight phase, and OINB itself states that the model can immediately fight as if it is the fight phase.
OINB doesn't create a new fight phase happening in isolation from everything else that has already occurred. It happens within the fight phase, the fight phase rules must be followed.
That would mean, RAW, a model can only attack using OINB if it has not already attacked that turn.
Fortunately, that is 100% false.
That would mean, RAW, a model can only attack using OINB at any time, as it is not the same fight phase. Unless you have a citation stating it is the same fight phase.
Sazzlefrats wrote: For the outliers who don't think the Orc character can fight twice... .... in a way its not
Immediately fight as if it were the fight phase... which means its similiar to the actual fight phase, but its a different one, you probably can't even use other fight phase stratagems because its not THE fight phase, its just treated as if it were A fight phase.
Kinda like you take a road home, but the next day you take a different road home... its still a road but a different one. I still have to follow the speed limit or its speed limit, still need to drive on the correct side of the road, signal if I change lanes... all that. Its a different road. And this is treated like a different fight phase.
I already quoted this :
OUT OF PHASE RULES
Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power outside of the normal turn sequence. If such a rule explicitly mentions to do so as if it were a different phase than the current one (e.g. ‘that unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase), then any rules that are normally used in that phase (in the example, this would be the Shooting phase) apply when that unit shoots.
The only exception to this are Stratagems; if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’).
If the character already fought in the fight phase the restriction that it cannot fight twice still applies in the "as if" fight phase.
I was about to point to the Out of Phase rules.
As unsettling as some may find it to agree with p5freak, this is a valid RAW interpretation of the rules. The rules limit the number of times a model can fight in the fight phase, and OINB itself states that the model can immediately fight as if it is the fight phase.
OINB doesn't create a new fight phase happening in isolation from everything else that has already occurred. It happens within the fight phase, the fight phase rules must be followed.
That would mean, RAW, a model can only attack using OINB if it has not already attacked that turn.
Fortunately, that is 100% false.
That would mean, RAW, a model can only attack using OINB at any time, as it is not the same fight phase. Unless you have a citation stating it is the same fight phase.
Its not the same fight phase, but all rules of the actual fight phase still apply. Read the red marked part of my quote. If the ork character already fought in the fight phase he cannot fight again with OINB.
Yes the rules of the fight phase still apply, but the ork character could not have already fought in that fight phase, because there is nothing to say it is the same fight phase.
Unless you have a citation stating that it is the same fight phase. (Units can fight in several fight phases, unless you are claiming that units one get one attack all game if they can not fight in different fight phases...)
Once you use the stratagem, a separate micro Fight Phase is created and indented within whatever phase it is (psychic, shooting, fight).
So, you appear to have fight twice, but in fact, by RAW, you fought once in a fight phase, and once again in an additional fight phase created by the stratagem.
It's not rocket science and it shouldn't require so much discussions.
He can definitely fight twice, and that's the reason why GW wrote the SM equivalent stratagem in a way that's not possible to fight twice.
GW wrote the SM equivalent to show that its not possible to fight twice, unless you get permission to do so.
GW wrote the SM equivalent to eliminate the chance of fighting under those circumstances, as the old wording definitely allowed it. And as long as the stratagem isn't re-worded like the SM ones old rules are still in play, like all the other rules included in 8th edition codexes.
The greentide stratagem will likely disappear and orks will get +1T but until now boyz can respawn and orks are T4, as the 8th edition codex is the official ork set of rules at the moment. And it included a stratagem that allows a character to fight if it dies, even if he has already fought in that turn.
Welcome to YMDC... if you trigger one of the people who regularly get rules wrong but still never go back on their opinion no matter the other side's arguments, this always goes on until a mod locks the thread. Bonus points for triggering two of them with opposing views.
Some of them have been doing this for years and multiple editions, but the mods probably neither have the time nor the patience to change anything about it.
DeathReaper wrote: Yes the rules of the fight phase still apply, but the ork character could not have already fought in that fight phase, because there is nothing to say it is the same fight phase.
Unless you have a citation stating that it is the same fight phase. (Units can fight in several fight phases, unless you are claiming that units one get one attack all game if they can not fight in different fight phases...)
Page and Graph please.
Oh, you with the Page and Graph.
The BRB spells out the turn sequence clearly. There is no magic second fight phase, there is a fight phase.
Sazzlefrats wrote: For the outliers who don't think the Orc character can fight twice... .... in a way its not
Immediately fight as if it were the fight phase... which means its similiar to the actual fight phase, but its a different one, you probably can't even use other fight phase stratagems because its not THE fight phase, its just treated as if it were A fight phase.
Kinda like you take a road home, but the next day you take a different road home... its still a road but a different one. I still have to follow the speed limit or its speed limit, still need to drive on the correct side of the road, signal if I change lanes... all that. Its a different road. And this is treated like a different fight phase.
I already quoted this :
OUT OF PHASE RULES Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power outside of the normal turn sequence. If such a rule explicitly mentions to do so as if it were a different phase than the current one (e.g. ‘that unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase), then any rules that are normally used in that phase (in the example, this would be the Shooting phase) apply when that unit shoots.
The only exception to this are Stratagems; if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’).
If the character already fought in the fight phase the restriction that it cannot fight twice still applies in the "as if" fight phase.
I was about to point to the Out of Phase rules.
As unsettling as some may find it to agree with p5freak, this is a valid RAW interpretation of the rules. The rules limit the number of times a model can fight in the fight phase, and OINB itself states that the model can immediately fight as if it is the fight phase.
OINB doesn't create a new fight phase happening in isolation from everything else that has already occurred. It happens within the fight phase, the fight phase rules must be followed.
That would mean, RAW, a model can only attack using OINB if it has not already attacked that turn.
Fortunately, that is 100% false.
That would mean, RAW, a model can only attack using OINB at any time, as it is not the same fight phase. Unless you have a citation stating it is the same fight phase.
Does the Stratagem say OINB is limited to being used in the fight phase?
Usually, Stratagems state when they can only be used in a specific phase. See the comments about Out of Phase Rules.
DeathReaper wrote: Yes the rules of the fight phase still apply, but the ork character could not have already fought in that fight phase, because there is nothing to say it is the same fight phase.
Unless you have a citation stating that it is the same fight phase. (Units can fight in several fight phases, unless you are claiming that units one get one attack all game if they can not fight in different fight phases...)
Page and Graph please.
Oh, you with the Page and Graph.
It means give a citation that backs up your argument, you have not done so.
techsoldaten wrote: Does the Stratagem say OINB is limited to being used in the fight phase?
You should know it is not limited to being used in the fight phase. You should already know that it is used "when an ORK CHARACTER model from your army is slain."
techsoldaten wrote: Usually, Stratagems state when they can only be used in a specific phase.
Usually, sure, but that is not the case with OINB.
I know its not really a: oh they do it? means its true! but given everyone else is saying that Orks is Never beaten allows you to fight before you die, even though you've already hit before hand, and these dudes also say its possible.. well. I guess the case seem somewhat close at this point. You have like 1 person or so stating its not possible, and everyone else saying it is.
With current rules. Surely it will probably change (probably) but it hasnt changed yet.
Aftersong wrote: Actually after going back and fully reading the strategem, I hate saying this because I've never seen it happen before, but I think deathreaper is actually *painful grimace* right......
OINB doesn't say you can immediately fight, it says
"you can immediately fight as if it were the fight phase"
so that fight would be subject to all the rules of the fight phase. If it is already the fight phase and you have already fought then you can't fight again without something that specifically enumerates a second fight.
"You can immediately fight as if it were the fight phase" means you can fight following the steps described in the fight phase section. Easy as that. Not that the model in going back to the fight phase again.
He can definitely fight twice, and that's the reason why GW wrote the SM equivalent stratagem in a way that's not possible to fight twice.
OK lets fight following the steps described in the fight phase section.
Step 1: Select an eligible unit to fight.
Step 2: There is no step 2 because you don't have an eligible unit to select because your Ork character has already fought during this fight phase and since they haven't been specifically given the ability to fight twice your strategem ends having done nothing.
The strat gives permission to the model to fight, not a unit. The restriction you cite is on a unit. The model can fight because it's given specific permission to fight.
Also, remember that the strat lets the model fight or shoot. If they had not wanted it to fight if it had fought already, they would have included a statement preventing it. Given the amount of time the codex had been out, there's been plenty of time for them to have FAQ'd it if it was meant to be read the way you are reading it.
That still doesn't mean you get to ignore fight phase sequencing, The strat gives a MODEL permission to fight, but the fight phase doesn't give MODELS the ability to fight, so this means that to satisfy both the strategem targeting and the fight phase rules you have to select a UNIT that only consists of the MODEL that was targeted by the strategem. Sequencing goes as follows
1. Ork Character is slain.
2. OINB is used selecting the aformentioned slain character
3. Begin fight phase sequence by selecting an eligible unit. In this case the only eligible unit would be one that contains the slain model as only that model can fight, and you can only select that unit if it hasn't already
fought this phase.
4. Underpants gnomes
5. ???
6.Profit
4.
nosferatu1001 wrote: You don't get permission to select a unit, so that restriction you've made up is not applicable.
You specifically must select a unit because OINB tells you to fight as if it were the fight phase, open your rulebook and follow the rules for fighting in the fight phase. The first thing it tells you to do is select a UNIT. In order to satisfy the strategem (because it tells you to fight as if it were the fight phase) you have to select a unit, that unit must contain the slain model, you can't select the unit if it has already fought this turn.
Units cannot fight twice in the same fight phase, or in an 'as if" fight phase. When a model from a one model unit fights again, the unit fights again. Which is not allowed.
I like how half of this thread is people arguing the same result, but for completely different and mutually exclusive justifications.
I agree that you must still select a unit to fight, it's just that only that one model within the unit has permission to attack.
Clearly selecting a "unit" does not require every model within that unit to attack, otherwise you would never be able to shoot a lascannon over 24" because the bolters would be out of range!
But, the specific instance of the strategem selecting the character overrules the general rule about fighting twice, especially since they're doing it "as if it were the fight phase".
If you're not selecting a unit to fight, what are you selecting then?
The first step of Fighting is selecting a unit, there is nothing about selecting a model instead.
nosferatu1001 wrote: You don't get permission to select a unit, so that restriction you've made up is not applicable.
You specifically must select a unit because OINB tells you to fight as if it were the fight phase, open your rulebook and follow the rules for fighting in the fight phase. The first thing it tells you to do is select a UNIT. In order to satisfy the strategem (because it tells you to fight as if it were the fight phase) you have to select a unit, that unit must contain the slain model, you can't select the unit if it has already fought this turn.
It's very very cut and dry.
It doesn't tell you to fight as if it's the same fight phase. You're only told it can fight as if it were the fight phase or shoot as if it were the shooting phase.
Also, by specifying the model fights as the fight phase, it bypasses the selection of a unit. Stratagems can bypass regular rules like that dependent on the wording. The wording on the strat does not say anything about selecting a unit, You are making an assumption when it's also cut and dry that the selecting of a unit is a step that has been bypassed, so therefore the restriction on the unit is also bypassed.
You never selects. Unit , because the strat does not give you permission to do so. Otherwise your argument would allow you to select ANY unit not the model that just died.
You start the fight sequence having selected the model that is fighting. You cannot select a unit, as the strat is more specific. Not sure why this is so tricky to understand.
kirotheavenger wrote: How does a model fight if not following the steps of Fighting?
You follow the steps, but replace any reference to 'unit' with 'model'.
Cool, where do the rules tell you to do that?
If you want to fire a lascannon at a tank which can't be seen by the rest of the squad or is out of range, what do you do?
When it tells you that the model is fighting and not the unit. Why do you keep insisting that the entire unit is fighting when the rule in question only says that the one model is fighting? Can you show us where the rules say one model equals the entire unit?
In order to attack with the model you must select the unit.
You're only allowed to fight with that one model within the unit, but you can't select a model without also selecting a unit.
When you shoot a lascannon at a tank, have you selected the unit or have you just selected the lascannon?
Except that's not what the strat says. It says the model fights. Where are you given permission to select a unit as well? Page and graph. Note specific is more important than general.
doctortom wrote: It doesn't tell you to fight as if it's the same fight phase. You're only told it can fight as if it were the fight phase or shoot as if it were the shooting phase.
Also, by specifying the model fights as the fight phase, it bypasses the selection of a unit. Stratagems can bypass regular rules like that dependent on the wording. The wording on the strat does not say anything about selecting a unit, You are making an assumption when it's also cut and dry that the selecting of a unit is a step that has been bypassed, so therefore the restriction on the unit is also bypassed.
You are looking at the rules too broadly here, You have to follow them explicitly exactly precisely as they are written, I agree that the Ork character should be able to fight twice. unfortunately i don't believe the rules were written properly to support that.
doctortom wrote: Stratagems can bypass regular rules like that dependent on the wording. The wording on the strat does not say anything about selecting a unit
You are completely correct about this, What the stratagem does say is to fight as if it were the fight phase, this tells us that we have to adhere to all the relevant rules concerning the fight phase and the first thing the fight phase rules tell us to do is select an eligible UNIT I can see how this seems like a conflict as the stratagem says model but the rulebook says unit, since the stratagem has already told us to follow the rulebook rules then we have to satisfy BOTH requirements in order to continue. In this case we have to select a UNIT that contains the MODEL targetted by OINB. Now the stratagem hasn't said create a new fight phase or create a separate fight phase so we remain in the current phase and all rules relevant to the current phase are still in effect. This means that when you go to select the UNIT which contains the MODEL if that UNIT has already fought in the current phase regardless of being told to fight as if it were the fight phase you cannot select an eligible UNIT because it has already been selected to fight in the current fight phase.
I know that this interpretation seems overly pedantic and as an Ork player who has been using OINB incorrectly to fight twice for some time now I am quite dissapointed to realize I have been using it wrong however it's not rules as makes sense it's not rules as we want them to be, it is rules as written and we have to follow them as such.
doctortom wrote: Stratagems can bypass regular rules like that dependent on the wording. The wording on the strat does not say anything about selecting a unit
You are completely correct about this, What the stratagem does say is to fight as if it were the fight phase, this tells us that we have to adhere to all the relevant rules concerning the fight phase and the first thing the fight phase rules tell us to do is select an eligible UNIT I can see how this seems like a conflict as the stratagem says model but the rulebook says unit, since the stratagem has already told us to follow the rulebook rules then we have to satisfy BOTH requirements in order to continue. In this case we have to select a UNIT that contains the MODEL targetted by OINB. Now the stratagem hasn't said create a new fight phase or create a separate fight phase so we remain in the current phase and all rules relevant to the current phase are still in effect. This means that when you go to select the UNIT which contains the MODEL if that UNIT has already fought in the current phase regardless of being told to fight as if it were the fight phase you cannot select an eligible UNIT because it has already been selected to fight in the current fight phase.
I know that this interpretation seems overly pedantic and as an Ork player who has been using OINB incorrectly to fight twice for some time now I am quite dissapointed to realize I have been using it wrong however it's not rules as makes sense it's not rules as we want them to be, it is rules as written and we have to follow them as such.
No, you don't have to satisfy both requirements in order to continue. You are told the model fights, but are never told to select a unit by the stratagem. You are selecting only a model.
And, it says to fight as if it is the fight phase or shoot as if it was the shooting phase, then remove the model after it has done that. You are in an "as if" for it, so it's irrelevant what phase it is in - you are in the "as if" phase of fighting or shooting. Note that the stratagem does not say to treat the current shooting or fight phase as the same one for the model, so it is still the model - not the unit - doing something "as if".
You need to provide a citation where the strat still treats it as the same fight phase when going into the "fight/shoot as if it is was the fight/shooting phase".
are people actually using different arguments or are people just repeating what they've previously said?
This thread is pointless at this point. the stratagem works for a character being able to fight before he dies, even if he fought earlier, regardless of whether you like it or not. Also regardless of whether or not its going to remain like that in the future.
It says you fight immediately, so immediately i shall fight.
The same people that think this doesnt work, are the same people arguing that Bomb squigs dont get dakka dakka, but they do. Both dakka dakka and this stratagem specifically mentions that it happens immediately.
Beardedragon wrote: are people actually using different arguments or are people just repeating what they've previously said?
This thread is pointless at this point. the stratagem works for a character being able to fight before he dies, even if he fought earlier, regardless of whether you like it or not. Also regardless of whether or not its going to remain like that in the future.
It says you fight immediately, so immediately i shall fight.
The same people that think this doesnt work, are the same people arguing that Bomb squigs dont get dakka dakka, but they do. Both dakka dakka and this stratagem specifically mentions that it happens immediately.
I see an argument that might be new, but its based on a false premise that selecting a model means you are also selecting a unit. This is not true because RAW... nothing relevant to this thread says to do that.
Beardedragon wrote: are people actually using different arguments or are people just repeating what they've previously said?
This thread is pointless at this point. the stratagem works for a character being able to fight before he dies, even if he fought earlier, regardless of whether you like it or not. Also regardless of whether or not its going to remain like that in the future.
It says you fight immediately, so immediately i shall fight.
The same people that think this doesnt work, are the same people arguing that Bomb squigs dont get dakka dakka, but they do. Both dakka dakka and this stratagem specifically mentions that it happens immediately.
I see an argument that might be new, but its based on a false premise that selecting a model means you are also selecting a unit. This is not true because RAW... nothing relevant to this thread says to do that.
well that sort of proves my point. You saw "an" argument that might be new. a single argument. Meaning everyone else is just repeating what they said.
doctortom wrote: You need to provide a citation where the strat still treats it as the same fight phase when going into the "fight/shoot as if it is was the fight/shooting phase".
No you need to provide a citation that says you go into some kind of a different phase, unless you are specifically instructed to create or enter a new phase then all the rules for the current phase remain in effect.
doctortom wrote: You need to provide a citation where the strat still treats it as the same fight phase when going into the "fight/shoot as if it is was the fight/shooting phase".
No you need to provide a citation that says you go into some kind of a different phase, unless you are specifically instructed to create or enter a new phase then all the rules for the current phase remain in effect.
"Fight as it were the fight phase". That isn't the fight phase you're fighting in, as it could happen during any phase if your ork died while in engagement with an enemy. It is obvious that they have you handling this separately, then going back to whatever phase you were in (fight, shooting, psychic)
You haven't offered anything to refute it yet except the tired argument about the unit when we're told the model fights according to the strat, not a unit.
doctortom wrote: "Fight as it were the fight phase". That isn't the fight phase you're fighting in, as it could happen during any phase if your ork died while in engagement with an enemy. It is obvious that they have you handling this separately, then going back to whatever phase you were in (fight, shooting, psychic)
You haven't offered anything to refute it yet except the tired argument about the unit when we're told the model fights according to the strat, not a unit.
You are making my point for me, it says "Fight as if it were the fight phase" not "create an entirely new fight phase", not "if you are already in the fight phase making a separate one with new rules". OINB simply tells you to fight per the rules laid out in the fight phase, Thus you have to open your rulebook to the page where it outlines how to fight in the fight phase.
The first thing it will tell you to do is select a unit.
doctortom wrote: "Fight as it were the fight phase". That isn't the fight phase you're fighting in, as it could happen during any phase if your ork died while in engagement with an enemy. It is obvious that they have you handling this separately, then going back to whatever phase you were in (fight, shooting, psychic)
You haven't offered anything to refute it yet except the tired argument about the unit when we're told the model fights according to the strat, not a unit.
You are making my point for me, it says "Fight as if it were the fight phase" not "create an entirely new fight phase", not "if you are already in the fight phase making a separate one with new rules". OINB simply tells you to fight per the rules laid out in the fight phase, Thus you have to open your rulebook to the page where it outlines how to fight in the fight phase.
The first thing it will tell you to do is select a unit.
Cut and dry very simple.
The stratagem tells you the model fights, not a unit. So, it's telling you the model fights as if it's the fight phase. It's bypassed the
"select a unit" step you are insisting on.
It fights as if it's the fight phase (or shoot as if it's the shooting phase), but it's really ignoring whatver phase it actually is while you do the "as if".
doctortom wrote: "Fight as it were the fight phase". That isn't the fight phase you're fighting in, as it could happen during any phase if your ork died while in engagement with an enemy. It is obvious that they have you handling this separately, then going back to whatever phase you were in (fight, shooting, psychic)
You haven't offered anything to refute it yet except the tired argument about the unit when we're told the model fights according to the strat, not a unit.
You are making my point for me, it says "Fight as if it were the fight phase" not "create an entirely new fight phase", not "if you are already in the fight phase making a separate one with new rules". OINB simply tells you to fight per the rules laid out in the fight phase, Thus you have to open your rulebook to the page where it outlines how to fight in the fight phase.
The first thing it will tell you to do is select a unit.
Cut and dry very simple.
Actually no.... OINB it literally says "fight as if it were the fight phase". . And so what? The only restriction on fighting twice is for units, not a model, and definitely not a model that a stratagem (more specific than the general rulebook) is telling the model to fight. The rules for Models in the fight phase is exactly this (pg72 skip over to the 3rd grey box with 2 red squares please). 1. a model can fight if its in engagement range, 2. a model can fight if its within 1/2" of another model in the same unit that's in engagement range (this one probably will never apply, unless there is a multi-model character unit). Here's something interesting... A model does not pile-in before you fight or part of your fight... units have that rule..
So if there were 3 different fight again style stratagems, you could have the same model fight 4 times and not contradict the main rule book, (but I don't trust GW to write that clearly enough)
kirotheavenger wrote: I like how half of this thread is people arguing the same result, but for completely different and mutually exclusive justifications.
Indeed. It's a near-perfect encapsulation of how useless this subforum is (for actually getting to the bottom of rules disputes) and at the same time how vital it is (for keeping this dross safely contained in its own silo)...
Yes having not weighed in on this thread because it's pointless. It is clear it works as it has always worked, you can fight again as it gives you permission to do so. Yes in new codexs they word it in a way to prevent this this doesn't mean old codexs work that way.
A solution to that is everyone gets to vote on how helpful or harmful each post is... sort of like Reddit.
I never see anyone hardly argue the contrary point and/or riducule anyone else out there. You'd get like a dozen negative votes on a topic like this one, that would have only 5 posts to get to a decent answer.
