I was curious if the different marks of power armor allow SM to fire while prone... I asume scouts can and terminators cant.

But what about mark vi and vii and the different variants of primaris armor?

Do we have any official GW drawing or miniature image of a prone space marine?

If not, fan made material or conversions would be nice to see also.

Thanks in advance.

Why wouldn't they be able to?

 Gert wrote:
Why wouldn't they be able to?

The pauldrons do rather get in the way...

Yes. Yes they can.

The joy of the Black Carapace is it pretty much turns the armour in an extension of the body, so it barely encumbers the wearer.

The shoulder pads are auto-reactive, so capable of positioning themselves correctly. That could include extension type arm things to lift them clear when needs must.

Nit ideal due to the armor configuration, but perfectly possible except in Centurion and Terminator armor which are too cumbersome.

I dont understand what "auto reactive shoulder pads" means... Could you please explain in detail what that exactly means and give link to a reference?

We can assume that teoretically in lore SM are able to go prone, but are they ment to be able to fire, move and fight normally in such position?

Also do we have any graphic evidence (photo or drawing) that they can actually go prone?


Pd for Gert and Sgt Smudge: dont bother answering any of my posts, for sanity reasons I have send you to my ignore list, so I wont notice what you write.

It would probably just be like a normal human lying down in thick steel plate. Not exactly easy or comfortable but still possible. I'm not even sure the pads would get in the way unless the Astartes was lying face down or something weird.

Auto-reactive.

Essentially, they’re intended to protect the arm and lower head. As such, they’re kind of ablative armour - something there to take the first few hits without diminishing the overall protection.

If you look at the models and art, you might think they’d be bad for line of sight. They’re kinda high up, so a quick turn of the head might, on first appearance, to limit the wearer’s field of view.

This is where auto-reactive comes in. In easy words (I’m aware English isn’t your first language, so I’m trying to keep it simple for ease of communication), they react to the wearer.

When I look to my left, my left hand shoulder pad will lower itself to clear my line of sight. When I’m running, both shoulder pads will move themself to maximise movement.

Whilst it’s never said in canon that an Astartes can’t lie prone? There’s, more importantly, nothing to say they can’t lie prone.

The exact limits of power armour really aren’t that well defined. So the assumption I make is that the auto-reactive nature would take care of it - however daft it might look when modelled (such as spindly armatures lifting the pads clear. If there’s nothing to say that doesn’t occur, then we can safely assume it does)

So I assume al this auto reactiveness is related to the black carapace... Im wrong?

Men, this is an element of the lore badly translated to the miniatures and art... Those armor suits and specially the shoulder pads look rigid as hell.

Vatsetis wrote:
So I assume al this auto reactiveness is related to the black carapace... Im wrong?

Men, this is an element of the lore badly translated to the miniatures and art... Those armor suits and specially the shoulder pads look rigid as hell.

It's indeed related to the black carapace and the armor of Space Marines is designed to look like a rigid massive thing when standing up if only to make them more intimidating.

The best example of this was in the Spear of the Emperor limited edition lore book, which included a multi-page, layered cross section of Mk X armor. The Pauldrons are mounted on a series of points known as the Dynamic Pauldron Mounting Piles that can actively shift the Pauldrons both in relation to the wearer's movements and to incoming projectiles.

Canonically, they can go prone and remain at the ready for combat which implies the ability to fire while prone. The novelization of the first Dawn of War game has them prone for a spot or two in the book, namely when they discover the ground is saturated in blood.

As for Terminator armor and whatnot, its not entirely designed for prone positions, much less firing that way, but in a pinch I'd assume you can. You see and read about people doing crazy stuff in combat now and in history because the alternative is usually becoming very, very dead, so I'd say its probably plausable that even ye olde termies can drop on the ground and hose things if needed.

BTW is there any lore technical explanaition of how do the SM reduce their significant ground pressure (which will be a problem when ussing their high speed on soft ground)??

Vatsetis wrote:
BTW is there any lore technical explanaition of how do the SM reduce their significant ground pressure (which will be a problem when ussing their high speed on soft ground)??

the same way titans reduce their signfcigent ground pressure I would reckon? (in other words don't over think it)

Vatsetis wrote:
BTW is there any lore technical explanaition of how do the SM reduce their significant ground pressure (which will be a problem when ussing their high speed on soft ground)??

IIRC one of the RPGs said it was a form of Suspensor.

Yes, they can. In one of the HH anthology books outlining a squad of Salamanders ambushing a patrol of Night Lords bikers, I believe it explicitly refers to them observing them from a prone position.

But we have no actual official graphic depiction of prone marines, dont we?

Vatsetis wrote:Pd for Gert and Sgt Smudge: dont bother answering any of my posts, for sanity reasons I have send you to my ignore list, so I wont notice what you write.

I'm not answering this for you, I'm answering this anyone else in the thread who actually cares to receive an answer.

Vatsetis wrote:BTW is there any lore technical explanaition of how do the SM reduce their significant ground pressure (which will be a problem when ussing their high speed on soft ground)??

As BrianDavion says:

BrianDavion wrote:the same way titans reduce their signfcigent ground pressure I would reckon? (in other words don't over think it)

Nearly every walker in 40k (and in media in general) is generally impractical, unsuitable, and illogical. But it's fiction, looks cool, and so we handwave it.

If you want to complain about Space Marines, you would first need to address literally *every* entity larger than a human.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vatsetis wrote:
But we have no actual official graphic depiction of prone marines, dont we?

We don't have any graphic depictions of a Space Marine doing picking flowers, but it can assumed that they can.

However, unlike picking flowers, we *do* have written proof they can, in the Horus Heresy books.

The aim of this post is not polemistic, I just wanted to better understand how SM actually move.

SM arent neither giant robots like Titans (or even Dreadnoughts) nor warp deamons...they are ment to be infantry, so its sort of interesting to understand which are their capabilities as an infantry unit.

Vatsetis wrote:
BTW is there any lore technical explanaition of how do the SM reduce their significant ground pressure (which will be a problem when ussing their high speed on soft ground)??

Is the approximate weight of a power armoured Marine known? They have very wide feet with a pretty large surface area, so the ground pressure may not be all that high to be honest. They can probably go anywhere that can take the weight of, say, a large bull or draught horse (both of which can weigh over a ton and have much narrower feet).

 Haighus wrote:
Is the approximate weight of a power armoured Marine known?

Nothing accurate. They're described as being heavy enough to leave footprints in the ornamental floor of a Governors' Palace, and can reduce a human to red mist if they run straight at them.

From Age of Darkness, a Heresy novel.

Transhuman dread. Aximand had heard iterators talk of the condition. He’d heard descriptions of it from regular Army officers too. The sight of an Adeptus Astartes was one thing: taller and broader than a man could ever be, armoured like a demigod. The singularity of purpose was self-evident. An Adeptus Astartes was designed to fight and kill anything that didn’t annihilate it first. If you saw an Adeptus Astartes, you knew you were in trouble. The appearance alone cowed you with fear.

But to see one move. Apparently that was the real thing. Nothing human-shaped should be so fast, so lithe, so powerful, especially not anything in excess of two metres tall and carrying more armour than four normal men could lift. The sight of an Adeptus Astartes was one thing, but the moving fact of one was quite another. The psychologists called it transhuman dread. It froze a man, stuck him to the ground, caused his mind to lock up, made him lose control of bladder and bowel. Something huge and warlike gave pause: something huge and warlike and moving with the speed of a striking snake, that was when you knew that gods moved amongst men, and that there existed a scale of strength and speed beyond anything mortal, and that you were about to die and, if you were really lucking, there might be just enough time to piss yourself first.

This should give a clear idea of just how little the power armour hinders an Astartes.

Because it’s not just battle plate, such as plate or flak body armour.

Each version of Power Armour includes its own “skeleton”, and fibre muscles. This, couple with the black carapace makes it an extension of the Astartes’ body. Taken altogether, it adds no strain to the muscles.

So yeah, they probably would sink into proper gloopy mud. But when it comes to moving, you’ve the Astartes own strength, combined with that granted by the armour itself.

And as noted, the boots are quite wide, adding further assistance as the weight is better distributed, akin to snow shows.

For sake of completeness? Astartes Power Armour is superior to other forces thanks to the Black Carapace. That organ thing creates a direct neural interface, allowing the suit to react as if it’s part of the wearers own body. So if you want to take a step, the suit moves with you, as opposed to non-black carapace linked Power Armour, where it would be reacting to the movement.

Sure it sounds like a small difference, but a difference all the same. Especially with an Astartes incredible reaction time.

That "transhuman dread" looks very similar to the "tank terror" that early tanks inspired on 1916-1921 infantry men.

It was quickly overcome when the tank vulberabilities became apparent and infantry learn how to deal with this new weapon system.

That paragrah of Age of Darkness seems very subjective in its tone. You cannot use that as reliable source for SM actual mobility... Only that they look scary and unnatural when moving.

Comparing an SM movement capabilities to that of a horse seems adecuate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5d_BuI-KbA

A passage, which describes an Astartes, in full power armour, striking at the speed of a snake isn’t a reliable source for Astartes mobility?

K.

Well it seems a piece on writting specifically design to reinforce the fear factor of the Marines.

https://writingcommons.org/article/news-or-opinion/

It's a concept that is regularly explored in 40k fiction so I'm not sure how a piece of 40k fiction specifically explaining how an Astartes moves is a bad reference. There aren't bloody academic papers on this Vatsetis.

You seem to have it in your head that because of their not inconsiderable weight, Astartes must be lumbering lummoxes.

Yet that is not what the background tells us. Indeed, it’s what makes them such effective Terror Troops.

Everything about them is crafted to elicit terror in their foe.

The speed they move at. The protection granted by their armour. Their standard arms turning your mates into fine red mists. Their chainswords tearing bodies into wet, chunky gobbets. The fact they can fight for days on end, without rest or respite.

Even if you manage to do damage, they just don’t care. Blow their arm off, and they keep on fighting. Their wounds clot before your eyes, and it slows them not one jot. If their gun runs out of ammo, or they’re otherwise disarmed? They’re still perfectly capable of putting their fist straight through you.

Running away, eh? Good luck with that. They can run faster and longer than you can. They can also track your scent (not a uniquely Space Wolf trait. They just have a more pronounced ability)

Barricade the door? To quote Rick O’Connell? Honey, whatcha doing? These guys don’t use doors.

There is no aspect of Astartes at war that is not utterly terrifying.

Even not in a combat scenario an encounter with an Astartes would shake someone to their core.
The Apocalypse tie-in novel shows three Astartes (an Imperial Fist Lt, a White Scar Khan, and a Raven Guard Captain) interacting with various high-ranking mortals at a "party". The Fist wears a specially made uniform, the Khan wears a form of tribal dress, and the Raven wears formal robes. It's made clear how difficult the Fist finds interacting with mortals although he tries his hardest, the Khan likes to act friendly but always keeps them fearful and the Raven basically talks to no one and pretends that he is surveying the room looking for targets.
Astartes know the influence they have on mortals with fear being the first and greatest emotion felt.

We also see similar in Nightbringer, the first Uriel Ventriss novel.

He single handedly quells a near-riot just by driving past in an open topped Grav carriage. Hundreds (possibly thousands? Been a while since I read it) cowed into submission just by sort of being in the vicinity.

Doesn’t address the crowd, let alone threaten it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You seem to have it in your head that because of their not inconsiderable weight, Astartes must be lumbering lummoxes.

Im just trying to better understand how SM work

Mad Doc you are really effective selling the "Astartes Dread"... You should probably ask for a work in BL if you are interested, Im sure some of their writters arent as passionate and effective as you are.

I don't think the ork would take a pay cut......

... He could put his talent to work on his spare time.

Vatsetis wrote:The aim of this post is not polemistic, I just wanted to better understand how SM actually move.

Space Marines move like how everything in this fictional universe moves - with fictional logic. It's as simple as that.

SM arent neither giant robots like Titans (or even Dreadnoughts) nor warp deamons...they are ment to be infantry, so its sort of interesting to understand which are their capabilities as an infantry unit.

It doesn't matter - Titans shouldn't be able to move, but I don't see you complaining. Ogryns, Bullgryns, Crisis Suits, Terminators, Orks - these things violate so many laws of biological motion of real life physics on their own accord. Therefore, we cannot apply real life logic to them. We can only use the logic that we are given in universe - and if you so want to, you can *criticise* that fictional logic, question it's necessity and why those aspects of handwavium are applied, but at the end of the day, every single claim you've made about Space Marines being inflexible, or immobile, or ineffective in combat has been resoundingly disproven by the lore of the setting.

Ultimately, the only things that matter are what the lore has presented - so if you want a better idea of what the lore presents, reading extracts of it would be great. However, we see below how you treat extracts of the lore...

Vatsetis wrote:That paragrah of Age of Darkness seems very subjective in its tone. You cannot use that as reliable source for SM actual mobility... Only that they look scary and unnatural when moving.

What is subjective about it? What part of it is any less reliable than any other source?
Or is this your way of trying to ignore evidence that disproves your beliefs?

Vatsetis wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You seem to have it in your head that because of their not inconsiderable weight, Astartes must be lumbering lummoxes.

Im just trying to better understand how SM work

Then reading what users post would be a good start, instead of saying how it's simply impossible how such a thing can be done, and that users are biased for pointing out how Space Marines work - ie, the same way everything in 40k works.

Spare time isn’t for working

I do a pretty stressful job, so the last thing I want to be doing on my own time is be sat in front of a computer typing away.

To be honest I’m just really passionate about the background - far more so than the actual game. It’s got serious depth beyond simply telling stories.

Astartes are fairly poorly represented in the game mechanics. That’s perhaps not the criticism it seems, as they’ve never really lived up to the background in terms of rules - except perhaps in Inquisitor, where they were mental hard.

And even in the novels, it’s fairly rare we see the true horror of fighting Astartes. Instead, it’s the descriptive background, and the odd short story where the real nitty gritty lives.

Much of my waffling comes from the descriptions of the various additional organs which make an Astartes an Astartes, and extrapolating what a being with all those perks would be capable of.

A particular short story which sticks in my mind comes from an old White Dwarf, probably around 20 years ago. Sadly I can’t be more specific than that. But it described Astartes taking out a renegade Imperial Guard command bunker. The most visceral bit is when an Astartes casually backhands a Guardsman, and just obliterated the guys head. No power fist. Just Power Armour.

When you factor in that ridiculous strength, and that Astartes just don’t tire? You see the horrific potential.

Take even a single Astartes, and let him loose in an enemy bunker complex. It’s going to be a tremendously one sided fight. Sure, security doors will slow him, but they won’t stop him. He can even comfortably conserve ammo for stronger defence points, because he’ll literally tear your human defenders limb from limb. And at a frankly staggering speed.

Sure, you might have 200 goon squad members. But you can bring them all to bear (bare? I can never remember) at the same time, because it’s a bunker complex.

You can only send so many against him at any one time. Meanwhile, you sit in the most secure area, watching him absolutely tear the arse out of anything you send at him. Think Luke’s star turn in The Mandalorian, but with buckets of gore, and the certainty it’s not going to stop when he gets to your front door.

Sure, if you’ve got some heavy weapons you might be able to kill him. But your men are going to be filling their trousers when they see him about his bloody work. That’s gonna do nothing for their aim and general discipline. Plus, you’d assuredly set it up at a junction of some kind. He’ll know that, or at least be able to predict it. So don’t think he’d do anything so mundane as stumble into your evil trap.

And that’s just one Astartes. Shame they don’t tend to strike alone. You’re up against a Demi-squad at absolute best. With their built in comms, they don’t need to stick together. They can split up and just tear through anything and everything you can throw at them.

It might take them a couple of days to get to you. But that’s a couple of days without stopping. A non-stop, inevitable onslaught of frankly mind boggling violence.

And they’d probably not be too fussed about taking out your cameras as they go. I mean, they could and they might. But they want you to know they’re coming. They want you to have constant, visual reminders of the charnel trail they’ve left in their wake.

No injured. No walking wounded. Nobody getting patched up. Just corpses. A gory reminder of your impotence, and coming doom.

So, have no one find yet any graphic evidence of SM fighting while prone?

Even fan made drawings or miniatures would be welcome.

Frankly I just want the SM not being as silly as the orks, which are the comic relief of the setting.

This depiction of Astartes being like Ben Afflecks Batmam seems very inspired, but Im not sure thats how a proper military unit is ment to work.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
PD: Doc, telling you to work for BL was not an actual propossal... It was just flattering.

Vatsetis wrote:So, have no one find yet any graphic evidence of SM fighting while prone?

Even fan made drawings or miniatures would be welcome.

There's written evidence.

I have yet to see any graphic evidence either of a Space Marine picking a flower, or writing something, but undoubtedly they are capable of it. Why is written evidence not enough? Can something only exist if it's drawn?

Frankly I just want the SM not being as silly as the orks, which are the comic relief of the setting.

Everything in 40k is silly. Sorry to break that to you, but this is setting where chainswords are considered viable weaponry.

This depiction of Astartes being like Ben Afflecks Batmam seems very inspired, but Im not sure thats how a proper military unit is ment to work.

Proper military units don't have to fight daemons and sentient fungi.

Vatsetis wrote:
BTW is there any lore technical explanaition of how do the SM reduce their significant ground pressure (which will be a problem when ussing their high speed on soft ground)??

So, a standard human has a ground pressure of 60-80kPa, according to wikipedia. Bear in mind this is not a human encumbered by military gear, who will have a higher pressure again. A 550kg horse has about 170kPa.

Having looked up Marine weights in armour, generally about 500-1000kg is the range (this is given in FFG Deathwatch core book, but seems fairly consistent). The upper end appears to be for heavier armour like MKIII too, and maybe Terminator armour (it is not clear).

A space marine armoured foot is considerably wider and larger than a human foot. I've estimated 30cm by 15cm (12" by 6") based on looking at them on models and art. My own foot is 9.5" by 4" for comparison (and isn't a big lozenge shape like power armour).

Going with the upper bound of 1000kg and that foot size, an armoured Marine standing on one leg would only have a ground pressure of ~220kPa (217.77), which is less than, say, a human in stilettos. A 500kg Marine would have 110kPa, less than double that of a human. I don't think this would at all cause issues in most terrain. Marshy terrain would be troublesome, but then it is for humans too.

Most buildings can probably tolerate a ton with that pressure fairly well too, most modern lifts can carry more than a ton up a building even!

Space Marine boot is gonna be way bigger than your estimate.

I’m 6’2”, 17 stone, and my feets are 11” long, 4.5” wide in my stinky socks.

My trainers? 13” long, 5” wide.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Space Marine boot is gonna be way bigger than your estimate.

I’m 6’2”, 17 stone, and my feets are 11” long, 4.5” wide in my stinky socks.

My trainers? 13” long, 5” wide.

Aye, and a space marine foot is going to be in an armored boot. My leather steel toes are 15×6, and I'm 6", 195#. An armored space marine boot would be a LOT bigger. Think Shaquille O'Neil in steel toes, but even BIGGER than that.

Thanks for that analysis Haigus BTW.

My old New Rocks were probably around 14” long thanks to their daft soles. Possibly longer.

This is a weird post. It feels like a brag, but it’s not a brag.

It was a conservative estimate for an upper bound Plus, I calculated based on a rectangle, not a lozenge, so the actual foot with that surface area would be bigger.

 Haighus wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
BTW is there any lore technical explanaition of how do the SM reduce their significant ground pressure (which will be a problem when ussing their high speed on soft ground)??

So, a standard human has a ground pressure of 60-80kPa, according to wikipedia. Bear in mind this is not a human encumbered by military gear, who will have a higher pressure again. A 550kg horse has about 170kPa.

Having looked up Marine weights in armour, generally about 500-1000kg is the range (this is given in FFG Deathwatch core book, but seems fairly consistent). The upper end appears to be for heavier armour like MKIII too, and maybe Terminator armour (it is not clear).

A space marine armoured foot is considerably wider and larger than a human foot. I've estimated 30cm by 15cm (12" by 6") based on looking at them on models and art. My own foot is 9.5" by 4" for comparison (and isn't a big lozenge shape like power armour).

Going with the upper bound of 1000kg and that foot size, an armoured Marine standing on one leg would only have a ground pressure of ~220kPa (217.77), which is less than, say, a human in stilettos. A 500kg Marine would have 110kPa, less than double that of a human. I don't think this would at all cause issues in most terrain. Marshy terrain would be troublesome, but then it is for humans too.

Most buildings can probably tolerate a ton with that pressure fairly well too, most modern lifts can carry more than a ton up a building even!

Nice post... The problem comes from the fact that SM dont work alone like Batman or the Punisher (who can team up with a sidekick or have a technical back up at most)... But rather operate as an actual military (in groups of 5/10 individuals as a minimum) and is that group deployment which will create difficulties in tight or swampy enviroments.

BTW... "Transhuman Dread" would only affect very few of the actual Astartes foes... Heretic Astartes wont get scared of themselves... Tyranids, Necrons or Daemons are beyond fear... Orks would find it challenging or funny rather than frightening... Eldars will find it laughable... Taus might be temporarily affected but the indoctrination in the ways of the Greater Good should be prevalent in the end... High end Imperial agencies are on par with Astartes or have seen much worse... So that basically reduces the scope of this terror to Gretchins, green Imperial Guards or Defence forces (suspected traitors) and perhaps some other weak background xeno forces... So in essence it only works on those that have grown hearing tales about the "Angels of Death" but never actually fight them... Hardly impressive as a terror tool.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
My old New Rocks were probably around 14” long thanks to their daft soles. Possibly longer.

This is a weird post. It feels like a brag, but it’s not a brag.

Nah. It's a good way to get a semi-accurate comparison. My feet are 10×4 barefoot, size 11 1/2 EEE, so steel toes add roughly 50% in both length and width. A quick Google search shows Shaq, who at 7" 1 and around 300# is close to a human Astartes equivalent, wears size 14, and has 16" long feet. So in armored boots that's about 24" long and ? wide.

How does that change your calculations Haigus?

Vatsetis wrote:
BTW... "Transhuman Dread" would only affect very few of the actual Astartes foes...

Let's break that down, shall we?

Heretic Astartes wont get scared of themselves...

The actual Astartes won't but the Cultists and Traitor Guard sure as hell will.

Tyranids, Necrons or Daemons are beyond fear...

Tyranids might be and most Necrons sure but Daemons? No, Daemons feel fear, especially the big ones.

Orks would find it challenging or funny rather than frightening...

That's not true. Orks might like a good scrap but they still break when things get bad. And seeing something do a headlong charge into your wall of guns and big sticks without a care in the world? Yeah, Orks feel fear.

Eldars will find it laughable...

Yes, I'm sure the citizen militia would be laughing at the 8-foot tall monster sprinting at them full force screaming obscenities about the Aeldari.

Taus might be temporarily affected but the indoctrination in the ways of the Greater Good should be prevalent in the end...

Not when you see the rest of your Cadre torn apart by massive armoured barbarians with chainsaws as combat weapons.

High end Imperial agencies are on par with Astartes or have seen much worse...

Hearing stories and seeing something in person are two very different experiences. Custodes might not react but an Inquisitor is still just a human and feel terror as much as any other human. Unless an individual has their basic instinct of survival removed, they're still going to be scared of a Space Marine.

So that basically reduces the scope of this terror to Gretchins, green Imperial Guards or Defence forces (suspected traitors) and perhaps some other weak background xeno forces...

There is not a single shred of evidence to support any of your claims here.

So in essence it only works on those that have grown hearing tales about the "Angels of Death" but never actually fight them... Hardly impressive as a terror tool.

So basically everyone within the Imperium then? Yeah, I'm not sure you actually know what you're talking about.

Vatsetis wrote:BTW... "Transhuman Dread" would only affect very few of the actual Astartes foes... Heretic Astartes wont get scared of themselves... Tyranids, Necrons or Daemons are beyond fear... Orks would find it challenging or funny rather than frightening... Eldars will find it laughable... Taus might be temporarily affected but the indoctrination in the ways of the Greater Good should be prevalent in the end... High end Imperial agencies are on par with Astartes or have seen much worse... So that basically reduces the scope of this terror to Gretchins, green Imperial Guards or Defence forces (suspected traitors) and perhaps some other weak background xeno forces... So in essence it only works on those that have grown hearing tales about the "Angels of Death" but never actually fight them... Hardly impressive as a terror tool.

Heretic Astartes, Tyranids, Necrons and Daemons, sure.

Orks are still very much capable of fear, and would likely be at least psychologically disturbed by it.
Eldar would find it *unnatural*, in the same way that we might find extreme acts of strength or power from animals unnaturally terrifying on a primal level - again, Eldar are a very proud race, but when the primitive savage humans are throwing their giant gene-modded apes at you who move just as fast as you, hit harder than you, and can shrug off your shuriken catapults, that'll put you off.
Tau "indoctrination" isn't that strong - they're still mortal, and Space Marines are still horrifying giants.
High end Imperial agencies might be fine, but they're still contending with that primal psychological *wrongness* of Astartes speed. It might not be fear, but an Inquisitor will still be thoroughly unnerved by Astartes speed.

So no, I still think, on a psychological level, transhuman dread is still effective against non-human threats, and even *if* it was just human threats, that still makes them an excellent tool in suppressing rebellions - as mentioned earlier, just the presence of Ventris on Pavonis was enough to quell the riots. That's some impressive crowd control there.

Im really going to roll my eyes to the idea that an Assasin or Inquisitor or a group of SOB are going to go into panic mode just because an squad of Astartes charge them... Wouldnt that make them useless against the CSM which they engage on a regular basis?

Frankly all this "astartes dread" myth looks more as the sort of campfire fright story that veteran guards men will tell the rookies to look cool and dangerous.

Even hopeless chaos cultist fighting together with Heretic Astartes will have no major psicological issues when engaging loyalist Astartes.

The novel Savage Scars - Imperium Crusade vs Tau. Yes, Transhuman dread is a thing to the Tau. When watching through the sensors of a stealth suit that ended on the business end of a chainsword even a few of the command staff safe in orbit shat themselves. The White Scar screaming incoherently helped a little.

Also a good novel to show the level of disdain Titans have when there is no suitable opponent around.

Vatsetis wrote:
Im really going to roll my eyes to the idea that an Assasin or Inquisitor or a group of SOB are going to go into panic mode just because an squad of Astartes charge them... Wouldnt that make them useless against the CSM which they engage on a regular basis?

No-one said panic.
Unnerved? Yes, absolutely. And yes, it absolutely would make CSM equally intimidating and prone to causing those kinds of "oh god how can that thing react so fast" responses that transhuman dread inspires.

That's why the best way to deal with CSM on the Imperium's side is to use forces that are resistant to transhuman dread - Assassins who have been so chemically and neurologically altered that they don't have a fear reflex, other Astartes, Sisters of Silence, due to their Blank aura, and Custodes, who are even faster.
Sisters of Battle would be *more* effective than guardsmen, but they're still mortal.
Inquisitors are a completely mixed bag. Some Inquisitors probably would be able to stare down a charging Astartes without succumbing to transhuman dread, but these are likely your big name ones, your Coteaz's and Solomon Lok's. Your standard Inquisitor rarely even sees the *battlefield*, let alone an Astartes. They are *political* beasts, not warleaders.

Frankly all this "astartes dread" myth looks more as the sort of campfire fright story that veteran guards men will tell the rookies to look cool and dangerous.

Riiiiight... did you actually *read* the extract where it mentions transhuman dread? Because you'd see that's precisely not what it is.

Honestly, it just looks like you're being wilfully ignorant now.

Even hopeless chaos cultist fighting together with Heretic Astartes will have no major psicological issues when engaging loyalist Astartes.

Suuuuuure - just like how guardsmen would never flee ever and suffer no psychological issues if they fought any kinds of xenos so long as there were loyalist Astartes there?

Is everyone in 40k just immune to morale effects now?

Vatsetis wrote:
Im really going to roll my eyes to the idea that an Assasin

Throne of Lies by Aaron Dembski Bowden has a Callidus hunted by a squad of Night Lords, she feels fear.

or Inquisitor

Inquisitors are all still human. You're mistaking people like Karamazov and Eisenhorn for common rank and file Inquisitors when they are very much the exception.

or a group of SOB

There is a limit to the amount of fear rabid zealotry will suppress. When CSM attacks SoB, the SoB don't go "pft this is nothing, I'm not afraid of them". They start to pray harder because they know how dangerous Astartes are.

are going to go into panic mode just because an squad of Astartes charge them...Wouldnt that make them useless against the CSM which they engage on a regular basis?

There is a difference between fear and panic. Panic is what you would expect from regular mortals fumbling their guns or being trapped in a state of shock. Fear slowly but surely eats away at your resolve and can lead to panic.

Frankly all this "astartes dread" myth looks more as the sort of campfire fright story that veteran guards men will tell the rookies to look cool and dangerous.

Except it's not because its a consistent feature of Space Marines in fiction.

Even hopeless chaos cultist fighting together with Heretic Astartes will have no major psicological issues when engaging loyalist Astartes.

Any evidence to support this?

umm the whole bit about astartes dread was from a (loyalist) trooper fighting astartes the first time. Yopu cite all these "things it won't impact" but remember, when the emperor made the space marines, who his opponents where...

at the time of the first founding the expected space marine opponents where: Ork empires, the odd eldar enclave, but by and large... MOSTLY HUMANS WHO WON'T BEND THE KNEE.

there where no tyranids, there where no necrons, there where no heretic astartes etc.

Besiudes the astartes dread passage was mostly brought up because you where questioning how fast Astartes moved. no one is saying in modern 40k marines are magicical troops that EVERYONE is afraid of (in fact I'd argue part of the reason for the IoM decline is because their crack elite troops AREN'T terrifying to so many of their foes)

Gert wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
Im really going to roll my eyes to the idea that an Assasin

Throne of Lies by Aaron Dembski Bowden has a Callidus hunted by a squad of Night Lords, she feels fear.

I'm willing to say that Assassins *generally* are resistant/immune - I think it's more that these are Night Lords specifically that does this one.

are going to go into panic mode just because an squad of Astartes charge them...Wouldnt that make them useless against the CSM which they engage on a regular basis?

There is a difference between fear and panic. Panic is what you would expect from regular mortals fumbling their guns or being trapped in a state of shock. Fear slowly but surely eats away at your resolve and can lead to panic.

Absolutely. *Dread* would definitely take a grip on any mortal combatant, in much the same way that we experience dread looking over a steep ledge, or at an uncontrollable flood or fire. You might not run, but you're certainly going to be affected on some level by it.

Even hopeless chaos cultist fighting together with Heretic Astartes will have no major psicological issues when engaging loyalist Astartes.

Any evidence to support this?

And remember, apparently it has to be *graphic* evidence!

It’s not a myth though, is it? It’s about as factual as anything can be in a fictional setting, let alone one as knowingly daft as 40K.

And as for Orks? Boss Poles often feature Astartes helmets for a reason. They’re recognised as a deadly foe, so displaying such a trophy is a statement of how ‘ard you are (unless you nicked it…)

Astartes are an excellent tool against Orks, because they’ll strike at the Warboss’ location to begin the collapse of the Waaagh!

Because as soon as the Orks are disrupted, you can start taking them out whilst they’re distracted. Hit hard enough, and the Waaagh! will lose all momentum.

This is best demonstrated in the admittedly Astartes free Ciaphas Cain novel. Now those are somewhat tongue in cheek in feel - but don’t play especially fast and loose with the background.

In essence, Cain accidentally winds up gatecrashing the Warboss’ camp, and duelling said Warboss. He contrives a win, which leads to the Nobz immediately scrapping out to become the new Warboss.

BrianDavion wrote:
no one is saying in modern 40k marines are magicical troops that EVERYONE is afraid of (in fact I'd argue part of the reason for the IoM decline is because their crack elite troops AREN'T terrifying to so many of their foes)

I would argue that Astartes are still terrifying there just aren't as many to do the terrorising and they aren't really conquering planets anymore so much as preventing their conquering. I did some quick maths and the total number of Astartes in their Legion days sits at around 2.2 million. Compare that to the assumed 1k Chapters there are now (assuming there are 1k and they all sit at around 1k-ish Astartes) then we're only looking at 1 million, which is a significant reduction. Add in the whole "Emperor's Angels" religious aspect which is used much more compared to the "Angels of Death" description then you have Astartes being viewed as heroic saviours rather than murder tanks in the view of the standard Imperial.

 Haighus wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
BTW is there any lore technical explanaition of how do the SM reduce their significant ground pressure (which will be a problem when ussing their high speed on soft ground)??

So, a standard human has a ground pressure of 60-80kPa, according to wikipedia. Bear in mind this is not a human encumbered by military gear, who will have a higher pressure again. A 550kg horse has about 170kPa.

Having looked up Marine weights in armour, generally about 500-1000kg is the range (this is given in FFG Deathwatch core book, but seems fairly consistent). The upper end appears to be for heavier armour like MKIII too, and maybe Terminator armour (it is not clear).

A space marine armoured foot is considerably wider and larger than a human foot. I've estimated 30cm by 15cm (12" by 6") based on looking at them on models and art. My own foot is 9.5" by 4" for comparison (and isn't a big lozenge shape like power armour).

Going with the upper bound of 1000kg and that foot size, an armoured Marine standing on one leg would only have a ground pressure of ~220kPa (217.77), which is less than, say, a human in stilettos. A 500kg Marine would have 110kPa, less than double that of a human. I don't think this would at all cause issues in most terrain. Marshy terrain would be troublesome, but then it is for humans too.

Most buildings can probably tolerate a ton with that pressure fairly well too, most modern lifts can carry more than a ton up a building even!

In essence on solid footing a Space Marine doesn't suffer at all, but in soft ground it gets exponentially bad. A flooded grass field would turn into a swamp for him and in an actual swamp it would be like being in quicksand. In most buildings except perhaps a slum or a ruined hellscape, he would be fine too.

Space Marines are indeed terrifying opponents to fight for any normal human soldiers, but, ironically, in a setting where everything is cranked up to 11, they are just slightly more scary then the average combatant. Ork Nobz, anything Tyranid, anything Necron, most Dark Eldar thing, almost anything daemon. Hell even your "standard guardsman" is a man or a woman who was born and raised to be a soldier and nothing else and then was trained by complete maniacs to be the best he or she could. A standard Cadian is basically so heavily trained and indoctrinated they would make a Navy SEAL look like an amateur (3 years of intensive training please, I had more than that before I became a frinkin' cadet).

Vatsetis wrote:
Im really going to roll my eyes to the idea that an Assasin or Inquisitor or a group of SOB are going to go into panic mode just because an squad of Astartes charge them... Wouldnt that make them useless against the CSM which they engage on a regular basis?

Frankly all this "astartes dread" myth looks more as the sort of campfire fright story that veteran guards men will tell the rookies to look cool and dangerous.

Even hopeless chaos cultist fighting together with Heretic Astartes will have no major psicological issues when engaging loyalist Astartes.

No one is engaging Heretic Astartes on a "regular basis". They're just as rare in the galaxy at large as loyalist Astartes. Your average SoB is used to fighting more human opponents, like Traitor Guard or cultists. An actual Heretic Astartes would be a rare sight, much less an actual full force of them.

Modern office buildings are designed for between 3 and 5 kN/sq.m. Plant areas allow for 7.5. 5kN is about 500kg, I don’t think marines could cluster closer than 1m, or really share the floor space with much else. Therefore marines would be able to move through modern buildings without overloading their floor systems unless they really start jumping up and down. They might have a problem with punching shear if they get excited.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, while marines may nit be able to raise their head due to the helmet interfering with their backpack and gorget, they have auto senses and weapon targeters, so they don’t really need to point their head in the direction they want to fire in.

BrianDavion wrote:
umm the whole bit about astartes dread was from a (loyalist) trooper fighting astartes the first time. Yopu cite all these "things it won't impact" but remember, when the emperor made the space marines, who his opponents where...

at the time of the first founding the expected space marine opponents where: Ork empires, the odd eldar enclave, but by and large... MOSTLY HUMANS WHO WON'T BEND THE KNEE.

there where no tyranids, there where no necrons, there where no heretic astartes etc.

Besiudes the astartes dread passage was mostly brought up because you where questioning how fast Astartes moved. no one is saying in modern 40k marines are magicical troops that EVERYONE is afraid of (in fact I'd argue part of the reason for the IoM decline is because their crack elite troops AREN'T terrifying to so many of their foes)

Thanks, this makes perfect sense.

Good to see Marines wont actually collapse a standard building floor just by moving arround.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
Im really going to roll my eyes to the idea that an Assasin or Inquisitor or a group of SOB are going to go into panic mode just because an squad of Astartes charge them... Wouldnt that make them useless against the CSM which they engage on a regular basis?

Frankly all this "astartes dread" myth looks more as the sort of campfire fright story that veteran guards men will tell the rookies to look cool and dangerous.

Even hopeless chaos cultist fighting together with Heretic Astartes will have no major psicological issues when engaging loyalist Astartes.

No one is engaging Heretic Astartes on a "regular basis". They're just as rare in the galaxy at large as loyalist Astartes. Your average SoB is used to fighting more human opponents, like Traitor Guard or cultists. An actual Heretic Astartes would be a rare sight, much less an actual full force of them.

This weird spot in the lore in which astartes (loyalist or heretic) have allegedly Superheroe level powers on an individual level but are so rare as too be considered a Myth in universe is annoying.

Space Marines arent Task Force X or the Avengers... They are a proper (and for the most part regular) military unit. Thats what you see when you open a codex...

... SoB as an organization are going to constantly engage with Chaos forces, including the CSM if they are in any meaningfull sector... Yes the novice its going to be impressed by this dread at first but they are backup by an organization that is resilient and resourceful, not just canon fodder for the CSM.

There are roughly 1,000,000 Imperial Astartes at large in the Galaxy.

The Galaxy is unfashionably huge. As in, us mere real mortals really can’t grasp it, because our brains have never experienced such a vast area.

There are billions of Imperial Guard, at a conservative estimate.

And there are tens if not hundreds of thousands of active war zones across the Galaxy.

For the most part? The Imperial Guard and non-Astartes fighting forces are more than enough to get the job done. Sheer weight of numbers and favourable logistics will see to that.

The number of warzones that need Astartes intervention is comparatively small - and so to see an Astartes at war would be rare.

It’s only lynchpin worlds such as Armageddon where a serious and sustained Astartes presence is required. So even when the Astartes do turn up? Even a full battle Company? The majority of the Imperial forces aren’t going to see them, because their presence is so minimal, they’re almost exclusively reserved for decapitation or other vital streaks. In, wreck the place, out and onto to the next one.

Sure, you’ll hear they’re planetside. And you might even hear rumours of how terrifying they were to witness. And some very carefully selected pict-casts might make it into circulation.

But, thanks to Imperial propaganda, where the existence of Chaos is actively denied, and the threat of all Xenos seriously underplayed to prevent panic? You’re not going to get footage of the Astartes wrecking the place. That’s suppressed, especially as Astartes casualties are likely when taking out the enemy command,

This is all part of what makes 40K so immersive in my eyes.

Depends on the Chapter as well. The Ultramarines or Black Templars might make public appearances to boost morale but Chapters like the Raven Guard might not even tell the local Imperial forces they're present. Heck, the Carcharadons actively repress any knowledge of their involvement in conflicts, like how they saved the Blood Angels during the Ghost War but all monuments dedicated to them had obsidian discs for faces and no blank iconography.

Vatsetis wrote:
Men, this is an element of the lore badly translated to the miniatures and art... Those armor suits and specially the shoulder pads look rigid as hell.

The outer shell of armour plates can look however rigid they want. The inner workings, hidden from view, is where the techno-magic happens.

Always assume first that there is some sci-fi reason that odd things work, rather than assuming something cannot work. We should reason so as to explain how it fits together, not reason for why this or that don't make any sense at all and should not be a thing. That's a last resort if some introduction to the setting comes off as most jarring with the rest of the worldbuilding.

Auto-reactive armour is a long-established piece of background, but even without official references we would have been able to infer its existence from looking at the clunky models. The science part of science fantasy is not to be discarded. Things can be bonkers, but even the most absurd things will make sense to those who carry them out, even if they appear bizarre to outsiders.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There are roughly 1,000,000 Imperial Astartes at large in the Galaxy.

The Galaxy is unfashionably huge. As in, us mere real mortals really can’t grasp it, because our brains have never experienced such a vast area.

There are billions of Imperial Guard, at a conservative estimate.

And there are tens if not hundreds of thousands of active war zones across the Galaxy.

For the most part? The Imperial Guard and non-Astartes fighting forces are more than enough to get the job done. Sheer weight of numbers and favourable logistics will see to that.

The number of warzones that need Astartes intervention is comparatively small - and so to see an Astartes at war would be rare.

It’s only lynchpin worlds such as Armageddon where a serious and sustained Astartes presence is required. So even when the Astartes do turn up? Even a full battle Company? The majority of the Imperial forces aren’t going to see them, because their presence is so minimal, they’re almost exclusively reserved for decapitation or other vital streaks. In, wreck the place, out and onto to the next one.

Sure, you’ll hear they’re planetside. And you might even hear rumours of how terrifying they were to witness. And some very carefully selected pict-casts might make it into circulation.

But, thanks to Imperial propaganda, where the existence of Chaos is actively denied, and the threat of all Xenos seriously underplayed to prevent panic? You’re not going to get footage of the Astartes wrecking the place. That’s suppressed, especially as Astartes casualties are likely when taking out the enemy command,

This is all part of what makes 40K so immersive in my eyes.

I really dont like the "Shroeddinger Marine" theory... They are a miniscule force in the context of the setting but somehow they are omnipresent... WTF... Its either one or another... Or else they deserve the tittle of Marine Sue.

1000 chapters of 1000 marines is just a neat and simbolic number... Just like Christ being 33 when going to meet his fate.

Loyalist marines could be 10 or 100 times more numerous than the "canonical number" if only because nothing stops CSM from achieving those numbers over time.

Dude, if you’re just going to ignore any established background you personally don’t enjoy/agree with, you’re arguing in bad faith.

Well, is your POV.

Treating Marines as if they were an army of "Batmen" is just silly.

Not every body has to accept at face value the most obtuse elements of the lore... Specially when 40k is famous for its "unrelaible narrators".

Rigorism is not the only way to look at things.

You claim an issue with Astartes.

Others offer refutation, with citation.

You ignore the citation and claim the refutation to be without citation.

It’s like arguing with a flat earther.

I havent ignore any citation. I simply give them a different value than others.

The earth not being flat can be demosttated in an objective and scientific manner.

40K lore is a collection of contradictory myths and unreliable sources... I just frame those sources in a different manner.

Vatsetis wrote:I really dont like the "Shroeddinger Marine" theory... They are a miniscule force in the context of the setting but somehow they are omnipresent...

No-one said they're omni-present. They're constantly active and present at the most critical fronts, but the galaxy is still massive.

Space Marines are not a common sight, unless you found yourself always fighting at critically important warzones, and even then, unless you've been deployed somehow to a crucial elite battlefield where the line is seconds away from breaking, or just happen to be near a strategically vital point in the enemy line, you might still be on the same battlefield and never see an Astartes.

An example of this is in the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, specifically at Verghast. A massive Chaos rebellion ensues on the world, and whole forge complexes fall to Chaos-aligned forces. Three Space Marines are deployed, and even though Gaunt essentially takes on operational command of the entire defence on the planet, he never even sees the Astartes in action during the campaign.

Loyalist marines could be 10 or 100 times more numerous than the "canonical number" if only because nothing stops CSM from achieving those numbers over time.

They *could* be, but then it wouldn't be canon, would it?

As I've said, I'm fine with changing the canon when it serves a purpose for player enjoyment. What purpose does this serve? Making them "realistic"? Should we get rid of other unrealistic elements, like chainswords and psychic powers too?

Vatsetis wrote:Not every body has to accept at face value the most obtuse elements of the lore... Specially when 40k is famous for its "unrelaible narrators".

So what can we say is canon then? What can we not dismiss as "unreliable narrators"?

The point stands that these superhuman and "unrealistic" feats are the majority of depictions of Space Marines. If that's considered to be the most common depiction, why should we believe that it is all fake?

You mention obtuse elements, but where is the line drawn?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vatsetis wrote:
I havent ignore any citation. I simply give them a different value than others.

A value of 0 is otherwise known as "ignoring".

The earth not being flat can be demostated in an objective and scientific manner.

40K lore is a collection of contradictory myths and unreliable sources... I just frame those sources in a different manner.

Otherwise known as ignoring when convenient for you.

But sure, we can play that game: Chaos doesn't actually exist, it's just a myth and any stories where it does exist are just propaganda and unreliable narrators. In fact, the only faction in the game is Tau, and every other faction is just a propaganda piece.

Savvy?

Actually the 3 Marines is Sanctus Reach not Verghast but the point remains. Out of the entire Gaunts Ghosts series we have a grand total of 10 Space Marines, and only 3 are Loyalists. Its made very clear that Astartes are rare even in important war zones.

For clarity.

My extensive knowledge of the background is never intended as a flex. Just as my height isn’t something I had control over, me getting into this hobby quite near the beginning should not be taken as a sign of superiority.

Indeed, I’m really not terribly well read in the modern era of 40K. And my knowledge of my own era is certainly incomplete.

But when all are invited to chip in, and the OP just sort of opts to ignore well researched and cited answers?

What the the bloody point?

You? Marines aren’t all that and a bag of potato chips;

Others? Well, actually * sources sources sources sources sources sources sources* kind of challenge your standpoint, but we’re willing to discuss it?

You? Yes but if we ignore all your sources, clearly I’m right.

It’s tiresome. It’s boring. You know when you acknowledged that, in my own peculiar way, I can get across transhuman dread? That was a glimmer of hope for your greater appreciation of just how the 40K background rabbit hole can go.

I do not, and will not, claim to be an authority on said background. Because frankly I’d become a colossal bore. Stuck in my ways, mired by my own interpretation thereof.

I’m at my Sad Old Git best when my take is actually challenged - hence I’ll often ask for citation. Not because “I are write”, but because I’m aware I’ve not read all the background and novels. When I ask for citation, it’s for my own learning - so I can go read it to.

Perhaps I’ll read and interpret the text in the same way. Perhaps I’ll come away with a different take. Either way, it’s a road to a healthy and frankly fascinating discussion.

You, my good man? “If it’s not my own pre-conceived notion, it must be wrong, because reasons”.

Stick around kid. I’ve a background thread which should include chapter and verse citations from very old books. And I’m very open to people challenging what I might post with more modern sources - and from there friendly and fascinating discussion will arise.

Just don’t stick your fingers in your ears and declare “La la la la la la I’m not listening la la la” as your counter point.

There’s an awful lot of knowledge amongst us Dakkanauts. And it’s freely given.

Accept it. Digest it. Consider it. If you’ve got a hot take, know your sources and be prepared to defend your take. Because others will challenge it.

Addressing the original poster:

This thread seems to be the Space Marine version of "What do you mean a person wearing plate mail can run?"

If your complaint is about the size of the shoulder pads in some depictions of marine armor, you should be filing that with the complaints about impossible anatomy (head vs. arms and shoulders placement on depictions of terminator armor, etc), huge heads, and so forth.

Just use the old multi-part non-monopose marine models for reference: the shoulder pads get held on by whatever you need to hold them on while not getting in the way of the arms.

I started this thread asking for any graphical evidence that SM can indeed fight while prone... Im still waiting

A lot of the information of this thread has been useful for me... the data on ground pressure and the auto-reactive armor has shown me that Astartes are indeed more maneuverable that what I initially thought.

Nevertheless, sources to be valid must have some credibility.

The legend of the so-called Battle of Covadonga (circa 722 AD) speaks about thousands upon thousands of Muslim troops being defeated because the Virgin Mary make their arrows and lances to be deflected back and killing the infidels... this is a Myth that speaks us about how "Spain" was build upon Catholic faith. But this is obviously religious and political propaganda... its reasonable to be skeptical about it.

If you ask the PR department of a fast food franchise they will surely tell you that their food is healthy and that they follow the highest quality standards... but this is marketing, and a smart consumer should be skeptical about the inherent quality of extremely cheap food.

Most of the 40K Lore mixes in universe propaganda with real world marketing. Many 40K stories are just written ads in which the protagonist have an easy time defeating their foes in cool manners as a way to better sell a power fantasy for the costumer and therefore more minis and merchandise... its all very clear and straight forward.

So when the lore is inconsistent ... making the Astartes both extremely rare and limited because of very convinient reasons (loyalist only get 1000x1000 marines to limit the individual power of a Chapter Master even doe the IOM wouldnt possibly be able to have the records to date, even doe every chapter will try to increase their numbers of brothers in arms, even doe to maintain those 1000 chapters as a fighting force and control constant SM rebelions a huge reserve of Astartes backup should be available. On the other side CSM cannot grow beyond very low numbers because of infigthing and warp instability even doe they have an unlimited amount of time to do so)... but making them ubiquitous because every individual marine is allegedly like an army of one (like the cheesy 80s action films) and are somewhat able to move arround the galaxy with ease (even doe they are constrained by the same warp travel limitations as the rest of the imperial forces)...well it makes no sense... its inconsistent and contradictory... therefore I have the right to take it with a grain of

The Codex and the lore about Astartes tells that they are a team players, they are a collective force that fight under a proper military structure of squads and bigger units... if you are looking for "Batman like" entities in 40K the Imperial Assasins and others are much better reference.

Of course you can accept the 40K stories at face value. That this lore is self sustaining even if its contradictory. But if you are going to follow this "Credo quia absurdum" approach you dont have any need to answer someone with a skeptical POV like me... dont get bored, dont try to double down on the weirdest elements of the fluff, just ignore this questions because (respecfully) they are not ment for you.

So when people insist to depict even the most standard Astartes as comic-book superheroes just because they can reference some story in which they crush some hepless chaos cultist gang or Planetary Defense Force... I basically think about all the horrors of the 40K Galaxy and suddenly the basic Tactical Marine or Intercessor turns into this...

Vatsetis, stop being disingenuous. Is obvious you don't want to change your view or opinion, and thats fine. Is your opinion about space marines.

But stop wasting everybodys time and being obtuse when ample evidence in how stuff works in universe is shown to you. If you don't like it thats fine, but thats how the authors of the universe want it to work. Thats it. Maybe I find absurd how pokemons can enter pokeballs but thats how that universe works.

When I play 40K, Space Crusade or Space Hulk I dont see Astartes in the same manner as Pokemon, or Looney toons.... doing so quite of undermines the setting, IMHO.

Im not writting in bad faith or being disingenuous... perhaps is just that this is the typical conflict between an Emic and an Etic approach:

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/culturalanthropology/chapter/two-views-of-culture-etic-emic/

"I'm not arguing in bad faith!", as they argue in bad faith.

Ive re-read al my post in this thread and I really dont understand why people get so mad and speak of bad faith on my part.

Perhaps you are reading too far into my words.

It really doesn't matter how advanced the tech is and how much it moves with the body - putting extra inflexible layers on a body reduces motion. It's impossible to increase the circumference of all parts of a body and not affect its ability to move in some way.

 Hellebore wrote:
It really doesn't matter how advanced the tech is and how much it moves with the body - putting extra inflexible layers on a body reduces motion. It's impossible to increase the circumference of all parts of a body and not affect its ability to move in some way.

Space Marines should have some restriction in movement due to their armor and their general body type and training, but they are surprisingly more agile and fast than their appearance would let someone think and thanks to the Black Carapace, they are not encumbered by their armor nor does it slow down the movements they can accomplish. That's basically the gist of it. I don't think that anybody here is arguing that Space Marines can easily bend down and touch their toes without bending their knees.

Vatsetis wrote:
Ive re-read al my post in this thread and I really dont understand why people get so mad and speak of bad faith on my part.

Perhaps you are reading too far into my words.

You've been given many citations from the actual, GW-made lore, and completely ignored it. You've provided nothing on your side but "Nuh-uh!" and insist that Marines specifically have to work by real-world rules, yet seem completely unbothered by Dreadnoughts, or Ogryns, or Knights, or Titans, or Carnifexes, or Wraithlords, or...

Point is, you have to take the universe of 40k on its terms. You can have objections and critiques, for sure-I honestly think that they never should've given a solid number of Astartes. I'd rather they keep it vague, something like "A small fraction of the actual bodies of the Imperium's war machine, but wielding outsize power compared to their number," or something like that. But I accept that Marines still hold an important place in both the Imperium's war machine and the Chaos side as well.

I really dont understand why 40K lore has to be taken "on its terms"... When this is a lore famous for its inconsistency and contradictions (the power level of a given unit depends of wether or not is the protagonist of a given story) and the use of subjective unreliable narrators.

It is sort of asking to take a medieval chronicle "on its terms" and straight without applying any criticism. BTW also medieval chronicles have a very bad sense of scale regarding the number of soldiers involved in a campaign.

If suddenly Ogryns were ment to be sealth experts or Titans as common as Leman Russ tanks I would indeed be skeptical about those claims.

Certainly the basic marine Dreadnought seems a very unstable design and hardly unable to engage in melee combat... Also some SM aircraft seem to have absolutely no aerodynamic capabilities.

If the contradictions between lore capability and art/miniature design create a cognitive disociation I just point it out... Is not that a great deal.

After all Im not pretending to reform or change 40k to any extent, Im just trying to make sense of the setting.

Vatsetis wrote:
I really dont understand why 40K lore has to be taken "on its terms"... When this is a lore famous for its inconsistency and contradictions (the power level of a given unit depends of wether or not is the protagonist of a given story) and the use of subjective unreliable narrators.

It is sort of asking to take a medieval chronicle "on its terms" and straight without applying any criticism. BTW also medieval chronicles have a very bad sense of scale regarding the number of soldiers involved in a campaign.

If suddenly Ogryns were ment to be sealth experts or Titans as common as Leman Russ tanks I would indeed be skeptical about those claims.

Certainly the basic marine Dreadnought seems a very unstable design and hardly unable to engage in melee combat... Also some SM aircraft seem to have absolutely no aerodynamic capabilities.

If the contradictions between lore capability and art/miniature design create a cognitive disociation I just point it out... Is not that a great deal.

After all Im not pretending to reform or change 40k to any extent, Im just trying to make sense of the setting.

For me the cognitive dissonance you refer to is part of the appeal of the 40k setting. Its over-the-top nutso bonkers, and I enjoy that about it. Yes there are inconsistencies all over the place, I like specific stories to be narratively consistent, but I have no issue with plot armour and power levels varying from one story to the other in the service of telling a good story. "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story" and all that.

Specifically in reference to the Space Marines being Hulk and Batman at the same time, I think that is exactly what they are, and that is part of the appeal. In the setting some space marines are indeed sneakier than a ratling, there is even a first founding legion where that is there whole shtick.

As for marines lying prone, I can't think of an example in the artwork, but it definitely happens in the stories. So, the drawings don't exactly match the words... When do they ever? Let's not forget that the scale of everything in 40k is out of whack. The miniatures are in "heroic" scale, a lasgun isn't in-universe that big compared to the torso of a guardsmen. Sometimes the hands on a miniature are as large as a rifle or the same miniature's own torso.

Like with any work of fiction there is a requirement for the willing suspension of disbelief. Where one person draws the line on what is too much varies. I like the pseudo-science of 40k and I fully embrace the fantastical aspects of the setting too.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Grimdank/comments/85rcug/proconverted_space_marine_in_a_stealthy_lying/

This guy converted a model.

Is the approximate weight of a power armoured Marine known? They have very wide feet with a pretty large surface area, so the ground pressure may not be all that high to be honest. They can probably go anywhere that can take the weight of, say, a large bull or draught horse (both of which can weigh over a ton and have much narrower feet).

I'm sure we could accurately guess. A horse is anywhere from about 400kg - 1000kg (1 ton). So a marine is probably somewhere around there.

I think todays soldiers traditionally carry around 15kgs of armour, which is probably similar to a Guardsmen's flak armour and helmet.

Something like an Imperial Guard stormtrooper in full carapace probably wears around 25kgs of armour, which would be around the same as a Medieval knight.

The 2 issues working out how heavy a marines power armour might be is 1) how thick the armour is; and 2) that it's powered so carry weight alone doesn't need to be considered.

An in universe example is the Sentinel. It's a 1 man vehicle, has 45mm of armour at maximum and weighs approximately 7 tons. Which is actually fairly reasonable, considering its compact nature and comparing it to many armoured vehicles.

Using the same thickness as the sentinel a marine, who's smaller again, a suit of power armour would probably be still pushing around 5 tons. If you dropped that to maybe 20mm you could be looking around 2 tons.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Grimdank/comments/85rcug/proconverted_space_marine_in_a_stealthy_lying/

This guy converted a model.

Thanks Pal... that pretty much fulfills the thread aim for me.

Hasn't the marine numbers been changed now?
They no longer follow the 1000/1000 thing, as Girlyman raised many new (Primaris only) chapters and rescinded the limit on 1000 marines, reinforcing the chapters.

I doubt we have much more, but I can imagine that's doubled the number of marines or so.

Suddenly Im a huge RG fan... indeed he dosent get enough recognition

Gert wrote:Actually the 3 Marines is Sanctus Reach not Verghast but the point remains. Out of the entire Gaunts Ghosts series we have a grand total of 10 Space Marines, and only 3 are Loyalists. Its made very clear that Astartes are rare even in important war zones.

I think it's a different case of the three Marines too though - in the aftermath of the Verghast incident, I seem to remember that Gaunt is told that some Astartes even helped out in clearing out the last bastions of Zoican troops - but we never see them in the book, only mentioned.

I could be wrong, as I don't have the book on me.

Vatsetis wrote:I started this thread asking for any graphical evidence that SM can indeed fight while prone... Im still waiting

You were given written evidence. Why is that not enough?

I want graphic evidence of a Space Marine punching a Tau's head off. If I don't receive graphic proof displaying this, am I right in assuming they can't? What a pathetic claim.

Nevertheless, sources to be valid must have some credibility.

Define for us what a "valid" source is then, as we've all presented the implicit evidence of "Space Maines *do* perform all the feats we see".

The legend of the so-called Battle of Covadonga (circa 722 AD) speaks about thousands upon thousands of Muslim troops being defeated because the Virgin Mary make their arrows and lances to be deflected back and killing the infidels... this is a Myth that speaks us about how "Spain" was build upon Catholic faith. But this is obviously religious and political propaganda... its reasonable to be skeptical about it.

Unlike the real world, which *does* have observable, measurable physics, 40k does not. Therefore, the only baseline we have to go off of with 40k is "are we told they can do it with regularity?" and "do omniscient third person narrator sources tell us this happened?"
If yes to both of the above, why should it not be valid.

If you ask the PR department of a fast food franchise they will surely tell you that their food is healthy and that they follow the highest quality standards... but this is marketing, and a smart consumer should be skeptical about the inherent quality of extremely cheap food.

And who is being marketed to in this fiction you outline?

Most of the 40K Lore mixes in universe propaganda with real world marketing. Many 40K stories are just written ads in which the protagonist have an easy time defeating their foes in cool manners as a way to better sell a power fantasy for the costumer and therefore more minis and merchandise... its all very clear and straight forward.

So your claim is that "Space Marines are only described as powerful to sell the product to real world consumers"?

What stops anyone from claiming that *every* feat, every test of strength, every action performed by any of these fictional character isn't also propaganda? Guardsmen? Any demonstration of their strength is just false. Tau? Don't exist, their whole life is a propaganda effort to get people to collect a new army. Orks? GW's just making propaganda about fungi to get people to buy Orks.
What *is* real to you?

The Codex and the lore about Astartes tells that they are a team players, they are a collective force that fight under a proper military structure of squads and bigger units... if you are looking for "Batman like" entities in 40K the Imperial Assasins and others are much better reference.

Except the lore doesn't say that at all. In *many* cases of the lore, Space Marines deploy at the *squad* level, and sometimes even less. The Sabbat Worlds Crusade is an excellent example, but we see cases of these small sized forces in such cases as Knights of Macragge.

Of course you can accept the 40K stories at face value. That this lore is self sustaining even if its contradictory. But if you are going to follow this "Credo quia absurdum" approach you dont have any need to answer someone with a skeptical POV like me... dont get bored, dont try to double down on the weirdest elements of the fluff, just ignore this questions because (respecfully) they are not ment for you.

There's a difference between "being skeptical" and "sticking your head in the sand". Don't try and conflate the two.

And I ask again - what is "contradictory" in Space Marine physiology? What says that they *can't* go prone? Your understanding of physics? Does your understanding of physics encompass psychic powers too?

Vatsetis wrote:Im not writting in bad faith or being disingenuous... perhaps is just that this is the typical conflict between an Emic and an Etic approach:

Emic and etic approaches do not apply to this. 40k is a *fictional setting*, therefore there cannot be an emic understanding.

Vatsetis wrote:I really dont understand why 40K lore has to be taken "on its terms"... When this is a lore famous for its inconsistency and contradictions (the power level of a given unit depends of wether or not is the protagonist of a given story) and the use of subjective unreliable narrators.

But we see no such counterevidence that Space Marines *cannot* go prone. 40k should be taken on it's own terms *because it is not beholden to our terms, as a fictional setting*.

It is sort of asking to take a medieval chronicle "on its terms" and straight without applying any criticism. BTW also medieval chronicles have a very bad sense of scale regarding the number of soldiers involved in a campaign.

Medieval chronicles take place in the real world. 40k does not.

You *do* understand the difference between fiction and reality, yes?

If suddenly Ogryns were ment to be sealth experts or Titans as common as Leman Russ tanks I would indeed be skeptical about those claims.

But Ogryns shouldn't be able to move, according to "biology", and Titans shouldn't be able to walk because of "physics". Why are you not skeptical about those?

Certainly the basic marine Dreadnought seems a very unstable design and hardly unable to engage in melee combat... Also some SM aircraft seem to have absolutely no aerodynamic capabilities.

So do Dreadnoughts not exist then? Do Space Marines lack aircraft?
How do you reconcile such things?

After all Im not pretending to reform or change 40k to any extent, Im just trying to make sense of the setting.

And the way to make sense of the setting is to ignore real world logic, physics, biology, and rationality. It's 40k. It's not real, it's not rational, and it's not trying to be. If the lore says Space Marines can do what they can do, and there's nothing in the setting that says they can't, then they can. It's that simple.

Unless you can provide a counterargument *in universe* that Space Marines can't go prone, prevailing consensus would imply that they absolutely can go prone.

But I never claim that Astartes couldnt go prone.

I just make a question.

I was really curious to see an Astartes fighting while prone... both as a model or in a drawing.

Some people completelly miss the mark with my posts. Is puzzling.

The relationship between fiction and reality is not that straight forward... pretending they are two completelly separate bubbles is a very naive and reductive approach to the issue:

https://books.google.es/books?id=rs5eRutIV5cC&pg=PA2-IA3&lpg=PA2-IA3&dq=holistic+view+of+fiction+and+reality&source=bl&ots=zHhQkxjV4O&sig=ACfU3U2m38pzs3IRlXz2LpdGGUusiNA7Jg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiY3L-ciqTyAhVJeMAKHed2BYkQ6AF6BAghEAM#v=onepage&q=holistic%20view%20of%20fiction%20and%20reality&f=false

Maybe it's because in the title and first post of this thread you ask if they can go prone?
If you ask one thing and mean another, it can often confuse people.

You didn't claim Astartes couldn't go prone you just argued that written evidence was worthless and that everyone's explanations were worthless. You asked a question then didn't like the answer so argued with people who gave you the answer.

Vatsetis wrote:

We can assume that teoretically in lore SM are able to go prone, but are they ment to be able to fire, move and fight normally in such position?

This is my second post in this thread... Im hardly arguing against SM being able to go prone.

If an Astartes needs to go prone he just punches the ground really hard to make an appropriate crater to account for any difficulties due to the pauldrons and so on. Of course, an unaugmented human could never do this, which is why you don't see Sisters of Battle going prone to fire.

Orks in powered armour can punch the ground to make craters but of course not as well as a fully functional marine and that's represented in their worse defensive stats and ballistic skill.

I look forward to next week's thread 'Are Space Marines the best at piano? After all they have heightened senses and reactions. Which Primarch would be the best concert pianist?'

Vatsetis wrote:But I never claim that Astartes couldnt go prone.

I just make a question.

Suuuuure, just asking the question, and ignoring the written instances where it happens, and your poorly veiled comments implying that such a thing would be "illogical" or "ridiculous".

You know that you don't have to say something to be pretty clear you mean it, right?

I was really curious to see an Astartes fighting while prone... both as a model or in a drawing.

Shame. But you have it in writing instead. Is that a problem?

Some people completelly miss the mark with my posts. Is puzzling.

And what mark would that be?

One of the better troll threads recently. Just add the op to your ignore and move on.

Well, I certainly got a lot of useful information out of this thread.

You dont know were the most humble of questions will lead you.

Thats the beauty of wisdom's voyage.

I’m sure that Captain Tycho could play a mean Hammond organ

Honestly, if they had instruments specifically built for larger Astartes fingers, I actually have no doubts that Blood Angels specifically (and probably pre-Heresy Emperor's Children) would likely have many consummate musicians among their number, given their fondness for artistry.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Honestly, if they had instruments specifically built for larger Astartes fingers, I actually have no doubts that Blood Angels specifically (and probably pre-Heresy Emperor's Children) would likely have many consummate musicians among their number, given their fondness for artistry.

IIRC the original noise marine weapons where adapted musical insturments.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Honestly, if they had instruments specifically built for larger Astartes fingers, I actually have no doubts that Blood Angels specifically (and probably pre-Heresy Emperor's Children) would likely have many consummate musicians among their number, given their fondness for artistry.

I am pretty sure they do have instruments. It's well known that Ultramarines play the sax while standing on top of Land Raiders. In the new Iron Snakes book one marine recites poetry to himself, for several pages, while he is alone in the shower. Why the shower? Evidently he discovered it had wonderful acoustics. He's also not really alone but I will let you read that for yourselves.

A lot of warrior cultures have, to one extent or another prized a creative outlet as being nesscary for their warrior elite. I imagine it varies from chapter to chapter. Ultramarines likely prize academic work, blood angels clearly prize artistic expression such as sculpture etc.

I'm sure there's chapters out there with musical tradtions. My custom chapter I've actully fluffed that each Marine upon his ascension to a full brother begins a "great work" this is USEALLY an object of artistic expression (not always) that they work on over their life, once they die their great work is put on display in the Chapter Chapel to memoralize them. (they're an ulta founding chapter so their chapel isn't absurdly overdone...... yet)
credit where credit is due this is something I nicked from Battletech's clan ghost bear

Space Marines also give the most reassuring hugs. You might think the Carnifex would be able to hug more reassuringly, but actually due to the auto-reactive black carapace a space marine is better able to judge exactly how much pressure to exert for maximum reassurance.

Their superhuman reactions allow them to time the hug perfectly, ensuring maximum reassurance does not turn to akwardness.

Certainly Adeptus Astartes would be better used by the IOM as "hug ambassadors" rather than as redundant bolter carriers.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Their superhuman reactions allow them to time the hug perfectly, ensuring maximum reassurance does not turn to akwardness.

Off topic: i officially want a space marine plushy now.

Not before I get my Squig plushies.

HEY, GW! WE WANT PLUSHIES!

They sell kids books… is it not inevitable?

 Flinty wrote:
They sell kids books… is it not inevitable?

They are taking their sweet time and want my squig plushy!

if that can exist I see no reason a squig plushi can't

I saw a nurgling plushie advertised recently. No idea where, I didn't care to look or really commit it to memory.

In a cursory search I saw a few skaven plushies on Etsy, but nothing more futuristic.

 Flinty wrote:
In a cursory search I saw a few skaven plushies on Etsy, but nothing more futuristic.

Privateer press had a shredder plushie. It was cute but I wanted a warjack plushie instead.

This is what I saw;
.
The actual page selling it seems to be E404 now, so perhaps it was an unofficial product now shutdown.