From my reading it seems like the Tyranids are a total joke compared to all the factions at their peak.
It is my understanding that individual Krorks are stronger than the beast. And every ork was a Krork back in the day. If Octarius is anything to go by, Krorks would seem to stomp the Tyranids hard.
Necrons have one too many super weapons. If all of them are operational and organized with full power C'tan support on top of that, it seems the Tyranids would be as strong as a cockroach v.s. a tank.
Eldar went tit for tat with the Necrons' super weapons with the blackstone fortresses. I don't see how Tyranids could handle system wiping super weapons that completely outranges them.
Men of Iron had what, Blackhole cannons? Sun snuffers? Swarms of little robots that nom faster and better than Tyranids? Seems like they'd do everything the Tyranids do but better.
So is it correct to assume that the Tyranids are just cockroaches feasting on the corpses of all the factions and they wouldn't stand a chance in hell if all the factions haven't completely gimped themselves?
You’ve missed that there are many, many more Tyranids than numbers within the other factions. Their numbers are unknown as we’ve but seen the tips of their Hive Fleet tendrils. They will feast until all are consumed.
It might depend a bit on the relation of what we saw of the hive fleets so far compared to what is coming. Who knows the "main" Tyranid advance might be much more "technologically" advanced than what we saw so far, posessing planetkillers and sun snuffers on their own.
1 - Orks, not Krorks. The Krork were an ancient race created by the Old Ones to fight the Necrontry during the War in Heaven and there is a theory that they might be either the genetic precursor or creators of the subsequent Orkoid races (Orks, Grotz and Snotz). Octarius is a "stalemate" between the Orks and one of the tendrils of Hive Fleet Leviathan. Emphasis on one because there were hundreds all over the Galaxy.
2 - Yes, the Necrons have a lot of big guns. Most of the race is either in stasis all over the Galaxy or has been destroyed by millennia of decay, accidents (i.e. star going supernova, earthquakes), revenge strikes from the Aeldari and then awakening wars against the modern races. The C'tan are slaves to the Necrons and can't be reunited or they will kill the Necrons for enslaving them in crystals.
3 - The Aeldari fought the Necrontyr in the War in Heaven and almost lost, indeed it was only the conflict between the C'tan and Necrons that saved them from the same extinction the Old Ones suffered. The Aeldari are now a dying, fractured race doomed to be consumed by a God they birthed. They are in no way a serious threat to the Tyranids.
4 - The Men of Iron don't exist anymore. End of story.
5 - As others have pointed out, the Tyranids seen so far are probing tendrils of the main swarm. Leviathan was the largest to invade the Milky Way and was only "stopped" (I'll get back to that) after the loss of trillions of lives and thousands of worlds. Kryptmans gambits (ending food sources i.e. genocide and the Octarius plan) both failed in the long run, and even though the Great Rift caused huge damage to Leviathan, it still destroyed much of the Red Scar, including seeding Baal itself with infiltrator organisms, and continues to ravage the wider Galaxy.
If we are talking peak Old Ones, pre-fall Eldar, or war in heaven Necrons then they could probably deal with Tyranids on something like equal footing. But it still wouldn't be a joke.
Assuming the krork were genetically superior 'prime-orks' that would make things worse; Tyranids would obtain those genetics.
Men of Iron still ultimately lost, so they weren't THAT powerful.
The Tyranid race for all intents and purposes very likely outnumbers every other race combined. Certainly this is the case in terms of creatures at arms. And unlike the various other species, they’re of literally a single mind and purpose.
Yes, we do see fighting between Hive Fleets, but given their unique nature that’s not exactly a downside. One could better describe it as weapons testing. A way for the Hive Mind to contrast and compare effectiveness, with the winner coming out all the stronger.
They are however relatively slow moving as such things can be measured. If say, The Imperium could focus on the Hive Fleets and the Hive Fleets alone, there might be a chance of victory. Same with Orks, and possibly Necrons (Necrons have a significant advantage as they’re not really affected by the Shadow in the Warp).
But, 40K is 40K, and everyone is too busy fighting everyone else to be able to tackle the Hive Fleets properly.
That Man of Iron is the last one. Its race was exterminated after they were beaten by the fleshlings and any more that are found are eradicated for being A.I.
What is your source of that information? How do you know it is a reliable source? The robots the admechs have has a lot of the fluff that they certanly seem to be doing their own thing some times. And it is only a retcon handwave to introduce them again. The universe is a big place. And there are certain things worth keeping and ekstra eye on.
It's been in 40k background consistently that the Men of Iron were destroyed by an alliance of powers prior to the Age of Strife. The anti-Artificial Intelligence laws were introduced specifically because of the Men of Iron. UR-025 is an exception to the rule and only UR-025 knows it is a Man of Iron. The rest of the adventurers from Blackstone Fortress think it's just a personal robot of a Magos sent to study the structure. When a Mechanicum Adept made the Kaban Engine just before the Heresy, they were terrified because they had just broken one of the most sacred laws of the Imperium in creating it. In fact one of the reasons so many of the Mechanicum joined Horus was to get rid of the Crimson Accords that banned the research and construction of A.I.
The Mechanicum and the Adeptus Mechanicus robots are not A.I. because they do not have free will. All have programmed behaviours that must be maintained by someone trained in the arts of Mars. There are even rules to show this such as Programmed Behaviour in HH where any Automata resort to basic protocols if they are out of range of a piece of equipment called a Cortex Controller.
There are only 2 actual threats to the galaxy in 40k.
Necrons, whos tech is so beyond the scope of everyone else that they could annihilate everything from their diner table while sipping wine. (They have that living star map of the galaxy where they can manipulate celestial bodies in real time by swiping on it like a cell phone including winking stars out of existence.)
And the Tyranids, who eat entire galaxies. Everyone else is so caught up in their petty squabbles they don't even realize the scope of the threat.
People might argue that the chaos gods are also a threat, but if Chaos actually wins and all life is extinguished/falls to the warp then there are no more intelligent creatures to sustain them in the warp and they end up losing anyway. So while yes, bad for everyone, they ultimately cannot win themselves.
Thats it. It only LOOKS like the Tyranids are not such a huge threat because they are looking at all the blood sweat and tears spent defending single systems from them, the sheer scope of the loss to do it, and they think it's a victory. As though they caused real loss and/or damage to the tyranids. As though it wasn't just causing the hive mind to chip a nail.
Chaos doesn't only seek to destroy though. The "plan" the Gods laid out for Horus was basically the same as what happened to the Imperium, life would continue but there would be sacrifices and dedications to the Pantheon to keep them sustained for as long as Humanity survived.
Gert wrote: Chaos doesn't only seek to destroy though. The "plan" the Gods laid out for Horus was basically the same as what happened to the Imperium, life would continue but there would be sacrifices and dedications to the Pantheon to keep them sustained for as long as Humanity survived.
But it's not sustainable for several reasons. 1) Chaos is self destructive. You can't have a god of war, violence, and death that gains power the more violence there is and not have a constant loss of life to fuel him. 2) The gods don't play nice with each other. Betrayals and power grabs are inevitable. Then see above. 3) He's not the only god of death. Nurgle for being a god of life isn't a god of sentient life. He spreads plagues and disease. The life that sustains him also succumbs to him. The sensation of having your skin shucked from you like an ear of corn isn't one most life can survive but either inflicting it or experiencing it is where Slaanesh's life style leads to. And Tzneetch for being all about change is actually the most stable. Except with enough change and mutation you become mindless abominations.
Again none of that is sustainable. They are all self destructive. It's not an if, it's a when - IF they were to win.
And if Humanity is eradicated then numerous other races will step up to the plate. The Gods don't care where their sustenance comes from and if the Milky Way is somehow emptied of all sentient life then they'll just find another Galaxy. That being said, eradicating all sentient life is a very difficult task and the Gods are nothing if not patient. Something somewhere will come along to keep them in the game in the material realm and if not, oh well. The Gods can't be destroyed, that much is certain.
My theory with krorks is that they’re the exact same genetically as orks, they just had access to the best fight that ever happened. When orks fight more, they get bigger, stronger, but also smarter. Krorks are just way bigger, way stronger, and way smarter orks, so I think it was just the level of fight they got that made em crazy.
Gert wrote: And if Humanity is eradicated then numerous other races will step up to the plate. The Gods don't care where their sustenance comes from and if the Milky Way is somehow emptied of all sentient life then they'll just find another Galaxy. That being said, eradicating all sentient life is a very difficult task and the Gods are nothing if not patient. Something somewhere will come along to keep them in the game in the material realm and if not, oh well. The Gods can't be destroyed, that much is certain.
I never specified humanity. I said Life.
But no, they CAN be destroyed. They, being creatures of the warp, exist as manifestations of psychic feedback of sentient creatures in the universe. If there are no sentient creatures the warp calms the feth down and the gods stop being.
So if the monumental task of eradicating all life in the Galaxy is achieved, considering the Warp and Gods are one and the same, how do you destroy them? In theory, the Warp can be contained and no longer able to breach into the material realm, hence the Blackstone Pylons, but it can't be destroyed.
Then we go into the seriously crazy stuff where the Gods always exist and have always existed, even Slaanesh who is "young". How do you destroy beings that transcend space and time? What about other Galaxies or dimensions?
The Gods will never "win" their Great Game because it can't be "won". The Gods are parts to the whole that is the Warp, just like Daemons are parts of their Gods. They can be weakened and perhaps even contained/trapped like other entities such as Isha or Khaine but destroyed? Nah.
Gert wrote: So if the monumental task of eradicating all life in the Galaxy is achieved, considering the Warp and Gods are one and the same, how do you destroy them? In theory, the Warp can be contained and no longer able to breach into the material realm, hence the Blackstone Pylons, but it can't be destroyed.
Then we go into the seriously crazy stuff where the Gods always exist and have always existed, even Slaanesh who is "young". How do you destroy beings that transcend space and time? What about other Galaxies or dimensions?
The Gods will never "win" their Great Game because it can't be "won". The Gods are parts to the whole that is the Warp, just like Daemons are parts of their Gods. They can be weakened and perhaps even contained/trapped like other Warp Entities such as Isha or Khaine but destroyed? Nah.
Khorne exists because there is violence via and to sentient creatures. He is a manifestation of the psychic resonance of that violence. If there are no sentient creatures to commit the violence, Khorne no longer exists. The chaos gods are the most powerful psychic manifestations not because they themselves are powerful but because their elements are the most widespread and create the most powerful impacts in the warp. Violence and trauma are powerful things that leave strong psychic imprints in the warp.
The Warp, and entities in the warp, are reflections of what happens in the materium. If you have nothing to send into the warp the warp stops being so volatile. It's why the warp has always been dangerous, but the warp has gotten more dangerous. It's why Slaanesh can be born from what the Eldar were doing in the materium. Psychically powerful people in the materium degrades into sensation cults and started going to farther and farther extremes until suddenly the amount of psychic impact in the warp manifests a entity that reflect all that they were doing.
The Chaos gods NEED people. They don't exist without them.
Unit1126PLL wrote: IF only there was a god that could enhance reproduction rate faster than the death rate.
I assume you refer to Grandfather Nurgle?
when I think "worshipping this god will no doubt result in thousands of babies" Nurgle is NOT the first one I think of.
Then I don't know who you might mean. You can't possibly mean Slaanesh because Slaanesh is all about selfish pursuit of excess and pleasure at all costs, even self-destruction. A Slaaneshi worshipper would have no interest in babies other than perhaps using them for sacrificial rituals or as a cosmetic cream.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: My theory with krorks is that they’re the exact same genetically as orks, they just had access to the best fight that ever happened. When orks fight more, they get bigger, stronger, but also smarter. Krorks are just way bigger, way stronger, and way smarter orks, so I think it was just the level of fight they got that made em crazy.
Gert wrote: It's been in 40k background consistently that the Men of Iron were destroyed by an alliance of powers prior to the Age of Strife. The anti-Artificial Intelligence laws were introduced specifically because of the Men of Iron. UR-025 is an exception to the rule and only UR-025 knows it is a Man of Iron. The rest of the adventurers from Blackstone Fortress think it's just a personal robot of a Magos sent to study the structure. When a Mechanicum Adept made the Kaban Engine just before the Heresy, they were terrified because they had just broken one of the most sacred laws of the Imperium in creating it. In fact one of the reasons so many of the Mechanicum joined Horus was to get rid of the Crimson Accords that banned the research and construction of A.I.
The Mechanicum and the Adeptus Mechanicus robots are not A.I. because they do not have free will. All have programmed behaviours that must be maintained by someone trained in the arts of Mars. There are even rules to show this such as Programmed Behaviour in HH where any Automata resort to basic protocols if they are out of range of a piece of equipment called a Cortex Controller.
How do you know there are not more? You did not know about UR-025 before Blackstone fortress.
This might be a Fabula Syuzhet problem though.
In Dune witch 40K borrows that consept from the machines make a resurface in the later books. There they where also offisially destroyed.
Meanwhile back in the 40K universe we have this description of the Kastelan Robots:
"Bands of these itinerant war machines may appear in the Battle Congregations of the Cult Mechanicus, their arrival unheralded and taken as a sign of the Machine God's favour. They will allow themselves to be directed by local Tech-priests until the battle is won, after which they disappear once more, perhaps for centuries at a time."
To me it sounds like a good idea to disguise yourself as something you look quite similar to if you where a rogue AI. Much like UR-025. There could be others around also.
we have a HH short story where a man of iron helps the Ad mech destroy the dark mech, the man of iron being an AI just put itself into the machines it wanted to control, now we know they do not need a body it opens up the chance that others exist.
as for the gods, you could destroy the 40k universe and they would not care, they are a multiversal threat not tied directly to the 40k universe.
Formosa wrote: we have a HH short story where a man of iron helps the Ad mech destroy the dark mech, the man of iron being an AI just put itself into the machines it wanted to control, now we know they do not need a body it opens up the chance that others exist.
as for the gods, you could destroy the 40k universe and they would not care, they are a multiversal threat not tied directly to the 40k universe.
They kind of say and imply that. But if it was fully true, why don't the legions bound to the chaos gods show up in Fantasy and start blasting people with chaos infused bolters? Where are the demon engines? A plague crawler doesn't actually give a gak if it's attacking the 40k universe or the fantasy one.
This
doesn't give a single gak what it's killing. It's just happy to be killing. Why is it not showing up everywhere?
roboemperor wrote: From my reading it seems like the Tyranids are a total joke compared to all the factions at their peak.
It is my understanding that individual Krorks are stronger than the beast. And every ork was a Krork back in the day. If Octarius is anything to go by, Krorks would seem to stomp the Tyranids hard.
Necrons have one too many super weapons. If all of them are operational and organized with full power C'tan support on top of that, it seems the Tyranids would be as strong as a cockroach v.s. a tank.
Eldar went tit for tat with the Necrons' super weapons with the blackstone fortresses. I don't see how Tyranids could handle system wiping super weapons that completely outranges them.
Men of Iron had what, Blackhole cannons? Sun snuffers? Swarms of little robots that nom faster and better than Tyranids? Seems like they'd do everything the Tyranids do but better.
So is it correct to assume that the Tyranids are just cockroaches feasting on the corpses of all the factions and they wouldn't stand a chance in hell if all the factions haven't completely gimped themselves?
Not even vaguely. Tyranids have, effectively, already won. (Barring necron superscience miracles (not just superweapons) or some other pull from some place the sun don't shine).
They're endless hordes that grow more numerous and stronger over time, with effectively unlimited resources, and capacity to expand, even when they lose.
GW has made them the overpowered death of the setting, even with their blithe indifference to numbers for everyone else.
Gert wrote: That Man of Iron is the last one. Its race was exterminated after they were beaten by the fleshlings and any more that are found are eradicated for being A.I.
This is really funny. I love the idea that we can declare that the Men of Iron are "gone forever in 40k for good no coming back never ever ever" just because the Imperium said they were. Scientists can only sometimes tell if species of normal animals are extinct or not on our own planet, and we're talking about figuring out if more than one member of a race of hyperintelligent AI exists throughout an entire galaxy while all the people looking for them are insane religious zealots who believe that their laser guns will stop working if they don't pray to them enough. With those facts in mind, forgive me if I don't feel like taking a defined stance on the Men of Iron's status in the 40k universe.
Also, has no one yet pointed out that the Men of Iron not existing anymore doesn't have any bearing on the actual question in the OP? The poster wasn't asking if the Imperium could gather together a bunch of Men of Iron in the current time period and use them to beat up the Tyranids, they were asking if the human race at its strongest in 40k history, back in like the 20th millennium or whatever back when they actually had Men of Iron under control, would be able to defeat the Nids. The point about them being gone would still be irrelevant even if it were provable.
Unit1126PLL wrote: IF only there was a god that could enhance reproduction rate faster than the death rate.
I assume you refer to Grandfather Nurgle?
when I think "worshipping this god will no doubt result in thousands of babies" Nurgle is NOT the first one I think of.
Then I don't know who you might mean. You can't possibly mean Slaanesh because Slaanesh is all about selfish pursuit of excess and pleasure at all costs, even self-destruction. A Slaaneshi worshipper would have no interest in babies other than perhaps using them for sacrificial rituals or as a cosmetic cream.
You must have missed all the couples who WANT BABIES NO MATTER WHAT.
I can think of three different couples in my life that would have like 9 children each if finances and living space and general sanity weren't an option. They're like, obsessed with kids. One family has six already.
Gert wrote: Chaos doesn't only seek to destroy though. The "plan" the Gods laid out for Horus was basically the same as what happened to the Imperium, life would continue but there would be sacrifices and dedications to the Pantheon to keep them sustained for as long as Humanity survived.
But it's not sustainable for several reasons. 1) Chaos is self destructive. You can't have a god of war, violence, and death that gains power the more violence there is and not have a constant loss of life to fuel him. 2) The gods don't play nice with each other. Betrayals and power grabs are inevitable. Then see above. 3) He's not the only god of death. Nurgle for being a god of life isn't a god of sentient life. He spreads plagues and disease. The life that sustains him also succumbs to him. The sensation of having your skin shucked from you like an ear of corn isn't one most life can survive but either inflicting it or experiencing it is where Slaanesh's life style leads to. And Tzneetch for being all about change is actually the most stable. Except with enough change and mutation you become mindless abominations.
Again none of that is sustainable. They are all self destructive. It's not an if, it's a when - IF they were to win.
The Imperium is honestly just as bad. It's a perverse dystopia that has consistently been described as circling down the drain in an inevitable fashion.
Gert wrote: Chaos doesn't only seek to destroy though. The "plan" the Gods laid out for Horus was basically the same as what happened to the Imperium, life would continue but there would be sacrifices and dedications to the Pantheon to keep them sustained for as long as Humanity survived.
But it's not sustainable for several reasons. 1) Chaos is self destructive. You can't have a god of war, violence, and death that gains power the more violence there is and not have a constant loss of life to fuel him. 2) The gods don't play nice with each other. Betrayals and power grabs are inevitable. Then see above. 3) He's not the only god of death. Nurgle for being a god of life isn't a god of sentient life. He spreads plagues and disease. The life that sustains him also succumbs to him. The sensation of having your skin shucked from you like an ear of corn isn't one most life can survive but either inflicting it or experiencing it is where Slaanesh's life style leads to. And Tzneetch for being all about change is actually the most stable. Except with enough change and mutation you become mindless abominations.
Again none of that is sustainable. They are all self destructive. It's not an if, it's a when - IF they were to win.
The Imperium is honestly just as bad. It's a perverse dystopia that has consistently been described as circling down the drain in an inevitable fashion.
Agreed! But I don't think anyone in this thread is arguing that humanity has an actual chance of winning 40k.
Unit1126PLL wrote: IF only there was a god that could enhance reproduction rate faster than the death rate.
I assume you refer to Grandfather Nurgle?
when I think "worshipping this god will no doubt result in thousands of babies" Nurgle is NOT the first one I think of.
Then I don't know who you might mean. You can't possibly mean Slaanesh because Slaanesh is all about selfish pursuit of excess and pleasure at all costs, even self-destruction. A Slaaneshi worshipper would have no interest in babies other than perhaps using them for sacrificial rituals or as a cosmetic cream.
You must have missed all the couples who WANT BABIES NO MATTER WHAT.
I can think of three different couples in my life that would have like 9 children each if finances and living space and general sanity weren't an option. They're like, obsessed with kids. One family has six already.
Irrelevant. They are not Slaaneshi worshippers. A true worshipper of Slaanesh is not going to be raising babies. Slaanesh is not a god of reproduction. Slaanesh is a god of excess and pursuit of pleasure without regard to any inhibitions of morality.
Nurgle is the god of disease, decay, and fecundity in the midst of decay (as well as the psychological perseverance in the face of futility).
Unit1126PLL wrote: IF only there was a god that could enhance reproduction rate faster than the death rate.
I assume you refer to Grandfather Nurgle?
when I think "worshipping this god will no doubt result in thousands of babies" Nurgle is NOT the first one I think of.
Then I don't know who you might mean. You can't possibly mean Slaanesh because Slaanesh is all about selfish pursuit of excess and pleasure at all costs, even self-destruction. A Slaaneshi worshipper would have no interest in babies other than perhaps using them for sacrificial rituals or as a cosmetic cream.
You must have missed all the couples who WANT BABIES NO MATTER WHAT.
I can think of three different couples in my life that would have like 9 children each if finances and living space and general sanity weren't an option. They're like, obsessed with kids. One family has six already.
Irrelevant. They are not Slaaneshi worshippers. A true worshipper of Slaanesh is not going to be raising babies. Slaanesh is not a god of reproduction. Slaanesh is a god of excess and pursuit of pleasure without regard to any inhibitions of morality.
Nurgle is the god of disease, decay, and fecundity in the midst of decay (as well as the psychological perseverance in the face of futility).
I don't see why "pursuing what gives you pleasure" automatically means you can't have kids, if kids are where you derive pleasure.
Chaos worlds in the Eye of Terror have stable populations that do normal things like industry and commerce. The book Path of the Outcast involves a visit to an old Eldar Crone World, and there are people doing people things, and the book Atlas Infernal also follows an inquisitor visiting a Daemon World called Arach-Cyn. There's literally a marketplace there, where Chaos Eldar and human cultists are selling their gubbins just like a merchant on a craftworld or imperial world might.
Your idea of Chaos methinks is tainted a bit too much by Imperial propaganda.
Unit1126PLL wrote: IF only there was a god that could enhance reproduction rate faster than the death rate.
I assume you refer to Grandfather Nurgle?
when I think "worshipping this god will no doubt result in thousands of babies" Nurgle is NOT the first one I think of.
Then I don't know who you might mean. You can't possibly mean Slaanesh because Slaanesh is all about selfish pursuit of excess and pleasure at all costs, even self-destruction. A Slaaneshi worshipper would have no interest in babies other than perhaps using them for sacrificial rituals or as a cosmetic cream.
You must have missed all the couples who WANT BABIES NO MATTER WHAT.
I can think of three different couples in my life that would have like 9 children each if finances and living space and general sanity weren't an option. They're like, obsessed with kids. One family has six already.
Irrelevant. They are not Slaaneshi worshippers. A true worshipper of Slaanesh is not going to be raising babies. Slaanesh is not a god of reproduction. Slaanesh is a god of excess and pursuit of pleasure without regard to any inhibitions of morality.
Nurgle is the god of disease, decay, and fecundity in the midst of decay (as well as the psychological perseverance in the face of futility).
I don't see why "pursuing what gives you pleasure" automatically means you can't have kids, if kids are where you derive pleasure.
Chaos worlds in the Eye of Terror have stable populations that do normal things like industry and commerce. The book Path of the Outcast involves a visit to an old Eldar Crone World, and there are people doing people things, and the book Atlas Infernal also follows an inquisitor visiting a Daemon World called Arach-Cyn. There's literally a marketplace there, where Chaos Eldar and human cultists are selling their gubbins just like a merchant on a craftworld or imperial world might.
Your idea of Chaos methinks is tainted a bit too much by Imperial propaganda.
It's from the Realms of Chaos omniscient narrator, and the first books that actually laid down what the Chaos gods were about.
Path of the Outcast had them visiting a deserted Eldar Crone world, deserted except for daemons and the ghosts of those Eldar from the Fall.
Your ideas of Slaanesh being a god that would boost reproduction seem to be tainted by the pop culture idea of Slaanesh as a god of sex. Nurgle's the one you should be looking at.
One reason Tryanids can sometimes appear to be weaker is because they don't care about losses and have no voice of their own in the lore.
First up if GW wants a character to appear REALLY tough they go and fight a Hive Tyrant one on one and survive/win. If they want to appear supremely tough they go and fight the Swarmlord.
Basically Tyranids don't care if either of those lose; they can make more Hive Tyrants and the Swarm Lord is in effect immortal so long as the Hive remains.
So they can be defeated in battle over and over and over again and it doesn't affect the Tyranids at all really.
Meanwhile the lore for Tyranids is always written either as a narrators voice or the viewpoints of individuals within the setting. This both means that htey never really have a story about themselves to "big themselves up" as many other factions do; but also means that they can have huge chunks of lore that are just wrong because its an Imperial Scientists viewpoint on how they Tryanids work. Indeed we don't really know much about them at all - save that they feed, though even that isn't as simple as some make out.
Overread wrote: One reason Tryanids can sometimes appear to be weaker is because they don't care about losses and have no voice of their own in the lore.
Although a lot of GW fiction depicts various factions as winning battles against Tyranids, in the grand scheme (i.e. galactic scale) the Tyranids are shown as making inroads and gaining ground. Yes, I know these are newly made up worlds and sectors but it shows on the Imperium and galactic scale, the Tyranids to be playing a grand game of attrition.
For every novel where the Tyranids are beaten back, there are many other small worlds that get eaten. These worlds might be insignificant to the Imperium, but a world's worth of biomass is still a huge amount that can be converted to more Tyranids to throw at the next world.
Also, the Tyranids ate Gryphonne IV, which was written by GW as one of the most heavily fortified worlds in the southern Imperium. That would make for a good Black Library novel: the tale of the ultimately fall of the forge world and any last fighting retreats by the AdMech to preserve what they can.
Unit1126PLL wrote: IF only there was a god that could enhance reproduction rate faster than the death rate.
I assume you refer to Grandfather Nurgle?
when I think "worshipping this god will no doubt result in thousands of babies" Nurgle is NOT the first one I think of.
Then I don't know who you might mean. You can't possibly mean Slaanesh because Slaanesh is all about selfish pursuit of excess and pleasure at all costs, even self-destruction. A Slaaneshi worshipper would have no interest in babies other than perhaps using them for sacrificial rituals or as a cosmetic cream.
You must have missed all the couples who WANT BABIES NO MATTER WHAT.
I can think of three different couples in my life that would have like 9 children each if finances and living space and general sanity weren't an option. They're like, obsessed with kids. One family has six already.
Irrelevant. They are not Slaaneshi worshippers. A true worshipper of Slaanesh is not going to be raising babies. Slaanesh is not a god of reproduction. Slaanesh is a god of excess and pursuit of pleasure without regard to any inhibitions of morality.
Nurgle is the god of disease, decay, and fecundity in the midst of decay (as well as the psychological perseverance in the face of futility).
I don't see why "pursuing what gives you pleasure" automatically means you can't have kids, if kids are where you derive pleasure.
Chaos worlds in the Eye of Terror have stable populations that do normal things like industry and commerce. The book Path of the Outcast involves a visit to an old Eldar Crone World, and there are people doing people things, and the book Atlas Infernal also follows an inquisitor visiting a Daemon World called Arach-Cyn. There's literally a marketplace there, where Chaos Eldar and human cultists are selling their gubbins just like a merchant on a craftworld or imperial world might.
Your idea of Chaos methinks is tainted a bit too much by Imperial propaganda.
It's from the Realms of Chaos omniscient narrator, and the first books that actually laid down what the Chaos gods were about.
Path of the Outcast had them visiting a deserted Eldar Crone world, deserted except for daemons and the ghosts of those Eldar from the Fall.
Your ideas of Slaanesh being a god that would boost reproduction seem to be tainted by the pop culture idea of Slaanesh as a god of sex. Nurgle's the one you should be looking at.
Slaanesh IS the god of sex, among other things.
Want more sources on Daemon Worlds having stable populations?
Here is a whole thread on it from this very forum:https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/587398.page
Daemon Worlds have cities, histories, civilizations, technology, social structures, etc. Do your own research if you don't believe me!
Slaanesh is the god of pleasure, of which sex and carnal pleasure is just a facet and the focus is on the pleasure not procreation. Bear in mind this is the kind of "pleasure" that at its extremes is likely to result in the death one or more of the participants. Slaanesh is not the god of reproduction.
Also a forum thread is not a citation and is not really evidence.
Yes there are daemon worlds where daemon princes and daemon primarchs rule over feral slave populations, where the warriors are recruited to become fresh CSM. Feral populations on barely inhabitable inhospitable worlds however is hardly a convincing argument for thriving populations.
That is irrelevant to your point where you tried to use a specific Eldar novel as evidence, when in fact that novel showed a deserted world.
And I offered the other thread because *it* lists sources so I don't have to. If you won't educate yourself, I don't have time to do it for you. But, trust me, there are Daemon Worlds in the warp with functioning societies and stable populations. It's a fact
And I offered the other thread because *it* lists sources so I don't have to. If you won't educate yourself, I don't have time to do it for you. But, trust me, there are Daemon Worlds in the warp with functioning societies and stable populations. It's a fact
Wrong, it's your job to cite evidence to prove your point. It's not the responsibility of the reader or the audience to find your evidence for you. Just waving vaguely at a forum thread is not proof, since forum threads themselves are not direct sources and are prone to all sorts of misinformation (such as the earlier misinformation and mistakes you made about that deserted Crone world).
They have feral populations lorded over by daemons and CSM. Stable? Hardly, when 2nd edition Chaos Codex shows that they get a lot of immigration effectively from people fleeing from the Imperium. A small feral population of tribal warriors living on the daemonic equivalent of a death world with a few CSM overlords in a situation akin to those that loyalist Chapters recruit from is also not really a great example of a thriving society. Sure, I never said the Eye was lifeless, but it is a post-apocalyptic wasteland, and the populations and societies seen are a reflection of that environment.
The reason CSM are fighting from a compromised position is because the Eye simply does not support as much industry and population as the Imperium. That is why so many Chaos armies rely also on uprisings and why so many Chaos forces adopt a raiding strategy rather than one of conventional territorial conquest out of the Eye.
Your facts are not facts at all and have major errors. If you have direct evidence, cite actual GW sources with source names, quotes, and page numbers, not hearsay or forum threads, otherwise stop trying to claim there is such.
And I offered the other thread because *it* lists sources so I don't have to. If you won't educate yourself, I don't have time to do it for you. But, trust me, there are Daemon Worlds in the warp with functioning societies and stable populations. It's a fact
Wrong, it's your job to cite evidence to prove your point. It's not the responsibility of the reader or the audience to find your evidence for you. Just waving vaguely at a forum thread is not proof, since forum threads themselves are not direct sources and are prone to all sorts of misinformation (such as the earlier misinformation and mistakes you made about that deserted Crone world).
They have feral populations lorded over by daemons and CSM. Stable? Hardly, when 2nd edition Chaos Codex shows that they get a lot of immigration effectively from people fleeing from the Imperium. A small feral population of tribal warriors living on the daemonic equivalent of a death world with a few CSM overlords in a situation akin to those that loyalist Chapters recruit from is also not really a great example of a thriving society. Sure, I never said the Eye was lifeless, but it is a post-apocalyptic wasteland, and the populations and societies seen are a reflection of that environment.
The reason CSM are fighting from a compromised position is because the Eye simply does not support as much industry and population as the Imperium. That is why so many Chaos armies rely also on uprisings and why so many Chaos forces adopt a raiding strategy rather than one of conventional territorial conquest out of the Eye.
Your facts are not facts at all and have major errors. If you have direct evidence, cite actual GW sources with source names, quotes, and page numbers, not hearsay or forum threads, otherwise stop trying to claim there is such.
Sorry. I really don't have the time on a workday.
Feel free not to educate yourself; not my responsibility ultimately.
And I offered the other thread because *it* lists sources so I don't have to. If you won't educate yourself, I don't have time to do it for you. But, trust me, there are Daemon Worlds in the warp with functioning societies and stable populations. It's a fact
Wrong, it's your job to cite evidence to prove your point. It's not the responsibility of the reader or the audience to find your evidence for you. Just waving vaguely at a forum thread is not proof, since forum threads themselves are not direct sources and are prone to all sorts of misinformation (such as the earlier misinformation and mistakes you made about that deserted Crone world).
They have feral populations lorded over by daemons and CSM. Stable? Hardly, when 2nd edition Chaos Codex shows that they get a lot of immigration effectively from people fleeing from the Imperium. A small feral population of tribal warriors living on the daemonic equivalent of a death world with a few CSM overlords in a situation akin to those that loyalist Chapters recruit from is also not really a great example of a thriving society. Sure, I never said the Eye was lifeless, but it is a post-apocalyptic wasteland, and the populations and societies seen are a reflection of that environment.
The reason CSM are fighting from a compromised position is because the Eye simply does not support as much industry and population as the Imperium. That is why so many Chaos armies rely also on uprisings and why so many Chaos forces adopt a raiding strategy rather than one of conventional territorial conquest out of the Eye.
Your facts are not facts at all and have major errors. If you have direct evidence, cite actual GW sources with source names, quotes, and page numbers, not hearsay or forum threads, otherwise stop trying to claim there is such.
Sorry. I really don't have the time on a workday.
Feel free not to educate yourself; not my responsibility ultimately.
It's not my responsibility to prove your point for you. That's not how academic writing, persuasive writing, court cases, or debates work. If you have no proof, as it seems you don't by your inability to cite direct sources, then your argument has no weight and can be dismissed.
JohnnyHell wrote: You’ve missed that there are many, many more Tyranids than numbers within the other factions. Their numbers are unknown as we’ve but seen the tips of their Hive Fleet tendrils. They will feast until all are consumed.
Numbers don't matter with infinitely firing super weapons.
Orks are insanely numerous and still increases in number exponentially. If each and every one was a krork who can take out armies of Tyranids by themselves, it's a no contest.
Blackstone Fortress wipes out entire systems in a shot and is powered by farseer souls. If the Tyranids cannot cross an entire system within the time for the Blackstone Fortress to fire again their endless numbers don't matter.
Necrons had stuff comparable if not surpassing the Blackstone fortress.
Similarly, how can Tyranids defend against a blackhole cannon?
The only way Tyranids are not a joke is if they got super weapons and we just haven't seen it yet. Which is plausible because they got that giant psychic continent sized structure and Zoanthropes channel energy directly from the Hive Mind, so it's not a stretch to say they could make a blackstone fortress equivalent that's powered by the hive mind itself and shoots its "awesome energies".
NinthMusketeer wrote: If we are talking peak Old Ones, pre-fall Eldar, or war in heaven Necrons then they could probably deal with Tyranids on something like equal footing. But it still wouldn't be a joke.
Without super weapons of their own they are a total joke.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Assuming the krork were genetically superior 'prime-orks' that would make things worse; Tyranids would obtain those genetics.
Why are there no Tyranids using ork-tech? Or Tyranids using Wraithbone? There seems to be a lot of limitation regarding the genetic absorption thingy. And Tyrant Guards aren't exactly impressive.
NinthMusketeer wrote: IMen of Iron still ultimately lost, so they weren't THAT powerful.
That's like saying the old ones weren't that powerful because they lost. It is my understanding that the war with the men of iron was of similar scale as the war in heaven.
The Tyranid race for all intents and purposes very likely outnumbers every other race combined. Certainly this is the case in terms of creatures at arms. And unlike the various other species, they’re of literally a single mind and purpose.
Numbers don't matter when dealing with super weapons. A couple of men with infinitely firing flamethrowers v.s. all the ants on the planet. Who wins? You gotta somehow show that Tyranids are capable of handling perfectly organized blackstone fortresses firing in tandem.
Voss wrote: Not even vaguely. Tyranids have, effectively, already won. (Barring necron superscience miracles (not just superweapons) or some other pull from some place the sun don't shine).
They're endless hordes that grow more numerous and stronger over time, with effectively unlimited resources, and capacity to expand, even when they lose.
GW has made them the overpowered death of the setting, even with their blithe indifference to numbers for everyone else.
What infinite resources?
84% of the matter in a galaxy is dark matter.
12% is gas
4% is stars
An infinitesimal amount of planets.
Of those infinitesimal amount of planets, an infinitesimal amount of them holds life.
Of those infinitesimal amount of planets that hold life, less than 1% of it is consumed by the Tyranids.
So infinitesimal x infinitesimal x 0.01 x 12 (they consumed a dozen galaxies) = ?
Far from infinite.
I mean, we have ONE source that says Tyranids eat gas giants, so that would mean they can eat 2/3rds of the non-darkmatter galaxy, but the lore is so conflicting regarding Tyranids its far from reliable.
And Imperium of Man and Eldar had super weapons of their own.
Overread wrote: First up if GW wants a character to appear REALLY tough they go and fight a Hive Tyrant one on one and survive/win. If they want to appear supremely tough they go and fight the Swarmlord.
You confused Avatar of Khaine with Hive Tyrant. And Avatars of Khaine always losing is not a good thing for Avatars of Khaine.
The nids FTL is a super weapon. They latch onto a gravitic body and fall through space. It causes natural disasters that ravage the solar system. Eaerhquakes, tidal waves, solar flares.
The whole system becomes a mass hazard. Then the shadow in the warp falls. Psykers of mad and die. Regular men have nightmares that drive them insane. Warp travel becomes impossible.
Well to be fair, what the op is saying is that most other factions have their "back in my day..." type lore that made them very powerful in the past (even though they are not any longer so). Nids don't have such a past that we know of.
This means that the peak power of the nids is what we're currently seeing. Yes there is more stuff coming, but that could be anything: maybe more powerful creatures, maybe simply more of the same, maybe even slow defenceless creatures that eat the barren rocks the fleets leave behind. We simply don't know.
That in turn means that nids at the peak of their power (that we know of; current nids) probably wouldn't have been that big of a challenge to any of the big players at the height of their power, given the ridiculous tech they had available. The nids are really dangerous to the remnants that exist now, but it feels a bit meh to only be a threat to the leftovers.
And I offered the other thread because *it* lists sources so I don't have to. If you won't educate yourself, I don't have time to do it for you. But, trust me, there are Daemon Worlds in the warp with functioning societies and stable populations. It's a fact
Wrong, it's your job to cite evidence to prove your point.
There are forge worlds within the EoT. The Dark Mechanicus is a thing. Chaos being chaos, there's going to be a lot of variety, but if an entire world can be dedicated to industrial capacity, there are going to be functioning societies with semi-stable populations.
Still not sure there about stable populations. The portrayal of Dark Mechanicus worlds seems to have a lot of daemons, daemon engines, and be economically like a rapacious maw consuming raw materials and human fodder (for labor and for sacrifices). The Dark Mechanicus tech-priests might have a stable population. Not so sure about their menu also. All the other Chaos societies within the Eye seem to churn through their lower classes. The Word Bearers’ world for example has been described as teeming with activity but these are slaves toiling to build monuments or participating in rituals. They are basically expended and replaced with more from offworld, either Chaos worshippers or captured slaves.
I think it would depend on the world/ship in question. The forces of Chaos aren't stupid and they don't just kill slaves for no reason. Slaves produce more slaves and even aspirants to be turned into Astartes, it might just depend on whether you get "lucky" and end up on a planet/ship where your masters don't murder you for fun.
Chaos does not kill slaves for no reason but for reasons that may seem horrific or irrational to RL readers. Kill the slave laborers when they are done to use their blood to consecrate the dark monument. Use their souls as payment for daemonic pacts, etc... Kill them to render down for drugs or just for the pleasure of that Slaanesh champion (because to them, their pleasure is a valid enough reason). The emotional anguish and suffering can itself be a goal desirable because daemons want it.
What you don’t seem to see described is the everyday menial life that is seen on Imperial civilized worlds or hive worlds where people trudge through their daily normal life (like seen in Warhammer Crime novels). We see feral world regressed tribal cultures where they fight to gain admission to being implanted as a CSM and we see societies where you are part of the warlord ruling class (or their lackeys) or being expended as fodder for labor or religious reasons (rituals, sacrifices, etc.). Slaves may be kept alive til they get worked to death but that does not mean it is a stable or thriving population.
Iracundus wrote: Chaos does not kill slaves for no reason . . . .
. . . Slaves may be kept alive til they get worked to death . . .
So does the Imperium
I mean, you'll have to define "stable" and "thriving" I suppose. An economy of slave labor is still an economy, and if a place is going to be an industrial hub, some stability is required. When I think "thriving" I'm not really thinking public education and social programs, lol.
shortymcnostrill wrote: Well to be fair, what the op is saying is that most other factions have their "back in my day..." type lore that made them very powerful in the past (even though they are not any longer so). Nids don't have such a past that we know of.
Yeah, we do. The tyranids ate their ENTIRE HOME GALAXY. Now a few worlds, or whatever, but millions or billions of worlds, that probably had empires that presumably rivaled the 40k empires at their (honestly, purely mythological) heights.
This means that the peak power of the nids is what we're currently seeing. Yes there is more stuff coming, but that could be anything: maybe more powerful creatures, maybe simply more of the same, maybe even slow defenceless creatures that eat the barren rocks the fleets leave behind. We simply don't know.
That in turn means that nids at the peak of their power (that we know of; current nids) probably wouldn't have been that big of a challenge to any of the big players at the height of their power, given the ridiculous tech they had available. The nids are really dangerous to the remnants that exist now, but it feels a bit meh to only be a threat to the leftovers.
The big players at the height of their power never wiped out everyone else- each individually failed. The tyranids of today are 'more evolved' (nonsense to say, but that's how the fluff works), more powerful and more numerous from their _galaxy spanning_ success back home. They aren't the remnants. They're the only faction with a track record of success.
Voss wrote: Yeah, we do. The tyranids ate their ENTIRE HOME GALAXY. Now a few worlds, or whatever, but millions or billions of worlds, that probably had empires that presumably rivaled the 40k empires at their (honestly, purely mythological) heights.
The big players at the height of their power never wiped out everyone else- each individually failed. The tyranids of today are 'more evolved' (nonsense to say, but that's how the fluff works), more powerful and more numerous from their _galaxy spanning_ success back home. They aren't the remnants. They're the only faction with a track record of success.
For all we know the 12 galaxies the Tyranids ate didn't have anything close to necron/eldar/orks/golden age imperium.
And the swarmlord, the supposed military leader of the swarm, is getting his ass kicked regularly by literally every faction. Overfiend of octarius kicked his ass. Yeah, yeah he won after he got reinforcements and weakened the overfiend but that's just it. He loses 1v1 to an ork.
Voss wrote: Yeah, we do. The tyranids ate their ENTIRE HOME GALAXY. Now a few worlds, or whatever, but millions or billions of worlds, that probably had empires that presumably rivaled the 40k empires at their (honestly, purely mythological) heights.
The big players at the height of their power never wiped out everyone else- each individually failed. The tyranids of today are 'more evolved' (nonsense to say, but that's how the fluff works), more powerful and more numerous from their _galaxy spanning_ success back home. They aren't the remnants. They're the only faction with a track record of success.
For all we know the 12 galaxies the Tyranids ate didn't have anything close to necron/eldar/orks/golden age imperium.
And the swarmlord, the supposed military leader of the swarm, is getting his ass kicked regularly by literally every faction. Overfiend of octarius kicked his ass. Yeah, yeah he won after he got reinforcements and weakened the overfiend but that's just it. He loses 1v1 to an ork.
You have a misunderstanding of the Swarmlord. The SL isn't a single separate entity just like none of the nids are. The SL is just a fraction of the Hivemind who doesn't care to throw away bodies left and right. Killing the SL is, again, like chipping a nail. It's meaningless. The perspective that the SL is an individual is based on an incorrect imperial understanding that is trying to fathom the unfathomable. It's trying to anthropomorphize something that isn't human, doesn't truly have bodies, and doesn't care when an extension gets killed. It all gets reabsorbed and fired back out anyway. Multiple SLs are active at the same time on multiple battlefields around the galaxy. None of those individual battles matter on any level.
Voss wrote: Yeah, we do. The tyranids ate their ENTIRE HOME GALAXY. Now a few worlds, or whatever, but millions or billions of worlds, that probably had empires that presumably rivaled the 40k empires at their (honestly, purely mythological) heights.
The big players at the height of their power never wiped out everyone else- each individually failed. The tyranids of today are 'more evolved' (nonsense to say, but that's how the fluff works), more powerful and more numerous from their _galaxy spanning_ success back home. They aren't the remnants. They're the only faction with a track record of success.
For all we know the 12 galaxies the Tyranids ate didn't have anything close to necron/eldar/orks/golden age imperium.
By that logic, we don't 'know' that those golden ages were all that impressive. Its mythology, not fact. Mythology of fiction no less, which means you're dealing with codex POV propaganda, made up wholesale to show off a faction in the best possible light for marketing sales, rather have any historic weight or sociological purpose.
There is no reason to think there weren't opponents or challenges in those galaxies, as otherwise it does nothing but undermine the threat of the tyranids to even mention them. That's very bizarre logic. Oh no, the Great Devourer of... some space cows and whatever. Scary, scary. That doesn't have any narrative weight at all.
And the swarmlord, the supposed military leader of the swarm, is getting his ass kicked regularly by literally every faction. Overfiend of octarius kicked his ass. Yeah, yeah he won after he got reinforcements and weakened the overfiend but that's just it. He loses 1v1 to an ork.
Lance covered this well, but also, it narratively doesn't matter if tyanid organisms die. Losing Swarmlords is meaningless- it lets heroes of other factions shine while the tyranids temporarily lose some biomass, maybe (if they don't win in the end, which they often do).
Heroism in the face of the swarm make Special Character X look good, but blunting (not completely defeating) a single hive fleet tendril means sacrificing 50%+ of the manpower of _all_ the blood angel successors (as in Devastation of Baal). That's a losing gaming, every time. And that's with Khorne sending a daemonic army to jump up and down on the invading organisms on one Baal's moons, so one of his favorite greater daemons doesn't lose its pet project. And Roboute and a crusade fleet coming in to clean up the space battle.
All that for a _reprieve_ (a local repreive! In the half of the galaxy they've effectively written off!) from a fraction of the hive fleets.
---
The funny thing is, I hate the direction they went with the tyranids. They're too big, too galaxy ending, too setting ending, and the old Cruddace codex took the fluff way too far, as the inevitable, unstoppable end to everything.
The tyranids seeding 'nest planets' and trying to expand for resources on a local sector level works a lot better- a constant background threat rather than unstoppable force that's just going to eat the galaxy, and can devour everything in its path.
Iracundus wrote: Chaos does not kill slaves for no reason . . . .
. . . Slaves may be kept alive til they get worked to death . . .
So does the Imperium
I mean, you'll have to define "stable" and "thriving" I suppose. An economy of slave labor is still an economy, and if a place is going to be an industrial hub, some stability is required. When I think "thriving" I'm not really thinking public education and social programs, lol.
I do actually. For example, some of the more recent Black Library novels such as the Warhammer Crime stuff about the city of Vargantua are basically gritty cop novels. You see people live everyday lives, grumble about trivial everyday things, and things like public education, street maintenance, and how their daughter did at the local academy. Even though their lives may be drudgery, the average person on that world is not a slave even though they may just be working a menial job in a textile mill, and there is a societal framework in place that is in theory and in propaganda meant to service them. It is a society that while unpleasant seems capable of persisting on its own and sustaining a large population without constant inputs of immigrants from outside.
We don't see that kind of ordered society on the daemon worlds of the Eye of Terror. We see feral tribes of low population scratching a subsistence existence and fighting to be chosen to be a CSM. We see slaves being worked to death and sacrificed, while presumably living a labor camp/concentration camp kind of life while waiting for that. Dark Mechanicus forge worlds have their mad scientist types shovelling souls and human flesh into the furnaces as fuel for daemonic engines and pacts. These are worlds that are sustained by imports of human population because they go through them so quickly. In Godblight we see an example of a Nurgle conquered world and it has basically degenerated into a fetid swamp inhabited by a few disease wracked uneducated Nurgle worshipping scavenging humans with a very short lifespan. None of these environments that are so heavily Chaos aligned are exactly conducive for large populations of average baseline humans, not in the way that say a civilized world of the Imperium or a hive world of the Imperium might sustain.
In short, the Imperium's heavily developed worlds do have the social infrastructure to sustain such large populations, even though it is not a nice system. By contrast, we see at best examples of warlordism from the Chaos worlds in the Eye. The local warlord or tech-priest may have a stronghold but outside of those centers of power, it seems there is no complex social infrastructure for the rest of the population, beyond the level of a tribe or maybe that necessary to keep a labor camp going.
I could have sworn that Nurgle had/has created a virus that one of the new books says something along the lines of "even the Tyranids can't stop it" It was along the lines of the GodBlight, but more designed for stopping the Nids.
I don't think anyone takes the Nids as a joke. Every Imperial faction that has dealt with them knows they are not to be underestimated in the slightest. Hell, they even scared the greatest imperial hero ever into crapping his pants and running away....
shortymcnostrill wrote: Well to be fair, what the op is saying is that most other factions have their "back in my day..." type lore that made them very powerful in the past (even though they are not any longer so). Nids don't have such a past that we know of.
This means that the peak power of the nids is what we're currently seeing. Yes there is more stuff coming, but that could be anything: maybe more powerful creatures, maybe simply more of the same, maybe even slow defenceless creatures that eat the barren rocks the fleets leave behind. We simply don't know.
That in turn means that nids at the peak of their power (that we know of; current nids) probably wouldn't have been that big of a challenge to any of the big players at the height of their power, given the ridiculous tech they had available. The nids are really dangerous to the remnants that exist now, but it feels a bit meh to only be a threat to the leftovers.
This, basically.
It doesn't matter how many Hormagants you have when the Necrontyr World Engine rocks up to play, it'll scour the surface clean. What's that? The Hive Fleet could just build a gajillion spaceships instead and blow up the World Engine? That's cool, the Necrontyr will just blow out a light in the Celestial Orrery and wipe out the Hive Fleet, local sun, and everything else in the vicinity.
What's that, your Hive Fleet has just shown up to menace a Maiden World? They're present in such numbers they're drowning out the defenders. Oh well, activate the Fireheart and blow up the planet. Massive Tyranid fleet? Eh, just link a couple of Blackstone forts and wipe the whole system. Anything left over? Well, just drop one of those Black Holes in a Box, it doesn't matter how many or tough they are when they're crumpled into atomic insignificance.
What's that, the Tyranids have rocked up against a unified DAoT Mankind? That's fine, robots can fight instead. Spam them out the factories. Too many Tyranids? Best open the Key of Hel and just let your soldiers effectively get reborn when killed. Shadow in the Warp? No worries, just use a Void Abacus. For that matter, how much void weaponry being lobbed around can a bio-construct absorb? Still not enough? Better activate the Bloodtide, and burst every single Tyranid organism trying to eat anything from the inside.
The tyranids have literally nothing on this sort of power scale. You can probably derive some kind of scenario where any individual minor superweapon is overpowered by a horde, but the major ones don't give a damn how large your Hive Fleet is. Black holes and exploding planets/stars wipe out everything. Something may well be revealed in the future in the Tyranid arsenal which matches these things, but right now, they've got nothing on the elder races at their peak.
Tyranids have one superweapon at present - a planet which they built. Which we've no idea what its going to be used for save for its huge shadow in the warp projection at present.
Which is another aspect of them. Tyranids and Tau are the only two races really pushing their potential. Eldar and Necrons kind of hit peaks and haven't really pushed beyond them for various reasons; The Imperium avoids technology and until vrey recently refused to advance anything at all; Orks are kind of a power-check in that they tend to rise to whatever is needed to have a good fight, but tend to lack really long term goals beyond that. Tyranids on the other hand have no inhibitions to evolving; their main issue is that they tend to be reactive so they have to encounter something; fight it for a while and then evolve a counter to it all the time. Which ultimately works so long as they've a near infinite number of them coming from the dark of space
My own little theory is that the Tyranids aren't actually at the height of their power, but rather desperately starved and just as much on their last legs as every other faction. They were adrift in space for so long that they are severely weakened and almost destroyed. The Hive Mind is frantic, it has a lot to throw at the galaxy because it's easy to make more Tyranids but really these are the last throws of the dice.
I've long thought that what we are seeing are either the vanguard or the main body of invading tyranids attacking in tendrils - designed to soften and weaken the Galaxy. Which is why thye focus on feeding on biomatter on worlds; but don't seem to consumer stars, gas giants or as much mineral material. With a view that they are preserving such high loads for a future final wave of "grazing" ships that graze away the bulk of the galaxy once most casual biomatter (And thus risk) is gone.
I've seen it mentioned quite a lot that the fluff implies the Tyranids may be running away from something "even more terrible" but I can't for the life of me find those references in the official lore.
Esmer wrote: I've seen it mentioned quite a lot that the fluff implies the Tyranids may be running away from something "even more terrible" but I can't for the life of me find those references in the official lore.
It might be a long established fan theory or something from a single sentence in a codex or white dwarf. Most likely a scientist or such presuming possible reasons for why Tyranids are appearing now in the Galaxy. Fleeing from something worse has often been a concept because the way the 40K galaxy is currently setup there isn't much room for new factions to arise. Tau kind of arose because the Imperium forgot about them and Eldar are said to have had a guiding hand in them. That said until the mech suits took off in a big way; Tau looked like they'd bascially be the "every other xenos in the galaxy that the Imperium hasn't crushed" kind of faction. It's still there in the lore but so far its not really been a big part of the model line. Heck I (and others) wonder if they might split like Tyranids and Genestealer Cults -creating a core Tau army that focuses on mechs and a "Tau Auxiliaries/allies" type army that likely has a Kroot core and which is then comprised of multiple xenos species.
Voss wrote: Yeah, we do. The tyranids ate their ENTIRE HOME GALAXY. Now a few worlds, or whatever, but millions or billions of worlds, that probably had empires that presumably rivaled the 40k empires at their (honestly, purely mythological) heights.
The big players at the height of their power never wiped out everyone else- each individually failed. The tyranids of today are 'more evolved' (nonsense to say, but that's how the fluff works), more powerful and more numerous from their _galaxy spanning_ success back home. They aren't the remnants. They're the only faction with a track record of success.
For all we know the 12 galaxies the Tyranids ate didn't have anything close to necron/eldar/orks/golden age imperium.
And the swarmlord, the supposed military leader of the swarm, is getting his ass kicked regularly by literally every faction. Overfiend of octarius kicked his ass. Yeah, yeah he won after he got reinforcements and weakened the overfiend but that's just it. He loses 1v1 to an ork.
A bit of a tangent, but do we know for sure they ate even a single galaxy? Honest question, as I remember them devouring one or more galaxies simply being one of a couple of Imperial theories on where they come from (the nids possibly fleeing from something worse was also mentioned). All I read was the codexes though (they're what got me into 40k, a long time ago).
Voss wrote: Yeah, we do. The tyranids ate their ENTIRE HOME GALAXY. Now a few worlds, or whatever, but millions or billions of worlds, that probably had empires that presumably rivaled the 40k empires at their (honestly, purely mythological) heights.
The big players at the height of their power never wiped out everyone else- each individually failed. The tyranids of today are 'more evolved' (nonsense to say, but that's how the fluff works), more powerful and more numerous from their _galaxy spanning_ success back home. They aren't the remnants. They're the only faction with a track record of success.
For all we know the 12 galaxies the Tyranids ate didn't have anything close to necron/eldar/orks/golden age imperium.
And the swarmlord, the supposed military leader of the swarm, is getting his ass kicked regularly by literally every faction. Overfiend of octarius kicked his ass. Yeah, yeah he won after he got reinforcements and weakened the overfiend but that's just it. He loses 1v1 to an ork.
A bit of a tangent, but do we know for sure they ate even a single galaxy? Honest question, as I remember them devouring one or more galaxies simply being one of a couple of Imperial theories on where they come from (the nids possibly fleeing from something worse was also mentioned). All I read was the codexes though (they're what got me into 40k, a long time ago).
We know nothing of their past.
We don't actually know all that much of their current either, we know the Tyranids consume but beyond that nothing. What reasons they have for what they do are often given as basic instinct type answers. Like a Victorian view on the animal kingdom in general. We don't even really know the mental structure of the Hive Mind nor if any of its Norn Queens or other spawns can show true individual thought or agancy within the Swarm nor how they can sever and relink to the hive mind as things happen. The closest we have on that is a sense that the Swarm Lord has some "anger/concern" about some foes that have defeated it.
Tyranids are honestly a huge mystery in all that they are, do and once were. All we really know is how they behave and even that can be subject to variety and change which can be baffling when we've no clue as to their true goals or intentions.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: My theory with krorks is that they’re the exact same genetically as orks, they just had access to the best fight that ever happened. When orks fight more, they get bigger, stronger, but also smarter. Krorks are just way bigger, way stronger, and way smarter orks, so I think it was just the level of fight they got that made em crazy.
Also they were likely armed and supplied by Old One manufacturing.
That would explain the ornate armor one was wearing in Trazyn's (sp) zoo.
To the question, we don't really know do we.
In older fluff, the Krork and Eldar were pushing back the Necrontyr when the beholders (whatever they are called) infestation occurred. But regardless, both were very powerful. Blackstones can wipe out fleets.
DAOT humanity also had lots of candy to play with.
But inversely we are not aware of the true strength of the Nids coming.
shortymcnostrill wrote: A bit of a tangent, but do we know for sure they ate even a single galaxy? Honest question, as I remember them devouring one or more galaxies simply being one of a couple of Imperial theories on where they come from (the nids possibly fleeing from something worse was also mentioned). All I read was the codexes though (they're what got me into 40k, a long time ago).
One of the codices explicitly says a dozen galaxies lay devoured by the Tyranids.
Esmer wrote: I've seen it mentioned quite a lot that the fluff implies the Tyranids may be running away from something "even more terrible" but I can't for the life of me find those references in the official lore.
You can't find it because it actually does not exist. GW has never actually written that or implied that. It is just one of those things people have made up and told and retold as if it were true, without actual citation or reference.
Karak Norn Clansman wrote: Most other factions at their peak would have been Tyranid fodder even under the most favourable circumstances.
The Great Devourer cometh.
Ummmmm, as the reigning king of Hyperbole, I'm calling BS on this. The Necrons have the ability to delete entire stars. I don't think they'd blink at destroying the central hive control ships and then mopping up the insane masses. Also the necrons at their peak could alter star systems.
Tyranid peak power is an unknown quantity though. These tendrils could be the only ones or there could be an truly massive swarm of Tyranids consuming multiple galaxies at the same time.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: My theory with krorks is that they’re the exact same genetically as orks, they just had access to the best fight that ever happened. When orks fight more, they get bigger, stronger, but also smarter. Krorks are just way bigger, way stronger, and way smarter orks, so I think it was just the level of fight they got that made em crazy.
Also they were likely armed and supplied by Old One manufacturing.
That would explain the ornate armor one was wearing in Trazyn's (sp) zoo.
To the question, we don't really know do we.
In older fluff, the Krork and Eldar were pushing back the Necrontyr when the beholders (whatever they are called) infestation occurred. But regardless, both were very powerful. Blackstones can wipe out fleets.
DAOT humanity also had lots of candy to play with.
But inversely we are not aware of the true strength of the Nids coming.
I don’t think that was old one manufactured, (kr)ork tek gets more advanced the bigger the population gets, as well as how big and smart the mek is. If a random mek boy can make a plasma gun that's more powerful than the best of the mechanicus, I’m terrified of what Krorks could make, especially as said by talker in prophets of waaagh because krorks were aware of their gestalt ability.
Lets put it this way - the Silent King fled back to the Galaxy at top speed once he saw the Tyranids. Clearly he's very concerned about them, enough to want to reunite his people under one banner to provide a united front against them.
Esmer wrote: I've seen it mentioned quite a lot that the fluff implies the Tyranids may be running away from something "even more terrible" but I can't for the life of me find those references in the official lore.
It might be a long established fan theory or something from a single sentence in a codex or white dwarf. Most likely a scientist or such presuming possible reasons for why Tyranids are appearing now in the Galaxy. Fleeing from something worse has often been a concept because the way the 40K galaxy is currently setup there isn't much room for new factions to arise.
This, it's an imperial attempt to explain the nids. It's also debunked by Pharos. The Pharos device is the reason the Nids are aware of our galaxy at all and it's the reason they are here.
IIRC one of the codices said Tyranids are unknown, and they could be doing x, y, or z. And z happened to be the "run away from something".
So I think the whole theory of Tyranids running away from something is spawned from a literal half sentence somewhere in one of the codices.
This is exactly what I meant earlier with how this misinformation keeps getting spread and repeated year after year for over 20 years. “I know I read it somewhere but I cannot remember where.”
The answer is this has never been actually said by GW. I have never seen anyone been able to back up this claim with ability to quote and cite from a GW source. Referring to some other forum post where someone claims to have also read it but conveniently cannot remember or quote it is not proof. In-universe sources are unreliable sources so are not definitive proof.
For what it's worth it's included on page 6 of the 8th edition codex. The same line is also repeated in the 5th and 6th ed codexes.
It is possible that the Tyranids have been preying on galaxies since time immemorial and this is but the latest to feel their predations. Some have even speculated that the Tyranids are in flight from an even greater threat, be it a cosmic disaster or another fearsome race, and have risked the nothingness between galaxies rather than face extinction.
But yeah, it's really just a throwaway line which people have taken and ran with.
That line says only that some have speculated, not that it is true or even likely to be true. Some could have speculated pink unicorns made the Tyranids.
I would actually suggest this is an example of GW feedback and incorporating something that players have been speculating about since 2nd edition. GW has just now made it so that even in-universe some have speculated the same, not that it is true
Overread wrote: Lets put it this way - the Silent King fled back to the Galaxy at top speed once he saw the Tyranids. Clearly he's very concerned about them, enough to want to reunite his people under one banner to provide a united front against them.
The Silent King wants to return the Necrons to flesh and blood again. He can't do that if the Galaxy is wiped clean of organic matter. The Tyranids are a threat to that goal.
Overread wrote: Lets put it this way - the Silent King fled back to the Galaxy at top speed once he saw the Tyranids. Clearly he's very concerned about them, enough to want to reunite his people under one banner to provide a united front against them.
The Silent King wants to return the Necrons to flesh and blood again. He can't do that if the Galaxy is wiped clean of organic matter. The Tyranids are a threat to that goal.
Yes... a threat. That's the point. The premise of this thread (and the 'fleeing something worse' fanon) is that (somehow) the tyranids are bottom tier jokes.
The Supreme Overlord of the Ancient and Most Powerful alien race with magic science superweapons Noped the Hell Out and started devising brand new countermeasures out of fear of them. That does not make sense if they're just mediocre scavengers or remnants.
Clearly in-universe, tyranids are serious business.
Overread wrote: Lets put it this way - the Silent King fled back to the Galaxy at top speed once he saw the Tyranids. Clearly he's very concerned about them, enough to want to reunite his people under one banner to provide a united front against them.
The Silent King wants to return the Necrons to flesh and blood again. He can't do that if the Galaxy is wiped clean of organic matter. The Tyranids are a threat to that goal.
Yes... a threat. That's the point. The premise of this thread (and the 'fleeing something worse' fanon) is that (somehow) the tyranids are bottom tier jokes.
The Supreme Overlord of the Ancient and Most Powerful alien race with magic science superweapons Noped the Hell Out and started devising brand new countermeasures out of fear of them. That does not make sense if they're just mediocre scavengers or remnants.
Clearly in-universe, tyranids are serious business.
I would prefer if they actually do have the opening stages of Necrons vs Tyranids and them stalemating each other (to avoid their endgames ending the setting), while humanity and the Imperium has to survive in the shadow of these two factions clashing. The Imperium cannot rely on its favorite strategy of using its numerical superiority against the Tyranids (or the Necrons if they awaken). If humanity were taken down a peg and not dominant in the galaxy, there would be more room for xenos vs xenos stories.
Addition:
Warzone Octarius gives the latest updates to the Orks vs Tyranids conflict. Despite some initial setbacks due to a temporary Khornate daemon invasion that weakened the Tyranids, which the Orks took advantage of, the Tyranids made a comeback and overwhelmed the other worlds of the Octarius system. On Octarius itself, the Overfiend initially slew the Swarmlord but a new iteration of the Swarmlord was spawned, and after using the resources from the other consumed worlds, the Swarmlord wore down the Orks through massive attrition, expending even its elite organisms like it would expend Termagants, and killed the Overfiend after slicing the hydraulic cables that enabled movement of the Overfiend's klaw. Kryptman spies reported that no less than 6 Orks have since declared themselves the new Overfiend and now the Orks seem to fight among themselves and the Tyranids, which led to Kryptman's source concluding the Tyranids now have the upper hand and are on track for consuming Octarius.
My only personal nitpick with that narrative is in typical 40K fashion it went down to a duel between the Swarmlord and the Overfiend. I think it would have been more in character for the Tyranids to not resort to such individualistic "personal" means. The Tyranids were described as literally covering Ork booby-trapped and weaponized mountains with acidic vomit from bioships. If I were the writer, I would have had the Tyranids lure the Overfiend into what he thinks is going to be a duel and then dump a massive orbital barrage of acid to completely smother the battle field in a sea of acid, sacrificing the ground swarm in the process (to show how the Hive Mind cares not about individual organisms, not even its Swarmlord). An alternative might be to have a Ramsmiter Kraken do a suicide dive into the atmosphere and impact the battlefield. The Hive Mind is not supposed to do duels (the Iyanden Avatar's challenge to a duel was instead met with a dozen Carnifexes).
Maybe after eating so many orks it just instinctively challenged the warboss to a 1 on 1 for supremacy?
A lot of 40k can be asked “why not orbital bombardment?” It makes sense on so many levels. But 40k is not about being sane. It’s about being cinematic and cool.
But you are correct. The hive mind does not care about the individuals, only the results. And has no sense of honor.
Orbital Bombardment isn't cheap and most of the orbital weapons we see tend to have quite significant fallout and side effects. Yes you can burn whole worlds to secure them, but then you've got to spend a fortune rebuilding the world to make it functional again. Plus with the way technology works there are many buildings the Imperium might not know how to rebuild or how to restore their original function to its former glory. Tech resources that are limited.
Heck the Imperium did conduct a huge orbital bombardment campaign clearing worlds ahead of the Hive Fleet and - people didn't like it.
In general it meant that whole worlds were sacrificed, whole territories lost and it might take generations to reclaim those worlds and have them profitable and productive and able to support populations.
Meanwhile the Tyranids sustained themselves. Which is the issue; a creeping retreat is just that, it might buy you a little time but its not actually going to stop them.
Tyranids can also adapt to harsh conditions on worlds very quickly and without apparent need to spend excessive resources to do that. So burning worlds might strip them of easy food, but it doesn't stop the Tyranids taking and using them if they need too.
Overread wrote: Orbital Bombardment isn't cheap and most of the orbital weapons we see tend to have quite significant fallout and side effects. Yes you can burn whole worlds to secure them, but then you've got to spend a fortune rebuilding the world to make it functional again. Plus with the way technology works there are many buildings the Imperium might not know how to rebuild or how to restore their original function to its former glory. Tech resources that are limited.
Heck the Imperium did conduct a huge orbital bombardment campaign clearing worlds ahead of the Hive Fleet and - people didn't like it.
In general it meant that whole worlds were sacrificed, whole territories lost and it might take generations to reclaim those worlds and have them profitable and productive and able to support populations.
Meanwhile the Tyranids sustained themselves. Which is the issue; a creeping retreat is just that, it might buy you a little time but its not actually going to stop them.
Tyranids can also adapt to harsh conditions on worlds very quickly and without apparent need to spend excessive resources to do that. So burning worlds might strip them of easy food, but it doesn't stop the Tyranids taking and using them if they need too.
The point was about Tyranids. They don't care about rebuilding worlds. It might have been more in character IMO for the Tyranids to have slathered the battlefield in acid instead of a duel, since they were shown to do just that a page earlier with Ork mountains, or to hurl a sacrificial bioship at the battlefield to ensure death of the Overfiend. By that point the Orks did not have enough anti-orbital defenses to stop Tyranids from landing or bombarding. It would have contrasted against the Orks and the individualism of their leaders.
A lot of 40k can be asked “why not orbital bombardment?” It makes sense on so many levels. But 40k is not about being sane. It’s about being cinematic and cool.
Duels between leaders have been done so many times already and even in the same book, Helbrecht already fought a duel against another Ork leader.
Having the Overfiend fight and think he's going to get a duel only to then be smothered by a sea of acid from orbit or a kamikaze bioship is cinematic IMO. Just think of the opening cinematic from Starcraft 2 Heart of the Swarm (which might as well be a Tyranid attack), where the ship crashes down on the battlefield, only this time imagine it is the Tyranid ship that crashes down on purpose.
A lot of 40k can be asked “why not orbital bombardment?” It makes sense on so many levels. But 40k is not about being sane. It’s about being cinematic and cool.
Well in the Tyranids case the answer to that question seems easy. Orbital bombardment unnecessarily cooks off otherwise very tasty biomass. So instead of bombardment, the Hive Mind deploys 100,000,000,000 hungry mouths to the surface. If 90% of them die, it will just grow and send more mouths.
Overread wrote: Lets put it this way - the Silent King fled back to the Galaxy at top speed once he saw the Tyranids. Clearly he's very concerned about them, enough to want to reunite his people under one banner to provide a united front against them.
The Silent King wants to return the Necrons to flesh and blood again. He can't do that if the Galaxy is wiped clean of organic matter. The Tyranids are a threat to that goal.
Yes... a threat. That's the point. The premise of this thread (and the 'fleeing something worse' fanon) is that (somehow) the tyranids are bottom tier jokes.
The Supreme Overlord of the Ancient and Most Powerful alien race with magic science superweapons Noped the Hell Out and started devising brand new countermeasures out of fear of them. That does not make sense if they're just mediocre scavengers or remnants.
Clearly in-universe, tyranids are serious business.
Again, the premise of the thread is that nids seem relatively weak compared to the other factions *at the peak of their power*, not currently now they're all in decline. Currently the nids are plenty threatening!
Somehow this keeps getting missed. I actually thought it's an interesting point, I've been playing them since late second but never considered that before now.
Even "peak" factions are still only galactic level powers, while Tyranids are free to expand through the cosmos. That means even "peak" factions are limited to one galaxy of resources for their use, while Tyranids are hypothetically unlimited, infinite. I mean, even the concept of using the Celestial Orrery has an inherent flaw, there is a limited amount of stars in the galaxy. We cannot assert that the Tyranids are equally limited.
And of course, there is a reason why we call them "at their peak", all those civilizations fell to time and decay: a few million years was enough to ground the greatest of the galaxy civilizations into dust. The Tyranids do not share those flaws, time has little value to them.
And I'm not just stating these ideas, they are actually old in the Tyranid lore.
The Tyranids had found the only possible remedy for this. They moved from galaxy to galaxy, harvesting fresh, newly evolved DNA with which to renew and reinvigorate their own. They were the universe's ultimate life form. Quite possibly they had existed forever and would continue to exist forever. Quite possibly the universe contained an infinite number of hive fleets.
The Imperium of Man had beaten off one hive fleet. Perhaps it could beat off others. It would be a rare reversal for the Tyranids, but that did not matter at all. In a few million years the Imperium would be gone, the human race would be gone, and some other hive fleet would arrive, meeting weaker resistance, and would leave the galaxy lifeless and desolate.
Then, a few billion years later, life would evolve all over again, on millions of planets.
And again a hive fleet would move in....
He would try to persuade Drenthan Drews to join the Imperial Guard and help defend the Imperium. Hive Fleet Kraken had to be repelled or humanity was doomed.
Not that the outcome was of any importance to the Tyranids. To them, species evolved and perished like blades of grass. Galaxies condensed, blazed, then guttered out. The supposedly immortal Chaos gods would not even last that long. They would perish when the psyches which sustained them died out.
Only the Tyranids lasted forever.
Now these quotes are from Hive Fleet Horror, which I believe is from 2000, which is 3rd edition lore. Back then Kraken was the big bad hive fleet and Leviathan had yet to make its debut in 4th edition. But it is one of the few pieces of lore that addresses the implications of the Tyranids' extra-galactic nature.
Overread wrote: Lets put it this way - the Silent King fled back to the Galaxy at top speed once he saw the Tyranids. Clearly he's very concerned about them, enough to want to reunite his people under one banner to provide a united front against them.
The Silent King wants to return the Necrons to flesh and blood again. He can't do that if the Galaxy is wiped clean of organic matter. The Tyranids are a threat to that goal.
Yes... a threat. That's the point. The premise of this thread (and the 'fleeing something worse' fanon) is that (somehow) the tyranids are bottom tier jokes.
The Supreme Overlord of the Ancient and Most Powerful alien race with magic science superweapons Noped the Hell Out and started devising brand new countermeasures out of fear of them. That does not make sense if they're just mediocre scavengers or remnants.
Clearly in-universe, tyranids are serious business.
Again, the premise of the thread is that nids seem relatively weak compared to the other factions *at the peak of their power*, not currently now they're all in decline. Currently the nids are plenty threatening!
Somehow this keeps getting missed. I actually thought it's an interesting point, I've been playing them since late second but never considered that before now.
It isn't missed. The peak of various races' mythological powers seems unimpressive compared to the Hive Fleets, which have successfully wiped out a galaxy or twelve. Necron and Eldar 'peak achievements' are failure.
Formosa wrote: we have a HH short story where a man of iron helps the Ad mech destroy the dark mech, the man of iron being an AI just put itself into the machines it wanted to control, now we know they do not need a body it opens up the chance that others exist.
as for the gods, you could destroy the 40k universe and they would not care, they are a multiversal threat not tied directly to the 40k universe.
They kind of say and imply that. But if it was fully true, why don't the legions bound to the chaos gods show up in Fantasy and start blasting people with chaos infused bolters? Where are the demon engines? A plague crawler doesn't actually give a gak if it's attacking the 40k universe or the fantasy one.
This
doesn't give a single gak what it's killing. It's just happy to be killing. Why is it not showing up everywhere?
Because the gods are multiversal, not their mortal followers with a couple of exceptions like Archaon, we have Demon engines crossing reality as well as demonic creatures such as the mutalith.
The fantasy universe is not in the 40k one but the warp touches both
It isn't missed. The peak of various races' mythological powers seems unimpressive compared to the Hive Fleets, which have successfully wiped out a galaxy or twelve. Necron and Eldar 'peak achievements' are failure.
I don't see how annihilating a galaxy or two is more impressive than being able to control stars themselves and use them as a fuel or a natural weapon. I don't see how it's more impressive than being able to withstand, defeat and then imprison what's possibly the oldest race that ever existed and imprison them into shards to use them as incredibly potent war slaves. Both Eldar and Necrons had literal control of natural matter and energy of the universe.
Give Orks sufficient numbers and evolution and I'll guarantee you they'll be a far more deadlier threat than nids could ever hope to be. But that's all Nids can offer. Destruction. Even Orks with enough of cultural evolution are capable of sustainment.
It isn't missed. The peak of various races' mythological powers seems unimpressive compared to the Hive Fleets, which have successfully wiped out a galaxy or twelve. Necron and Eldar 'peak achievements' are failure.
IDK if this has been said before in this thread, but the tyranids always get pushed back for one simple reason: a victory for the tyranids would spell the end of 40k as a setting. To the tyranids, it's everything or nothing. They don't govern, they don't build, and they don't have any grand plan. They'll just keep coming until everything organic in the galaxy has been consumed.
The closest thing to a victory that the tyranids can achieve (from a meta standpoint, not an in-universe one) is if they manage to establish some sort of permanent "beachhead" in one corner of the galaxy from which they can continue launching attacks. Or perhaps if they perform a tactical retreat after consuming a large amount of organic material and/or significantly weakening one of the major factions.
I'd also wager that every tyrannic war has been a lot costlier for the Imperium than the tyranids.
Tyranids are not a joke. In fact, they are so much not a joke, that the reason they always lose is because the writers of 40k cannot allow them to win. Except maybe in a "what-if" scenario similar to the End Times of Warhammer Fantasy.
I mean that's the same reason every major Ork Wargh falls apart; or the Imperium is constantly being torn in too many directions internally and externally to unit; or the Chaos Gods just turn their newest leader into a spoon or something otherwise mad to stop them winning; etc....
Every major faction that "could" arise into a serious singular mega-power has at least one or more repeat major flaws that prevents them rising up.
Cause in the end the lore isn't a story of a Stellaris game; its a story that works with a wargame and the last time GW allowed one faction to win and ended the setting - that was not a popular choice .
Overread wrote: I mean that's the same reason every major Ork Wargh falls apart; or the Imperium is constantly being torn in too many directions internally and externally to unit; or the Chaos Gods just turn their newest leader into a spoon or something otherwise mad to stop them winning; etc....
Every major faction that "could" arise into a serious singular mega-power has at least one or more repeat major flaws that prevents them rising up.
Cause in the end the lore isn't a story of a Stellaris game; its a story that works with a wargame and the last time GW allowed one faction to win and ended the setting - that was not a popular choice .
Its not the same thing. If the imperium of man wins they sit in their corner of the galaxy (they don't actually have the population to inhabit the entire galaxy) and act miserable to their own people.
If the nids win its the end of life for the entire galaxy.
Its not just a difference in scale. Its a difference of kind.
What about Necrons? They'd also wipe out all life. And then probably go back to sleep for a few more millennia and then do it all over again.
Tyranids end-game is different, but in the end most races have potential to win and destroy all others. About the only ones that actually don't are Eldar and Dark Eldar because their numbers are just too low on the Galactic scale; and Tau though their lore is ever changing and in theory they could expand super-fast if they found ways to win over Imperial worlds en-mass.
Lance845 wrote: There are only 2 actual threats to the galaxy in 40k.
Necrons, whos tech is so beyond the scope of everyone else that they could annihilate everything from their diner table while sipping wine. (They have that living star map of the galaxy where they can manipulate celestial bodies in real time by swiping on it like a cell phone including winking stars out of existence.)
And the Tyranids, who eat entire galaxies. Everyone else is so caught up in their petty squabbles they don't even realize the scope of the threat.
People might argue that the chaos gods are also a threat, but if Chaos actually wins and all life is extinguished/falls to the warp then there are no more intelligent creatures to sustain them in the warp and they end up losing anyway. So while yes, bad for everyone, they ultimately cannot win themselves.
Thats it. It only LOOKS like the Tyranids are not such a huge threat because they are looking at all the blood sweat and tears spent defending single systems from them, the sheer scope of the loss to do it, and they think it's a victory. As though they caused real loss and/or damage to the tyranids. As though it wasn't just causing the hive mind to chip a nail.
roboemperor wrote: From my reading it seems like the Tyranids are a total joke compared to all the factions at their peak.
It is my understanding that individual Krorks are stronger than the beast. And every ork was a Krork back in the day. If Octarius is anything to go by, Krorks would seem to stomp the Tyranids hard.
Necrons have one too many super weapons. If all of them are operational and organized with full power C'tan support on top of that, it seems the Tyranids would be as strong as a cockroach v.s. a tank.
Eldar went tit for tat with the Necrons' super weapons with the blackstone fortresses. I don't see how Tyranids could handle system wiping super weapons that completely outranges them.
Men of Iron had what, Blackhole cannons? Sun snuffers? Swarms of little robots that nom faster and better than Tyranids? Seems like they'd do everything the Tyranids do but better.
So is it correct to assume that the Tyranids are just cockroaches feasting on the corpses of all the factions and they wouldn't stand a chance in hell if all the factions haven't completely gimped themselves?
Octarious? Does beach worry if grain of sand is lost? For that is size for tyranids.
All the fleets galaxy has seen is but mere tiny scouting forces...
If there was one existential threat other factions might find common enemy its tyranids who have numbers to devour entire galaxy. Even chaos hates idea. Tyranids is one thing that could get imperium, chaos, eldar, tau and necrons fight together...the only common foe.
It isn't missed. The peak of various races' mythological powers seems unimpressive compared to the Hive Fleets, which have successfully wiped out a galaxy or twelve. Necron and Eldar 'peak achievements' are failure.
I don't see how annihilating a galaxy or two is more impressive than being able to control stars themselves and use them as a fuel or a natural weapon. I don't see how it's more impressive than being able to withstand, defeat and then imprison what's possibly the oldest race that ever existed and imprison them into shards to use them as incredibly potent war slaves. Both Eldar and Necrons had literal control of natural matter and energy of the universe.
Yet both still managed to fail and fall. Apparently 'literal control of matter and energy' doesn't actually mean much. It couldn't give them real, actual control of even part of a galaxy, much less the annihilation of whole galaxies. 100 thousand million stars per galaxy, conservative medium 4-6 planets per star. Unknown percentage lifebearing (probably higher than reality, plus terraforming and stations and who knows what else), all gone. The sheer scale of that with even one galaxy beggars the imagination. Playing tiddlywinks with stars means nothing at this scale.
Tyranids are basically a macro-scale grey goo event, spreading out across the universe.
Give Orks sufficient numbers and evolution and I'll guarantee you they'll be a far more deadlier threat than nids could ever hope to be. But that's all Nids can offer. Destruction. Even Orks with enough of cultural evolution are capable of sustainment.
Ugh. This isn't the 30 second moral from a kids' cartoon in the 80s. Destruction is the point! Hypothetical cultural advancement of the orks as a species is... a really bizarre unrelated tangent.
It's also weird to argue the Tyranids are incapable of sustainment. The Tyranids were awoken from a nap in the dark between galaxies in the middle of the horus heresy. Presumably they didn't wink into existence at that moment. Which means not only did they wipe out their original galaxy and then become pan galactic threats, but they have managed to sustain themselves throughout the vast inconceivable distances between galaxies. The Milky Way is a pit stop on the Tyranids road trip of sustainment.
Formosa wrote: we have a HH short story where a man of iron helps the Ad mech destroy the dark mech, the man of iron being an AI just put itself into the machines it wanted to control, now we know they do not need a body it opens up the chance that others exist.
as for the gods, you could destroy the 40k universe and they would not care, they are a multiversal threat not tied directly to the 40k universe.
They kind of say and imply that. But if it was fully true, why don't the legions bound to the chaos gods show up in Fantasy and start blasting people with chaos infused bolters? Where are the demon engines? A plague crawler doesn't actually give a gak if it's attacking the 40k universe or the fantasy one.
This
doesn't give a single gak what it's killing. It's just happy to be killing. Why is it not showing up everywhere?
Because the gods are multiversal, not their mortal followers with a couple of exceptions like Archaon, we have Demon engines crossing reality as well as demonic creatures such as the mutalith.
The fantasy universe is not in the 40k one but the warp touches both
Is fun because in old fantasy chaos warriors actually had plasma guns as relics...
Which is great for what it used to be. But again, if the Warp touches both, and there are Chaos space marines that live in the warp, then they should be able to be deployed in both. Same goes for the demon engines.
Not just a think on treads. But chain weapons. 40k weaponry. Once the Chaos gods have access to those tools why would they not use those tools?
It isn't missed. The peak of various races' mythological powers seems unimpressive compared to the Hive Fleets, which have successfully wiped out a galaxy or twelve. Necron and Eldar 'peak achievements' are failure.
I don't see how annihilating a galaxy or two is more impressive than being able to control stars themselves and use them as a fuel or a natural weapon. I don't see how it's more impressive than being able to withstand, defeat and then imprison what's possibly the oldest race that ever existed and imprison them into shards to use them as incredibly potent war slaves. Both Eldar and Necrons had literal control of natural matter and energy of the universe.
Give Orks sufficient numbers and evolution and I'll guarantee you they'll be a far more deadlier threat than nids could ever hope to be. But that's all Nids can offer. Destruction. Even Orks with enough of cultural evolution are capable of sustainment.
Tyranids' aspirations are more simple - their own survival by consuming all others. They don't need to wink out stars, kill gods, etc, they just need to eat you and your entire galaxy and then move on to the next one. The fact that they have done that to other galaxies already should actually be horrifying, moreso than the fact that their bio-tech isn't so flashy - it doesn't need to be, they've evolved to perform their purpose perfectly and will continue to do so to overcome all resistance.
The more I read Tyranid lore, the more I think, there's no reason why they can't build a blackstone fortress equivalent themselves. They're actually masters at warp manipulation. Even in BFGA2 they got things like **** huge psychic scream from a gloria-class sized Hive Ship and the ability to teleport short distances.
So put this together, there's no reason why they can't make a **** huge tyranid with a **** huge psychic cannon like the blackstone fortress. I mean they got a **** huge continent sized bioform that kills all psykers just by existing.
So maybe the Tyranids are not a joke. And their super weapons are just deemed unnecessary at this time.
The World Engine was defeated by a single space marine ship kamikaze-ing into it. Tyranids got infinite space marine sized ships.
roboemperor wrote: The more I read Tyranid lore, the more I think, there's no reason why they can't build a blackstone fortress equivalent themselves. They're actually masters at warp manipulation. Even in BFGA2 they got things like **** huge psychic scream from a gloria-class sized Hive Ship and the ability to teleport short distances.
So put this together, there's no reason why they can't make a **** huge tyranid with a **** huge psychic cannon like the blackstone fortress. I mean they got a **** huge continent sized bioform that kills all psykers just by existing.
So maybe the Tyranids are not a joke. And their super weapons are just deemed unnecessary at this time.
The World Engine was defeated by a single space marine ship kamikaze-ing into it. Tyranids got infinite space marine sized ships.
They could probably make a planetkiller - if it weren't for the fact that destroying a planet would destroy all the biomass and therefore render it useless to themselves. This makes it extremely unlikely.
The thing to understand about Tyranid evolution is that it is intrinsically reactive. If they come across a world filled with life but no defenders, it just spams out monsters to eat, consume, and generally devour every last thing. If it runs into species with swords and armour, it'll make something with a claw strong enough to go through armour. If it runs into things with guns, it makes ranged xenoforms. If the things with guns deploy trench defences, it evolved something to help the gribblies cross trenches, and so on.
The intent, whatever lifeform based weapon is produced, is for that lifeform to help it overcome whatever resistance is being posed to the absorption of biomass. And then to re-absorb that weapon as excess biomass after its use is past.
Blowing up planets is consequently of little use or worth to the Tyranid. Likewise detonating stars or dropping black holes. It's essentially self-defeating. Even if they could somehow develop the means to do so biologically (unlikely for things like black holes), they wouldn't want to. They're actually more restrained than most sentient races in this regard.
This also makes it very difficult for the Tyranid to come up with a hard counter against super-weapons beyond 'swarm it with gribbles and hope to disable it before it can go off' (a not unfamiliar strategy for the Imperium also). If I blow up a planet, the Tyranids cannot somehow magically biologically repair the planet. If I snuff out a star, the Tyranid cannot develop a lifeform to replace it. If I drop a black hole, the Tyranids cannnot bio-engineer a fleshy containment box for it.
The Tyranids, bizarely, are actually the least ruthless party in this regard. Life must go on for them, or it ceases to be. There is simply no Tyranid counter for a scorched earth approach which turns entire star systems upside down.
Ketara wrote: They could probably make a planetkiller - if it weren't for the fact that destroying a planet would destroy all the biomass and therefore render it useless to themselves. This makes it extremely unlikely.
Most planets are "indigestible" to the great devourer so why would it give a **** whether it gets blown to smithereens or not?
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On a different not, I've read that Tyranids go out of their way to avoid the outsider c'tan. Don't know if this is oldcron or newcron but it might signify that Tyranids are in fact a total joke to C'tans? And necrons, being entities that killed C'tans, would be immeasurably more powerful than the Tyranids at their peak?
The thing is with an unknown number of Tyranids in the black of space, a Scorched Earth policy can only work for so long. Even the Imperium, with its casual disregard for its general population (at the large scale) can't even sustain such a policy for very long.
Necrons might be able to for longer as they've a casual disregard for other life and don't really need food or resources like others; however they also have sense of property. They consider the Galaxy to belong to them. Yes they can blow up suns, but they don't want to blow up suns because they own those suns and have better ideas for them.
Thing is the scorched earth only slows Tyranids. It would work if their Hive Ships shows significant signs of suffering and if their reinforcements from space dwindled to nothing; then you could do a scorched earth and starve out the remains. But whilst they have potentially limitless or at least unknown, numbers sill migrating into the galaxy; scorched earth isn't the right move.
Heck even if you scorch every world and every sun there's nothing which says that the Tyranids are "starving". You could sacrifice everything and they just go "Oh no more food, fine next Galaxy." Or you find that what you've dealt with is just one massive tendril of the mass of the Swarm
I wonder if the best counter might actually be rather like dealing with Borg Shields in Star Trek. Constantly keep hitting the Tyranids with variable battle groups and situations. Yes that forces evolution, but at the same time if you keep changing you force the Tyranids to keep changing as well. That said there's at least one story of this happening between Tyranids and Nurgle forces and in the end the Tyranids kept up at an insane rate.
I wasn't talking about scorched earth. I was talking about Tyranids wiping out imperium fleets and then nom planets from there because without orbital superiority the planet is good as dead.
But then I remembered every hive fleet battle, and it always ended in the Tyranids' victory except when some kind of a super weapon was involved. magnovitrium. That warp drive thing. So it makes sense that the Tyranids wouldn't use a planet killer in these situations because why would they? They got the superior fleet.
And then i realized, wtf am I talking about right now? Tyranids don't need a planet killer at this time because their hive fleets are the strongest fleets in WH40katm.
And then back to the original discussion, if Tyranids can build planet killers they're probably NOT a joke to every faction at their peak. But if they can't then they most certainly are.
Problem is that we haven't read about what Tyranids at their peak are capable of. Single characters beating the SL is really not too important, because wars are won on the macro level, where Nids are formidable with near infinite sustainability, FTL travel and the shadow in the warp blocking most of the supernatural abilities that might help contest them. And that's their current – presumably toned down – iteration in the manufactured stalemate that is 40k. Taken to their logical extreme, they should "win" 40k.
On a different not, I've read that Tyranids go out of their way to avoid the outsider c'tan. Don't know if this is oldcron or newcron but it might signify that Tyranids are in fact a total joke to C'tans? And necrons, being entities that killed C'tans, would be immeasurably more powerful than the Tyranids at their peak?
Well to be fair the necrons didn't defeat the outsider either. Like a lot of war in heaven stuff the lore on it is a little fuzzy. But it seems to be the one C'tan that wasn't broken into shards, as it became too powerful to beat after cannibalizing so many of its brethren. But fortunately it instead went insane, and went off to live in a self imposed exile.
BertBert wrote: Problem is that we haven't read about what Tyranids at their peak are capable of. Single characters beating the SL is really not too important, because wars are won on the macro level, where Nids are formidable with near infinite sustainability, FTL travel and the shadow in the warp blocking most of the supernatural abilities that might help contest them. And that's their current – presumably toned down – iteration in the manufactured stalemate that is 40k. Taken to their logical extreme, they should "win" 40k.
I like the theory I read somewhere that the tyranids were running away from something much worse and only stooped in the galaxy to eat.
BertBert wrote: Problem is that we haven't read about what Tyranids at their peak are capable of. Single characters beating the SL is really not too important, because wars are won on the macro level, where Nids are formidable with near infinite sustainability, FTL travel and the shadow in the warp blocking most of the supernatural abilities that might help contest them. And that's their current – presumably toned down – iteration in the manufactured stalemate that is 40k. Taken to their logical extreme, they should "win" 40k.
I like the theory I read somewhere that the tyranids were running away from something much worse and only stooped in the galaxy to eat.
This fan made up theory has already been debunked earlier in the thread. There isn't any actual evidence for it, and just because individuals within the 40K universe might speculate, that speculation does not mean it is true.
On a different not, I've read that Tyranids go out of their way to avoid the outsider c'tan. Don't know if this is oldcron or newcron but it might signify that Tyranids are in fact a total joke to C'tans? And necrons, being entities that killed C'tans, would be immeasurably more powerful than the Tyranids at their peak?
They don't go out of their way to avoid the Outsider. They tend to steer clear of any sterile Necron worlds as well. It is the same reason that they steer clear of Chaos infested worlds as well (with Kronos being the notable exception as dealing with the warp seems to be its specialization). There is little to gain for the Tyranids even in victory, as Necrons and daemons do not yield biomass and the Tyranids would expend energy and biomass in battle. It is a very straightforward cost-benefit analysis. Why fight battles with no reward when there are so many other softer richer targets to hit?
We have actual codex quotes, how is it fan made up? It's presented as mere speculation, but so is any other theory. I don't see how it's been debunked either. The only thing mentioned in this thread is the Pharos device drawing them to our galaxy (ugh), but that doesn't tell us why they were out there in the first place.
I don't want this to be true any more than you appear to do, don't get me wrong here
Army of full power necrons v.s. existing hive fleets? Necron victory no contest. Necrons win despite Tyranids being "planet killers" themselves.
Tyranids need a blackstone fortress equivalent to not be a total joke to necrons at their peak.
But why?
Destroying a planet is just totally against their general behaviour. Heck on the planetary scale they have built a planet sized structure for purposes we don't yet know (save projecting an insanely huge Shadow in the Warp).
It's just a whole line of thinking that Tyranids don't use. Even many of their projectile weapons are more organic based rather than energy based. They are more likely to create a planet eating super-grub worm that burrows in, sucks out the core and then grows to a huge hive-ship size and cracks the mantel like an egg shell. Their whole mental and physical and behavioural structure is just totally different to the Necrons.
Heck their evolutionary style of warfare and reactive response to new situations means that they generally have tendrils of fleets. Instead of one big super-fleet all in one place they are strung out; one ship encounters an issue and either wins or dies. The genetics from that are then used to enhance other fleets. Yes this means if they have battles with planet killing Necrons who use those weapons, the Tyranids will lose early encounters. However their ability to evolve and react would mean that every single time they lost, they would in fact gain overall. In the end they'd likely develop countermeasures that would allow them to deflect/destroy the Necrons.
So long as Tyranids have near limitless fleets this tactic works.
Because the Blackstone Fortress wipes out an entire SYSTEM in a single shot and there's not a chance in hell that the Tyranids can cross an entire system before the Blackstone Fortress can fire again. The only way Tyranids beat this is if they get a Blackstone Fortress equivalent of their own and takes it out from afar. Or have some ultra strong shadow in the warp that disperses the attack like the geller field shield Cadia used. But this will fail against Necron's weaponry.
I mean, BFGA2 says Tyranid Hive Ships can teleport a short distance but people say video game mechanics don't exist outside the video game so.... I mean, if Tyranids can teleport long distances and close the distance of super weapons then maybe they don't need super weapons of their own. But as it stands they will get utterly pwned by a single Blackstone Fortress let alone an armada of them fully organized and at peak power.
Overread wrote: So long as Tyranids have near limitless fleets this tactic works.
No it doesn't. 1 Blackstone Fortress can take out all known Hive Fleets by itself.
Just check out how the Hive Fleets fought other super weapons.
1. Get utterly pwned by a warp drive.
2. Get utterly pwned by a Magnovitrium
3. Reverse direction of an orbital refinery rigged to blow up and send it back to the Imperium.
Blackstone Fortress is beyond the scope of Magnovitrium.
An individual Blackstone has BFG stats. It is not all powerful (8 lance shots at 90cm, ignoring void shields). That's double the firepower of a Desolator battleship but not a fleet in itself. In fact, Tyranids would do pretty well against it as its shots are less suited against swarms and more for higher value single targets. Also we know that they can be drained of power at least temporarily if their combined shot is interrupted which is exactly what happened in the Gothic War. For the price of a single battlecruiser the Imperium disabled 3 Blackstones.
Even in terms of background, the combined shot of 3 Blackstones that hit the Tarantis system’s star took a full month before it took effect to make the star explode. That is a lot of time to react and do something
The thing is the Tyranids can just go around the Blackstone Fortress. Why attack it when you can just skirt around it. Or attack it from multiple fronts at once.
Overread wrote: The thing is the Tyranids can just go around the Blackstone Fortress. Why attack it when you can just skirt around it. Or attack it from multiple fronts at once.
Exactly. If they have to avoid it and never engage it that means they are a total joke to that weapon which means they are a total joke to the factions who have that scale of a weapon at their peak which is what this topic is discussing.
I doubt multiple fronts work on blackstone fortress because that thing fires pretty quickly for a system wiper.
Overread wrote: The thing is the Tyranids can just go around the Blackstone Fortress. Why attack it when you can just skirt around it. Or attack it from multiple fronts at once.
Exactly. If they have to avoid it and never engage it that means they are a total joke to that weapon which means they are a total joke to the factions who have that scale of a weapon at their peak which is what this topic is discussing.
I doubt multiple fronts work on blackstone fortress because that thing fires pretty quickly for a system wiper.
The Nazi war machine wasn't a joke but it didn't go face to face with the Maginot Line, they went around it. Being powerful in war doesn't mean you have to fight face to face with everything, if you can avoid a super-powered warship that's sitting in a system and instead attack dozens of others its not able to protect (aren't there only 5 or so Blackstone Fortresses over the whole Galaxy?); then go for those other systems. You don't have to face it head-on with an equivalent firepower. Tyranids might swarm it so that its few, but powerful, guns have too many targets; or even just wait for Genestealers and Cultists to infiltrate it and weaken it from the inside out. It might be a powerful gun, but its pretty useless if its crew are all dead; or better cultists who then turn the Fortress upon enemies of the Tyranids.
Abbadon literally did that during one of the Black Crusades. Instead of attacking the planet with hundreds of starforts, gun batteries, naval squadrons and defence regiments, he took his forces to the worlds that supplied the food, weapons, ammo and manpower to those things and destroyed them instead. The fortified system then starved and had no replacement soldiers/crew and was easy pickings for even basic pirate raiders let alone the Black Legion.
Overread wrote: The Nazi war machine wasn't a joke but it didn't go face to face with the Maginot Line, they went around it. Being powerful in war doesn't mean you have to fight face to face with everything, if you can avoid a super-powered warship that's sitting in a system and instead attack dozens of others its not able to protect (aren't there only 5 or so Blackstone Fortresses over the whole Galaxy?); then go for those other systems. You don't have to face it head-on with an equivalent firepower. Tyranids might swarm it so that its few, but powerful, guns have too many targets; or even just wait for Genestealers and Cultists to infiltrate it and weaken it from the inside out. It might be a powerful gun, but its pretty useless if its crew are all dead; or better cultists who then turn the Fortress upon enemies of the Tyranids.
There's a difference between being stupid and prideful and being efficient. There was no need to topple the maginot line to establish nazi superiority so they did the smart thing which was go around it. And yes Tyranids do just that. They don't accept 1v1 duels from avatars of kahines. They just kill it with a horde of carnifexes.
And there's a difference between winning via guerilla warfare and being unable to do jack. American Army during the revolution opted for Guerilla warfare instead of direct conflicts because that resulted in the most victories against the british's slow cumbersome and large army. And yes, Tyranids employ guerilla tactics whenever it is more efficient than fighting head on and doesn't back down from a head on fight when it's more efficient.
But right now we're talking about Nukes v.s. no nukes. The nation without nukes stand absolutely no ****ing chance against the nation with nukes. You're right now saying superior numbers is gonna beat a nation that can mass produce nuclear weapons without producing any of their own. And that's just wrong.
The race that can produce and organize multiple blackstone fortress equivalents are gonna mow the Tyranids down indefinitely unless the Tyranids can produce equivalents of their own because mass numbers don't do jack **** against super weapons.
If it's a contest between thermonuclear bombs and many, many nuclear bombs, yes the more numerous nuclear bombs win. But if it's a contest between thermonuclear bombs and many, many battleships and soldiers, the thermonuclear bombs will win. You need to be at least in the same league for your weaker yet more numerous swarm strategy to be a contestant at all.
Blackstone Fortresses don’t “mow” things down. Stop making up hyperbolic statements.
That is not evidence. What a Blackstone is like is laid out in BFG. Its battlefield capabilities are similar to a battleship and it has critical weaknesses to attack craft and torpedoes due to lacking point defense turrets. Combined Blackstone shots are also described in the background as time consuming both to charge up and in the final effect (1 month to explode a star after it gets hit). This shot is also shown to be vulnerable to be dissipated by a sacrificial ship and this drains the Blackstones to the point of uselessness for a significant amount of time that is long enough for the Imperium to board them.
But right now we're talking about Nukes v.s. no nukes. The nation without nukes stand absolutely no ****ing chance against the nation with nukes. You're right now saying superior numbers is gonna beat a nation that can mass produce nuclear weapons without producing any of their own. And that's just wrong.
You're making a useless comparison. Nukes are useful against populations and industry. When it comes to tyranids... good luck finding either.
I don't think you understand the scale of galactic warfare, and you've got a lot of strange assumptions about the fluff AND realism leading you to grand declarations that mean nothing.
Voss wrote: You're making a useless comparison. Nukes are useful against populations and industry. When it comes to tyranids... good luck finding either.
I don't think you understand the scale of galactic warfare, and you've got a lot of strange assumptions about the fluff AND realism leading you to grand declarations that mean nothing.
The guy brought in ww2 as an analogy. I was abiding by that. And now you're slamming me for abiding by his analogy?
Blackstone fortress wipes entire systems in a single firing. It fires pretty rapidly for a weapon that does that. Eldar at its peak had multiple blackstone fortress firing at full capacity and fully organized. And Tyranids have been royally ****ed by super weapons over and over and the story ends there with the Tyranids defeat.
Just explain to me how exactly the Tyranids would combat multiple blackstone fortress firing in tandem, or hell how they would even take out a single blackstone fortress firing at full capacity, without inventing system killers of their own.
This entire discussion thread has been
"They have numbers so they beat system wipers by sheer numbers"
"No, they can't. They're slow so they can't close the distance before the system wiper can fire again"
*while later*
"WW2 Nazis dodged maginot line so tyranids still win without system wipers of their own"
"Better analogy is nukes vs no nukes. An army of millions strong will still die to a single nuclear bombing run."
"NO! Nukes only work on industry! And you are a fool for using ww2 analogy!"
wtf.
You want to keep it in lore? Sure. Tell me how current Tyranids can defeat a single blackstone fortress. And no, genestealer infiltration does not work because genestealers do not work on Eldars unless they intentionally submit themselves.
Voss wrote: You're making a useless comparison. Nukes are useful against populations and industry. When it comes to tyranids... good luck finding either.
I don't think you understand the scale of galactic warfare, and you've got a lot of strange assumptions about the fluff AND realism leading you to grand declarations that mean nothing.
The guy brought in ww2 as an analogy. I was abiding by that. And now you're slamming me for abiding by his analogy?
Blackstone fortress wipes entire systems in a single firing. It fires pretty rapidly for a weapon that does that. Eldar at its peak had multiple blackstone fortress firing at full capacity and fully organized. And Tyranids have been royally ****ed by super weapons over and over and the story ends there with the Tyranids defeat.
Just explain to me how exactly the Tyranids would combat multiple blackstone fortress firing in tandem, or hell how they would even take out a single blackstone fortress firing at full capacity, without inventing system killers of their own.
This entire discussion thread has been
"They have numbers so they beat system wipers by sheer numbers"
"No, they can't. They're slow so they can't close the distance before the system wiper can fire again"
*while later*
"WW2 Nazis dodged maginot line so tyranids still win without system wipers of their own"
"Better analogy is nukes vs no nukes. An army of millions strong will still die to a single nuclear bombing run."
"NO! Nukes only work on industry! And you are a fool for using ww2 analogy!"
wtf.
You want to keep it in lore? Sure. Tell me how current Tyranids can defeat a single blackstone fortress. And no, genestealer infiltration does not work because genestealers do not work on Eldars unless they intentionally submit themselves.
By destroying it in space combat which is a fairly easy task. Read my posts where this has been stated over and over again: Blackstones have BFG stats. They are straightforward to take out on their own.
Blackstones are not rapid firing for their combined shot as shown by BFG background. Having a shot that takes a month to take effect is of no use on a battlefield timescale despite its uses at a strategic level. Having a shot that can be dissipated by a single sacrificial ship of the Imperium shows how the Tyranids could do it too.
Quite simply you are just making stuff up about the Blackstones now and ignoring the actual GW provided evidence as to their abilities and vulnerabilities. Go read some BFG background on Blackstone Fortresses.
Well in WW2 no nuclear weapons were used on military targets - they were used on civilian and urban targets. It's even hotly debated if they were even needed at all as the Japanese forces were already in a state of general disarray/retreat at the time.
They also highlight the critical element you keep overlooking - that destroying whole systems/using nuclear weapons harms the user as much as the attacker. You can't "Win" against the Tyranids by blowing up whole systems. You can stall them, distract them, nudge them to take a different path; but you can't win unless you can also take out key elements of their forces which, hither too, we don't know about because they come from the blackness of deep space.
So you're constantly sacrificing systems to them - be that if you blow them up or if they devour them. Only with the former there's zero chance of using that system again - in theory a devoured system "could" be used again with the right investment or just leaving it alone for millennia.
And a weapon designed to blow up worlds can't just fire that in every angle during an attack on repeat.
Finally you also overlook that you can't blow everything up - just like you can't use nuclear weapons on everything. If the enemy comes at you from multiple angles or attacks areas you don't have your mega-fortress in how do you combat them?
We aren't saying that super-mega weapons aren't powerful, just that they aren't a be-all-end-all solution to the problem that is Tyranids.
From what I read the Blackstone Fortress firing into the void is just as devastating as it firing at a celestial object.
Nope. Just nope. You clearly have not read much about Blackstones then. 8 lance shots can on average cripple a cruiser only. Hardly devastating on the star system level.
Space is big, you know. It's 238,900 miles from the Earth to the Moon.
The Earth is a tad under 8,000 miles in diameter.
You can fit about 30 Earths in between the Earth and the Moon.
A Blackstone Fortress, if I gather from this thread correctly, is aimed usually at stars. Those have very predictable movements. They're also BIG targets. Our sun is 865,370 miles in diameter. It's 338,102,469,632,763,460 cubic miles in volume. The Earth is 259,875,159,532 cubic miles in volume. Or, put another way, you can fit over 1,000,000 Earths in the sun.
A Hive Ship is, at its largest, maybe the size of Earth. Probably much smaller. So something that can be aimed at a star would also need to be able to be aimed at something a literal million times smaller than its intended target. And there's a lot of space to miss.
Why don’t people go read the BFG rule book which explicitly lays out stats for a Blackstone and describes the feats they did in the Gothic War? Seriously, it seems some people are just flailing and making things up now without reference to the source material.
I don't understand how this isn't getting through. Leviathan crossed above and bellow the galactic disk and nearly cut the galaxy in half.
Thats just one hive fleet. The nids have the collected biomass of entire galaxies at their disposal. And every planet consumed is another planets biomass added.
Whatever anyone else can do at their peak, total galactic annihilation wasn't it. Let alone multiple galactic annihilations. Necrons are closest and the only other galactic scale threat in 40k. But nids are the inevitable heat death of 40k.
You can't argue with Roboemperor because they are convinced that they are 100% right and you're 100% wrong regardless of any citations or arguments you make. It's taken 5 pages of people saying the exact same thing and only now have they decide they might have been wrong about one of their statements despite the same conclusion being applicable to all of them.
You'd have an easier time knocking down a wall with your skull.
I don't understand how this isn't getting through. Leviathan crossed above and bellow the galactic disk and nearly cut the galaxy in half.
Thats just one hive fleet. The nids have the collected biomass of entire galaxies at their disposal. And every planet consumed is another planets biomass added.
Whatever anyone else can do at their peak, total galactic annihilation wasn't it. Let alone multiple galactic annihilations. Necrons are closest and the only other galactic scale threat in 40k. But nids are the inevitable heat death of 40k.
Logic.
4% of matter in the galaxy are stars. 12% of matter in the galaxy is gas. 84% of matter in the galaxy is dark matter. 0% is planets. Of those 0%, 0% has life on it. Of those 0%, about 1% of the planet is eaten by tyranids.
Spoiler:
That is an absolute pathetic amount of matter "consumed" by Tyranids.
And perhaps the most ubiquitous and dangerous of the weapons of this terrible war were the omniphages, swarms of intelligent, microscopic nano-machines that could consume everything across the surface of a world in only solar hours.
Not only does it take Tyranids longer than mere solar hours to consume the surface of a planet, but omniphages, being mechanical, can most definitely utilize a greater percentage of mass in the galaxy.
In addition Sun snuffers ate suns. So Men of Iron not only did what Tyranids did better and faster, they also were able to utilize an insane more amount of matter in the galaxy. 4%/0 = infinite. Men of Iron utilize infinite more matter than Tyranids.
And Imperium of Man took them out using black hole cannons and other epic gak. Imperium of Man at their peak is when they fully enslaved and fully controlled the Men of Iron.
I just don't see it. What do Tyranids do better than Men of Iron and Imperium of Man? And then there's the Emperor and his Primarchs on top of all this.
Current Imperium of Man is a total joke to pre-age-of-strife Imperium of Man. And from what I'm reading and seeing, Tyranids are also a total joke to pre-age-of-strife imperium of man.
The only way this is not true is if Tyranids are able to nom stars and shoot blackholes or something similar in scale. Which could be the case. But anyone saying that the current hive fleets x 1,000,000 with no new technology/bioforms is gonna totally take out Imperium of Man at his height, or Necrons at their height, is completely wrong. Just like Tyranids nom biomass and make soldiers, the Omniphages will nom Tyranids and make soldiers too.
I mean Tyranids at their finest lose to orks. And they only won Octarius because Ghazzy left and Orks fought themselves rather than the Tyranids. I highly doubt the Octarius Tyranids could beat The Beast let alone Krorks.
Organic mater isn't just life. It's oxygen, hydrogen, carbon, ect ect. You know comets? They eat them. A lot of lifeless rocks still have water, and carbon, and useful minerals. They suck in passing nebula that can span light years, even MILLIONS of light years across. When a hive fleet finishes killing off the life on a planet and they suck clean the digestion pools and reabsorb the capillary towers they then devour the oceans and atmosphere until every molecule of useful mater has been strip mined from the planet. Now, they are DRAWN to planets with life. But they EAT everything they find along the way.
It's also clear that they don't just feed, there is intelligence behind the feeding patterns. Hence why they go for prime targets like Chapter Homeworlds; or how some fleets pre-digest worlds for others so that fleets who have less to feed on at worlds (eg those fighting demons) can recover lost reserves.
Tyranids might be slower at processing some minerals and rocks and other objects/materials; however they are very fast with biomatter on worlds. Plus each world they take denies it to their enemies. It's a tactical move.
Whilst other races might use a scorched earth tactic to deny worlds to Tyranids, but in turn weaken their own hold. Tyranids use a devouring tactic to deny worlds to their enemies, but also directly replenish their own resources.
It's a landslide/avalanche effect in that each world lost potentially makes the hive fleet stronger.
Overread wrote: It's also clear that they don't just feed, there is intelligence behind the feeding patterns. Hence why they go for prime targets like Chapter Homeworlds; or how some fleets pre-digest worlds for others so that fleets who have less to feed on at worlds (eg those fighting demons) can recover lost reserves.
Tyranids might be slower at processing some minerals and rocks and other objects/materials; however they are very fast with biomatter on worlds. Plus each world they take denies it to their enemies. It's a tactical move.
Whilst other races might use a scorched earth tactic to deny worlds to Tyranids, but in turn weaken their own hold. Tyranids use a devouring tactic to deny worlds to their enemies, but also directly replenish their own resources. It's a landslide/avalanche effect in that each world lost potentially makes the hive fleet stronger.
It's not a potential. It's always a net gain. They regain everything they deployed, cannibalize any hive ships that were lost carcasses, birth new hive ships, and gain everything on the rock they found. The BA won't recover what they lost in Baal. Planets have become dead rocks. Entire chapters just don't exist anymore. Veterans and their ancient wargear were shredded to pieces and rendered into uselessness.
Aye most times it is a pure net gain; but considering most Hive Fleets have - so far, been shattered or defeated; at some point there's a net loss at those defeats. One could even argue that some worlds might have yielded a near net loss - for example battling demons might cost the Tyranids more biomatter to take a world than they gain from it. Or at least that they gain from it from a quick feeding before moving on.
But yes, by and large a Hive Fleet is a steady avalanche that grows and grows battle to battle.
Eating or not eating Admech metals would be one such idea that could even be disputed through the text of one book.
As it stands it is most likely that Nids can fly through nebulas and other gaseous anomalies and tale sustenance in the form of hydrogen, helium or other exotic compounds.
