Before jumping on the Angry Train, read first.

When I first started getting into the lore of W40K, the Butcher's Nails sounded cool, from the surface I learnt and thought that they made you stronger and a berzerk (at least that's what I remember). Fast forwarding today, they're nothing but a big L for the WE legion and Angron himself and whoever had them before in the Dark Age of Tech. They literally serve no purpose other than degrading the user's brain until he doesn't know what the feth he's doing except killing and I don't understand how they continue to kill in a mindless state, but yeah that's 40K for you.

The Butcher's Nails just forced Angron to become a traitor and a massive walking abortion. The dude has 0 I mean 0 character development. He does nothing but rage because of what the nails did to his brain. "Nobody can 1v1 Angron", proceeds to get clapped by all of his brothers. Killed all his high ranking commanders except Kharn because he somehow touched him emotionally, forced the legion to embrace the Butcher's Nails and there were more loyalist World Eaters during the HH compare to traitor because nobody liked Angron, and nobody does like Angron and the sole reason are the Butcher's Nails. Kharn regret his decision on getting the Nails, he then wanted his Nails removed by a Thousand Sons sorcerer, but suddenly the Nails activated (Khorne influence?) and he mercilessly killed the sorcerer.

Even in the fan written HH stories, the Butcher's Nails don't exist because they're stupid. Anybody to receive the Nails would become a Khorne worshiper at the end, basically sealing someone's fate without their decision to worship Khorne or not (free will).

It would've been better if Angron and the WE had an unstable gene seed (flaw) that would make them in certain situations rage and get empowered instead of the dumb Butcher's Nails. This would've made the WE even under Khorne influence an organized legion instead of numbered berzerkers that have little to no impact in the Galaxy.

I'm not a WE fan, but it'd be way, way more desirable for Nails to be removed and Angron and the WE being a noble gladiator legion who has a gene flaw making way for character development and far more interesting reads both on loyalist and traitor sides.

I can't believe old lore that was emotional (it's still canon for me) like the Imperial Guardsmen that stood against Horus and had it not been for Sanguinus blow to Horus, the Emperor would not have won gets rectonned but the Butcher's Nails stay.

And everybody wonders why they print their minis instead of buying directly from GW.

Added:

The Primarchs were created to be less or more equal. Lorgar fought like a bitch but he did instigate the HH, which was a pretty impactful thing to do. Sanguinius might be a god tier super warrior but he is angsty bitch with poor commanding skills. All of them fit roughly on the same plane of quality except Angron. Although the Butcher's Nails are easily to be blamed, Angron was gak without them to begin with. Is he an interesting character? No! He is a raging one dimensional daemon that's entirely uninteresting or compelling, even as a non-daemon he was still pretty lame. That's called bad writing, all we got is an unlikable dick with a mentality of a 9 year old rage daemon. This affect also rubbed off his sons, name one World Eater that in current setting is enjoyable. Kharn lost his mind, and now is a angry killing emotionless machine, the rest of the WE scream Khornes name all day.

When landed on Nuceria, he had a rough start, he killed an Eldar squad right after landing and immediately getting enslaved by the slavers, but it's not even comparable to Mortarion who landed on a planet who had AIDS and his dad was a necromancer (Mortarion literally had to fight the Warhammer equivalent of the Lich King, was still able to do 95% of the work) , or Leman who got raised by Wolves. Angron was forced to fight in the Gladiator arena and quickly rose to fame and also found a father figure to guide him. He tried to escape a number of times and each time he got his ass kicked, that just shows how bad he was. Corax had a similar upbringing and he didn't get captured, Conrad and even crushed into its planet's crust and, crawled his way through lava and then he hide from all the rapists and murderers and he still became king of Nostramo. After letting himself getting the Nails by force to kill his daddy figure, Angron deserves everything that's happened to him. Every other Primarch would've gotten away from Angron situation, but this guy can't escape and some subhumans plant the nails in his brain.

The slavers found no value in Angron despite being a demigod. He was instantly seen as a toy to be thrown at the dogs. Primarchs like Sanguinius and Fulgrim were able to influence the people around them into looking after them. That just shows how uncompelling Angron was. He tried to escape numerous times but failed, while pretty much any Primarch would've escaped with ease, Corvus would invis out, Sanguinius would fly away, Magnus would TP away, Horus and Lorgar would talk their way out of it, Gman would organize a rebellion, Vulkan and Ferrus would punch their way out. Angron couldn't even convince his warlords having him on their side would be more valuable instead of stabbing gaks half of his size.

Angron never won a fight against his brothers, even the fight against Leman Russ. Angron knocked Leman on his ass, however Leman baited Angron into a kill zone. He was surrounded by guns that would blow him to shreds in seconds. Despite the WE fury in combat and wining in kill count, they had no strategies and Angron was at Lemans mercy. Leman should've done what should have been done before, press the "eliminate" button but he just couldn't bring himself to kills brother and retreated. After this Angron thought he won against Leman and the SW. In the book Betrayer, the conversation between Lorgar and Angron is proof is what Lorgar says to Angron, that he is pathetic and how Leman stomped his ass during the battle because how briliant he was, while Angron insists he won because they killed more SW. It shows how little the WE cared for Angron as the majority of them didn't notice he was in danger and the many that did, didn't care.

Everybody points out that the Emperor was bad towards Angron, yes I know that. The Emperor was a dick towards some of his sons and was good to others. It shows how much of a Meme lord he is.

The WE had it better before Angron, they were the only legion who negatively benefited after their reunion with their Primarch. They also inherited the only Primarch who couldn't conquer his planet.

The exact nature of who stood between Horus and the Emperor has not been revealed currently, it could very well be an Imperial Guardsman (or that is, imperial army)

1 - The Nails were a punishment on Nuceria for gladiators who didn't do what their overlords commanded. The whole point was for the entertainment of the overlords.

2 - It wasn't just the Nails that pushed Angron to Horus. The Emperor treated Angron like a weapon more than any other Primarch and upon their first meeting had a chance to earn Angron's respect but He decided to not so that because He is a self-serving rat.

3 - Angron gets beaten once by Russ because Russ and the Wolves outmaneuver the World Eaters in an attempt to show Angron that barbarism and bloodshed don't diverge from tactics.

4 - Yeah, Angron killed loads of Legion commanders. So did Perturabo. What's your point? He was not a well-adjusted or nice individual. He forced the Nails on the Legion as a sick joke because they wanted to be "closer" to their father who hated them. They reminded him of the cruelty of the Emperor and his own personal failure to his gladiator family.

5 - Not sure where you get the idea that there were more Loyalist WE than any other Legion. Care to provide a source for that?

6 - The Nails activate whenever an attempt is made to remove them. They wire into the subject's brain and make it impossible to remove them without killing the host, which again was the point. Cruelty.

7 - Where do you get the idea that the WE have no influence on the galaxy? They were one of the first to turn Traitor and the First War for Armageddon still has ramifications for the current conflicts. Not everybody can be the Black Legion.

8 - The Guardsman getting nuked by Horus isn't set in stone. In fact, the whole point of that specific bit of story is that each organisation claims their own is the truth, much like everything else in the Imperium.

I can't believe old lore that was emotional (it's still canon for me) like the Imperial Guardsmen that stood against Horus and had it not been for Sanguinus blow to Horus, the Emperor would not have won gets rectonned but the Butcher's Nails stay.

You do know that's a retcon, right? It isn't at all in the original version. The RoC:StD version just has the Emperor, a Custodes company and Imperial Fists (possibly a mixed company of both, with the way its worried). No random guardsman, no Sanguinius.

 F.E.A.R. wrote:

Killed all his high ranking commanders except Kharn because he somehow touched him emotionally

Kharn touching Angron emotionally, colorized (M31)

It would've been better if Angron and the WE had an unstable gene seed (flaw) that would make them in certain situations rage and get empowered instead of the dumb Butcher's Nails. This would've made the WE even under Khorne influence an organized legion instead of numbered berzerkers that have little to no impact in the Galaxy.

Blood Angels. You described Blood Angels.

there's something about the Horus Heresy you have to keep in mind.

it's not an "action series" it's not a "heroic tale" it's a greek tragedy.
each of the Legions are supposed to be tragic in their own way. Angron, being well.. BROKEN.. is what makes the world eaters tragic. The hints lain suggest Anron was supposed to be the primarch of brotherhood. the, arguably, glue that held the crusade together. the "espitrt de corps given form" instead.. he's a broken blood thirsty beast and his sons followed him. THAT is the tragedy of the world eaters. they could be been the best of the Legions. and instead where the worst

Yeah, melodrama & tragedy sum up HH almost to a T.

Each of the triator primarchs became a traitor due to their own flaws.

Horus: His Ambition
Lorgar: His fanatical need for faith drove him into the arms of chaos.
Peteubo: Perty IMHO was driven by bitterness and Jelousy. he belived he was the best and seemed to take anyone else being honored as a slight.
Magnus: His persuit of knowledge coupled with his arrogance ensured his fall.
Fulgrim: the arrogance of the Emperor's children ensured that no one even ASKED if they'd gone too far until they where too far gone.
Konrad Cruz: he was haunted by his visions so much that they drove him into actions that ensured they came true, A classic victem of self fufilling prophecy
Mortarion: his bitterness and hate of all things psyker slowly pushed him into aligning himself with the traitors as he became more and more the very thing he loathed.
Alpharus: a victem of his own overly complex schemes.

I'm also not a huge fan of the Butcher's Nails. I mean, them being used on Angron is mostly okay to me. But the fact that the rest of his legion installed them is really dumb, and it renders the World Eaters kinda inoperable as a fighting force pretty quickly.

I feel like they mostly struggle to write the World Eaters well in the Heresy series, even ADB's shot is less compelling than his other writing (though still enjoyable). I mean, fair dues, I'd struggle to write them too, because the constraints are massive.

I think you could have had the legion falling into barbarism and berserk rage just because they are space marines, already hyper violent hypnoconditioned freaks who likely feel rushes of endorphins when engaged in violence and just being encouraged by Angron and then later infected by Khorne. The Butcher's Nails in every single legionaire except the dreadnaughts is just really pretty silly to me.

Again, that was the point. Angron hated the World Eaters, to the point where he just fully up and left at one point and they had to drag him back. Kharn wanted to know how they could get the respect of their father so Angron, being the unstable tortured man that he was, said if his sons wanted to understand and be closer to him, then they should get the Nails. And because the World Eaters were desperate, they did.
Angron only every wanted to die with his gladiators on Nuceria, something he was cheated of by the Emperor. His Legion reminded him of that slight so he took his anger out on them.

I kinda like ADB's suggestion that the WE are reliant on their mortal 'servants' like Lotara Sarrin to keep the legion operational, precisely because all their actual Astartes are frothing loonies.

I think that would make for a really compelling and unique twist on the usual CSM vs. mortals relationship/hierarchy if extended into the upcoming WE codex. Astartes characters who are just frenzied melee beatsticks, contrasted with mortal characters who do all the planning and logistics for the legion/warband and use the Astartes as basically living weapons, either through cunning manipulation or genuine trust.

So you might have a big, beefy Terminator Lord with a giant chainaxe, but your army's real leader is the mortal blood priestess who 'advises' the Lord who exactly Khorne wants him to kill today. And her staff is topped with the skull of the Lord's predecessor, just to remind everyone what happens if they don't listen to the 'Voice of Khorne'...

 Duskweaver wrote:
I kinda like ADB's suggestion that the WE are reliant on their mortal 'servants' like Lotara Sarrin to keep the legion operational, precisely because all their actual Astartes are frothing loonies.

I think it would be more interesting to make the Nails something that, while always present, activates when in stressful or intense situations (like combat), and WE are capable of planning, logistics, equipment upkeep, and the rest (though obviously incredibly aggressive and hostile in general).

 Duskweaver wrote:
I think that would make for a really compelling and unique twist on the usual CSM vs. mortals relationship/hierarchy if extended into the upcoming WE codex. Astartes characters who are just frenzied melee beatsticks, contrasted with mortal characters who do all the planning and logistics for the legion/warband and use the Astartes as basically living weapons, either through cunning manipulation or genuine trust.

So you might have a big, beefy Terminator Lord with a giant chainaxe, but your army's real leader is the mortal blood priestess who 'advises' the Lord who exactly Khorne wants him to kill today. And her staff is topped with the skull of the Lord's predecessor, just to remind everyone what happens if they don't listen to the 'Voice of Khorne'...

Nah, in the context of ADB's work that comes off too much like his "women being in charge is good, men being in charge is bad" kind of stuff. Khorne may not care from where the blood flows, but the World Eaters are his favored servants. If a mortal tried to threaten a World Eater with a skull of one of their legion it would be over real quick for them.

More interesting, if you had to keep the Nails as something that near-incapacitates longtime users, would be the younger World Eaters, who haven't been completely overtaken by the Nails yet, be the ones doing what you described.

if we're removing butchers nails can we make it so sanguinius doesnt die too?

i mean i always thought he was cool and never liked that he died.

if were changing lore ya know...

Voss wrote:

I can't believe old lore that was emotional (it's still canon for me) like the Imperial Guardsmen that stood against Horus and had it not been for Sanguinus blow to Horus, the Emperor would not have won gets rectonned but the Butcher's Nails stay.

You do know that's a retcon, right? It isn't at all in the original version. The RoC:StD version just has the Emperor, a Custodes company and Imperial Fists (possibly a mixed company of both, with the way its worried). No random guardsman, no Sanguinius.

I thought the original story had a lone terminator charging while firing his storm bolter (and as we know in Space Hulk that means no sustained fire bonus and would need a double 6 to do a point of damage...).

F.E.A.R. wrote:They literally serve no purpose other than degrading the user's brain until he doesn't know what the feth he's doing except killing and I don't understand how they continue to kill in a mindless state, but yeah that's 40K for you.

Yeah, that's the point - they're not supposed to be a good thing. They were implanted in Angron to make him a slave to the Nucerians, and in his own anger and hatred towards his Legion, they implanted them as well. That's the point.

The Butcher's Nails just forced Angron to become a traitor and a massive walking abortion. The dude has 0 I mean 0 character development.

Sorry, awful language aside, have you read Betrayer? Because Angron gets some of the best characterisation (not the same as development, but development isn't always the point) of any Primarch in that book. The back and forth between him and Guilliman has them both make excellent points about eachother.

there were more loyalist World Eaters during the HH compare to traitor because nobody liked Angron

Source on that?

. Kharn regret his decision on getting the Nails, he then wanted his Nails removed by a Thousand Sons sorcerer, but suddenly the Nails activated (Khorne influence?) and he mercilessly killed the sorcerer.

Yes - that's the point and tragedy of it. The World Eaters cannot escape their fate.

Anybody to receive the Nails would become a Khorne worshiper at the end, basically sealing someone's fate without their decision to worship Khorne or not (free will).

Again, yes. That's the point. That makes them *more tragic* - they followed Angron out of misplaced love down a path that doomed them all.

It would've been better if Angron and the WE had an unstable gene seed (flaw) that would make them in certain situations rage and get empowered instead of the dumb Butcher's Nails.

That already exists - they're called the Blood Angels.

This would've made the WE even under Khorne influence an organized legion instead of numbered berzerkers that have little to no impact in the Galaxy.

Again, that's the point - they're not supposed to be an organised Legion. You can absolutely have World Eater warbands, but why would there be an organised Legion? Angron hates his sons, and his sons are quite happy killing in Khorne's name.

I can't believe old lore that was emotional (it's still canon for me) like the Imperial Guardsmen that stood against Horus and had it not been for Sanguinus blow to Horus, the Emperor would not have won gets rectonned but the Butcher's Nails stay.

The old lore which is itself a retcon?

Hecaton wrote:Khorne may not care from where the blood flows, but the World Eaters are his favored servants. If a mortal tried to threaten a World Eater with a skull of one of their legion it would be over real quick for them.

Are they really his "favoured servants", or are they just the ones devoted to him? If a mortal who was also devoted to Khorne could prove her strength over a World Eater, then more power to her - might makes right. After all, this is pretty much exactly what happened in Storm of Iron.

I dunno though, power behind the throne manipulation is more of aTzeentch thing.

Used to be that all the gods venn diagrams deliberately overlapped with eachother so thats no issue in my head canon. Unsure if that is still the case though

It still can be. How do you think Slaaneshi cults infiltrate the higher echelons? By finding the power behind the leadership and tempting them into debauchery (which TBF most already do). A Khorne cult could be based around traveling gladiator games, leaving behind small groups to influence the planet into making gladiatorial combat the primary form of entertainment.
Nurgle cults could deliberately infect the loved ones of a Planetary Governer and get the desperate enough to pledge to the cult for a cure.

In my own head cannon:

Post Angrons discovery. The Emperor, realising how far gone they are, actively encourages Angrons excesses in war and with his own sons. When the Great Crusade is over and the culling of the legions begins a debased and unstable legion of frothing madmen will mean it will be easier for other Primarchs and their sons to eradicate their former brothers in arms and get a taste for fratricide.

Though I really do like the idea of mortals nudging the 'Eaters into conflict.

Ahh, Angron.

Most underrated of the Primarchs in terms of tragedy.

Did the Nucerian Nobility abuse him? Yes. Of course they did. They fitted him with Butcher’s Nails, took away his free will. And when he proved troublesome, mobilised to wipe him and his followers out.

That The Emperor did exactly the same bloody thing adds to that. He used Angron as a tool more brazenly than he did his other “sons”. He also utterly denied Angron vengeance and honour by abducting him, but leaving Antron’s brothers and sisters to perish. There was nothing stopping The Emperor intervening in literally any other way. But nope. He was just here for his tool.

Really, Khorne is the only master Angron has ever willingly served - and the only Master to leave Angron about his business. Was Angron in full control of his faculties when he made that decision? No. But none of that was Khorne’s doing. At all.

The runner up in the “it didn’t have to go that way” is Perturabo. He was a match for Dorn in terms of his abilities. Yet the Iron Warriors got none of the glory. Some might call him petty. I call him entirely justified. It’s a very very very small beans comparison, but it’s like when your boss gets lots of top quality and innovative work out of you on a project, only to pass the glory on to someone else. Yes this actually happened to me. Yes I loathe that tosspot boss. Yes I do bear a grudge. Yes you can fight me and probs win because I’m an avowed wuss, but that wouldn’t suddenly make me wrong

Perty doesn't get much sympathy from me, simply for the decimation he inflicts on his legion after being introduced.

It is petty and stupid, and amounts to nothing more than having a visible 'villain brand' for purposes of slotting him into the HH narrative.

BrianDavion wrote:
Each of the triator primarchs became a traitor due to their own flaws.
Horus: His Ambition
Lorgar: His fanatical need for faith drove him into the arms of chaos.
Peteubo: Perty IMHO was driven by bitterness and Jelousy. he belived he was the best and seemed to take anyone else being honored as a slight.
Magnus: His persuit of knowledge coupled with his arrogance ensured his fall.
Fulgrim: the arrogance of the Emperor's children ensured that no one even ASKED if they'd gone too far until they where too far gone.
Konrad Cruz: he was haunted by his visions so much that they drove him into actions that ensured they came true, A classic victem of self fufilling prophecy
Mortarion: his bitterness and hate of all things psyker slowly pushed him into aligning himself with the traitors as he became more and more the very thing he loathed.
Alpharus: a victem of his own overly complex schemes.

The most interesting thing about this observation is the thing that you missed. Angron isn't a victim of his own flaws, he is a victim of the flaws that were forced upon him by others by way of the Butchers Nails (which quite literally rewired his brain and caused mental instability beyond just heightened agression, as well as decreased logic and reasoning capacity, etc. and made any action other than the expression of anger and violence to be physically painful for Angron - i.e. even breathing, eating, speaking, thinking, etc. was a labored task for him) and the related lobotomization/removal of parts of his brain, as well as his treatment by others.

IMO he is the only Primarch who essentially lacks any real form of agency throughout the entirety of their character arc. He was forced to fight for entertainment by others. When he was ordered to kill the closest thing he had to a family he refused - and then was surgically altered so that he would have no choice in the matter. When he finally tried to seize agency for himself by leading the gladiators rebellion, the Emperor showed up and asked him to abandon his fight - Angron said no, the Emperor forced him to abandon his gladiators, quite literally against his will, and robbed him of his agency again and forced him to take the lead of a legion of troops he wanted nothing to do with. When he tries to escape from them and reclaim that agency by living as what was essentially a feral savage, he was sweet-talked back into it, basically with the promise that he could do unto his legion what was done unto him - in essence, what little agency he gained as a Primarch (keeping in mind that he was an unwilling Primarch to begin with, unlike his brothers) came from taking away the agency of his legion (forcing them to fight eachother to the death in training exercises, forcing them to decimate their own ranks for punishment, and eventually the implantation of the butchers nails which deprived them of their individual agency in the same way that Angrons implants deprived him of his).

Even still while he has some degree of agency as a Primarch following his blossoming bromance with Kharn (and even moreso after he tells Russ to feth off and refuses the Emperors demand to stop the implantation process), he never has full agency to the extent that he is acting in a clear-minded and rational state, as he is still subject to the effects of the Butchers nails and the modified thinking patterns and forced behavioral responses that they trigger. Likewise, he is still subject to the will of the Emperor, such as being forced to kneel in humiliation befoure Roboute Guilliman and the Ultramarines for his failings. Ultimately, the effects of the Butchers nails lead Angron and the World Eaters into the service of Khorne - not in the sense that he "bent the knee" and made a conscious decision of it, but because their behavior and psychology was conducive to corruption that came over time and ultimately fully due to the machinations of Lorgar who more or less pledged Angron to Khorne and transformed him into a daemon prince without Angrons knowledge or agreement (and in fact against his will, given that Angrons librarians similarly pulled Angrons soul from his body, and said soul attempted to fight the daemon prince and prevent it from possessing his body)- and with that corruption Angron was ultimately robbed once more of any agency he might have had, damned to daemonhood and eternal service to Khorne as a harvester of blood and skulls. He may have exercised some agency in joining Horus, but he did so under the influence of Khorne and the faulty thinking created by the Butchers Nails and the masterful manipulations of Horus. The fluff is pretty clear that it wasn't Angron who offered himself and his legion to Khorne, but in fact it was Lorgar who chose that path for him and forced him and the legion into eternal servitude without their awareness or consent. Perturabo acts as a bit of an oracle or a greek chorus on Deluge when he is fighting Angron, pointing out to the then/now-daemonic Angron that he was born a slave and would remain one for an eternity - and indeed his service to Khorne is described in several places as "enslavement" and its implied or stated in several places that he has little or no will of his own and simply acts as a conduit for Khornes rage and desire.

All the Primarchs that walked a path of damnation did so as a result of decisions that they made for themselves and by themselves. Angron was the only one who could be said to have walked down that path due to decisions that were made for him by others. While some of the other Primarchs may have been influenced to take certain actions by outside factors, they ultimately were the ones to make the call. Angron, on the other hand, is a blunt and damaged instrument - if he were a human being alive today he would have a court-ordered conservator because in his state of being he would be recognized as not having the capacity to care for himself or make sound and rational decisions for himself. Not because of a fairly mundane character or personality flaw/defect as was the case with all his brothers, but because he's literally missing more or less half of his brain and the other half was re-wired to work in a way other than it was meant to and was rapidly degenerating as a result.

Yeah, I agree with that. Angron had no agency, that's his story. And it's actually a pretty good story. He's like the most frustrated being in the galaxy, despite being a demigod. Pretty cool.

I just don't love that the nails are put into his legion. I understand how it was written, I've read the books, I just don't think it was the best choice they could have made. A lot about it doesn't make sense to me. Like the nails are supposed to be some crazy archeotech nonsense that even the Emperor cannot disable or remove. So I find it a bit convenient that it can be installed into his thousands of legionnaires no problem. And I think just replicating Angrons suffering exactly in all of his legion isn't particularly interesting, and generates all these problems with the World Eaters as a military force that require convoluted explanations to allow them to "work" as an army.

It's no big deal, I just think that space marines are already a pretty blood thirsty lot that are rewarded with stimulating chemicals when they kill, and the World Eaters just really leaning into it and being a bit more susceptible because of I dunno, the resonant psychic influence of Angron would deliver you a very similar story of falling to Khorne without going quite so far and so leaving a bit more space for World Eaters that are a bit more than absolutely frothing murder machines incapable of rational thought. It would also serve as a commentary on how monstrous Marines are.

Betrayer is still a good book though. And Angron is cooler than he's made out to be, it's the legion I find one note.

Because I cannot reply to so many comments, I'm going to say this.

The only ones who gave out good answers are @Da Boss and @chaos0xomega.

For the people who said I described the BA, I know, I don't hate the BA but it suits the WE better.

I want to like Angron like so many others people, but the Nails just don't let you like the guy and the WE. THEY LEAVE NO ROOM FOR CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT.
"It's there so that they fall to Khorne" bruh the fall is forced and it's unlikable, Angron never had a choice, no free will, also the thing what makes him pathetic to his other brothers, is him a Primarch, literal demigod, getting the Nails stuffed in his brain by some gakkers on Nuceria. That just shows how pathetic he is. The others had it far worse than Angron on arrival but this guy just can't rebel.

Everyone speaks that his story is a tragedy. I know it, we know it, my point is that you cannot connect with the character and the legion because of forced bull crap.

The only Primarchs I connect to are pre-heresy Fulgrim and Perturabo, for me personally.

The traitor Primarchs even though they were set up to be traitors before they were written, their treachery is not by their free will to serve Chaos but forced, their falls also forced, Lorgar is an exception. You just don't feel sad about them (except Magnus).

Take Arthas Menethil the Lich King and Illidan Stormrage as characters from another universe as an example. You can connect with them because their story is truly a tragedy, especially Arthas, who for the sake of his people and his kingdom, said that he would bare any curse to save his people, and he willingly took Forstmourne, the blade that would be his and his peoples undoing.

In the mean time Fulgrim decided to pick up a shiny purple dildo just because it looked cool and perfect and everybody wonders why his fall was forced.

 F.E.A.R. wrote:
I want to like Angron like so many others people, but the Nails just don't let you like the guy and the WE. THEY LEAVE NO ROOM FOR CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT.

Not every character is there to develop. Some characters exist to develop others, or to espouse a particular worldview or opinion. For Angron, he actually acts more to prop up the stories of Lorgar, Kharn, and Guilliman (in Betrayer), to challenge their opinions, and to make them act. Also, to say that he has no development isn't true - as mentioned, he does develop in so far as "accepting" his sons as spurned dogs, but he does change his initial opinions. However, I don't believe that he NEEDS development to be a good character, and I think it's a folly in writing to believe that every character needs development.

"It's there so that they fall to Khorne" bruh the fall is forced and it's unlikable, Angron never had a choice, no free will, also the thing what makes him pathetic to his other brothers, is him a Primarch, literal demigod, getting the Nails stuffed in his brain by some gakkers on Nuceria. That just shows how pathetic he is. The others had it far worse than Angron on arrival but this guy just can't rebel.

Yeah. That's why he's different from the others, and more tragic. The fact that you see that as a bad thing for his character because it makes him "pathetic" honestly just kinda tells me that you only care about a character in so far as how they can make their own choices, and honestly, I think that misses out a lot of the good that a tragically cursed character has.

Sure, he's a literal demigod - and he got beaten by a massively technologically superior enemy who specialised in enslaving people. Angron is so much more *interesting* because he didn't become like the others, and that lends to some great "what if" stories which we wouldn't have if he was just like Mortarion or Horus. Again, the tragedy of his character comes from what he *could* have been, not the choices he made.

Everyone speaks that his story is a tragedy. I know it, we know it, my point is that you cannot connect with the character and the legion because of forced bull crap.

I disagree. You can absolutely empathise with him, and feel awful for him losing his best friends, anger for the Emperor taking his death from him, and fury at being turned into a living weapon by his own father. You can connect with his Legion - desperate for their father's love, knowing that they're doing awful stuff to themselves, but they love Angron too much. Hell, you can revel in the irony of him hating his father for turning him into a weapon, and him doing exactly the same thing to his own sons.

You can absolutely connect and empathise with him.

The traitor Primarchs even though they were set up to be traitors before they were written, their treachery is not by their free will to serve Chaos but forced, their falls also forced, Lorgar is an exception. You just don't feel sad about them (except Magnus).

You can absolutely feel sad about all of them. They all happen because of awful circumstances, be that a failure from their father, their own ego, their sense of entitlement, the actions of slavers, or being stabbed by a cursed dagger or betrayed by their right hand Astartes. Again - the tragedy here is that they were all avoidable in some way. Even Lorgar's is avoidable, if the Emperor hadn't censured him and he'd never fallen in with Kor Phaeron.

In the mean time Fulgrim decided to pick up a shiny purple dildo just because it looked cool and perfect and everybody wonders why his fall was forced.

He picked it up because of the expectations that he felt he needed to match, and the weight put on him compared to his brothers. Fulgrim's fall stems from his upbringing and what led him to pick up the Laer Blade. Again, they were all avoidable tragedies, and THAT'S what makes them tragic.

 Da Boss wrote:
Yeah, I agree with that. Angron had no agency, that's his story. And it's actually a pretty good story. He's like the most frustrated being in the galaxy, despite being a demigod. Pretty cool.

I just don't love that the nails are put into his legion. I understand how it was written, I've read the books, I just don't think it was the best choice they could have made. A lot about it doesn't make sense to me. Like the nails are supposed to be some crazy archeotech nonsense that even the Emperor cannot disable or remove. So I find it a bit convenient that it can be installed into his thousands of legionnaires no problem. And I think just replicating Angrons suffering exactly in all of his legion isn't particularly interesting, and generates all these problems with the World Eaters as a military force that require convoluted explanations to allow them to "work" as an army.

It's no big deal, I just think that space marines are already a pretty blood thirsty lot that are rewarded with stimulating chemicals when they kill, and the World Eaters just really leaning into it and being a bit more susceptible because of I dunno, the resonant psychic influence of Angron would deliver you a very similar story of falling to Khorne without going quite so far and so leaving a bit more space for World Eaters that are a bit more than absolutely frothing murder machines incapable of rational thought. It would also serve as a commentary on how monstrous Marines are.

Betrayer is still a good book though. And Angron is cooler than he's made out to be, it's the legion I find one note.

As someone who lacks much interest in or knowledge of Khorne factions, this tracks for me. It sounds like Angron's story was all well and good as stories go, and I get the tasty tragedy of the nails being adopted by others out of a desperate attempt to connect with Angron, but...

Well, marines are already a bunch of hyperviolent manchildren with predictable motivations. World Eaters seem to just be all those things but like, even more man. It doesn't seem like they bring much to the table narratively that isn't already covered by other factions. And needing to stab someone every five minutes doesn't jive super well with spending months and months traveling in starships. Like, I get they have a lot of redundant unaugmented humans to vent on, but the faction as a whole seems like it should basically be sabotaging/destroying itself constantly to the point that it's weird it's still a major player in the 41st millenium.

And frankly, the constant pointless anger/violence kind of makes their anger/violence less interesting. Like, a moment of rage and extreme violence can be a thrilling climax to a story. Sam Vimes demanding to know the location of his bovine is a moment that sticks with you (though admittedly that's partially due to its hilarity). But a World Eater struggles to have a memorable, interesting moment of rage because he's spent the entire story screaming and stabbing something every five minutes.

Chill, bunny ears. Go back to preschool, and stay there until you have more emotional maturity than a fussy toddler. Most of the rest of the galaxy already called dibs on having "grumpy and rude" as their only personality traits, and doing it louder doesn't make it more interesting.

I don't know. I mean no disrespect to you Khorne lovers out there, but how do you get into any Khorne faction? They just seem so one-note and lacking in goals or personalities. Even the daemons don't seem to have much going on beyond running forward and spamming the melee button. Which is a shame because a god of war and blood could have all kind of cool gimmicks if "stupid with anger" weren't their defining personality trait. Is their simplicity the appeal? Is it refreshing on some level that they don't really have any motivation beyond gaining points on Khorne's scoreboard? Or am I just ignorant of a bunch of cool Khorne fluff that adds some nuance to his followers?

 Da Boss wrote:


I just don't love that the nails are put into his legion. I understand how it was written, I've read the books, I just don't think it was the best choice they could have made. A lot about it doesn't make sense to me. Like the nails are supposed to be some crazy archeotech nonsense that even the Emperor cannot disable or remove. So I find it a bit convenient that it can be installed into his thousands of legionnaires no problem.

My take of it is that the Emperor could have removed the Butcher's Nails if he wanted to, just as he could have saved the Gladiators on Nuceria... he just chose not to. Russ showing up to try to bring Angron and the World Eaters back to Terra to remove the Nails implies it was possible, and IIRC in discussion between the Emperor and Arkhan Land it was directly stated that removal of the Nails was possible, but that the damage to Angrons mind had already been done. I think the Emperor chose to leave them in because Angron was already irreparably broken, but the Nails at least made him a more functional tool when it came to making war, even if he couldn't quite fill his full intended purpose within the Emperors pantheon.

Also, I wouldn't say "the could be installed into thousands of legionnaires no problem". It took decades for Angrons crew to figure that trick out, up until then their attempts at implantation resulted in a 100% mortality rate, even as they improved the tech it still had high mortality rates and produced inconsistent and poor results. It wasn't until the legion pilfered tech from Ghenna that they were able to figure out a way to successfully implant the nails on anything more than an individual basis - even then there were still issues with it, which is why formations like Rampagers and Caedere squads exist, those were the implantees whos reactions to the nails were too extreme and they couldn't function as part of typical WE units. It bares mentioning that the Butchers Nails implanted into the World Eaters are of a different in design from Angrons own given that they had to source tech from Ghenna to make it happen rather than Nucerian tech. The fact that the Nails were said explicitly to not have been designed for the physiology of a Primarch, which caused them to react differently than in others was no doubt a contributing factor in this as well, whereas its safe to assume that the Techmarines and Apothecaries who developed the Nails implanted into the rest of the legion took their own transhuman physiology into account when they redesigned them.

And I think just replicating Angrons suffering exactly in all of his legion isn't particularly interesting, and generates all these problems with the World Eaters as a military force that require convoluted explanations to allow them to "work" as an army.

I mean, it makes sense that he would do unto his children as was done unto him. Hes a broken bastard that only knew suffering and violence, so the children created in his likeness should only know the same. Also I don't think the legion had the Nails for very long before the Heresy, there were still un-Nailed legionnaires at the time of Istvaan III and efforts to Nail them were still ongoing. Likewise we see that despite most of the legion having nails, they still mostly remain lucid and more than capable of rational though when they are not in combat and are able to function in relative stability in a garrison posture - its principally when they go into combat that they go into frenzy and start operating as individual murderers instead of a cohesive army. In terms of time that could mean basically anything given the sometimes absurdly long timescales of the Horus Heresy, but its not out of the realm of possibility of it only having been an arbitrarily short enough period of time that they were still able to "barely hold it together". in any case, between that, the stated drop in recruit quality in order to continuously replenish ranks from losses, and the use of serfs and allied Mechanicum forces, etc. to keep the legion functioning and supplied between battle, theres plenty of non-convoluted explanations for how they "worked". It does bare mentioning that following Istvaan III they are described loosely as becoming progressively less functional as a military force due to their tendency to completely abandon any sense of an organized plan and simply just throw themselves into combat at the earliest opportunity, often to the detriment of themselves and their allies and by the end of the Heresy/the early post-Heresy era they cease to be any sort of a cohesive fighting force, instead becoming scattered packs of frenzied savage warbands.

the resonant psychic influence of Angron would deliver you a very similar story of falling to Khorne without going quite so far and so leaving a bit more space for World Eaters that are a bit more than absolutely frothing murder machines incapable of rational thought. It would also serve as a commentary on how monstrous Marines are.

without the nails though you then lose the angle that Angron is actually physically/mentally damaged, not in the "I have daddy issues, bad nightmares, and should really get a therapist" sense, but in the "I have literal brain damage, am missing entire sections of my brain, and have had my neural pathways literally restructured to make me more aggressive and violent", it makes him a lot more like Curze and the others in just being a victim of "nurture" as it were, whereas in a way Angron is more a victim of "nature" - however artificial that nature may be. In turn that distinction sets the nature of the World Eaters apart from their brother legions.

The repeated insistence that the nails turned the world eaters into 100% frothing murder machines is itself a meme on the same scale as failbaddon. Outside of combat, we are shown a number of scenes where post-Nails World Eaters are able to carry out entire conversations, some pretty introspective and deep. If your perception of them is that they are always in a blind murderous fury, then thats a "you" problem. For me, the thing that sold me on the World Eaters was the scene between Kharn and Argel Tal in Betrayer - a conversation that occurs well after Kharn has the Nails implanted:



If that isn't pitiful, tragic, and deep, I don't know what is. They are definitely perceived and memed as being a one-note legion, and some of the authors have struggled with their depiction, but they are so much more than that.

The only ones who gave out good answers are @Da Boss and @chaos0xomega.

For the people who said I described the BA, I know, I don't hate the BA but it suits the WE better.

Lol thanks, but I was the one who said you described BA lol

THEY LEAVE NO ROOM FOR CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT.

I disagree, the passage I above IMO speaks to much deeper depth of character and identity for the World Eaters than most of the other legions IMO.

Angron never had a choice, no free will, also the thing what makes him pathetic to his other brothers, is him a Primarch, literal demigod, getting the Nails stuffed in his brain by some gakkers on Nuceria.

Yeah, thats kind of the point. Like, the actual literal point of his narrative arc and his and his legions identity. His legion wants to be loved by him and proud of him, but he hates them and they are in turn ashamed of and embarassed by him. He is broken (literally described as such by others in the setting!) and damaged and not whole, he is the only primarch not to conquer his homeworld, he is the only primarch to reject the Emperor and reject his legion, he is the only primarch that does not join the Emperor and the Great Crusade by choice, and likewise the only traitor primarch who unwillingly falls to chaos and ascends to daemonhood. Angron is, in essence, a failed Primarch - he could never (following the implantation of the Butcher's Nails) fulfill the purpose and role intended for him by the Emperor. Even physically he seems to have been stunted relative to his brothers, being amongst the smallest of the Primarchs, implying that not only was he mentally damaged and deformed, but physically as well.

That just shows how pathetic he is.

Pitiful, more than pathetic. There is a distinction between the two. In terms of actually pathetic I would rate Curze, Perturabo, and Corax much higher. Angron is what he was made into, you can't fault him for being who and what he is because he has no choice in the matter and no capacity to change it. This is uniquely and singularly his plight. In truth the Emperor should have just put him out of his misery the moment it became apparent that the Butchers Nails had permanently damaged him and that he was no longer fully functional. That is pitiful.

His brothers on the other hand all had the freedom and capacity to make their own changes and chart their own path, so when they wallow in self-pity and feth up everything for themselves and everyone around them, etc. that is pathetic and a self-inflicted wound.

The others had it far worse than Angron on arrival but this guy just can't rebel.

lolwut? The only primarch that even debatably had it worse than Angron was Konrad Curze (and maybe Alpharius depending on which version of events you believe). Most other Primarchs were taken in and raised by a loving family or a nurturing guardian/mentor and given every opportuntiy to succeed, if not then they at least found themselves in a position to succeed by virtue of being an environment that gave them access to the necessary resources and means to achieve greatness. Only Angron and Curze (leaving Alpharius own mysterious origins) were essentially put into a gakky situation - Curze had to raise himself on murder in a nightmarish and violent slum, but he at least had *freedom* and *agency* to make his own decisions and pursue his own path within the circumstances available to him. Angron was enslaved from basically the very get-go, tortured, mutilated, and broken, and forced to fight and kill against his will. The closest thing he had to a friend, mentor, or father figure was a fellow-gladiator who he was forced to kill. His attempts to rebel and seize control of the world - like his brothers would have - all ended in failure because, yknow, he was damaged and broken and without the necessary faculties and tools needed to do so. He was a failed primarch, not because he didn't live up to expectations, but because he was phyiscally incapable of doing so.

Everyone speaks that his story is a tragedy. I know it, we know it, my point is that you cannot connect with the character and the legion because of forced bull crap.

Speak for yourself.

The traitor Primarchs even though they were set up to be traitors before they were written, their treachery is not by their free will to serve Chaos but forced, their falls also forced, Lorgar is an exception. You just don't feel sad about them (except Magnus).

This isn't true at all. They were not forced to serve Chaos, they were fated - there is a huge difference. All of them, except Angron, had choices that they made that led them down that path and led them to damnation. While Angron chooses to betray the Emperor (insofar as someone who is not of sound mind and physically incapable of rational thought can do so) following some expert manipulation by Horus and the others, he does not willingly serve chaos and only ends up a servant of Khorne because he is quite literally forced into daemonhood against his will, whereas all the others willingly chose that.

In the mean time Fulgrim decided to pick up a shiny purple dildo just because it looked cool and perfect and everybody wonders why his fall was forced.

Not sure wtf this has to do with Angron.

I always heavily disliked the way GW constantly portrays Khorne Berserkers. "KILL MAIM BURN!" *SWINGS AXE* "MEHHHH"

I'm slpit on this really. I don't want the nails to be removed because they are an integral part of the World Eaters Legion, and Angron himself. I feel like Gert explained this absolutely perfectly earlier in the thread, it's exactly what I wanted to say, so to avoid being redundant please refer to his post.

But to add to this, I have differing lore in my head when it comes to Khorne Berserkers and even Kharn, and how the nails effects them. Yes, in battle when they enter a rage these guys become absolute maniacs. I totally understand that, and I understand the lack of tactics because they just don't care about that. But imagine, if you will, what do these guys do when they aren't in battle? GW would have us believe they are running around their battle barges howling and screaming and chopping and murdering and burning and.....well you know. But that's BS to me.

I imagine that when World Eaters aren't in battle, they are capable of conversation, albeit small amounts. I think there are areas of the ships where fights are arranged, to avoid the Berserkers mindlessly killing each other. And I imagine that Kharn is also capable of talking and even bargaining. He likely bargains for gene-seed or slaves. Maybe he has a bit of both and needs armaments instead. He could always use ammo. These are things I think Kharn HAS to be capable of, simple communication and bargaining skills. After all, this guy was a very charismatic Captain back in the day and now he's Lord of the Butcherhorde. I also like to imagine that other Chaos Lords involved in discussions with him would be put off by his demeanor. Kharn would still have his axe in hand, shoulders upright, and a sharp assertive tone. Demanding, disregarding, dismissive. Any lords in attendance would feel the need to acquiesce to his demands due to the possibility of his rage, powerful lords like Abaddon would return an ultimatum most likely.

These are more nuisance things I like to think about, and to me the nails simply makes these guys irritable when bored or not stimulated by aggression, but they aren't mindless rage machines to me. They can freak the feth out more regularly than their brothers, but they aren't constantly freaked the feth out. Like any human that you've met that has a temper or a bad attitude, World Eaters are the super human equivalent of that.

So in conclusion, I don't want the nails gone, I just want its lore expanded upon. And not so dumb and boring.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Or am I just ignorant of a bunch of cool Khorne fluff that adds some nuance to his followers?

I dunno. I basically thought the same about Khorne, Angron, and the World Eaters until today, this thread made me dig out some of my older novels and reread some passages from them and dig through wiki articles r/40kLore posts, etc. It completely changed my point of view on the topic, Angron and the World Eaters went from being the primarch and legion that I probably cared the absolute least about to potentially being my favorite within the span of about 14 hours.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Or am I just ignorant of a bunch of cool Khorne fluff that adds some nuance to his followers?

I dunno. I basically thought the same about Khorne, Angron, and the World Eaters until today, this thread made me dig out some of my older novels and reread some passages from them and dig through wiki articles r/40kLore posts, etc. It completely changed my point of view on the topic, Angron and the World Eaters went from being the primarch and legion that I probably cared the absolute least about to potentially being my favorite within the span of about 14 hours.

Glad to hear it. My own hangups aside, it's nice to know you're enjoying the setting! Care to share any tidbits that you think might spark my interest? (I vaguely recall there being some neat blood magic going on with the Blood Gorgons and wishing that Khorne's anti-psyker stance didn't prevent more stuff like that from being explored.)

Lord Tarkin wrote:
But to add to this, I have differing lore in my head when it comes to Khorne Berserkers and even Kharn, and how the nails effects them. Yes, in battle when they enter a rage these guys become absolute maniacs. I totally understand that, and I understand the lack of tactics because they just don't care about that. But imagine, if you will, what do these guys do when they aren't in battle? GW would have us believe they are running around their battle barges howling and screaming and chopping and murdering and burning and.....well you know. But that's BS to me.

I imagine that when World Eaters aren't in battle, they are capable of conversation, albeit small amounts. I think there are areas of the ships where fights are arranged, to avoid the Berserkers mindlessly killing each other. And I imagine that Kharn is also capable of talking and even bargaining. He likely bargains for gene-seed or slaves. Maybe he has a bit of both and needs armaments instead. He could always use ammo. These are things I think Kharn HAS to be capable of, simple communication and bargaining skills. After all, this guy was a very charismatic Captain back in the day and now he's Lord of the Butcherhorde. I also like to imagine that other Chaos Lords involved in discussions with him would be put off by his demeanor. Kharn would still have his axe in hand, shoulders upright, and a sharp assertive tone. Demanding, disregarding, dismissive. Any lords in attendance would feel the need to acquiesce to his demands due to the possibility of his rage, powerful lords like Abaddon would return an ultimatum most likely.

These are more nuisance things I like to think about, and to me the nails simply makes these guys irritable when bored or not stimulated by aggression, but they aren't mindless rage machines to me. They can freak the feth out more regularly than their brothers, but they aren't constantly freaked the feth out. Like any human that you've met that has a temper or a bad attitude, World Eaters are the super human equivalent of that.

I wasn't under the impression that they were in constant kill maim burn mode, but they're still pointlessly cranky/stabby enough for it to turn me off. I'm struggling to remember the novel (maybe Talon of Horus?) where we get some scenes from the point of view of a marine with the nails. It's basically described as a slowly filling rage meter that fills faster when under stress that causes discomfort and makes it difficult for the character to think straight. He randomly smacks a passing human to death to satisfy the nails so he can string his thoughts together better. And that's... To me that's just sort of silly and makes the khorne marine sound like a cartoonish donkey-cave. Like, imagine the war room meetings where this guy just piledrives a random heretech because he's having trouble focusing on the discussion. And while the tragedy angle was there 10,000 years ago, now it's just like, "Stop being such a stupid a-hole, Kyle!" Especially if Kylewasn't around back in the day and just got the annoying donkey-cave surgery so he could fit in with the annoying donkey-caves that sit at the cool kids' table.

So sure, Kharn and pals can probably hold conversations just fine 99% of the time. But they're probably uncharismatic dicks the whole time. But maybe I'm just annoyed by the prevalence of childish bickering among marins (especially chaos marines) in general and the more blatant form it seems to take with Khorne marines gets old fast. Like, Thousand Sons sorcerers are often petty bickering little nerds, but at least some of them are aspiring to restore the rubricae or accomplish something of philosophical importance or find meaning in their existences. All the khorne characters I remember were pretty much just kill/maim/burn or the most dickish of dicks. Except that guy from the Fulgrim books whose main character trait is NOT being an donkey-cave thanks to Fabius messing with (removing?) his nails.

tldr; it's not that nailed marines are non-verbal. It's that they're usually the rudest guy in the room with the blandest thoughts and motivations. At least the scheming ambitious Tzeentch nerds have schemes and ambitions.

A possibility that I would like to see explored for Angron is that, while as a demon prince he's one of the eponymous "Slaves to Darkness," he may feel more free as a demon prince than before, given that his transsubstantiation to demon removed the nails' ability to continue affecting him. Khorne did what the Emperor could not, and freed him.

I just see the matter as part of the overarching dilution of Khorne down to his base elements, and only his base elements, with no nuance or redeeming aspects that would make Khornate forces actually plausible. Perhaps a certain irony, since really a blood-mad berzerker with no real conscious thought it decidedly less evil than a being which has his rage on a tight leash and chooses when to weaponize it.

I haven’t read all the books (is that humanly possible) but from what I have read over many years I do think Angron has been given a really interesting back story but then from the point that the emperor kidnaps him and put him in charge of a legion I think his story is basically “He’s a psycho and woks for Khorne”. There has to be more going on with him.

I wonder if demon prince Angron can control the butchers nails to some extent, there will have to be an explanation of how they work as a coherent force, so maybe he can turn them off and by giving soldiers a break from them that’s why they stick with him.

In the Fabius Bile trilogy there is a WE apothecary that can turn off his own butchers nails so there is precedent

Daemon Angron doesn't have the Nails IIRC. Lorgar helps him transfigure as the Nails were killing Angron, it's another bit of the tragedy. To save Angrons "life", out of love for his brother Lorgar binds him in eternal servitude to one of the Pantheon.

The Nails aren't always at 100% btw. They constantly bite and gnaw away at the edge of an Astartes mind, grinding them down to give in. If an Astartes has a strong constitution or practices meditation then they will still feel the grinding of the Nails but it won't overtake them. It's just easier to give in most of the time.
Its a similar process to normal human anger and aggression, if you can find somewhere to calm down the rage mostly dissipates. But being an Astartes in a warzone usually means that isn't possible.

I would also like to point out the even prior to the Nails, the War Hounds (pre-Angron WE) were known for excessive slaughter and butchery. When they became the World Eaters, they just followed the natural process. They knew what they were and didn't really care, except for a small group who were opposed to the Nails and Angron, but they were massacred during the Crusade by Astartes loyal to Angron.

Hecaton wrote:
A possibility that I would like to see explored for Angron is that, while as a demon prince he's one of the eponymous "Slaves to Darkness," he may feel more free as a demon prince than before, given that his transsubstantiation to demon removed the nails' ability to continue affecting him. Khorne did what the Emperor could not, and freed him.

Nah, he's just as enslaved as ever. The bloodlust that the Nails gave him is replaced by the bloodlust that Khorne gave him.

Khârn walked forwards and let the darkness fold over him as Kargos swung the doors closed behind him. The first thing he heard was the dead whispering in the dark. The second thing was the beast’s breathing. Even his genhanced eyes couldn’t pierce the absolute lack of light. He walked slowly, drawing no weapon despite the temptation, listening to a daemon breathing in the black.

‘Khârn,’ said something unseen, from everywhere and nowhere. Whatever it was, it smelled of fresh graves and funeral pyres, and its teeth were wet.

‘Lord?’

Slow thunder answered. No, a laugh. A chuckle. ‘I am no one’s lord. I never was. Even less so now.’

Khârn swallowed, still edging through the dark. He heard the thing that had once been his gene-sire licking its maw.

‘I want something from you, Khârn.’

‘Name it.’

‘Hnnh. Take your axe. Take your brothers. Kill three hundred souls on the thrall decks.’

Khârn stared in the direction where he was sure the monster was at rest. ‘Why, sire? To what purpose?’

‘Three hundred of them. Take their skulls.’

Khârn heard the thing smile, heard the wet peeling of its fanged maw curling into a grin. Something huge, winged, and wreathed in the smoke of dead souls tried to move closer to him, and strained against the rune-etched chains that bound it. He saw its eyes burning in the dark, orbs of ember-fire, the colour of boiling blood. ‘Take their skulls, Khârn. Build me a throne.’

--Betrayer

That "build me a throne" at the end is probably one of the most wrenching lines delivered in all of the Horus Heresy novels. Angron is no king, he is literally wrapped in chains when he says this. Angron is as he always has been - a slave to endless rage, but with a new master in the form of the Blood God. But he has also become the thing he hated - a High Rider, ruling over his own gladiators who he mutliates as he was mutilated with the butchers nails, forcing them to fight for favor on behalf of Khorne. The one chance of freedom that Angron had was death, but that freedom was denied to him by all throughout his life, and now as a daemon it is denied to him forevermore through the immortality he was "blessed" with by Khorne as a Daemon Prince.

Yawning black before me, the steps descend into what has become Angron's dungeon cell. I take them slowly, one at a time, knocking aside the debris that litters them with the edge of my boot. The air is foul. I measure my breathing urging my hearts to slow.

Know no fear. Show no fear. Show no pity, and no doubt. We have played this game many times before, the primarch and I, and I have tried to learn from every beating I received. The last step delivers me onto the triumphal hall's floor.

'Father?'

I freeze. The word, half-formed upon my lips and yet spoken aloud by another voice, brings me up short.

I scan the darkness in the chamber's recesses. The spaces between the skull piles. The vaulted reaches of the high ceiling. The only light comes from the anteroom at my back. I slowly, cautiously, risk another step forwards, and scattered shards of bone crackle beneath my tread. I cannot see my primarch, though at least l now know for certain that he is still here.

Half a legionary - the lower half - lies twisted on the flagstones like a discarded plaything, capped with a protruding kink of broken vertebrae. There are large teethmarks in the buckled ceramite of his war-plate. I see no point in questioning who he was, or where the rest of him might be.

Another step. Another. I carefully turn my back to the nearest wall, and let my vision adjust.

There.

Angron's eyes smoulder with their own infernal light, though far less so than the last time I stood before him in this place. Then, his inhuman gaze had been fierce, and fearsome, so that not one of us could long hold it. The murderous glare of the gods' most lethal creation.

But now the daemon prince watches me with something like… wariness?

He is crouched in the shadow of his throne - and such a thing is no small marvel for a being of his warp-gifted size and majesty.

No. Not crouched.

Cowering.

I cannot process what I am seeing. The Nails' ticking is an aneurysmal pulse in my ears, as well as my mind.

'Father?' he calls again. Gone is the bestial growl, the hoarse rumble of a throat no longer capable of screaming itself raw. I would say, rather, that he sounds more like himself again. His old self. His former self. The broken warrior he was, before… before his…

I do not know the correct term. I do not care to know it. This is beyond me, beyond any of us. We no longer trouble ourselves to wonder. His immense, clawed fingers slip from the side of the throne as he pulls further back into the gloom, edging away from me.

'Father… is it over?'

He has broken his chains again. I can see them trailing on the floor. No one has ever been able to imprison Angron. Not for long. And yet, he has not tried to leave.
I steady myself, of ering a cautious half-bow. To avert my eyes would be to invite death. I am staring down an unleashed monster.

'Sire, it is Kharn, of the Eighth Company.'

'Khorne…'

'Khârn, sire.'

Silence. Then,

'Grave-grub Kharn. Yes. Yes, I remember you.'

This is the most lucid he has been in many months. Do I dare to dream, dare to hope, dare to pray that this could be the beginning of something more? Perhaps even the salvation that Lord Aurelian claimed to have sought for him?

-- Prince of Blood

Does that sound like "freedom"? Not only is he a slave to Khorne, but he is a slave to his "sons" too. Heres some more

'How long do they live, when no one takes their skulls?'

I cannot recall the last time anyone exchanged this many words with him. I slowly, carefully lower myself to the floor, making sure to keep our eyes locked the entire time. I will answer any question, no matter how mundane, if it will hold him here in the moment for just a little while longer.

'Mortals are feeble things, sire. Without intervention, they will endure for less than a hundred years, and much of that is spent in pain. But Mistress Nisha Andrasta was somewhat older than that, and curiously frail-minded. It is possible that she would not allow herself to understand what your Legion is becoming.'

Angron grows very still for a creature capable of such unnatural and unpredictable rage.

'My Legion, ' he growls.

I do not respond. I regret having seated myself so close to him.

'What is it becoming, Kharn?'

The words gaoler and plaything leap unbidden to the forefront of my agitated mind, almost making me flinch. I have no reason to believe that the daemon prince can read my thoughts, but those two felt disloyal, and irreverent, nonetheless. I consider my response.

'We are following you, sire. We will follow you into eternity.'

'Why?'

'Because you are our father.'

The truth of this statement appears to confound him. He looks me up and down, then scrutinises his talons, his forearms, the tips of his folded wings, lingering just a moment longer than I would like upon the heavy iron manacles around his wrists. Then he shakes his head, rattling the dreadlock-cables that still frame those animal features. It is like watching a mindlocked servitor trying to comprehend the myriad hypocrisies of The Apocrypha Terra - a mind that once held the capacity to understand, now torn between the memory of what it was and the promise of what it could yet be.

'I am not your father, grave-grub. You are not like me. I should not be here.'

The words sting. They always have.

Slowly, Angron begins to rise out from behind the throne. He towers over me, the great sword dragging in his grip, his hunched shoulders pushing aside the empty lumen fixtures that hang overhead. I keep my voice level and measured.
'We have only ever wanted to please you, sire. My brothers and l, we—'

'I should not be here, ' the daemon rumbles again. His attention is drifting to the doors at the top of the steps. His eyes are growing fiercer.

and

There is an empty battered helm lying on the flagstones near my foot. It will serve.

'Do you remember the red sands, sire?' I ask quickly. 'Do you remember the honour of the caedere remissum ? Do you remember what it signifies?'

Angron twitches. He peers at me once more, a blast of hot breath gusting from his snout.

I continue.

'When we found you, we did not know what you wanted of us. Not really. Nothing we did could earn your approval. The rulers of Nuceria, the high-riders, quickly made their peace with Guilliman after your rebellion was ended, and gladly joined with the empire of Ultramar. Though you would not allow us to return there, we thought to mark the sacrifice that you and the Desh'ean gladiators had unknowingly made for us. For the Imperium.'

I pluck the helmet up from the floor. The eye-lenses are broken, the grille dented inwards.

The primarch's expression is unreadable. But he has not killed me yet. That is something.

I turn the helmet over in my hands.

'Here - the twin-crests of the remissum, like bladed horns. When a warrior in the arena knew their mind was failing, when they had spilled too much blood and could no longer find pleasure in anything else, then they would wear them as a warning to their foes. The bout would be sanguis extremis . To the death. My brothers and I saw that it was a bold and noble thing to proclaim oneself beyond hope, sire. Beyond redemption.

'And so, as the War Hounds became World Eaters, many of your veteran companies adorned their helms in this fashion. We wanted you to know that we mourned with you, and that every battle we fought at your side would be to the death.'
'Not for you!' he growls. 'The mantle is not for you!'

'Then you remember enough to know that it did not end well, sire? We tried to learn of your past, and you killed us for it. We tried to celebrate the breaking of chains, and you killed us for it. We tried to teach you how the Imperium wages war, and instead you hammered the Butcher's Nails into our skulls so that we would eventually kill one another, and spare you the effort.'

Without warning, Angron lets out a roar of inhuman hatred and rage, a roar loud enough to rattle my armour plates, and sweeps the great blade around in a flashing arc. His throne of skulls, the throne we built at his command, is obliterated in a single heartsbeat.

Chipped teeth and fragments of bone rain down. I keep my eyes closed for as long as I dare - and that can only be a second or two. The daemon is breathing hard, less than a metre from my face. When he speaks, I can see the sharp, iron fangs glinting in his maw.

'If you wish to prove yourself to me, Kharn of the Legion, then you must follow this path to its end. We were all born to bleed, but the gods' favour is not given easily, or quickly. You must pay for it with blood and skulls. Blood enough to drown the stars, and skulls beyond number. The crusader will tell you as much.'

'You mean Lord Aurelian?'

Angron does not appear to recognise the name. I exhale slowly.

'As we feared they would, sire, the Word Bearers have left us. Our fleet now stands alone, deep within Ultima Segmentum.'

'Then why do you keep me here? Why do you keep me in the dark?'

'This is your flagship, sire. Your place is with us. We spill blood together, so that you may remain.'

He shudders, screwing his eyes shut and letting out a vile sound that could almost be a whimper. 'No. No. The Legion is not mine, not any more. The Blood God calls to me. He is calling me to his side, to… to…'
'Sire, l assure you, we are free to—'

'No!' he shrieks. 'Reality itself drags against these imperfect limbs! My strength is failing! I should be so much more, but you… you will not let…'

The primarch begins to claw at his own face.

'This is not freedom! It is slavery!'

I fall to my knees. It wounds my soul to see him suffer like this, and to know that we keep him here for our own selfish reasons. It is far more than slaughter for slaughter's sake. For our sins, we have shackled Angron to the material realm, as Lorgar urged us.

We simply do not wish to lose our father again.

I do not wish to lose him

But, if this loss of self is the price of immortality, then neither do I wish to follow in his footsteps. I do not wish to lose him, but I will not lose myself. The daemon prince rises to his full height, opening those leathery wings so wide that they almost touch the pillars on each side of the hall. The deck beneath his cloven hooves begins to shudder as otherworldly energies roil about us. He roars again, bringing dust from the arches above.

'I will have blood! Blood! Blood for the Blood God! Blood for my lord Khorne!'

 Gert wrote:
Again, that was the point. Angron hated the World Eaters, to the point where he just fully up and left at one point and they had to drag him back. Kharn wanted to know how they could get the respect of their father so Angron, being the unstable tortured man that he was, said if his sons wanted to understand and be closer to him, then they should get the Nails. And because the World Eaters were desperate, they did.
Angron only every wanted to die with his gladiators on Nuceria, something he was cheated of by the Emperor. His Legion reminded him of that slight so he took his anger out on them.

Then they should be extinct. The problem with the World Eaters is that they are very clearly and explicitly not an effective fighting force and take massive casualties, yet somehow manage to persist and even succeed despite this. It's bad writing to build up how much the Legion has degraded into a band of stupid berserkers only to shield them from the obvious consequences of it.

feth Guilliman and Perturabo, Angron is apparently the best logistician of the Primarchs, since his Legion gets massacred in every battle with attritional warfare only to always bounce back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 F.E.A.R. wrote:
"Nobody can 1v1 Angron", proceeds to get clapped by all of his brothers.

Angron has to my knowledge literally never been beaten one on one by another Primarch. He crushed Leman Russ in a duel, with Russ already being one of the upper tier Primarchs in melee combat. For all of Angron's faults he still legitimately is the best or nearly the best martial combatant of the Primarchs.

It's just that he's a terrible general so even while crushing Russ in single combat his troops were outmaneuvered and formed a kill circle around Angron and would have been able to execute him if that had been their intention, showing to Angron that, as strong as he is, his Legion had deteriorated so much as a fighting force that they were completely incapable of thinking beyond fighting the guy in front of them and as such were easily outperformed by a disciplined and well-trained army. Which is undercut by all the successes of the World Eaters but you know. Also not sure how Marines leveling their bolters against a Primarch in full armour is meant to be threatening considering the hilarious gak Angron survives in that novel alone but there's ADB's gakky writing for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 F.E.A.R. wrote:

I want to like Angron like so many others people, but the Nails just don't let you like the guy and the WE. THEY LEAVE NO ROOM FOR CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT.
"It's there so that they fall to Khorne" bruh the fall is forced and it's unlikable, Angron never had a choice, no free will, also the thing what makes him pathetic to his other brothers, is him a Primarch, literal demigod, getting the Nails stuffed in his brain by some gakkers on Nuceria. That just shows how pathetic he is. The others had it far worse than Angron on arrival but this guy just can't rebel.

Angron is a perfectly well-developed character. He just doesn't have room for much in the way of character progression. The obsession with having every character having character progression, even if that wouldn't fit the role the character is meant to fill in the story, is first year comp 1 college stuff. Hopefully you grow out of it.

Angron doesn't progress as a character because he doesn't need to. The tragedy of Angron is that, unlike arguably all of his brothers, he never really had any agency over his own path in lot. He'd either be forced into falling or die an undignified death from the Nails. The only real problem with Angron specifically is that the narrative on some level doesn't seem to ever acknowledge that Angron in fact has no agency and treats him like he does.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Then they should be extinct. The problem with the World Eaters is that they are very clearly and explicitly not an effective fighting force and take massive casualties, yet somehow manage to persist and even succeed despite this. It's bad writing to build up how much the Legion has degraded into a band of stupid berserkers only to shield them from the obvious consequences of it.

Gak Guilliman and Perturabo, Angron is apparently the best logistician of the Primarchs, since his Legion gets massacred in every battle with attritional warfare only to always bounce back.

The World Eaters recruited from every single planet they conquered. If there were male children they took them by the thousands and they were not as picky with their selection process. As well as this, during the Heresy the World Eaters Apothecary Gahlan Surlak, a student of Fabius Bile, made a huge vat-grown Legionary farm on the planet Bodt. The WE were also one of the largest Legions at the outbreak of the Heresy with around 150,000 Astartes.
Post-Heresy, they aren't a Legion anymore and recruitment mostly comes from more Astartes falling to Khorne and joining up with various Warbands.
As for their fighting force, they aren't insane berzerkers all the time. As I have pointed out multiple times now, the Nails are a grinding pain that Astartes can handle until they get into situations of anger or stress, like combat. If the Nails were 100% all the time the Legion wouldn't have escaped Terra but it did. Not every single World Eater is a frothing maniac all the time. You might want to read more than just the Khorne Berzerker unit description.
Do you also have a source for the WE getting massacred in every battle they fight?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Then they should be extinct. The problem with the World Eaters is that they are very clearly and explicitly not an effective fighting force and take massive casualties, yet somehow manage to persist and even succeed despite this. It's bad writing to build up how much the Legion has degraded into a band of stupid berserkers only to shield them from the obvious consequences of it.

Its pretty clearly explained how the legion is able to continue functioning even as it degrades. Likewise, the narrative is very clear that at some point they cease to be an effective fighting force entirely and have degraded beyond the point that their mass inductions and non-Astartes servants can maintain even a sliver of efficacy or utility as anything other than random packs of frothing lunatics. The loss of Bodt and the Sarum Mechanicum/Crimson Priests who were managing the Legions logistics was a pretty big turning point in that regards and marked the "beginning of the end", and any utility they had as a fighting force until the end of the Heresy was basically the result of the other Traitor Legions shepherding them along and trying to manage as much of the legions logistics and capabilities as they could on their behalf. After the Heresy ends, well theres a reason why they are broken up into scattered warbands instead of an organized force, and its doubtful that most World Eaters at that point are actually World Eaters as opposed to a random collection of Khornate astartes.

I struggle to comprehend how thats bad writing. Its perhaps bad perception/comprehension on the fanbase if they didn't take away the right information from the books (or more likely the memesphere that has developed and evolved around the books that has warped perception and understanding far and away from reality on countless issues), but the information is there.

Angron is a perfectly well-developed character. He just doesn't have room for much in the way of character progression. The obsession with having every character having character progression, even if that wouldn't fit the role the character is meant to fill in the story, is first year comp 1 college stuff. Hopefully you grow out of it.

Angrons character arc does have character development, but sometimes that character development is one of regression rather than progression, and thats what Angrons character goes through. I think this is why some people say that some authors write him poorly or that he's one dimensional, because the path his character develops one is not one that is commonly encountered and is taken to such extremes as to be incomprehensible unless you really put some effort into analyzing it. Anyway, point is that his character starts out as being angry but still often lucid and reasonable enough to process the events around him in a manner understandable to most. As it progresses though, that lucidity and reasonableness falls away and the anger, rage, hate, and emotional extremes become more and more prevalent, which might lead some to accuse the character of being flanderized/one-dimensional but... thats literally the point of development of his character. You would turn out the same way too if you had a half your brain removed and replaced with a device that exists only to make you incomprehensibly miserably angry as your brain and nervous system slowly rots away until your death. We won't mention the unilateral blink (common indicator of brain damage), the fact that he has to breathe through his mouth because of a persistent brain-bleed that has his naval cavity perpetually blocked with blood, the fact that his teeth were replaced by metallic blades, and all the other mutilations that collectively add up to pointing to someone who is decisively not in a headspace that would be generally regarded as "healthy" or "normal", let alone approachable or comprehensible to the typical person.

I think most people who are criticizing Angrons character are doing so because they either can't or won't wrap their minds around the idea that this is someone who has suffered so muc h physical, mental, and emotional traum so as to place their character to such an incomprehensibly extreme point on a spectrum of peronality and disorder, etc. that they are unrelatable to anything that anyone even remotely familiar to them. If you expect this character to think and behave as a normal human, than you have entirely missed the point, as the point of Angrons character is that he has been damaged to the point that he is no longer anything like a human being, beyond even the still relatively human behaviors and thinking of the other Primarchs.

The only real problem with Angron specifically is that the narrative on some level doesn't seem to ever acknowledge that Angron in fact has no agency and treats him like he does.

Disagreed, hard. I think the narrative is pretty clear that Angron has no agency and is not in control of his own path. Basically every major point of the narrative makes it pretty clear that Angron is someone elses slave and subject to the control of someone elses will. feth, I just posted several quotes about it.

The other characters in the story, on the other hand, never really seem to acknowledge the fact that Angron has no agency and generally treat him like he does, and that is part of the tragedy. Ultimately he is a hurt and lost abused puppy that needed a lot of medical and psychiatric help which he never received, instead he received scorn and disdain from his brothers (who for the most part were largely in the dark about his condition courtesy of Big E hiding the nature of the Nails from everyone, including Angron himself), and was used and discarded as a tool by his father, all of whom treated him as though he was of sound mind/judgement and in control of his own person, let alone the events transpiring around him. All of this was potentially avoidable if different decisions were made *for* him earlier on (the most obvious being that he was left to die on Nuceria - but there were other options there too).

chaos0xomega wrote:

Nah, he's just as enslaved as ever. The bloodlust that the Nails gave him is replaced by the bloodlust that Khorne gave him.

That's certainly a take, and we'll see how much of that Black Library characterization is carried forward. 10k years is enough time to change, even for a demon prince.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Its pretty clearly explained how the legion is able to continue functioning even as it degrades. Likewise, the narrative is very clear that at some point they cease to be an effective fighting force entirely and have degraded beyond the point that their mass inductions and non-Astartes servants can maintain even a sliver of efficacy or utility as anything other than random packs of frothing lunatics. The loss of Bodt and the Sarum Mechanicum/Crimson Priests who were managing the Legions logistics was a pretty big turning point in that regards and marked the "beginning of the end", and any utility they had as a fighting force until the end of the Heresy was basically the result of the other Traitor Legions shepherding them along and trying to manage as much of the legions logistics and capabilities as they could on their behalf. After the Heresy ends, well theres a reason why they are broken up into scattered warbands instead of an organized force, and its doubtful that most World Eaters at that point are actually World Eaters as opposed to a random collection of Khornate astartes.

I struggle to comprehend how thats bad writing. Its perhaps bad perception/comprehension on the fanbase if they didn't take away the right information from the books (or more likely the memesphere that has developed and evolved around the books that has warped perception and understanding far and away from reality on countless issues), but the information is there.

Random Khornate Astartes are not World Eaters. So it is still an open question as to how they've persisted for so long.

Hecaton wrote:
Random Khornate Astartes are not World Eaters. So it is still an open question as to how they've persisted for so long.

The same way the rest of the Traitor Legions work. Those that were of the Legions take in new recruits through various means such as enlisting the services of someone like Fabius Bile or by adding other Warbands to their own through good old fashioned "I'm your boss now, any questions can be directed to the corpse of your old boss". The World Eaters don't really exist anymore anyway, like most of the Legions. They congregate for slaughter, do the slaughter, then generally slaughter each other until they get bored and leave.

 Gert wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Random Khornate Astartes are not World Eaters. So it is still an open question as to how they've persisted for so long.

The same way the rest of the Traitor Legions work. Those that were of the Legions take in new recruits through various means such as enlisting the services of someone like Fabius Bile or by adding other Warbands to their own through good old fashioned "I'm your boss now, any questions can be directed to the corpse of your old boss". The World Eaters don't really exist anymore anyway, like most of the Legions. They congregate for slaughter, do the slaughter, then generally slaughter each other until they get bored and leave.

The World Eaters operate on a warband basis, you're right. But my point is that unless they have Angron's gene-seed, they aren't World Eaters.

 Gert wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Random Khornate Astartes are not World Eaters. So it is still an open question as to how they've persisted for so long.

The same way the rest of the Traitor Legions work. Those that were of the Legions take in new recruits through various means such as enlisting the services of someone like Fabius Bile or by adding other Warbands to their own through good old fashioned "I'm your boss now, any questions can be directed to the corpse of your old boss". The World Eaters don't really exist anymore anyway, like most of the Legions. They congregate for slaughter, do the slaughter, then generally slaughter each other until they get bored and leave.

This.

But also, how do you define World Eaters? By gene-seed? Because a lot of the chaos marines in other legions don't carry the gene seed of their supposed primarchs either... In at least one instance Abaddon replenishes the ranks of the Black Legion with gene-seed harvested from the Emperors Children. Honsou is a hybrid of Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists geneseed, and likewise the Iron Warriors are known to steal geneseed from the Imperium (its literally a plot point in Storm if Iron or Iron Warrior, forget which) in order to produce new Iron Warriors - they obviously aren't stealing IW genestocks because the Imperium destroyed the majority of the traitor legions geneseeds, so they are clearly using loyalist geneseed to refill their ranks. The Death Guards geneseed is unusable due to Nurgles rot and the only way new Death Guard can be created is by using the gene seed of other chapters and legions, loyalist and traior alike. Night Lords steal loyalist geneseed in the Night Lords trilogy (major plot point in those books). World Eaters are likewise known to steal geneseed as well as pay Fabius Bile to produce new marines, as well as being described as recruiting marines from other chapters and legions (as do the Black Legion) - Zhufor the Impaler is a World Eater... but hes also formally a marine of the Storm Lords chapter until he was taken captive, drugged, tortured, operated on, and brainwashed into becoming a World Eater.

hell, the majority of Thousand Sons marines in the 41st millennium have no gene seed at all because, yknow, "all is dust". So if gene-seed is your metric for this then you have a problem as the majority of Death Guard are in fact basically random Nurgley Astartes and the majority of Thousand Sons are technically not Astartes at all.

So yeah, World Eaters in the 41st millennium basically *ARE* random Khornate Astartes, per the official fluff.

Hecaton wrote:
The World Eaters operate on a warband basis, you're right. But my point is that unless they have Angron's gene-seed, they aren't World Eaters.

That's very eugenics of you.

chaos0xomega wrote:
So yeah, World Eaters in the 41st millennium basically *ARE* random Khornate Astartes, per the official fluff.

I'd put dollars to donuts that this will be retconned, if it's mentioned, in the WE codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
The World Eaters operate on a warband basis, you're right. But my point is that unless they have Angron's gene-seed, they aren't World Eaters.

That's very eugenics of you.

It's 40k. Eugenics is the name of the game.

I don't see why it would be retconned, this is fairly recent/"active" fluff in general and consistent with the portrayal of 41st millennium chaos legions. It also fits with the World Eaters specifically, as they are no longer anything bearing any resemblance to a cohesive legion or an organized force and are rather explicitly a group of independent and uncoordinated warbands. There might be a warband that has found a way to keep themselves pure to Angrons geneseed... but theres also definitely one that doesn't care whos geneseed causes blood to spill, so long as it does spill.

Thanks for that! Fascinating stuff about characters and a legion I have read little about. Certainly a lot more nuanced and interesting than I had assumed!

As the world eaters will have had to recruit new marines over the last 10k years, do only the original WE from the HH have butchers nails? Or do they only get them if they rise to the rank of Beserker?

Stands to reason that there are still Apothecaries out there that can implant the Nails.

mrFickle wrote:
As the world eaters will have had to recruit new marines over the last 10k years, do only the original WE from the HH have butchers nails? Or do they only get them if they rise to the rank of Beserker?

I think in the 41st millennium the presence of Butchers Nails, rather than Angrons gene-seed, is what seems to define a World Eater. Then again, Abaddon has his own apothecaries hammering butchers nails into black legionnaire berserkers, so maybe not.

Hecaton wrote:
But my point is that unless they have Angron's gene-seed, they aren't World Eaters.

Is this a thing that's only true for World Eaters or are you just uninformed? Because we have tons of in-canon examples of that being patently un-true for other Legions, mixed line Iron Warriors and the vast majority of the Black Legion that attacked Macragge in Gathering Storm having been were created from the stolen storage repository of geneseed being two very prominent examples.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
But my point is that unless they have Angron's gene-seed, they aren't World Eaters.

Is this a thing that's only true for World Eaters or are you just uninformed? Because we have tons of in-canon examples of that being patently un-true for other Legions, mixed line Iron Warriors and the vast majority of the Black Legion that attacked Macragge in Gathering Storm having been were created from the stolen storage repository of geneseed being two very prominent examples.

I gave the answer for that in one of my previous posts, same deal with the World Eaters, they don't necessarily carry Angrons gene-seed, thees a short story out there where a World Eaters warband steal loyalist geneseed to produce new marines for their group, as well as mentions that astartes from other chapters and legions join the World Eaters to serve Khorne. Zhufor the Impaler is a named example of a recruit from another chapter, as he was a Sergeant of the Storm Lords (i.e. Khans gene-seed) before being wounded and captured by a World Eaters warband, who then drugged, tortured, and performed some involuntary psycho-surgery on him and inserted the butchers nails, changed his name and armor, etc. He eventually rose through the ranks and became the leader of a world eaters warband himself.

Gert wrote:Stands to reason that there are still Apothecaries out there that can implant the Nails.

The old Index Astartes article on World Eaters explicitly talked about ‘berserker-surgeons’ who implanted the nails into new recruits.

chaos0xomega wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
As the world eaters will have had to recruit new marines over the last 10k years, do only the original WE from the HH have butchers nails? Or do they only get them if they rise to the rank of Beserker?

I think in the 41st millennium the presence of Butchers Nails, rather than Angrons gene-seed, is what seems to define a World Eater. Then again, Abaddon has his own apothecaries hammering butchers nails into black legionnaire berserkers, so maybe not.

Maybe a combination?

Get the nails implemented
Get a fetching blood-and-brass colour scheme
Join up with a warband that identifies as being World Eaters

And job’s a good ‘un, you’re now a World Eater.

Yep, that is more or less my present understanding of how it goes.

I’d add anyone who consumes an actual planet, but that’s more of a tyranid thing.

Anyone try putting butcher’s nails into a carnafex?

The traitor legions are definitely much looser with their geneseed than loyalists, simply because they just don't have access to much of their own. And they care more about results than any concept of genetic purity. It's more important how their recruits are raised and trained than whose bloodline they came from. Hence why they'll steal geneseed any time they can.

The Apothecaries report that removing the Butcher’s Nails from the lore would kill the lore. Sorry. You have to find a way to live with them.

Fabius is supplying new CSM to legions using EC gene seed. It’s about numbers and most of the CSM pretty much hate their primarch so aren’t fussy about where it comes from.

chaos0xomega wrote:

lolwut? The only primarch that even debatably had it worse than Angron was Konrad Curze (and maybe Alpharius depending on which version of events you believe). Most other Primarchs were taken in and raised by a loving family or a nurturing guardian/mentor and given every opportuntiy to succeed, if not then they at least found themselves in a position to succeed by virtue of being an environment that gave them access to the necessary resources and means to achieve greatness. Only Angron and Curze (leaving Alpharius own mysterious origins) were essentially put into a gakky situation - Curze had to raise himself on murder in a nightmarish and violent slum, but he at least had *freedom* and *agency* to make his own decisions and pursue his own path within the circumstances available to him. Angron was enslaved from basically the very get-go, tortured, mutilated, and broken, and forced to fight and kill against his will. The closest thing he had to a friend, mentor, or father figure was a fellow-gladiator who he was forced to kill. His attempts to rebel and seize control of the world - like his brothers would have - all ended in failure because, yknow, he was damaged and broken and without the necessary faculties and tools needed to do so. He was a failed primarch, not because he didn't live up to expectations, but because he was phyiscally incapable of doing so.

Angron had a rough start, he killed an Eldar squad right after landing and immediately getting enslaved by the slavers, but it's not even comparable to Mortarion who landed on a planet who had AIDS and his dad was a necromancer, or Leman who got raised by Wolves. Angron was forced to fight in the Gladiator arena and quickly rose to fame and also found a father figure to guide him. He tried to escape a number of times and each time he got his ass kicked, that just shows how bad he was. Corax had a similar upbringing and he didn't get captured, Conrad and even crushed into its planet's crust and, crawled his way through lava and then he hide from all the rapists and murderers and he still became king of Nostramo. After letting himself getting the Nails by force to kill his daddy figure, Angron deserves everything that's happened to him. Every other Primarch would've gotten away from Angron situation, but this guy can't escape and some subhumans plant the nails in his brain.

Everybody points out that the Emperor was bad towards Angron, yes I know that. The Emperor was a dick towards some of his sons and was good to others. It shows how much of a Meme lord he is.

The WE had it better before Angron, they were the only legion who negatively benefited after their reunion with their Primarch. They also inherited the only Primarch who couldn't conquer his planet.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Angron has to my knowledge literally never been beaten one on one by another Primarch. He crushed Leman Russ in a duel, with Russ already being one of the upper tier Primarchs in melee combat. For all of Angron's faults he still legitimately is the best or nearly the best martial combatant of the Primarchs.

It's just that he's a terrible general so even while crushing Russ in single combat his troops were outmaneuvered and formed a kill circle around Angron and would have been able to execute him if that had been their intention, showing to Angron that, as strong as he is, his Legion had deteriorated so much as a fighting force that they were completely incapable of thinking beyond fighting the guy in front of them and as such were easily outperformed by a disciplined and well-trained army. Which is undercut by all the successes of the World Eaters but you know. Also not sure how Marines leveling their bolters against a Primarch in full armour is meant to be threatening considering the hilarious gak Angron survives in that novel alone but there's ADB's gakky writing for you.

Angron knocked Leman on his ass, however Leman baited Angron into a kill zone. He was surrounded by guns that would blow him to shreds in seconds. Despite the WE fury in combat and wining in kill count, they had no strategies and Angron was at Lemans mercy. Leman should've done what should have been done before, press the "eliminate" button but he just couldn't bring himself to kills brother and retreated. After this Angron thought he won against Leman and the SW. In the book Betrayer, the conversation between Lorgar and Angron is proof is what Lorgar says to Angron, that he is pathetic and how Leman stomped his ass during the battle because how briliant he was, while Angron insists he won because they killed more SW. It shows how little the WE cared for Angron as the majority of them didn't notice he was in danger and the many that did, didn't care.

No - they're a core staple of the fluff for the World Eaters and Angron

Don't cancel butchers nails

 F.E.A.R. wrote:
Angron had a rough start, he killed an Eldar squad right after landing and immediately getting enslaved by the slavers, but it's not even comparable to Mortarion who landed on a planet who had AIDS and his dad was a necromancer, or Leman who got raised by Wolves. Angron was forced to fight in the Gladiator arena and quickly rose to fame and also found a father figure to guide him. He tried to escape a number of times and each time he got his ass kicked, that just shows how bad he was. Corax had a similar upbringing and he didn't get captured, Conrad and even crushed into its planet's crust and, crawled his way through lava and then he hide from all the rapists and murderers and he still became king of Nostramo. After letting himself getting the Nails by force to kill his daddy figure, Angron deserves everything that's happened to him. Every other Primarch would've gotten away from Angron situation, but this guy can't escape and some subhumans plant the nails in his brain.

Corax wasn't a pit slave, he was hidden when discovered by a slave on Lycaeus (now Deliverance) and was specifically trained in stealth and insurgent warfare as well as philosophy and politics. Corax

Curze was never found by anyone. He landed and was on his own for his entire early life. He only became Nostramo's ruler after he brutally murdered thousands of people and created a culture of obedience through fear. There wasn't an organised resistance against Curze because everyone was too scared of him, he was more than a person he was a monster.

Angron got captured while unconscious and was made a gladiator with no opportunity to learn to be anything but a fighter.
Do you maybe want to actually read the background before you make statements?

The WE had it better before Angron, they were the only legion who negatively benefited after their reunion with their Primarch. They also inherited the only Primarch who couldn't conquer his planet.

Yeah, that was the point. Angron's entire character is poison to his sons because his life was utter garbage both before and after the Emperor found him. The point of Angron is someone who has tragedy in their past and instead of being able to deal with it, they lash out at everyone else. Angron never got any real help because he suited the Emperor's purpose, up until a point. He was the rabid dog on a short leash who would be let off to commit insane violence to prevent long-lasting wars of conquest.

 Gert wrote:


Curze was never found by anyone. He landed and was on his own for his entire early life. He only became Nostramo's ruler after he brutally murdered thousands of people and created a culture of obedience through fear. There wasn't an organised resistance against Curze because everyone was too scared of him, he was more than a person he was a monster.

I never said that Curze was found by anyone. I literally said that he landed in the planet's crust, had to crawl through magma, then had to hide from rapists and murderers as a toddler, lost his fething marbles and he was still able to become king of Nostramo.

 F.E.A.R. wrote:
I never said that Curze was found by anyone. I literally said that he landed in the planet's crust, had to crawl through magma, then had to hide from rapists and murderers as a toddler, lost his fething marbles and he was still able to become king of Nostramo.

Except none of the Primarchs were ever toddlers, they were young but at the very least just before puberty, not babies.
As for the hiding part, it was a world eternally shrouded in darkness and was heavily populated and crime-ridden, it would be easy for a Primarch to hide. Curze also stopped "hiding" very early on and made himself known as a violent vigilante. Corax actually was hidden from his planet's rulers but the slaves of his world.

The slavers found no value in Angron despite being a demigod. He was instantly seen as a toy to be thrown at the dogs. Primarchs like Sanguinius and Fulgrim were able to influence the people around them into looking after them. That just shows how uncompelling Angron was. He tried to escape numerous times but failed, while pretty much any Primarch would've escaped with ease, Corvus would invis out, Sanguinius would fly away, Magnus would TP away, Horus and Lorgar would talk their way out of it, Gman would organize a rebellion, Vulkan and Ferrus would punch their way out. Angron couldn't even convince his warlords having him on their side would be more valuable instead of stabbing gaks half of his size.

They did find value in Angron being a demi-god, when he showed great promise during his first "match" it was proclaimed was going to be their greatest source of entertainment ever. He was literally called "The Unbeaten". That being said, escaping slavery is not an easy thing to do. Angron was young and didn't know strategy as Corax did, all he knew was how to kill. He also did escape with his army of gladiators when he eventually learned how to organise his fellow slaves.
You compare him to Primarchs who were raised in places where teaching was common and Angron didn't have that. He learned how to survive and how to kill. That's it. The Nails even robbed him of his ability to remove pain from others.

No that's not the point. It's bad writing. The Primarchs were created to be less or more equal. Lorgar fought like a bitch but he did instigate the HH, which was a pretty impactful thing to do. Sanguinius might be a god tier super warrior but he is angsty bitch with poor commanding skills. All of them fit roughly on the same plane of quality except Angron. Although the Butcher's Nails are easily to be blamed, Angron was gak without them to begin with. Is he an interesting character? No! He is a raging one dimensional daemon that's entirely uninteresting or compelling, even as a non-daemon he was still pretty lame. That's called bad writing, all we got is an unlikable dick with a mentality of a 9 year old rage daemon. This affect also rubbed off his sons, name one World Eater that in current setting is enjoyable. Kharn lost his mind, and now is a angry killing emotionless machine, the rest of the WE scream Khornes name all day.

They absolutely were not created equally. Magnus was an immensely powerful Psyker second to the Emperor, Vulkan was functionally immortal, and Curze and Sanguinius could see the future. The other Primarchs had their strengths as well but by no means were they equal even when the Emperor intended for them to be crafted in His image.
Angron being one dimensional when he has become a shard of Khorne is hilarious because who cares? His Crusade and HH era character is that we know where he ends up and how he could have changed his fate but deliberately chose not to because the path he walked was easier. He could have been a better person and forbid his sons the pain of the Nails but he was a broken man who wanted everyone else to feel his pain.
As for good WE characters, Lheorvine Ukris and Arrian Zorzi. Both really good.

You should also watch your language. If you can't get your point across about a fictional setting without swearing then don't bother.

F.E.A.R. wrote:He tried to escape a number of times and each time he got his ass kicked, that just shows how bad he was.

Or how capable his captors were.

Everybody points out that the Emperor was bad towards Angron, yes I know that. The Emperor was a dick towards some of his sons and was good to others. It shows how much of a Meme lord he is.

Sorry, what?

The WE had it better before Angron, they were the only legion who negatively benefited after their reunion with their Primarch. They also inherited the only Primarch who couldn't conquer his planet.

Yes. That's the point.

In the book Betrayer, the conversation between Lorgar and Angron is proof is what Lorgar says to Angron, that he is pathetic and how Leman stomped his ass during the battle because how briliant he was, while Angron insists he won because they killed more SW. It shows how little the WE cared for Angron as the majority of them didn't notice he was in danger and the many that did, didn't care.

So you've read Betrayer, and still don't think Angron is a detailed character? Just how much did you read?

F.E.A.R. wrote:The slavers found no value in Angron despite being a demigod. He was instantly seen as a toy to be thrown at the dogs. Primarchs like Sanguinius and Fulgrim were able to influence the people around them into looking after them. That just shows how uncompelling Angron was. He tried to escape numerous times but failed, while pretty much any Primarch would've escaped with ease, Corvus would invis out, Sanguinius would fly away, Magnus would TP away, Horus and Lorgar would talk their way out of it, Gman would organize a rebellion, Vulkan and Ferrus would punch their way out. Angron couldn't even convince his warlords having him on their side would be more valuable instead of stabbing gaks half of his size.

I don't think any of those are correct - I think any Primarch put in Angron's situation, maybe with the exception of Sanguinius (and even then, he'd probably have his wings ripped from him) would have suffered the same fate. All those traits that you ascribe to other Primarch are either ones that Angron was more than capable of possessing (punching their way out), or ones that were learned/developed over time (Corax's shadewalking and Magnus's magic) or simply traits learned from their upbringings (Guilliman and Lorgar's oratory).

The point of Angron's tragedy is what he *could* have been if he hadn't landed in just the worse situation of all the Primarchs. If you change that, then you change what has made Angron such a compelling character.

 Gert wrote:
Yeah, that was the point. Angron's entire character is poison to his sons because his life was utter garbage both before and after the Emperor found him. The point of Angron is someone who has tragedy in their past and instead of being able to deal with it, they lash out at everyone else. Angron never got any real help because he suited the Emperor's purpose, up until a point. He was the rabid dog on a short leash who would be let off to commit insane violence to prevent long-lasting wars of conquest.

No that's not the point. It's bad writing.

From someone who can't make a point without calling someone a bitch, I don't think you're a great arbiter of what's "bad writing".

The Primarchs were created to be less or more equal.

They really weren't. Even in their test tubes, there were differences (Magnus' third eye, Russ' Canis Helix, Sanguinius' wings).

Is he an interesting character? No! He is a raging one dimensional daemon that's entirely uninteresting or compelling, even as a non-daemon he was still pretty lame.

Tell me you haven't read any of ADB's Angron stories without telling me you haven't.

Angron gets beaten once by Russ because Russ and the Wolves outmaneuver the World Eaters in an attempt to show Angron that barbarism and bloodshed don't diverge from tactics.

Except he isn't actually beaten; that's one of the reasons Angron doesn't accept he lost when Lorgar tries to tell him that.

Angron beats Russ in a fight and then discovers that during that fight he's been surrounded and cut off by Russ' men. Sure.

But.....so what? They can't stop him without killing him and they don't have the authority to do that. Russ is bluffing and Angron sees that almost immediately. That's only him losing if he accepts he's lost and he doesn't.


And besides, having the opportunity to kill him stilling a win because - spinal level survival instinct aside (which is mostly suppressed by the nails anyway) he genuinely doesn't care. Russ' whole plan to intimidate him hinged on Angron giving a crap about his own survival and....he DOESNT. Which means Russ' lesson boils down to 'you've lost because I say you've lost' to which Angron quite rightly retorts 'and you still have a head and limbs because I let you crawl away in the dirt'.


As to character development, Angron does have plenty of moments. Yes, he's basically the Hulk when his nails fire, but his interactions with characters like Lotara Sarin and especially the Conqueror's scrymistress show what he WOULD have been like.

The point of Angron's tragedy is what he *could* have been if he hadn't landed in just the worse situation of all the Primarchs. If you change that, then you change what has made Angron such a compelling character.

Exactly so. He even makes this exact point to Gulliman who literally got handed the position of heir apparent to an entire world and then has the hypocrisy to rant at him about courage and honour.
And besides, even then when dumped on by the entire world he still broke out and turned a bunch of prisoners into an army that required mobilising most of the planet's military to crush. That's basically the same as Corax, except Corax was never a prisoner - his enemies never k ew he existed until too late - whilst angron did it whilst busting out of a maximum security prison with brain crippling cybernetics in his head.

 F.E.A.R. wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

lolwut? The only primarch that even debatably had it worse than Angron was Konrad Curze (and maybe Alpharius depending on which version of events you believe). Most other Primarchs were taken in and raised by a loving family or a nurturing guardian/mentor and given every opportuntiy to succeed, if not then they at least found themselves in a position to succeed by virtue of being an environment that gave them access to the necessary resources and means to achieve greatness. Only Angron and Curze (leaving Alpharius own mysterious origins) were essentially put into a gakky situation - Curze had to raise himself on murder in a nightmarish and violent slum, but he at least had *freedom* and *agency* to make his own decisions and pursue his own path within the circumstances available to him. Angron was enslaved from basically the very get-go, tortured, mutilated, and broken, and forced to fight and kill against his will. The closest thing he had to a friend, mentor, or father figure was a fellow-gladiator who he was forced to kill. His attempts to rebel and seize control of the world - like his brothers would have - all ended in failure because, yknow, he was damaged and broken and without the necessary faculties and tools needed to do so. He was a failed primarch, not because he didn't live up to expectations, but because he was phyiscally incapable of doing so.

Angron had a rough start, he killed an Eldar squad right after landing and immediately getting enslaved by the slavers, but it's not even comparable to Mortarion who landed on a planet who had AIDS and his dad was a necromancer, or Leman who got raised by Wolves. Angron was forced to fight in the Gladiator arena and quickly rose to fame and also found a father figure to guide him. He tried to escape a number of times and each time he got his ass kicked, that just shows how bad he was. Corax had a similar upbringing and he didn't get captured, Conrad and even crushed into its planet's crust and, crawled his way through lava and then he hide from all the rapists and murderers and he still became king of Nostramo. After letting himself getting the Nails by force to kill his daddy figure, Angron deserves everything that's happened to him. Every other Primarch would've gotten away from Angron situation, but this guy can't escape and some subhumans plant the nails in his brain.

lolwut?

Mortarion had a dad. Someone who protected him, taught him, and evidently cared for him - perhaps not lovingly or warmly, but enough to consider him his son and heir.

Russ may have been raised by wolves, but he had protection and warmth, raised as the wolfs own cub. His education may have been wolf-y, but the wolf was doing the best she could, okay? And not long after he (and his wolf-siblings) were taken in by Fenrisian humans who raised him with respect and reverence to become their king.

Corax had parents and friends who loved him, protected him, taught him, and raised him. He was never a slave, but lived a hidden life with them, invisible to the overseers and slavemasters.

You're interpreting Curzes background a bit more literally than is justified, theres no real proof that Curze landed in a lava-filled pit in the planets interior and swam his way through lava - most primarchs don't really have any memories of their arrival or early childhood, and as he didn't have parents there would be nobody who could have witnessed it or known about it, so its unlikely that this is true and is likely just part of the local Nostraman myth of the "Night Haunter" demon that stalked their planet. In any case, he might have been in a bad situation sans parental figures... but he had time, freedom, and the ability to make his own choices and forge his own path.

Angron was found (already beaten, bleeding, and badly wounded), shackled, enslaved, mutilated, lobotomized/had entire sections of his brain removed (even before the Butchers Nails were put into him per Arkhan Land, i.e. he was likely mentally damaged from not long after he was captured), tortured, and forced into the gladiator pits from the get-go. He didn't have his father figure for that long (the description given implies it was over a timespan measured in "months"), because it wasn't long before he was forced to kill him via what was basically an implanted mind-control device which he was *forced* to get (no, he didn't "let himself" get them). His ordeal caused his growth to be physically stunted, and his mental capacity to be stripped from him - in early childhood he displayed latent psychic abilities but by adulthood this was no longer the case because of the lobotomization and nails. By the time the emperor found him, he had a unilateral blink (i.e. he blinks his eyes one eye at a time - this is a real world indicator of severe brain damage), he could barely speak in coherent full sentences, his teeth have been replaced with metal, he can only breathe through his mouth because a persistent brain bleed keeps his nasal passages blocked with clots, his facial muscles and parts of his body twitch randomly, etc. As it says in Betrayer, "Outside of battle, he was a ruined thing, a shadow of what could - and should - have been." He is literally a ruined, damaged, failure of a primarch because of his experience on Nuceria, the fact that the same could not be said of any of hte other Primarchs speaks directly to the fact that Angron had it worse than all of them.

It also bares mentioning that Nuceria was an Imperial world, unlike the others which were brought into compliance following the Emperors arrival, the world was already compliant and Angron was enslaved by the planetary rulers, who had resources available to them that none of the other Primarchs had to contend with. This is part of the reason why Angron couldn't conquer the world - because it was already under the Emperors rule and the Imperial bureaucracy wasn't going to allow a slave revolt to change that. This is also part of what alerted the Emperor to Angrons presence, because his rebellion fethed up the planets tithes and brought more attention to the planet than it would have had otherwise.

The other primarchs situations clearly all had it better than him. I would argue that *none* of the other Primarchs would have succeeded or done any better than Angron did if the situation was reversed, quite a few of them likely would have died before the slavers ever even got to them given the condition Angron was found in after he killed off the xenos hit-squad sent after him. Also, you're like, one critically awful hot take away from posting "slavery is good, actually".

The WE had it better before Angron, they were the only legion who negatively benefited after their reunion with their Primarch. They also inherited the only Primarch who couldn't conquer his planet.

Gert wrote: The point of Angron is someone who has tragedy in their past and instead of being able to deal with it, they lash out at everyone else.

I don't know there is much you can do to "deal with" having half your brain literally removed and an evidently unremovable implant installed that makes the function of the remaining half of your brain decidedly worse. F.E.A.R. may be missing the point entirely, but you're still falling a bit short of the critical understanding of "the point" yourself if you think this is simply a case of a tragic past with issues that need to be worked out in therapy, as is the case with most of the other Primarchs.

The slavers found no value in Angron despite being a demigod. He was instantly seen as a toy to be thrown at the dogs. Primarchs like Sanguinius and Fulgrim were able to influence the people around them into looking after them. That just shows how uncompelling Angron was. He tried to escape numerous times but failed, while pretty much any Primarch would've escaped with ease, Corvus would invis out, Sanguinius would fly away, Magnus would TP away, Horus and Lorgar would talk their way out of it, Gman would organize a rebellion, Vulkan and Ferrus would punch their way out. Angron couldn't even convince his warlords having him on their side would be more valuable instead of stabbing gaks half of his size.

Again, lolwut? Sanguinius was found as an infant and spared from death by the compassion of the people who found him, nothing to do with "influence" there. He grew to adulthood in the span of a year and because of what are basically primarch superpowers allowing him to survive without radiation suits, and his angelic wings, and his ability to singhle-handedly fight and kill any of the threats that tried to attack his tribe he became their leader and later united all the other tribes as well. No "influence" there either. Fulgrim was likewise found as a child by a trio of miners and one of them tried to kill him but was shot dead before he could by the others, who then convinced the planetary leaders to let them raise Fulgrim as their own child instead of executing him like they did with other orphans. Not much influence there either. His success as a worker and an engineer is what lead him to leadership of the planet, not "influence". I don't know that Corvus, Sanguinius, and Magnus having superpowers that none of the other Primarchs did is a particularly persuasive argument against Angron. If Horus, Lorgar, GMan, Vulkan, and Ferrus were on Nuceria instead they would have been lobotomized like Angron was and just as ineffective at escapaing.

No that's not the point. It's bad writing. The Primarchs were created to be less or more equal. Lorgar fought like a bitch but he did instigate the HH, which was a pretty impactful thing to do. Sanguinius might be a god tier super warrior but he is angsty bitch with poor commanding skills. All of them fit roughly on the same plane of quality except Angron. Although the Butcher's Nails are easily to be blamed, Angron was gak without them to begin with. Is he an interesting character? No! He is a raging one dimensional daemon that's entirely uninteresting or compelling, even as a non-daemon he was still pretty lame. That's called bad writing, all we got is an unlikable dick with a mentality of a 9 year old rage daemon. This affect also rubbed off his sons, name one World Eater that in current setting is enjoyable. Kharn lost his mind, and now is a angry killing emotionless machine, the rest of the WE scream Khornes name all day.

Its not bad writing at all. You couldn't possibly know if it was bad writing to begin with, because you clearly haven't read anything about Angron that wasn't published on wikipedia or whatever. The Primarchs weren't all created as equals, they were all created with specific purpose in mind for each of them, for one of them that purpose was leading the others - QED they were not all equals. Even if they were all created as equals, a big *point* of Angrons character is that the slavers destroyed the Emperors creation and turned him into something other than what he was intended to be.

Your argument in general has no basis. "Lorgar sucks but he did a thing so hes okay" is an opinion, not a fact. And Sanguinius - the primarch known for his perfect leadership - having poor commanding skills? Okay. He might not have been the best military strategist, but he was far from a poor commander or a bad general. Also don't know how you say "Angron was gak without them" (the butchers nails) when he was basically a child when he got the butchers nails. Angrons innate powers were basically stripped from him before they could even develop. We never saw what Angron was like without the butchers nails, because he had them from before he was able to fully develop. You would be saying that Corvus, Sanguinius, Magnus, Horus, Lorgar, GMan, Vulkan, Ferrus, etc. were gak without them too, because you would never have had the opportunity to see what they were capable of without them.

Gert wrote:Except none of the Primarchs were ever toddlers, they were young but at the very least just before puberty, not babies.

Thats not accurate.

They did find value in Angron being a demi-god, when he showed great promise during his first "match" it was proclaimed was going to be their greatest source of entertainment ever. He was literally called "The Unbeaten". That being said, escaping slavery is not an easy thing to do. Angron was young and didn't know strategy as Corax did, all he knew was how to kill. He also did escape with his army of gladiators when he eventually learned how to organise his fellow slaves.
You compare him to Primarchs who were raised in places where teaching was common and Angron didn't have that. He learned how to survive and how to kill. That's it. The Nails even robbed him of his ability to remove pain from others.

This is accurate. But the Nails (and prior lobotomizations) didn't just rob him of his empathic abilities, they robbed him of the ability to think, reason, lead, learn, etc. He wasn't the prodigy that the other Primarchs were because the ability to be that was taken from him before he could ever put it to use. Basically all of F.E.A.R.s arguments boil down to "Angron's a bad character because hes mentally handicapped and a failure", ignoring the part where that is literally the whole point of how he is written and his character and narrative arc. When you point that out, that becomes "thats bad writing" because apparently characters aren't allowed to be mentally handicapped or a failure, ever.

They absolutely were not created equally. Magnus was an immensely powerful Psyker second to the Emperor, Vulkan was functionally immortal, and Curze and Sanguinius could see the future. The other Primarchs had their strengths as well but by no means were they equal even when the Emperor intended for them to be crafted in His image.

100%

Angron being one dimensional when he has become a shard of Khorne is hilarious because who cares? His Crusade and HH era character is that we know where he ends up and how he could have changed his fate but deliberately chose not to because the path he walked was easier. He could have been a better person and forbid his sons the pain of the Nails but he was a broken man who wanted everyone else to feel his pain.
As for good WE characters, Lheorvine Ukris and Arrian Zorzi. Both really good.

Again, no. I don't know what part of "Angron is mentally handicapped" people on both sides of this argument aren't understanding/ Angron couldn't change that fact if he wanted to or deliberately choose to not be mentally handicapped, etc. Angron is a broken bastard, he gave his sons the Nails because he hated them and the Emperor, whereas his sons begged him for them so they could be more like him - Angron allowed it in a form of cruel irony and mockery of them and the Emperor. One could go a step further and say that the War Hounds represent Angrons own wasted potential - so he broke them the same way he was broken out of spite and self-loathing. An unbroken Angron leading the War Hounds would have been one of the most powerful Primarchs and legions in the Imperium. They ended up as World Eaters instead, as broken and monstrous as their leader.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:I don't think any of those are correct - I think any Primarch put in Angron's situation, maybe with the exception of Sanguinius (and even then, he'd probably have his wings ripped from him) would have suffered the same fate. All those traits that you ascribe to other Primarch are either ones that Angron was more than capable of possessing (punching their way out), or ones that were learned/developed over time (Corax's shadewalking and Magnus's magic) or simply traits learned from their upbringings (Guilliman and Lorgar's oratory).

The point of Angron's tragedy is what he *could* have been if he hadn't landed in just the worse situation of all the Primarchs. If you change that, then you change what has made Angron such a compelling character.

This guy gets it.

Except he isn't actually beaten; that's one of the reasons Angron doesn't accept he lost when Lorgar tries to tell him that.

Angron beats Russ in a fight and then discovers that during that fight he's been surrounded and cut off by Russ' men. Sure.

But.....so what? They can't stop him without killing him and they don't have the authority to do that. Russ is bluffing and Angron sees that almost immediately. That's only him losing if he accepts he's lost and he doesn't.


And besides, having the opportunity to kill him stilling a win because - spinal level survival instinct aside (which is mostly suppressed by the nails anyway) he genuinely doesn't care. Russ' whole plan to intimidate him hinged on Angron giving a crap about his own survival and....he DOESNT. Which means Russ' lesson boils down to 'you've lost because I say you've lost' to which Angron quite rightly retorts 'and you still have a head and limbs because I let you crawl away in the dirt'.


As to character development, Angron does have plenty of moments. Yes, he's basically the Hulk when his nails fire, but his interactions with characters like Lotara Sarin and especially the Conqueror's scrymistress show what he WOULD have been like.

1000%, but to add - Angron being killed by Russ's boys would have been a win for Angron. He didn't care because he *wants* to die.

Exactly so. He even makes this exact point to Gulliman who literally got handed the position of heir apparent to an entire world and then has the hypocrisy to rant at him about courage and honour.
And besides, even then when dumped on by the entire world he still broke out and turned a bunch of prisoners into an army that required mobilising most of the planet's military to crush. That's basically the same as Corax, except Corax was never a prisoner - his enemies never k ew he existed until too late - whilst angron did it whilst busting out of a maximum security prison with brain crippling cybernetics in his head.

Yep. Quotes a good 'un too:



Note though, Guillimans response is F-tier, shows how out-of-touch he was. This is basically the trust-fund kid telling a lobotomized child-slave to "pull himself up by the bootstraps" and become a "self made man" like he did (using a small million dollar loan from his parents).

chaos0xomega wrote:
I don't know there is much you can do to "deal with" having half your brain literally removed and an evidently unremovable implant installed that makes the function of the remaining half of your brain decidedly worse. F.E.A.R. may be missing the point entirely, but you're still falling a bit short of the critical understanding of "the point" yourself if you think this is simply a case of a tragic past with issues that need to be worked out in therapy, as is the case with most of the other Primarchs.

Angron could have not forced his sons into the Nails. He knew what they did and still had the mental capacity to know it wasn't going to do any good. He knew it would help his sons understand him, by making them go through the exact same torture he did. He knew it would kill his sons and he was fine with it.

Thats not accurate.

Some are described as infants or youths but both are very generic terms. Infant in the British sense means a child who is around 4-6 years old yet infant can also just be used to describe any child of any "young" age. It stands to reason that Angron wasn't a toddler in the sense we would know, as he killed a full squad of Xenos sent to kill him, so the term isn't accurate.

Again, no. I don't know what part of "Angron is mentally handicapped" people on both sides of this argument aren't understanding/ Angron couldn't change that fact if he wanted to or deliberately choose to not be mentally handicapped, etc. Angron is a broken bastard, he gave his sons the Nails because he hated them and the Emperor, whereas his sons begged him for them so they could be more like him - Angron allowed it in a form of cruel irony and mockery of them and the Emperor. One could go a step further and say that the War Hounds represent Angrons own wasted potential - so he broke them the same way he was broken out of spite and self-loathing. An unbroken Angron leading the War Hounds would have been one of the most powerful Primarchs and legions in the Imperium. They ended up as World Eaters instead, as broken and monstrous as their leader.

Angron still knew a lot of what he was doing was wrong, he just didn't care. He was broken but he wasn't stupid.

As for Guilliman's last response, it was sort of true to a degree. Angron never moved past Nuceria and preferred to stay buried in the past rather than move on in any way at all. He never had to forgive the Emperor for His mistake or forget the gladiators but forcing the Nails on the World Eaters was very much a conscious decision rooted in his inability to leave the past behind. But that's one of his flaws so it's all good. Well, not all good cos yknow, murder and stuff but.

Angron could have not forced his sons into the Nails. He knew what they did and still had the mental capacity to know it wasn't going to do any good. He knew it would help his sons understand him, by making them go through the exact same torture he did. He knew it would kill his sons and he was fine with it.

Knowing what they do doesn't really matter when your thinking is so compromised that it is questionable as to whether or not you can apply the reasoning needed to differentiate right from wrong or good from bad, let alone properly measure the consequences or consider anything beyond the immediate and directly correlated effects of a decision. We see this a lot from Angron where he offers justification or reasoning for what he feels is right or wrong (sometimes quite compellingly so) or why certain actions are correct, etc. but there are often glaring holes or omissions in his logic and comprehension, etc. The fight vs Russ is a good example, while circumstantially Angron did (in my view) win the altercation, in the grand scheme of things he actually lost and it highlights how he was a tactical/strategic failure - while he may have "won the battle" he still would have "lost the war". If he didn't have half of his brain missing and the other half firing on a few too few cylinders we might say that he was reckless, short-sighted, misguided, and impulsive. Based on some of the actions he takes we might also describe him as evil. But, because he is literally fethed in the head, its better to say that his thinking and reasoning are compromised and he is physically incapable of applying sound reasoning and logic to his decisionmaking (and in fact I would go so far as to say that he shouldn't have any decisionmaking responsibilities whatsoever because the literal state of his brain makes it unlikely for him to be able to exercise those responsibilities with any sort of good judgement, and its unreasonable to expect him to).

Some are described as infants or youths but both are very generic terms. Infant in the British sense means a child who is around 4-6 years old yet infant can also just be used to describe any child of any "young" age. It stands to reason that Angron wasn't a toddler in the sense we would know, as he killed a full squad of Xenos sent to kill him, so the term isn't accurate.

Weird. In the US "infant" means baby and in a technical sense generally refers to someone under1-2 years of age (depending on which medical field, government agency, educational concept, etc. you're dealing with).

Angron still knew a lot of what he was doing was wrong, he just didn't care. He was broken but he wasn't stupid.

As for Guilliman's last response, it was sort of true to a degree. Angron never moved past Nuceria and preferred to stay buried in the past rather than move on in any way at all. He never had to forgive the Emperor for His mistake or forget the gladiators but forcing the Nails on the World Eaters was very much a conscious decision rooted in his inability to leave the past behind. But that's one of his flaws so it's all good. Well, not all good cos yknow, murder and stuff but.

I disagree. Concepts of right and wrong are subjective and largely based on concepts of morality which are learned and instilled via nurture rather than via nature. While we as outside observers can say that Angron was doing things that we view as being wrong, its not easy to say that he was doing things that *he* viewed as being wrong. Putting aside his physically compromised reasoning and decisionmaking capabilities, Angron -like all people and primarchs - is a product of the culture he was raised in. In Angrons case, it was a culture of severe inequality and enforced cruelty and suffering. I think Angron had the understanding that this was in general evil and wrong, and that the Butchers Nails were a terrible curse, but I don't think he had the faculties and clearmindedness to comprehend that directing their implantation into a group that had not only volunteered for it but actually begged him for it actually made him a bad guy or made him like the tyrants that he despised and railed against.

I think in his mind he was simply honoring their wish with the knowledge (which he warned them about) that it would make them miserable and that he would derive ironic pleasure from seeing them as miserable as he was as a result of their own wishes. I don't think he had the self-awareness to comprehend that that made him party to the crime and made him a bad guy. We see this a lot with Angron too, that he lacks the ability for self-awareness and self-reflection needed to understand that he is guilty of many of the things he accuses the High Riders and the Emperor of. He is essentially a "perpetual victim" stereotype, but unlike the "perpetual victims" in the real world who don't have physical brain damage and an obvious mental handicap, he has a pretty good reason for being the way he is and we need to analyze his actions and behaviors with that understanding in mind.

There is one thing about the Butcher's Nails that doesn't make sense to me - but it might be something I've missed somewhere.

If you're going to design a piece of technology to interact with a subject's brain, drive up their rage and adrenaline, etc, and get them addicted to killing - why the heck didn't your design include an effective kill switch in case something went wrong?

The Butchers Nails didn't need one, the lifespan of those who received the Nails was generally very short and it was a terminal death-sentence for its recipients. Angron, being a Primarch and thus superhuman, survived much longer than he was expected to.

Also certainly helps that the Nucerians had no idea how the fething things worked as it was leftover DAoT tech (implied to have been originally intended for a function different from the one that it was being used in).

I disagree. Concepts of right and wrong are subjective and largely based on concepts of morality which are learned and instilled via nurture rather than via nature. While we as outside observers can say that Angron was doing things that we view as being wrong, its not easy to say that he was doing things that *he* viewed as being wrong.

except we DO know it. we KNOW he viewed the nails as a horriable torturous device.

no this isn't a case of "well in my culture..." this is a case of Angron KNEW WHAT THE NAILS WHERE, KNEW WHAT THEY DID.
He pushed his legion getting them out of SPITE. this is WELL documented.

 Gert wrote:

Some are described as infants or youths but both are very generic terms. Infant in the British sense means a child who is around 4-6 years old yet infant can also just be used to describe any child of any "young" age. It stands to reason that Angron wasn't a toddler in the sense we would know, as he killed a full squad of Xenos sent to kill him, so the term isn't accurate.

I have always heard infant used to describe babies up to toddlers in a UK context, not reception/year 1 kids.

 Haighus wrote:

 Gert wrote:

Some are described as infants or youths but both are very generic terms. Infant in the British sense means a child who is around 4-6 years old yet infant can also just be used to describe any child of any "young" age. It stands to reason that Angron wasn't a toddler in the sense we would know, as he killed a full squad of Xenos sent to kill him, so the term isn't accurate.

I have always heard infant used to describe babies up to toddlers in a UK context, not reception/year 1 kids.

Depends where you are in the UK. Some places have infant school (between the ages of four and seven) and junior school (between seven and eleven), where others just have primary school (between four and eleven).

 Haighus wrote:

 Gert wrote:

Some are described as infants or youths but both are very generic terms. Infant in the British sense means a child who is around 4-6 years old yet infant can also just be used to describe any child of any "young" age. It stands to reason that Angron wasn't a toddler in the sense we would know, as he killed a full squad of Xenos sent to kill him, so the term isn't accurate.

I have always heard infant used to describe babies up to toddlers in a UK context, not reception/year 1 kids.

In the US, kids between the ages of 1 and 3 are considered toddlers. Infant is generally used for the time before that.

The point being that "infant", as shown here, is a very generic term that can mean many things. Plus when we add "Primarch" into the mix we're adding in a whole new layer of SciFi science and alchemy. Every one of the Primarchs grew rapidly by human standards and were already capable of beyond-human abilities at young ages. The context matters quite a bit so when F.E.A.R was talking about young Angron, normal expectations wouldn't apply because the Primarchs aren't normal humans.

BrianDavion wrote:

I disagree. Concepts of right and wrong are subjective and largely based on concepts of morality which are learned and instilled via nurture rather than via nature. While we as outside observers can say that Angron was doing things that we view as being wrong, its not easy to say that he was doing things that *he* viewed as being wrong.

except we DO know it. we KNOW he viewed the nails as a horriable torturous device.

no this isn't a case of "well in my culture..." this is a case of Angron KNEW WHAT THE NAILS WHERE, KNEW WHAT THEY DID.
He pushed his legion getting them out of SPITE. this is WELL documented.

Agreed. In my opinion, a good tragedy requires some level of agency, some wrong decision(s) that led to the fall that, while understandable and/or in character for the character, could have been avoided if different decisions had been made.

Fulgrim never had to pick up the Laer blade
Perturabo never had to grind himself and his legion thanklessly against every brick wall they encountered
Curze could have tried to stop what he foresaw in his visions rather than succumbing to it
Angron never had to remain mired in the past and never had to take out his grievances of said past on his legion
Mortarion never had to follow in the footsteps of his fathers.
Magnus never had to make the deals with Tzeentch
Horus never had to trust the Chaos gods
Lorgar never had to follow his ideal of the Emperor rather than the Emperor himself
Alpharius could have learned to trust others

At least, that's my opinion and reading of the tragedies. (OK, don't know much about Mortarion TBH).

Absolutely. It's hard to say there's just one event in many cases (though with fulgrim it's close)

But Angron had opportunities to be more than he was. But unlike his brothers it generally wasn't him making the choices that took them away.

If he didn't have the nails - huge difference, obviously - but he was given the nails for being rebellious and I don't think his character would let him not be.

Equally if the Eaters of Cities had been saved - especially if the War Hounds did the saving - you'd have had a far more loyal and enthusiastic Angron. But that was the Emperor's choice, implied to be because he gave up on Angron more or less immediately on encountering him and understanding what had been done to him.

And angron being mired in the past was GOOD for the imperium. He makes it quite plain to russ he's spent the great crusade in a depressive funk where he can't summon the emotion to do anything but murder whatever target he's pointed at - and that if he had pulled himself out of it and started directing his own life choices, the likely option of taking out what he perceived as the biggest threat to human freedom and dignity would have kicked off the first inter-legionary war a few centuries early as he tried to

"Ascend the steps of the Palace and take the slave-taking bastard's head".

It bears repeating that The Nails were not the be all and end all of Angrons Character.

He was Lobotomized and likely had severe sustained brain injury/trauma.

With just the nails it is doubtful that he would have forced the legion to take them themselves.

Also

The WE were not Angrons sons or brothers.
With the nails, with the brain injuries, with the means of his 'upbringing' and discovery AND with strangers he has no connection with at all claiming to want to know him...forcing the nails on the WE makes more sense than not.

 Dysartes wrote:
There is one thing about the Butcher's Nails that doesn't make sense to me - but it might be something I've missed somewhere.

If you're going to design a piece of technology to interact with a subject's brain, drive up their rage and adrenaline, etc, and get them addicted to killing - why the heck didn't your design include an effective kill switch in case something went wrong?

These are arrogant rich people we are talking about; for beings like that there's no way a mere slave could ever be a threat to individuals as wealthy & powerful as they, they wouldn't even consider the possibility.

 F.E.A.R. wrote:

Angron knocked Leman on his ass, however Leman baited Angron into a kill zone. He was surrounded by guns that would blow him to shreds in seconds. Despite the WE fury in combat and wining in kill count, they had no strategies and Angron was at Lemans mercy. Leman should've done what should have been done before, press the "eliminate" button but he just couldn't bring himself to kills brother and retreated. After this Angron thought he won against Leman and the SW. In the book Betrayer, the conversation between Lorgar and Angron is proof is what Lorgar says to Angron, that he is pathetic and how Leman stomped his ass during the battle because how briliant he was, while Angron insists he won because they killed more SW. It shows how little the WE cared for Angron as the majority of them didn't notice he was in danger and the many that did, didn't care.

You might want to learn how to read instead of repeating what I say back to me.

Angron being a worse general than Leman Russ (any other primarch really) is not in question. You mocked the statement that "nobody can 1v1 Angron" by saying he gets clapped by all his brothers. Harping on about how Leman Russ is a superior general and baited Angron into a kill zone after getting his ass beat one on one with him does not disprove the claim you were mocking.

Indeed. Its actually Russ being equally arrogant here: yes, Angron's in a kill zone. But so what? Pointing a gun at world eater is meaningless unless you use it, and the rout don't because they can't

Russ doesn't have permission to kill him. He's not been sent by the emperor. It's not 'couldn't bring himself to' its that killing him would be straight up murdering a primarch without orders to do so and ends withthe WOLVES, not the world waters, getting sanctioned.

Russ is the one who lands with no real plan if Angron says 'no'.

locarno24 wrote:
Russ doesn't have permission to kill him. He's not been sent by the emperor. It's not 'couldn't bring himself to' its that killing him would be straight up murdering a primarch without orders to do so and ends withthe WOLVES, not the world waters, getting sanctioned.

Now that's a great typo (or autocorrect moment)...

 Dysartes wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Russ doesn't have permission to kill him. He's not been sent by the emperor. It's not 'couldn't bring himself to' its that killing him would be straight up murdering a primarch without orders to do so and ends withthe WOLVES, not the world waters, getting sanctioned.

Now that's a great typo (or autocorrect moment)...

I mean I'm already working on the paint scheme for my new loyalist WE chapter!

Regarding Primarch size, we have Corax recalling emerging from his birthing pod, meeting a slave girl whi gave him her toy, speaking with her, ripping the head off the guard who appeared to torture her, and offering the head to her as a gift.

Reaching up. To a malnourished 6 year old.

Recall the Primarchs were larger than Astartes. Means yes, they started at a maximum as toddlers but outgrew that probably with days or weeks.

Angron's crashed pod was found with him unconscious but alive amid a slaughtered party of Eldar, with multiple wounds to the fore. So a slaver took him and enslaved him.

Corax drew the positive attention of the humans who found him. The youthful Russ the same. Fulgrim induced the colonists who found him to love him. Sanguinius the same. Primarchs pretty clearly had some kind of latent psychic "love me" vibe as children.

Angron was found unconscious and tossed into a gladiator pit where it wouldn't matter. Which makes sense given that this baby/toddler jyst slaughtered an armed war party with his bare hands in a culture embracing slavery and gladiatorial combat. Feral savagery was expected.

Also, Angron survived the Nails- and remained quadi-lucid- due to his brain and the AI of the Nails adapting to each other, with Angton slowly losing. He was able to get other Nail implanted gladiators to work together- possibly his latent brotherhood empathy power, which keeps all the World Eaters from killing each other.

Also bares mentioning that Angron was beloved by the masses... as an enslaved gladiator. Its entirely possible the latent "love me" vibe they gave off backfired, as by the time he was restored to consciousness and health for that vibe to work he was already placed into the context of slavery and gladiatorial fighting. Rather than the vibe going "love me as your leader" it was going "love me as your source of entertainment" - and it worked.

BrainFireBob wrote:
Regarding Primarch size, we have Corax recalling emerging from his birthing pod, meeting a slave girl whi gave him her toy, speaking with her, ripping the head off the guard who appeared to torture her, and offering the head to her as a gift.

Reaching up. To a malnourished 6 year old.

Recall the Primarchs were larger than Astartes. Means yes, they started at a maximum as toddlers but outgrew that probably with days or weeks.

Angron's crashed pod was found with him unconscious but alive amid a slaughtered party of Eldar, with multiple wounds to the fore. So a slaver took him and enslaved him.

Corax drew the positive attention of the humans who found him. The youthful Russ the same. Fulgrim induced the colonists who found him to love him. Sanguinius the same. Primarchs pretty clearly had some kind of latent psychic "love me" vibe as children.

Angron was found unconscious and tossed into a gladiator pit where it wouldn't matter. Which makes sense given that this baby/toddler jyst slaughtered an armed war party with his bare hands in a culture embracing slavery and gladiatorial combat. Feral savagery was expected.

Also, Angron survived the Nails- and remained quadi-lucid- due to his brain and the AI of the Nails adapting to each other, with Angton slowly losing. He was able to get other Nail implanted gladiators to work together- possibly his latent brotherhood empathy power, which keeps all the World Eaters from killing each other.

We actually have a listed height for a Primarch. The Lion outside of his armour is stated in one book to be over three meters tall, or about ten feet.

chaos0xomega wrote:
My take of it is that the Emperor could have removed the Butcher's Nails if he wanted to, just as he could have saved the Gladiators on Nuceria... he just chose not to.

"Master of Mankind" makes it clear this is not the case.

‘Do you see?’ the Emperor asked.

Arkhan saw. The tendrils were sunk deep, rooted in the meat of the brain, threaded to the nervous system, and down in roughly serpentine coils around the spinal column. Every movement must have been agony for the primarch, feeding back into the base emotions of anger and spite.

Worse, the brain’s limbic lobe and insular cortex were more than just savaged by the pain engine’s insertion; they had been surgically attacked and removed even before implantation. The device hammered into his skull hadn’t ruined those sections of the brain – it had replaced them. Ugly black cybernetics showed on the internal scans, in place of entire sections of the primarch’s brain tissue.

‘They are the only thing keeping him alive,’ Arkhan said.

Removing the Nail would be fatal as they have taken over the functions of the removed portions of Angon's brain meaning he could not survive without them. I do agree though that the Emperor could have handled Nuceria better and rescued Angron's friends as well as him.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
We actually have a listed height for a Primarch. The Lion outside of his armour is stated in one book to be over three meters tall, or about ten feet.

I remember someone did some height calculations based on the all the artworks were Primarchs were depicted standing side-by-side with each other or with normal humans. 10 foot seems to have been about the median with Alpharius noticeably shorter around 8 foot (short enough to pass for a tall Astartes). At the upper end Sanguinius and Mortarion come it around 12 feet, the Khan at 14 feet and Magnus topping out the lot at 15 feet. Angron seems to be around 10 feet as well but is usually depicted as hunched over due to the pain of the nails.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Pitiful, more than pathetic. There is a distinction between the two. In terms of actually pathetic I would rate Curze, Perturabo, and Corax much higher. Angron is what he was made into, you can't fault him for being who and what he is because he has no choice in the matter and no capacity to change it. This is uniquely and singularly his plight. In truth the Emperor should have just put him out of his misery the moment it became apparent that the Butchers Nails had permanently damaged him and that he was no longer fully functional. That is pitiful.

The Emperor does consider this MoM but concludes with this line.

'A compromised Primarch is still a Primarch' The Emperor mused

The Emperor knows that the Nails will kill Angron eventually. At least by letting him lead his legion he would be contributing to the Great Crusade. He would be able to help humanity and then hopefully die gloriously somewhere. In a couple of books it is implied that the GC has to be conducted in a hurry because the window of opportunity created by the Fall of the Eldar is quite narrow. If humanity does not conquer the Galaxy now, it will never be able to. Orks will reproduce out fo control and swamp the Galaxy or some other Xenos may rise to fill the power vacuum. The Emperor made some questionable decisions because he knew time was not on his side. If humanity was to survive, the GC needed to succeed quickly. Thus even damaged tools like Angron had to be pressed into service.

 Da Boss wrote:
I just don't love that the nails are put into his legion. I understand how it was written, I've read the books, I just don't think it was the best choice they could have made. A lot about it doesn't make sense to me. Like the nails are supposed to be some crazy archeotech nonsense that even the Emperor cannot disable or remove. So I find it a bit convenient that it can be installed into his thousands of legionnaires no problem.

Installing the Nails is not a problem, it is just that it is a one-way process. In Angron's case, vital parts of his brain were surgically removed and replaced with the Nails meaning he cannot survive without them. Whether the reproduction Nails used in the rest of the World Eaters are the same is not clear. The only ones who tried to remove them were the Librarians and they were killed by their own backfiring psychic powers.

I find it hard to believe that the life-sustaining functions of the nails could not be replaced with more sophisticated cybernetics aimed at restoring normal brain function for Angron.

The Imperium has shown an extremely high level of neurological implantation, with examples of the Ad Mech replacing parts of and augmenting brains being commonplace amongst higher-ranking priesthood. I think it is quite plausible that a replacement for the nails could be made that would sustain Angron's life and alter his personality. Inconsistent medical care for plot purposes is hardly a feature unique to 40k though.

I find it more compelling that the nails could be removed, but the procedure would be risky and may result in the loss of Angron. Therefore, the Emperor, given the time constraints mentioned above, would've felt that having a broken-but-usable tool was better than a significant chance of losing the tool entirely. Obviously a gak move, but I can see the logic.

 Karhedron wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
My take of it is that the Emperor could have removed the Butcher's Nails if he wanted to, just as he could have saved the Gladiators on Nuceria... he just chose not to.

"Master of Mankind" makes it clear this is not the case.

‘Do you see?’ the Emperor asked.

Arkhan saw. The tendrils were sunk deep, rooted in the meat of the brain, threaded to the nervous system, and down in roughly serpentine coils around the spinal column. Every movement must have been agony for the primarch, feeding back into the base emotions of anger and spite.

Worse, the brain’s limbic lobe and insular cortex were more than just savaged by the pain engine’s insertion; they had been surgically attacked and removed even before implantation. The device hammered into his skull hadn’t ruined those sections of the brain – it had replaced them. Ugly black cybernetics showed on the internal scans, in place of entire sections of the primarch’s brain tissue.

‘They are the only thing keeping him alive,’ Arkhan said.

Removing the Nail would be fatal as they have taken over the functions of the removed portions of Angon's brain meaning he could not survive without them. I do agree though that the Emperor could have handled Nuceria better and rescued Angron's friends as well as him.

Do not cite the deep magic to me, witch. I was there when it was written. A couple sentences before this section you quoted, Arkhan asks the Emperor if he can remove the nails, and the Emperor answers, literally, "of course". The implication of the passage in general is that the Emperor is able to remove them, but he isn't necessarily able to repair the damage done to Angron and there are risks in attempting to do so, ergo "a compromised primarch is still a primarch" a few paragraphs later is his justification for not trying, as he risks losing Angron entirely if he removes the nails but isn't able to rebuild him successfully, etc.

I find it hard to believe that the life-sustaining functions of the nails could not be replaced with more sophisticated cybernetics aimed at restoring normal brain function for Angron.

They aren't really "life sustaining" functions, rather the Butchers Nails are doing the exact opposite of that. Prior to implanting the Nails the Nucerians scooped out sections of Angrons brain, so without a replacement for it Angron is basically some sort of vegetable, also the Nails are wired deep into Angrons brain, spine, and probably some other internal organs and have rewired several of Angrons biological functions (release and response of various hormones and neurochemicals, etc.), so even though Big-E very clearly can remove them (per his own statement), he doesn't necessarily have a means of restoring/repairing Angron or making him functional again, or more functional than he already was. There is time/cost/risk involved with attempting it, but theres no reason to because from Big-Es standpoint Angron is still the tool/blunt instrument he needs for his vision to be fulfilled, even if Angron is less than what was originally intended.

I find it more compelling that the nails could be removed, but the procedure would be risky and may result in the loss of Angron. Therefore, the Emperor, given the time constraints mentioned above, would've felt that having a broken-but-usable tool was better than a significant chance of losing the tool entirely. Obviously a gak move, but I can see the logic.

Exactly.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
My take of it is that the Emperor could have removed the Butcher's Nails if he wanted to, just as he could have saved the Gladiators on Nuceria... he just chose not to.

"Master of Mankind" makes it clear this is not the case.

‘Do you see?’ the Emperor asked.

Arkhan saw. The tendrils were sunk deep, rooted in the meat of the brain, threaded to the nervous system, and down in roughly serpentine coils around the spinal column. Every movement must have been agony for the primarch, feeding back into the base emotions of anger and spite.

Worse, the brain’s limbic lobe and insular cortex were more than just savaged by the pain engine’s insertion; they had been surgically attacked and removed even before implantation. The device hammered into his skull hadn’t ruined those sections of the brain – it had replaced them. Ugly black cybernetics showed on the internal scans, in place of entire sections of the primarch’s brain tissue.

‘They are the only thing keeping him alive,’ Arkhan said.

Removing the Nail would be fatal as they have taken over the functions of the removed portions of Angon's brain meaning he could not survive without them. I do agree though that the Emperor could have handled Nuceria better and rescued Angron's friends as well as him.

Do not cite the deep magic to me, witch. I was there when it was written. A couple sentences before this section you quoted, Arkhan asks the Emperor if he can remove the nails, and the Emperor answers, literally, "of course". The implication of the passage in general is that the Emperor is able to remove them, but he isn't necessarily able to repair the damage done to Angron and there are risks in attempting to do so, ergo "a compromised primarch is still a primarch" a few paragraphs later is his justification for not trying, as he risks losing Angron entirely if he removes the nails but isn't able to rebuild him successfully, etc.

I find it hard to believe that the life-sustaining functions of the nails could not be replaced with more sophisticated cybernetics aimed at restoring normal brain function for Angron.

They aren't really "life sustaining" functions, rather the Butchers Nails are doing the exact opposite of that. Prior to implanting the Nails the Nucerians scooped out sections of Angrons brain, so without a replacement for it Angron is basically some sort of vegetable, also the Nails are wired deep into Angrons brain, spine, and probably some other internal organs and have rewired several of Angrons biological functions (release and response of various hormones and neurochemicals, etc.), so even though Big-E very clearly can remove them (per his own statement), he doesn't necessarily have a means of restoring/repairing Angron or making him functional again, or more functional than he already was. There is time/cost/risk involved with attempting it, but theres no reason to because from Big-Es standpoint Angron is still the tool/blunt instrument he needs for his vision to be fulfilled, even if Angron is less than what was originally intended.

I find it more compelling that the nails could be removed, but the procedure would be risky and may result in the loss of Angron. Therefore, the Emperor, given the time constraints mentioned above, would've felt that having a broken-but-usable tool was better than a significant chance of losing the tool entirely. Obviously a gak move, but I can see the logic.

Exactly.

Well, the implications of the quote above is that the nails crudely replace certain basic brain functions, that would lead to death if the nails are removed now those bits of brain are lopped out. Obviously, the nails are a death sentence, so the "life-sustaining" functions are more of a temporary stay whilst the rest of the nails do their work, rather than a long-term replacement.

Otherwise, agreed. Tl;dr the Emperor is a utilitarian nob.

Yeah? The Emperor does whatever He can to achieve His vision. The ends always justify the means with Him.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
My take of it is that the Emperor could have removed the Butcher's Nails if he wanted to, just as he could have saved the Gladiators on Nuceria... he just chose not to.

"Master of Mankind" makes it clear this is not the case.

‘Do you see?’ the Emperor asked.

Arkhan saw. The tendrils were sunk deep, rooted in the meat of the brain, threaded to the nervous system, and down in roughly serpentine coils around the spinal column. Every movement must have been agony for the primarch, feeding back into the base emotions of anger and spite.

Worse, the brain’s limbic lobe and insular cortex were more than just savaged by the pain engine’s insertion; they had been surgically attacked and removed even before implantation. The device hammered into his skull hadn’t ruined those sections of the brain – it had replaced them. Ugly black cybernetics showed on the internal scans, in place of entire sections of the primarch’s brain tissue.

‘They are the only thing keeping him alive,’ Arkhan said.

Removing the Nail would be fatal as they have taken over the functions of the removed portions of Angon's brain meaning he could not survive without them. I do agree though that the Emperor could have handled Nuceria better and rescued Angron's friends as well as him.

Do not cite the deep magic to me, witch. I was there when it was written. A couple sentences before this section you quoted, Arkhan asks the Emperor if he can remove the nails, and the Emperor answers, literally, "of course". The implication of the passage in general is that the Emperor is able to remove them, but he isn't necessarily able to repair the damage done to Angron and there are risks in attempting to do so, ergo "a compromised primarch is still a primarch" a few paragraphs later is his justification for not trying, as he risks losing Angron entirely if he removes the nails but isn't able to rebuild him successfully, etc.

I take that sentence to be the Emperor being literal. He is speaking to a member of the Mechanicum and so answer the question literally rather than the one Arkhan meant. I took the above to mean that removing the Nails would be fatal, not simply risky.

Remember it's a piece of badly understood archeotech in what is not actually a human brain.

When presented with a wounded horus even a Legion chief apothecary was left at 'feth knows how some of his organs actually work'

 Karhedron wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
My take of it is that the Emperor could have removed the Butcher's Nails if he wanted to, just as he could have saved the Gladiators on Nuceria... he just chose not to.

"Master of Mankind" makes it clear this is not the case.

‘Do you see?’ the Emperor asked.

Arkhan saw. The tendrils were sunk deep, rooted in the meat of the brain, threaded to the nervous system, and down in roughly serpentine coils around the spinal column. Every movement must have been agony for the primarch, feeding back into the base emotions of anger and spite.

Worse, the brain’s limbic lobe and insular cortex were more than just savaged by the pain engine’s insertion; they had been surgically attacked and removed even before implantation. The device hammered into his skull hadn’t ruined those sections of the brain – it had replaced them. Ugly black cybernetics showed on the internal scans, in place of entire sections of the primarch’s brain tissue.

‘They are the only thing keeping him alive,’ Arkhan said.

Removing the Nail would be fatal as they have taken over the functions of the removed portions of Angon's brain meaning he could not survive without them. I do agree though that the Emperor could have handled Nuceria better and rescued Angron's friends as well as him.

Do not cite the deep magic to me, witch. I was there when it was written. A couple sentences before this section you quoted, Arkhan asks the Emperor if he can remove the nails, and the Emperor answers, literally, "of course". The implication of the passage in general is that the Emperor is able to remove them, but he isn't necessarily able to repair the damage done to Angron and there are risks in attempting to do so, ergo "a compromised primarch is still a primarch" a few paragraphs later is his justification for not trying, as he risks losing Angron entirely if he removes the nails but isn't able to rebuild him successfully, etc.

I take that sentence to be the Emperor being literal. He is speaking to a member of the Mechanicum and so answer the question literally rather than the one Arkhan meant. I took the above to mean that removing the Nails would be fatal, not simply risky.

Somehow I don't think when the Emperor said "of course" he meant "yeah, I can totally just go ahead and pull the thing right out, no problem. Dude its hooked up to prolly gonna die tho, lol", which is basically the literal answer to that question.

"Yeah I can remove it, but doing so might make Angron less useful to me" seems a more rational answer.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet, but could this be another example of the HH books accelerating progression? I have heard similar complaints with how quickly Horus was corrupted. Perhaps if the hazards of the nails had presented themselves at a much later date in the crusades it would have been difficult to counteract them. The butcher nails would be entrenched both physically and culturally. Not to mention decommissioning an entire legion for who knows how long.

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but the nails, and lorgars observations of them, are instrumental in the story arc of his trying to save him, realising he can't, bar turning him into a Daemon Prince of khorne. That's a pretty big part of the WE lore.