First off, I'd like to say I am happy for those players who are excited to collect a squat army. Truly. Rock & stone brother. That said...
Can we all just stop for a moment & acknowledge that squats are getting new models ahead of IG regiments that haven't been updated in 22+ years? There was a time when the 40k community was up in arms fighting GW on behalf of the Sisters of Battle for being ignored for decades. Generally speaking everyone agreed they were long overdue for a refresh. The same is not true for the guard. I have been advocating for GW to make new models for the long forgotten regiments for decades & have been met with nothing but hostility & dismissal.
Imagine for a moment if tomorrow the only space marine chapters that got new models were Ultramarines & Space Wolves. GW didn't announce it, they just stopped making models for every other chapter. How would space marine players feel? Imagine thinking every year "This year GW will definitely release new models for Blood Angels/White Scars" etc only to be ignored year after year, decade after decade with zero acknowledgement. Then when you inquire about new models for your chapter you are told:
"Your chapter doesn't need new models. Molds are expensive. Just play Ultramarines."
Can you imagine what that would be like? That is exactly the current state the Imperial Guard are in. If you do not collect Cadians/DKoK/Catachans your army is effectively discontinued. I understand that releasing new models for each regiment would be a big undertaking if you tried to do it all at once. I'm not asking for that. All each regiment needs is an infantry kit, HWT kit, command kit. If one regiment was done a year, we would have been done over a decade ago. Its entirely possible & I just wish there was more people advocating on our behalf. As much as I would like to dive back into the hobby, its a big ask when the army I play is effectively dead & completely ignored by Games Workshop.
Commissar Benny wrote: Can we all just stop for a moment & acknowledge that squats are getting new models ahead of IG regiments that haven't been updated in 22+ years?
Point of order: The non-Catachan/Cadian/Death Korps regiments did get updates in 8th. They got removed with little warning and no indication they were going to be replaced, which is technically an update.
Seriously, though, I agree with you. 8th soured for me when GW nuked all our old regiments without so much as a farewell card, and I've moved over to third-party purchases as a result. I can't say we've gotten nothing with the rumours of the Cadian refresh, but for me that's too little too late (and it took until that refresh for us to have anything that wasn't a one-off character or single small unit, which is...eugh).
Commissar Benny wrote: I have been advocating for GW to make new models for the long forgotten regiments for decades & have been met with nothing but hostility & dismissal.
You should be dismissed for what you're asking for (although I'm sorry people were hostile to you).
It simply doesn't make sense for a game with this many factions and this many SKUs to produce multiple boxes that are effectively reskins of the same unit.
The Marine comparison is rickety (although there are too many marine kits and there should be fewer). A lot of chapters can fill out swathes of their roster with generic power-armoured kits. Imperial Guard cannot do this with infantry. You're asking for three kits per regiment, but without specifying which ones you think are worthy of being included, so I'm going to assume you want at least Cadians, Catachans, Death Korps, Mordians, Tallarns and Valhallans, and possibly Vostroyans, Steel Legion, and more, so we're talking about 18 to 24+ kits, which is equivalent to an entire faction's roster worth. That's an insane ask for the sake of playing dress-up.
Yes. GW shrank the guard range over a long ago. It was kind of a jerk move to not officially announce it. But its be done and dusted for a long time now.
No, it isn't coming back to 6+ supported regiments. Not even piecemeal, once a year.
Imagine thinking every year...
Well, see... there wasn't any reason to think that. At all.
I likely won't ever field my Valhallans again (I haven't so far this century), but its honestly unreasonable to expect multiple model ranges for a low-to-maybe mid selling army (with lots of off-brand alternatives)
A comparison to a model range that is mostly just color swaps isn't a very good one. Especially not a so-so selling model range vs the very best selling model range.
Compared to Tomb Kings or Bretonnia, old guard models (which are still perfectly usable in the army) got off relatively light.
Altruizine wrote: ...The Marine comparison is rickety (although there are too many marine kits and there should be fewer). A lot of chapters can fill out swathes of their roster with generic power-armoured kits. Imperial Guard cannot do this with infantry. You're asking for three kits per regiment, but without specifying which ones you think are worthy of being included, so I'm going to assume you want at least Cadians, Catachans, Death Korps, Mordians, Tallarns and Valhallans, and possibly Vostroyans, Steel Legion, and more, so we're talking about 18 to 24+ kits, which is equivalent to an entire faction's roster worth. That's an insane ask for the sake of playing dress-up.
On the one hand, you're not wrong that it would be a lot of kits. However, as gets floated every time this discussion happens, we need not necessarily have full separate kits for each - we could get away with more generic/modular kits that can combine to make all the regiments (eg. a "greatcoat guard" kit that can make Steel Legion, Death Korps, or Valhallan, or a generic Guardsman kit with a regimental upgrade sprue you can buy separately).
Also, let's not forget that GW/FW seems perfectly happy to make (I would say "waste") SKUs/sprue space on different doors for Space Marine vehicles. It's a bit difficult to look at that and think it's truly unreasonable for them to at least meet Guard players halfway.
Voss wrote: Yes. GW shrank the guard range over a long ago. It was kind of a jerk move to not officially announce it. But its be done and dusted for a long time now.
No, it isn't coming back to 6+ supported regiments. Not even piecemeal, once a year.
Imagine thinking every year...
Well, see... there wasn't any reason to think that. At all.
I likely won't ever field my Valhallans again (I haven't so far this century), but its honestly unreasonable to expect multiple model ranges for a low-to-maybe mid selling army (with lots of off-brand alternatives)
A comparison to a model range that is mostly just color swaps isn't a very good one. Especially not a so-so selling model range vs the very best selling model range.
I think that is the big misconception. That the guard ranges are simply color swaps. Take Steel Legion for example. Some of the best lore in the entire setting. Completely different from DKoK in nearly every way. One has clone troops who's sole purpose is to martyr themselves for the emperor. They employ a defensive doctrine with heavy artillery & excel at melee. Steel Legion on the other hand employ a blitzkrieg mechanized doctrine consisting of real human soldiers with families, jobs, lives under circumstances so dire they have hive gangers in their army & Armageddon is like Mad Max times a million. They have a very real fear of death & yet rise to the occasion in one of if not the biggest battle currently going on in the entire setting.
How can one say that these regiments do not deserve models? They have just as much right as any army does. Its a terrible precedent to set.
Also, let's not forget that GW/FW seems perfectly happy to make (I would say "waste") SKUs/sprue space on different doors for Space Marine vehicles. It's a bit difficult to look at that and think it's truly unreasonable for them to at least meet Guard players halfway.
That's not really a good argument. Forgeworld making doors doesn't create 'sku/sprue space' problems. (Any more than the once-vast range of FW guard tanks did)
Sprue space is problem for stores trying to keep an entire range in stock on shelves, not for direct sales from a boutique operation with its own, separate fabricators that can't be used to make plastic kits.
Making multiple plastic kits for each regiment would become a sku/sprue space problem. Especially with the way that GW forces Indie stores to buy stock (typically in big clumps that they assign, with add-ons they can buy into). An indie store owner would be rightfully mad to have a dozen guard infantry kits that would mostly just sit on shelves after the first month or so.
Altruizine wrote: ...The Marine comparison is rickety (although there are too many marine kits and there should be fewer). A lot of chapters can fill out swathes of their roster with generic power-armoured kits. Imperial Guard cannot do this with infantry. You're asking for three kits per regiment, but without specifying which ones you think are worthy of being included, so I'm going to assume you want at least Cadians, Catachans, Death Korps, Mordians, Tallarns and Valhallans, and possibly Vostroyans, Steel Legion, and more, so we're talking about 18 to 24+ kits, which is equivalent to an entire faction's roster worth. That's an insane ask for the sake of playing dress-up.
On the one hand, you're not wrong that it would be a lot of kits. However, as gets floated every time this discussion happens, we need not necessarily have full separate kits for each - we could get away with more generic/modular kits that can combine to make all the regiments (eg. a "greatcoat guard" kit that can make Steel Legion, Death Korps, or Valhallan, or a generic Guardsman kit with a regimental upgrade sprue you can buy separately).
Also, let's not forget that GW/FW seems perfectly happy to make (I would say "waste") SKUs/sprue space on different doors for Space Marine vehicles. It's a bit difficult to look at that and think it's truly unreasonable for them to at least meet Guard players halfway.
If GW can/would actually do this I'd be in favour of it. But obvs that's not "3 kits per regiment" anymore.
I don't think continuing to make comparisons by way of Space Marines is a persuasive strategy. For one thing, many people want to see contraction of the Marine products/rules ecosystem. For another, the massive sales/popularity of Marines makes them singular (to every other faction's detriment).
The last Raven Guard model I saw released was Shrike and the RG upgrade.
Do other Chapters actually get models?!
Anyways, at the same time you're complaining about this remember that you lot helped bring this about by getting all up in arms anytime there were even insinuations that the basic Infantry Squad was going to change.
Why should they bother putting out new models for all the regiments when you're happy to just play pretend that the models matter in the first place?
The thing is, those Regimental models might not have sold well according to GW in the past. But we aren't in the past.
GW is bigger than ever, 40k especially is bigger than ever. The nostalgia factor is still a huge deal for many people and IMO even just a kit similar to the Krieg one would go a long way. Is it perfect? No of course not but perfection isn't in the repertoire.
If GW can/would actually do this I'd be in favour of it. But obvs that's not "3 kits per regiment" anymore.
I don't think continuing to make comparisons by way of Space Marines is a persuasive strategy. For one thing, many people want to see contraction of the Marine products/rules ecosystem. For another, the massive sales/popularity of Marines makes them singular (to every other faction's detriment).
It's also a garbage comparison to make in the first place as most Chapters (even those with supplement books!) have maybe a single model to their name.
The exceptions are those which had their own army books previously.
I think that is the big misconception. That the guard ranges are simply color swaps. Take Steel Legion for example. Some of the best lore in the entire setting. Completely different from DKoK in nearly every way. One has clone troops who's sole purpose is to martyr themselves for the emperor. They employ a defensive doctrine with heavy artillery & excel at melee. Steel Legion on the other hand employ a blitzkrieg mechanized doctrine consisting of real human soldiers with families, jobs, lives under circumstances so dire they have hive gangers in their army & Armageddon is like Mad Max times a million. They have a very real fear of death & yet rise to the occasion in one of if not the biggest battle currently going on in the entire setting.
How can one say that these regiments do not deserve models? They have just as much right as any army does. Its a terrible precedent to set.
There's nothing special or sacred about IG regiments compared to other factions' subfactions. All subfactions have (or could have) enough individual background and visual identity to warrant their own kits, if we lived in a world where a model company selling an unlimited variety of kits was feasible.
I mean maybe 20 years from now kits will be print-on-demand and dreams like this will work. Right now it still makes no sense.
I would say we don't really need 24 new kits for 3 different unit profiles in game. With the cost of plastic production and the way their ordering works for independent stores, it wouldn't work. Nobody is paying FW resin prices for IG infantry because an army would be $4,000 just for 2k points. Plastic would be the only option, and the numbers don't make sense. There are plenty of, ahem, other options for buying those other IQ regiments. If you REALLY have to have Vostroyans or whatever, hit up ebay or our friends across the pond in the Forge Worlds of Eastern Europe/NorAsia
Voss wrote: Yes. GW shrank the guard range over a long ago. It was kind of a jerk move to not officially announce it. But its be done and dusted for a long time now.
No, it isn't coming back to 6+ supported regiments. Not even piecemeal, once a year.
Imagine thinking every year...
Well, see... there wasn't any reason to think that. At all.
I likely won't ever field my Valhallans again (I haven't so far this century), but its honestly unreasonable to expect multiple model ranges for a low-to-maybe mid selling army (with lots of off-brand alternatives)
A comparison to a model range that is mostly just color swaps isn't a very good one. Especially not a so-so selling model range vs the very best selling model range.
I think that is the big misconception. That the guard ranges are simply color swaps.
Yeah... I'm gonna stop you there. I was calling _marines_ mostly just color swaps.
I don't think models for subfaction rules instead of colors for subfaction rules is any better (in some ways it's much worse), but that isn't at all what I was saying.
Take Steel Legion for example. Some of the best lore in the entire setting. Completely different from DKoK in nearly every way. One has clone troops who's sole purpose is to martyr themselves for the emperor. They employ a defensive doctrine with heavy artillery & excel at melee. Steel Legion on the other hand employ a blitzkrieg mechanized doctrine consisting of real human soldiers with families, jobs, lives under circumstances so dire they have hive gangers in their army & Armageddon is like Mad Max times a million. They have a very real fear of death & yet rise to the occasion in one of if not the biggest battle currently going on in the entire setting.
How can one say that these regiments do not deserve models? They have just as much right as any army does.
Easily. Partly because you're talking about engaging with the fluff to a degree that isn't all that important to most players (at least in my experience). That reads like someone's personal fanfic that doesn't matter to anyone else. 40k just doesn't drill down to a rules level where any of that matters. Your opponent chucks 20-30 dice a couple times and the unit is gone. There is no 'real human soldiers with stories' element to the game.
But most importantly that argument applies equally to _everything_. Every hive fleet, every single one of the 1000 chapters (rather than the big name handful (and the first founding hangers-on), every drukari kabal, every craftworld (even the ones who's names haven't been made up yet), every tiny band of chaos renegades, many thousands of ork klans. Everything.
Its a terrible precedent to set.
The precedent boat sailed long ago. By comparison to other model ranges, GW has treated Guard with kid gloves. Even did several MTOs and last chance sales. And they're getting a big set of additions soon (compared to other 9th edition armies that got a single character or special character, despite the sheer amount of failcast and even metal in their ranges)
I bought several Saturn cars during that company's lifetime. I was sad when GM killed it in 2010. But...it would be really weird to complain about it now. Guard regiments getting axed is an even older, more pointless grudge to carry.
Toofast wrote: Yea I don't personally care too much about what my little plastic army guys went through in their personal life.
So the doctrines of space marines make no difference to you? Their lore? Their primarchs? If the setting does not appeal to you, what do you care about? Why play 40k at all? They're many other games systems with superior gameplay/rules.
I think kill team has a lot of potential to give guard regiments a bit of a boost. When seeing the way the Eldar Corsair KT can be used to build either an elite choice or a troop choice, it means that a single box can be made to do double duty.
The fact that GW is selling the kit for two games, and that the kit builds two units, it should push up sales.
You're also quite likely to get a big MTO drive one metal regiment boxes when the dex drops- just look at the MTO Chaos Sorcerors and Lords that went around when that dex dropped.
Dude... DE, yes we have gotten some units from Finecast to plastic but we have had NO NEW UNITS in 12yrs and 8 units TAKEN AWAY. Cool I got a Lelith re sculpt when no one asked for it bc the old one was amazing.
Amishprn86 wrote: Dude... DE, yes we have gotten some units from Finecast to plastic but we have had NO NEW UNITS in 12yrs and 8 units TAKEN AWAY. Cool I got a Lelith re sculpt when no one asked for it bc the old one was amazing.
Dark Eldar are in a bad place as well & I sympathize with you. I sincerely hope yall get lots of new models in the future. You have my support.
I mean, GW's decisions as to which factions to update or expand haven't exactly lined up with necessity.
Imperial Guard are still stuck with ancient models (and all GW has done is remove some of those kits outright, without replacing/updating them), Eldar still have models that are old enough to drink, and the DE codex has been haemorrhaging units and options since 5th.
However, GW spent most of 8th adding a whole new plastic range to what was already the most expansive and up-to-date range.
Then, in 9th, they added yet more models to that range and also gave a swathe of new releases to, of all things, Necrons. As someone who plays both DE and Necrons, this really irked me. In the transition to 7th, Necrons got to keep all the new, model-less special characters they'd received in 5th, whilst Dark Eldar lost all of theirs. Yet Necrons were the ones lavished with even more new models.
Tbh, I suspect it comes from the fact that none of the relevant designers play factions like IG or DE, so there's no personal incentive for them to make models for those factions, nor any great inspiration for new or improved models.
Thinking about it, if we actually got to a point where every single "old, bad kit" had been redone, I would totally support GW doing something crazy like an entire year of Guard regiments.
Everything from before ~2012ish is an old, bad kit (OBK). Dark Eldar need a lot of refreshes, Eldar Aspects need the same, Tyranids need a handful of redos, even Marines deserve one or two items (like Drop Pods that fit together better). Cadians would also be included in this.
If they could get to a point where all that was completed, and there were no OBKs remaining for sale, it would honestly be cooler to see them update every regiment than start making new units for ever-inflating factions. Will never happen, though.
Yeah, I do really feel the new Squats coming out right now is not good for the health of the community, especially with how backlog they have been, they really should have waited another year.
Hey, guard got a head sprue, and 5 plastic Krieg - you're totally fine!
On the serious side, I think GW wishes they could entirely be rid of Guard. They were the darling of some of the original designers who were (WW2) wargamers, who have since moved off to do WW2 and other games that the guard were derived from.
In addition, pretty much any designs GW does update for guard will instantly be copied by 3rd party manufacturers who can provide a better price point than a GW's overpriced horde would cost.
In many ways, I wish GW would just do the rulebooks for Guard and leave the miniature line to 3rd party manufacturers, who can accommodate the various looks far better than the parent company can.
If GW keeps guard in-house, though, they really need to redo the troop sprues badly. I think it was smart of them to focus on one army type for what they produce, and let other manufacturers take up the other armies.
I mean if GW changed their stupid packaging policies and actually put like 30 guardsmen/officers and heavy weapons in a box for like 60dollars im sure they would sell well. The could have one box set per regiment, including tallarn, cadians, vallhallans, vostroyans, catachans, mordians, steel legion and krieg. That would change their current guard infantry box amount from 7 to 8, with less air in the boxes and slighly bigger ones. I''m sure the better deal would incentivise more new players and sell well with nostalgic veterans.
Hell you need like 80 guard minis now to get started and the price is unreasonalble.
Tragic so many of you bash the legendary classic guard miniatures.
Gitdakka wrote: I mean if GW changed their stupid packaging policies and actually put like 30 guardsmen/officers and heavy weapons in a box for like 60dollars im sure they would sell well. The could have one box set per regiment, including tallarn, cadians, vallhallans, vostroyans, catachans, mordians, steel legion and krieg. That would change their current guard infantry box amount from 7 to 8, with less air in the boxes and slighly bigger ones. I''m sure the better deal would incentivise more new players and sell well with nostalgic veterans.
You could condense those down into a couple of boxes by consolidating stylistically similar regiments. A single 'medium infantry' box could become Tallarn, Cadians, Mordians, Steel Legion, or Elysians with head swaps, a choice of armored or unarmored torso, and accessories.
Realistically, they'd sell it as a Imperial Guard Platoon box for something like $100-150 USD and people would still buy it.
Toofast wrote: Yea I don't personally care too much about what my little plastic army guys went through in their personal life.
So the doctrines of space marines make no difference to you? Their lore? Their primarchs? If the setting does not appeal to you, what do you care about? Why play 40k at all? They're many other games systems with superior gameplay/rules.
The fact that they play different is what I care about. I care about black templars being about herohammer and melee buffs. Idc that they are space nazis. I like eldar because they are mobile glass cannons, their whole drugged orgy creating a chaos god and being a dying race doesn't matter one way or the other to me. I enjoy the fluff of the horus heresy novels and a small amount of 40k stuff, but it doesn't dictate my decisions in the game a whole lot.
There are many better games with superior gameplay/rules. If I could find more than 3-4 people in a 200 mile radius consistently playing any of them, I would happily play those games. Instead my Infinity, Titanicus, WMH, and any other models sit in my battlefoam case in the closet while I play 30k/40k/AoS. Those are the only things with large enough playerbase to get games. I tried to join an Infinity league but it got delayed by a month, and then I was going to be in Colombia for half of the league so I couldn't play when it finally started. I think 10 people initially signed up and it was down to 6 by the time the first dice were rolled. There's 30-40 players for 30k/40k/AoS at a store 10 minutes from my house. Monthly tournaments for all 3 games, leagues and campaigns with prize support from the store, etc. It's better to play a crappy game with tons of opponents than the best game ever on the kitchen table by yourself because nobody else in a 3hr radius plays it...
Toofast wrote: Yea I don't personally care too much about what my little plastic army guys went through in their personal life.
So the doctrines of space marines make no difference to you? Their lore? Their primarchs? If the setting does not appeal to you, what do you care about? Why play 40k at all? They're many other games systems with superior gameplay/rules.
The fact that they play different is what I care about. I care about black templars being about herohammer and melee buffs. Idc that they are space nazis. I like eldar because they are mobile glass cannons, their whole drugged orgy creating a chaos god and being a dying race doesn't matter one way or the other to me. I enjoy the fluff of the horus heresy novels and a small amount of 40k stuff, but it doesn't dictate my decisions in the game a whole lot.
There are many better games with superior gameplay/rules. If I could find more than 3-4 people in a 200 mile radius consistently playing any of them, I would happily play those games. Instead my Infinity, Titanicus, WMH, and any other models sit in my battlefoam case in the closet while I play 30k/40k/AoS. Those are the only things with large enough playerbase to get games. I tried to join an Infinity league but it got delayed by a month, and then I was going to be in Colombia for half of the league so I couldn't play when it finally started. I think 10 people initially signed up and it was down to 6 by the time the first dice were rolled. There's 30-40 players for 30k/40k/AoS at a store 10 minutes from my house. Monthly tournaments for all 3 games, leagues and campaigns with prize support from the store, etc. It's better to play a crappy game with tons of opponents than the best game ever on the kitchen table by yourself because nobody else in a 3hr radius plays it...
There was a time when guard did play differently which is also why I feel its so important each regiment has their own models. Is this no longer the case? Each regiment had their own unique stratagems etc. I've sat out 9th edition for the reasons I outlined above. My army has effectively been discontinued. For me the setting/collecting is what draws me to the hobby & with no new models released for decades its left me uninspired. We might be here for different reasons but I'm glad you have an active 40k group nearby & you are able to play competitively. If you like Black Templars they share a lot of history with the Steel Legion in Hellsreach.
It's possible to have more regiments than we have now, but it would required a fairly significant re-design of some regiments.
Cadian, Steel Legion and potentially tallarn could be combined into one kit if you forgo some design features and are happy in some cases with just head swap. Then the same with other kits etc etc, some would not be happy with this though.
Anyway, GW can evidently make some games/expansion boxes that are FOMO (I know people hate this, but bear with me here) and/or limited time production runs and still make money.
Every 1-2 years, release an army box of a different regiment, with the option of being able to add in further squads that are made to order so you can flesh it out, have a 3-6 month order window, then that is it, and announce it a long time in advance so people know it is coming and can save accordingly. People get the opportunity to have their regiment, they know it is limited time release and that is there opportunity to buy. It could then come back at some point in range rotation, but make it know that is not guaranteed or has a time frame.
However, to make the above work, some regiments probably wouldn't make the cut at all due to not selling enough/demand for that regiment, and also, it would work best with a redesign/combination kits regiments where you can make more than 1 regiment with the same army box.
Anyway, as a Krieg player, other than being a bit miffed they seem to be doing cadians again, over giving us proper command squad, and heavy weapon squads, engineers etc.
I'm also happy Squats players are getting their models and rulesback. I did find it perplexing though since as OP mentioned Guard, Eldar and others have some very old models that are reaching drinking age.
While I love the breadth of 40k, there are certainly times where I think GW prioritizes expanding while forgetting to improve their existing products.
Guard is one of my favorite factions in the lore but I've never considered starting the faction due to the age of the models and only 2-3 regiments still get support.
mrFickle wrote: Do IG need new units? Or do IG players just want them for the fun. I thought the current IG kits were pretty good
Back in 2nd edition, then in 3rd with steel legion added the diversity of aesthetic was huge. You have to understand that some do not like the cadian or catachan look at all, hence why some would spend serious money on a forgeworld regiment instead.
If you are not playing in an environment where GW miniatures are the only accepted game pieces to be used for 40k, your enjoyment of the hobby can reach unknown heights when realising that GW is only a single manufacturer of miniatures one might use. After that it's as easy to use the products of other people or companies like it is for toilet paper, pencils, houseplants, well, any other product.
I prefer to play 40k with friends at our own places, not in a GW shop and I'm not interested in visiting tournaments. Regarding the usage of miniatures from other sources than GW, never ever had anyone of us looked at them and argumented against them, just because they were not sold by GW. It always was about price, design quality and if it would have any negative impact on game mechanics. Most important is the fun at the gaming table.
For infantry miniatures for Imperial Guard I like the ranges of Victorian Miniatures much better than GWs any time: https://victoriaminiatures.com/ . There is a wide variety of regiment designs to choose from and they look awesome. You can also order arms, torsos and other bits separately if you want to.
Since I started printing most miniatures by myself, I prefer these ones: https://www.myminifactory.com/users/RedMakers . The design quality is also pretty good and I love being able to print just what I need for my next game.
GW would have to publish awesome looking new guard models and sell them at a much lower price than the current ones to make me buy their then new product.
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I remember the first models I printed myself instead of buying GW ones, they were Vespids, and I printed these ones: https://www.myminifactory.com/object/3d-print-hl20x-heresylab-greater-god-vespid-5-miodels-193945. My friends told me how glad they are that I decided against the aweful looking ones sold by GW. Another positive side effect was, that I was much more motivated to paint my beautiful self printed ones than I would have ever been to paint GW's ugly ones sold at a laughable price.
So if your playmates are fine with it, look outside of GW's range of models for your regiments. GW is just a completely unimportant company, interchangeable without a second thought like the one which's toilet paper you are buying. It's you who are important and your fun playing a game in your spare time.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Moving into 3rd Ed, rather than two plastic sets, we got the same one done twice. It’s a needless division of resources for little tangible gain.
At the time that didn't feel like a plan as much as a tacit admission that the Catachans were a failed line, and IG required a regiment that was more universally-appealing to carry the faction. The Catachan models were a laughingstock immediately upon their release. I think if they'd been more well-regarded the Cadians might not have come along (or at least not as quickly).
Introducing Regiments Of Guard With Variant Uniforms Was A Mistake.
I mean…what did it really achieve? The differences were essentially purely cosmetic, and lead to multiple boxes for the same unit.
Moving into 3rd Ed, rather than two plastic sets, we got the same one done twice. It’s a needless division of resources for little tangible gain.
They had access to different rules and gear, making it possible to build different armies. It also made it safer to play IG, because if the cadians with helmets were bad, there was a chance that the cadians with caps or with bare heads were not bad or less bad.
Introducing Regiments Of Guard With Variant Uniforms Was A Mistake.
I mean…what did it really achieve? The differences were essentially purely cosmetic, and lead to multiple boxes for the same unit.
Moving into 3rd Ed, rather than two plastic sets, we got the same one done twice. It’s a needless division of resources for little tangible gain.
Regiments of different worlds fits with the lore. Marketing wise its the same as different Marine models in that its trying to represent more of the lore in a way that the game can also generate profit with more potential sales.
GW still does it too, Warcry has generated what, 10 different humanoid chaos worshipping factions. Each one around 10 model kits with very unique designs, yet mechanically in the game they are all very similar with small stat variations and all bolt into the main Slaves to Darkness army.
For the IGGW could certainly get away with a single infantry platoon set per different faction. Throw some basic infantry, heavy weapons teams, command team (with optional parts that lets you make either generals or minor leaders), and a few decals and vehicle insignia parts (like they do for Genestealer Cults). One box that you can repeat buy to build up the core infantry from a different Imperial world.
Perhaps throw a second boxe in if you return Rough Riders to the game!
Thing is do the IG sell well enough to split sales across multiple customers that way. Marines do, IG might not. Also in a creative angle unless GW goes all out, you are basically introducing minor rule variations with model sets. Warcry gets away with this by being a separate game unto itself; with both separate sales and internal budgeting and such. The Marines don't need a separate game, meanwhile the IG might be hard to put into a separate game focused around just infantry cores.
It could be done, it might be done, it has been done in the past. That said I'd also say that I favour seeing GW actually updating existing model lines with better sculpts and adding new factions that are more entirely new. Ergo instead of an IG guardsman in 10 different uniforms; seeing different Imperial and Xenos forces that have much more distinct designs is better.
A good example is Eldar. Whilst GW could make 10 different Guardian forces for different craftworlds and even flesh them out to full armies; I'd rather see them release Exodites who have a totally unique design approach whilst still being part of the same race.
It's the same for the Imperial side as releasing something like the Ad Mech instead of the 10 different IG platoons from different worlds.
Or, as we have now, release the Squats, a new faction with a new and different design approach.
Marines it's same model with different paint job and maybe with upgrade kit. If ig players are happy with variant shoulders/helmets in upgrade sprue that's fair comparison.
tneva82 wrote: Marines it's same model with different paint job and maybe with upgrade kit. If ig players are happy with variant shoulders/helmets in upgrade sprue that's fair comparison.
Having built some Brood Brothers, head swaps and accessories go a long way towards giving the army a different character. It's easy to see how traitor guard or gas-mask guard or baret guard could work with upgrade sprues. I'd want at least another option for a base model though, in addition to the cadians.
Dear OP, let me present you a model called Azrael.
This guy is the chapter master of one of the most popular chapters of the most popular faction. He saw a bit of play at competitive levels in 6/7th edition thanks to its soup abusing, and since the start of the 8th and for the next 5 years has been an auto include in 100% of the dark angels lists.
If there was a ranking for the most played model, he would rank very highly.
Now, since he is a very popular model in the poster boy faction, he will obviously have received some kind of update, right?
No! He is still using his old out of scale metal model, which looked ridiculous next to a tactical marine and is now pitiful next to a primaris.I think that only a couple of eldar models are older than it.
In light of this, I wouldn't keep my hopes up that the niche subfactions of a secondary faction will get redone.
Meh. GW could have done so much more with the Cadian and Catachan plastics but chose not to. I doubt we'll see more regiments, past what we have now and I doubt the majority of the old regiments will make a plastic return.
It's very sad. I'm a big fan of 3rd party models even if it's only for the look with out specific rules.
The new funk-o-pop squat faction looks horrible. I feel really bad for people who played squats a long time ago and got excited only to get these. Very unfortunate.
No reason to dwell on the Guard models though, GW will always do what ever the think is best for business and in this case it's as little as possible.
If you don't play at a GW I very much recommend 3rd party models.
Every 1-2 years, release an army box of a different regiment,.
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAh holy gak, guard players are something else.
you REALLY wanna clog up the already packed release schedule with copypasted guard boxes? We already have fething marines doing that job, we don't need more
If you want to cry about which faction is more deserving, the faction that is getting updated is the one where 'being squatted' was coined to describe a faction no longer getting updates.
Commissar Benny wrote: I have been advocating for GW to make new models for the long forgotten regiments for decades & have been met with nothing but hostility & dismissal.
You should be dismissed for what you're asking for (although I'm sorry people were hostile to you).
It simply doesn't make sense for a game with this many factions and this many SKUs to produce multiple boxes that are effectively reskins of the same unit.
The Marine comparison is rickety (although there are too many marine kits and there should be fewer). A lot of chapters can fill out swathes of their roster with generic power-armoured kits. Imperial Guard cannot do this with infantry. You're asking for three kits per regiment, but without specifying which ones you think are worthy of being included, so I'm going to assume you want at least Cadians, Catachans, Death Korps, Mordians, Tallarns and Valhallans, and possibly Vostroyans, Steel Legion, and more, so we're talking about 18 to 24+ kits, which is equivalent to an entire faction's roster worth. That's an insane ask for the sake of playing dress-up.
actually you should be dismissed. With a game with this many skus what most factions model releases should be are reskins. That way they don't need to attempt to find every shrinking niche s for some of the largest model ranges.
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAh holy gak, guard players are something else.
you REALLY wanna clog up the already packed release schedule with copypasted guard boxes? We already have fething marines doing that job, we don't need more
What are they suppose to be "clogged" with then, because they are going to be clogged with something. Of course someone who plays one faction is going to want their faction to be the ones getting the updates. And in the end what difference is it to them, if they don't play those factions, if DG or Necron get a full revamp or SoB and the space dwarf gets a plastic model line? Why shouldn't they want one or even multiple of those to be replaced with released for their own factions?
Every 1-2 years, release an army box of a different regiment,.
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAh holy gak, guard players are something else.
you REALLY wanna clog up the already packed release schedule with copypasted guard boxes? We already have fething marines doing that job, we don't need more
Easy solution, stop releasing so much gak for marines. It'd be real nice to see more Guard variety, because really they should probably be the most varied of any faction.
Yup. GW could and should do their core units and rules right first before dumping all sorts of IP grabbing 'models and rules' flotsam in the seimming pool. The game is a mess. Voltann is ... unnecessary. Imp Guard should be foundational. But... difficult to patent a starship trooper when it was already stolen. So now we get restartes with weird armor names - Mk 4 and 6 etc being a bit generic for IP legal gurus I would guess, and looking a bit too SW stormtrooper in the helmet area maybe - and factions with weird names and no updates including Guard who are now known as something that GW thinks they own, now, safe from being copied. Yeah, end times bs right here.
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warhead01 wrote: Meh. GW could have done so much more with the Cadian and Catachan plastics but chose not to. I doubt we'll see more regiments, past what we have now and I doubt the majority of the old regiments will make a plastic return.
It's very sad. I'm a big fan of 3rd party models even if it's only for the look with out specific rules.
The new funk-o-pop squat faction looks horrible. I feel really bad for people who played squats a long time ago and got excited only to get these. Very unfortunate.
No reason to dwell on the Guard models though, GW will always do what ever the think is best for business and in this case it's as little as possible.
If you don't play at a GW I very much recommend 3rd party models.
Well GW is in the proces of , so called, doing their prime and core of the core frenchise which is the space marines. Replacing all the speeders, tanks heroes, unit options and adding a few new ones is going to take them a few editions though. For players it would be nice if they just dropped it in one go, but that is not how GW operates with marines. Do people remember that till 2.0, aka almost entire 8th ed, the intercessor squad leaders couldn't take melee weapons. And now with assault intercessors we are probably going to have to wait till 10 ed, to see them put on jet packs. RG have a special character with a jet pack, we know they exist, but no one has access to them. All marine characters in lore can drive outrider bikes, but in the rules they are chaplain only etc.
It could be a decade before we see a gravis armour Librarian or Chaplain.
I've never understood why GW hasn't released one modular kit for each IG regiment. They would make absolute bank off of it. But its actually why I got into 3D printing and now I have my own custom regiment and there are hundreds of full line proxy armies that cover everything from krieg to penal legion troops. Only issue with the army is I cant play it in a GW store but considering i play 99% of my warhammer not in a GW store and i can just bring one of my official armies there it really isn't a big deal
Guard regiments were mostly just a cosmetic choice, though - outside of something like Krieg which had specific units and such. There has to be a limit too somewhere, there are/were at least 9 regiments that had models. Doing them all would be a bit much.
The new funk-o-pop squat faction looks horrible. I feel really bad for people who played squats a long time ago and got excited only to get these. Very unfortunate.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Guard regiments were mostly just a cosmetic choice, though - outside of something like Krieg which had specific units and such. There has to be a limit too somewhere, there are/were at least 9 regiments that had models. Doing them all would be a bit much.
The new funk-o-pop squat faction looks horrible. I feel really bad for people who played squats a long time ago and got excited only to get these. Very unfortunate.
Why do you think that?
The sat around a table and said, squats are space dwarfs right? And developed this new thing which superficially almost but not quite resembles what some one who has only heard of squats might think they are.
Like Star Trek, tribbles are a thing in star trek, people "love" tribbles so Star Trek should have tribbles. It's shallow and superficial at best. They've created a knock off of their old concept and made this new thing which while having at best a little bit of a similarity doesn't or wont have the same rich flavor people remember. Those people who used to play squats back in 1st and early 2nd in this case.
It's cooperate laziness at best, which I am saying as it is not a statement of malice, no malice on the part of GW they are just reaching for the lowest common denominator doing what they think is best for business.
If you like these models then that's fine. I don't like what I have seen. It's perfectly acceptable to disagree. I see these and don't see squats. (Yes I know they have a different name now. so pointing that out would be pointless. Just as pointless as another posted being happy for squat players who haven't really existed in several editions. )
And I don't think it was an easy decision as far as what they should look like because I have read that people disliked the old Squats so GW had to figure that out as well. But I see these and am les than impressed but I do see a 9th edition army. I'm just not a fan.
I hope this was close to an answer.
I think that GW's AoS steam Punk dwrves look more the part than these new models as far as fitting into 40K. Art has this "cheater word", aesthetic. As much as I don't like that word it is applicable.
I had an Art teacher and this was her favorite thing in the world, we did not get along very well.
As others have said, I think GW could have done better with Guard, but thinking there should be 24 or so kits to represent the same 3 units seems a bit crazy. This is not normal with Marines at all (never mind anyone else). You can buy some very expensive shoulder pads if you want - but there are not to my knowledge "White Scars Intercessors", "Raven Guard Aggressors" or "Imperial Fist Bladeguard Veterans" etc.
There are probably ways GW could partially roll this out - Kill Team being the obvious one. Maybe a force in Necromunda etc. But ultimately, its unclear we need a dozen versions of "guy with lasgun".
I think that GW's AoS steam Punk dwrves look more the part than these new models as far as fitting into 40K. Art has this "cheater word", Ascetics. As much as I don't like that word it is applicable.
I had an Art teacher and this was her favorite thing in the world, we did not get along very well.
Tastes in looks put aside for a second, how many actual squat players can there be still play w40k? With SoB the army was rare, part metal, part recast and at least it had rules since when ever the last time squats had their rules. On top of that GW people said that they didn't like how the squats turned out to be, doesn't matter if they had or didn't have fans. They changed the esthetic and that is it. A new army, same way necron or DG got a big model line alongside a full army reset. GW couldn't pull a 1ksons or marine style update with the army, because in GW eyes it had no models, no rules and nothing to copy paste from to build a 9th or 10th rule set.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Guard regiments were mostly just a cosmetic choice, though - outside of something like Krieg which had specific units and such. There has to be a limit too somewhere, there are/were at least 9 regiments that had models. Doing them all would be a bit much.
The new funk-o-pop squat faction looks horrible. I feel really bad for people who played squats a long time ago and got excited only to get these. Very unfortunate.
Why do you think that?
The sat around a table and said, squats are space dwarfs right? And developed this new thing which superficially almost but not quite resembles what some one who has only heard of squats might think they are.
Like Star Trek, tribbles are a thing in star trek, people "love" tribbles so Star Trek should have tribbles. It's shallow and superficial at best. They've created a knock off of their old concept and made this new thing which while having at best a little bit of a similarity doesn't or wont have the same rich flavor people remember. Those people who used to play squats back in 1st and early 2nd in this case.
It's cooperate laziness at best, which I am saying as it is not a statement of malice, no malice on the part of GW they are just reaching for the lowest common denominator doing what they think is best for business.
If you like these models then that's fine. I don't like what I have seen. It's perfectly acceptable to disagree. I see these and don't see squats. (Yes I know they have a different name now. so pointing that out would be pointless. Just as pointless as another posted being happy for squat players who haven't really existed in several editions. )
And I don't think it was an easy decision as far as what they should look like because I have read that people disliked the old Squats so GW had to figure that out as well. But I see these and am les than impressed but I do see a 9th edition army. I'm just not a fan.
I hope this was close to an answer.
I think that GW's AoS steam Punk dwrves look more the part than these new models as far as fitting into 40K. Art has this "cheater word", Ascetics. As much as I don't like that word it is applicable.
I had an Art teacher and this was her favorite thing in the world, we did not get along very well.
I do agree, really. I think the classic sci-fi aesthetic is neat, but the lack of Space Dwarf side of them (or something in its place) visible on the models really makes them feel like they're missing something. The high-tech DAoT stuff is cool, but as Space Dwarfs they don't really work too well, while their art and lore seems like it does a far better job with it.
I think that GW's AoS steam Punk dwrves look more the part than these new models as far as fitting into 40K. Art has this "cheater word", Ascetics. As much as I don't like that word it is applicable.
I had an Art teacher and this was her favorite thing in the world, we did not get along very well.
Tastes in looks put aside for a second, how many actual squat players can there be still play w40k? With SoB the army was rare, part metal, part recast and at least it had rules since when ever the last time squats had their rules. On top of that GW people said that they didn't like how the squats turned out to be, doesn't matter if they had or didn't have fans. They changed the esthetic and that is it. A new army, same way necron or DG got a big model line alongside a full army reset. GW couldn't pull a 1ksons or marine style update with the army, because in GW eyes it had no models, no rules and nothing to copy paste from to build a 9th or 10th rule set.
Original Squats weren't removed for their general aesthetic or the idea of being Space Dwarfs. They were removed because "Silly bikers named Squats" was what they chose as the main theme for Space Dwarfs, which didn't do the idea justice and turned them into a joke.
They already had an updated Squat (2, really) in Necromunda that was a great update without losing the original aesthetic to a significant extent.
Karol wrote: Tastes in looks put aside for a second, how many actual squat players can there be still play w40k?
In real life? Almost none. But this is the internet so...
Ultimately there were no new squat models released in "40k" after 1990 or so. That's a 32 year period. They had an army list in the 2nd edition core rules (1993) but got no real marketing support and never got a codex. They ceased to be legal with the release of 3rd edition in 1998, so 24ish years ago.
The equivalent dates for SoB were not getting any new models from 2003 until 2019, but I think they were always legal to play even if they weren't getting the support of other factions.
I can see reasons for not liking the new squats. But "they don't get the old models" that... GW ceased to sell before most of the current playerbase was born is a bit of a reach.
GW still does it too, Warcry has generated what, 10 different humanoid chaos worshipping factions. Each one around 10 model kits with very unique designs, yet mechanically in the game they are all very similar with small stat variations and all bolt into the main Slaves to Darkness army.
For the IGGW could certainly get away with a single infantry platoon set per different faction. Throw some basic infantry, heavy weapons teams, command team (with optional parts that lets you make either generals or minor leaders), and a few decals and vehicle insignia parts (like they do for Genestealer Cults). One box that you can repeat buy to build up the core infantry from a different Imperial world.
Perhaps throw a second boxe in if you return Rough Riders to the game!
Stop for a moment and reconsider. You're suggesting that the IG players who are complaining about a lack of models would be satisfied with buying and fielding six boxes of essentially identical infantry models.
Even if it ended up being a faction box plus an upgrade box to make the specialized models, you'd end up in a situation where the models across the factions would be structured similarly (so they'd compatible with the upgrade boxes), and that would greatly reduce how much each of the factions could differentiate. "All of the IG models look the same" wouldn't make the people complaining happy.
GW still does it too, Warcry has generated what, 10 different humanoid chaos worshipping factions. Each one around 10 model kits with very unique designs, yet mechanically in the game they are all very similar with small stat variations and all bolt into the main Slaves to Darkness army.
For the IGGW could certainly get away with a single infantry platoon set per different faction. Throw some basic infantry, heavy weapons teams, command team (with optional parts that lets you make either generals or minor leaders), and a few decals and vehicle insignia parts (like they do for Genestealer Cults). One box that you can repeat buy to build up the core infantry from a different Imperial world.
Perhaps throw a second boxe in if you return Rough Riders to the game!
Stop for a moment and reconsider. You're suggesting that the IG players who are complaining about a lack of models would be satisfied with buying and fielding six boxes of essentially identical infantry models.
Even if it ended up being a faction box plus an upgrade box to make the specialized models, you'd end up in a situation where the models across the factions would be structured similarly (so they'd compatible with the upgrade boxes), and that would greatly reduce how much each of the factions could differentiate. "All of the IG models look the same" wouldn't make the people complaining happy.
I'm suggesting that the core infantry of most IG armies are the same - basic infantry, heavy weapon teams, command options, rough riders (freaking heck they should be!).
Therefore if you make a core infantry boxed set which has those models in - with things like optional parts for the command models so that they can make different command squads and such. Then yes you can basically allow the IG to have different core infantry from different worlds/backgrounds; whilst being affordable and not bloating the game with a vast number of different kits.
Around that core you've got your tanks, walkers, ogrins, etc...
Heck right now all IG have is 1 box of infantry along those lines.
1) Cadians
2) Catachan
3) Krieg (going by GW models only, FW adds more options of course for them).
I think that GW's AoS steam Punk dwrves look more the part than these new models as far as fitting into 40K. Art has this "cheater word", Ascetics. As much as I don't like that word it is applicable.
I had an Art teacher and this was her favorite thing in the world, we did not get along very well.
Tastes in looks put aside for a second, how many actual squat players can there be still play w40k? With SoB the army was rare, part metal, part recast and at least it had rules since when ever the last time squats had their rules. On top of that GW people said that they didn't like how the squats turned out to be, doesn't matter if they had or didn't have fans. They changed the esthetic and that is it. A new army, same way necron or DG got a big model line alongside a full army reset. GW couldn't pull a 1ksons or marine style update with the army, because in GW eyes it had no models, no rules and nothing to copy paste from to build a 9th or 10th rule set.
In a lot of ways we're saying the same things.
I was saying the same thing about "squat players".
SoB on the other hand I don't know because I've played against them off and on since 3rd edition when they were and army list in the Chapter Approved. That list was very much built around gimmicks and less so around sisters models. They had cheesy cultists with flamer weapons with nasty tricks. ( And add to that with playing against a dice cheater, not a lot of fun as I remember it. )
My good friend has played them in every edition from 3 to 9th and has cried about the cost until the army was plastic and then cried some more about the cost.
And again I said that point out the name change was also pointless because duh. Or maybe I mean redundant at this point. Obviously they are not squats any more and it's all devolved into a sort of semantics which doesn't really matter in the larger view. What you say is right, GW would have been foolish to drip the nu-squats into the game in small doses. People do in fact want to buy and play their armies.
For the most part we are on the same page.
But the thread is about GW bringing out a whole new miniature range instead of more models for an existing faction, the AM.
Not sure if we're getting off track on that or not. Probably a little.
I think the design team really like the look of Gears of War, as that's what these remind me.
And to reiterate, If some one really likes these models then cool. I hope they have a really good time with them even if other people don't like them for what ever reason.
warhead01 wrote: Meh. GW could have done so much more with the Cadian and Catachan plastics but chose not to. I doubt we'll see more regiments, past what we have now and I doubt the majority of the old regiments will make a plastic return.
It's very sad. I'm a big fan of 3rd party models even if it's only for the look with out specific rules.
The new funk-o-pop squat faction looks horrible. I feel really bad for people who played squats a long time ago and got excited only to get these. Very unfortunate.
No reason to dwell on the Guard models though, GW will always do what ever the think is best for business and in this case it's as little as possible.
If you don't play at a GW I very much recommend 3rd party models.
Bluntly put, for a lot of people that ship has sailed. Any 10 man squad GW releases has to be FANTASTIC in terms of look, sculpts, options, posability, and interchangeability of parts in order to compete with 3rd party at this point. When I started collecting guard in 2015, a box of Cadians was 29$, and the old metal regiments were 35$, now all the metals are gone, and Cadians are 50$, for the exact same models but with a small sprue of extra heads thrown in. The new Krieg are 60$ for 10.
Put blunty, that is absurd for the value of the minis in the game and how many you need to field. Paying retail for that, getting 100 guardsmen is 500-600$ before tax is added on.
Compare that to say Wargames Atlantic, where I can get 24 basically guardsmen in all but name models for 35$, with tons of extra weapons, head options, and in some cases command bits. At this point, unless I am playing in a GW piece only location, there is literally no competition - especially when their website itself has multibuy options for cheaper unit prices. 5 boxes for 145$ nets you 120 guardsmen - so more models, for less than 1/3 the price.
I'm saying this as someone who actually bought the first new Kill Team box because I like both Krieg and Kommandos and want to show that I support the release of these types of models.
For human sized models going "pew pew" with their laser guns, GW needs to create an actual value add besides "this is the official model". Even something like going back to 20 Guardsmen per box and keeping the price the same would do a lot for that, still more expensive than 3rd party, but there is at least something going on there.
The new funk-o-pop squat faction looks horrible. I feel really bad for people who played squats a long time ago and got excited only to get these. Very unfortunate.
Why do you think that?
Cuz they're patently not Squats and look horrid
Tyel wrote:
Karol wrote: Tastes in looks put aside for a second, how many actual squat players can there be still play w40k?
In real life? Almost none. But this is the internet so...
If they'd released them more like the Necromunda Prospectors or Grendl & Ragnir, I would collect an army of them. But the units previewed so far don't follow any Squat esthetic and are an entirely different faction. This is coming from someone whom played Squats BITD.
Commissar Benny wrote: ...when the army I play is effectively dead & completely ignored by Games Workshop.
First off preach it!
Second. Honestly... why even wait for GW anymore? It used to be that alternatives were expensive to get all those flavors we so desire for IG, but Wargames Atlantic is delivering such fantastic IG counts as kits for numerous regiments that I'm doing multiple IG vet guard kill teams just because they're fun and have a lot of character. (Praetorians, Catachans and something more along the lines of somewhere between the Colonial Marines and ODST from Halo.) Even got me buying a few more odds and ends to make some Praetorian Rough Riders! Men of Harlech eat your hearts out.
Be nice if GW got a bit more conversion/third party friendly and just gave us rules, and a "Go forth and conquer." but GW being player friendly is like expecting a blood-soaked pit bull to not go for a second toddler for lunch. The Regiment system could do it... it even has rules for a lot of the units you mentioned, but it'd be nice if they were a bit more robust and competitive.
The new funk-o-pop squat faction looks horrible. I feel really bad for people who played squats a long time ago and got excited only to get these. Very unfortunate.
Why do you think that?
Cuz they're patently not Squats and look horrid
On the plus side Miniwargaming's new space dwarves look awesome. Enough to make me want a kill team's worth at least.
Well in the end it probably it comes down to stuff like. First what sells and what doesn't, plus the risk related to puting out new stuff for it. Marines stuff will always sell at least a bit, because of how many players there are world wide. On the other hand if a new faction is bad or bad recived by people, and by bad I mean they don't buy it, it could be a death kneel to not just the factions, but sometimes the game.
Second thing , but this is no priority list, is what ever makes the investors happy. Which most of the time is what sells. But I have no doubt that, there is no way GW would phase out lets say the only Female Only faction in a setting. And then as last thing there is optic, what people will talk/comment etc.
Everything else, rules too weak, too powerful, busy models, plain models, models not fitting the game esthetics, what ever that is by the way, is either unimportant to the design studio or they don't care what others think say, aside for higher ups and investors. More historic looking squats, more funny units, more grim dark the players base has zero influance on it.
I mean lets step out of W40k for a second. HH at least seems to be big and popular. It could be hype , PR etc but people seem to be buying the boxs and liking the stuff. The models looks good or very good. And then there is the SW helmets. No one at the studio cared to make them fit the prior HHSW line, no one probably thought to ask some people what they think about design etc. And now there is a total s show with them looking the way they do.
warhead01 wrote: squat faction looks horrible. I feel really bad for people who played squats a long time ago and got excited only to get these. Very unfortunate.
I had my wife fully prepared and on board for the giant squat project I was going to be starting when they were released...until I saw the models. They just don't do anything for me. They're like a mashup of Tau and SM with beards. Kharadron Overlords from AoS are 10x more squat like than the Votann. They have airships, helmets, dwarf runes and themes in their model design. I would rather throw some Votann weapons on KO bodies and use them as proxies. I even like the fluff of being super techy and having some advanced AI that the mechanicum would freak out about, but I just can't get past how bland, uninspired, and un squat like the models are.
Karol wrote: Tastes in looks put aside for a second, how many actual squat players can there be still play w40k?
Lots of us.
In my case, I played 40k from RT, stopped to go to university just into 2nd en, and came back for 5th ed. I'm still here. I had Squats before I stopped.
I may get the LoV, but I have a small Ad Mech army I always wanted that I am building up first.
Though I did grab the Necromunda Squats, to go with the 2x FW Squats they released for Necro a couple of years back.
But I am also stuck with a Cadian-only IG army. I'm padding it out with Ratlings from a selection of Halfling and Hobbit models, mostly from Kickstarters. But yeah, having bodies and heads of other regiments from GW would make a huge difference to IG (and prospective-) players.
But also, the new IG codex is due soon. They might put out some new models, and some may be of other regiments.
Asmodios wrote: I've never understood why GW hasn't released one modular kit for each IG regiment. They would make absolute bank off of it.
I'll bet you that they've run the #s & concluded that they wouldn't make enough bank off of it.
Tbf, GW also concluded they wouldn't make bank off of Sisters of Battle
Then everyone shouted at them at the first opportunity GW showed they would listen and turns out they could definitely make bank off of Sisters.
People shouted at them for 5 editions and it didn't seem to work. It was only till they made, what they claimed to not do aka customer study. They decided that maybe investing in to making a plastic SoB line ain't a bad idea.
I have a certenity, that if tomorrow GW made a survey, there would be very little people asking for a outside of game books in them. And back durning the survey that GW made then, a lot of people, even those not playing or planning to play SoB asked for plastic SoB.
I don't know what market analysis GW do - but I feel the pool of "would potentially buy Sisters/GSC etc" has got to be a larger bracket than "would buy a whole army of Mordians/Valhallans/Tallarns/Steel Legion etc".
I guess the optimistic take would be "lets make Guard as popular as Space Marines, and then the number of Mordian Players might well rival the less popular factions". But as it stands it would seem obviously doomed.
GW's market research has hopefully changed since the infamous report in 2014:
"Our market is a niche market made up of people who want to collect our miniatures. They tend to be male, middle-class, discerning teenagers and adults. We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose in a niche."
1. Squats have been waiting much longer than guard for new models and rules. Much much longer.
2. Having models specific to so many regiments was fine in metal models, because the outlay for new models is so low, moulds we’re cheaper and production easier to manage. Having the same number of lines in plastic is not good financial sense. Each kit would only be a portion of the the whole guard market, so the costs would be difficult to overcome and those costs are so much higher.
So they need to go back to having a standard guard kit like in 1st edition and investing in that, then make alternatives as a niche product. Last thing they should do is not make any new factions or bring back old ones until all the guard have costly and unnecessary plastic kits, (3 per regiment probably). It’s a no brainer.
warhead01 wrote: squat faction looks horrible. I feel really bad for people who played squats a long time ago and got excited only to get these. Very unfortunate.
I had my wife fully prepared and on board for the giant squat project I was going to be starting when they were released...until I saw the models. They just don't do anything for me. They're like a mashup of Tau and SM with beards. Kharadron Overlords from AoS are 10x more squat like than the Votann. They have airships, helmets, dwarf runes and themes in their model design. I would rather throw some Votann weapons on KO bodies and use them as proxies. I even like the fluff of being super techy and having some advanced AI that the mechanicum would freak out about, but I just can't get past how bland, uninspired, and un squat like the models are.
It's not even like Kharadrons are just covered in Dwarf stuff to the point of flanderization either. Most Kharadron overlord models seem to only have a few small pieces of it on them -Arkanaut's all have the Bearded helmets, but it's a mix of Dwarfy belt buckles, kneepads or shoulerpads and the occasional small decoration throughout. There's like 2-3 relatively inconsequential bits per model, the Leagues don't even have anything noticeably Dwarfy beyond beards (which are very short and basic) and the out of place Theyn banner - there's 1 part between the Hearthkyn, Ironkin, Beserker, Sagitaur and Pioneer that's Dwarf themed.
Just those few small details make a big difference.
Skinnereal wrote:GW's market research has hopefully changed since the infamous report in 2014:
"Our market is a niche market made up of people who want to collect our miniatures. They tend to be male, middle-class, discerning teenagers and adults. We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose in a niche."
The fact that SoB happened, and so many other updates alongside, suggests so.
The fact that the initial SoB release expected to last at least 4 months (through Christmas) instead sold out in hours suggests they still may not quite have their finger on the pulse of the community, even if things have improved by leaps and bounds since 2014.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The new Squat Terminators/Paragon Squatsuits look dumb, even by GW Standards. It's like they decided to make Tor Gardon a standard unit type.
The fact that the initial SoB release expected to last at least 4 months (through Christmas) instead sold out in hours suggests they still may not quite have their finger on the pulse of the community, even if things have improved by leaps and bounds since 2014.
The thing with a company like GW and selling stuff out is that we never know much they produced in the first place. And I am not saying this is the case with SoB, because the demand clearly was higher with what GW created. It is just that GW often seem to make a line of something, it is gone in 2-3 min or less. But there may as well have been 5000 units of it on sale. Which for a world wide company with huge number of buyers is a bit low. But it does look good for the investors, because you can show that everything you make is selling out. Or at least you hope there is never a time when stuff is not selling out.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The new Squat Terminators/Paragon Squatsuits look dumb, even by GW Standards. It's like they decided to make Tor Gardon a standard unit type.
These dudes?
Theyre awesome looking IMO
I agree. Also: compare these to the exo-armoured egg-squats who they are replacing, and I'm sure you'll agree that the new kit is far superior- I liked old metal squat bikers, basic infantry and their epic range, but those exo-armour eggs were even worse than the original Space Hulk bubble terminators.
I dunno, I think that GW has been semi-open about the fact that they tend to follow their muse in picking projects, rather than focus on what they can sell. I'd guess space marines are the obvious excpetion, as GW consistently makes their nut on the back of Space Marines. But is the popularity of, say, Tau that wildly different from IG? probably not when compared to the all consuming black hole of marines.
And IG are probably in one of the classic creative black holes. I think the best thing for IG in the long run is to decouple the rules and models for regiments, and release a new, fully grimdark plastic set (think closer to Vostroyans than anythign else). Maybe krieg will be the new standard bearer, but I'm guessing we'll be back to Cadians being the template, and other models being flavor.
anyway, I think GW is also aware of the third party environment. Why try to capture that, when there are dozens of options?
I think the main problem with IG, from GW perspective, is that there are too many way to get your IG from other companies, often looking very good. GW would have to make IG in to something totaly new, like an army of tech barbarian knights or something to even consider large changes and multiple sub factions for IG. And even then they can never be sure if people will just not go and buy 2ed hand stuff or their napoleonic or empire space infantry.
Yes. So many 3rd-party alternatives and add-ons exist, that GW is not likely to gain by diversifying.
Death Guard are the FW staple, so they did the DG Kill Team, but that's about it.
As much as I'd like to see Mordian, refreshed Catachan, etc, other places do them well enough already.
Andykp wrote: 2. Having models specific to so many regiments was fine in metal models, because the outlay for new models is so low, moulds we’re cheaper and production easier to manage. Having the same number of lines in plastic is not good financial sense. Each kit would only be a portion of the the whole guard market, so the costs would be difficult to overcome and those costs are so much higher.
Warcry warbands say hi, let alone Necromunda gangs or BB teams - heck, Underworld warbands, too, given IG kits wouldn't rely on additional card components and would remain in the market for longer.
Andykp wrote: So they need to go back to having a standard guard kit like in 1st edition and investing in that, then make alternatives as a niche product. Last thing they should do is not make any new factions or bring back old ones until all the guard have costly and unnecessary plastic kits, (3 per regiment probably). It’s a no brainer.
It's a "no brainer" in one sense, in that it doesn't speak well of the cranial capacity of those suggesting it.
Those are skirmish games. Where you make 10 models and forget about them.
For a faction in w40k, the way GW makes them you need at least 6-7 kits and 2-3 HQs. Making even two or three of those, without being sure they will sell , could be a bad investment for GW.
Karol wrote: Those are skirmish games. Where you make 10 models and forget about them.
For a faction in w40k, the way GW makes them you need at least 6-7 kits and 2-3 HQs. Making even two or three of those, without being sure they will sell , could be a bad investment for GW.
Not to get too far off topic but this is something I have thought about for a while. I don't know when but I would expect Gw to dump f40K for more skirmish games using the same models. the advantage of doing that, seems to me, would be selling more models from every faction to a larger number of people. I don't really know if that would help up the sales numbers or not. This would let them remove things from their inventory and tighten up control of what the sell and possible "damage" 3rd party competitors for a little while. Yes people would be upset about Gw dropping big game 40K but it could also let GW actually develop more games with better rules which might bring in more new players. But who can say.
Personally I'd rather have several small warbands to choose from over the hundreds of Orks, IG and space Marines I have already collected and never use. I'd be happy to have one full collection of each faction if that saw maybe 10 to 20 models tops. ( Maybe s many as 30 models.)
And why stop there, GW could rerelease every edition of 40K as a print on demand and just not support those. It seems like printing money to me.
Back on topic though, A squad box, maybe 2 squad boxes with a small verity of extra bits to differentiate between two regiments and a heavy weapons team refit as well to match and I think a new regiment or 2 or 4 is completely possible and easily done. And done with less extra bits than are in a Wargames Atlantic box. Even expanding that to letting people order the extra conversion bits separately would be a genius move. The large thing I would want GW to do is make sure to run out of stock every few years just to not end up with a warehouse full of unsold product.
I think that depends what or rather who GW sees as their majority player. We have no idea what the top of GW think . Who knows maybe they are fully expecting the table top gaming hobby to be mostly gone in 10-15 years, so they try to maximize the gains they have now.
The game ends up very different when your avarge player is a 15-16 year boy or a 35year old men. You don't want to make the game too expensive , when you target teens. It can't cost more then an xbox or playstation. Center pice models can't be obligatory. Rules can be a big book, but they have to be simple and not very confusing. With 35y dudes the cost is at the sky limit, you want ease of play because dad doesn't have time to test and learn the game by playing each day of the week, because his hobby time is twice a month.
GW is of course a big company, so they try to hit all demographic. Sometimes I am not even sure, if they target certain demographic expecting them to actualy buy and play the games. But in the end someone has to be the core audience, just like marines are their flagship product.
The rest is company stuff. The inertia needed to change something is slow. In general the studio will want to work less, and do more products. So they copy past stuff. Updates aren't real update, not because GW hates a faction, but because they want to get it done fast and maybe move on to a project they are realy intersted in.
Karol wrote: I think that depends what or rather who GW sees as their majority player. We have no idea what the top of GW think . Who knows maybe they are fully expecting the table top gaming hobby to be mostly gone in 10-15 years, so they try to maximize the gains they have now.
The game ends up very different when your avarge player is a 15-16 year boy or a 35year old men. You don't want to make the game too expensive , when you target teens. It can't cost more then an xbox or playstation. Center pice models can't be obligatory. Rules can be a big book, but they have to be simple and not very confusing. With 35y dudes the cost is at the sky limit, you want ease of play because dad doesn't have time to test and learn the game by playing each day of the week, because his hobby time is twice a month.
GW is of course a big company, so they try to hit all demographic. Sometimes I am not even sure, if they target certain demographic expecting them to actualy buy and play the games. But in the end someone has to be the core audience, just like marines are their flagship product.
The rest is company stuff. The inertia needed to change something is slow. In general the studio will want to work less, and do more products. So they copy past stuff. Updates aren't real update, not because GW hates a faction, but because they want to get it done fast and maybe move on to a project they are realy intersted in.
You do realize that not just boys and men play 40k, right? Women girls, and many others play as well. But usually don't go to stores
or events to play. Also, 2,000 point games aren't the only way to play.
Karol wrote: Those are skirmish games. Where you make 10 models and forget about them.
For a faction in w40k, the way GW makes them you need at least 6-7 kits and 2-3 HQs. Making even two or three of those, without being sure they will sell , could be a bad investment for GW.
Not to get too far off topic but this is something I have thought about for a while. I don't know when but I would expect Gw to dump f40K for more skirmish games using the same models. the advantage of doing that, seems to me, would be selling more models from every faction to a larger number of people. I don't really know if that would help up the sales numbers or not. This would let them remove things from their inventory and tighten up control of what the sell and possible "damage" 3rd party competitors for a little while. Yes people would be upset about Gw dropping big game 40K but it could also let GW actually develop more games with better rules which might bring in more new players. But who can say.
Personally I'd rather have several small warbands to choose from over the hundreds of Orks, IG and space Marines I have already collected and never use. I'd be happy to have one full collection of each faction if that saw maybe 10 to 20 models tops. ( Maybe s many as 30 models.)
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The new Squat Terminators/Paragon Squatsuits look dumb, even by GW Standards. It's like they decided to make Tor Gardon a standard unit type.
These dudes?
Theyre awesome looking IMO
"How's the armour feel, Stan?"
"Er... does it come in a smaller size? I can barely see over the collar."
Karol wrote: Those are skirmish games. Where you make 10 models and forget about them.
For a faction in w40k, the way GW makes them you need at least 6-7 kits and 2-3 HQs. Making even two or three of those, without being sure they will sell , could be a bad investment for GW.
Nah.
Look at the Corsair box- it builds an elite unit and a troop unit. Look at the sisters box- it builds troops, FA, or Heavy.
One KT sized box can include enough bits to build a troop, an elite/ FA/ Heavy and an HQ. If you want to model all three builds, you buy 3 copies of the box.
Releasing them as KT's increases their versatility and increases sales.
Karol wrote: Those are skirmish games. Where you make 10 models and forget about them.
For a faction in w40k, the way GW makes them you need at least 6-7 kits and 2-3 HQs. Making even two or three of those, without being sure they will sell , could be a bad investment for GW.
Not to get too far off topic but this is something I have thought about for a while. I don't know when but I would expect Gw to dump f40K for more skirmish games using the same models. the advantage of doing that, seems to me, would be selling more models from every faction to a larger number of people. I don't really know if that would help up the sales numbers or not. This would let them remove things from their inventory and tighten up control of what the sell and possible "damage" 3rd party competitors for a little while. Yes people would be upset about Gw dropping big game 40K but it could also let GW actually develop more games with better rules which might bring in more new players. But who can say.
Personally I'd rather have several small warbands to choose from over the hundreds of Orks, IG and space Marines I have already collected and never use. I'd be happy to have one full collection of each faction if that saw maybe 10 to 20 models tops. ( Maybe s many as 30 models.)
That's Kill Team's niche.
Absolutely right! And now with "New expansions!" Because MONEY!!!
GW can generally not care as much because they are the market juggernaut for wargames. Plus they've got good distribution through their own network both online and on the highstreets. So they doubly don't have to care.
They still have to care, but likely because of different elements; eg production, warhousing and such; rather than shelf space "as much" as other firms
Look at the Corsair box- it builds an elite unit and a troop unit. Look at the sisters box- it builds troops, FA, or Heavy.
One KT sized box can include enough bits to build a troop, an elite/ FA/ Heavy and an HQ. If you want to model all three builds, you buy 3 copies of the box.
Releasing them as KT's increases their versatility and increases sales.
Yes that is why I am saying 6-7 kits. Look at the smallest faction, number of models wise, the harlequin. Two vehicles, a unit and 3 characters and the jetbikes. Smallest faction in the game. GK technicaly have around that too, but their GK termintor box makes ton of characters , support units.
The one off boxs for kill team don't have much of an impact on how a codex sells. A box of 10 karskin will not be the main factor in GW selling a faction or a codex, same way kommandos or eldar corsair dudes didn't become The Sellers of their books. Now is it impossible for a kill team box to be super crucial for a faction, of course not. Lets say GW makes mimes for harlequins and they out perform regular troups, people will buy them.
Overread wrote: GW can generally not care as much because they are the market juggernaut for wargames. Plus they've got good distribution through their own network both online and on the highstreets. So they doubly don't have to care.
They still have to care, but likely because of different elements; eg production, warhousing and such; rather than shelf space "as much" as other firms
Yeah, and it's not like GW has cared about shelf space in a long time. Go into a GW store and the inventory is pathetic, you have a handful of the most popular kits carefully spaced along the wall to take up as much space as possible and give the illusion of a lot of stock. Want anything else? Order it through the same online store you can buy through at home, as if getting to use the store's PC to place your online order is a selling point in 2022. Adding some more online-only SKUs when most of your product lines are already not sold in stores doesn't make any meaningful difference.
Look at the Corsair box- it builds an elite unit and a troop unit. Look at the sisters box- it builds troops, FA, or Heavy.
One KT sized box can include enough bits to build a troop, an elite/ FA/ Heavy and an HQ. If you want to model all three builds, you buy 3 copies of the box.
Releasing them as KT's increases their versatility and increases sales.
Yes that is why I am saying 6-7 kits. Look at the smallest faction, number of models wise, the harlequin. Two vehicles, a unit and 3 characters and the jetbikes. Smallest faction in the game. GK technicaly have around that too, but their GK termintor box makes ton of characters , support units.
Smallest faction kit wise are Imperial/Chaos Knights.
3 kits each.
Thanks to everyone who joined the discussion & had kind words/advice. Thought I would share a few pictures of my army before departing again. Hopefully someday GW will feel giving old regiments models/rules will be a worthwhile business venture.
Being a mainly IG player, I wouldn't bash GW neglecting old regiments too much,
reason #1 being that many 3rd party covers them very well,
#2: it's hard for GW to protect their sculpt IP for IG as they can be very similar to our real world past and current military
#3: for a very long time, FW made IG and marine products and neglected everyone else, to say we're neglected is not appreciating what we already have/had
Commissar Benny wrote: Thanks to everyone who joined the discussion & had kind words/advice. Thought I would share a few pictures of my army before departing again. Hopefully someday GW will feel giving old regiments models/rules will be a worthwhile business venture.
Spoiler:
Oh that looks very nice.
Something I will say - I always felt like Cadians were the least interesting guard regiment, in terms of aesthetic. I know they're a prominent one but something like Vostroyan just seems like a much more interesting design. A longcoat/greatcoat style (like your army) would probably be my second choice.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The new Squat Terminators/Paragon Squatsuits look dumb, even by GW Standards. It's like they decided to make Tor Gardon a standard unit type.
These dudes?
Theyre awesome looking IMO
"How's the armour feel, Stan?"
"Er... does it come in a smaller size? I can barely see over the collar."
Illustrators/designers for games have this weird idea that the shoulders are the most important part of the body to keep protected. These go beyond that to the point where the pauldrons are so huge and high up they're barely even protecting the shoulders anymore.
It's odd. I really like the design of the metal Cadians, the ones that were around right before the current plastics. Far more character in them, that's what's missing. You look at the Bolt Action guys, which are also supposed to be in a quasi Heroic scale. So much character in a sprue with so many option. Hell, look at what WGA is doing making essentially alternate IG. We got Praetorians and Mordians in plastic.
0beron wrote: This is what Squats in power armor are supposed look like:
These look like the contents of Mr. Potato Head's power armour wardrobe.
That said, while these obviously suffer from being ancient models, I still find them far more visually interesting than the bloke above (who just looks like a generic dude wearing generic power armour, albeit three sizes too big for him).
0beron wrote: This is what Squats in power armor are supposed look like:
These look like the contents of Mr. Potato Head's power armour wardrobe.
That said, while these obviously suffer from being ancient models, I still find them far more visually interesting than the bloke above (who just looks like a generic dude wearing generic power armour, albeit three sizes too big for him).
Being ancient models is not their problem (other than being made of lead....) Their problem is being a crap design. If you made those today with modern plastic tech? You'd still have a crap design. It just be unable to also double as a fishing line sinker.
But yes, the new one looks a bit generic, too tall(?), and the armor too large.
mrFickle wrote: Has anyone mentioned the fact that OP thinks of their life as a timeline. You rarely see the multiverse theory so casually acknowledged
It's been an in joke with my friends for a few years. Something about the Hadron collider being the culprit for the general hot mess that's been ongoing for I'm not sure how many years now.
I mean, who can say for sure? Which if you follow the Dao* isn't really a huge issue...
mrFickle wrote: Has anyone mentioned the fact that OP thinks of their life as a timeline. You rarely see the multiverse theory so casually acknowledged
It's been an in joke with my friends for a few years. Something about the Hadron collider being the culprit for the general hot mess that's been ongoing for I'm not sure how many years now.
I mean, who can say for sure? Which if you follow the Dao* isn't really a huge issue...
*Daoism
It's been a pretty popular internet meme since the timeline episode of Community in 2011.
Yea, adding yet another faction is pretty brain dead imho. I do not think it will even sell. Especially when base line armies have gaping holes in unit availability.
Karol wrote: Those are skirmish games. Where you make 10 models and forget about them.
For a faction in w40k, the way GW makes them you need at least 6-7 kits and 2-3 HQs. Making even two or three of those, without being sure they will sell , could be a bad investment for GW.
Nah.
Look at the Corsair box- it builds an elite unit and a troop unit.
You're being really generous here. There's no discernable differences between how the units function and their options. It's basically the same as saying the Kalabite box builds Trueborn as well.
Karol wrote: Those are skirmish games. Where you make 10 models and forget about them.
For a faction in w40k, the way GW makes them you need at least 6-7 kits and 2-3 HQs. Making even two or three of those, without being sure they will sell , could be a bad investment for GW.
Nah.
Look at the Corsair box- it builds an elite unit and a troop unit.
You're being really generous here. There's no discernable differences between how the units function and their options. It's basically the same as saying the Kalabite box builds Trueborn as well.
You are absolutely wrong on the Corsair front. The biggest difference (and it's a huge one) is that vodscarred elites can take a psyker- and one that's immune to perils at that. Two extra models can upgrade weapons, and with other upgrades available to the unit, there's a real difference between a voidscarred unit kitted for range than a unit kitted for combat.
By contrast, Voidreavers are far more similar to a basic troop unit- they get a leader, a special and a heavy.
Your Trueborn strawman IS a legit example of two units not being as different as they should be... But it's worth noting that Trueborn aren't even a datacard- they're a unit upgrade, making the comparison even less appropriate than the lack of differentiated upgrades.
Dude, Trueborn are not a datacard and their weapon options are identical to the weapon options of Kabalites.
The Corsairs have two datacards and a kit that is designed as a dedicated dual build that includes three optional characters and 4 weapon upgrades. Add in the Falchou, for a 9th upgrade.
So at best, a Trueborn unit has it's commander, two troops with weapon upgrades AND SEVEN REGULAR MODELS.
Whereas in a unit of maxed out Voidscarred, only one of the ten models as a standard trooper with a standard load out. And the unit gets to act in Psychic phase.
There's a group of posters on this website who act like admitting they're wrong when they clearly are is a sign of weakness rather than maturity.
Trueborn are not a real unit anymore, they are an upgrade BS and LD to a Kabal unit.
Imagine if Vanguard Vets were removed and instead became a +1LD with either a +1BS or +1WS Assault Marine unit with no longer changes. Marines would be throwing a fit but when its DE no one cares and acts like we got a new unit.
Karol wrote: That is because venguard vetarans are marines top unit. A DE player can just load up on wrecks, witches or just not take trueborn.
If a rules was passed that made both venoms and the barges not worth taking DE players would not be happy either.
It was a top DE unit for multiple editions, also Venoms are not worth it..... so whats your point again?
But they aren't a top unit now. It does not matter to the players now or to GW, how a unit was 5 editions ago. Especialy for people who did not play it back then.
If things have to be compared, then they have to be at least similar. A unit that is not used, getting a nerf is not the same as one of the units that keeps multiple factions off the sub 35% win rates.
Karol wrote: That is because venguard vetarans are marines top unit. A DE player can just load up on wrecks, witches or just not take trueborn.
If a rules was passed that made both venoms and the barges not worth taking DE players would not be happy either.
It was a top DE unit for multiple editions, also Venoms are not worth it..... so whats your point again?
But they aren't a top unit now. It does not matter to the players now or to GW, how a unit was 5 editions ago. Especialy for people who did not play it back then.
If things have to be compared, then they have to be at least similar. A unit that is not used, getting a nerf is not the same as one of the units that keeps multiple factions off the sub 35% win rates.
Ok then the same exact argument is applicable to bloodbrides or haemoxytes.
that argument also has nothing to do with how playable the unit is.
Karol wrote: Those are skirmish games. Where you make 10 models and forget about them.
For once, Karol, you're not wrong - but you've also missed the point I was making.
Andykp was arguing that making the existing guard regiments from the 'dex (plus Krieg) in plastic isn't good financial sense, because you're splitting the sales you could get for one set of boxes between seven or eight themed boxes. By set, I'm thinking we need three boxes to do the core of a regiment justice - you could add further boxes if you wanted specialist units for each regiment, but at the minimum I think you need a Command Squad box, an Infantry Squad box, and a Heavy Weapon Squad (or team) box.
I can understand concerns about th enumber of SKUs from a retailer perspective, but the way they're releasing content at present would allow for releasing the existing regiments, plus Krieg, over a period of years, without a retailer drowning in IG kits.
How? Well, you take advantage of the seasons/warzones that GW is utilising at the moment, and tie a regiment release into one season per year.
Here's how I'd look to do things, were I in charge...
Firstly, some kits are fine as is (possibly ignoring the prices, but that's a whole other pot of molluscs). I'd put the following infantry kits in that group:
- Cadian Command Squad
- Catachan Command Squad
- Cadian Heavy Weapon Squad*
- Catachan Heavy Weapon Squad*
- Krieg Veteran Guardsman**
- Tempestus Scions***
* - I wouldn't argue with a recut of the Heavy Weapon sprue itself, to allow for a wheeled carriage option or another heavy weapon, but I don't think it is needed.
** - The only problem I have with the Krieg kit as an Infantry squad kit is that three of the special weapons are missing as far as I can see (grenade launcher, meltagun, plasmagun). Well, that and it includes a bunch of parts for KT that don't serve much use in 40k, while increasing the price of the kit.
*** - Or, as they should be known by players of sufficient culture, Stormtroopers.
Before we look into how the season model could help the Guard, we have the Codex release to deal with first.
If I were in charge of the release, I'd have the following as part of the release:
- Resculpted Cadian infantry Squad (inc. all special weapon options and a "Sergeant lasgun" with chevrons on the arm)
- Resculpted Catachan infantry Squad (inc. all special weapon options and a "Sergeant lasgun" with chevrons on the arm)
- Krieg Command Squad
- Krieg Heavy Weapon Squad (using the existing HW frame, but with a Krieg crew sprue)
Add in other items like Kasrkin, Krieg Engineers, etc, as you want to, but the above four items would be at the core of the release.
At this point, three of the Guard regiments are fully-supported with decent plastic kits. Keep all three in store for 3-6 months as your initial release, then move two of them to Direct Only at the end of that window.
At this stage, the following Regiments are still in need of support: Valhallan, Vostroyan, Armageddon Steel Legion, Tallarn, Mordian and Praetorian.
If we're looking at a six-month season in 40k (which I think we are at the moment, but correct me if I'm wrong), then every other season you have a different one of these Regiments be the IG focal point for that Warzone. Perhaps we have Warzone: Armageddon, where you revisit the Steel Legion, for example.
At the point you're providing the focus on that Regiment, you release a Command/Infantry/HW set of squad boxes for that regiment, and cycle the preceding set of Regiment boxes to Direct Only. At no point do you mothball them, but certainly shift to "white box" packaging once they go to DO.
For the Mordians and Praetorians, I'd produce a Mordian Iron Guard kit, and then do a box (or DO release) similar to some of the HH weapon boxes where you get 40 or 50 Praetorian-style helmets, maybe a bugle arm, a standard, etc, to use on Mordian bodies.
+ + +
The thing with having multiple different styles of IG troops available is that the look of one regiment may appeal to someone when other styles don't. Someone who likes the look of Valhallans or Steel Legion isn't going to collect the army when the only infantry around are the Catachan Jungle Fighters, for example.
While each Regiment may not have as large a sales ceiling as if you only had the one set of kits, each one is likely to pull in people that other styles wouldn't, increasing the overall sales of the IG faction - seven or eight individually smaller slices can very easily make for a larger cake overall.
And before anyone harps on about sprue cost, I direct you back to Necromunda (especially), or Blood Bowl, or WarCry, etc. In most cases, a player will buy one, maybe two of any individual box for those games, and they have a smaller player pool than 40k does. Heck, once their vehicles are released we're at a point where the core six Necromunda gangs will have (using House Orlock as a reference) three plastic boxes and a plastic upgrade set in their range.
If GW can finance that many plastic releases for a single Necromunda gang, they can afford to do the 20 kits total over six years to support nine plastic Regiments, as well as the Scions.
Heck, if they did the Mordian release early to see what people thought of the Praetorian option, you could potentially see head-swap sets for the other regiments to make them even more flexible...
warhead01 wrote: I don't know when but I would expect Gw to dump f40K for more skirmish games using the same models. the advantage of doing that, seems to me, would be selling more models from every faction to a larger number of people.
Most people buy 40k models to play 40k. if you just axe 40k, you're probably axing most of your customer base by default, and that's not accounting for people that would have been interested in those skirmish games but are now boycotting GW for dropping 40k.
It's literally their core product, why would they dump that.
Because the zeitgeist of dakkanouts is to pretend that GW is dumb even doe direct observation and history suggest otherwise?
Sure they are not precisely costumer friendly. They are a leading monopoly in their own niche afterall with 30+ years of inertia, but they are neither stupid.
Karol wrote: Those are skirmish games. Where you make 10 models and forget about them.
For a faction in w40k, the way GW makes them you need at least 6-7 kits and 2-3 HQs. Making even two or three of those, without being sure they will sell , could be a bad investment for GW.
Nah.
Look at the Corsair box- it builds an elite unit and a troop unit.
You're being really generous here. There's no discernable differences between how the units function and their options. It's basically the same as saying the Kalabite box builds Trueborn as well.
You are absolutely wrong on the Corsair front. The biggest difference (and it's a huge one) is that vodscarred elites can take a psyker- and one that's immune to perils at that. Two extra models can upgrade weapons, and with other upgrades available to the unit, there's a real difference between a voidscarred unit kitted for range than a unit kitted for combat.
By contrast, Voidreavers are far more similar to a basic troop unit- they get a leader, a special and a heavy.
Your Trueborn strawman IS a legit example of two units not being as different as they should be... But it's worth noting that Trueborn aren't even a datacard- they're a unit upgrade, making the comparison even less appropriate than the lack of differentiated upgrades.
Okay, quick question: is this a Voidreaver or Voidscarred?
I'll be honest with you: I'm not far enough along on the building of my many-flavours-of-eldar collection to recognize all the weapons on sight, but hazarding I guess, I'm sure you chose one of the many loadouts that could be used in either unit. And it's true- there are a lot of options in the box that can be included in either unit- so many that it's possible to build a unit as Voidreavers and still be able to field that unit AS Voidscarred (no one ever would, but it's possible).
But none of that changes any of my points about problems with the comparison between Kabalites/ Trueborn and Voidreavers/ Void scarred.
More importantly, it doesn't change the larger point about how boxes like the Corsairs, or the Novitiates, or the Sisters or even the Legionnaires could be a solution to the guard regiment problem.
To review, the idea is you make a kit that includes enough parts to build 10 complete models for a given regiment BUT you include enough options to build the command unit, the veteran or specialist units or the base troop unit.
What you're looking at is a situation where you can build a full platoon of any given regiment buy purchasing multiple copies of the single box that is available for any given regiment and choosing different build options for each of the boxes you purchase.
And as Dystartes pointed out, you don't have to do it with Cadians, Catachans or Krieg (though you would have to release command options for the Krieg). But yeah, I'd buy three or four copies of the same Tallarn box and build it as a platoon.
And why not? I will absolutely buy two Corsair boxes and build one as Voidscarred and one as Voidreavers. I've got three boxes of Sisters, and I will be building at least one unit as Dominions, one as Celestians and then I'll build a 10 strong unit of troops and build the remainder as basic bolter troops that could be used to bulk up any given unit for any given game- basically side-board models.
The point is that while you need to be able to represent many units for every regiment, you only need a single well-designed box for each regiment to do that. People just buy multiple copies and build what they need.
I'll be honest with you: I'm not far enough along on the building of my many-flavours-of-eldar collection to recognize all the weapons on sight, but hazarding I guess, I'm sure you chose one of the many loadouts that could be used in either unit. And it's true- there are a lot of options in the box that can be included in either unit- so many that it's possible to build a unit as Voidreavers and still be able to field that unit AS Voidscarred (no one ever would, but it's possible).
But none of that changes any of my points about problems with the comparison between Kabalites/ Trueborn and Voidreavers/ Void scarred.
More importantly, it doesn't change the larger point about how boxes like the Corsairs, or the Novitiates, or the Sisters or even the Legionnaires could be a solution to the guard regiment problem.
To review, the idea is you make a kit that includes enough parts to build 10 complete models for a given regiment BUT you include enough options to build the command unit, the veteran or specialist units or the base troop unit.
What you're looking at is a situation where you can build a full platoon of any given regiment buy purchasing multiple copies of the single box that is available for any given regiment and choosing different build options for each of the boxes you purchase.
And as Dystartes pointed out, you don't have to do it with Cadians, Catachans or Krieg (though you would have to release command options for the Krieg). But yeah, I'd buy three or four copies of the same Tallarn box and build it as a platoon.
And why not? I will absolutely buy two Corsair boxes and build one as Voidscarred and one as Voidreavers. I've got three boxes of Sisters, and I will be building at least one unit as Dominions, one as Celestians and then I'll build a 10 strong unit of troops and build the remainder as basic bolter troops that could be used to bulk up any given unit for any given game- basically side-board models.
The point is that while you need to be able to represent many units for every regiment, you only need a single well-designed box for each regiment to do that. People just buy multiple copies and build what they need.
I'm not saying GW will do this, but they could.
Right now you're pointing out a problem that I've pointed out with the various Marine codices not having access to all units for the sake of differentiation.
I give you a Marine with +1LD, +1A, and everyone has a Storm Bolter, am I talking about Sternguard or Dark Angel Vets?
Why do they need to be different entries to begin with and why not just give Dark Angels Sterngaurd access? It's dumb. The units are the same because they do the same thing.
It's the same with Voidreavers vs Voidscarred. The profiles don't differentiate enough to the point that we can say the kit builds two different units. If GW sold the kit for Tactical Marines as building Sternguard I'd be making the same point. However that hasn't happened, so we should obviously know better.
TL;DR Corsairs were treated as an afterthought and saying the kit builds two different units is laughable. By the way that model is a Voidchooseone with a Wraithcannon. There's no model difference!
Karol wrote: That is because venguard vetarans are marines top unit. A DE player can just load up on wrecks, witches or just not take trueborn.
If a rules was passed that made both venoms and the barges not worth taking DE players would not be happy either.
It was a top DE unit for multiple editions, also Venoms are not worth it..... so whats your point again?
But they aren't a top unit now. It does not matter to the players now or to GW, how a unit was 5 editions ago. Especialy for people who did not play it back then.
If things have to be compared, then they have to be at least similar. A unit that is not used, getting a nerf is not the same as one of the units that keeps multiple factions off the sub 35% win rates.
1) You are the one that brought up playability not me, and if they were still a unit yes everyone would still play them.
2) We are not talking about Win rates ffs, but about UNITS, DE has not had a new UNIT in 12 freaking years, literally every other army has received new units and asking to have back old units is all DE is asking for, not even having a new unit, literally just an old unit that already has a kit that works for it.
And? Who cares if marine players gets a ton of new units, when the best options are the old units. DE like all the other eldar armies had a longer time of being in positive win rates, and by virtue of that more fun to play then marine armies.
Plus you did get new units. 2 special characters and a mook version of one of the characters. Marines in that time are more or less getting an update of their regular line spread over 3 or 4 editions, because that is how much time it will take GW to release stuff like captins or librarians on bikes or drop pods for primaris etc. And even then, the option just exisiting means nothing when A the army ain't a meta shaper and B most of them are not used. Primaris got like what 5-6 versions of predators and 3 versions of new speeders, and those aren't used. the primaris attack bikes are worse then the regular ones, the bunker the auto canon turret etc all dead options. On the other hand armies like DE not only have powerful lists, which survived nerfs unlike lets say salamander aggressor builds, and outside of tournament play they are strong enough to play and carry weaker unit, which of they don't have many.
That is why it is impossible to compare the two things. When DE lost their liquifires, they still stayed at 60%+ win rates, when as I mentioned before salamanders got their stuff nerfed, they stopped being played. The army does not work. And even they aren't in the worse situation, because armies like IF or RG were last time good in 8th ed.
Karol wrote: And? Who cares if marine players gets a ton of new units, when the best options are the old units. DE like all the other eldar armies had a longer time of being in positive win rates, and by virtue of that more fun to play then marine armies.
Plus you did get new units. 2 special characters and a mook version of one of the characters. Marines in that time are more or less getting an update of their regular line spread over 3 or 4 editions, because that is how much time it will take GW to release stuff like captins or librarians on bikes or drop pods for primaris etc. And even then, the option just exisiting means nothing when A the army ain't a meta shaper and B most of them are not used. Primaris got like what 5-6 versions of predators and 3 versions of new speeders, and those aren't used. the primaris attack bikes are worse then the regular ones, the bunker the auto canon turret etc all dead options. On the other hand armies like DE not only have powerful lists, which survived nerfs unlike lets say salamander aggressor builds, and outside of tournament play they are strong enough to play and carry weaker unit, which of they don't have many.
That is why it is impossible to compare the two things. When DE lost their liquifires, they still stayed at 60%+ win rates, when as I mentioned before salamanders got their stuff nerfed, they stopped being played. The army does not work. And even they aren't in the worse situation, because armies like IF or RG were last time good in 8th ed.
Its the literally point of this thread!!!! That armies are going with no love while GW release new armies and adds whole armies to Marines. No one is talking about Win rates!!
I had to make this bigger bc you again missed the point. I dont give a flying f that DE is not making top 5 at events anymore, I want some new units or old units back!
Karol wrote: Those are skirmish games. Where you make 10 models and forget about them.
For once, Karol, you're not wrong - but you've also missed the point I was making.
Andykp was arguing that making the existing guard regiments from the 'dex (plus Krieg) in plastic isn't good financial sense, because you're splitting the sales you could get for one set of boxes between seven or eight themed boxes. By set, I'm thinking we need three boxes to do the core of a regiment justice - you could add further boxes if you wanted specialist units for each regiment, but at the minimum I think you need a Command Squad box, an Infantry Squad box, and a Heavy Weapon Squad (or team) box.
I can understand concerns about th enumber of SKUs from a retailer perspective, but the way they're releasing content at present would allow for releasing the existing regiments, plus Krieg, over a period of years, without a retailer drowning in IG kits.
How? Well, you take advantage of the seasons/warzones that GW is utilising at the moment, and tie a regiment release into one season per year.
Here's how I'd look to do things, were I in charge...
Firstly, some kits are fine as is (possibly ignoring the prices, but that's a whole other pot of molluscs). I'd put the following infantry kits in that group:
- Cadian Command Squad
- Catachan Command Squad
- Cadian Heavy Weapon Squad*
- Catachan Heavy Weapon Squad*
- Krieg Veteran Guardsman**
- Tempestus Scions***
* - I wouldn't argue with a recut of the Heavy Weapon sprue itself, to allow for a wheeled carriage option or another heavy weapon, but I don't think it is needed.
** - The only problem I have with the Krieg kit as an Infantry squad kit is that three of the special weapons are missing as far as I can see (grenade launcher, meltagun, plasmagun). Well, that and it includes a bunch of parts for KT that don't serve much use in 40k, while increasing the price of the kit.
*** - Or, as they should be known by players of sufficient culture, Stormtroopers.
Before we look into how the season model could help the Guard, we have the Codex release to deal with first.
If I were in charge of the release, I'd have the following as part of the release:
- Resculpted Cadian infantry Squad (inc. all special weapon options and a "Sergeant lasgun" with chevrons on the arm)
- Resculpted Catachan infantry Squad (inc. all special weapon options and a "Sergeant lasgun" with chevrons on the arm)
- Krieg Command Squad
- Krieg Heavy Weapon Squad (using the existing HW frame, but with a Krieg crew sprue)
Add in other items like Kasrkin, Krieg Engineers, etc, as you want to, but the above four items would be at the core of the release.
At this point, three of the Guard regiments are fully-supported with decent plastic kits. Keep all three in store for 3-6 months as your initial release, then move two of them to Direct Only at the end of that window.
At this stage, the following Regiments are still in need of support: Valhallan, Vostroyan, Armageddon Steel Legion, Tallarn, Mordian and Praetorian.
If we're looking at a six-month season in 40k (which I think we are at the moment, but correct me if I'm wrong), then every other season you have a different one of these Regiments be the IG focal point for that Warzone. Perhaps we have Warzone: Armageddon, where you revisit the Steel Legion, for example.
At the point you're providing the focus on that Regiment, you release a Command/Infantry/HW set of squad boxes for that regiment, and cycle the preceding set of Regiment boxes to Direct Only. At no point do you mothball them, but certainly shift to "white box" packaging once they go to DO.
For the Mordians and Praetorians, I'd produce a Mordian Iron Guard kit, and then do a box (or DO release) similar to some of the HH weapon boxes where you get 40 or 50 Praetorian-style helmets, maybe a bugle arm, a standard, etc, to use on Mordian bodies.
+ + +
The thing with having multiple different styles of IG troops available is that the look of one regiment may appeal to someone when other styles don't. Someone who likes the look of Valhallans or Steel Legion isn't going to collect the army when the only infantry around are the Catachan Jungle Fighters, for example.
While each Regiment may not have as large a sales ceiling as if you only had the one set of kits, each one is likely to pull in people that other styles wouldn't, increasing the overall sales of the IG faction - seven or eight individually smaller slices can very easily make for a larger cake overall.
And before anyone harps on about sprue cost, I direct you back to Necromunda (especially), or Blood Bowl, or WarCry, etc. In most cases, a player will buy one, maybe two of any individual box for those games, and they have a smaller player pool than 40k does. Heck, once their vehicles are released we're at a point where the core six Necromunda gangs will have (using House Orlock as a reference) three plastic boxes and a plastic upgrade set in their range.
If GW can finance that many plastic releases for a single Necromunda gang, they can afford to do the 20 kits total over six years to support nine plastic Regiments, as well as the Scions.
Heck, if they did the Mordian release early to see what people thought of the Praetorian option, you could potentially see head-swap sets for the other regiments to make them even more flexible...
So to fully support all the regiments you mention here they need a squad, heavy weapon squad and command squad. 3 boxes. EACH. you listed 9 regiments, one that can be heads only. So you want one faction of the core game to have 25 kits for just their core infantry models rivalling a whole specialists games level of support, just for part of one faction. You then want that faction to get a major release each season (3 kits at least). It’s not just warehousing all this it’s the cost of machining it all as well and it’s proportion of production time. You basically want imperial guard to become their own specialist games branch with full support and to dominate the release schedule for 40k.
The difference between necromunda having all the gangs and guard not is, if I own a guard army already, I will still buy necromunda gangs, if I own a bunch of necromunda gangs I will still buy more. If I own a guard army and in 6 months you realise another, I don’t need another. I don’t want to invest the £100s into buying all my core infantry again, only to have to do it again 6 months down the line. So I don’t buy them. So you have still sold the same number of guard kits, but you have made 8 time the numbers of moulds, committed 8 times the design, marketing and warehousing to it. For no return. And you end up with a line that is a cluster feth of a mess and a huge investment and resource sink. Well done. Thank God you aren’t in charge.
25 kits ain't that much, probs slim it down to 3 styles, with multiple head swaps like Wargames Atlantic. Also, make them easy kit bash with each other. So that's 9 total. Add in the rest from there. Every once in awhile release special character and officer models.
Karol wrote: And? Who cares if marine players gets a ton of new units, when the best options are the old units. DE like all the other eldar armies had a longer time of being in positive win rates, and by virtue of that more fun to play then marine armies.
Positive win rates does not equal fun.
I don't care how powerful my army is if playing it bores me to tears.
Karol wrote: And? Who cares if marine players gets a ton of new units, when the best options are the old units. DE like all the other eldar armies had a longer time of being in positive win rates, and by virtue of that more fun to play then marine armies.
Positive win rates does not equal fun.
I don't care how powerful my army is if playing it bores me to tears.
Something tells me that this will not compute for Karol...and I agree with your statement 100%!
Karol wrote: And? Who cares if marine players gets a ton of new units, when the best options are the old units. DE like all the other eldar armies had a longer time of being in positive win rates, and by virtue of that more fun to play then marine armies.
Positive win rates does not equal fun.
I don't care how powerful my army is if playing it bores me to tears.
Something tells me that this will not compute for Karol...and I agree with your statement 100%!
yeah, theres a reason why i stopped playing my Admech and Drukhari when their new codexes came out, such boring codexes even if they won a lot
Karol wrote: And? Who cares if marine players gets a ton of new units, when the best options are the old units. DE like all the other eldar armies had a longer time of being in positive win rates, and by virtue of that more fun to play then marine armies.
Positive win rates does not equal fun.
I don't care how powerful my army is if playing it bores me to tears.
Something tells me that this will not compute for Karol...and I agree with your statement 100%!
As my kid daughter says "fun is fun, and being bored is boring".
So to fully support all the regiments you mention here they need a squad, heavy weapon squad and command squad. 3 boxes.
I know, you're responding to Dystartes here, and their post did suggest multiple boxes per regiment. But the posts I've been making in my conversation here are about how you DON'T actually need 3 boxes per regiment- you just need one box that allows you to build ten bodies with enough bits to build a Heavy Weapon Team, a Command Squad, a Vet Squad, a Special Weapon Squad or a Regular Troop Squad.
Want a Command Squad, a special Weapons squad, and two units of troops? Buy three copies of the box and build what you need.
And again, we don't need these boxes for Cadians, Catachans or Krieg... Because those regiments already have what they need (though Krieg might need another unit to round out the range). So that's six boxes on top of what we already have, plus the extra unit for Krieg would make seven. Not hard to do- GW just has to build boxes with enough options, and be okay with people having extensive bits collections again.
If one box of Sisters models can be used to make Dominions, Celestians or Battle Sisters, there is ZERO reason why GW can't make a Tallarn box that builds a Command Squad, Vet Squad, Special Weapons Squad or a Troops Squad.
If I own a guard army and in 6 months you release another, I don’t need another.
Maybe.
I say that because some players of 9th HAVE actually taken advantage of the rules it provides for game size. So some people, if they knew GW was going to release two regiment boxes per year (one per 40k season), would buy 25PL of regiment A, and play it in 25PL games until regiment B is released later that year, and then they by 3 copies of that box to build a platoon from regiment B... And now they can play either in 25PL games or BOTH in 50PL games. And so on, and so on... Until they had each of the regiments they were interested in.
Now before people respond to the numbers I've used, the numbers aren't important: the principle is that this version of the game was designed specifically to better facilitate escalation style play and armies that grow over time.
This stuff about buying and painting 2000 points worth of models before you can play? That was the design for the first 8 editions of the game. A lot of people are still trying to play 9th as if it was one of those earlier editions, but it isn't. Escalation/ detachment style lists are GW vision for the future of the game- they want the "You must buy and paint 2k points to play" mentality to die, because it absolutely restricts their player base.
GW makes expensive games, but even poor people can play a 25PL army. And if you buy 25PL/ year, after four years, it's up to you whether that's a single 100PL army, two 50PL armies, or four 25PL armies.
I don’t want to invest the £100s into buying all my core infantry again, only to have to do it again 6 months down the line.
You wouldn't HAVE TO replace your core infantry every 6 months. You COULD if you wanted to, but you'd never HAVE TO. If you only like one of the subfactions, obviously it's the only one you're going to buy. If you like more than one, you might buy smaller forces of each and combine those forces into a bigger army for larger games.
And yeah, if you're one of those poor suckers who can ONLY play in 2k games because you only play with strangers in stores, and your stores only allow 2k games, then sure- this approach won't work for you. You'd need 2k to get playing, and when the next box came, you'd probably be less likely to buy it... Unless you wanted that box for Kill Team.
So you have still sold the same number of guard kits, but you have made 8 time the numbers of moulds, committed 8 times the design, marketing and warehousing to it. For no return. And you end up with a line that is a cluster feth of a mess and a huge investment and resource sink. Well done. Thank God you aren’t in charge.
Well, as I've pointed out, it could be done in such a way that it is only 6 extra boxes. As Dystartes pointed out, there may be people who hate the look of Cadians, Catachans and Krieg, but who would go all in on Tallarn or Vostrians. That's the return on investment.
And if you release those boxes as Kill Teams, like the Krieg, now you're marketing each box for two different games. Someone with a 2k Cadian army might still by a Tallarn box for Kill Team. A fair number of guard players who also play Kill Team might actually buy one copy of every regiment box for KT in addition to their single regiment 2k 40k force.
I certainly would. I'd like 2k worth of Krieg, and I'd like a Kill Team of Tallarn and Vostrians. And guard aren't even my primary army.
So to fully support all the regiments you mention here they need a squad, heavy weapon squad and command squad. 3 boxes.
I know, you're responding to Dystartes here, and their post did suggest multiple boxes per regiment. But the posts I've been making in my conversation here are about how you DON'T actually need 3 boxes per regiment- you just need one box that allows you to build ten bodies with enough bits to build a Heavy Weapon Team, a Command Squad, a Vet Squad, a Special Weapon Squad or a Regular Troop Squad.
Want a Command Squad, a special Weapons squad, and two units of troops? Buy three copies of the box and build what you need.
And again, we don't need these boxes for Cadians, Catachans or Krieg... Because those regiments already have what they need (though Krieg might need another unit to round out the range). So that's six boxes on top of what we already have, plus the extra unit for Krieg would make seven. Not hard to do- GW just has to build boxes with enough options, and be okay with people having extensive bits collections again.
If one box of Sisters models can be used to make Dominions, Celestians or Battle Sisters, there is ZERO reason why GW can't make a Tallarn box that builds a Command Squad, Vet Squad, Special Weapons Squad or a Troops Squad.
If I own a guard army and in 6 months you release another, I don’t need another.
Maybe.
I say that because some players of 9th HAVE actually taken advantage of the rules it provides for game size. So some people, if they knew GW was going to release two regiment boxes per year (one per 40k season), would buy 25PL of regiment A, and play it in 25PL games until regiment B is released later that year, and then they by 3 copies of that box to build a platoon from regiment B... And now they can play either in 25PL games or BOTH in 50PL games. And so on, and so on... Until they had each of the regiments they were interested in.
Now before people respond to the numbers I've used, the numbers aren't important: the principle is that this version of the game was designed specifically to better facilitate escalation style play and armies that grow over time.
This stuff about buying and painting 2000 points worth of models before you can play? That was the design for the first 8 editions of the game. A lot of people are still trying to play 9th as if it was one of those earlier editions, but it isn't. Escalation/ detachment style lists are GW vision for the future of the game- they want the "You must buy and paint 2k points to play" mentality to die, because it absolutely restricts their player base.
GW makes expensive games, but even poor people can play a 25PL army. And if you buy 25PL/ year, after four years, it's up to you whether that's a single 100PL army, two 50PL armies, or four 25PL armies.
I don’t want to invest the £100s into buying all my core infantry again, only to have to do it again 6 months down the line.
You wouldn't HAVE TO replace your core infantry every 6 months. You COULD if you wanted to, but you'd never HAVE TO. If you only like one of the subfactions, obviously it's the only one you're going to buy. If you like more than one, you might buy smaller forces of each and combine those forces into a bigger army for larger games.
And yeah, if you're one of those poor suckers who can ONLY play in 2k games because you only play with strangers in stores, and your stores only allow 2k games, then sure- this approach won't work for you. You'd need 2k to get playing, and when the next box came, you'd probably be less likely to buy it... Unless you wanted that box for Kill Team.
So you have still sold the same number of guard kits, but you have made 8 time the numbers of moulds, committed 8 times the design, marketing and warehousing to it. For no return. And you end up with a line that is a cluster feth of a mess and a huge investment and resource sink. Well done. Thank God you aren’t in charge.
Well, as I've pointed out, it could be done in such a way that it is only 6 extra boxes. As Dystartes pointed out, there may be people who hate the look of Cadians, Catachans and Krieg, but who would go all in on Tallarn or Vostrians. That's the return on investment.
And if you release those boxes as Kill Teams, like the Krieg, now you're marketing each box for two different games. Someone with a 2k Cadian army might still by a Tallarn box for Kill Team. A fair number of guard players who also play Kill Team might actually buy one copy of every regiment box for KT in addition to their single regiment 2k 40k force.
I certainly would. I'd like 2k worth of Krieg, and I'd like a Kill Team of Tallarn and Vostrians. And guard aren't even my primary army.
I get what you are saying, and 6 extra boxes doesn’t sound much, but that’s 6 boxes extra just for the core troops of the faction. That’s a lot. That’s more than marines (primaris) have and guard aren’t ever going to be better support than marines. As much fun as it would be, and as much as some people would buy multiple regiments, most wouldn’t.
Now dropping different regiments in killteam sounds good, but they seem keen on exploring some of the less traditional stuff, like navy bleachers and rogue traders. But at the end of the day supporting loads of plastic kits for regiments makes no financial sense, even if it’s six more kits. Guard are already ahead of the game thanks to some ancient kits where the cost is already recouped many times over. The new releases coming aren’t meagre either. Plenty new kits by the look of it.
Orks have 4 troops kits, admech 2, sisters,2, genestealer cults 3 (one an upgrade sprue really) eldar 3, dark eldar 3. EVEN marines only have 6 - ten if you count all loyalist types (who are all older kits as well and cover half a dozen factions).
Guard already have 4 kits, and dystartes suggest we add 5-6 more and command and heavy weapons squads. Even adding 1 more regiment puts them on par with marines.
Redoing old kits makes more sense, you appeal to new players and those with armies already who will want to update. That’s the model they are on at the minute. ORK boyz, guardians, Cadians, chaos marines, all redo’s. But the idea of saturating a faction with 25 more kits all 8 versions of the same thing. No.
Which if you follow the Dao* isn't really a huge issue... 
that 