I know imperial assassins are deadly on the table top but how do you think they compare in the fluff

They are enhanced humans (I believe) but could a vindicate assassin defeat an astartes in unarmed combat? Or an ork? Or do they need their weapons?

Assassins have been described as inhumanly strong, but I think Marines are stronger. Both being heavily modified from base humans. Assassins are definitely more skilled in combat. But unarmed I'd imagine that they would struggle against power armour.

In "The Assassination of Gabriel Seth", the Imperial Hierarchy believe that...

Who Gabriel Seth?

mrFickle wrote:
Who Gabriel Seth?

Chapter Master of the Flesh Tearers.

Ignoring the usual plot armour, it depends on the Assassin.
Calidus are infiltrators most often used to eliminate targets that can be easily accessed through shapeshifting, i.e. Humans.
Culexus are used to target Psykers such as Farseers or Witches. All Culexus are Blanks which allows them to cause pain and fear in all beings with a connection to the Warp while remaining invisible to Warp entities.
Vindicare are your classic snipers. Not much else to say.
Eversor are used to utterly destroy an enemy's command structure. They will be deployed, given a specific target, and will not stop killing until that target is dead. If the Eversor is killed then it explodes as a last-ditch attempt to finish its mission.
Vanus assassins follow a more divergent route. They are the intelligence gatherers and planners who attempt to cause the deaths of their target without ever actually getting in the field. Propaganda, blackmail, and other non-violent means are how they kill their targets.
Venenum assassins are poisoners. Once again a very classic assassin trope.

Against an Astartes in combat, the Eversor or Culexus has the greatest chance.

Every assassin could kill an astartes if given time to prepare. If they have to face one unprepared then the eversor, culexus and callidus all stand good chances winning 1v1. In the book nemesis an eversor assasin takes on a space marine and kills him. Though it’s not really a surprise, the eversor is the most combat focused of the bunch.

 Gert wrote:
Ignoring the usual plot armour, it depends on the Assassin.
Calidus are infiltrators most often used to eliminate targets that can be easily accessed through shapeshifting, i.e. Humans.
Culexus are used to target Psykers such as Farseers or Witches. All Culexus are Blanks which allows them to cause pain and fear in all beings with a connection to the Warp while remaining invisible to Warp entities.
Vindicare are your classic snipers. Not much else to say.
Eversor are used to utterly destroy an enemy's command structure. They will be deployed, given a specific target, and will not stop killing until that target is dead. If the Eversor is killed then it explodes as a last-ditch attempt to finish its mission.
Vanus assassins follow a more divergent route. They are the intelligence gatherers and planners who attempt to cause the deaths of their target without ever actually getting in the field. Propaganda, blackmail, and other non-violent means are how they kill their targets.
Venenum assassins are poisoners. Once again a very classic assassin trope.

Against an Astartes in combat, the Eversor or Culexus has the greatest chance.

Good breakdown. Basically, it's not out of the question for an assassin to kill an astartes in a cage match, but their odds would be a lot worse without their equipment. A vindicaire without his guns is still a top-notch martial artist with either augmented or at least peak human physical strength. But he's probably not astartes strong, and surely not as astartes durable despite what his in-game statline says). In King Maker, we see a Vindicaire take out a squad of elite soldiers using a variety of methods. Most of them involved his gear; some of them were just martial arts moves. So we know they're far from incompetent without their traditional gear.

Also, it depends on what you mean by "unarmed" and "defeat". Does an Eversor still have his drug dispensers? Does he "defeat" the astartes in the cage match if he has to explode to do it? Does a venenum win if she covers the arena in lethal poisons before the match begins?

Back in 2nd edition it was a no-contest. Every Assassin was a combat monster that could beat marines into a fine pâté if it weren’t for their pesky armour. Eversors and Callidus had power weapon-equivalent gear and so were easily able to destroy anything they got close enough to. They got nerfed hard in 3rd edition and later because of an extreme overreaction to the one-trick-pony ploy of issuing a Vortex Grenade to a Callidus and having her replace a member of the enemy commander’s retinue so she could basically drop it on the boss’ head on T1.
Because clearly the problem was all assassins, not the existence of degenerate wargear cards or the option for such an individual to take one.

Anyway, fluffwise, Imperial Assassins very nearly are space marines; they have a number of similar implants plus some stuff that marines don’t. No Black Carapace though, or primarch-derived genetics. Eversors in particular have an extra heart to keep up with the insane requirements of their bodies. Combined with the extremity of their training and conditioning they should be able to take pretty much any marine.

The problem is that they are expensive; marines can be mass-produced and the cultured organs reproduce themselves without outside intervention. Assassin implants are custom built for each Assassin, same as how each Exitus Rifle is tailored and balanced for that specific Vindicare so each new Assassin is a project unto themselves with potentially experimental tweaks at the whim of the Temple.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
each new Assassin is a project unto themselves with potentially experimental tweaks at the whim of the Temple.

This can get kind of absurd. Like that time a Callidus was modified with extra arms, along the polymorph, to take the place of a purestrain geenestealer. It had something to do with infiltrating and taking over a gene stealer cult. It’s very silly but also kind of awesome.

On a side note eversors are known for being as much an issue to loyalists as to its actual target. If it’s told to go kill it will not stop killing no matter who gets there. I think there’s a short story in one of the roleplay books about an eversor who’s containment breaks on a spaceship. It’s last command was to kill everything on sight. It then proceeds to murder every single person on the ship. That’s the population of a modern day city.

Meh’lindi, from the very old Inquisition War series with Inquisitor Draco. As with most 40k characters, a bit of a tragic figure.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Meh%27Lindi

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Jaq_Draco

The Assassin should win every time unless we're talking about the absolute best Marine combatants. Assassins, like Marines, start out as human and then undergo their own process of enhancements, winding up as an even more extreme superhuman. Their stats in-game have always been way beyond the average marine. Their stats in-game are still representing the assassin with synskin, however, but the differences in abilities are still huge. Imo the bare assassin would still be the better "cage fighter" by a fair margin. Assassins after all are boutique-style, souped up killers that are usually intended to carry out their missions alone and with little to no support. A 1v1 fight for any of them should be a no-contest scenario.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Does an Eversor still have his drug dispensers?

I'd hope so, otherwise the drug cocktail in their system may go critical, leading to a BOOM!

 Insectum7 wrote:
The Assassin should win every time unless we're talking about the absolute best Marine combatants. Assassins, like Marines, start out as human and then undergo their own process of enhancements, winding up as an even more extreme superhuman. Their stats in-game have always been way beyond the average marine. Their stats in-game are still representing the assassin with synskin, however, but the differences in abilities are still huge. Imo the bare assassin would still be the better "cage fighter" by a fair margin. Assassins after all are boutique-style, souped up killers that are usually intended to carry out their missions alone and with little to no support. A 1v1 fight for any of them should be a no-contest scenario.

So who do you think could beat an assassin 1v1? Would it have to be someone like guilliman? Ghaz? Lucius?

mrFickle wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
The Assassin should win every time unless we're talking about the absolute best Marine combatants. Assassins, like Marines, start out as human and then undergo their own process of enhancements, winding up as an even more extreme superhuman. Their stats in-game have always been way beyond the average marine. Their stats in-game are still representing the assassin with synskin, however, but the differences in abilities are still huge. Imo the bare assassin would still be the better "cage fighter" by a fair margin. Assassins after all are boutique-style, souped up killers that are usually intended to carry out their missions alone and with little to no support. A 1v1 fight for any of them should be a no-contest scenario.

So who do you think could beat an assassin 1v1? Would it have to be someone like guilliman? Ghaz? Lucius?

Daemon Princes, high level Custodes, a SM Captain of he's having a good day. That sort of thing.

Psyker/anti-psyker plays into it if we get Librarians or Culexus involved, obviously.

Actually, if I remember right, the Cexus helm is there to selectively shield others from the abhorrent nature of the pariah gene, so maybe the culexus has an advantage in the sense that 'naked' they're more dangerous than having some of their equipment. It's been a while since I've reviewed that fluff though. . .

You also need to keep in mind Assassins aren’t just roving the Galaxy. When they are abroad, they’re on specific missions.

To take out a Chaos Lord, it tends to be an Assassination Force sent.

If it’s a troublesome Governor, Demagogue etc? Vindicare is likely your candidate, perhaps a Callidus if you need them to say something very specific/be impersonated once the Nasty Bit is done.

If there’s something like a Cult needing dealt with? That’s the sort of thing an Eversor is sent into. Because when you absolutely need to kill every Melon Fancier in the Emperor Accursed room? That’s what the Eversor is for. Not just smashing the High Heedyinn, but all his mates neatly decapitating the Cult’s command structure. One also suggests this is The Right Tool when you’re about to launch a major offensive to keep them disorganised and shattered. I imagine this might be particularly effective against Genestealer Cults, as once the Patriarch and Magus are dead, they lose focus and cohesion. Yes another Purestrain will become a Patriarch - but over time, if given the chance.

The Culexus of course is super, super specialised. Whilst still a deadly combatant, there are situations and foes that Temple is simply better suited against.

Which might I send against a Chapter Master going or gone rogue? Depends. Either a Vindicare if the Chapter itself might be redeemed, or an Eversor if the Chapter might need some…..percussive guidance on the error of its ways. But certainly not a Culexus, as they’re just not suited to it.

One on one, it depends. If both are unarmed and unarmored, then the assassin wins. With weapons, again the assassin. An unarmed astartes in PA vs an unarmed assassin would probably win, but that's just because no matter how strong you are you're not going to break ceramite with bare fists.

The assassin is trained for one on one combat soley. That is their purpose. Astartes are trained for general combat and war. The assassin is trained to swiftly eliminate solo targets very quickly and extract. A one on one combat is the assassins strength, it is not the space marines. He's not bad at it, but he is primarily trained to operate with his battle brothers.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Daemon Princes, high level Custodes, a SM Captain of he's having a good day. That sort of thing.

Psyker/anti-psyker plays into it if we get Librarians or Culexus involved, obviously.

Actually, if I remember right, the Cexus helm is there to selectively shield others from the abhorrent nature of the pariah gene, so maybe the culexus has an advantage in the sense that 'naked' they're more dangerous than having some of their equipment. It's been a while since I've reviewed that fluff though. . .

Daemon Princes lol? You think way too much of assassins

An average Custodian would beat most assassins. No need to dip into the stronger ones.

As to the question, an average Marine would be badly outperformed by an assassin in the assassin's specialty. So a Vindicare would outshoot most Marines, and an Eversor would outfight them.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Daemon Princes, high level Custodes, a SM Captain of he's having a good day. That sort of thing.

Psyker/anti-psyker plays into it if we get Librarians or Culexus involved, obviously.

Actually, if I remember right, the Cexus helm is there to selectively shield others from the abhorrent nature of the pariah gene, so maybe the culexus has an advantage in the sense that 'naked' they're more dangerous than having some of their equipment. It's been a while since I've reviewed that fluff though. . .

Daemon Princes lol? You think way too much of assassins

An average Custodian would beat most assassins. No need to dip into the stronger ones.

As to the question, an average Marine would be badly outperformed by an assassin in the assassin's specialty. So a Vindicare would outshoot most Marines, and an Eversor would outfight them.

Out of armor and without equipment? No, I think assassins carry the edge over any infantry in a 1v1. Their stats have consistently been very good throughout editions. They're hyper specialized souped up humans who's ONLY purpose is to kill.

Once a Marine or Custodes is in their armor, the assassin has to contend with that and all that comes with it. Without armor though? Assassin ftw, every time.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Out of armor and without equipment? No, I think assassins carry the edge over any infantry in a 1v1. Their stats have consistently been very good throughout editions. They're hyper specialized souped up humans who's ONLY purpose is to kill.

Once a Marine or Custodes is in their armor, the assassin has to contend with that and all that comes with it. Without armor though? Assassin ftw, every time.

Wait, we were talking out of armour and without equipment?

The Custodes would punch the assassin's fething head off.

Even on the tabletop where Custodes are somewhat less than they are in the fluff (where a random Custodian mogs Space Marine captains and chapter masters) even with the five attacks of the Assassin they are likely to do less wounds to a Custodian Guard than the reverse. Because the spindly assassin's S4 fists have trouble putting a dent in the chad T5 Custodian. Bear in mind that both of these models also have a 4+ invulnerable that is not dependent on equipment.

"The cellular alchemy that creates the warriors of the Adeptus Custodes leaves them forever touched by a spark of the Emperor’s own greatness. Beyond their martial might and incorruptible nobility, this energy manifests itself as an almost supernatural warding, as though the Custodians were protected by the hand of the Emperor. Bullets and bolts are turned aside at the last moment, blades fail to strike home, and even the psychic powers of the foe can suddenly and inexplicably flicker away to nothing in the face of the Ten Thousand."

Also bear in mind the math didn't take any army or subfaction bonuses in mind, which would only give the Custodes the further edge.

Also, your analysis of the assassins kind of holds water when comparing them to Astartes, but not Custodians. Custodes aren't general line infantry the way guardsmen or even Astartes are. They're an entire faction of renaissance men marty stus who are better than you at basically everything.

I'm not even sure I'd give them the win over an Astartes with those stips. Both are S and T 4 on the tabletop but that's an abstraction. I've never seen anything indicating they are as physically formidable as Astartes and given that their genetic modification of their physique specifically isn't nearly as extensive as far as I know I would bet on them being weaker.

They are certainly physically far inferior to Custodes.

Well, as a foundation Assassins in 2nd edition held better stats than a Space Marine Captain. Possibly they had the best base stats out of any single Imperial model, period.

Looking at the 8th ed Indexes, I'm still looking at far-better-than-a-marine. 7" move, WS BS 2+, S4 t4, 5W, 5A, Ld9 and a 4+ invuln for dodging. Those are still better-than-an-SM-Captian stats, plus more wounds and attacks than a Custodes (and faster).

How much of that is the synskin? Certainly some. But even without they're able to punch through steel (2nd ed Codex Imperialis) and ignore pain. Assassins undergo years of surgery and transformation, not unlike a Custodes or Space Marine. They're really just another type of hyper-augmented human, even more exotic, and one that doesn't get talked about nearly as much. They're even more rare and much more secretive.

As 40K lacks granularity I'd be interested to see what the Inquisition game, or the RPG has to say about them. But 40K wise, the Assassin is another "transhuman" and one that's always had FAR superior stats than your average marine.

As for Custodes, I'd still give the win to the Assassins on the account of the Custodes lore being so incredibly dumb. And despite the super-duper-lore, the base Custodes is 3W 3A, to the Assassins 5/5.

. . .

Reminder that there are two types of assassins. There's the mere-human Death Cult Assassins. Those are nothing close to the Officio Assassinorum operatives.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The assassin is trained for one on one combat soley. That is their purpose. Astartes are trained for general combat and war. The assassin is trained to swiftly eliminate solo targets very quickly and extract. A one on one combat is the assassins strength, it is not the space marines. He's not bad at it, but he is primarily trained to operate with his battle brothers.

That's going to depend very much on the Temple - an Eversor is there when you need to kill every breathing creature in a building, and possibly the building itself, for example, while a Vindicare is intended to be one shot, one kill, one individual (generally - some missions may involve multiple targets). Culevus is probably normally a single target, but would be equally dangerous to an entire cabal of psykers. Callidus could be surgical, or could be a bit more mass damage, depending on their approach.

Venenum and Vanus would be tricky to determine, as we've never really seen clearly how they operate - but I could easily see a Venenum doing a mass poisoning, or a Vanus messing with information to lead to a strike that takes out an entire regiment (or equivalent grouping).

Also worth keeping in mind the Temples we know of are simply the major Temples, and don’t preclude other, far more niche Temples existing.

For instance, we can’t rule out a Temple where the operatives put proper in industrial meat grinders. Yes it seems ludicrous and I am being silly with that specific example, but Necromunda has shown industrial meat grinders absolutely exist.

There is a (canon?) example of a Venenum operative that was sent to target a single rogue governor but when she got there (warp storm delayed) the man had retired/died and put in place a ruling council.
So she poisoned every seat in the parliament building the night before the annual ceremonial opening.

Can we stop comparing things like this? It entirely depends on who is writing the book. Your own personal head cannon is worthless when depicting a proverbial demi-god like a Custodian, to a mere human with advanced tech and training. They are merely a step above a Scion. They are not a step into the same STATE as a Astartes, or the same planet as a Custodian. And a Daemon Prince? Feth off with that nonsense. Even Chapter Masters are wary of Daemon princes.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can we stop comparing things like this? It entirely depends on who is writing the book. Your own personal head cannon is worthless when depicting a proverbial demi-god like a Custodian, to a mere human with advanced tech and training. They are merely a step above a Scion. They are not a step into the same STATE as a Astartes, or the same planet as a Custodian. And a Daemon Prince? Feth off with that nonsense. Even Chapter Masters are wary of Daemon princes.

^Says to stop comparing things. Immediately compares things.
Blames headcannon, then immediately headcannons.

"Merely a step above a scion"? . . . really?


From my limited knowledge of the HH series, my understanding is that several missions of single Assassins were sent to kill Horus. A Primarch. Now, those missions did fail, but there had to be some belief in a chance of success of working out, and Horus was a Primarch. A single Assassin was also sent at another Primarch, Kurze. Kurze likely let himself die. . . but still, only a single assassin was sent. One Assassin did blow the head off one of Horus's Captains in the process.

According to lexicanum (I think), Assassins undergo ten years body-mod surgery in addition to training. Officio Assassinorum Assassins, Marines, and Custodes are all similar in that they start as a normal human, and are then tricked out for purpose in their respective "processing". They absolutely occupy similar spaces of "superhuman". Demi-god, supersoldier, murderdrone, whatever.

Ignoring all the stuff about rules, a couple of points.
1 - Many assasins were sent to try and kill Horus with the hope that they would succeed. When it became obvious they didn't stand a chance the first Execution Force was convened and that failed as well. As for Curze, he let himself die so his actions would be punished which then justified his philosophy that people who did bad things needed punishing. At his death, Curze was vindicated in his beliefs.
2 - Yes assassins are super-human, just not as super-human as an Astartes. Almost every instance of background where an assassin kills an Astartes is by doing assassin things like snipers, shape-shifting or being a living bomb. One on one in a ring with no weapons and just their skills the assassin barely makes it either way.

For no.2, the stats say very much otherwise, to which I chalk it up to "as the story necessitates".

 Dysartes wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The assassin is trained for one on one combat soley. That is their purpose. Astartes are trained for general combat and war. The assassin is trained to swiftly eliminate solo targets very quickly and extract. A one on one combat is the assassins strength, it is not the space marines. He's not bad at it, but he is primarily trained to operate with his battle brothers.

That's going to depend very much on the Temple - an Eversor is there when you need to kill every breathing creature in a building, and possibly the building itself, for example, while a Vindicare is intended to be one shot, one kill, one individual (generally - some missions may involve multiple targets). Culevus is probably normally a single target, but would be equally dangerous to an entire cabal of psykers. Callidus could be surgical, or could be a bit more mass damage, depending on their approach.

Venenum and Vanus would be tricky to determine, as we've never really seen clearly how they operate - but I could easily see a Venenum doing a mass poisoning, or a Vanus messing with information to lead to a strike that takes out an entire regiment (or equivalent grouping).

Yeah, assassins are badasses, but I'm not sure it's accurate to describe them as being "trained for one on one combat soley." The whole point of assassins seems to be that they find ways to kill the target regardless of what's around said target. Need to kill a target who's paranoid to have a wall of bodyguards surrounding him at all times? Assassins will figure out how to get at him. They'll spend months going through combat drills where all they do is dismantle the bodyguards' favorite formations over and over again.

In fact, that's kind of a major consideration that the implied cage match scenario seems to disregard. Part of what makes assassins so lethal is that they don't have to think of their job as a straight up battle. Maybe a calidus can outduel a marine captain, and maybe she can't, but I imagine she'd much rather decapitate him from behind on the way to the bathroom than challenge him to a fight. Maybe a vindicaire could win a 1v1 on an island arena, but but he'd rather snipe his target to death while they brush their teeth. And assassins are very, very good at getting access to your bathroom.

The reason I say that is because if an assassin is fighting a bunch of bodyguards at once, the mission has gone tits up. Ideally, they only ever face their target. Even more ideally, the target never realizes till he is dead. But in the event the target does become aware, they need to end him before he can call for help.

Sure, there is the Eversor assassin, but aside from that the assassins aren't meant for brute force assaults. They're meant to sneak in, have a one v one, and then leave. So a one v one is mostly what they have trained for. Not an honorable duel of course, they're never meant to have a "fair fight" as it were. They're not going to attack a dude who is currently surrounded by bodyguards unless they are an Eversor(because that is their purpose) or a Vindicare(cheating with a sniper rifle).

Random, barely on-topic question: how do people pronounce "Eversor"?

The teenage me who first encountered the word in 3rd edition chose the path of least resistance and assumed it was "ever sore"

But given the Latin affectations of the setting/writing, it actually seems more legitimate to pronounce it like "Ee Versur" (almost a rhyme for "reverser"). Kind of a tricky one, that dawns on you gradually (like how the Executor in Star Wars would properly be pronounced the same as the executor (of a will) rather than like Execute Ur).

 Grey Templar wrote:
Sure, there is the Eversor assassin, but aside from that the assassins aren't meant for brute force assaults. They're meant to sneak in, have a one v one, and then leave. So a one v one is mostly what they have trained for. Not an honorable duel of course, they're never meant to have a "fair fight" as it were. They're not going to attack a dude who is currently surrounded by bodyguards unless they are an Eversor(because that is their purpose) or a Vindicare(cheating with a sniper rifle).

Or a Callidus, who eliminated one of the bodyguards a month ago and has been posing as him since, using a distraction to allow them to take out the person the "bodyguard" is meant to be protecting.

Or the Culexus, should the target be a psyker, whose enhanced Pariah field means the bodyguards can't even perceive him/her before the eye of their helm allows them to eliminate the target.

Or the Venenum, who knew the route the target was taking, and has rigged up some form of poison gas dispenser, so the target and bodyguards go down - or, if they were feeling really sneaky, has the gas be one part of a binary toxin, with the other part in something the target is going to eat/drink hours later.

Or the Vanus, who has set things up in such a Rube Goldberg fashion that the target wasn't expecting the Munitorum Armoured Container that has slipped out of the grips of a transport Valkyrie above them, and is due to impact in 3, 2, 1...

o one said anything about fighting fair this is 40k. in a cage match i'd still expect an assassin to have a load of trick up their sleeve rather than resort to a kick boxing fight. I'd always thought that if you ended up in a 1v1 with most assassins they probably spend most of the fight behind you as they are super quick and nimble


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Altruizine wrote:
Random, barely on-topic question: how do people pronounce "Eversor"?

The teenage me who first encountered the word in 3rd edition chose the path of least resistance and assumed it was "ever sore"

But given the Latin affectations of the setting/writing, it actually seems more legitimate to pronounce it like "Ee Versur" (almost a rhyme for "reverser"). Kind of a tricky one, that dawns on you gradually (like how the Executor in Star Wars would properly be pronounced the same as the executor (of a will) rather than like Execute Ur).

well you just helped me realise I'm reading it wrong, I have been saying ev-ess-or in my head haha

 Dysartes wrote:
Or the Vanus, who has set things up in such a Rube Goldberg fashion that the target wasn't expecting the Munitorum Armoured Container that has slipped out of the grips of a transport Valkyrie above them, and is due to impact in 3, 2, 1...

If they are going to do any rube-goldberging it will be the last statue of the Emperor Deified that the target was going to ceremonially destroy to symbolise total victory, and they would be killed by the statue’s sword piercing their heart, or decapitating them. Depends on the angles and the platform, really. But yeah the point is to make the death a public spectacle to show the Emperor’s power.
That and the article in the next episode of rebellion weekly about how the former governor was actually hoarding half the tithes and they never really had to send that much to the Imperium in the first place.

The Vanus is definitely the Temple I'd like to hear more about, in terms of how it operates - I can picture the Venenum approach fairly clearly, but an Assassin who operates via information is a bit harder to picture.

I thought one of the big rules of Background is that we don't bring table top into fluff discussions. As such, all in game rules and stats are pointless. They don't indicate what a unit is truly able to do, or not do. A Calladius CAN kill Dante, or Jain Zar and Asurmen, Drazhar, and even Trajaan Valoris. Is anyone here really going to argue that Trajaan and Drazhar are not as good at fighting as one of them?

 Dysartes wrote:
The Vanus is definitely the Temple I'd like to hear more about, in terms of how it operates - I can picture the Venenum approach fairly clearly, but an Assassin who operates via information is a bit harder to picture.

Check out Kingslayer (Kingmaker?) if you haven't already. A vanus features prominently. I get the impression that they're a lot less bothered about the equipment they use to do the actual killing than the other temples. A common stubgun is preferable to a custom-made needle pistol if the former can be more reliably slipped through security to give the vanus an opening. They also seem to be kind of mechanicus-y? I was a bit unclear about that.

 Dysartes wrote:
The Vanus is definitely the Temple I'd like to hear more about, in terms of how it operates - I can picture the Venenum approach fairly clearly, but an Assassin who operates via information is a bit harder to picture.

I think of how they killed those passenger jets in Die Hard 2 - so many safety and control systems rely on accurate information about the real world…
Imagine if the governor’s personal elevator suddenly thought that 50rpm on the main ascent cable drum was the safe and ideal speed instead of, say, five? Or that operating the brakes at full clamp instantly was appropriate?
But maybe they don’t have to kill them; discrediting them enough that their minions do it for you is also fine; oops that deepfaked video of the Governor ranting about how they were going to have to kill all their advisors and start over found it’s way onto the personal terminals of all the advisors? However did that happen?

Venus are basically a one-person Mission Impossible team.

In some cases a quiet one on one hit my be the way to go. In others, the term “extreme prejudice” may be part of the mission briefing, and there is no such thing as a) overkill and b) excessive collateral damage. Enabling an abject lesson in “look what happened not just to the bad guy but everyone in the same building, slowly and with malice aforethought” can be useful in quelling future malfeasance.

See, all this talk of the “mysterious” two Temples got me thinking; do the Venenum know the secrets of the Life-Eater? Or some of them, anyway…

Because the impact of seeing your demagogue literally dissolve into a puddle of goo in front of the crowds cannot be underestimated…

Assassins always struck me as odd though. What good is the use of an Imperial assassin to root out a specific target when there are space Wizards in existence? For instance, all that is needed is a sufficiently powerful psyker to walk into a room (or within sight line) of a target, and they can literally crush the person with their mind. (Lydia Zane for instance, would be a good example of this). If Assassins are so rediculously rare and special that only a certain number can exist at one time, and they all have to be strictly guarded and ordered about, why not just have an inquisitor go to the planet where traitor governor is, and poison/mind kill him? Surely a hotshot headshot from a mile out, from a single Scion level human is JUST as effective as a Vindicaire's Exitus Rifle from the same distance?

This raises the question, who would win, Larkin or a Vindicaire in a shooting contest? Neither, because it's all made up.

Because Psykers are notoriously difficult to control. Even trained Imperial Psykers are intense risks to those they serve alongside.
As for the other options, Inquisitors have more important concerns than just assassinations and Scions are soldiers, not assassins.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Assassins always struck me as odd though. What good is the use of an Imperial assassin to root out a specific target when there are space Wizards in existence? For instance, all that is needed is a sufficiently powerful psyker to walk into a room (or within sight line) of a target, and they can literally crush the person with their mind. (Lydia Zane for instance, would be a good example of this). If Assassins are so rediculously rare and special that only a certain number can exist at one time, and they all have to be strictly guarded and ordered about, why not just have an inquisitor go to the planet where traitor governor is, and poison/mind kill him? Surely a hotshot headshot from a mile out, from a single Scion level human is JUST as effective as a Vindicaire's Exitus Rifle from the same distance?

This raises the question, who would win, Larkin or a Vindicaire in a shooting contest? Neither, because it's all made up.

Gert wrote:Because Psykers are notoriously difficult to control. Even trained Imperial Psykers are intense risks to those they serve alongside.
As for the other options, Inquisitors have more important concerns than just assassinations and Scions are soldiers, not assassins.

What Gert said. Plus, sanctioned imperial psykers usually aren't in great shape once they've been "trained". Sure, a sanctioned psyker might be able to make the target's head explode if you get them in a room together, but how are you getting the psyker into the room? A culexus or vindicaire will parkour their way through a continent's worth of hive sprawl so they can shimmy their way up a spire and go for the kill. A sanctioned psyker more or less has to be dropped off in the room by others. I'm sure inquisitors do make extensive use of non-Officio Assassinorum assassins. When a scion with a sniper rifle is sufficient to get the job done, I'm sure an inquisitor would march rather use said scion; it's probably a lot faster and less paperwork to requisition. But the officio assassinorum is for those over-the-top extreme missions where a guy with a grav chute and a hotshot won't be enough.

Also, sometimes you don't want to swing your inquisitorial papers around. An inquisitor can theoretically get in the room with pretty much anyone provided he flashes his rosarius. But maybe doing that causes the target to go to ground or self-destruct before they can be interrogated or give the signal to start the cult uprising or whatever. If you, as an inquisitor, aren't particularly stealthy and don't have henchmen that are particularly stealthy, then you might be better off requisitioning an assassin. Also, sometimes you just don't want the inquisition's name on a mission. Ex: Part of the premise of Kingmaker (Kingslayer?) is that the planet sees itself as an ally of the imperium rather than a vassal, and it's starting to toy with the notion of secession. Having an inquisitor show up, stick a psyker next to your king, and then brainsplode said king would be more likely to encourage revolt/secession than to quail it.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Assassins always struck me as odd though. What good is the use of an Imperial assassin to root out a specific target when there are space Wizards in existence? For instance, all that is needed is a sufficiently powerful psyker to walk into a room (or within sight line) of a target, and they can literally crush the person with their mind. (Lydia Zane for instance, would be a good example of this). If Assassins are so rediculously rare and special that only a certain number can exist at one time, and they all have to be strictly guarded and ordered about, why not just have an inquisitor go to the planet where traitor governor is, and poison/mind kill him? Surely a hotshot headshot from a mile out, from a single Scion level human is JUST as effective as a Vindicaire's Exitus Rifle from the same distance?

This raises the question, who would win, Larkin or a Vindicaire in a shooting contest? Neither, because it's all made up.

Gert wrote:Because Psykers are notoriously difficult to control. Even trained Imperial Psykers are intense risks to those they serve alongside.
As for the other options, Inquisitors have more important concerns than just assassinations and Scions are soldiers, not assassins.

What Gert said. Plus, sanctioned imperial psykers usually aren't in great shape once they've been "trained". Sure, a sanctioned psyker might be able to make the target's head explode if you get them in a room together, but how are you getting the psyker into the room? A culexus or vindicaire will parkour their way through a continent's worth of hive sprawl so they can shimmy their way up a spire and go for the kill. A sanctioned psyker more or less has to be dropped off in the room by others. I'm sure inquisitors do make extensive use of non-Officio Assassinorum assassins. When a scion with a sniper rifle is sufficient to get the job done, I'm sure an inquisitor would march rather use said scion; it's probably a lot faster and less paperwork to requisition. But the officio assassinorum is for those over-the-top extreme missions where a guy with a grav chute and a hotshot won't be enough.

Also, sometimes you don't want to swing your inquisitorial papers around. An inquisitor can theoretically get in the room with pretty much anyone provided he flashes his rosarius. But maybe doing that causes the target to go to ground or self-destruct before they can be interrogated or give the signal to start the cult uprising or whatever. If you, as an inquisitor, aren't particularly stealthy and don't have henchmen that are particularly stealthy, then you might be better off requisitioning an assassin. Also, sometimes you just don't want the inquisition's name on a mission. Ex: Part of the premise of Kingmaker (Kingslayer?) is that the planet sees itself as an ally of the imperium rather than a vassal, and it's starting to toy with the notion of secession. Having an inquisitor show up, stick a psyker next to your king, and then brainsplode said king would be more likely to encourage revolt/secession than to quail it.

Remarkable Headcannon, but alas, untrue. A good enough psyker doesn't even need line of sight, and I dare someone to stop a member of the planetary Navigator houses entry to see the potentate of whatever world they are on. Or a member of the Ordos sufficiently skilled in Psycraft. Leave all the Jon Wick nonsense behind. In a world where you can literally summon demons, and kill people with strong thoughts, Leon is irrelevant. Besides, forget all the subterfuge. If there was a world that had declared active rebellion against the Imperium, (Only really significant threat enough to warrant the Officio Assasinorum getting involved, then there is hardly anything stopping an Inquisitor from literally teleporting into the bedroom of the governor, and shooting him with a pistol. Or in a worst case scenario, a Single squad of regular gen 1 Astartes is sufficient to drop pod in, and kill everyone. Again, if Assassins are Such a powerful asset, then a planetary strike from an orbiting naval cruiser on the palace would be more efficient than an assassin. What is the point of subtlety in a universe like 40k? It's a completely pointless concept.

Getting back to the main thread point, if the book is about assassins, by a writer that favors them, they win. If the book is written by the guy who writes mostly chaos stuff, the Chaos Champion wins. There is no better than. It's all whos writing the fluff at the time.

Keep in mind, the Assassins fluff is the most anime fan crap in all the 40k fandom. It's the Bronies of 40k.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Remarkable Headcannon, but alas, untrue. A good enough psyker doesn't even need line of sight,

I mean, Ahriman doesn't seem to solve his problems by brainsploding people from the other side of the planet, so it seems like there's a practical upper limit. And if Ahriman and Eldrad aren't using long-distance mind crushes as a regular tactic, the number of humans capable of pulling it off are probably few enough for them to be incapable of fulfilling the assassinorum's work load. I do like the idea of a psychic assassin though. Seems like that ought to be a thing. Maybe the idea freaks the imperials out too much.

and I dare someone to stop a member of the planetary Navigator houses entry to see the potentate of whatever world they are on. Or a member of the Ordos sufficiently skilled in Psycraft.

Not sure a warboss, chaos lord, farseer, or GSC magus would be feel the need to accept a navigator's meeting invite. The planetary governor might not either if he's a daemon wearing human skin or a GSCultist. Or a rogue assassin that doesn't realize he's been possessed by a daemon for months now. Plenty of reasons for knocking politely on the front door to not be a viable means of killing someone.

Besides, forget all the subterfuge. If there was a world that had declared active rebellion against the Imperium, (Only really significant threat enough to warrant the Officio Assasinorum getting involved, then there is hardly anything stopping an Inquisitor from literally teleporting into the bedroom of the governor, and shooting him with a pistol. Or in a worst case scenario, a Single squad of regular gen 1 Astartes is sufficient to drop pod in, and kill everyone. Again, if Assassins are Such a powerful asset, then a planetary strike from an orbiting naval cruiser on the palace would be more efficient than an assassin. What is the point of subtlety in a universe like 40k? It's a completely pointless concept.

Well, in the case of Assassinorum: Kingmaker...

So kicking down the front door would be counter-productive in that scenario.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
See, all this talk of the “mysterious” two Temples got me thinking; do the Venenum know the secrets of the Life-Eater? Or some of them, anyway…

Because the impact of seeing your demagogue literally dissolve into a puddle of goo in front of the crowds cannot be underestimated…

Life Eater virus is quite effective, but the issue is that after that demagogue dissolves into a goo pile the crowd that watched it will be turning into goo themselves very soon. It kinda spreads unless it is contained with fire very quickly.

While I'm sure any of the assassin temples could be permitted to access Life Eater virus, it would definitely not be the preferred method due to it's very very messy nature.

Its the sort of thing where "ooops, I dropped it, there goes the whole planet!" is very much in the cards. Only difference between a small vial and a bunch of virus bombs is how long it will take to destroy all life on the planet. Months and weeks vs hours.

Navigators are barely tolerated (even if they are fundamental to the imperium) mutants at the best of times. If they start wandering around and deliberately assassinating important people I think it would go badly for them.

So an inquisitor then. Point is, super John Wick's in Kink outfits with guns are completely pointless in a universe where magic exists. And you're right, Arhiman can't do that. But he's not the upper limit. Mephiston, the Emperor, and Malcador are the upper limit. But they aren't getting tasked with killing 1 governor in a random planet any time soon. Lydia Zane kills a chaos cultist psyker in her delirious haze, without seeing him. She finds him with her mind and kills him. So it doesn't take a master psyker to do it, it's just easier to do it face to face.

Again, if space magic exists, rules on what is normal do not exist. Therefor, you can't say what is normal or even possible. Because I have this magic mcguffin over here that allows me to break any rule. See my point?

Point is, what good is all the subtlety of a master assassin when you can literally just use magic?

Are we really to believe that the Imperium of man is incapable of removing a single human obstacle from it's path without spending the cost that is involved in deploying an assassin? Surely paying the cost to send an inquisitor would be easier. Lets take the Vervunhive Campaign in Gaunt's series as an example. An entire two hives on a single planet go basically rogue, and end up making the world useless to the entire crusade. Would an assassin have stopped this? No, Would the naval fleet lancing the Chaos infested first hive have stopped it? Most likely yes.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A good enough psyker doesn't even need line of sight, and I dare someone to stop a member of the planetary Navigator houses entry to see the potentate of whatever world they are on. Or a member of the Ordos sufficiently skilled in Psycraft.

So you're just going to ignore the part about Psykers being incredibly unreliable and dangerous? There's a reason the Imperium doesn't let Psykers just wander about and when Psykers are used they are 9/10 times accompanied by teams of handlers or executioners ready to kill them at the slightest hint of a loss of control. There are no half measures when it comes to Psykers for the Imperium.
As for Navigators, they don't leave their ships. They are also one of the most valuable resources the Imperium has more than Space Marines, the Custodes, or even the Primarchs. Without Navigators the Imperium doesn't function. Wasting them on assassination attempts is beyond idiotic.
Inquisitors can do murders and sometimes get away with it but going about flashing a Rosette tends to drum up attention when often that attention isn't needed. Heck, most times an Inquisitor might not even take to the field instead using operatives like assassins.

Leave all the Jon Wick nonsense behind. In a world where you can literally summon demons, and kill people with strong thoughts, Leon is irrelevant.

Yes, Daemon summoning. A thing the Imperium very much endorses and encourages. /s

Besides, forget all the subterfuge. If there was a world that had declared active rebellion against the Imperium, (Only really significant threat enough to warrant the Officio Assasinorum getting involved, then there is hardly anything stopping an Inquisitor from literally teleporting into the bedroom of the governor, and shooting him with a pistol. Or in a worst case scenario, a Single squad of regular gen 1 Astartes is sufficient to drop pod in, and kill everyone. Again, if Assassins are Such a powerful asset, then a planetary strike from an orbiting naval cruiser on the palace would be more efficient than an assassin. What is the point of subtlety in a universe like 40k? It's a completely pointless concept.

Astartes aren't going to show up for one random world having a bit of rebellion. Heck, most Inquisitors aren't going to show up for a planet having a bit of a rebellion. They also drum up a lot of noise that can result in the instigators of said rebellion scattering and hiding, therefore ensuring the continuation of said rebellion. Assassins are used specifically to avoid those things and subtlety is very important when it comes to politics especially. A show of force only gets you so far before people start getting bolder but a hidden agent who could be anywhere at any time ready to kill those who fall out of line? That keeps the people in check.
Assassins also aren't just used for rebelling Imperial worlds so your examples aren't going to work for every single situation. The lance strike one especially is completely idiotic.

Why have armies then, when you can just use magic? Why fleets? Magic!

On the other topic: What makes you think deploying a fleet to boil the governor’s palace from orbit is somehow cheaper than an Assassin? Especially when the fleet has fleet-scale jobs to be done elsewhere.
The whole point of the Officio Assassinorum is to be the surgical scalpel in the Imperium’s armoury vs. the sundry swords, hammers, axes, pliers etc. which make up the rest of it.

 Gert wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A good enough psyker doesn't even need line of sight, and I dare someone to stop a member of the planetary Navigator houses entry to see the potentate of whatever world they are on. Or a member of the Ordos sufficiently skilled in Psycraft.

So you're just going to ignore the part about Psykers being incredibly unreliable and dangerous? There's a reason the Imperium doesn't let Psykers just wander about and when Psykers are used they are 9/10 times accompanied by teams of handlers or executioners ready to kill them at the slightest hint of a loss of control. There are no half measures when it comes to Psykers for the Imperium.
As for Navigators, they don't leave their ships. They are also one of the most valuable resources the Imperium has more than Space Marines, the Custodes, or even the Primarchs. Without Navigators the Imperium doesn't function. Wasting them on assassination attempts is beyond idiotic.
Inquisitors can do murders and sometimes get away with it but going about flashing a Rosette tends to drum up attention when often that attention isn't needed. Heck, most times an Inquisitor might not even take to the field instead using operatives like assassins.

Leave all the Jon Wick nonsense behind. In a world where you can literally summon demons, and kill people with strong thoughts, Leon is irrelevant.

Yes, Daemon summoning. A thing the Imperium very much endorses and encourages. /s

Besides, forget all the subterfuge. If there was a world that had declared active rebellion against the Imperium, (Only really significant threat enough to warrant the Officio Assasinorum getting involved, then there is hardly anything stopping an Inquisitor from literally teleporting into the bedroom of the governor, and shooting him with a pistol. Or in a worst case scenario, a Single squad of regular gen 1 Astartes is sufficient to drop pod in, and kill everyone. Again, if Assassins are Such a powerful asset, then a planetary strike from an orbiting naval cruiser on the palace would be more efficient than an assassin. What is the point of subtlety in a universe like 40k? It's a completely pointless concept.

Astartes aren't going to show up for one random world having a bit of rebellion. Heck, most Inquisitors aren't going to show up for a planet having a bit of a rebellion. They also drum up a lot of noise that can result in the instigators of said rebellion scattering and hiding, therefore ensuring the continuation of said rebellion. Assassins are used specifically to avoid those things and subtlety is very important when it comes to politics especially. A show of force only gets you so far before people start getting bolder but a hidden agent who could be anywhere at any time ready to kill those who fall out of line? That keeps the people in check.
Assassins also aren't just used for rebelling Imperial worlds so your examples aren't going to work for every single situation. The lance strike one especially is completely idiotic.

Incredibly dangerous is negated by their constant use, necessity in almost everything, and frequent integration into field use. Most if not all guard units have some form of psyker, whether it's a navigator, or just the person who sends messages back and forth, or defensive screening, they are baked into their plans. Also, the Astartes use them efficiently without major issue. The only ones who don't are the BT, and they are an extreme outlier in all things. I'm really not understanding how this is so difficult for you.

Let me ask it another way: How many stakes do you need to kill a level 50 vampire? Zero, because Vampires don't exist. So arguing about the laws and rules regarding their non-existence is pointless.

What good are Assassins in a conceptual universe with no defining rules, and the ones that do exist are made up to suit the author's narrative?

If we had a book that said Assassins are used as exceptionally good Chambermaids, does that mean all Assassins receive training like that? No, it was just something the author put in to suit the narrative.

Assassins are the Tom Bombadil or 40k. They are both capable of defeating the greatest evil in existence, and incapable of doing so, simultaneously. Yes, an assassin could take down an Astartes in a book centered around them. Or they get punched into paste if the writer is pro-SM.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Incredibly dangerous is negated by their constant use, necessity in almost everything, and frequent integration into field use. Most if not all guard units have some form of psyker, whether it's a navigator, or just the person who sends messages back and forth, or defensive screening, they are baked into their plans. Also, the Astartes use them efficiently without major issue. The only ones who don't are the BT, and they are an extreme outlier in all things. I'm really not understanding how this is so difficult for you.

1 - "Constant" in terms of the immense military power of the Imperium is still incredibly rare. Most humans will never meet a Psyker and even most Guardsmen will never meet a Psyker.
2 - Most Guard units do not use Psykers and when they do they are kept under heavy guard with at least one Commisar nearby ready to blow their brains out at the slightest hint of possession which is very common for human Psykers. The overall theatre command might have an Astropath to send messages but most do not because of the general hatred of witches in the Imperium.
3 - Librarians are miles above and beyond the training of a regular human Psyker. They have extra equipment, more specialised facilities to train in and their training is much more intense. Even then, they still suffer the same scrutiny and revulsion from their fellow Astartes. One of the primary duties of Chaplains is to watch for corruption in their charges and in Librarians especially.

What good are Assassins in a conceptual universe with no defining rules, and the ones that do exist are made up to suit the author's narrative?

If we had a book that said Assassins are used as exceptionally good Chambermaids, does that mean all Assassins receive training like that? No, it was just something the author put in to suit the narrative.

Assassins are the Tom Bombadil or 40k. They are both capable of defeating the greatest evil in existence, and incapable of doing so, simultaneously. Yes, an assassin could take down an Astartes in a book centered around them. Or they get punched into paste if the writer is pro-SM.

If you can't get over that you need to stop joining discussions in the forum because you aren't actually adding anything to them apart from being a prat.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So an inquisitor then. Point is, super John Wick's in Kink outfits with guns are completely pointless in a universe where magic exists. And you're right, Arhiman can't do that. But he's not the upper limit. Mephiston,

I'm sorry but in what world is Mephiston the upper limit?

@Fezzik - I’m not sure what you are trying to argue here. Assassins exist in 40k because they exist in 40k. They have a defined role that is quite well set out ever since Rogue Trader. Your point on the he winner of any given combat in a book will depend on who is writing is entirely correct.

However then pointing to psykers as the solution to everything rather goes off piste. You can’t put specific rules on fictional magic, but equally the fluff is pretty clear that psykers aren’t used to solve every problem. So we are back to what gets used is whatever the writer wants to write about.

Regarding Vervunhive, Dan Abnett wanted to write about a civil war and conflict using Guard regiments. Another author could have used the same kind of setup, but much earlier where the application of an assassin could have prevented the civil war.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Again, if space magic exists, rules on what is normal do not exist. Therefor, you can't say what is normal or even possible. Because I have this magic mcguffin over here that allows me to break any rule. See my point?

Point is, what good is all the subtlety of a master assassin when you can literally just use magic?

This is literally as stupid take as claiming existence of Gandalf and Saruman in LotR means battles of Helms deep, Pelennor fields and black gate are pointless because Gandalf can just nuke Witch King with fireball. Or teleport into Mount Doom making Frodo pointless. Or Aragorn has no place in story because Gandalf is older, wiser, and can just cast mind control to make sure no one will ever do bad things again. Magic!

Would the naval fleet lancing the Chaos infested first hive have stopped it? Most likely yes.

Imagine USA nuking Detroit after first riot inside. No, it would most likely cause every single other hive to rebel at once. You don't realize how comical what you said sounds? Especially seeing Hives often have irreplaceable stuff from Dark Age sitting inside so this 'solution' is even dumber than it would be in RL?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So an inquisitor then. Point is, super John Wick's in Kink outfits with guns are completely pointless in a universe where magic exists. And you're right, Arhiman can't do that. But he's not the upper limit. Mephiston,

I'm sorry but in what world is Mephiston the upper limit?

In modern 40k, especially if your examples are Imperial-aligned?

Based on every description I've seen, the Lord of Death would definitely be in the top tier of psykers. Maybe not the (Blood) Angel atop the Christmas Tree, but certainly up there.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So an inquisitor then. Point is, super John Wick's in Kink outfits with guns are completely pointless in a universe where magic exists. And you're right, Arhiman can't do that. But he's not the upper limit. Mephiston,

I'm sorry but in what world is Mephiston the upper limit?

I mean, he's the only living psker to contest the hive mind correct? Not only that, but he literally stops the DP Karbander from escaping his prison, he withstands psychic tests that literally cause all the other librarians' heads to explode, most chapters regard him as the most powerful librarian in the Astartes, he's spoken with the dead spirit of a Primarch, I mean, his list of psychic feats is almost as great as Dante's list of martial feats.

Yeah, he's top 10 among humans.

But he's still not as strong as some others....

Eisenhorne, Ravenor, Voke, Heldane, Malcador, any GK (not sure where they rank), etc.

Not sure where or how to rank Psykers but I know Mephy is up there near the top of humanity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Irbis wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Again, if space magic exists, rules on what is normal do not exist. Therefor, you can't say what is normal or even possible. Because I have this magic mcguffin over here that allows me to break any rule. See my point?

Point is, what good is all the subtlety of a master assassin when you can literally just use magic?

This is literally as stupid take as claiming existence of Gandalf and Saruman in LotR means battles of Helms deep, Pelennor fields and black gate are pointless because Gandalf can just nuke Witch King with fireball. Or teleport into Mount Doom making Frodo pointless. Or Aragorn has no place in story because Gandalf is older, wiser, and can just cast mind control to make sure no one will ever do bad things again. Magic!

Would the naval fleet lancing the Chaos infested first hive have stopped it? Most likely yes.

Imagine USA nuking Detroit after first riot inside. No, it would most likely cause every single other hive to rebel at once. You don't realize how comical what you said sounds? Especially seeing Hives often have irreplaceable stuff from Dark Age sitting inside so this 'solution' is even dumber than it would be in RL?

If Detroit was the cause of the entire planet turning into daemons or 6 armed mutants, or slaneshi slaves, then yes, nuking Detroit makes sense. Think about the scale here. Detroit is a small cost for saving the entire planet, especially when the specific planet in question is the only place that a super specific and vital weapon is made. I don't think most Imperial leaders would bat an eye at the death of millions to save billions.

Dont Nuke Detroit!! ... Cant we just settled on nuking a more hideous city like, I dont know... Vegas or Orlando?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So an inquisitor then. Point is, super John Wick's in Kink outfits with guns are completely pointless in a universe where magic exists. And you're right, Arhiman can't do that. But he's not the upper limit. Mephiston,

I'm sorry but in what world is Mephiston the upper limit?

I mean, he's the only living psker to contest the hive mind correct? Not only that, but he literally stops the DP Karbander from escaping his prison, he withstands psychic tests that literally cause all the other librarians' heads to explode, most chapters regard him as the most powerful librarian in the Astartes, he's spoken with the dead spirit of a Primarch, I mean, his list of psychic feats is almost as great as Dante's list of martial feats.

Yeah, he's top 10 among humans.

But he's still not as strong as some others....

Eisenhorne, Ravenor, Voke, Heldane, Malcador, any GK (not sure where they rank), etc.

Not sure where or how to rank Psykers but I know Mephy is up there near the top of humanity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Irbis wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Again, if space magic exists, rules on what is normal do not exist. Therefor, you can't say what is normal or even possible. Because I have this magic mcguffin over here that allows me to break any rule. See my point?

Point is, what good is all the subtlety of a master assassin when you can literally just use magic?

This is literally as stupid take as claiming existence of Gandalf and Saruman in LotR means battles of Helms deep, Pelennor fields and black gate are pointless because Gandalf can just nuke Witch King with fireball. Or teleport into Mount Doom making Frodo pointless. Or Aragorn has no place in story because Gandalf is older, wiser, and can just cast mind control to make sure no one will ever do bad things again. Magic!

Would the naval fleet lancing the Chaos infested first hive have stopped it? Most likely yes.

Imagine USA nuking Detroit after first riot inside. No, it would most likely cause every single other hive to rebel at once. You don't realize how comical what you said sounds? Especially seeing Hives often have irreplaceable stuff from Dark Age sitting inside so this 'solution' is even dumber than it would be in RL?

If Detroit was the cause of the entire planet turning into daemons or 6 armed mutants, or slaneshi slaves, then yes, nuking Detroit makes sense. Think about the scale here. Detroit is a small cost for saving the entire planet, especially when the specific planet in question is the only place that a super specific and vital weapon is made. I don't think most Imperial leaders would bat an eye at the death of millions to save billions.

I hope that people with your POV never, ever, have a saying on the use of nukes or other WMD... Or else humanity might finally trespass the singularity it has been attempting in the las decades to achive... BUT INTO OBLIVION!!!

Vatsetis wrote:
Dont Nuke Detroit!! ... Cant we just settled on nuking a more hideous city like, I dont know... Vegas or Orlando?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So an inquisitor then. Point is, super John Wick's in Kink outfits with guns are completely pointless in a universe where magic exists. And you're right, Arhiman can't do that. But he's not the upper limit. Mephiston,

I'm sorry but in what world is Mephiston the upper limit?

I mean, he's the only living psker to contest the hive mind correct? Not only that, but he literally stops the DP Karbander from escaping his prison, he withstands psychic tests that literally cause all the other librarians' heads to explode, most chapters regard him as the most powerful librarian in the Astartes, he's spoken with the dead spirit of a Primarch, I mean, his list of psychic feats is almost as great as Dante's list of martial feats.

Yeah, he's top 10 among humans.

But he's still not as strong as some others....

Eisenhorne, Ravenor, Voke, Heldane, Malcador, any GK (not sure where they rank), etc.

Not sure where or how to rank Psykers but I know Mephy is up there near the top of humanity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Irbis wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Again, if space magic exists, rules on what is normal do not exist. Therefor, you can't say what is normal or even possible. Because I have this magic mcguffin over here that allows me to break any rule. See my point?

Point is, what good is all the subtlety of a master assassin when you can literally just use magic?

This is literally as stupid take as claiming existence of Gandalf and Saruman in LotR means battles of Helms deep, Pelennor fields and black gate are pointless because Gandalf can just nuke Witch King with fireball. Or teleport into Mount Doom making Frodo pointless. Or Aragorn has no place in story because Gandalf is older, wiser, and can just cast mind control to make sure no one will ever do bad things again. Magic!

Would the naval fleet lancing the Chaos infested first hive have stopped it? Most likely yes.

Imagine USA nuking Detroit after first riot inside. No, it would most likely cause every single other hive to rebel at once. You don't realize how comical what you said sounds? Especially seeing Hives often have irreplaceable stuff from Dark Age sitting inside so this 'solution' is even dumber than it would be in RL?

If Detroit was the cause of the entire planet turning into daemons or 6 armed mutants, or slaneshi slaves, then yes, nuking Detroit makes sense. Think about the scale here. Detroit is a small cost for saving the entire planet, especially when the specific planet in question is the only place that a super specific and vital weapon is made. I don't think most Imperial leaders would bat an eye at the death of millions to save billions.

I hope that people with your POV never, ever, have a saying on the use of nukes or other WMD... Or else humanity might finally trespass the singularity it has been attempting in the las decades to achive... BUT INTO OBLIVION!!!

I agree, my Led Tasso came out on that last post. I apologize.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So an inquisitor then. Point is, super John Wick's in Kink outfits with guns are completely pointless in a universe where magic exists. And you're right, Arhiman can't do that. But he's not the upper limit. Mephiston,

I'm sorry but in what world is Mephiston the upper limit?

I mean, he's the only living psker to contest the hive mind correct?

You're mistaking him with Tigurius, Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines. He is believed to currently be the most powerful Psyker in the Imperium. Mephy is certainly top 10, but he's not the strongest.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Varro_Tigurius


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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


If Detroit was the cause of the entire planet turning into daemons or 6 armed mutants, or slaneshi slaves, then yes, nuking Detroit makes sense. Think about the scale here. Detroit is a small cost for saving the entire planet, especially when the specific planet in question is the only place that a super specific and vital weapon is made. I don't think most Imperial leaders would bat an eye at the death of millions to save billions.

Such action is of course never taken lightly even by the Imperium.

It is a simple weight of a million deaths to save billions, you save the billions by killing millions.

The Imperium of course will weigh other factors too. If a planet, or specific hive, had something of particular value, like a factory that is the only one that can make X valuable thing, they might decide against exterminatus even if the situation otherwise would call for it.

You weigh the option of taking it back by force. Throwing millions of guardsmen at a problem, which the Imperium has in abundance, vs the chance of those guardsmen spreading corruption once exposed to it when you do get your planet/hive back. How special is that hive/planet? Do you really really NEED that special valuable thing that can only be made there? Is it worth the chance of corruption possibly spreading via the masses of guardsmen who will be exposed through the process of you taking it back?

Maybe it is worth it? You can purge the surviving guardsmen, but some always slip through the cracks... Sometimes it is worth the trouble, sometimes its not and you gotta just Nuke Detroit.

@FezzikDaBullgryn I would argue your point about subterfuge having no place in 40k simply because there are psykers. First of the whole point of removing a threat through assasinations is to preserve the infrastructure. The Imperium does care about its tithes. The damage caused by lancing something from orbit would take years to reconstruct. Of course after something has gone poorly there’s rarely any choice other then to annihilate the threat and in the worst case exterminatus it. To keep the Imperiums economy floating inquisitors have the tools to provide a quick end to a threat before it manifests fully.

As for why psykers aren’t always used, they actually are. It’s rare to find an inquisitor who either isn’t a psyker or who doesn’t have a psyker in their retinue. If a threat can be dealt with directly then yeah, problem solved. Deploy psyker, mind crush, done. It’s rarely so simple though. A psyker commonly makes for a very poor solo operative. Mostly because the moment a psychic mishap happens the cover is blown. In the case that a threat can not be handled directly, deploying a agent that specializes in subterfuge makes perfect sense. This is an organization that routinely deploys grey knights, death watch and the sorotitas. If forces are needed they can certainly be provided. But then why would you waste valuable military resources when a single solo operative specialized for this task can get the job done? Those ships and armies can be off fighting something else. If an assassin fails then yeah, call in the big guns. But then you are just pretty much in the same situation as if the assassin hadn’t been deployed in the first place. If the assassin succeeds great. More resources for the imperium, armies can be used elsewhere, infrastructure remain intact. Don’t think of assassins as a money sink. Think if them as a money saver for other military resources.

As to facing opposing ridiculously strong psykers there’s actually canonical non-culexus ways to deal with it. An example strategy is to through various methods remove an assassins memories. Only having it be activated by very specific stimuli, like maybe the smell of the targets perfume. That way not even a mind reader would be aware they’ve been infiltrated. There’s also null field technology, making you practically invisible to psykers. Of course there’s other methods based on the psyker in question but you probably get the idea. Magic isn’t a fix it all invincible ability.

We are also forgetting an even more potent and less expensive weapon than all of these.

Politics and Threats, implied or otherwise.

In the Book Shadowsword, the Administratum guy who comes to the planet to demand the Imperial Tithe makes a very solemn but effective oath. Reject the Imperial law, accept your fate. That threat alone is far more useful in dissuading dissent than more, colorful methods. Within a single year, the Imperium has begun moving an entire Division to the planet, and destroys most of it.

It's almost like the Mafia.

'Ey, dis is a nice planet you gots here. Be a shame if something happened to it.

And what do you do when the planet says no? You don't invade because then you turn the population against you. You assassinate the governor and replace them with someone more compliant.

 Gert wrote:
And what do you do when the planet says no? You don't invade because then you turn the population against you. You assassinate the governor and replace them with someone more compliant.

Sure because the rogue governor decided to contradict the IOM alone he didnt have any internal or external support.

Killing regional leaders through stealth assasins without futher explanation seems a very viable tactic to achieve compliance.

Vatsetis wrote:
Sure because the rogue governor decided to contradict the IOM alone he didnt have any internal or external support.

Killing regional leaders through stealth assasins without futher explanation seems a very viable tactic to achieve compliance.

There doesn't need to be a further explanation if the Governor gets shot while giving a speech about not paying the tithe by an unseen gunman, or poisoned at a gathering of their allies and the Administratum shows up a couple of days later to install a new leader. Those who allied themselves with the Governor will already be afraid that it was the Imperium that killed their leader for daring to break their oath.
Fear works and assassins are still absolutely a valid and useful tool in the Imperial arsenal.
And as has been mentioned like 10 times already, it's not just rogue Imperials that assassins are used against, a point that conveniently keeps getting ignored.

The other benefit of the assassin organisations is that an inquisitor doesn’t have to micromanage the process. They make the decision and then the responsibility for implementation can be passed over and the inquisitor (or whoever) can go on with dealing with the next thing with a reasonable expectation that the offending person will not be offending (or personing) for much longer. It’s all about delegation

Feel like this has gone off topic slightly

mrFickle wrote:
Feel like this has gone off topic slightly

True, but to be fair, the initial topic was basically answered with, "The fluff is inconsistent, but yes; assassins can potentially win a cage match against a marine."

To be fair, I made some very off topic and dumb statements, but in my defense, someone included DPs in the list of targets an Assassin COULD take down.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

I mean, he's the only living psker to contest the hive mind correct? Not only that, but he literally stops the DP Karbander from escaping his prison, he withstands psychic tests that literally cause all the other librarians' heads to explode, most chapters regard him as the most powerful librarian in the Astartes, he's spoken with the dead spirit of a Primarch, I mean, his list of psychic feats is almost as great as Dante's list of martial feats.

Yeah, he's top 10 among humans.

But he's still not as strong as some others....

Eisenhorne, Ravenor, Voke, Heldane, Malcador, any GK (not sure where they rank), etc.

Not sure where or how to rank Psykers but I know Mephy is up there near the top of humanity.

So much of what you said is wrong it's unreal.

Not only are you confusing Mephiston and Tigurius, but the idea that Eisenhorn is a better psyker than anyone is hilarious. It's actually an in-joke with a buddy of mine that every psyker Eisenhorn encounters is the most powerful psyker he's ever encountered because he's claimed as such multiple times and is universally the underdog any time he encounters another psyker.

Ahriman is also incidentally likely more powerful than any Imperial psyker around, able to force Yvraine (herself an incredibly powerful psyker) and her cohort (including the fething Yncarne) into a subsection of the Webway he sectioned off where she was helpless to stop him, and had to bargain with him to get him to release her by showing she knew how to reverse the Rubric (before backstabbing him of course).

Could you also say that any psyker is sufficiently powerful for the narrative and the author's intent, and there is no real scale? Like, at some point raw power has to give way to skill. For instance, Meph might be stupidly powerful in Darkness in the Blood, but can he do extremely subtle things with his power? Or does he just rely on brute force? Is there any evaluation to skill vs power?

And no, Mephiston is not confused with Tiggy in that quote. Go read Devestation of Baal. He and the other librarians lock themselves in the cave of psyker rocks or whatever, and have a psyker fight with Karbander.

I was absolutely wrong about him contacting the Hive Mind. I admit that.

A fight they lose and one that kills multiple Librarians. And that's all of the Blood Angles and their Successors Librarians BTW, not just like 5 dudes in a cave.

 Gert wrote:
A fight they lose and one that kills multiple Librarians. And that's all of the Blood Angles and their Successors Librarians BTW, not just like 5 dudes in a cave.

Exactly. Mephiston might be fairly strong physically, but not psychically.

No, Mephiston absolutely is a top-tier human(ish) Psyker. But using psychic powers to take on the Daemon that broke his Primarch and has an eternal animosity towards the Blood Angels lineage that also happens to be aligned with the God that really hates sorcery was a really bad plan.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Could you also say that any psyker is sufficiently powerful for the narrative and the author's intent, and there is no real scale? Like, at some point raw power has to give way to skill. For instance, Meph might be stupidly powerful in Darkness in the Blood, but can he do extremely subtle things with his power? Or does he just rely on brute force? Is there any evaluation to skill vs power?

And no, Mephiston is not confused with Tiggy in that quote. Go read Devestation of Baal. He and the other librarians lock themselves in the cave of psyker rocks or whatever, and have a psyker fight with Karbander.

I was absolutely wrong about him contacting the Hive Mind. I admit that.

Yes, skill is definitely a huge part of it. I would actually say that it is the biggest part.

From what I have seen, Psykers kind almost start at full power. It's learning how to control that power that makes the difference between a lower and higher level psyker.

Psychic powers are definitely more in the soft-fantasy realm is terms of how well defined they are. More "A wizard did it" than something a little more concrete and substantial.

 Nerak wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
each new Assassin is a project unto themselves with potentially experimental tweaks at the whim of the Temple.

This can get kind of absurd. Like that time a Callidus was modified with extra arms, along the polymorph, to take the place of a purestrain geenestealer. It had something to do with infiltrating and taking over a gene stealer cult. It’s very silly but also kind of awesome.

I want to read about this, do you know where it's from?

For the sake of your sanity and soul, don't.

Och, its fine.

Meh’lindi, from the very old Inquisition War series with Inquisitor Draco. As with most 40k characters, a bit of a tragic figure.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Meh%27Lindi

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Jaq_Draco

 Insectum7 wrote:


As 40K lacks granularity I'd be interested to see what the Inquisition game, or the RPG has to say about them. But 40K wise, the Assassin is another "transhuman" and one that's always had FAR superior stats than your average marine.

The RPGs Dark Heresy and Deathwatch had the option of player character Vindicere Assassin and Space Marine respectively.

Obviously they had a whole career path so it's not easy to compare directly but yeah: a space marine's S and T bonuses are much higher. The Assassin has a massively higher Ag (agility) and dodge skill and the Temple Assassin trait that lets them evade normally undodgeable attacjs so actually hitting them is nigh impossible.


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From what I have seen, Psykers kind almost start at full power. It's learning how to control that power that makes the difference between a lower and higher level psyker

Not true - psykers do have a wildly varying level of power. There is a recognised 'scale' of psyker potention, given in the RPGs, ranging from Alpha Plus (massive psy potential but humans rarely stay sane - this is Magnus level) to Omega Minus (a pariah not able to survive outside life support).

Ravenous is Gamma, Eisenhorn low Delta.

Remember that this doesn't include 'unnatural' (if that's the right word!) Enhancement like demonic sorcery, runes, psibooster tech, etc.

Ahriman would *probably* be alpha without the helm of amon, black staff and assorted pacts, grimoires and so on but with them he's into "what happened to physics?" levels.

Was the thing with "Mother gullet" a canonized work, or just a passing reference in a codex? I mean, their ability is demonstrated in several books, it's almost inhuman. But I don't want to start another tangent.

locarno24 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Could you also say that any psyker is sufficiently powerful for the narrative and the author's intent, and there is no real scale? Like, at some point raw power has to give way to skill. For instance, Meph might be stupidly powerful in Darkness in the Blood, but can he do extremely subtle things with his power? Or does he just rely on brute force? Is there any evaluation to skill vs power?

From what I have seen, Psykers kind almost start at full power. It's learning how to control that power that makes the difference between a lower and higher level psyker.

Psychic powers are definitely more in the soft-fantasy realm is terms of how well defined they are. More "A wizard did it" than something a little more concrete and substantial.

Not true - psykers do have a wildly varying level of power. There is a recognised 'scale' of psyker potention, given in the RPGs, ranging from Alpha Plus (massive psy potential but humans rarely stay sane - this is Magnus level) to Omega Minus (a pariah not able to survive outside life support).

Pretty sure that’s not what Grey meant; I believe the idea was that, whatever potential the psyker has, they have it from the moment they Awaken. Psykers don’t so much “level up” in terms of the raw power they can fling about but increase in skill and control. That is, a Delta will always be a Delta but can go from throwing raw warp energy around like a flamethrower to much more focused and controlled mind-bullets. Kinda like sticking your thumb over a hosepipe without changing the tap.

In fact I’m pretty sure that psykers who actually increase their power potential are incredibly suspicious to the inquisition because that is one of the primary signs of Sorcery. Which is why Eisenhorn got investigated after he picked up that nifty Blackstone staff of his - while he’s holding it he’s actually a mid-gamma level.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Was the thing with "Mother gullet" a canonized work, or just a passing reference in a codex? I mean, their ability is demonstrated in several books, it's almost inhuman. But I don't want to start another tangent.

I’ve only seen the original story in the codex and it’s actually quite short.

Exactly. A psyker always has the full potential of their abilities. IE: Training cannot make them more powerful than they actually are. It can only make what they have more useful and/or more controlled.

Its not like other magic systems where you start off and can fling little electric sparks, but nothing more dangerous than that till you "level up" and gain more power. Instead, you start with the power to fry and whole city. But over time you learn to control it in more precise ways so you can destroy specific targets instead of whole cities, because collateral damage is bad.

This is also why a psyker awakening out in "the wild" is incredibly bad in the Imperium. Someone who suddenly has so much power they have no idea how to control inevitably leads to a lot of damage and destruction, and likely daemonic possession of the psyker's untrained mind. You need to find these guys before they awaken so they can be taken to Terra to be trained and soulbound to the Emperor, or sacrificed if they are too weak to be of use.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Exactly. A psyker always has the full potential of their abilities. IE: Training cannot make them more powerful than they actually are. It can only make what they have more useful and/or more controlled.

Its not like other magic systems where you start off and can fling little electric sparks, but nothing more dangerous than that till you "level up" and gain more power. Instead, you start with the power to fry and whole city. But over time you learn to control it in more precise ways so you can destroy specific targets instead of whole cities, because collateral damage is bad.

This is also why a psyker awakening out in "the wild" is incredibly bad in the Imperium. Someone who suddenly has so much power they have no idea how to control inevitably leads to a lot of damage and destruction, and likely daemonic possession of the psyker's untrained mind. You need to find these guys before they awaken so they can be taken to Terra to be trained and soulbound to the Emperor, or sacrificed if they are too weak to be of use.

From an holistic POV every human (not only 40k psykers) starts at full potential and only trains to use and control such potential in an efficient manner.

The film Gattaca explains this in a masterfull manner.

Destiny and Free Will are just a matter of perspective.

But then GW or BL can always introduce a Mcguffin that "Exponentially magnifies the power" of a psyker, for instance, Eisenhorns special rod, or Ravenor's Chair, or a Librarian's Hood.

Yes, psykers are always at full power, but GW can write around that. All it takes is one short story where an old hermit touches the head of a young psyker, and hey presto, POTENTIAL UNLOCKED! The young boy is now the ALPHA Psyker, or some stupid nonsense.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I thought one of the big rules of Background is that we don't bring table top into fluff discussions. As such, all in game rules and stats are pointless. They don't indicate what a unit is truly able to do, or not do. A Calladius CAN kill Dante, or Jain Zar and Asurmen, Drazhar, and even Trajaan Valoris. Is anyone here really going to argue that Trajaan and Drazhar are not as good at fighting as one of them?

Keeping stats out of a fluff discussion is not something that I'm going to honor. Stats are a another set of data points in terms of judging relative capabilities, especially when relative stats have a measure of consistency (for decades in this case). Also, remembering that (especially in the old days) the game designers themselves were the drivers of the universe creation. Like, I'm going to take the opinion of Andy Chambers or Rick Priestly a lot more seriously than some hack writer writing a BL novel years later. Plus you yourself have already maintained that the narratives in BL aren't exactly consistent either. So if there's a measure of consistency in game stats and rules interactions, and there isn't in the novels, then stats look like a good thing to go by.

Additionally, it's important to recall that narratives are often not going by the "average" sort of scenario, but the extraordinary ones. A lot of the time even those extraordinary scenarios can be played out in a game using the rules and stats, it's just that the author essentially gets to pick what numbers come up on the dice.

The thing is, throughout the editions, Assassins have consistently held stats roughly on par with Space Marine Captains. Sometimes fewer wounds, (sometimes more), and always trending as faster.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
To be fair, I made some very off topic and dumb statements, but in my defense, someone included DPs in the list of targets an Assassin COULD take down.

If you're referring to my quote I specifically said that a Daemon Prince was on the list of things that would beat an Assassin.

Edit: Buuuuuuuut . . . A Culexus Assassin is specifically crippling to psykers, and many Daemon Princes are psykers. I think how that relationship manifests tends to vary, but it's important to keep in mind.

locarno24 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

As 40K lacks granularity I'd be interested to see what the Inquisition game, or the RPG has to say about them. But 40K wise, the Assassin is another "transhuman" and one that's always had FAR superior stats than your average marine.

The RPGs Dark Heresy and Deathwatch had the option of player character Vindicere Assassin and Space Marine respectively.

Obviously they had a whole career path so it's not easy to compare directly but yeah: a space marine's S and T bonuses are much higher. The Assassin has a massively higher Ag (agility) and dodge skill and the Temple Assassin trait that lets them evade normally undodgeable attacjs so actually hitting them is nigh impossible.

^That's interesting info, thanks for posting that.

Yeah there's not just the basic stats comparisons but also how they interact within the game mechanics. As you say the Space Marine might be stronger and tougher in that system (40Ks not known for granularity), but if the Assassin is using the mechanics of that system to just not get hit in the first place, that's another good data point.

Eversors do not explode as a last ditch attempt to finish the mission, they explode as the massive cocktails of chemicals in their body no longer has the functioning organs of the body keeping it from self detonating. If that were the case they could choose to explode, they would give all assassins the option.

Assassins were mega strong on the tabletop and in the lore back in second edition. The Callidus actually defeated Konrad Curze back then... They have been toned down somewhat in the lore since then.

I thought the Curze thing was slightly more nuanced than "He lost."

Ala, Guilliman beat up Mortarion, but GMan is NOT stronger than Mortarion. Mortarion was fighting both Gman, and the Emperor literally manifesting inside Gman.

In any event, every fluff fight 1v1 in 40k has a big fat asterisk next to it.

Curze knew that the assassin was coming and allowed her to kill him because he already knew she would due to his prescience

Not sure what the 2nd Ed stuff was but for as long as I've been about in 40k, Curze did do a little fight with M'shen but then let himself be killed to prove his system of punishing those who did bad things was justified. His death punished him for the acts he committed as commander of the 8th Legion during the Crusade and Heresy. Curze's philosophy that so many within the Imperium decried as barbaric was vindicated when the Imperium did it to him.

Assassins are incredibly powerful. I would wage that an assassin could go toe to toe with a custode and be evenly matched.

In the book Nemisis an evesor assassin was killing space marines pretty effortlessly, and ended up killing several dozen before he suicide bombed a bunch of them.

Caldus and celuxus are the same.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Assassins are incredibly powerful. I would wage that an assassin could go toe to toe with a custode and be evenly matched.

In the book Nemisis an evesor assassin was killing space marines pretty effortlessly, and ended up killing several dozen before he suicide bombed a bunch of them.

Caldus and celuxus are the same.

Yeah, no. Custodes are a not space marines in Gold, they are more than capable of defeating assassins.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Assassins are incredibly powerful. I would wage that an assassin could go toe to toe with a custode and be evenly matched.

In the book Nemisis an evesor assassin was killing space marines pretty effortlessly, and ended up killing several dozen before he suicide bombed a bunch of them.

Caldus and celuxus are the same.

Yeah, no. Custodes are a not space marines in Gold, they are more than capable of defeating assassins.

The stats say otherwise, Custodes and Assassins look pretty evenly matched.

Assasins are pretty much the peak of IOM bio engineering... Apart from named charecters, perhaps only custodes can match them.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Assassins are incredibly powerful. I would wage that an assassin could go toe to toe with a custode and be evenly matched.

In the book Nemisis an evesor assassin was killing space marines pretty effortlessly, and ended up killing several dozen before he suicide bombed a bunch of them.

Caldus and celuxus are the same.

Yeah, no. Custodes are a not space marines in Gold, they are more than capable of defeating assassins.

Other than your head canon, you're going to need to provide some evidence for this - and it is worth noting that the performance between a Custodes and assassins from different Temples is going to differ.

Though I do think it would be odd for an Imperial Assassin to be dispatched after a Custodes in the first place.

Off the top of my head...

- Callidus - Close, but I probably give it to the Custodes. Strong enough will to resist the neural shredder, but the Callidus' phase blade probably gets through Custodes armour reasonably well.
- Culexus - Off the top of my head, there aren't psychic Custodes, so there's little reason to deploy a Culexus against them. The amped-up Pariah/Null gene of the Culexus probably allows them to evade the Custodes , but on the flip side, the Animus Speculum is never going to get powered up by the target being a psyker. I suspect that this fight just doesn't end up happening.
- Eversor - Score draw? Everybody dies, I reckon.
- Vanus - As I've mentioned before, I don't know enough about how they operate to speculate on this.
- Venenum - Certainly possible that they could have poisons that work on the Custodes, but this is also an area that falls into "Who knows?"
- Vindicare - Super-patient master snipers with access to custom rounds depending on the target? I give this one to the Vindicare, as it will be nothing like a 1-on-1 duel - but I accept it may well need to be "1 shot, 1 kill"

 Insectum7 wrote:
The stats say otherwise, Custodes and Assassins look pretty evenly matched.

I thought we all agreed, for the purposes of this thread, that in-game stats are not necessarily a reflection of actual combat ability in the fluff. If that were the case, individual Marines would be worth 20 guardsmen, not 3. Thing is, a game where one side outnumbers the other 20 to 1 wouldn't be fun for either player, even if it were balanced.


I'm curious how a Callidus would fare against a Solitaire or a Succubus in a fair fight... but then again, the whole purpose of an assassin is to avoid fair fights.

.

-Guardsman- wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
The stats say otherwise, Custodes and Assassins look pretty evenly matched.

I thought we all agreed, for the purposes of this thread, that in-game stats are not necessarily a reflection of actual combat ability in the fluff. If that were the case, individual Marines would be worth 20 guardsmen, not 3. Thing is, a game where one side outnumbers the other 20 to 1 wouldn't be fun for either player, even if it were balanced.


I'm curious how a Callidus would fare against a Solitaire or a Succubus in a fair fight... but then again, the whole purpose of an assassin is to avoid fair fights.

.

Solitaires would be an equal fight probably; the solitaire is faster but weaker while the Callidus has weapons based on C’tan necrodermis so it probably hates Eldar on a molecular level. Any succubus other than the Dark Muse herself should be paste though.

-Guardsman- wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
The stats say otherwise, Custodes and Assassins look pretty evenly matched.

I thought we all agreed, for the purposes of this thread, that in-game stats are not necessarily a reflection of actual combat ability in the fluff. If that were the case, individual Marines would be worth 20 guardsmen, not 3. Thing is, a game where one side outnumbers the other 20 to 1 wouldn't be fun for either player, even if it were balanced.

Well, I for one do not agree.

Also, I'd argue that in many cases the stats are more reflective of combat ability than many people think of them, although it waxes and wanes a bit from edition to edition. When you say 20-1 Marines vs. Guard is right, first, how do you come to that conclusion? 2nd, how does the context of that statement reflect itself on the tabletop? Has it changed over time in any way? Are you looking at points comparisons or other comparisons?

Did you know that it currently takes (prior to whatever their recent dumb buff was) about 20 Guardsmen, Rapid Firing, to kill a Marine? How does that reflect 20-1? If that Marine is in cover, the number is closer to 40.

Many people absolutely love how Marines were portrayed in Astartes. However, note that in Astartes Marines were shown taking on hordes of GEQs. . . mostly only by engaging them in small groups at a time, in the dark and often concealed with some smoke (which Marines can see clearly in-through). 5 Marines weren't just standing in a field and moving down (by your 20-1 number) 100 GEQs and coming out victorious, now were they?

In past editions, when Morale rules were being used, it was possible (and I have done) to have 5 Marines defeat 30 Guardsmen in a single turn, through using the right equipment and being in the right place at the right time. But does this mean those Marines should have been each priced at eight times what a single Guardsman cost?

Marines in the fluff do what they do because for narrative purposes, the author essentially gets to choose the context of each engagement, and what the dice rolls are. These "20-1 Marines" are acting on their initiative, defining the context of the engagement, engaging armies from advantageous positions or engaging small portions of the enemy at a time. More importantly, they're not starting their engagement parked in front of a half company of anti-MEQ specialized main battle tanks with plasma-toting Stormtroopers in drop-reserve (for example). A LOT of what's been written about how awesome Marines are is actually quite doable with the relative stats on the tabletop. The issue on the table is that the player is not the sole author, and the tabletop scenarios are just generally contrived.

While editions of the game change the balances of things somewhat, when you have a whole history of stat-relationships that goes back a couple decades, the case for the applicable use of stats gets stronger. Stat-wise, an Assassin has always been Space Marine Captain level or rough equivalent (or even better). Peak-modded-human levels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dysartes wrote:

- Eversor - Score draw? Everybody dies, I reckon.

Eversor wins, no question about it. The Eversor is specifically engineered to be a combat monster, and will just stim up himself with drug implants to get the job done if it has to.

Assassin vs Custodes is just….never going to happen.

Remember not just who, but what Custodes are. The hand, voice and bodyguard of The Emperor.

The Master of Assassins is a High Lord of Terra. So hardly likely to sanction such a hit. On account there are lots of Custodes, who would want……ah…..a “polite word”, even if the Assassin succeeds. That could bring down not just that High Lord, but the Temples as a whole. On account Custards don’t take kindly to treachery.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Assassin vs Custodes is just….never going to happen.

Remember not just who, but what Custodes are. The hand, voice and bodyguard of The Emperor.

The Master of Assassins is a High Lord of Terra. So hardly likely to sanction such a hit. On account there are lots of Custodes, who would want……ah…..a “polite word”, even if the Assassin succeeds. That could bring down not just that High Lord, but the Temples as a whole. On account Custards don’t take kindly to treachery.

Counterpoint: Eversors in particular are noted to be a bit "unhinged". If a Custodes was somehow in between an eversor and its target . . .

Then whomever authorised the deployment of the Eversor is still in for a bad day.

They’re doomsday weapons, one you unleash, cross fingers and hope for the best with.

It’s also possible part of their hypno-indoctrination includes some form of IFF for just such eventualities. After all, should their deployment pod be off target, or friendlies advance faster than expected, you’d rather the Eversor kept at the enemy, and didn’t go on a little rampage through your own lines. Not because your men aren’t disposable. But because you’d always wants the Eversor kicking the right arses.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Then whomever authorised the deployment of the Eversor is still in for a bad day.

They’re doomsday weapons, one you unleash, cross fingers and hope for the best with.

It’s also possible part of their hypno-indoctrination includes some form of IFF for just such eventualities. After all, should their deployment pod be off target, or friendlies advance faster than expected, you’d rather the Eversor kept at the enemy, and didn’t go on a little rampage through your own lines. Not because your men aren’t disposable. But because you’d always wants the Eversor kicking the right arses.

Oh come now, Grotsnik. What's more grimdark than your super assassin accidentally working it's way through allied lines? 40k at it's finest Imo.

The one key psychological affect that gets you, junior Assassin cadet, shunted into the Eversor Programme, is fanatical devotion to the Emperor - mad lads they might be, but they are the special kind of mad you only get with religion. I suspect that even in the depths of a Frenzon rage, finding themselves in the presence of any being that’s spent a century or so in the personal presence of Him on Terra would stop them in their tracks. Possibly even without IFF tags or the iconic armour.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Assassin vs Custodes is just….never going to happen.

Remember not just who, but what Custodes are. The hand, voice and bodyguard of The Emperor.

The Master of Assassins is a High Lord of Terra. So hardly likely to sanction such a hit. On account there are lots of Custodes, who would want……ah…..a “polite word”, even if the Assassin succeeds. That could bring down not just that High Lord, but the Temples as a whole. On account Custards don’t take kindly to treachery.

Isn’t this assuming a series amount of loyalty, togetherness and patriotism. Where as the high lords of terror are manipulative, selfish, power seeking psychos who have no sense of patriotism or concern for others and will happily turn on each other if it’s in their benefit.

I like to imagine the inner chambers of the imperium as working a bit like the wizards in the early dis world books where assassination of one’s superiors is usual as long as you aren’t crude enough to get caught. But sci do and grim dark

The difference between manipulating the other High Lords or Imperial nobility and the Custodes is quite big.
The High Lords and nobles of the Imperium bicker, fight, and plot against each other all the time. That is an accepted fact. In fact, they all like it and see it as a distraction to their actual jobs.
Plotting or fighting against the guardians and companions of the Emperor is a big no-no, not just from a political standpoint but a religious standpoint as well. They're the companions of the God Emperor, His confidants, and most ardent defenders. Attacking the Custodes is akin to attacking the Emperor. The thing is, the Custodes generally don't care about what the Imperium does. Unless Terra is really threatened by an outside power they're content to just let the wheels turn. They didn't act during the Beheading or its aftermath and only got involved with the Age of Apostasy at the last minute when things got quite out of hand.

It's funny. Countless times we are shown that an astartes can move faster than a base human can react. Like, the Video series Astartes as an example. Which is canon fluff now. Given that Custodes are an order of magnitude beyond that in terms of speed, skill, and strength, it seems they would eclipse even the most well designed and fluffed out human without even a second's thought. Hell, Valaryian takes down a couple Primaris in the span of several heart beats, about 2-3 seconds. With out even breaking a sweat. That means he's moving too fast for even them to react.

And about the Succubus vs whatever, doesn't the Dark Eldar Drazhaar(sp) guy have a literal throne made of Custodes skin or body parts?

 Mr_Rose wrote:
The one key psychological affect that gets you, junior Assassin cadet, shunted into the Eversor Programme, is fanatical devotion to the Emperor - mad lads they might be, but they are the special kind of mad you only get with religion. I suspect that even in the depths of a Frenzon rage, finding themselves in the presence of any being that’s spent a century or so in the personal presence of Him on Terra would stop them in their tracks. Possibly even without IFF tags or the iconic armour.

Source?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's funny. Countless times we are shown that an astartes can move faster than a base human can react. Like, the Video series Astartes as an example. Which is canon fluff now. Given that Custodes are an order of magnitude beyond that in terms of speed, skill, and strength, it seems they would eclipse even the most well designed and fluffed out human without even a second's thought. Hell, Valaryian takes down a couple Primaris in the span of several heart beats, about 2-3 seconds. With out even breaking a sweat. That means he's moving too fast for even them to react.

And about the Succubus vs whatever, doesn't the Dark Eldar Drazhaar(sp) guy have a literal throne made of Custodes skin or body parts?

Custodes are also "well designed and fluffed out humans". As are Astartes. As are Assassins.

So we are either doing stats or not. But to imply a custodian is just the same as an astartes or an assassin is odd and wrong. Custodes are a breed of being singularly created by the Emperor to guard him and be his friend. You cannot say the same about Assassins or Astartes. Even Primarchs don't have that claim. Primarchs were never his friend, they were his tools. Custodians were his "bodymen" to put it crudely. There to be able to meet his wants and needs for anything, but also capable of discussing theory, philosophy, lore, and strategy at his level. To think that a Eversor could hold a conversation with the emperor is laughable.

I thought this thread was about the combat abilities of assassins, not whether they could talk a Custard into bed…

Although I wouldn’t put it past a Callidus to be able to, as infiltration is kind of what they are for.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So we are either doing stats or not. But to imply a custodian is just the same as an astartes or an assassin is odd and wrong. Custodes are a breed of being singularly created by the Emperor to guard him and be his friend. You cannot say the same about Assassins or Astartes. Even Primarchs don't have that claim. Primarchs were never his friend, they were his tools. Custodians were his "bodymen" to put it crudely. There to be able to meet his wants and needs for anything, but also capable of discussing theory, philosophy, lore, and strategy at his level. To think that a Eversor could hold a conversation with the emperor is laughable.

None of that is addressing the point, which is that all of them are modified humans. They may be modified differently, to different extents and for different purposes, and one can flourish the language about the "Emperors friends" the Custodes all you like, but they are still all modified humans.

And yes I'm going to use stats because they are still a data point.

 Insectum7 wrote:
None of that is addressing the point, which is that all of them are modified humans. They may be modified differently, to different extents and for different purposes, and one can flourish the language about the "Emperors friends" the Custodes all you like, but they are still all modified humans.

Modified humans that are vastly superior to all the other modified humans. A Guardsman with a bionic arm is a modified human but they are nowhere near the equal of a Custodian, which I believe is the point Fezz is trying to make. Assassins are genetically engineered killers, yes, but a one-on-one with a Custodian would be a serious challenge despite gene enhancements, shapeshifting abilities, or anti-Psyker powers. I mean for the Culexeus especially its abilities are going to be far more useless when fighting a warrior from an organisation that is paired to fight alongside large groups of Pariahs.

And yes I'm going to use stats because they are still a data point.

In-game stats routinely don't align with the background. For 8 editions of 40k Space Marines were the same wounds characteristic as Guardsmen despite being much tougher and less likely to take serious damage in the background. They are also only one Toughness point higher as well. If you really want to use stats then you'd be better off using the stat lines and character profiles from something like Dark Heresy where Marines actually do feel that massive step up from baseline humans.

The same Dark Heresy game where one can tank an autocanon round to the face as a regular human and live? Or get headshotted by a Multi-Melta and live?

Meh. TT stats are good enough to draw broad comparision. Marines are better than Guardsmen, but they're far from an unbeatable foe. The numbers might not align perfectly, but they're good enough.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The same Dark Heresy game where one can tank an autocanon round to the face as a regular human and live? Or get headshotted by a Multi-Melta and live?

Things that did not happen for a thousand.

The Multi-Melta with 4d10+12 Pen 12 will go through every suit of armor in the game and with most characters having maybe a 3 for their toughness bonus means they will only be shrugging off 3 damage. 3 damage on an average roll of 22+12. Most human characters will probably never get over 15 wounds.

The Autocannon, having 3 shots at 3d10+8 Pen 6 is also pretty much guaranteed to completely delete the normal human it shoots at.



*Unless you burnt those fate points to not die.

The only way a Dark Heresy character can survive a hit from either of those weapons is if they are in Power armor, have a refractor field, and/or most critically the weapon rolls really really badly for damage. And even minimum damage of 16 for the MM is going to at least drop a full health character down to very low if not drop them into critical damage. Good luck for even a max level Adept to survive that.

You CAN get over 20 wounds for certain careers, but only for nearly maxed out characters. Starting characters are not going to have anywhere close to that. Autocannons will one-shot nearly all characters below rank 4 assuming you didn't somehow get power armor or a refractor field.

Well it was in Only War, but I did the math, and it checked out, for the Multi-Melta, anyway (2d10+16 Pen 12). The Autocannon shot actually happened, the same character also took a Krak Grenade and lived.

I assumed both systems were close enough. My character had 50 Toughness with a bunch of talents that helped with damage mitigation

Weapons are mostly* all the same across the systems, they're totally interchangable.

50 toughness does help a lot, but again I suspect the Autocannon rolled really badly for damage. Even with damage mitigating talents a full damage autocannon hit would splat you. Which is fine, it was just a glancing hit that barely touched the skull. Still left the character on barely any wounds I suspect.

Krak Grenades are only 2D10+4, so they are lot more survivable. You're not going to be feeling very well, and there is still the very high probability of you going from full to critical damage. So lets not pretend like you can shrug these off like its nothing. .

50 T, Wounds in the 20's (I want to say 25, but it's been a while). An autocannon rolling average damage would put you in critical, but not out of action.

All this to say, Only War/DH gets silly too, with stats, and taking that and claiming it's a better representation of lore than the TT is silly.

Yes, exactly. You can survive an autocannon hit, but its never going to be nothing. You're not shrugging it off like a lasgun hit.

But I suspect your character might have been an Ogryn unless you were all extremely high level.

Noone should walk off a direct autocanon hit is my point, it's an issue on the TT, too, granted, but an average roll with the gun will kill folks.

High level Stormtrooper. The Heavy Weapon guy was tougher, even. To the the point where Orks couldn't hurt him at all after he got hit carapace armor. Maybe the DM was too generous with XP, maybe we did something wrong, but we became pretty strong as a group.

 Gert wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
None of that is addressing the point, which is that all of them are modified humans. They may be modified differently, to different extents and for different purposes, and one can flourish the language about the "Emperors friends" the Custodes all you like, but they are still all modified humans.

Modified humans that are vastly superior to all the other modified humans. A Guardsman with a bionic arm is a modified human but they are nowhere near the equal of a Custodian, which I believe is the point Fezz is trying to make. Assassins are genetically engineered killers, yes, but a one-on-one with a Custodian would be a serious challenge despite gene enhancements, shapeshifting abilities, or anti-Psyker powers. I mean for the Culexeus especially its abilities are going to be far more useless when fighting a warrior from an organisation that is paired to fight alongside large groups of Pariahs.

Assassins are also modified humans which are vastly superior to other humans, and have been since at least 2nd edition. The Custodes might be a challenging target, sure, but the Assassin will also be a challenging target for the Custodes, and I'd probably give the edge to the Assassin in most cases. If they're both stuck in a small room, the I'd say the Custodes has an advantage, since the Assassin won't be able to use their greater speed to full advantage. This is the unequipped cage match scenario. Once the Custodes get's their armor and weapons, that's a huge boost to the Custodes obviously, and then it'll depend on how the Assassin themselves is geared up.

But the above is excluding the Eversor. Imo Everson wins pretty easily.

 Gert wrote:

And yes I'm going to use stats because they are still a data point.

In-game stats routinely don't align with the background. For 8 editions of 40k Space Marines were the same wounds characteristic as Guardsmen despite being much tougher and less likely to take serious damage in the background. They are also only one Toughness point higher as well. If you really want to use stats then you'd be better off using the stat lines and character profiles from something like Dark Heresy where Marines actually do feel that massive step up from baseline humans.

In game 1w Marines have been much tougher than Guardsmen as well. The reason you may not feel it's the case is because people stack their armies with lots of anti-MEQ firepower, because they expect to be fighting against Space Marines. Even in the 1W days, it took 18 Lasgun shots to down a Marine, and I think that lines up with the background just fine. If you step it back to the AP days, as soon as you hit AP5 or better, you'll find that the toughness of Guardsmen in comparison to Space Marines goes way down even further, until you get up to specifically anti-MEQ weapons which treat both targets the same because they're so powerful. Also, reminder that in-game casualties do not necessarily mean dead. A Marine is far more likely to survive many injuries over a guardsman. So even though a Plasmagun might have incapacitated a Marine, he might be able to pick himself up after the battle is over while the Guardsman might be a pile of ash and goo.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Gert wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
None of that is addressing the point, which is that all of them are modified humans. They may be modified differently, to different extents and for different purposes, and one can flourish the language about the "Emperors friends" the Custodes all you like, but they are still all modified humans.

Modified humans that are vastly superior to all the other modified humans. A Guardsman with a bionic arm is a modified human but they are nowhere near the equal of a Custodian, which I believe is the point Fezz is trying to make. Assassins are genetically engineered killers, yes, but a one-on-one with a Custodian would be a serious challenge despite gene enhancements, shapeshifting abilities, or anti-Psyker powers. I mean for the Culexeus especially its abilities are going to be far more useless when fighting a warrior from an organisation that is paired to fight alongside large groups of Pariahs.

Assassins are also modified humans which are vastly superior to other humans, and have been since at least 2nd edition. The Custodes might be a challenging target, sure, but the Assassin will also be a challenging target for the Custodes, and I'd probably give the edge to the Assassin in most cases. If they're both stuck in a small room, the I'd say the Custodes has an advantage, since the Assassin won't be able to use their greater speed to full advantage. This is the unequipped cage match scenario. Once the Custodes get's their armor and weapons, that's a huge boost to the Custodes obviously, and then it'll depend on how the Assassin themselves is geared up.

But the above is excluding the Eversor. Imo Everson wins pretty easily.

 Gert wrote:

And yes I'm going to use stats because they are still a data point.

In-game stats routinely don't align with the background. For 8 editions of 40k Space Marines were the same wounds characteristic as Guardsmen despite being much tougher and less likely to take serious damage in the background. They are also only one Toughness point higher as well. If you really want to use stats then you'd be better off using the stat lines and character profiles from something like Dark Heresy where Marines actually do feel that massive step up from baseline humans.

In game 1w Marines have been much tougher than Guardsmen as well. The reason you may not feel it's the case is because people stack their armies with lots of anti-MEQ firepower, because they expect to be fighting against Space Marines. Even in the 1W days, it took 18 Lasgun shots to down a Marine, and I think that lines up with the background just fine. If you step it back to the AP days, as soon as you hit AP5 or better, you'll find that the toughness of Guardsmen in comparison to Space Marines goes way down even further, until you get up to specifically anti-MEQ weapons which treat both targets the same because they're so powerful. Also, reminder that in-game casualties do not necessarily mean dead. A Marine is far more likely to survive many injuries over a guardsman. So even though a Plasmagun might have incapacitated a Marine, he might be able to pick himself up after the battle is over while the Guardsman might be a pile of ash and goo.

So I seriously thought it was a rule that no stats or ingame performance be used on this sub forum. I apologize for my misunderstanding.

As to your point regarding their level of "modification" that's like saying a Ford Fiesta is the same as a Maserati F1 race car because they "doors and wheels". The fact that the assassins have modifications is not in question. It's the state to which those modifications allow them to perform. A single Custodian is literally a match for most things in the galaxy, including heavy vehicles. It's never been revealed except in the barest rumors and head canon what assassins are capable of. We don't know if the Exitus Rifle needs to be re-tooled after every 13th shot, or if Executioner rounds literally make the weapon impossible to fire after 3 shots. We don't know if "bio-meltdown" takes 10-20 seconds, or if it's instantaneous. We don't know if the Calladius needs time to shift form, or if doing it multiple times quickly causes them to literally turn to goo. We do know that a single squad Custodians were literally capable of taking on and defeating a Chaos band in one of the new DoW books, essentially without support. We know that a single group with a band of sisters stormed and killed almost the entire heretic astartes crew of a Battleship. We know that they are capable of defeating blood thirsters, and Daemon princes.

I feel like you are just doing this to hate on a single faction.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So I seriously thought it was a rule that no stats or ingame performance be used on this sub forum. I apologize for my misunderstanding.

As to your point regarding their level of "modification" that's like saying a Ford Fiesta is the same as a Maserati F1 race car because they "doors and wheels". The fact that the assassins have modifications is not in question. It's the state to which those modifications allow them to perform. A single Custodian is literally a match for most things in the galaxy, including heavy vehicles. It's never been revealed except in the barest rumors and head canon what assassins are capable of. We don't know if the Exitus Rifle needs to be re-tooled after every 13th shot, or if Executioner rounds literally make the weapon impossible to fire after 3 shots. We don't know if "bio-meltdown" takes 10-20 seconds, or if it's instantaneous. We don't know if the Calladius needs time to shift form, or if doing it multiple times quickly causes them to literally turn to goo. We do know that a single squad Custodians were literally capable of taking on and defeating a Chaos band in one of the new DoW books, essentially without support. We know that a single group with a band of sisters stormed and killed almost the entire heretic astartes crew of a Battleship. We know that they are capable of defeating blood thirsters, and Daemon princes.

I feel like you are just doing this to hate on a single faction.

It's your own admission that the capabilities described in novels are all over the place. And even a single human can be a match for heavy vehicles with some well placed Meltabombs.

And it has been revealed what Assassins are capable of, in multiple games and for 25+ years. Assassins are heavily modified humans capable of going toe-to-toe with Space Marine Captains. I'm not hating on a faction (although Custodes are the Mary-Suiest of the Mary-Sues it seems), I'm just looking at the data.

And this: "A single Custodian is literally a match for most things in the galaxy". Given that most things in the Galaxy are Orks, Necrons, Gaunts and Humans, sure. So what are we talking here? A Custodes should beat a Bloodthirster in a 1v1 duel?

 Insectum7 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So I seriously thought it was a rule that no stats or ingame performance be used on this sub forum. I apologize for my misunderstanding.

As to your point regarding their level of "modification" that's like saying a Ford Fiesta is the same as a Maserati F1 race car because they "doors and wheels". The fact that the assassins have modifications is not in question. It's the state to which those modifications allow them to perform. A single Custodian is literally a match for most things in the galaxy, including heavy vehicles. It's never been revealed except in the barest rumors and head canon what assassins are capable of. We don't know if the Exitus Rifle needs to be re-tooled after every 13th shot, or if Executioner rounds literally make the weapon impossible to fire after 3 shots. We don't know if "bio-meltdown" takes 10-20 seconds, or if it's instantaneous. We don't know if the Calladius needs time to shift form, or if doing it multiple times quickly causes them to literally turn to goo. We do know that a single squad Custodians were literally capable of taking on and defeating a Chaos band in one of the new DoW books, essentially without support. We know that a single group with a band of sisters stormed and killed almost the entire heretic astartes crew of a Battleship. We know that they are capable of defeating blood thirsters, and Daemon princes.

I feel like you are just doing this to hate on a single faction.

It's your own admission that the capabilities described in novels are all over the place. And even a single human can be a match for heavy vehicles with some well placed Meltabombs.

And it has been revealed what Assassins are capable of, in multiple games and for 25+ years. Assassins are heavily modified humans capable of going toe-to-toe with Space Marine Captains. I'm not hating on a faction (although Custodes are the Mary-Suiest of the Mary-Sues it seems), I'm just looking at the data.

And this: "A single Custodian is literally a match for most things in the galaxy". Given that most things in the Galaxy are Orks, Necrons, Gaunts and Humans, sure. So what are we talking here? A Custodes should beat a Bloodthirster in a 1v1 duel?

Yes, as has been done in the past. Valdor was capable of it. As is Trajaan. If you are going by strictly fluff here, I can't tell because you go back and forth. Also, a DP is not "most things in the galaxy". DP popping onto battlefields are about the same level of probobility that a Custodian pops up and starts fighting the bads. They are both supremely unlikely. So I put DP on the "not most things" category.

Well then are the Characters Valdor and Trajaan representative of ALL Custodes? Because I'd wager not. Either way it's not very informative, you're saying both these guys destroyed heavy vehicles? How? Did they pick them up over their shoulders and toss them over a cliff? Did they wedge their weapon into a track link and immobilize it before stabbing into a fuel tank? You're leaving out a whole bunch of stuff here.

Eversor Assassins carry Meltabombs, so I guess they can kill tanks too. No biggie. A Space Marine with a Powerfist can kill a vehicle.

Are you being purposefully obtuse? All I am saying is that fluff wise, Custodes are not equal to anything on the imperium. Even a knight commander wouldn't dare to FAFO with the Guardians of the Emperor. But please, continue to twist words, and be a hater. Show me on the Great unclean one plushie where the Custodes hurt you.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Are you being purposefully obtuse? All I am saying is that fluff wise, Custodes are not equal to anything on the imperium. Even a knight commander wouldn't dare to FAFO with the Guardians of the Emperor. But please, continue to twist words, and be a hater. Show me on the Great unclean one plushie where the Custodes hurt you.

Wat?

So to be clear, you appear to be saying that ALL Custodes are Trajaan-level-power in the fluff. . . but also have said earlier that "It entirely depends on who is writing the book". You say that Trajaan has killed "heavy vehicles" in some source. My question is HOW, because there's no useable information without a HOW. A guardsman can blow up a vehicle with a Meltabomb. Terminators carry Chainfists as standard equipment. Killing a vehicle isn't necessarily that impressive. The HOW matters.

If you want to debate, post some actual info and be clear about what you're frigging talking about.

To be even more clear, when I said earlier Assassins can kill Custodes, you'll see that I also specifically excluded high-ranking Custodes. So the fact that Trajaan is uber-duber doesn't disprove any statement I made either.

And yet another thing! I can look at Trajaan's stats online. Hes got big stats. He's also got a big axe. His game stats totally reflect an ability to kill a vehicle, so this is another instance of a point where game stats actually totally align with whatever book you've read, thus lending more credibility to the game-stats-are-actually-useful-in-the-debate position I've taken.

Speaking of: Custodes vs Eversor Stats

So when you say "nothing is Custodes level" I disagree.

So seeing as how i accidently started this Assassin V custode argument. I just want to say that the only reason i mentioned custodes was because in lore assassins chop through marines left and right with pretty relative ease.

So thats why i would say they would be an even match for a custode considering the average custode can do the same thing to the average space marine.

In terms of table vs lore, i would honeslty say their table rules are pretty reflective of their lore rules as well. Like an evesor would rip apart pretty much any unit he runs into.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
So seeing as how i accidently started this Assassin V custode argument. I just want to say that the only reason i mentioned custodes was because in lore assassins chop through marines left and right with pretty relative ease.

So thats why i would say they would be an even match for a custode considering the average custode can do the same thing to the average space marine.

In terms of table vs lore, i would honeslty say their table rules are pretty reflective of their lore rules as well. Like an evesor would rip apart pretty much any unit he runs into.

In the lore, Genestealers tear through Terminator armor with relative ease, are you saying that a GS is a accurate match-up with a Vindicaire?

Look, the books publish new crap every day. Most of it is instantly deemed canon by the idiots at GW, no matter how badly it ruins the intent of the fluff. It's canon that a single base level human defeated hundreds of Genestealers orks, and even a black legion captain, with just a sword and a laspistol (Cain). By your logic, Cain is more powerful than Astartes Terminators.

Don't play the "Lore says" game. I mean, Lore says whatever is convenient for the narrator. Right? Whatever Abnett needs for the plot is fair game? If he needs a single squad of guardsmen holding off a full army of chaos warriors, he gets it. If Ward needs Astartes being kings of the entire universe, it becomes canon.

I hate the "The lore dictates" argument.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
So seeing as how i accidently started this Assassin V custode argument. I just want to say that the only reason i mentioned custodes was because in lore assassins chop through marines left and right with pretty relative ease.

So thats why i would say they would be an even match for a custode considering the average custode can do the same thing to the average space marine.

In terms of table vs lore, i would honeslty say their table rules are pretty reflective of their lore rules as well. Like an evesor would rip apart pretty much any unit he runs into.

In the lore, Genestealers tear through Terminator armor with relative ease, are you saying that a GS is a accurate match-up with a Vindicaire?

Look, the books publish new crap every day. Most of it is instantly deemed canon by the idiots at GW, no matter how badly it ruins the intent of the fluff. It's canon that a single base level human defeated hundreds of Genestealers orks, and even a black legion captain, with just a sword and a laspistol (Cain). By your logic, Cain is more powerful than Astartes Terminators.

Don't play the "Lore says" game. I mean, Lore says whatever is convenient for the narrator. Right? Whatever Abnett needs for the plot is fair game? If he needs a single squad of guardsmen holding off a full army of chaos warriors, he gets it. If Ward needs Astartes being kings of the entire universe, it becomes canon.

I hate the "The lore dictates" argument.

Specifically, pure strain genestealer. I'm not super up on my GS lore, but aren't they zero % human, thus not relevant to the conversation?

In Space Hulk, genestealers tear through terminators, which is largely where that particular lore comes from. While plot convenience will always be a thing the lore shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand. While using hero characters as a baseline of the general ability of a particular troop type is unwise, Lord commissars are pretty handy in a fight on the tabletop as well. I’m not up on recent stat lines, but given A power sword I’m sure one could give a terminator a run for his money.

Ok, what about Sly Marbo hunting Catachan Devils/Lictors for sport? It's lore in his kit. That's a S/T 3 unit with 4 wounds taking down what is essentially a Dreadnaught.

Point is: using examples in lore to justify a what if, is silly. It's like saying the Bible justifies the Bible. It's circular and fallacious.

Using lore examples to justify a what if is simply analyzing the available information and making conclusions. It's not circular or fallacious. Sure, the lore can be contradictory and inconsistent, but that's what makes the discussion a discussion. Otherwise it'd just be a post quoting something that gives the answer (and the next 3 pages would be about how much we all hate or love GW and how there can be no middle ground )


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And besides,
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/239819.page

The Ork WAAAHH that was held off by Marneus Calgar ALONE, wasn't attacking him, it was running from Sly Marbo. Same with the attack on Armageddon. And the Attack on Terra.

Few people know this, but linguistically speaking, WAAAAAAHH is just the sound of abject terror an Ork makes when he thinks of Sly Marbo. Which is then usually followed by running directly into enemy fire, which is the safest place to be.

No, but honestly. Using X to prove the claim that X is true, is the definition of circular. Using the lore to prove the lore is true is the same. The lore depends on who is writing it. It's like the Inquisition existed during the time of the Primarchs, and was extremely given to purging even the slightest taint, so much so in almost starting a war with Fenris, but they have no problems with a "human" that has wings and an entire chapter of space vampires?

In my view the lore contributes to two things:

1. Broad principles of how the universe works
2. Exceptions to the principles set out by no.1

Item 2 can help set some kind of envelope of what is possible, but as the universe is effectively infinite then pretty much anything is possible.

The in-game unit stats in my view are much more Item 1. There isn't much granularity available in how the game system works, so you can't point to them as a precise indicator of specific power levels, but you can get a feel for relative performance between different troop types.

So in any vs type discussion I think its entirely reasonable to point to in-game stats or lore examples to explore what might happen.

Equally, I also agree that you can't just take the lore at face value because it is so situation and plot dependant.

Another issue is timing. The 40k background covers a lot of time and the specific exceptional information may be out of sequence with the generic background setting.

Taking your last example above, the Inquisition may like purging, but it came about after the primarchs were created, and Sanguinius was either dead before the first proto-inquisitors were chosen, or certainly before they actually sort out who does what. The Inquisition therefore have a general penchant for purging, but due to Sanguinius' sacrifice and them being generally super-awesome, the exceptional information in the lore means that the BAs have a degree of protection and their own background makes it clear that they try to keep the worst aspects of the genetic flaw concealed.

The various conflicts with Fenris and the Space Wolves appear to be from M41, and specifically because the wolves are pretty belligerent, and the parties trying to "investigate" them were not particularly open-minded.

An Inquisitor started a war with the Wolves because the Wolves protected soldiers and civilians who were escaping from the 1st War for Armageddon. It was nothing to do with genetic mutation.

And by protected we mean insisting they be actually be tested for chaos taint before being purged for it, rather than just wiping them out wholesale on the off chance.

The Inquisition is not trigger happy when it comes to wiping out a Space Marine Chapter either. There has to be serious evidence of heresy, treachery or corruption. Even then the Inquisitor in question has to convince outside parties that the Chapter is actually doing the things they say it is. If the Inquisitor can't convince outside parties, it's not just their standing or political clout they could lose but their life.

The soul drinkers were written off pretty quickly, just for standing up to the ad mech who shot first

Don't they convene a "trial" of sorts, ala what they did with Eisenhorne? How do you put an entire chapter in a room, or "in front of" a board of inquisitors?

Also, I'm willing to be those would have to be the HIGHEST level inquisitors to be able to censure or worst case, damn an entire chapter.

Besides, wouldn't they instead just remand that to the High lords, to declare them a fallen chapter or whatever the term might be, and then the high lords would just be like, alright, exterminatus sanctioned.

I'm guessing there's a standard form or something

First founding Chapters, the ones carrying the Legions name, would likely have more leeway.

"You want to eliminate the [insert first founding Chapter] who [insert famous heresy battles] for what?"

Accusing a first founding Chapter without some damning evidence is likely to be detrimental to ones career. It could lead to "retirement".

Any Inquisitor can decree a whole chapter heretical; the issue is convincing other people to go along with your decree. Your fellow Inquisitors may not take kindly to a lack of evidence combined with unhinged raving and probably take it as corruption on your part.

Other Inquisitors, especially in groups, can declare one of their own's orders invalid and heretical if they choose. Which is kind of a nice counter-balance to the issues that would arise when you give an individual person technically unlimited authority. If every Inquisitor has unlimited authority, then all of them need to tread carefully. It's a moderator on excessive behavior, that and the fact that any new Inquisitor is going to have been decades if not centuries in the making. Minimum of 40-50 years serving under another Inquisitor and then having to convince multiple higher ups in one of the Ordos to sanction the new guy.

Forget fellow inquisitors. Any heretical force potent enough to completely and utterly turn 100% of a loyalist chapter would likely be able to turn a few if not a LOT of inquisitors. (See: Heldane, inquisitor, regarding NEcrotuk (SP) affair)

There is no good way to "damn" an entire chapter, unless it's done openly and in daylight. I;E The entire SW chapter is destroyed by the GK, with full sanction by the highlords of Terra.

Chapters aren't only wiped out because they have been obviously corrupted by Chaos or Xenos means.
The Celelstial Lions were targeted for annihilation by the Inquisition because they were opposed to the Inquistion's free reign to commit atrocities, for example.