I'm curious if we'll see old versions of (relatively) newly replaced characters (First born Calgar/Azrael/etc) if they'll be legitimately forgotten or if they'll be "overlooked" after there was an uproar when they were skipped.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: For characters, either as individual models, or a multi-option sprue, akin to the old Space Marine Captain.
Not going anywhere with it, just interested what the minimum and maximum would be to bring existing Legends back to full role.
Theoretically, you could cram all the e.g. Imperial Guard legacy characters on a sprue and do a 'Legends of the Imperium' box or whatever... that would save on SKUs a lot. Not gonna happen, but it would be no particular technical challenge.
Nevelon wrote: Also a little fuzzy with the range rotation thing they are doing. Are minis actually OOP, or just resting?
They said the range rotation stuff would eventually return, but also said nothing specific as to when, in what form etc. - make of that what you will.
My personal take is that it’s toast, and not coming back. But contains core stuff they don’t want to remove from the main rules and move to legends. We might get lucky and get a MTO, but don’t hold your breath. More likely to have a new plastic sculpt made and eventually released.
Basically OOP, but given full rules support, so not legends.
But when asked the question of “how many kits to get everything in print” do we count them?
If stuff is being rotated, I wonder if perhaps we’ll see that stuff get updated kits as their Codexes roll out.
Certainly we can point to 9th Ed being notable for the sheer amount of new kits being churned out - and for at least three Xenos armies getting significant numbers of updated/new kits.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: For characters, either as individual models, or a multi-option sprue, akin to the old Space Marine Captain.
Not going anywhere with it, just interested what the minimum and maximum would be to bring existing Legends back to full role.
That isn't the XYZ model though. IIRC Legends was based on the No Model No Rules thing. They didn't want 3rd parties to make models for their characters, so if they didn't make a specific model for the thing, it went to Legends. Even if they make a generic character kit with upgrade sprues and so on that isn't the model for Captain XYZ.
New or rereleased Kits (7)
Imperial Space Marine
Chaplin on Bike (not to be confused with the new Primaris Chaplin on Bike)
Techmarine on Bike (must include Conversion Beamer)
Librarian in Terminator Armor (new kit to add Storm Shield option)
Librarian on Bike
Honour Guard
Terminus Ultra
Command Squad on Bike (1 Kit) Apothecary on Bike
Company Ancient on Bike
Company Champion on Bike
Company Veterans on Bike
Old Versions of Characters (6 Models) Marneus Calgar in Artificer Armor
Marneus Calgar in Terminator Armor
Chief Librarian Tigurius (non-Primaris)
Kayvaan Shrike (non-Primaris)
Kor’sarro Khan (non-Primaris)
Kor’sarro Khan on Moondrakkan
So that is 19 Kits, mostly non-Primaris models, to remove just Space Marines (not including the special chapters) out of Legends. I'm not holding my breathe here.
Nevelon wrote: Also a little fuzzy with the range rotation thing they are doing. Are minis actually OOP, or just resting?
They said the range rotation stuff would eventually return, but also said nothing specific as to when, in what form etc. - make of that what you will.
My personal take is that it’s toast, and not coming back. But contains core stuff they don’t want to remove from the main rules and move to legends.
Saying it a day before the SM range did, in fact, came back, aged really well
Yup. I was wrong. Proof that cynicism is not always the best policy.
Especially surprised to see some non-named characters.
Your wrong on the highlighted sentence as well. The Chaos Lord with Jump Pack model was "rotated out", but the rules for both giving a Chaos Lord a jump pack, and arming them with paired lightning claws (which is what the model is armed with), were moved to Legends. Expect no consistency from gw.
Nevelon wrote: Also a little fuzzy with the range rotation thing they are doing. Are minis actually OOP, or just resting?
They said the range rotation stuff would eventually return, but also said nothing specific as to when, in what form etc. - make of that what you will.
My personal take is that it’s toast, and not coming back. But contains core stuff they don’t want to remove from the main rules and move to legends.
Saying it a day before the SM range did, in fact, came back, aged really well
Yup. I was wrong. Proof that cynicism is not always the best policy.
Especially surprised to see some non-named characters.
Your wrong on the highlighted sentence as well. The Chaos Lord with Jump Pack model was "rotated out", but the rules for both giving a Chaos Lord a jump pack, and arming them with paired lightning claws (which is what the model is armed with), were moved to Legends. Expect no consistency from gw.
?? That seems very consistent. Remove model from sale & from the codex and then retire it to Legends.
Not seeing tarantulas on that list, I hope they will be included? That's the only big one missing for me. Very happy to see that Dreadclaw, Kharybdis Assault Claw and Deathstorm Drop Pods are still a go
Their decision to keep legends stuff supported but out from tourney play sounds most agreeable to me
tauist wrote: Not seeing tarantulas on that list, I hope they will be included? That's the only big one missing for me. Very happy to see that Dreadclaw, Kharybdis Assault Claw and Deathstorm Drop Pods are still a go
Their decision to keep legends stuff supported but out from tourney play sounds most agreeable to me
That entirely depends upon your community and if comp matched play is standard or not.
Legends of the Horus Heresy units:
(for use in matched and narrative play, but not competitive events)
Leviathan, Contemptor, and Deredeo Dreadnoughts
Kratos, Sicaran, Spartan, Cerberus, and Typhon Tanks
Certain variants of the Land Raider, the Vindicator, and the Whirlwind
Xiphon Interceptors, Fire Raptors, Storm Eagles, and Storm Birds
Legion Support Weapons
Fellblades, Falcions, Mastodons
Javelins, Dreadnoughts and Deathstorm Drop Pods
Secutarii Hoplites and Peltasts, and Terrax-pattern Termites
Decimators, Greater Blight Drones, Blood Slaughterers, Greater Brass Scorpions, Kytan Ravagers, the Kharybdis Assault Claw, and the Dreadclaw Drop Pod
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah, screw Chaos. We are just an NPC race after all.
Makes way more sense for our Daemon Engines to be present during the Horus Heresy anyway...
... wait...
From another thread, after digging out IA 13.
Could be worse, could have 40k Units supposedly be counted torwards 30k.. f.e. the Decimator which has on it's introduction paragraph written M 35. Or the Greater brass scorpions: "First encountered during the later black crusades." Or the Greater Blight drone which has been first encountered at the late stages of the siege of Vraks. M41... Or the blood slaughterer which is tied to the legend of the killing star ...
But he. Those are clearly darkmech creations. That said there may be a prototype Brass scorpion around in HH because one of the Dark mech heads is supposedly the creator of it. but still
H.B.M.C. wrote: Your forget that tournament play becomes the default, especially for pickup games.
it certainly tends to if you let it but it will go that way unless controlled
saw it in the days of Fantasy with someone always moaning how something or other didn't comply with whatever tournament pack they though was a requirement
for me it becomes another, yet another question to ask pre-game
I wasn't even planning on getting 10th, didn't get 9th and didn't miss it, youngest was the same but he is starting to play it against others so likely will end up with it at some point
I suspect I have armies where the majority will be "legends" or otherwise no longer game legal due to changes in unit compositions
I'm not planning on letting this bother me, I'm not planning on playing in events
can't hurt to try to promote a more generally accepting play style, may not work but can't hurt to try
H.B.M.C. wrote: Your forget that tournament play becomes the default, especially for pickup games.
I have not forgotten that. At all. I view this constant tourney focus/obsession as a poison to our hobby.
I advocate for switching your point of view on what the standard should be.
Thus the only time you should be concerned with tourney restrictions is.... if you're in a tourney.
I'm curious as to what peoples breaking point is concerning not being able to use their models - that GW supplies rules for in the current edition.
Wellp, thats a few hundred, maybe a few thousand dollars of minis that I will probably never be able to use again unless I start diversifying my 30k collection into more armies and multiple legions. Saying "their still official and legal for matched play" is all well and good, but it really just creates the perception of there being two tiers of legality/play, and most people only want to play at the highest tier.e highest tier.
For me (and many others) the "not legal for competitive play" bit is a death sentence for these minis. I don't play competitively or attend tournaments, but most of my regular opponents do, and "if its good enough for the tournament crowd, its good enough for everyone else" is the prevailing school of thought in my local meta. Several of my regular opponents (mostly tournament players, but theres a casual in there too) have already started listing those minis for sale online to cut their losses, a couple people already indicated that they won't agree to play against those models, etc. Legends is dead on arrival.
And contrary to CCS take, I'm just one person in a clear minority mindset, at least insofar as my local meta is concerned. If I haven't been able to break that prevailing community mentality after 20 years in the hobby already, Im probably not going to break it now.
Welp, those three Spartans I got for my death guard seem like a bit of a waste now. HBMC is right (screenshot that, I won't be caught saying it again). Tournament rules DO become the standard for pickup games in many cases, especially in stores.
It happened with base sizes (remember, 9th edition does not have base size rules outside of GT missions)
It happened with the Rule of 3
It even already happened with legends!
If your local group are fine with Legends units then I'm genuinely happy for you, but legending a unit makes it a second-tier class of model and people will shun it, especially if GW are using "balance" as an excuse (as if the rest of the un-legended units are balanced!). Why would you willingly allow an opponent to use a model that GW themselves have implied is unbalanced?
I'd say write GW, but I see this decision as them not wanting to produce these kits any longer and focusing their resin production other projects. They made a cost benefit analysis and the loss of sales and upset customers doesn't outweigh savings from not having to support these models.
Maybe if we bug them enough they'll push some new plastics.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Your forget that tournament play becomes the default, especially for pickup games.
When was the last time you heard someone talk about how they used a chaplain dread in their games? And how often does that happen for different happen? Worse part is that the chaos stuff wasn't HH, but got legend anyway and the marine stuff still has in its write up that it can be used for HH and w40k.
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Charax 809890 11541858 wrote:. Why would you willingly allow an opponent to use a model that GW themselves have implied is unbalanced?
"But you can use it in open or narrative" the format that no one plays.
I'd say write GW, but I see this decision as them not wanting to produce these kits any longer and focusing their resin production other projects. They made a cost benefit analysis and the loss of sales and upset customers doesn't outweigh savings from not having to support these models.
Maybe if we bug them enough they'll push some new plastics.
The Spartan IS a new plastic kit. Legended anyways.
The big upside? Custodes units are still good to go. I wonder if that is a portent of them going plastic? Honestly, for a few of the FW Custodes units not only does it make sense, it would be as easy as an upgrade sprue.
Perhaps it also helps define how successful HH is without muddying the waters. The balance thing feels secondary.
Yeah, a "few". Let's see, there's the: Spartan, Kratos, Sicaran, Typhon, Cerberus, Contemptor, and Leviathan. And they'll be more coming. This isn't because of "Resin? Ewwww." And it isn't about "balance".
And, again, it covers multiple daemon engines that have always been 40k units, and Dreadclaws, that were 40k units looonngggg before being 30k units.
This is just straight up "Play with the toys that we want you to".
Oh I agree with you. Surely marines will see a bunch of new units coming in 10th, which will certainly be a slap in the face based on their original reasoning. They definitely painted themselves into a corner with this.
Daedalus81 wrote: Oh I agree with you. Surely marines will see a bunch of new units coming in 10th, which will certainly be a slap in the face based on their original reasoning. They definitely painted themselves into a corner with this.
Charax wrote: Welp, those three Spartans I got for my death guard seem like a bit of a waste now. HBMC is right (screenshot that, I won't be caught saying it again). Tournament rules DO become the standard for pickup games in many cases, especially in stores.
It happened with base sizes (remember, 9th edition does not have base size rules outside of GT missions)
It happened with the Rule of 3
It even already happened with legends!
If your local group are fine with Legends units then I'm genuinely happy for you, but legending a unit makes it a second-tier class of model and people will shun it, especially if GW are using "balance" as an excuse (as if the rest of the un-legended units are balanced!). Why would you willingly allow an opponent to use a model that GW themselves have implied is unbalanced?
Is this really common for everyone else outside of big tournaments? My city's got a fairly large 40k community and I've never had an issue playing my Legends units in any tournaments around the city regardless of who was hosting it. They did adopt the rule of three, but that's about it from competitive rules. My main gripe was always that the power creep leaves them behind an makes them feel terrible to play after a while. I wouldn't mind so much if they said something like "every edition we'll give Legends a quick pass and a little tweak to keep them up to date" so that they're never super strong/optimal, but feel relevant enough. I'm weary though that when 11th comes out, the Legends units will feel clunky and/or be objectively bad units compared to anything else. A good example of this were that Knarloc Riders were pretty solid at the dawn of 8th, not amazing, but good. By the time 9th rolled around, they were objectively terrible, the Krootox at 5 points less per model did everything they did, twice as well.
Daedalus81 wrote: Oh I agree with you. Surely marines will see a bunch of new units coming in 10th, which will certainly be a slap in the face based on their original reasoning. They definitely painted themselves into a corner with this.
Yup. You nailed, Daed. You absolutely nailed it.
But those will be PRIMARIS OHHH AHHH, that makes them better!
Daedalus81 wrote: Oh I agree with you. Surely marines will see a bunch of new units coming in 10th, which will certainly be a slap in the face based on their original reasoning. They definitely painted themselves into a corner with this.
Yup. You nailed, Daed. You absolutely nailed it.
But those will be PRIMARIS OHHH AHHH, that makes them better!
Look, I know that you're cracking wise and are "on side" with me, but that is very poor consolation for CSM players who have lost multiple daemon engines and our only source for drop pods, which we've had for 21 years.
Daedalus81 wrote: Oh I agree with you. Surely marines will see a bunch of new units coming in 10th, which will certainly be a slap in the face based on their original reasoning. They definitely painted themselves into a corner with this.
Yup. You nailed, Daed. You absolutely nailed it.
But those will be PRIMARIS OHHH AHHH, that makes them better!
Look, I know that you're cracking wise and are "on side" with me, but that is very poor consolation for CSM players who have lost multiple daemon engines and our only source for drop pods, which we've had for 21 years.
i for one absolutely revel in the fact that the scouring seemingly took place until M41, afterall these dameonengines are classified as HH legends , aren't they?
I welcome our new Decimator dark mechanicus overlords, and their arachnid pets the scorpion of brass.
Long shall they reign.
Surely the ancient art of sticking daemons in vehicles was well known by M30 and broadly understood by the priesthood.
Daedalus81 wrote: Oh I agree with you. Surely marines will see a bunch of new units coming in 10th, which will certainly be a slap in the face based on their original reasoning. They definitely painted themselves into a corner with this.
Yup. You nailed, Daed. You absolutely nailed it.
But those will be PRIMARIS OHHH AHHH, that makes them better!
Look, I know that you're cracking wise and are "on side" with me, but that is very poor consolation for CSM players who have lost multiple daemon engines and our only source for drop pods, which we've had for 21 years.
i for one absolutely revel in the fact that the scouring seemingly took place until M41, afterall these dameonengines are classified as HH legends , aren't they?
I welcome our new Decimator dark mechanicus overlords, and their arachnid pets the scorpion of brass.
Long shall they reign.
Surely the ancient art of sticking daemons in vehicles was well known by M30 and broadly understood by the priesthood.
Yes, apparently. Even for the Daemon engines not known until long after the Heresy. /s
Tome_Keeper wrote: Retiring some of these things seems dumb to me. Just make them worse in 40k than in HH.
Contemptor and Relic Contemptor are the ones that hurt....
That doesn't hurt at all. Because they are in codex SM and have therefore replacement options. From a rules mechanic standpoint.
Now on the side of CSM... yeah that really stings because this just ripped out ALL the ok to good shooting the list had remaining. All the deployment options.
Ultimativly i have a feeling the GW40k studio got a bit cold feet after seeing that HH units sell quite well for 40k use. (that has of course multiple reasons, one being often cheaper than 40k equivalents, the other being they just look better than a lot of the recent primaris stuff.)
Of course just because you have mechanically equivalents available doesn't mean that it isn't an utter dick move by GW to invalidate them for the modus that will come in some variations to dominate the "normal" matched play ruleset but he, nobody cared when corsairs and R&H got yeeted, why should people now care about some "fringe "Fw models.
I don’t get the complaint about legends, really. It has been hard to include FW units since 7th Edition when they were excluded from most formations that ruled the game. The FW indizes in 8th and 9th weren't great too and their Faqs were usually nothing substantial. So, for me the situation is exactly like it was before: some FW units won't have rules and need to stand in (Necrosius, Plague Hulk), others will probably look a little out of place once the codex comes in, but they're still normal units (Blight drones).
My gaming table is 4x6 and I never play in a GW tournament. For me legends is good as I expected GW to finally kill all these units or just leave 9th legends on the page.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I don’t get the complaint about legends, really. It has been hard to include FW units since 7th Edition when they were excluded from most formations that ruled the game. The FW indizes in 8th and 9th weren't great too and their Faqs were usually nothing substantial. So, for me the situation is exactly like it was before: some FW units won't have rules and need to stand in (Necrosius, Plague Hulk), others will probably look a little out of place once the codex comes in, but they're still normal units (Blight drones).
My gaming table is 4x6 and I never play in a GW tournament. For me legends is good as I expected GW to finally kill all these units or just leave 9th legends on the page.
Part of me thinks it's GW giving the middle finger to 3d printing. FW models were probably the most abused in that sense due to their cost. I get putting a model into legends if no one can get it anymore, but so many of these units can still be bought. I don't think it would have been a herculean effort even if it meant they condense the weapons on a decimator as an example.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I don’t get the complaint about legends, really. It has been hard to include FW units since 7th Edition when they were excluded from most formations that ruled the game. The FW indizes in 8th and 9th weren't great too and their Faqs were usually nothing substantial. So, for me the situation is exactly like it was before: some FW units won't have rules and need to stand in (Necrosius, Plague Hulk), others will probably look a little out of place once the codex comes in, but they're still normal units (Blight drones).
My gaming table is 4x6 and I never play in a GW tournament. For me legends is good as I expected GW to finally kill all these units or just leave 9th legends on the page.
Cute story. I didn't run formations in 7th. Why? Because it made it difficult to use my Contemptors, Sicaran, Achilles, Fellblade and Dreadclaws (which I had been using since fething 4th edition).
Sometimes, it's better to run the models that you like, than what's more "competitive". Gw has sold us these models. They should fully support them. It's called "customer service".
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I don’t get the complaint about legends, really. It has been hard to include FW units since 7th Edition when they were excluded from most formations that ruled the game. The FW indizes in 8th and 9th weren't great too and their Faqs were usually nothing substantial. So, for me the situation is exactly like it was before: some FW units won't have rules and need to stand in (Necrosius, Plague Hulk), others will probably look a little out of place once the codex comes in, but they're still normal units (Blight drones).
My gaming table is 4x6 and I never play in a GW tournament. For me legends is good as I expected GW to finally kill all these units or just leave 9th legends on the page.
Part of me thinks it's GW giving the middle finger to 3d printing. FW models were probably the most abused in that sense due to their cost. I get putting a model into legends if no one can get it anymore, but so many of these units can still be bought. I don't think it would have been a herculean effort even if it meant they condense the weapons on a decimator as an example.
Recasts too. Most Russian and Chinese recasters had far better quality control than FW with less warping, bubbles, misaligned molds and broken parts. Even people who could afford FW models would often get the recasts to save themselves the headaches of cleaning up the FW parts.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I don’t get the complaint about legends, really. It has been hard to include FW units since 7th Edition when they were excluded from most formations that ruled the game. The FW indizes in 8th and 9th weren't great too and their Faqs were usually nothing substantial. So, for me the situation is exactly like it was before: some FW units won't have rules and need to stand in (Necrosius, Plague Hulk), others will probably look a little out of place once the codex comes in, but they're still normal units (Blight drones).
My gaming table is 4x6 and I never play in a GW tournament. For me legends is good as I expected GW to finally kill all these units or just leave 9th legends on the page.
Part of me thinks it's GW giving the middle finger to 3d printing. FW models were probably the most abused in that sense due to their cost. I get putting a model into legends if no one can get it anymore, but so many of these units can still be bought. I don't think it would have been a herculean effort even if it meant they condense the weapons on a decimator as an example.
Recasts too. Most Russian and Chinese recasters had far better quality control than FW with less warping, bubbles, misaligned molds and broken parts. Even people who could afford FW models would often get the recasts to save themselves the headaches of cleaning up the FW parts.
In my experience over here virtually all FW models in 40K games are recasts, and most of those are Dreadnoughts. In 8th they were simply more powerful than their mainstream equivalents so the incentive was there. Perhaps 2019/20 was a turning point in how the main GW40K design team looked at FW as they took notice of what was going on in the gaming world outside their studio? Maybe GW saw that the prevalence of FW Dreads on tabletops that did not match with their FW sales data? In 9th it was evident that the main studio was trying to reign in FW competitively, and now they take the final step.
It could be just a case, though, that much of FW was just designed outside the 40K "frame" and they would like to simplify their balance efforts. So two friends are free to use those FW models in their own games (because friends can do what they like) but don't expect to bring them to tourneys or open-gaming night against strangers.
I don't really mind it with models that are mostly aesthetically different.
Honestly once a Marine has been installed in a 20 ton mecha body, who cares if he used to be a Chaplain or a rifleman? Do Termies with different shoulderpads really need unique rules? The problem is GW making units that are already uber (dreads, termies) and making them even more uber! Uber x2!
For me what will matter in Legends/codex will be the units that have been dropped or configurations that were banned.
As an IG player I'm looking at squads of conscripts, special weapon teams and vets that are now banned. All my command squads are now illegal, banned by the rules on duplicate weapons. So is the horde of Scions I did last summer. I can shuffle models, but that means converting or repainting, and honestly just pisses me off.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I don’t get the complaint about legends, really. It has been hard to include FW units since 7th Edition when they were excluded from most formations that ruled the game. The FW indizes in 8th and 9th weren't great too and their Faqs were usually nothing substantial. So, for me the situation is exactly like it was before: some FW units won't have rules and need to stand in (Necrosius, Plague Hulk), others will probably look a little out of place once the codex comes in, but they're still normal units (Blight drones).
My gaming table is 4x6 and I never play in a GW tournament. For me legends is good as I expected GW to finally kill all these units or just leave 9th legends on the page.
Cute story. I didn't run formations in 7th. Why? Because it made it difficult to use my Contemptors, Sicaran, Achilles, Fellblade and Dreadclaws (which I had been using since fething 4th edition).
Sometimes, it's better to run the models that you like, than what's more "competitive". Gw has sold us these models. They should fully support them. It's called "customer service".
Yes, but from my view it's exactly what they do. There are models, they have rules. They even update legends rules to 10th despite having said in 9th they never will.
So for someone who didn't use formations in 7th there's literally no difference (as a Chaos player myself I had formations for half a year before the edition died, before that, well, we played Maestrom to give a chance to the have-nots ).
So, legends for HH models - totally okay.
No legends for Jump lords? - totally not cool.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I don’t get the complaint about legends, really. It has been hard to include FW units since 7th Edition when they were excluded from most formations that ruled the game. The FW indizes in 8th and 9th weren't great too and their Faqs were usually nothing substantial. So, for me the situation is exactly like it was before: some FW units won't have rules and need to stand in (Necrosius, Plague Hulk), others will probably look a little out of place once the codex comes in, but they're still normal units (Blight drones).
My gaming table is 4x6 and I never play in a GW tournament. For me legends is good as I expected GW to finally kill all these units or just leave 9th legends on the page.
Cute story. I didn't run formations in 7th. Why? Because it made it difficult to use my Contemptors, Sicaran, Achilles, Fellblade and Dreadclaws (which I had been using since fething 4th edition).
Sometimes, it's better to run the models that you like, than what's more "competitive". Gw has sold us these models. They should fully support them. It's called "customer service".
Yes, but from my view it's exactly what they do. There are models, they have rules. They even update legends rules to 10th despite having said in 9th they never will.
So for someone who didn't use formations in 7th there's literally no difference (as a Chaos player myself I had formations for half a year before the edition died, before that, well, we played Maestrom to give a chance to the have-nots ).
So, legends for HH models - totally okay.
No legends for Jump lords? - totally not cool.
No, it isn't "okay". Because many people have purchased these models from gw, and for many of us, they're very important to our armies. They shouldn’t be shoved off to Legends. And that goes double for the Daemon engines that were always40k units, and Dreadclaws, which were 40k units long before they were HH units, or even before HH even existed. But go ahead, keep huffing that copium.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I don’t get the complaint about legends, really. It has been hard to include FW units since 7th Edition when they were excluded from most formations that ruled the game. The FW indizes in 8th and 9th weren't great too and their Faqs were usually nothing substantial. So, for me the situation is exactly like it was before: some FW units won't have rules and need to stand in (Necrosius, Plague Hulk), others will probably look a little out of place once the codex comes in, but they're still normal units (Blight drones).
My gaming table is 4x6 and I never play in a GW tournament. For me legends is good as I expected GW to finally kill all these units or just leave 9th legends on the page.
Cute story. I didn't run formations in 7th. Why? Because it made it difficult to use my Contemptors, Sicaran, Achilles, Fellblade and Dreadclaws (which I had been using since fething 4th edition).
Sometimes, it's better to run the models that you like, than what's more "competitive". Gw has sold us these models. They should fully support them. It's called "customer service".
Yes, but from my view it's exactly what they do. There are models, they have rules. They even update legends rules to 10th despite having said in 9th they never will.
So for someone who didn't use formations in 7th there's literally no difference (as a Chaos player myself I had formations for half a year before the edition died, before that, well, we played Maestrom to give a chance to the have-nots ).
So, legends for HH models - totally okay.
No legends for Jump lords? - totally not cool.
No, it isn't "okay". Because many people have purchased these models from gw, and for many of us, they're very important to our armies. They shouldn’t be shoved off to Legends. And that goes double for the Daemon engines that were always40k units, and Dreadclaws, which were 40k units long before they were HH units, or even before HH even existed. But go ahead, keep huffing that copium.
They've been "shoved off" to FW books before which needed an allowance from your opponent in earlier editions. There's nothing like that now. If you have an opponent who doesn't like your HH units or treats every game like it was a GW tournament? Well, he's obviousely not worth it to play with. Half of my Orks and DG armies aren't even GW models, I guess I'm not allowed to play these as well in a normal game? No, it's just that tiny fraction of games in a GW were I'm not allowed to use them. Same with legends.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I don’t get the complaint about legends, really. It has been hard to include FW units since 7th Edition when they were excluded from most formations that ruled the game. The FW indizes in 8th and 9th weren't great too and their Faqs were usually nothing substantial. So, for me the situation is exactly like it was before: some FW units won't have rules and need to stand in (Necrosius, Plague Hulk), others will probably look a little out of place once the codex comes in, but they're still normal units (Blight drones).
My gaming table is 4x6 and I never play in a GW tournament. For me legends is good as I expected GW to finally kill all these units or just leave 9th legends on the page.
Cute story. I didn't run formations in 7th. Why? Because it made it difficult to use my Contemptors, Sicaran, Achilles, Fellblade and Dreadclaws (which I had been using since fething 4th edition).
Sometimes, it's better to run the models that you like, than what's more "competitive". Gw has sold us these models. They should fully support them. It's called "customer service".
Yes, but from my view it's exactly what they do. There are models, they have rules. They even update legends rules to 10th despite having said in 9th they never will.
So for someone who didn't use formations in 7th there's literally no difference (as a Chaos player myself I had formations for half a year before the edition died, before that, well, we played Maestrom to give a chance to the have-nots ).
So, legends for HH models - totally okay.
No legends for Jump lords? - totally not cool.
No, it isn't "okay". Because many people have purchased these models from gw, and for many of us, they're very important to our armies. They shouldn’t be shoved off to Legends. And that goes double for the Daemon engines that were always40k units, and Dreadclaws, which were 40k units long before they were HH units, or even before HH even existed. But go ahead, keep huffing that copium.
They've been "shoved off" to FW books before which needed an allowance from your opponent in earlier editions. There's nothing like that now. If you have an opponent who doesn't like your HH units or treats every game like it was a GW tournament? Well, he's obviousely not worth it to play with. Half of my Orks and DG armies aren't even GW models, I guess I'm not allowed to play these as well in a normal game? No, it's just that tiny fraction of games in a GW were I'm not allowed to use them. Same with legends.
No rules updates. That means they'll be quickly left behind. Keep smoking that Copium. I'll be having fun playing HH.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I don’t get the complaint about legends, really. It has been hard to include FW units since 7th Edition when they were excluded from most formations that ruled the game. The FW indizes in 8th and 9th weren't great too and their Faqs were usually nothing substantial. So, for me the situation is exactly like it was before: some FW units won't have rules and need to stand in (Necrosius, Plague Hulk), others will probably look a little out of place once the codex comes in, but they're still normal units (Blight drones).
My gaming table is 4x6 and I never play in a GW tournament. For me legends is good as I expected GW to finally kill all these units or just leave 9th legends on the page.
Cute story. I didn't run formations in 7th. Why? Because it made it difficult to use my Contemptors, Sicaran, Achilles, Fellblade and Dreadclaws (which I had been using since fething 4th edition).
Sometimes, it's better to run the models that you like, than what's more "competitive". Gw has sold us these models. They should fully support them. It's called "customer service".
Yes, but from my view it's exactly what they do. There are models, they have rules. They even update legends rules to 10th despite having said in 9th they never will.
So for someone who didn't use formations in 7th there's literally no difference (as a Chaos player myself I had formations for half a year before the edition died, before that, well, we played Maestrom to give a chance to the have-nots ).
So, legends for HH models - totally okay.
No legends for Jump lords? - totally not cool.
No, it isn't "okay". Because many people have purchased these models from gw, and for many of us, they're very important to our armies. They shouldn’t be shoved off to Legends. And that goes double for the Daemon engines that were always40k units, and Dreadclaws, which were 40k units long before they were HH units, or even before HH even existed. But go ahead, keep huffing that copium.
They've been "shoved off" to FW books before which needed an allowance from your opponent in earlier editions. There's nothing like that now. If you have an opponent who doesn't like your HH units or treats every game like it was a GW tournament? Well, he's obviousely not worth it to play with. Half of my Orks and DG armies aren't even GW models, I guess I'm not allowed to play these as well in a normal game? No, it's just that tiny fraction of games in a GW were I'm not allowed to use them. Same with legends.
They required permission before, they require now.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I don’t get the complaint about legends, really. It has been hard to include FW units since 7th Edition when they were excluded from most formations that ruled the game. The FW indizes in 8th and 9th weren't great too and their Faqs were usually nothing substantial. So, for me the situation is exactly like it was before: some FW units won't have rules and need to stand in (Necrosius, Plague Hulk), others will probably look a little out of place once the codex comes in, but they're still normal units (Blight drones).
My gaming table is 4x6 and I never play in a GW tournament. For me legends is good as I expected GW to finally kill all these units or just leave 9th legends on the page.
Cute story. I didn't run formations in 7th. Why? Because it made it difficult to use my Contemptors, Sicaran, Achilles, Fellblade and Dreadclaws (which I had been using since fething 4th edition).
Sometimes, it's better to run the models that you like, than what's more "competitive". Gw has sold us these models. They should fully support them. It's called "customer service".
Yes, but from my view it's exactly what they do. There are models, they have rules. They even update legends rules to 10th despite having said in 9th they never will.
So for someone who didn't use formations in 7th there's literally no difference (as a Chaos player myself I had formations for half a year before the edition died, before that, well, we played Maestrom to give a chance to the have-nots ).
So, legends for HH models - totally okay.
No legends for Jump lords? - totally not cool.
No, it isn't "okay". Because many people have purchased these models from gw, and for many of us, they're very important to our armies. They shouldn’t be shoved off to Legends. And that goes double for the Daemon engines that were always40k units, and Dreadclaws, which were 40k units long before they were HH units, or even before HH even existed. But go ahead, keep huffing that copium.
They've been "shoved off" to FW books before which needed an allowance from your opponent in earlier editions. There's nothing like that now. If you have an opponent who doesn't like your HH units or treats every game like it was a GW tournament? Well, he's obviousely not worth it to play with. Half of my Orks and DG armies aren't even GW models, I guess I'm not allowed to play these as well in a normal game? No, it's just that tiny fraction of games in a GW were I'm not allowed to use them. Same with legends.
No rules updates. That means they'll be quickly left behind. Keep smoking that Copium. I'll be having fun playing HH.
I don't know which FW books you got in the past that got rules updates that actually improved units or brought them on par with the stuff GW wrote in their Codizes.
You told me earlier that competitive doesn't matter to you so you played without formations just fine, but now it's important that you get your yearly points update to not be "left behind"? You're being inconsistent. Keep grinding your axe. I'm having fun playing OPR by the way and my group is very skeptical towards these new rules. Of all the things GW is doing wrong I'm just not thinking legends is one of them.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I don’t get the complaint about legends, really. It has been hard to include FW units since 7th Edition when they were excluded from most formations that ruled the game. The FW indizes in 8th and 9th weren't great too and their Faqs were usually nothing substantial. So, for me the situation is exactly like it was before: some FW units won't have rules and need to stand in (Necrosius, Plague Hulk), others will probably look a little out of place once the codex comes in, but they're still normal units (Blight drones).
My gaming table is 4x6 and I never play in a GW tournament. For me legends is good as I expected GW to finally kill all these units or just leave 9th legends on the page.
Cute story. I didn't run formations in 7th. Why? Because it made it difficult to use my Contemptors, Sicaran, Achilles, Fellblade and Dreadclaws (which I had been using since fething 4th edition).
Sometimes, it's better to run the models that you like, than what's more "competitive". Gw has sold us these models. They should fully support them. It's called "customer service".
Yes, but from my view it's exactly what they do. There are models, they have rules. They even update legends rules to 10th despite having said in 9th they never will.
So for someone who didn't use formations in 7th there's literally no difference (as a Chaos player myself I had formations for half a year before the edition died, before that, well, we played Maestrom to give a chance to the have-nots ).
So, legends for HH models - totally okay.
No legends for Jump lords? - totally not cool.
No, it isn't "okay". Because many people have purchased these models from gw, and for many of us, they're very important to our armies. They shouldn’t be shoved off to Legends. And that goes double for the Daemon engines that were always40k units, and Dreadclaws, which were 40k units long before they were HH units, or even before HH even existed. But go ahead, keep huffing that copium.
They've been "shoved off" to FW books before which needed an allowance from your opponent in earlier editions. There's nothing like that now. If you have an opponent who doesn't like your HH units or treats every game like it was a GW tournament? Well, he's obviousely not worth it to play with. Half of my Orks and DG armies aren't even GW models, I guess I'm not allowed to play these as well in a normal game? No, it's just that tiny fraction of games in a GW were I'm not allowed to use them. Same with legends.
They required permission before, they require now.
Outside of tourney (competitive) play they do not currently require any more permission than playing any other unit.
When I accept the random Wednesday night "Looking for Game" request down at the flgs? It's not a tourney game. I don't need to ask if I can play a Termite drill etc. Just like I don't need to ask their permission to play Space Wolves, or Orks, or....
BECAUSE:
GW has told you "These are the 10e rules for these units."
The mistake you all keep making is confusing your tournament games with being equal to every other game you'll play.
All games outside of tourneys require both players to agree to have the game and then agree to the terms of the game. Following tourney conventions is, in my experience, a workable standard for pick-up games as the intent of tourney rules is usually to assure some level of fairness. Negotiation between strangers can be difficult, so having a third party establish the terms of the game is easier and less awkward.
Showing up to a pick-up game against a stranger without any prior discussion expecting to use Legends units is asking for disappointment. The player expecting to use Legends without prior approval would be more at fault than the player expecting to follow the mainstream competitive framework. I would have no issues with a friend asking to use a Legends model in game outside of tourney play, but we are friends and can navigate any issues of fairness or balance in the interests of "cool" and variety. I would not use a Legends unit in a pick-up game.
Now, you might have a gaming community where Legends are accepted without concerns, perhaps because the leadership of the community likes them. Just like there are communities that play other games or other editions. If so then enjoy springing your Legends models on people at pick-up games.
CCS that is great that where you play this is the case, but you can find litteral pages of people on forums, facebook or posting under YT comments etc. Where this is not the case. And when Legands means people will say no. You can imagine people are going to have to imagine that people are unhappy. A lot of the HH popularity came from the fact that a ton of the stuff could be used in both games.
Technicaly no rule is a problem. If someone plays where you play. Maybe people can even write their own missions, secondary rules, heck maybe even an entire codex. But it is not a common thing.
Karol wrote: CCS that is great that where you play this is the case, but you can find litteral pages of people on forums, facebook or posting under YT comments etc. Where this is not the case. And when Legands means people will say no. You can imagine people are going to have to imagine that people are unhappy. A lot of the HH popularity came from the fact that a ton of the stuff could be used in both games.
Technicaly no rule is a problem. If someone plays where you play. Maybe people can even write their own missions, secondary rules, heck maybe even an entire codex. But it is not a common thing.
See, and this is where our perception is very different. What I see on online groups outside of Dakka is:
Someone asks what faction X can do to react to changes in the recent tournament book. More than half the reactions are: What is this book? What is this book about? Drown them in bodies. Play what you like. Faction x is awesome. Go and play OPR. Huh, is there something else than the rulebook? We are doing 7th over here ...
Outside of tourney (competitive) play they do not currently require any more permission than playing any other unit. When I accept the random Wednesday night "Looking for Game" request down at the flgs? It's not a tourney game. I don't need to ask if I can play a Termite drill etc. Just like I don't need to ask their permission to play Space Wolves, or Orks, or.... BECAUSE: GW has told you "These are the 10e rules for these units."
The mistake you all keep making is confusing your tournament games with being equal to every other game you'll play.
Yep. Not allowing Legends in non-tournament games is a house rule. GW isn't blameworthy for the effects of people changing the game with stupid house rules.
If a gaming store has a policy that whenever a Super Heavy unit loses a wound, the attacker gets to kick the Super-Heavy's player in the balls, that's not a good reason to lobby GW to remove the Super Heavy keyword from various units because they're too painful to play.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I don’t get the complaint about legends, really. It has been hard to include FW units since 7th Edition when they were excluded from most formations that ruled the game. The FW indizes in 8th and 9th weren't great too and their Faqs were usually nothing substantial. So, for me the situation is exactly like it was before: some FW units won't have rules and need to stand in (Necrosius, Plague Hulk), others will probably look a little out of place once the codex comes in, but they're still normal units (Blight drones).
My gaming table is 4x6 and I never play in a GW tournament. For me legends is good as I expected GW to finally kill all these units or just leave 9th legends on the page.
Cute story. I didn't run formations in 7th. Why? Because it made it difficult to use my Contemptors, Sicaran, Achilles, Fellblade and Dreadclaws (which I had been using since fething 4th edition).
Sometimes, it's better to run the models that you like, than what's more "competitive". Gw has sold us these models. They should fully support them. It's called "customer service".
Yes, but from my view it's exactly what they do. There are models, they have rules. They even update legends rules to 10th despite having said in 9th they never will.
So for someone who didn't use formations in 7th there's literally no difference (as a Chaos player myself I had formations for half a year before the edition died, before that, well, we played Maestrom to give a chance to the have-nots ).
So, legends for HH models - totally okay.
No legends for Jump lords? - totally not cool.
No, it isn't "okay". Because many people have purchased these models from gw, and for many of us, they're very important to our armies. They shouldn’t be shoved off to Legends. And that goes double for the Daemon engines that were always40k units, and Dreadclaws, which were 40k units long before they were HH units, or even before HH even existed. But go ahead, keep huffing that copium.
They've been "shoved off" to FW books before which needed an allowance from your opponent in earlier editions. There's nothing like that now. If you have an opponent who doesn't like your HH units or treats every game like it was a GW tournament? Well, he's obviousely not worth it to play with. Half of my Orks and DG armies aren't even GW models, I guess I'm not allowed to play these as well in a normal game? No, it's just that tiny fraction of games in a GW were I'm not allowed to use them. Same with legends.
No rules updates. That means they'll be quickly left behind. Keep smoking that Copium. I'll be having fun playing HH.
I don't know which FW books you got in the past that got rules updates that actually improved units or brought them on par with the stuff GW wrote in their Codizes.
You told me earlier that competitive doesn't matter to you so you played without formations just fine, but now it's important that you get your yearly points update to not be "left behind"? You're being inconsistent. Keep grinding your axe. I'm having fun playing OPR by the way and my group is very skeptical towards these new rules. Of all the things GW is doing wrong I'm just not thinking legends is one of them.
Fw units received consistent updates throughout 8th, and still got updates throughout 9th, though they came sloowwly. And most of those updates were to keep the units "functional" within the new codexes. Basic keyword and rules changes. If we see similar changes with the 10th edition codexes, but no updates for fw models? They could become non-functional without house ruling. That's the problem. Not "competitiveness", but "functionality".
This is a very good point, to use 9e as an example the Custodes codex released new rules regarding keywords on [Auric] weapons, so all the FW models needed an update to add that keyword otherwise they would be ineligible to use any rules or stratagems that relied on that keyword.
It's also not easy to adjudicate or house rule either way. Players could have easily agreed that the FW Spears should be Auric weapons, but what about the Sagittarum guns or the Venatari? That's not something that could be answered right away but at least you could expect a rules update. With a push to Legends if a similar situation happened again and the new WE Codex introduces [Very very bloody weapon] keyword, well, my blood slaughterers won't get that and thus wouldn't be eligible for rules or stratagems etc. that rely on that keyword. That's the disappointing part of legends.
(And pushing 40k Daemon Engines into Legends is some real salt in the Wound )
Outside of tourney (competitive) play they do not currently require any more permission than playing any other unit.
When I accept the random Wednesday night "Looking for Game" request down at the flgs? It's not a tourney game. I don't need to ask if I can play a Termite drill etc. Just like I don't need to ask their permission to play Space Wolves, or Orks, or....
BECAUSE:
GW has told you "These are the 10e rules for these units."
The mistake you all keep making is confusing your tournament games with being equal to every other game you'll play.
Yep. Not allowing Legends in non-tournament games is a house rule. GW isn't blameworthy for the effects of people changing the game with stupid house rules.
If a gaming store has a policy that whenever a Super Heavy unit loses a wound, the attacker gets to kick the Super-Heavy's player in the balls, that's not a good reason to lobby GW to remove the Super Heavy keyword from various units because they're too painful to play.
that as a rule though could attract more female players
Aaaannddd.....Loyalist Scum keeps both Contemptors, and Relic Terminators. Meanwhile, CSM lose a swath of Daemon Engines and Dreadclaws, because those are apparently "HH" units now. So, when does the exodus of CSM players to HH begin?
Yeah I was surprised by that as well, I thought Contemptors were going to Legends except for the Custodes. Unless they mean that Legends are getting mixed into the Indexes. I guess we'll know if we see any of the FW Dreads in the CSM or WE Indexes.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Aaaannddd.....Loyalist Scum keeps both Contemptors, and Relic Terminators. Meanwhile, CSM lose a swath of Daemon Engines and Dreadclaws, because those are apparently "HH" units now. So, when does the exodus of CSM players to HH begin?
Tried my first game of HH yesterday :p Fun but i'm gonna need to get some reps to get used to the system (considering i started playing in 8th only)
Gadzilla666 wrote: Aaaannddd.....Loyalist Scum keeps both Contemptors, and Relic Terminators.
This is index. There is no guarantee that they will be in the codex.
But it's more likely than not. If they were going to Legends them, they are more likely to have done it here. They might not be available to ALL - Jump Pack Libbies, or Heavy Flamer Tacs/Devs and such are more likely to go X Chapter only when codexes hit than Contemptors etc go Legends.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Aaaannddd.....Loyalist Scum keeps both Contemptors, and Relic Terminators. Meanwhile, CSM lose a swath of Daemon Engines and Dreadclaws, because those are apparently "HH" units now. So, when does the exodus of CSM players to HH begin?
Tried my first game of HH yesterday :p Fun but i'm gonna need to get some reps to get used to the system (considering i started playing in 8th only)
Yeah, there's probably a lot to get used to. But I think you won't have any trouble doing that. Were you playing 8th Legion Vlad?
Gadzilla666 wrote: Aaaannddd.....Loyalist Scum keeps both Contemptors, and Relic Terminators. Meanwhile, CSM lose a swath of Daemon Engines and Dreadclaws, because those are apparently "HH" units now. So, when does the exodus of CSM players to HH begin?
They're not the full loadouts, at least for the Contemptor. As for Relic Terminators, GW's social media team isn't hooked into all the information.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Aaaannddd.....Loyalist Scum keeps both Contemptors, and Relic Terminators. Meanwhile, CSM lose a swath of Daemon Engines and Dreadclaws, because those are apparently "HH" units now. So, when does the exodus of CSM players to HH begin?
They're not the full loadouts, at least for the Contemptor. As for Relic Terminators, GW's social media team isn't hooked into all the information.
Doesn't make GW look any better at all from a CSM perspective, now does it.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Aaaannddd.....Loyalist Scum keeps both Contemptors, and Relic Terminators. Meanwhile, CSM lose a swath of Daemon Engines and Dreadclaws, because those are apparently "HH" units now. So, when does the exodus of CSM players to HH begin?
Tried my first game of HH yesterday :p Fun but i'm gonna need to get some reps to get used to the system (considering i started playing in 8th only)
Yeah, there's probably a lot to get used to. But I think you won't have any trouble doing that. Were you playing 8th Legion Vlad?
Tried thousand sons at 1k since theyre actually painted, but it did make the painting inspiration start again, finally locked in how i'm gonna be painting the 8th.
------------
And yeah, there is no way that Relic termis and contemptor dissapear once the codex comes out. Rest of the 30k models are already getting an index...
tauist wrote: When are these Legends datasheets supposed to drop? I kind of need em to play my army in 10th..
This is the extent of what we know so far:
- The entire month of June will be hyping up free products that you can download
- 2nd of June: core rules and quickstart guide True
- 5th of June: Leviathan datasheets True
- 8th of June: Tyranid datasheets Pending
- 9th of June: SM datasheets True
- 12th of June: non-codex SM datasheets True
- 13th of June: Chaos SM datasheets Pending
- 14th of June: Imperium datasheets Pending
- 15th of June: Xenos datasheets Pending
- 16th of June: GT packs and points list Pending
- 20th of June: Datasheets for Combat Patrol Pending
- 23rd of June: Boarding Patrol and Crusade material Pending
Other than that, they said that Legends and Imperial Armour sheets would arrive 'soon' after the game's release, whatever that is supposed to mean. I think they'll use some of them to keep the hype going after the 24th, and until they can roll over to the Tyranid/SM codex previews after the 9th of July, when their mini-Campaign ends and one faction will get an exclusive preview. They can easily fill a week with Legends and Imperial Armour each by doing some sort of SM-CSM-Imperium-Xenos split or whatever. That adds up to new-model-monday plus four days of stuff.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Aaaannddd.....Loyalist Scum keeps both Contemptors, and Relic Terminators. Meanwhile, CSM lose a swath of Daemon Engines and Dreadclaws, because those are apparently "HH" units now. So, when does the exodus of CSM players to HH begin?
I don't see Contemptors in the CSM Index and no Blood Slaughterers in the WE Index. Guess there will be a separate index for FW Legends while Loyalists keep the Contemptor. Disappointing.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Aaaannddd.....Loyalist Scum keeps both Contemptors, and Relic Terminators. Meanwhile, CSM lose a swath of Daemon Engines and Dreadclaws, because those are apparently "HH" units now. So, when does the exodus of CSM players to HH begin?
I don't see Contemptors in the CSM Index and no Blood Slaughterers in the WE Index. Guess there will be a separate index for FW Legends while Loyalists keep the Contemptor. Disappointing.
Separate IA-stuff Index was confirmed by their Social Media staff way at the start of the 10th hype phase.
Thank you for the info . I don't mind them being a separate index, but I'm disappointed that the FW Legends is being applied to CSM but not regular SM.
Did I miss something? I still don't see legends. Well, I see all this Forge World stuff and Horus Heresy which is great, but what about my poor Orky Wartrakks and Big Gunz?
Is it time for me to give up and start kitbashing? LOL
Dekskull wrote: Did I miss something? I still don't see legends. Well, I see all this Forge World stuff and Horus Heresy which is great, but what about my poor Orky Wartrakks and Big Gunz?
Is it time for me to give up and start kitbashing? LOL
Dekskull wrote: Did I miss something? I still don't see legends. Well, I see all this Forge World stuff and Horus Heresy which is great, but what about my poor Orky Wartrakks and Big Gunz?
Is it time for me to give up and start kitbashing? LOL
Pretty much it seems.
They said that the Legends stuff was coming 'soon' after the release of 10th, i'd not say that it got squatted just yet. Have a little patience, stuff won't be good anyway.
).
This is a very good point, to use 9e as an example the Custodes codex released new rules regarding keywords on [Auric] weapons, so all the 
. I don't mind them being a separate index, but I'm disappointed that the 
