So I'll kick this off.

Ill leave the unit rating to better minds (aka those with more time to do it).

I'm trying to put together a very quick TAC list, 1000pts. I've not played a game yet or even read the rules 🤣!

So far, I'm looking at:

Master of Possession with Elixur
Huron Blackheart

10 Cultists (Grenade Launcher)

5 Chosen (PP, PF, 2 combi weapons), Undivided
5 Chose (same as above), Nurgle
10 Possessed (icon), Slaanesh
5 Noise Marines (BM, 3xSB, 1 SB & PF)

2 Obliterators, Tzeentch.

I believe Huron is a fairly decent mobility support with his redeploy ACS one time movement buff, although I am considering other units

The possessed offer a big threat that can clap a few units and punch up against more.
The master of Possession will support the possessed with a bit of durability, character sniping and also force battleshock, whilst giving a little movement boost.

The chosen offer flexible reactions and some mid damage output.

Cultists are a little chaff but sticky objectives might make them a pest.

The noise marines bring a bit of cheap firepower but also can force a BS test.

Finally, the Oblits can help with anti tank or anything else lol.

I said this in the other thread, but I think Tzeentch Oblits will be very good. I am going to take 4 of them as resurrecting one a turn could be very hard for many opponents to deal with.

I also think a 20 man squad of Cultists lead by the Dark Commune could actually be good. Go Tzeentch for the lethal hits on 5+ and it makes the auto guns pretty useful against anything that doesn't have a 2+ save, and they get a 5++ from the commune I believe, which will make removing them at least take some effort. If only there was a d3+3 resurrection strat. I hope when the codex comes out there is a lost and the damned detachment focusing on all the non-CSM units. I think that could be really fun.

I think that I would like to try a more cultist focused force, especially with a small Abaddon support blob.

I want to explore some of the unnamed HQ options a bit more, especially to see if the DP has any real legs on a pt for pt basis.

There is several things I'm exited for with the new CSM.
I am definitely going to field a unit of 4 Obliterators with mark of Nurgle.
The stratagem DARK OBSCURATION is activated after the enemy targets them (wasting all the shots!), and then the rest of the enemies need to be within 12 to shot at them.

I will also try out the cheap noise marines, I feel like they punch way above their weightclass comming in at 85 pts for a squad of 5.

And I will experiment with a 10 man unit of slaanesh possessed with a MOP running in from reserves. They will hopefully punish, or keep the enemies scared of going out on the flanks.

I am somewhat disappointed that Abaddon is an auto include. Not because he's that great, but because none else really can compete. Unless maybe a chaos lord of Nurgle in terminator armour with a terminator unit, to spam DARK OBSCURATION on two units pr turn...

 Wibe wrote:
The stratagem DARK OBSCURATION is activated after the enemy targets them (wasting all the shots!), and then the rest of the enemies need to be within 12 to shot at them.

"Can't be targeted" from Dark Obscuration starts after the first unit has already targeted. The first unit doesn't lose it's targeting and can (indeed, must) continue shooting the Oblits, but no further units would be able to shoot them.

I thought so as well, until I read the rules commentary pdf. Page 5:

"Eligible Target (no longer eligible): If a unit that was an eligible target of an attack or charge when it was selected stops being an eligible target for that attack or charge (for example, because a rule enables it to make an out-of-phase move that takes it out of range), the attacking or charging unit can select new targets for those attacks or that charge. See Just After."


I see I forgot mentioning placing them in such a position that the enemy hopefully would move into a position where they could only target the unit with the stratagem, and then effectively wasting the shots.

So, you can take CSM without taking any actual CSM (aside from vehicles).

The real question is, is that a good idea? I'm guessing the answer is "No" simply due to the Buffs the different characters give?

Arcanis161 wrote:
So, you can take CSM without taking any actual CSM (aside from vehicles).

The real question is, is that a good idea? I'm guessing the answer is "No" simply due to the Buffs the different characters give?

Rather, why would you even want to do that ? The stats aren't that good for anything beyond objective camping and throwing cheap bodies around. Far from what would be a "true" LatD army.

Accursed Cultists with Dark Communes seem pretty potent to me. Tzeentch Cultist Mobs with 5+ lethal hits are an interesting idea, too. I don't think there's quite enough support for a full LatD army but a Word Bearers-style army where most of what you have is mortal cults is probably a real thing.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Accursed Cultists with Dark Communes seem pretty potent to me. Tzeentch Cultist Mobs with 5+ lethal hits are an interesting idea, too. I don't think there's quite enough support for a full LatD army but a Word Bearers-style army where most of what you have is mortal cults is probably a real thing.

Oh I agree. A cultist heavy army Word Bearer style is totally doable ! I'd even say the biggest obstacle to me doing so is how mono-pause the Accursed Cultist is. Even when you have just two units of them side by side it's less "attack of the cultists" and more "attack of the clones"

Is it just me, or is the option to give a power fist to a Terminator Lord absent on the app?

Had my first game with the opening list. Eldar... not a hugely optimized list but packing a crap ton of Brightlances.

They had a Wave Serpent, Guardians, War Walker, Viper, Farseer, 5 Wraithguard, a Wraithlord, two units of wind runners and a couple of spirit seers.

Seemed to do well and I tabled the Eldar turn 3 with a 1VP lead.

We went up to 1100pts, so I added 3 bikers to my list.

The noise marines were useful but the Blastmaster was definitely the star as I think the sonic blasters did a total of 4 wounds in 3 turns (against Eldar jet bikes and one turn shooting a war walker) whilst the BM did about 15 across the war walker, bikes and a wave serpent. Worth their 85pts imho.

The obliterators I need to test more. Their shooting bounced the a wave serpent for two turns only doing 4 wounds, though my opponent did get lucky with their 5++. I ran them as Tzeentch as I felt the sustained hits and the ability to ressurrect one was interesting.

Possessed were incredible and really brought it home; however, they do struggle against high toughness targets, even with lethal hits. I burnt their Dev wounds to 1-turn KO the wraithlord. It took 8 of the possessed two rounds of combat to chew through 4 Wraithguard even with lethal hits though; not an unbalanced result I hasten to add, just a note. Possessed were slaanesh, very useful with them.

Chosen I have mixed feelings about. For the extra 15pts, on paper they seem better than regular legionnaires but they didn't do much at all other than absorb firepower. Absorbed a little fire but ultimately their damage output and resilience were very... middling? I guess the Eldar did take out one of my units in turn 1 with brightlance death. I had one nurgle and one undivided unit.

Huron was my MVP, though I did get lucky with his 4++ against five, yes five, successive brightlance shots lmao. His redeploy is exceptionally useful and massively mitigated my opponents ability to alpha strike. With a melee squad, the free move is also useful. His sweep also devastated the guardians in one turn of combat.

Bikers were good. They were quick and helped get to objectives and secondaries, though the eldar player largely ignored them as they had 10 possessed and a MOP in their lines to worry about quite quickly. I went for the bikers over Raptors as they were tougher. I used them as Undivided.

If someone could give me some solid citations that reinforce the concept of Abaddon giving his bodyguard all 4 of his marks (and thus oodles of sustained and lethal hits) that would be appreciated. It seems too strong but I see a lot of people saying this is the case online (reddit and such…) But I cant really see in the rules where he would pass on those mark bonuses.

Unit is considered to have all the keywords all the models have. So any ability that depends on unit(not model) have keyword works.

Now I don't play CSM and don't know rule top of my head but as long as benefit doesn't read "all models in unit with keyword X get Y" or similar it works. Key distinction is that for it to work it has to refer MODEL. Not unit.

Model gives keywords to unit but not to other models.

Abaddon can join unit with any Chaos Marks, but he does not grant all 4 marks to such unit models (or other Keywords) No such special rule on him, or Leader rule.

Would Legionaires with mark of Nurge obtain Tzeentch keyword from Abaddon? Of course not. That would be ... Heresy! : )

Models don't pet keyword but unit counts as having all keywords each model have. So yes if abbadon leads nurgle legionaries UNIT counts as also having khorne, slaanesh and tzeentch marks.

Thus any rule that buffs un#t with mark of tzeentch works. Rule that requires model to have mark of tzeentch would only applw to abbadon.

As the rule says unit with following keyword it works.

Does "Attached Unit" get all keywords from attached "Leader" then ?

So unit with Abaddon would get "warlord" keyword also? Epic hero also?

A unit has all the keywords of all its models. An attached unit is treated as a single unit for all rules purposes. Individual models however dont get all keywords. Abaddon doesnt transfer tzeentch to nurgle terminator models.

 Xyxel wrote:
Does "Attached Unit" get all keywords from attached "Leader" then ?

So unit with Abaddon would get "warlord" keyword also? Epic hero also?

Unit has all the keyworas yes.

There's no keyword warlord.

As funny as it sounds yes epic hero. Not that there' in game rule that applies to epic heroes. If you are trying to claim max 1 that fails as restriction is during list writing while Abbadon is put to unit post-list writing.

Ok, so by that logic Legionaires would also get "terminator" keyword from leading Abaddon.

Select one Character model from your army to be your Warlord – this will be the leader of your army – and make a note of this on your Army Roster. Your Warlord gains the Warlord keyword.

page 56

With all stratagems for specific Marks allowed 10 Terminators with Abaddon sounds awesome : )

Yes. Not that unit gets much benefit from terminator keyword.

There's reason abbadon + 10 terminators so popular. Or why having single fly/psychic model in unit has drawback at exposing whole unit to anti-fly or anti-psyker abilities.

Thanks for clarity on the marks all. It struck me as quite overpowered. However in my last 1k game, my 5x Termie + Abby unit failed to dispatch a simple Intercessor squad with shooting lol, so maybe it's not *horrifically* overpowered.

What are people taking for anti-big things? I would have thought Defilers would be a decent pick because of their good Melee, decent shooting, and their ability to move over a bunch of terrain (due to the new terrain rules), but everything I'm hearing is that they’re mediocre at best and Venomcrawlers are rated better...for some reason. Oblits I can see, but what else?

Undivided Havocs with lascannons and Obliterators?
With sustained hits from Dark Pacts and 1-rerolls.

Possesed with devastating strikes for close combat?

 Xyxel wrote:
Undivided Havocs with lascannons and Obliterators?
With sustained hits from Dark Pacts and 1-rerolls.

I have no tried the Havocs yet.

In terms of the Obliterators, I think it's a toss up between the re-roll 1 to hit for Undivided or the Tzeentch with the sustained and the survivability the strat can bring. I can see a bigger unit (or a smaller one in a smaller game) benefitting from the Tzeentch as you'll likely be around to resurrect a model and the weight will get a good boost from the easier sustained.

Smaller units will likely benefit from the enhanced reliability as will the unit if you're going tank hunting and wanting the harder hitting, fewer shots. So perhaps opponent would dictate...

It's the re-roll 1's vs 1CP revive and 5+ sustained.

Outside dark horse could be Nurgle Marked. The stealth/no shoot from over 12" combined with giving their lower strength profiles lethal hits on a 5+ could be interesting.

 Xyxel wrote:
Possesed with devastating strikes for close combat?

Literally devastating. They've killed anything they've charged when the devastating is happening but they suffer against tough units otherwise so Lethal hits are probably necessary. Otherwise sustained (as you'll likely run as Slannesh, so you'll get them on 5+).

Are Rhinos worth taking? I've heard that some of the new rules, such as terrain rules, make them pointless.

Anyone try a cultist heavy list yet? Typed this one out pretty quick and with over 200 bodies on the table f
it definitely has swarming potential. While it will probably get shot off the table it's likely to dominate the objective game in the early turns lmk what you all think.

So... couple of surprising things.

1) Possessed marked with Khorne can do some work with massed lethal hits on 5+, in addition to devastating wounds. I was able to pull off a charge with 5 man unit to Mortarian, and they knocked him down to 4 wounds left. O.o

2) Hadescannon Forgefield, w/ plasma cannon, marked with Tzeench did amazing work. Was able to massively whittle down a large squad of deathshroud in one turn.

3) Hellbrutes seems worth it, giving units both darkpacts (lethal/sustained).

4) I'm going to try a six 5-man Noisemarines, all kitted out to try to leverage the Hellbrute (lethal/sustained darkpacts. They seem like a great take-all-comers unit.

5) Anyone else finding surprisingly effective CSM units?

Mad_Proctologist wrote:
Anyone try a cultist heavy list yet? Typed this one out pretty quick and with over 200 bodies on the table f
it definitely has swarming potential. While it will probably get shot off the table it's likely to dominate the objective game in the early turns lmk what you all think.

Spoiler:

For The Dark Gods!!!1!!1!!(1990 points)
Chaos Space Marines
Strike Force (2000 points)
Slaves to Darkness


CHARACTER

Dark Apostle (85 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Khorne
• 1x Dark Apostle
• Warlord
• 1x Accursed crozius
1x Bolt pistol
• 2x Dark Disciple
• 2x Close combat weapon


BATTLELINE

Cultist Mob (110 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Autopistol
1x Brutal assault weapon
• 19x Chaos Cultist
• 2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
13x Close combat weapon
13x Cultist firearm
2x Cultist grenade launcher
2x Flamer
2x Heavy stubber

Cultist Mob (110 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Autopistol
1x Brutal assault weapon
• 19x Chaos Cultist
• 2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
13x Close combat weapon
13x Cultist firearm
2x Cultist grenade launcher
2x Flamer
2x Heavy stubber

Cultist Mob (110 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Autopistol
1x Brutal assault weapon
• 19x Chaos Cultist
• 2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
13x Close combat weapon
13x Cultist firearm
2x Cultist grenade launcher
2x Flamer
2x Heavy stubber

Cultist Mob (110 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Khorne
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Autopistol
1x Brutal assault weapon
• 19x Chaos Cultist
• 13x Autopistol
13x Brutal assault weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Cultist grenade launcher
2x Flamer
2x Heavy stubber

Cultist Mob (110 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Khorne
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Autopistol
1x Brutal assault weapon
• 19x Chaos Cultist
• 13x Autopistol
13x Brutal assault weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Cultist grenade launcher
2x Flamer
2x Heavy stubber

Cultist Mob (110 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Khorne
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Autopistol
1x Brutal assault weapon
• 19x Chaos Cultist
• 13x Autopistol
13x Brutal assault weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Cultist grenade launcher
2x Flamer
2x Heavy stubber


OTHER DATASHEETS

Accursed Cultists (190 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Khorne
• 10x Mutant
• 10x Blasphemous appendages
• 6x Torment
• 6x Hideous mutations

Accursed Cultists (190 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Khorne
• 10x Mutant
• 10x Blasphemous appendages
• 6x Torment
• 6x Hideous mutations

Accursed Cultists (190 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Khorne
• 10x Mutant
• 10x Blasphemous appendages
• 6x Torment
• 6x Hideous mutations

Helbrute (155 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Missile launcher
1x Twin lascannon

Helbrute (155 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Missile launcher
1x Twin lascannon

Helbrute (155 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Missile launcher
1x Twin lascannon

Traitor Guardsmen Squad (70 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
• 1x Traitor Sergeant
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Corrupted pistol
• 9x Traitor Guardsmen
• 9x Close combat weapon
1x Cultist grenade launcher
6x Lasgun
1x Meltagun
1x Plasma gun

Traitor Guardsmen Squad (70 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
• 1x Traitor Sergeant
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Corrupted pistol
• 9x Traitor Guardsmen
• 9x Close combat weapon
1x Cultist grenade launcher
6x Lasgun
1x Meltagun
1x Plasma gun

Traitor Guardsmen Squad (70 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
• 1x Traitor Sergeant
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Corrupted pistol
• 9x Traitor Guardsmen
• 9x Close combat weapon
1x Cultist grenade launcher
6x Lasgun
1x Meltagun
1x Plasma gun

Things to note:
1) unlike most units, traitor guard are actually allowed to field a matched trio of specialist weapons. This might go away at some point but whilst you can it's the best way to use them.
2) don't sleep on Dark Commune as a Cultist Mob leader. They're less points than a Dark Apostle and give the squad a 5++ invulnerable. Plus, their Dark ritual gives +1 to hit AND +1 to wound AND advance and charge. Yes it only lasts 1 turn but how long do you really expect Cultists to hang around once the stabbing starts? Also, the bonus to hit and wound applies to shooting too if you want to attach a commune to the tzeenchian gunline units instead.

Arcanis161 wrote:
What are people taking for anti-big things? I would have thought Defilers would be a decent pick because of their good Melee, decent shooting, and their ability to move over a bunch of terrain (due to the new terrain rules), but everything I'm hearing is that they’re mediocre at best and Venomcrawlers are rated better...for some reason. Oblits I can see, but what else?

I had a 4x lascannon havoc squad, land raider with soulshatters + heavy bolter, a lascannon + krak missile launcher helbrute and abby all clustered together at the start of my game yesterday, between the combined auras of abby’s hit re-rolls and helbrute’s dual dark pacts, I got first turn and shot a 555 point Knight Tyrant off the table. It was a stellar combination and one thats going to be hard to give up going forward.

So, had my first game with CSM. It was against another CSM list. I am not a fan of mirror matches but I think there were some interesting tidbits. My list was as follows:

Lord Discordant, SL
2 x Venom Crawlers, SL
Master of Possession, UN
10 x Possessed, UN
4 x Obliterates, TZ
Dark Commune, TZ
20 x cultists with GL/HS x2, TZ
Lord with Accursed Weapons, KH
10 x Chosen, KH
Landradier, TZ
10 x Traitor Guard with ML, PL, and FL, TZ

I don't see anything in the rules that prevents a unit from being transported by a unit with a different mark (please point it out if that is not correct, although I am going to post in rules area too). So chosen and lord were in the LR, and the obliterators and the cultists were in reserve.

He had 3 hellbrutes, two havocs, Abadon and 10 terminators, some warpsmiths, 4 obliterators and a predator with a plasma turret.

I went first. It was a really lethal battle, but overall I won because his army was more of a gun line, and I secured the middle objectives early and just scored a bunch of points on primary. Personally I have seen this weakness for IG gun lines as well, if you can survive and take objectives, then they are pretty much screwed as they won't be able to catch you on the primary.

Thoughts on the Dark Pacts:
I like the mechanic, although I can see how swing-y it is. The [Lethal Hits]/[Sustain Hits1] really do add up though, especially with the triggering on a 5+. My opponent pointed out (I missed this) that the wording of the marks rule says if you pick that ability from the dark pact, "critical hits are scored on a 5+". There is no limiting language to only the ability selected. This normally doesn't matter, but some weapons, like heavy bolters, have [Sustained Hits 1] built it. Or more importantly, hellbrutes handing out both abilities. Due to the wording, if you are say Tzeentch and select [Lethal Hits], you now score criticals on 5+, so if you have a hellbrute near by giving [Sustained Hits 1] as well, you will trigger BOTH rules on a 5+. I don't see any RAW reason that would defeat that premise. If so that makes hellbrutes really really really good, especially with shooting armies. His four LC havocs with both sustained and lethal on 5+ were pretty brutal.

Thoughts on my units:

Lord Discordant, SL- This guys is way overpriced when you compare him to a daemon prince. His attacks are far less powerful, and he has basically the same defensive stats, plus no fly. His abilities are cute, but the one that stops enemy shooting is so short ranged and so easy for the opponent to avoid that it might as well not exist, and only affects vehicles. The re-rolls to wound, again are to short of a range, only works on vehicles, and again might as well not exist. I love the model so I am going to keep playing him, but without a major points cut (like to 190 like a DP) he is no where near competitive, and even at that point cost would still not compete well with the DP.

2 x Venom Crawlers, SL- These guys were pretty cool. Their shooting attacks can do some damage, especially with sustained hits. They are a bit easy to kill however, but that might have just been a function of how much AT my opponent had. Did not get to see them in CC. Next time I think I am going to focus on making them nurgle or tzeentch for the advantage in the shooting as opposed to CC.

Master of Possession, UN leading 10 x Possessed, UN- Holly broken of brokenness batman. First the MoP is really good all rounder with the +1 advance/charge, plust 6+++. I think he is a must take on a unit if you have a unit to attach him to, and you should because you should have possessed. With mark of undivided and the strat to re-roll hits and wounds, their damage output is bonkers. They killed two hellburtes, two warpsmiths, and a unit of havocs. They are so fast. They are also pretty hard to kill with anything that is not d3 and multi-shot. They are pricey, and I can see some matchups where they won't be as good, if the opponent has the rights tools to deal with them, but if they get into the lines, forget about it. These will probably be in every list I make.

4 x Obliterates, TZ- I was really excited about this unit, but it was kind of a let down. It is very expensive, so starting off the board and losing a round of shooting is not great. Also once they arrive they are not going anywhere with only a 4 inch move. I did not even get to use their trick to regenerate as they appeared, took an objective for two turns, then were promptly eviscerated by Abaddon. The shooting seemed good with auto wounds, but I think 4 is to many eggs in one basket. I am going to try two next time.

Dark Commune, TZ leading 20 x cultists with GL/HS x2, TZ- This is another unit I was excited to try. I put them in reserve so they could appear on a flank. The DC ability to give +1 to hit and wound for a turn is helpful, as is the lethal hits. Due to the possessed sweeping a flank clear, their only target was the predator. So, I shot at it full boat (the GLs finshed off a weak vehicle) and with the +1 to hit and wound and the lethal on 5+ scored like 14 wounds. However he passed all but 2 saves. I think there is potential for their shooting, but against 2+ or 3+, it is going to require the opponent to get unlucky on the saves. However, the 5++ the DC grants is great as it really makes this unit hard to remove with anything that is not just a carp ton of shots. I am definitely going to use them again.


Lord with Accursed Weapons, KH leading 10 x Chosen, KH- So these guys got the first charge out of the landraider into Abaddon's unit and killed a few terminators, then promptly got smashed by Abbadon. The lord did not seem to be worth it at all as he does not have a great CC weapon option. This unit put out a whole lot of attacks and I can see it being better against a lot of targets, but not sure yet if it is worth the points.

Landradier, TZ- I like landraiders as they are pretty tough, and with CSM (as opposed to my TS) they can really benefit from the [lethal hits]. Again my opponent had a lot of AT, so he did take this down in like turn 2, but I did fail a bunch of 4+ saves, so I think I was a bit unlucky. I might try a Rhino to deliver the Chosen, but not sure what to take with the rest of the points, probably need more AT.

Tratior Guard, TZ- they sat on a back objective and scored points. Pretty much what they are for.

Overall I like CSM, looking forward to my next game.


\

Correct on 5+ thing.

Yea someone else agreed in the rules form. I mean that makes a hellbrute an auto take in any gun line type list in my opinion

 xeen wrote:
Yea someone else agreed in the rules form. I mean that makes a hellbrute an auto take in any gun line type list in my opinion

100%

I have contemplated bringing two forgefiends & a helbrute, they *just* squeeze into the allowable reserve limit. Imaging bringing them out on a table edge within 36" to erase whatever it is you need erased.

Kangarupe wrote:

 xeen wrote:
Yea someone else agreed in the rules form. I mean that makes a hellbrute an auto take in any gun line type list in my opinion

100%

I have contemplated bringing two forgefiends & a helbrute, they *just* squeeze into the allowable reserve limit. Imaging bringing them out on a table edge within 36" to erase whatever it is you need erased.

Yea that would be a very good tactic as you would not be losing the [Devastating Wounds] with the lethal hits as you would also be getting [Sustained Hits 1] on 5's as well. I have been thinking of getting some forgefiends (I can't actually believe I don't have any as I have been playing since 2nd) as they are really good for CSM and also pretty good for TS


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just bought on on ebay right now

 xeen wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:

 xeen wrote:
Yea someone else agreed in the rules form. I mean that makes a hellbrute an auto take in any gun line type list in my opinion

100%

I have contemplated bringing two forgefiends & a helbrute, they *just* squeeze into the allowable reserve limit. Imaging bringing them out on a table edge within 36" to erase whatever it is you need erased.

Yea that would be a very good tactic as you would not be losing the [Devastating Wounds] with the lethal hits as you would also be getting [Sustained Hits 1] on 5's as well. I have been thinking of getting some forgefiends (I can't actually believe I don't have any as I have been playing since 2nd) as they are really good for CSM and also pretty good for TS

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just bought on on ebay right now

Absolutley! Their only downside is the potential self destruction. With 3 ectoplasma cannons, you're taking 3 hazardous rolls if you avail yourself of their specialty devastating wounds ability...flat 3 damage PER fail for a vehicle

42% chance of at least one roll of 1
17% chance of 1s on any of the dice
28% chance of failing dark pacts roll (excluding any Abaddon re-roll leaderships & dark pact Warmaster aura...which you almost certainly wouldn't be doing because you'd be silly not to give them re-roll hits aura instead)

Like I said though, those cannons are pretty vicious, you'd only run hazardous if you're *really* trying to destroy something super tough.

Won a game against Tau over the weekend. We used the newer terrain rules which hurt us both (me moreso because I took Predators and a Vindicator). The Cultists definitely carried that game:

-my opponent mostly took Stealth Suits, Ghostkeels, and Pathfinders, and focused mostly on my vehicles

-I was able to bait my opponent's deployment with the Cultists, and managed to remove half of his Turn 1 shooting with the Dark Obscuration strategem on my Mark of Nurgle Vindicator. This stratagem also helped the vehicles (and even some cultists) later in the game

-I took five units of Mark of Tzeentch Cultists, so there were too many bodies for the Tau player to deal with, and the Vehicles were too durable for him to take out.

-The chip damage of the Mark of Tzeentch Cultists really helped to whittle down the enemy enough for the Vehicles to finish off and vice-versa.

Another CSM player next to me with a far more competitive list (3x2 Obliterators, 3 Venomcrawlers, 10 Possessed, 10 Warp Talons, Maulerfiend, and other stuff I don't remember) got beat down hard against Orks, but both were singing praises of the Warp Talons, so that’s what I'll make and try out next, especially since I have what I think to be an awesome model idea for them that doesn't use any CSM models or bits.

Dark Obscuration on the heavy hitting long range units is a real headache for your opponent… I’ve used it with great effectiveness in many of my games.

I’ve also found it to be a doozy on transports to get your boys up field a little more safely. Chosen go *squish*

So I had a game against Chaos daemons, Slannesh, and some allied wardogs. His list was 6 units of daemonettes with assorted characters leading them, a soulgrinder, three wardogs, a chariot, and the mask.

My list was as follows:
Master of possession leading
10 x possessed undivided
5 x warp talons slan
Dark Commune leading
20 x cultist mob Tz
4 x obliterates Tz
10 x traitor guardsmen Tz
Forgefiend undiv
warpsmith undiv
Daemon prince with wings sl (WL with enhancment)
Lord Discordant
2 x venom crawlers Nu

I ended up winning by 5 points but it came right down to the wire as he scored a lot early, but I was able to dominate the primaries late.

Thoughts on Units:
Master of possession leading 10 x possessed undivided- Once again this unit proves how unbelievably broken [devastating wounds] is. They marched up the middle and just dominated taking out several units and characters. The undivided re-roll everything is bonkers. They are also pretty resilant with 3 wounds each, and the 6+++ from the MoP. I think this unit is a must take and if I was going competitive I would bring two or three of these.

5 x warp talons slan- I made a mistake with these guys and charged a unit with fight first and they got butchered on turn 1. So I did not get a really good bead on these guys. They are fast and so can cover objectives quickly, but they may be a bit over priced for that.

Dark Commune leading 20 x cultist mob Tz- I am really liking this unit. All told it is 165 points and it definitely one me this game. I put it in reserve then appear on a flank near an objective (most games have at least one objective close to a flank), and pop their once per game ability on the turn they arrive. They are not a really deadly unit, but they can put out some damage with the [lethal hits] on 5+, but more importantly they are good at taking an objective, then it is sticky so they can move forward and use the large foot print to block the objective if necessary. with the 5++ from the dark commune they are hard to chew through with all but the most massed blast shooting. I highly recommend trying this unit out.

4 x obliterates Tz- They are did some damage this game killing a wardog, then taking an objective, but I still think they are just to expensive for what they do. And it really sucks because I think 4 is to many, and 2 is not enough and we can't take 3. I think I am going to try a unit of two, or may two units of two. I am not sure what to do with these guys.

10 x traitor guardsmen Tz- they sat in the back, held the home objective then promptly died when charged. The 5+ [lethal hits] was helpful, but these guys are ok, but I probably won't use them next battle as now I have the forgefined in the back to hole the rear objective.

Forgefiend undiv near warpsmith undiv- I am putting these guys together as they basically operated as one unit with the warpsmith healing and giving +1 to hit to the forgefiend. This thing is really good, and if I was going full competitive I would bring three. Again the [devastating wounds] is ridiculous, especially with the full re-rolls. I will say though he did a crap ton of damage to himself with hazardous and the dark pact failures, but the healing helped. Also my opponent focus fire more on the other vehicles, so did not get a good sense of his durability, but I don't think it is going to be all that good.

Daemon prince with wings sl- He had the 5+++ enhancment, so was really hard to kill. I really like this unit, it is really fast (14' move with SL) and hits really hard with his mortal wound charge and then the 5+ [sustained hits]. I will say he will probably struggle against high T and high Sv units, but that is what the obliterators and forgefiend is for.

Lord Discordant- Once again this guy is to many points for what he does. He just does not have enough attacks with his main weapon. The winged daemon prince is better in every way and is like 30 points cheaper. This is my favorite model in the game so I will probably keep running him, but he needs a price cut or some more attacks.

2 x venom crawlers Nu- These guys are pretty solid. Not meta rocking but kind of like a small unit of troops, ok damage, ok survival, ok price. The hellbrute is probably better for about the same price due to his special rule, but I think these guys have a place after you build your main block of units. They are pretty fast so can get in the enemy lines quickly and that kind of takes the pressure off other units as these guys need to be dealt with.

Hope this was helpful.

 xeen wrote:
So I had a game against Chaos daemons, Slannesh, and some allied wardogs. His list was 6 units of daemonettes with assorted characters leading them, a soulgrinder, three wardogs, a chariot, and the mask.

Really interesting run down. There's no doubt that the possessed rock and that they're super tough, and with the MoP it gets even better. However, I play a lot of shooty opponents and even with their toughness, I find the possessed to be targets of high interest to my opponents. Even with advance and charge it can be tricky getting them up the field unmolested. Tack on oaths of moments from marines, and the quantity of blast weapons right now...I just don't know. Even worse, how much overwatch people seem to be doing not that you don't have to be charged to pop it off. Further play will be required. Against a daemon list though, they're definitely savage.

I think I've decided the warpsmith isn't quite worth it...healing up to D3 just isn't sufficient with the amount of self harm the forgefiend can do (as you've pointed out). I feel like they must just be better to run solo. Then once the fiend is dead you've got a fairly useless character sitting out in the lurch who has lost his lone operative and you KNOW they're going to try and kill the fiend.

20x cultists mob led by commune, this is interesting! What made you want to roll with them over the accursed cultists. I find them to be so goddamn tough to erase, it pleases me greatly .

Kangarupe wrote:

 xeen wrote:
So I had a game against Chaos daemons, Slannesh, and some allied wardogs. His list was 6 units of daemonettes with assorted characters leading them, a soulgrinder, three wardogs, a chariot, and the mask.

Really interesting run down. There's no doubt that the possessed rock and that they're super tough, and with the MoP it gets even better. However, I play a lot of shooty opponents and even with their toughness, I find the possessed to be targets of high interest to my opponents. Even with advance and charge it can be tricky getting them up the field unmolested. Tack on oaths of moments from marines, and the quantity of blast weapons right now...I just don't know. Even worse, how much overwatch people seem to be doing not that you don't have to be charged to pop it off. Further play will be required. Against a daemon list though, they're definitely savage.

I think I've decided the warpsmith isn't quite worth it...healing up to D3 just isn't sufficient with the amount of self harm the forgefiend can do (as you've pointed out). I feel like they must just be better to run solo. Then once the fiend is dead you've got a fairly useless character sitting out in the lurch who has lost his lone operative and you KNOW they're going to try and kill the fiend.

20x cultists mob led by commune, this is interesting! What made you want to roll with them over the accursed cultists. I find them to be so goddamn tough to erase, it pleases me greatly .

Yea I could see if your opponent had a lot of D3 shooting coming your way that could hurt them. Competitively I would take two units, and quite frankly, even reduced to 5 models they are still pretty deadly. You can always use the strat to give them stealth as well, and since they are infantry you can hide them in ruins as well.

I agree, I only use the warpsmith because I needed to fill the points, and I only own one forgefiend anyway. Running three would definitely be the way to go.

I used the regular cultists because quit frankly I have a lot of them and I don't have any accursed cultists. I think the accursed cultists with the dark commune would be good, but the dark commune really does a lot for the regular cultists. Using the guns they can do some damage without having to rely on a 9 inch charge as well when they arrive on the flank. They make a great flanking unit because of their low cost, so you are not leaving points off the board doing nothing, i.e. Oblitorators. I suggest giving it a try (I assume everyone who plays CSM has at least 20 cultists with auto guns lol)

I'm curious how everyone has been marking their various units. Most of my collection has a World Eaters focus so most of my units are marked for Khorne.

I've been using Chaos Undivided with my Forgefiend to get the most out of Profane Zeal. For backfield objective holders Nurgle and Dark Obscuration are hard to pass up.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
I'm curious how everyone has been marking their various units. Most of my collection has a World Eaters focus so most of my units are marked for Khorne.

I've been using Chaos Undivided with my Forgefiend to get the most out of Profane Zeal. For backfield objective holders Nurgle and Dark Obscuration are hard to pass up.

Pretty much everything I have get's Nurgle, with a select unit or two getting Undivided (like the Forgefiend you mentioned.) I also run Huron in a squad of chosen, he's Undivided so they have to be too, despite my desire for them to be Khorne. The Dark Ob Strat gets used pretty much exclusively for Abaddon and his 10x terminators so the Nurgle mark everywhere else is mostly just so I can get Sustained 1s.

I like the thought of Tzeentch on Obliterators to shower the enemy in auto wounding Warp Hail shots and use the Skinshift strat, but I see a lot of people also running Nurgle on them...presumably for potential sustains on their very savage high damage profile weapons.

And the "can"t shoot from afar nyah nyah" stratagem.

Nurgle and Undivided (and Abaddon's why not all five) seem the stand outs. The obvious solution in past editions would be to lower the points costs of the other three options...

I'm liking the chip damage from Tzeench Cultists, as it allows them to do more than just be cheap bodies for objectives.

Otherwise yeah, Nurgle all the way.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
I'm curious how everyone has been marking their various units. Most of my collection has a World Eaters focus so most of my units are marked for Khorne.

I've been using Chaos Undivided with my Forgefiend to get the most out of Profane Zeal. For backfield objective holders Nurgle and Dark Obscuration are hard to pass up.

I run Possessed units in my list... usually 2x 5 man marked as Khorne and 1x 10man Undivided. I reserve the Profane Zeal strat on my 10man Possessed unit.

I bring 3 Forgefiends too, but mark my 1x Hadescannon as Tzeentch and my 2x Ectoplasma units as Nurgle. (These units are target numero uno for Wraithknight meta, so I need the "nuh uh" nurgle strat).

I went 4 and 2 in my last GT and my MVPs are almost always my Khorne Possessed units, as the sheer numbers of lethal hits can overwhelm units. These guys even "out melee'ed" a big Custodes melee unit.

Kangarupe wrote:
Pretty much everything I have get's Nurgle, with a select unit or two getting Undivided (like the Forgefiend you mentioned.) I also run Huron in a squad of chosen, he's Undivided so they have to be too, despite my desire for them to be Khorne. The Dark Ob Strat gets used pretty much exclusively for Abaddon and his 10x terminators so the Nurgle mark everywhere else is mostly just so I can get Sustained 1s.

I like the thought of Tzeentch on Obliterators to shower the enemy in auto wounding Warp Hail shots and use the Skinshift strat, but I see a lot of people also running Nurgle on them...presumably for potential sustains on their very savage high damage profile weapons.

Interesting, I'm surprised to hear Nurgle is so favored. I suppose Sustained Hits is very valuable on a lot of units in our index.

How are you kitting out your Chosen? I've only run Legionnaires so far and I've opted for volume of attacks with chainswords and Khorne marks thus far.

Arcanis161 wrote:I'm liking the chip damage from Tzeench Cultists, as it allows them to do more than just be cheap bodies for objectives.

Otherwise yeah, Nurgle all the way.

I'm really looking forward to trying a squad of Tzeentch Havocs with reaper chaincannons.

EightFoldPath wrote:Nurgle and Undivided (and Abaddon's why not all five) seem the stand outs. The obvious solution in past editions would be to lower the points costs of the other three options...

The Strats for Nurgle and Undivided are extremely good, but I find the Lethal Hits for Khorne and Tzeentch to be very useful, especially with how common and cheap high Toughness targets are. It's a nice bit of flexibility where S12+ weapons aren't a must have if you have units that can rock out tons of lethal hits.

whembly wrote:
I run Possessed units in my list... usually 2x 5 man marked as Khorne and 1x 10man Undivided. I reserve the Profane Zeal strat on my 10man Possessed unit.

I bring 3 Forgefiends too, but mark my 1x Hadescannon as Tzeentch and my 2x Ectoplasma units as Nurgle. (These units are target numero uno for Wraithknight meta, so I need the "nuh uh" nurgle strat).

I went 4 and 2 in my last GT and my MVPs are almost always my Khorne Possessed units, as the sheer numbers of lethal hits can overwhelm units. These guys even "out melee'ed" a big Custodes melee unit.

Are you also running Accursed Cultists? I was considering using those and possessed in a different army I'm building led by a Dark Commune and Master of Possession respectively.

Sorry to hear your meta is still Wraithknight heavy, I was hoping after the points bump and fate dice nerf they would be less oppressive. With 3 Forge Fiends what are you thoughts on having a shooty Hellbrute babysitting them with the aura?

Nice work on out-melee'ing the Custodes!

 The Red Hobbit wrote:


How are you kitting out your Chosen?

Undivided to run with Huron, 8x accursed weapons, 10x boltguns, 4x plasma pistols, 2x power fists

I got trucked by a Necron list last night though.... I'm taking Huron and his ability out and throwing a chaos lord in their now and putting either Khorne or Nurgle on the whole unit, probably Khorne for close combat loveliness?

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

whembly wrote:
I run Possessed units in my list... usually 2x 5 man marked as Khorne and 1x 10man Undivided. I reserve the Profane Zeal strat on my 10man Possessed unit.

I bring 3 Forgefiends too, but mark my 1x Hadescannon as Tzeentch and my 2x Ectoplasma units as Nurgle. (These units are target numero uno for Wraithknight meta, so I need the "nuh uh" nurgle strat).

I went 4 and 2 in my last GT and my MVPs are almost always my Khorne Possessed units, as the sheer numbers of lethal hits can overwhelm units. These guys even "out melee'ed" a big Custodes melee unit.

Are you also running Accursed Cultists? I was considering using those and possessed in a different army I'm building led by a Dark Commune and Master of Possession respectively.

Yup! In my GT list, I brought 6 five man noise marines. While I love those units, I wanna try cultist, accursed and rhinos for the cultist with my possessed. Its my next list.

Sorry to hear your meta is still Wraithknight heavy, I was hoping after the points bump and fate dice nerf they would be less oppressive.

If I get 1st turn, I have a fighting chance bringing it down with 3 forgefiends.

With 3 Forge Fiends what are you thoughts on having a shooty Hellbrute babysitting them with the aura?

I do bring 2 helbrutes in my list to buff my forgefiends! Worth it!

Nice work on out-melee'ing the Custodes!

Yeah, that was fun. I had to charge is big melee brick with 2x 5-man possessed units. He had the fight first ability and he thought he could destroy one unit and tank the other, so he allocated all hits to one of the units. That unit died, but I popped that fight on death strat, and ending up 8 models attacking with 32 dice. I had enormous lethal hits that nearly wiped the unit out (he had 3 models left). Possessed, again, has been my MVP unit in every game. That's because the Forgefiends takes so much attention initially, and folks are surprised how fast these units are.

My buddy wants to start an Emperor’s Children army. I was wondering what units in the Chaos index would be worth considering if you weren’t going to use Abaddon and probably only Mark of Slaanesh.

We looked at a lot of the stuff (lesser/greater demons of Slaanesh, Lucius, noise marines, cultists, oblits, possessed, etc. but I was wondering first off if there are any powerful options worth starting with. I know Abaddon is great, but outside of an undivided Black Legion force, what kind of good combos are there?

Iggy88 wrote:
My buddy wants to start an Emperor’s Children army. I was wondering what units in the Chaos index would be worth considering if you weren’t going to use Abaddon and probably only Mark of Slaanesh.

There is very likely to be an Emperors Children codex near the end of this edition, which will have:
- New Noise Marines with a new weapon that you can't use a blast master to proxy. (To be fair they should be a very nice model kit).
- New Juicesecrators (the first rule of Juicesecrators is do not ask about where the juice comes from) which will be big 50mm base daemon marine hybrids that are the best thing in the book (until 11th when they will mysteriously suck).
- Half of the current CSM kits will be cut from the codex. At random by throwing darts at a board at GW HQ. Even if they feel like they should fit in with the EC aesthetic.

So I would suggest your friend either build now in the full knowledge a few $100s worth of their plastic will become obsolete or wait a few years.

Collecting Slaanesh daemons only for now would make some sense, especially if the buddy enjoys the modelling and painting part as they can just focus on a slow build up.

He’s probably going to get 3d printed models for cheap, rather than going with GW minis.

But good to know about the likely changes.

I believe he’s looking at some noise marines with guitars, some generic daemonette knock offs, something to act as a keeper of secrets, and something to act as a demon prince of Slaanesh.

He’s looking for something to play in 10th. Not sure if he’s willing to wait until the end of 10th. His wych cult drukhari army got nerfed really hard and now he’s looking for something similar but tougher. He was starting a Space Wolves army, but now changed his mind and thinks Emperor’s Children will let him have a fast melee army like his wych cult, coupled with tougher, shootier units like marines.

But, I suppose it would be good to consider the possibility of him spending money on an army that’s going to be redesigned in a couple years. None of the other cult legions changed into anything unexpected though, so I imagine Emperor’s Children will get a codex that is mostly what you’d expect?

Kangarupe wrote:
I got trucked by a Necron list last night though.... I'm taking Huron and his ability out and throwing a chaos lord in their now and putting either Khorne or Nurgle on the whole unit, probably Khorne for close combat loveliness?

Is there a particular strat you plan on using for the Chaos Lord inclusion?

whembly wrote:
Yup! In my GT list, I brought 6 five man noise marines. While I love those units, I wanna try cultist, accursed and rhinos for the cultist with my possessed. Its my next list.

I keep forgetting we can put non-marines in a rhino. Now I'm considering 12 Negavolt Cultists in a Rhino.

I do bring 2 helbrutes in my list to buff my forgefiends! Worth it!

Interesting, do you have your backfield ordinance on only 2 objectives? For some reason I was imagining 3 forgefiends and a hellbrute on a single objective with good visibility.

Yeah, that was fun. I had to charge is big melee brick with 2x 5-man possessed units. He had the fight first ability and he thought he could destroy one unit and tank the other, so he allocated all hits to one of the units. That unit died, but I popped that fight on death strat, and ending up 8 models attacking with 32 dice. I had enormous lethal hits that nearly wiped the unit out (he had 3 models left). Possessed, again, has been my MVP unit in every game. That's because the Forgefiends takes so much attention initially, and folks are surprised how fast these units are.

Yeah the fight on death strat is great for large blobs. I think Forgefiends are the current boogieman but overtime people will realize just how strong possessed are. Especially with a MoP leading them.

EightFoldPath wrote:
- Half of the current CSM kits will be cut from the codex. At random by throwing darts at a board at GW HQ. Even if they feel like they should fit in with the EC aesthetic.

While I'm still salty about my pre-9th WE army being completely invalidated I think the part that bugs me the most is losing Exalted Champions as an HQ unit.

Yeah… the strat for the chaos lord is tricky. You want to go Nurgle to get a second freebie dark obscuration. But a *really* savvy opponent would target the Lord unit first making you burn through the Nurgle strat and thus not able to use it where you really want (Abby and terminators for me!) …ergo you wouldn’t pop it at all when targeted and go with something else. Khorne fight on death is great, tzeentch skinshift also good, but probably the AOC one is best? My lord leads a chosen unit in my list and they’re fairly squishy @ T4 and no natural invulnerable or feel no pain :/

So two weekends ago I had a game against Nids. He had a bunch of little bugs, a big squad of Carnifexs with old one eye, some other big bugs and some of the brain bugs.

The game went down to the wire, I won by 5 points due to his inability to kill my cultists to take them off the objective at the end. Here are my thoughts on units

My list was as follows:
Master of possession leading
10 x possessed undivided
5 x warp talons slan
Dark Commune leading
20 x cultist mob Tz
4 x obliterates Tz
10 x traitor guardsmen Tz
Forgefiend undiv
warpsmith undiv
Daemon prince with wings sl (WL with enhancment)
Lord Discordant
2 x venom crawlers Nu

Master of possession leading 10 x possessed undivided- This is the first game that they got punked. I was a bit two aggressive with them in the open, and then they failed a 7" charge with re-roll and were stuck out. They were then blasted by the brain bugs. What was left was finished by the Carnifexs which was their target. As someone said they do melt to D3 weapons pretty badly even with the 6+++. They were completely wasted this game.

Daemon prince with wings sl (WL with enhancment)- I made a huge error with this guy and charged into the Carnifexs unsupported. He did not even kill one of them. I do still like him, but he will struggle against high T and good armor units. I knew this but he was going to be in with the possessed, who failed their charge. His speed makes him a threat, but I think he needs to more bully units that can't really do melee or are not high T, rather than be a straight fighter against the opponents best units.

Lord Discordant - Wow this guy is just so bad. He needs like a 50 point price cut. His CC is worse than the DP for the most part, with the same T, W, Sv, and a lower invulnerable. It sucks because he is my favorite model, but he is getting the sideline for the next match.

5 x warp talons slan - these guys did a much better job this game. They harassed one flank, drew some shots from units due to their speed, and are petty kill-y against infantry. I think if you are looking for a small flank unit, maybe for actions and harassment, they can work.

2 x venom crawlers Nu- So lets start with that I think these guys are pretty solid mid-level all purpose vehicle. They have good number of shots, are decent tough, decent CC, pretty fast. However, this is all true with me using only half of their shooting attacks as I mis-read the card and though they only have 6 shots, not 12. With 12 shots I think these guys are maybe are worth considering for more competitive purposes. I can't wait to use them properly in my next game.

Forgefiend undiv with warpsmith undiv- yea forgefiend is great as everyone knows. The warpsmith is not really necessary and is coming out in my next list.

4 x obliterates Tz- they dropped in and killed most of the Carnifexs and then blocked the Carnifexs and fought them in CC. I like them with Tz as I was able to resurrect two of them over the court of the game, and [Lethal Hits] on 5+ was helpful with their big shots. I still think that 4 is to many and 2 is not enough though.

10 x traitor guardsmen Tz- One of his big bugs used Rapid Ingress to arrive 3" away from them and my back objective. However I got really lucky and the melta auto wounded, then he failed his save and I did 7 damage. I did 2 more with plasma then 2 more with just the laser rifles (5+ [Lethal Hits] baby) which put it down to only 3 wounds remaining, which I was able to finish off by firing only one cannon from the forgefiend, which could then fire the other cannons at other targets. Having the special weapons is nice for these guys. They are not going to be in a competitive list, but I think they are fun and decent in more fun lists maybe even like semi-competitive league games.

finally,

Dark Commune leading 20 x cultist mob Tz- I love this unit. I really think you could make a case to put it in Tournament style lists. I always bring it out of strategic reserve near one of the side objectives and use the special +1 hit/+1 wound ability when they arrive. They won me this game by grabbing the side objective and actually killing stuff. They killed a weakened 14 man termagunt squad, and finished off the brain bugs after they got hosed by the forgefiend. Quite frankly, anything that does not have a 2+ save they can do some damage to and anything that is like 4+ or 5+ they can really hurt. They have 32 shots in rapid fire range, 14 more heavy stubber shots, then two grenade lunchers, then the one psyker power all with [Lethal Hits] on a 5+. Then with the 5++ from the dark commune they can be a pain in the butt to clear without some major blast weapons. The whole set up is only 165 points. I still think the accursed cultists might be better (I don't own any so can't play them myself) but one of those and one of these coming in from reserve might be the way to go.

Hope this was helpful.

Great analysis of your battle, I've been considering a Brazen Beasts style list with some similar units so it's great to read your perspective.

Too bad for the Discolord, it's a great model and I was considering mine for the warlord for a daemon engine heavy list but he seems very poor for his points cost. I was actually considering a DP with Wings instead but based on your report it seems they are more fragile than I'd care for.

How are you running your Warp Talons? Rapid Ingress or something else? I've got 10 of them lying around I haven't used since 8th and I'd love to give them a purpose again.

For Traitor Guardsmen I had been using them with the Nurgle Mark in 1000pt games otherwise they kept getting blown off my backfield objective. I hadn't considered Tzeentch and the fact that 5+ Lethal Hits would work on Overwatch. I'm guessing you went with 2x Plasma and a Melta? I was doing 2x Snipers and a Plasma for mine, the Sniper Rifles are very potent this edition.

I need to finish painting my Dark Disciples but I'm greatly looking forward to using mine, although I think I'll be going with the Accursed Cultists to lead instead. Although a giant blob of cultists with Tz as you mentioned sounds very good as well and deadlier than you'd expect.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Great analysis of your battle, I've been considering a Brazen Beasts style list with some similar units so it's great to read your perspective.

Too bad for the Discolord, it's a great model and I was considering mine for the warlord for a daemon engine heavy list but he seems very poor for his points cost. I was actually considering a DP with Wings instead but based on your report it seems they are more fragile than I'd care for.

How are you running your Warp Talons? Rapid Ingress or something else? I've got 10 of them lying around I haven't used since 8th and I'd love to give them a purpose again.

For Traitor Guardsmen I had been using them with the Nurgle Mark in 1000pt games otherwise they kept getting blown off my backfield objective. I hadn't considered Tzeentch and the fact that 5+ Lethal Hits would work on Overwatch. I'm guessing you went with 2x Plasma and a Melta? I was doing 2x Snipers and a Plasma for mine, the Sniper Rifles are very potent this edition.

I need to finish painting my Dark Disciples but I'm greatly looking forward to using mine, although I think I'll be going with the Accursed Cultists to lead instead. Although a giant blob of cultists with Tz as you mentioned sounds very good as well and deadlier than you'd expect.

Have been running the Warptalons as a 5 man squad with Slannessh. I actually start them on the board behind LOS blocking ruins. Where I play the meta is very ruins heavy. Since they are infantry they can just move though the ruins, so don't waste movement going up and down and with slannesh they can advance and charge if necessary. I usually put them on a flank and then shoot up to an objective turn one, so they have to be dealt with or I will score points. They can bully light infantry and even small squads of marines as long as the marines are not close combat types. I am not sure how good a 10 man unit would be, they are a bit expensive for how fragile they are, and they can't take a leader to increase their combat effectiveness. I would be interested in hearing if 10 are any good.

For the guardsmen, I take a flamer, melta, plasma, but that is because that is what I have the squad modeled with. I would probably run all melta or all plasma if I wanted to make it more competitive. Yea with the guardsmen the [Lethal Hits] is much better than the [Sustained Hits] from nurgle. You might get more shots, but none of their weapons are that high of strength so the extra hits seem like they could end up wasted, where auto wounding, especially with melta against vehicles, almost guarantees damage. Also the [Lethal Hits] can make the lasgun shots dangerous against units with a bad save. This has been proven well with my cultist unit.

Yea I am on a break from buying WH right now, so no accursed cultists for me. But yes the tzeentch cultists can really punch up.

I like the idea of a daemon engine list, my next list is actually going to be that. I am hoping to play this Saturday. I am swapping out the warpsmith and the Disco Lord. I am adding a maulerfiend and a hellbrute. The hellburte is going to stay with the venomcrawlers giving them both [Lethal Hits] and [Sustained Hits] for their 12 shots, so I want to see how much damage the venomcrawlers can put out in that circumstance. I will post it when I can.

great analysis... conclusions on the Discordant are ones I share without having played him...just too expensive for a mediocre datasheet, I also wouldn't dream of fielding the prince in his current state either.

I'll be running a 4x obliterator squad myself on the next game, 4 of them may not be so bad. You know the enemy is going to hammer them once their on the board. Having that 4th may be what is required in order to squeeze of "skinshift" at least once...possible twice a game. I haven't achieved it yet but I imagine healing and bringing one back is quite demoralizing to your opponent.

Yeah there's a surprising amount of unit replenishment this edition, I'm all for it!

That's an interesting strategy with the Warp Talons, I like the idea of dumping a fast unit on an objective and forcing the enemy to deal with them, although getting shot off the board is certainly a concern. My last FLGS was very ruins heavy so I could imagine running that easily. Currently we have some more variety in terrain pieces and its a bit easier to establish LOS outside 24", but not always a guarantee as my forgefiend has learned.

I'm wondering if I've been misreading the flying rules. Although I admit, I only read it once since I don't often field fliers so my memory is a bit hazy. I had thought you only measure the vertical distance if you are starting or stopping on an elevated piece of terrain such as a wall? It sounds as though you have to measure (diagonally) all the time, is that correct?

For the traitor guard I chose Nurgle specifically for the stratagem, I found early on they were a very tempting target. I also opted for the high ground to let my Snipers get a better view.

Daemon Engines (and all tanks / walkers) are quite potent this edition. I'm considering 8 or more for my Brazen Beasts army, it'll be nice to bring out the murder crab defiler again. The scourge is looking rather potent and it can make it over terrain thankfully.

Yes fly got changed in 10th.

Bit of mixed back. It went from best ability "fly or be worthless" for big models to fairly minor buff(though not worthless) with danper of anti-fly X weapons.

What are people thinking about Terminators this edition? Picked up some Blightlords I’m converting as Word Bearers. Combi-weapons feel like a bit of a liability that’ll ping off of non-infantry. I’m thinking reaper & chainfist, 3 bolter & power fists, and twin claws, with a Lord, stomping up to midfield and bullying most units off of objectives, with a helbrute joining them for double pact (which has poor synergy with combi-weapons’ need for devastating wound rolls) and to help deal with big stuff.

tneva82 wrote:
Yes fly got changed in 10th.

Bit of mixed back. It went from best ability "fly or be worthless" for big models to fairly minor buff(though not worthless) with danper of anti-fly X weapons.

Ah, so even if you're not stopping on a terrain piece you still have to measure diagonally at all times?

Ah, I went and checked the Designer's commentary and indeed you do have to. I don't know why they couldn't just say that in the core rules...(same with minimum DMG 0)

Regarding Termies they are quite good this addition with +1T, +1W and a 4++ natively. Combis are free so I always run them with mine, if you need more volume of shots you can always put a reaper cannon on one of them. That said they aren't my first choice for dealing with Armor, instead I use mine to wipe out infantry and take distance objectives.

 lindsay40k wrote:
What are people thinking about Terminators this edition? Picked up some Blightlords I’m converting as Word Bearers. Combi-weapons feel like a bit of a liability that’ll ping off of non-infantry. I’m thinking reaper & chainfist, 3 bolter & power fists, and twin claws, with a Lord, stomping up to midfield and bullying most units off of objectives, with a helbrute joining them for double pact (which has poor synergy with combi-weapons’ need for devastating wound rolls) and to help deal with big stuff.

Update on this: I’ve spent some time mathhammering this.

Combi-bolters significantly outperform combi-weapons against Guard equivalent.

Against Marine equivalents, Combi-weapons are marginally better.

Against Terminator equivalents, Combi-weapons are far better - but five of them firing at close range are still unlikely to kill a whole Terminator.

Against Rhino equivalents, they are almost identical. Five of them firing at close range have an adequate chance of dealing a single wound.

Against Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts, combi-bolters are nearly useless, but five combi-weapons have an aquequate chance of inflicting a single wound.

But! what happens when we throw a prayer to Tzeentch into the mix? I didn’t run numbers for Nurgle - Sustained Hits 5+ is a very simple +33% damage multiplier. Lethal Hits 5+ is a bit more complicated.

Against Terminators, LH5+ doubles the effectiveness of combi-bolters; each Terminator firing one at close range will do 0.3W. Still not as effective as a combi-weapon without a DP. But it HALVES the effectiveness of combi-weapons! This is because a third of your shots lose their ability to punch through their armour. I’m going to say that if you’re firing combi-weapons at Terminators, you should basically never DP.

Against Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts, LH5+ makes no difference to a combi-weapon’s output. This is because you go from hoping to roll a 6 on your wound roll to hoping your opponent rolls a 1 to save. Now, if it’s a Terminator squad, the Dark Pact will give you re-rolls to hit, which equates to +25% damage, but for Tzeentch Chosen, it seems to be not worth it unless you’ve got a Helbrute giving you Sustained Hits as well. If you don’t have a Helbrute and need to reach for a clutch kill, go with Sustained Hits every time.

But if you’re firing a combi-bolter at a high T 2+ save target, LH5+ is a game-changer. Four Terminators firing them at close range will generally force these targets to fail a save. Not brilliant, but better than fishing for a 6 on your wound rolls.

We have a similar picture when shooting at MEQ’s with LH5+ - a combi-weapon’s effectiveness is reduced by almost a quarter, whereas a combi-bolter’s effectiveness rises by 50%, becoming 25% better at the job than a combi-weapon.

A combi-weapon shooting at GEQ gains almost no benefit from LH5+. A combi-bolter shooting at the same has its effectiveness increase by a quarter.

Against a Rhino, LH5+ more than triples a combi-bolter’s output. A terminator firing one at close range has a 52% chance of inflicting a wound. If he were doing it with a combi-weapon, his chances would increase by almost half has he not DP’d but he’d still inflict half as much damage as his brother with the combi-bolter.

Overall, I’m going to say that until we get combi-weapons with diverse profiles back again, combi-bolters are a better utility weapon, especially if you’re going with Nurgle and use Dark Pacts often. But the differences are largely marginal and Combi-weapons are not a complete loss, especially when you need to finish off a wounded Terminator or a couple of Intercessors, but against most targets I’m going to say the bolter wins..

Something I’ve noticed is Tzeentch heavy bolters can get SH & LH without a Helbrute marshalling them.With D2 AP-1 they can sting moderately hard targets.

On the subject of Dark Pacts, they make overwatch very interesting. I’ve won a game by getting multiple meltagun hits on a Primaris flame squad as it tried to move into position. Playing aggressively with my undivided Land Raider allowed it to consistently punish hard targets for challenging the centre of the table with two or four lascannon hits. (I can absolutely see the argument fro Nurgle, but my Berzerkers need their party van.)

Hey, I was wondering if there was a place for world eaters tactics, or at least some meta info for 10th.

I’m not expecting them to be competitive, but I was thinking of taking them off the shelf while I wait for my eldar army to be nerfed (hopefully soon).

Any info for how to make/start a world eaters force in 10th?

So I had a game against the Dark Angels. His list was mostly primaris (plasma blade guard intercessors etc.) Azerial, two redeptor dreads, a unit of the 6 jump primaris with guns, and of course the Lion.

The game went back and forth, but I was able to over come and win by 20, mostly based on what happened late game as I will explain below.

My list was as follows:
Master of possession leading
10 x possessed undivided
5 x warp talons slan
Dark Commune leading
20 x cultist mob Tz
4 x obliterates Tz
10 x traitor guardsmen Tz
Forgefiend undiv
Hellbrute
Daemon prince with wings sl
Maulerfiend
2 x venom crawlers Tz

This list is similar to the list I posted before, but I dropped the Lord Discordant and Warpsmith and was able to add a hellbrute and a maulerfiend.

Thoughts on units:

Master of possession leading 10 x possessed undivided- these guys did what they do, marching up the field and killing a ten man intercessor squad (only rolled half the attacks) then got charged by the Lion and actually manged to hold him up and put some wounds on him, before ultimatly being finished.

5 x warp talons slan- These guys just jumped up the field, then his jump pack gun guys came in an blasted them. It was actually good though as that prevented that very nasty squad from shooting something more valuable (these guys were going to take an objective if they survived), and allowed my forgefiend to finish off the jump guys. Overall I am not sold that these guys are really competitive, if they were slightly cheaper maybe for quick objective grabbers.


4 x obliterates Tz- these guys dropped in, took out a dreadnought, then finished off a few other units, and put some wounds on the Lion. This is the first game I felt they really excelled, but I had to waste a turn of shooting to advance them on the objective. That 4" move really hurts, and they are basically stuck where ever they arrive or deploy. Have to be really thoughtful of where they go.

10 x traitor guardsmen Tz- We played a special mission out of White Dwarf so there was no home objective, so these guys ventured forward and took one of the no-mans land objectives. They held it until turn 5 when they got killed in CC by a techmarine. The +1 save on the objective, with cover, makes them pretty sturdy against ap0 shooting, I was impressed. I still think they are a bit overpriced but the preformed solid.

Forgefiend undiv- yeah he sat in the back and threw out mortal wounds. He also did 7 wounds to himself, and was finally finished off in CC by Azerial. Expect these things to get a points nerf Thrusday.

Daemon prince with wings sl - I avoided the temptation to try to kill a dreadnought with this guy and targeted the blade guard. This is what he is good at, bulling elite infantry with 3 wounds. The -2 ap on his sword definitely is not helping, but this is the role for him if you bring him.

Maulerfiend- first game with the maulerfiend and I was not that impressed. It did make a long bomb 11" charge on turn one (with advance and charge strat) so that was cool, but it could not kill 5 Marines in CC. Now I did roll pretty bad for the main fists so that might be something, however the fists are only -2 ap. While I like the reduction in ap in this addition, something like giant fists used the break walls and tanks should probably still be -3. He actually made two or three of the 5+ saves, on a 5, so the lack of ap was telling. The lasher tendils are not nearly as good as before, only being D1, but I don't know if the two melta pistol shots are better. I don't think he is competitive, but fast and can get a turn one charge off pretty easy if your opponent moves into the mid-board. I am going to try him again and see.

Hellbrute and 2 x venom crawlers Tz- I am putting these together as I used them effectively as a unit. First, the 12 shots on the venom crawls throws out a lot of firepower. But mix that with the [Lethal Hits] and [Sustain Hits] on 5+ due to the hellbrute and they can put out some shots. They are still only -1 ap so you need your opponent to fail some saves, but that is basically most of 10th edition other than the broken crap (i.e. eldar, forgefiend, etc.). Not sure if these build would be competitive at the highest level per se, but it certainly does not suck.

Dark Commune leading 20 x cultist mob Tz- this is consistently my favorite unit, not due to power, but just do to how flexible they are. If you have been reading this section you know I always put these guys in strategic reserve and appear on a flank, then pop their once per game ability. They have scored me double digit points in every game, and this one they scored, 10 primary, and 8 secondary. And the best thing happened.......they finished off the Lion!!! Yes, he was down to 2 wounds, but with the [Lethal Hits] on a 5+ and the sheer number of shots they have, they can be a threat. In the two turns I shot the Lion, I scored 14 wounds and 16 wounds. Now he only failed one save each time due to having a 2+, but I should have averaged 2 wounds so he got a bit lucky. He did not charge them as the Lion had to finish off something else, and even with the 14 attacks, the 5++ just makes the cultists so hard to chew through. I really think this unit is great. I would field it in my competitive list, and it will shine even better against armies that don't have a 3+ or 2+ save.

Based on my few games and watching battle reports, if I was going to go to a tournament now, I would bring 2 units of possessed lead by a MoP, 3 Forgefiends, my cultist unit then maybe fill it out with the venom crawlers and hellbrute, and maybe a prince. Not sure on points but that would be the general concept.

Hope this helped.

lindsay40k wrote:Something I’ve noticed is Tzeentch heavy bolters can get SH & LH without a Helbrute marshalling them.With D2 AP-1 they can sting moderately hard targets.

On the subject of Dark Pacts, they make overwatch very interesting. I’ve won a game by getting multiple meltagun hits on a Primaris flame squad as it tried to move into position. Playing aggressively with my undivided Land Raider allowed it to consistently punish hard targets for challenging the centre of the table with two or four lascannon hits. (I can absolutely see the argument fro Nurgle, but my Berzerkers need their party van.)

Thanks for the Mathhammer analysis, I need to reevaluate combi-bolters and heavy bolters now

How are your Berzerkers doing? I'm disappointed we don't have any leaders for them in CSM (same for Rubrics and Plague Marines) so I've been treating mine as Legionaries and attaching an exalted champion in the party van.

Iggy88 wrote:Hey, I was wondering if there was a place for world eaters tactics, or at least some meta info for 10th.

I’m not expecting them to be competitive, but I was thinking of taking them off the shelf while I wait for my eldar army to be nerfed (hopefully soon).

Any info for how to make/start a world eaters force in 10th?

I don't think there's been a WE 10th thread but the 9th one may have some insight on tactics (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/807741.page). They are in an odd spot since the codex was pushed out the door with very few units, most armies I have seen tend to focus around Angron and the Eightbound. If you don't want to run WE proper you can always run CSM as a Khornate warband which is still plenty of fun.

xeen wrote:So I had a game against the Dark Angels. His list was mostly primaris (plasma blade guard intercessors etc.) Azerial, two redeptor dreads, a unit of the 6 jump primaris with guns, and of course the Lion.

I'm really starting to like the idea of Warp Talons moving up the board instead of deepstriking, I think I will save my rapid ingress for a Termie Lord with a khornate Termie Squad. For the Warp Talons not deep striking it would appear that Slaanesh for the advance and charge may be the best bet, provided you have the extra CP.

I like the Traitor Guardsmen a lot, I'm thinking of getting another blooded box. To me the points are fair for getting 3 special weapons but I could see them being as low as 60pts. Whether or not they are effective for me generally depends on the board layout and objective layout. Your WD mission with no home objectives sounds quite interesting.

I'm not sold on the DP with wings, they seem rather expensive atm. I would like to try a DP without wings and try marching up the midfield with a lot of infantry and the 4++ aura. Perhaps with a bloodletter mob and/or accursed cultists.

Nice work on the Cultists finishing off the Lion, such an ignoble end to him

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
How are your Berzerkers doing? I'm disappointed we don't have any leaders for them in CSM (same for Rubrics and Plague Marines) so I've been treating mine as Legionaries and attaching an exalted champion in the party van.

Honestly? Terrible. They’re functioning as a bullet magnet on their leftover reputation alone. Not being able to plug in a character hurts. Their ability is specific to WE armies, in which they have seemingly been relegated to the role of midfield objective holders who shout abuse at nearby enemies and dare them to a fight whilst the Eightbound do the actual blending. Legionaries match their remarkable OC, have a better loadout, a useable special rule, character options, and mark options. The only thing Berzerkers have over Heretacs is +1S, and doing a Dark Pact & giving the Champion a Power Fist outperforms that, even without a melee-focussed Mark. I think you’re already taking the strongest approach to including their models in a CSM force; Rubrics and Plague Marines do at least have their niches in our army, but Berzerkers have fallen from grace even harder then Mutilators IMO. Maybe worth returning to when there’s a codex or two.

Has anyone here been using accursed cultists? I am seeing them coming up allot on the tournament scene and looking at their rules, I can in some ways see why.

- Free respawn
- inbuilt 6+FNP
- plenty of wounds and not a terrible damage profile considering DP
- Easily more durable with Dark Commune or Abbaddon nearby
- 10 little dudes and 3 big dudes are 190pts, so cheaper than 10 legionnaires but likely around as tough with their gimmicks

I am going to proxy some next week and give them a run, see what I can do

Yeah hopefully the Codex let's us do something with specialty marines, right now they are pretty meh, until then I have no strong desire to replace my mini-zerkers with the new scale ones.

As for Accursed Cultists I think they will do great on the tabletop, I need to get mine assembled (and the Dark Commune) before I try them out.

With the new points changes I'm really looking forward to running my Brazen Beasts army. Points cuts to the Defiler and Helbrute are very nice, Discolord dropping 30pts might require another look. Forgefiend got a modest price hike but still worth taking.

For infantry Termielord and Warp Talons they got a very nice points drop, and some respectable point cuts for Legionnaires and Rhinos.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Yeah hopefully the Codex let's us do something with specialty marines, right now they are pretty meh, until then I have no strong desire to replace my mini-zerkers with the new scale ones.

As for Accursed Cultists I think they will do great on the tabletop, I need to get mine assembled (and the Dark Commune) before I try them out.

With the new points changes I'm really looking forward to running my Brazen Beasts army. Points cuts to the Defiler and Helbrute are very nice, Discolord dropping 30pts might require another look. Forgefiend got a modest price hike but still worth taking.

For infantry Termielord and Warp Talons they got a very nice points drop, and some respectable point cuts for Legionnaires and Rhinos.

I just checked and I think the most likely candidates for the lord's special ability are battle tactic stratagems, fortunately. But do keep that in mind when looking at lords, that they have a total of 3 stratagems to trigger.

Lords being restricted to a half dozen Battle Tactics to use for free doesn’t seem to matter all that much to me. What’s that cover?

- Command re-roll: you’re a sniper magnet with a 4++, you’re probably in a 3W unit that’s attracting autocannon fire, and it’s a pretty good strat for your opponent to target with the Callidus nerf.

- Counter-offensive: it costs a lot.

- Epic Challenge: handy tool for a hammer or accursed Lord to keep in his bag of tricks, I’m expecting DG PM squads with multiple characters to become a lot more popular in this season so this is probably solid.

- Infernal rites: it costs twice as much as armour of contempt, and makes your terminator squad lose half as many fighters to autocannons, again a decent call IMO

- Profane Zeal: semi-redundant on terminators and legionaries but not bad on Chosen, but I’d probably prefer to save the free activation on a 2CP strat.

- Eternal Hate: never used it but I keep it in mind when Primarchs are in play.

Honestly the only things I think we’ve actually lost here is Overwatch (it’s cheap unless like a Callidus punks us), Dark Obscuration (you get to use it for free once and then your opponent always resolves their attacks against the lord’s unit first so that if you pop it for free on him then you don’t get to use it on your LR or whatever, so again not a great loss), and Heroic Intervention (yeah, that could suck).

Insane Bravery is now very tightly rationed so it’s not really impacted by this, Rapid Ingress and Smokescreen and Tank Shock weren’t allowed anyway, neither was Grenade by Terminators, Skinshift and Unnatural Swiftness are both pretty cheap and activated just after you get your CP.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Yeah hopefully the Codex let's us do something with specialty marines, right now they are pretty meh, until then I have no strong desire to replace my mini-zerkers with the new scale ones.

As for Accursed Cultists I think they will do great on the tabletop, I need to get mine assembled (and the Dark Commune) before I try them out.

With the new points changes I'm really looking forward to running my Brazen Beasts army. Points cuts to the Defiler and Helbrute are very nice, Discolord dropping 30pts might require another look. Forgefiend got a modest price hike but still worth taking.

For infantry Termielord and Warp Talons they got a very nice points drop, and some respectable point cuts for Legionnaires and Rhinos.

Venom crawlers also got a good cut. I think the warptalons, venom crawlers and the hellbrute were big wins. Also dark commune not going up was great, and the small drop on chosen and possessed worked out pretty good as well. I think CSM did pretty good on this pass, unlike my TS who got hit pretty hard.

I actually haven't run a Chaos Lord of any variety yet, it's funny since I have a few armies and several of them are very character dependent, but there are so many good options in the CSM codex that I haven't yet felt the need to run a CSM Lord. With the points drop a CSM Lord + Termie squad was going to be in my next army, until the free CP change meant they could no longer use Rapid Ingress

Of the strats Lindsay mentioned I think Counteroffensive and Infernal Rights would probably see the most action on a Lord, although your opponent may target the Lord's unit first to make counteroffensive pointless. I'm still baffled they have left it at 2CP. I recall when 10th came out, Tabletop Tactics for instance assumed it was a typo and just treated it as a 1CP like Armor of Contempt.

For Venom Crawlers I'm surprised they got a price cut, they were already pretty good, not quite Forgefiend good but they saw a lot of action. I'm not a big fan of spiders so I don't own any myself But I do love crabs and the Defiler and Blood Slaughterers have gotten a lot of use, with the former being fantastic (S12 extra attacks on the Scourge is a real treat ) and the latter being a bit mediocre but at least as a Legends unit it isn't broken with no update on the way.

I ran 2 Helbrutes recently, the dakkabrute did well on the backfield but it's hard keeping the hammerbrute alive while also maximizing it's aura usage on the frontline. After people realize I'm getting a 5++ Khorne/Tzeentch Sustained and Lethal wounds because of the Helbrute he gets deleted pretty quickly. I have a 3rd Helbrute on the sprue but I don't know if it's worthwhile to field a 3rd

I have another game coming up this week so I'll be trying out the cheaper Warp Talons. I got my Dark Commune painted up but haven't had a chance to start the accursed Cultists, that'll be next after I finish up my Ork backlog.

Well our armor of contempt is a battle tactic, as is the undivided one and the Khrone one (I know you can use them on others but that his how I can identify them without looking the name up). So a Khorne Lord with Khorne Chosen still has pretty good access to strats I would be using anyway. I found that the Lord with the Chosen is pretty good, although he is not the beat stick he once was.

I think if you want to get a load of mileage from a brute it's got to be Nurgle and a CP's got to be assigned to it every turn. It's the sort of multiplier that an opponent will want to remove pretty quick. I'm painting up an Ectofiend and going to try it with a brute and warsmith.

So I would like to run Fabius in a rhino with a MoE and a 10x man unit of chosen. The problem:… thats 13 models. Can I exclude his little acolyte so they can all fit? Anywhere in the rules that prohibits taking a smaller unit than the datasheet specifies?

Kangarupe wrote:
So I would like to run Fabius in a rhino with a MoE and a 10x man unit of chosen. The problem:… thats 13 models. Can I exclude his little acolyte so they can all fit? Anywhere in the rules that prohibits taking a smaller unit than the datasheet specifies?

The problem is that taking an understrength unit is permitted.
Last edition you could in certain circumstances. But not now.
If your not in a tourney just ask your opponent. Personally I'd agree - provided you dropped one of the Chosen.

ccs wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:
So I would like to run Fabius in a rhino with a MoE and a 10x man unit of chosen. The problem:… thats 13 models. Can I exclude his little acolyte so they can all fit? Anywhere in the rules that prohibits taking a smaller unit than the datasheet specifies?

The problem is that taking an understrength unit is permitted.
Last edition you could in certain circumstances. But not now.
If your not in a tourney just ask your opponent. Personally I'd agree - provided you dropped one of the Chosen.

Would you mind pointing out the specific part of the rules that prohibits it? I believe, just want to read it over. Thanks!

Kangarupe wrote:

ccs wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:
So I would like to run Fabius in a rhino with a MoE and a 10x man unit of chosen. The problem:… thats 13 models. Can I exclude his little acolyte so they can all fit? Anywhere in the rules that prohibits taking a smaller unit than the datasheet specifies?

The problem is that taking an understrength unit is permitted.
Last edition you could in certain circumstances. But not now.
If your not in a tourney just ask your opponent. Personally I'd agree - provided you dropped one of the Chosen.

Would you mind pointing out the specific part of the rules that prohibits it? I believe, just want to read it over. Thanks!

You know as well as I do that:
A) There's no mention of being able to take understrength units in this edition.
B) And if there's not a rule granting you permission to do something in GW games, then you can't do it.

Unit composition: 1 leader, 5-9 grunt: x points.( and above this 1 leader, 4 grunt)

Note how it does not say 9 grunt but 5-9. Aka anything betwenn 5 and 9.

So 1 leader, 8 grunt fine. 1 leader, 3 grunt no.

You can take a 9-man Chosen unit. You can't choose not to take the Acolyte with Fabius though. The unit composition for him is fixed.

Slipspace wrote:
You can take a 9-man Chosen unit. You can't choose not to take the Acolyte with Fabius though. The unit composition for him is fixed.

ahh, yea that makes sense reading over the datasheet. Ultimately I guess it would be foolish to take a chosen out when you’re paying for the full. :/

IMO, princes should be able to lead units of Possessed.

Or give them Lone Operative so they aren't so... squishy!

Yeah, DPs are weird. They sort of have Dreadnaught stats, but they're basically close combat only. The foot ones tend to buff the units around them, making them a key target, which means they just tend to die really quickly.

We already have Neurotyrants joining Neurogaunts, so I don't think having a DP in a unit of Possessed would be too much of a problem. Or just give them Lone Operative, as suggested.

I like the idea of them being able to join Possessed.

But then again I think far more characters in 40k need Lone Operative. And rules that function when not leading a squad.

Slipspace wrote:
Yeah, DPs are weird. They sort of have Dreadnaught stats, but they're basically close combat only. The foot ones tend to buff the units around them, making them a key target, which means they just tend to die really quickly.

We already have Neurotyrants joining Neurogaunts, so I don't think having a DP in a unit of Possessed would be too much of a problem. Or just give them Lone Operative, as suggested.

Of course going to neurogaunts has side effect of becoming death trap if precision is around as neurotyrants t8 goes to 3

I don't think the DPs are to bad, probably a bit overcosted still. I use a slannesh flying one pretty regularly and the thing I realized is that I had to change my thinking about the unit a bit from 9th. It is not a main line damage dealer anymore, and is not going to be a center of your army. However, for the winged one, its speed lets it do well going down the flank, especially if you can keep it behind LOS blocking terrain. Then I just use him to bully flank and backfield objective campers, especially if he can get into some shooting infantry and start causing havoc in the backfield. Don't send him into tough units with a good save, like most tanks, and definitely don't send him into units with good T and saves who can fight in CC, like terminators, dreadnoughts, carnifex, etc. He needs to be picking on units that can't really hurt him back in CC and are not super tough, and he does just fine.

Also I have found, unless you are playing on a battlefield that has no cover or LOS blocking, that he does ok with his T9 2+/4++ in soaking up most shooting. The invul is always strange in that if you roll hot, he is basically unkillable to AT weapons, but you fail like one or two of those and he is dead fast. Again, he should not be out in the open, but cowering behind ruins and then jumping out to attack units that pose no real treat to him. Also every shot that goes into him, doesn't go into my main damage dealers like possessed, forgefiend, etc.

Just a thought.

Played several more games with my CSM both with daemonic heavy lists as well as more varied armies. I'm really enjoying the diversity of army building and strategy with the different chaos marks. Here's my quick rundown of the units I've been using.

Exalted Champion + Legionnaires
I know Chosen do extremely well but the Legionnaires with the Exalted Champion have been doing great for me. I do mine with Khorne and chainswords and they are great going into MEQ. I don't like running them without a rhino though, the times I have not they have been quickly obliterated by hellblasters with or without Oath.

Cultists
As others said these can definitely punch above their weight class and sticky objective is quite nice, until you draw the mission card that makes all objectives sticky
I use the BSF models so I generally take one of each special and lots of ranged combat along with Tzeentch. In the future I may run a max size squad with a Dark Commune once I build a second.

Accursed Cultists
Wow these guys are great when led by a Dark Commune. I am eager to build another box and run a max size unit. I run mine with Tzeentch solely for skin shift to heal and and replace a model; this was useful enough to tie up an AoK for 3 Rounds (and some lucky Invuls)

Dark Commune
Love these models, looking forward to using them more. They're a solid and very cheap unit and provide great durability and versatility to our chaff.

Master of Possession + Possessed
I ran a 10 man squad and honestly I feel like these are pretty undercosted, they are very, very good and durable and aggressive. I run mine with Slaanesh for the advance and charge.

Warpsmith
I have had nothing but poor outings with mine. I've run a vehicle heavy list several times and he usually gets killed by a deepstriking unit I failed to screen against. The one time I paired him up with some Havocs who would be moving upfield with my Helbrute and Defiler I had forgotten my opponent had a Death Jester, and if you haven't played them yet it's comically easy for the elf-clowns to precision target devastating wounds.

Havocs
I've have bad luck with them so far. With the lascannon setup, the first time they were used I failed to get a single Wound through in 3 Rounds due to some terrible rolls. They redeemed themselves in another game but after destroying their prime targets were simply too slow to matter much in later Rounds. A problem with playing on a board dense with tall terrain. I ran the 4x Reaper Gatlings with Tzeentch and while the boat load of Lethals was nice, they were quashed by anything with a 2+ Save.

Obliterators
Very good, I'd like to get more but I really don't care for the new sculpt on the refresh. As others have mentioned where you place them will matter the most since the 4" move isn't going anywhere fast. I run mine with Tzeentch and love using Skinshift.

Warp Talons
Apparently a distraction carnifex for me. I've run them on foot and deep striking, both min and max size squads and they always become priority target number one. The last time I rapid ingressed them 2 of the 10 survived a shooting onslaught and a kamikaze charge. They then failed to charge the backfield artillery piece which is why I had placed them there, and the mission rule had command reroll as 2CP. I think 100pts is fair for them, I just haven't had any luck with them and all of my opponents tend to focus fire on them, not a bad thing I suppose.

Termies
Love the durability this edition. Depending on the army if I predict I'll have CP I will rapid ingress and go with a Mark of Khorne, otherwise a Tzeentch mark does great as well. I've got 5 of each and I'm tempted to pick up another box of 5, but they are very pricey in points but I would say they're worth it more often than not.

Defiler
I appreciate the points cut but with his giant profile he has a hard time staying alive. Disappointingly our crab tank is only T10 and that hurts a lot. Mine is built as Khorne with the Scourge, it's been great the few times I get into Melee but that rarely happens. I think I'm going to start putting these into Reserves and dumping them on the table later. The Defiler cannon and reaper is my go-to for ranged options since it's usually paired up with a hammer helbrute.

Helbrute
These are fantastic and the points drop was nice. I'm still on the fence about running three of these. I do a Tzeenth dakkabrute and a hammer brute Slaanesh.

Forgefiend
Still great even with the points hike, I'm kicking myself for not buying a second one a while ago. I've switch to Nurgle instead of Chaos Undivided since I go through CP quickly.

Heldrake
Great unit, but like the Warp Talons they tend to get focus fired when you bring them in Hover mode with the biggest guys the enemy has. Like the Defiler I'm going to start using these in reserve and dropping them in later.

Last but not least the humble (traitor) guardsmen. Great unit, although I've never felt the need to bring the Commisar + Ogryn, a bit too expensive methinks
I prefer to run mine with 2x Snipers with Tzeentch since the sniper rifles have gotten a nice glowup this edition, especially the Imperial versions.

Overall, I'm really enjoying Dark Pacts and I may have a hard time switching to a new detachment whenever the codex drops. The versatility with this one is fantastic. How has everyone else been faring in their games?

I agree with all of your sentiments. You should build a max cults with ranged weapons, Tz, and a dark commune. It is loads of fun. I start mine in reserve and then they pop up on flank near an objective and have scored me many many points

So I had two back to back 1250 point games over the weekend. My list in both was as follows:

Master of Possession und
5 x possessed und
5 x warptalons slan
2 x venomcrawlers nur
1 x hellbrute nur
1 x forgefiend und
dark commune tz
20 x ranged cultists tz
2 x obliterators tz

A word on small games. While both games were fun, the game is really meant to be played at 2000 points. Certain units (like the PBC or Abbadon's unit) have an outsize power increase at lower points due to the smaller number of threats. If you play a smaller game, make sure you are on the same page as your opponent as to what should be taken so it doesn't become one sided. (I just watched a Winters battle report on Youtube and they played 1100 points and his opponent brought a large tank that literally could not be killed.)


My first game was against deathguard. He had some PBCs, small terminator squad, some of those small small drone things, and some plague marines with supported characters. I ended up losing this game, (my first loss of tenth actually) basically due to the sticky objective rule for his whole army as he was scoring primary each turn without worrying about keeping units on objectives. That is actually a better rule than people give it credit for, especially now with the extra contagin (he used -1 WS/BS) and definitely in smaller games.

My second game was against CSM and he had Abbadon with terminators, a defiler, a forgefied, havocs with the chain guns, 5 man chosen with a lord and a small cultist squad with a dark commune. I ended up scoring a bunch of points early and took the game by 1 point. It was fun.

Here is my unit breakdown

Master of Possession und with 5 x possessed und- These guys put in work both games, killing a bunch of plague marines and in the second game holding an objective. 5 is not enough in my opinion, just because if they take any casualties it hurts their output. 2 or 3 are not deadly, while 5 -6 are, which shows the importance of the larger squad size in relation to casualties. I also did not make one FNP save in either game!

5 x warptalons slan - I liked these guys before, but at 100 points they are a straight steal. They kind of got screwed in the first game, scoring me some secondary, but then getting clobbered by the indirect from the PBCs (indirect if very potent in small games). The second game they also scored me secondaries, and using the advance and charge killed the cultist unit and took the center objective away from him. These guys are great little early scoring and skirmishing unit. I really want to try ten to see if they can be more of a mainline damage dealer squad, but I only own five. There is no way they stay at 100 points on the next balance pass.

2 x venomcrawlers nur with 1 x hellbrute nur - I bascially used these as a "unit" with the hellbrute giving out the double dark pact and the venomcrawlers making the most of it with their 12 shots. These guys are pretty deadly, especially against 2w marine targets. They wiped the havocs, and the plague marines pretty easily, and did some damage to the defiler, and PBCs. I really like this combination. I don't know if it is better than just bringing more forgefiends however, and the venomcrawlers and hellbrute are not the most tank-y units.

1 x forgefiend und - We all know what this guy does, and with the re-roll strat, [Devastating Wounds] is still really really good, especially against vehicles and terminators. My opponent in the second game used his with mark of nurgle for the [Sustained Hits]. When there is only one I am not sure which is better, but definetly if you bring more than one the remainder should be nurgle.

dark commune tz with 20 x ranged cultists tz- Everyone on here knows how much I love this unit, and it still rocks. In game one it came in and did not do any damage, but held objectives and scored points. His blast did a number on them, but with the 5++ they weathered it better that you would think. In the second game they appeared and killed 4 chosen. Then proceeded to take an objective and held it and basically won me the game.

2 x obliterators tz- as I said before, 2 is not enough, and 4 is to many. They did what they do appearing and shooting stuff, but I could not take advantage of the Tz strat due to the small size. If you are only taking 2 I would recommend nurgle or undivided over Tz.

My opponent's CSM units

Abbadon with the terminators - Again I think everyone knows how good this combination is. I really had nothing to deal with it at 1250 as the forgefiend was dealing with his/defiler. In a bigger game my 10 man possessed could really hurt that unit, but only 5 not so much. Same with the obliterators. I did not get the chance to shoot them with the venomcrawlers, but I don't think that they would have done much to that block.

Defiler - This is the first time I have seen this unit. I thought it was ok, it was pretty tough, and did survive my first round of attacks on 2 wounds, which made it a big problem for me on turn 2 that I had to deal with. Maybe if it had a 2+ save it could be better. Also even with its special move ability, it is such a big model that it can be hard to move it around the board. In fact my opponent failed a charge because it could not fit in a gap and had to go around.

Havocs with Chain cannons- so he had a unit of havocs with Nur with the chain cannons. I was not impressed. The chain cannon only being ap0 means it is not very helpful against anything with a 3+ or 2+ save. It ended up killing a few possessed, but then got smashed by my venomcrawler. I think LC havocs are a better choice, as the chain cannon is only really good at clearing light infantry, and realistically, CSM can do that pretty well with almost all of their units.

hope this was helpful

Some personal thoughts on your thoughts Xeen.

-It's a shame you've had bad luck with Havocs, I have a Nurgle lascannon squad in every game I play and they usually put in work, especially if Abby is around.
-Kudos for using him, but a defiler has no business in any 10th CSM list right now lol
-Using Skinshift on TZ cultists feels like a poor allocation of CP but, to each their own.
-Deep striking Oblits are an excellent rapid ingress candidate, especially with their once a game LoS ability. 2 in deep strike are enough to keep any scurred opponent thinking!

Interesting point about the Possessed. I was considering running 2 squads of a MoP and 5x Possessed but I may want to reconsider since they lack lethality once they dip below a certain point.

I finished painting some cultists but I need to pick up a second Dark Commune before I attach them to my cultist blob. For now they are indispensable on the Accursed Cultists.

I'm glad to hear someone has had good luck with Havocs. I think I'm going to place mine on the shelf at their current points cost.

I love the Defiler, one of my favorite models but with T10 and a 3+ Save he's pretty fragile for a 'tank'.

Skinshift is being used on the Accursed Cultists to heal one of the 3 Wound units and then bring back another 3 Wound unit. It's great when the accursed cultists are about to be wiped out and you want to tie up an enemy unit for even longer.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Interesting point about the Possessed. I was considering running 2 squads of a MoP and 5x Possessed but I may want to reconsider since they lack lethality once they dip below a certain point.

I finished painting some cultists but I need to pick up a second Dark Commune before I attach them to my cultist blob. For now they are indispensable on the Accursed Cultists.

I'm glad to hear someone has had good luck with Havocs. I think I'm going to place mine on the shelf at their current points cost.

I love the Defiler, one of my favorite models but with T10 and a 3+ Save he's pretty fragile for a 'tank'.

Skinshift is being used on the Accursed Cultists to heal one of the 3 Wound units and then bring back another 3 Wound unit. It's great when the accursed cultists are about to be wiped out and you want to tie up an enemy unit for even longer.

Tzeentch on Accursed definitely makes more sense, but sacrificing all those potential Slaanesh exploding hits feels like wasted potential. Certainly the way to go if you don't envision them seeing combat though! As I see it, Unless you're playing against a melee army, you're always burning through 1 CP for the Nurgle strat, so CP is even more scarce for us. I'm currently running a 16 man accursed unit led by the dark commune. So I want them seeing battle!!!!

On the Havocs perhaps... I think they're appropriately costed, and certainly not an auto-bench. That's the beauty of a CSM list though I guess, plenty of options

My cultists are ranged, so Tz is for [Lethal Hits] for their ranged attacks. In rapid fire range (they usually are) is 32 auto gun shots, 14 heavy stubber, and then two grenade lanchers, which unless engaging something heavy, I usually use blast for more shots. It is just overload with shooting. I do not use skinshift on them ever, that is for the oblits if they survive.

And I did not use the defiler, or havocs as that was my opponents units. I like havocs with a LC, but not the Chain cannon. The defiler was neat, but I think more forgefieds is better.

Hi all,

I've been running a 2K list, for the last week or so, and have had a number of games in. All gone well.

Here's the list:

Abaddon the Despoiler

Dark Commune (Undivided)(x5)

Accursed Cultists (Undivided)(x16)

Accursed Cultists (Nurgle)(x16)

Chaos Cultists (Nurgle)(x10)

Legionnaires (Undivided)(x10)

Obliterators (Undivided)(x4)

Warptalons (Slaanesh)(x5)

Forgefiend (Nurgle)

Forgefiend (Undivided)

Allies

Bluescribes

Seekers (x5)

Nurglings (x3)

Nurglings (x3)

Its very strongly based off of a CSM list from the 40K Dirtbags channel, but I removed his third AC unit and added Oblits. I think CSM lists need Undivided Oblits because they are a valid counter to Wraithknights, or equivalent.

If you hide Oblits behind a wall you create a 24" radius, where if the WK enters the midfield you can shoot them indirectly, pop the Undivided strat, move out the Nurgle FF, kill the WK then use the Nurgle strat in the opponent's turn and they can't really do anything about either the Oblits/FF.

If they have a second WK and they decide to contest the center or midfield again, you repeat this and expose the Oblits.

The AC meanwhile, have totally swamped the board and with the changes to dev wounds, are much harder to get rid of. Abaddon is giving them a 4++ and is with the Legionnaires.

Nurglings and Bluescribes drop in on the periphery to score and do their thing. Ditto for the Warp Talons.

All credit to the guy from 40K DB: the Seekers are an excellent unit for boxing the opponent into their DZ.

With all this going on, its very hard for the opponent to score anything.

Any thoughts on this?

Best,
Samii.

I have also had great success with my list.

Dark Commune (55pts)
• 2x Blessed Blades
• 2x Commune blade
• 1x Cult Demagogue
• 1x Autopistol
• 1x Commune stave
• 1x Iconarch
• 1x Autopistol
• 1x Close combat weapon
• 1x Chaos icon
• 1x Slaanesh
• 1x Mindwitch
• 1x Close combat weapon
• 1x Warp Curse

Abaddon the Despoiler (310pts)
• 1x Drach'nyen
• 1x Talon of Horus
• 1x Warlord

Fabius Bile (85pts)
• 1x Fabius Bile
• 1x Rod of Torment
• 1x The Chirurgeon
• 1x Xyclos needler
• 1x Surgeon Acolyte
• 1x Surgeon Acolyte's tools

BATTLELINE

Cultist Mob (55pts)
• 9x Cultists
• 6x Cultist firearm and close combat weapon
• 1x Flamer
• 1x Cultist grenade launcher
• 1x Heavy stubber
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Bolt pistol and brutal assault weapon
• 1x Tzeentch

Cultist Mob (55pts)
• 9x Cultists
• 6x Cultist firearm and close combat weapon
• 1x Flamer
• 1x Cultist grenade launcher
• 1x Heavy stubber
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Bolt pistol and brutal assault weapon
• 1x Tzeentch

OTHER DATASHEETS

Accursed Cultists (190pts)
• 1x Slaanesh
• 10x Mutant
• 10x Blasphemous appendages
• 6x Torment
• 6x Hideous mutations

Chaos Terminator Squad (390pts)
• 10x Terminators
• 8x Combi-bolter
• 2x Accursed weapon
• 2x Chainfist
• 2x Reaper autocannon
• 6x Power fist
• 1x Tzeentch

Chosen (220pts)
• 10x Chosen
• 6x Bolt pistol
• 10x Boltgun
• 8x Accursed weapon
• 4x Plasma pistol
• 2x Power fist
• 1x Chaos icon
• 1x Chaos Undivided

Obliterators (170pts)
• 1x Tzeentch
• 2x Obliterator
• 2x Fleshmetal guns
• 2x Crushing fists

Forgefiend (180pts)
• 1x 2 ectoplasma cannons
• 2x Ectoplasma cannon
• 1x Ectoplasma cannon and limbs
• 1x Armoured limbs
• 1x Ectoplasma cannon
• 1x Chaos Undivided

Forgefiend (180pts)
• 1x 2 ectoplasma cannons
• 2x Ectoplasma cannon
• 1x Ectoplasma cannon and limbs
• 1x Armoured limbs
• 1x Ectoplasma cannon
• 1x Nurgle

Chaos Rhino (75pts)
• 1x Armoured tracks
• 1x Combi-bolter
• 1x Havoc launcher
• 1x Chaos Undivided
• 1x Combi-weapon

ALLIED UNITS

Nurglings (35pts)
• 1x Diseased claws and teeth

Abby handing out rerolls to the Termies & Forgefiends (if close) has been excellent (especially on overwatch), the Chosen with Fabius are durable and hit hard, and the dark commune over 16 accursed cultists is a massive tough, regenerative block that is a real thorn in peoples sides.

Hi all,

I changed my list and its been doing even better.

I changed the Nurgle Forgefiend to Nurgle Chaos Land Raider, replaced the Bluescribes with some Nurgle Chaos Bikes, dropped an oblit and changed their allegiance to Tzeentch.

What this has enabled me to do:

1) The Chaos Land Raider I added for a couple of reasons. With the Undivided FF, I have enough anti-elite infantry, so I needed a bit more anti-tank. The Nurgle allegiance gives me output that can work alongside the Undivided FF. It also gives me excellent deployment options. The enemy is wary of Abaddon and the Legionnaires going in it, deploying on the line, Nurgle strat and turn 1 wrecking balling his deployment zone, whether or not I go first. The shooting and melee threat can cut the opponent in half, in turn 1. While you may lose Abaddon's unit, its also possible the opponent won't have enough resources left to deal with him.

Similarly, I can create a killing zone in the midfield that the enemy cannot enter, if I decide to play defensively and deploy the oblits turn 1 out of sight ready to warp rift. The threat of this is enough to make the enemy think twice at the deployment step. The Land Raider helps me to deploy conservatively also, by reducing my footprint if I need to.

2) The oblits can thus deploy defensively, or offensively. With Tzeentch their shooting is able to co-exist with the FF and Land Raider. Rerolls from Abaddon benefit all three. In contrast to the above turn 1 wrecking ball scenario, I found that the oblits can replace Abaddon, in this role. If they deep strike behind a wall, warp rift firepower; then move up and charge something the following turn, you can pop the two defensive strats on them (-1 to hit and -1 ap) and the enemy can't really deal with them. Use the resurrection strat if you lose any. The trick is to expose everything the turn you do this. Don't bother with the Nurgle strat on anything, maybe smoke on the Chaos Land Raider, trust me there will be too many threats for the enemy to deal with, you can overload them.

The trick is progressive overload: turn 1 you trade shots with minimal units, hide stuff and use the Nurgle strat to deny return fire (and/or warp rift firepower) and next turn overload the enemy with threats.

While this is happening, the objectives are getting swamped by Accursed Cultists and the scoring units (bikes, Nurglings, Seekers) are scoring.

3) The bikes are a great harassment unit, as are the Seekers.

No-one wants to deal with them, but they have surprising levels of damage output when ignored and can score points.

Very happy now with this list.

Best,
Samii.

Kangarupe wrote:
I have also had great success with my list.

Dark Commune (55pts)
• 2x Blessed Blades
• 2x Commune blade
• 1x Cult Demagogue
• 1x Autopistol
• 1x Commune stave
• 1x Iconarch
• 1x Autopistol
• 1x Close combat weapon
• 1x Chaos icon
• 1x Slaanesh
• 1x Mindwitch
• 1x Close combat weapon
• 1x Warp Curse

Abaddon the Despoiler (310pts)
• 1x Drach'nyen
• 1x Talon of Horus
• 1x Warlord

Fabius Bile (85pts)
• 1x Fabius Bile
• 1x Rod of Torment
• 1x The Chirurgeon
• 1x Xyclos needler
• 1x Surgeon Acolyte
• 1x Surgeon Acolyte's tools

BATTLELINE

Cultist Mob (55pts)
• 9x Cultists
• 6x Cultist firearm and close combat weapon
• 1x Flamer
• 1x Cultist grenade launcher
• 1x Heavy stubber
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Bolt pistol and brutal assault weapon
• 1x Tzeentch

Cultist Mob (55pts)
• 9x Cultists
• 6x Cultist firearm and close combat weapon
• 1x Flamer
• 1x Cultist grenade launcher
• 1x Heavy stubber
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Bolt pistol and brutal assault weapon
• 1x Tzeentch

OTHER DATASHEETS

Accursed Cultists (190pts)
• 1x Slaanesh
• 10x Mutant
• 10x Blasphemous appendages
• 6x Torment
• 6x Hideous mutations

Chaos Terminator Squad (390pts)
• 10x Terminators
• 8x Combi-bolter
• 2x Accursed weapon
• 2x Chainfist
• 2x Reaper autocannon
• 6x Power fist
• 1x Tzeentch

Chosen (220pts)
• 10x Chosen
• 6x Bolt pistol
• 10x Boltgun
• 8x Accursed weapon
• 4x Plasma pistol
• 2x Power fist
• 1x Chaos icon
• 1x Chaos Undivided

Obliterators (170pts)
• 1x Tzeentch
• 2x Obliterator
• 2x Fleshmetal guns
• 2x Crushing fists

Forgefiend (180pts)
• 1x 2 ectoplasma cannons
• 2x Ectoplasma cannon
• 1x Ectoplasma cannon and limbs
• 1x Armoured limbs
• 1x Ectoplasma cannon
• 1x Chaos Undivided

Forgefiend (180pts)
• 1x 2 ectoplasma cannons
• 2x Ectoplasma cannon
• 1x Ectoplasma cannon and limbs
• 1x Armoured limbs
• 1x Ectoplasma cannon
• 1x Nurgle

Chaos Rhino (75pts)
• 1x Armoured tracks
• 1x Combi-bolter
• 1x Havoc launcher
• 1x Chaos Undivided
• 1x Combi-weapon

ALLIED UNITS

Nurglings (35pts)
• 1x Diseased claws and teeth

Abby handing out rerolls to the Termies & Forgefiends (if close) has been excellent (especially on overwatch), the Chosen with Fabius are durable and hit hard, and the dark commune over 16 accursed cultists is a massive tough, regenerative block that is a real thorn in peoples sides.

How are you finding Terminators? I like the idea of them, but most of the time I feel Abaddon is the one doing the most damage, in melee anyways.

Best,
Samii.

I like the lists listed above.

So I had a 3000 point mega battle me v. 2 1500 point space marine armies. My list was as follows:

Master of Possession und
10 x possessed und
5 x warptalons slan
2 x venomcrawlers nur
1 x hellbrute nur
1 x forgefiend und
warpsmith (just state and helped the forgefiend)
dark commune tz
20 x ranged cultists tz
4 x obliterators tz
Vindicator nur
Chaos Lord kh
10 x Chosen kh
daemon prince with wings SL
10 x traitor guard Tz (just holding backline)
Allied Chaos Knight Abomadant.

I ended up getting beat pretty badly, the new SM book has some really good options combined with somewhat kind of sillly point reductions/costs. I also went second and got caught with some of my units in the open (due to terrain) so really started off on my back foot. I also did not use the obliterators correctly. I am not going to review all the units I have talked about many times before, just some of the new to me ones.

5 x warptalons slan - well these guys got hit by a whirlwind indirect on turn 1 and despite having 3+ saves against the attacks, I lost 4 of them. So basically out of the fight from the very beginning. (aside on indirect. The rule should really require that if the shooting unit can't see the target, at least one other unit in your army has to see it. I mean it is really not fun to have a weapon that can just target anything and you can't do anything about it at all, especially going second). However, based on previous games I really think 10 of these could be good, but this game shows that they are pretty squishy, especially against damage 2 weapons.

2 x venomcrawlers nur with 1 x hellbrute nur- Again these guys did some pretty good damage, and the venomcrawlers are very good against marine infantry, especially with both [Lethal Hits] and [Sustained Hits] from the hellbrute. The hellbrute was ok, but he goes down petty quick to AT fire, but the ability to throw down [Lethal Hits] and [Sustained Hits] is so good. I think you could work this combo in a competitive list, but more forgefiends is probably better.

4 x obliterators tz- I really miss used these. I deepstiked in the rear and killed the whirlwind, however I should have put them more on the main line to deal with the two redemptor dreads that were causing me all kinds of problems (-1 damage still really really good especially with 2+ save now). I also put them in a spot where they were really exposed and were easily flanked and killed by eradactors and terminator. Long story short, they are good, and do a lot of damage, and are tough, but are not really as tough as a vehicle.

Vindicator nur- so yea, he got killed turn 1 before he could do anything on my first 10th ed use of him. However, my opponent had a SM one, and it was really good, tanking some AT, and the cannon, while swing-y, can put out some serious damage. Really want to try with a helbrute, but I think I am going back to TS for a bit.

Chaos Lord kh leading 10 x Chosen kh- The ability to both advance and charge and fall back and charge is really huge with these guys. They took out the infantry they fought easily, but got stuck in a bad spot fighting redemptors. They actually manage to put a lot of wounds on it, but my opponent rolled hot on the saves (again the 2+ made a huge difference) and they bounced off him twice. The three wounds does make them kind of tougher than you would think. I know people have been using them competitively and doing well, but I still think the possessed are better.

daemon prince with wings SL- So I know there is some back and forth on this guy on this tread about his utility. I think he can have a place, but really only as slannesh. He is really really fast, and he is pretty good at bulling any infantry other than terminators. Using the fall back and charge strat, I picked combat, did damage and then slipped away on my turn to keep moving to the backfield to deny objectives. He was ok with surviving as long as he is not the main target, especially with the 5+++ from the relic. He is still probably like 20 points to much, or needs an ap -3 on his main attack (I mean he is a daemon prince).

Allied Chaos Knight Abomadant. Maybe this thing is good in a knight detachment, but as an ally it is hot garbage. Its gun did next to nothing, its close combat was mediocre (again the low ap really hurts) and he really wasn't all that tough. The ability to put out some mortal wound was cute, but ultimately did nothing of consequence, and battle shocking a unit in your own turn with his ability is basically completely useless. I mean I could have had a land raider, a predator, and some legionaries for like 5 points more. Don't use this guy as an ally.

Probably going to play some TS for now, but hope this was helpful.

Samii wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:


How are you finding Terminators? I like the idea of them, but most of the time I feel Abaddon is the one doing the most damage, in melee anyways.

Best,
Samii.

While they are expensive they put in a lot of work...particularly with overwatch. I start the whole blob right on the deployment line knowing full well they're safe from fire with Dark Obscuration. As they slowly meander their way to the center objective (usually), they can shoot and overwatch anything encroaching into the 12' bubble. Most opponents want nothing to do with an Abby 10x termie blob. If they do want to get close, Abby is there to wreak havoc so yeah... fairly happy! With full hit re-rolls and dark parks on an overwatch they're a real menace (8x combi bolters, 2x reaper cannons, talons of horus.)

Hi,

So I've played quite a few games with CSM in 10th now and I have some observations, some of which are counter-meta:

I think a lot of people misuse the Nurgle strat and mark too many units Nurgle. If you declare it too soon, you make it obvious who its going and when, while marking too many units Nurgle limits your firepower utility. Granted, there are situations you want to pop it early; specifically turn 1 to get better position, or limit return fire. However, if you wait to use it, you are effectively splitting your opponent's shooting in that phase, making the other units in your army a bit tougher. If you are closer to your opponent (within 12"), it is a good idea to use it sooner, because you're getting the benefit of -1 to hit and parts of your opponent's army can't shoot, but otherwise it can be good to wait. The Chaos Land Raider is a great candidate to wait with: you can draw out a few shots first and then pop the strat. Those first shots could have gone into other things.

In terms of the Mark itself, it benefits some units shooting, but not others. Cultists, for example. Because they make objectives sticky, I actually want my opponent to be able to shoot them with indirect etc., because even if they die, they still hold it. So I mark them Tzeentch. Same for bikes. The shooting profile is better with those and the Nurgle Mark can go elsewhere.

Knowing when to pact is important too and which iteration to use. Sometimes it might be better to not pact. CSM have no problem with damage output, but a lot of people seem to lean into that. CSM have some tough units, Obliterators, Chaos Land Raider, Accursed Cultists etc., by shoring up and playing strategically, you can make it so that the enemy can't trade as efficiently as you. You have to work a bit harder at this, than say Space Marines, who have access to AoC and are cheaper, but if you play efficiently I think you have the best point-for-point trading utility in the game, its just you have to do a lot of on the spot calculations.

On the point of Terminators @Kangarupe I think they are the best candidate for Rapid Ingress. You drop them behind a wall and next turn shoot and charge. Add a Sorcerer and drop in a unit of Obliterators too: warp rift and Rapid Ingress combined with these two units can be a really devastating hammer blow, with no answer from the enemy. While I like the brick strategy of Terminators and Abaddon I think its an all eggs in one basket scenario and is not very mobile. In 10th the brick has less legs, because of the faster objective scoring pace.

Also, one last point: the Tzeentch oblits are an amazing unit, I had three of them effectively duel with and kill two Wraithknights in a game.

Best,
Samii.

has anyone tried a 10 man of Warptalons?

If so how did they do?

I have no major strategy when it comes to the terminators, but I'll tell you their psychological effect is strong, one big distraction carnifex while my small demon ally units, cultists, whatever are off scoring on various secondaries. That unit lives rent free in your opponents head.

As for obliterators...man, not a fan currently. I had two of them blow two rounds of shooting in a game the other day...low shot count, completely whiffed their hit and wound rolls. They're just so swingy. They have come out and been replaced by two seeker units.

Kangarupe wrote:
As for obliterators...man, not a fan currently. I had two of them blow two rounds of shooting in a game the other day...low shot count, completely whiffed their hit and wound rolls. They're just so swingy. They have come out and been replaced by two seeker units.

Yes, Obliterators are swingy: but they give you a lot of firepower utility and you do have some control over it, if you drop them close to something big, it improves the chances of destruction quite a bit on the melta profile, even if you roll low.

I always keep a command point to reroll one of the shots, if I need to.

I find CSM are quite swingy in shooting generally: you are always hoping to explode, if you don't spike the shooting can seem lack luster, even with rerolls.

Somewhat relatedly, I've found Tzeentch cultists to be a great utility shooting unit. If your opponent brings something big, their chip damage makes up points every time. With rerolls, I've had them take a couple of wounds off a Wraithknight a turn, for example.

Unrelatedly, how are people finding Cypher?

I think he's a great unit. He's a lone operative and can advance and do actions, meaning he can control a couple of objectives in my DZ or the midfield, he also has decent pistol shooting and can clear out chaff objective holders, better than his own points cost. The ability to increase strat cost is still great, even if you just use it deny your opponent a command reroll.

Best,
Samii.

Samii wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:
As for obliterators...man, not a fan currently. I had two of them blow two rounds of shooting in a game the other day...low shot count, completely whiffed their hit and wound rolls. They're just so swingy. They have come out and been replaced by two seeker units.

Yes, Obliterators are swingy: but they give you a lot of firepower utility and you do have some control over it, if you drop them close to something big, it improves the chances of destruction quite a bit on the melta profile, even if you roll low.

I always keep a command point to reroll one of the shots, if I need to.

I find CSM are quite swingy in shooting generally: you are always hoping to explode, if you don't spike the shooting can seem lack luster, even with rerolls.

Somewhat relatedly, I've found Tzeentch cultists to be a great utility shooting unit. If your opponent brings something big, their chip damage makes up points every time. With rerolls, I've had them take a couple of wounds off a Wraithknight a turn, for example.

Unrelatedly, how are people finding Cypher?

I think he's a great unit. He's a lone operative and can advance and do actions, meaning he can control a couple of objectives in my DZ or the midfield, he also has decent pistol shooting and can clear out chaff objective holders, better than his own points cost. The ability to increase strat cost is still great, even if you just use it deny your opponent a command reroll.

Best,
Samii.

Tzeentch is my go to on cultists. You're absolutely right, between all the different weapon shots they can put out a fairly decent number of auto-wounding hits.

Cypher was in my list in early 10th but came out with the change to freebie stratagems. Since everyone's ability to mitigate CP loss was nerfed, he no longer fulfilled a justifiable role for the points. His damage output was pretty crap too, if he had is 9th ability to dip out of combat and into reserve he'd be worth it.

Obliterators... poopy slow and sometimes cannot be deep struck effectively if you're being screened well. I stand by my statement! haha

Tzeentch is my go to to cultists as well. 20 with tzeentch can actually do some damage especially against units with a low save.

In my opinion obliterators need to be 4 or none. Two is not enough. Mine have been key in several games taking out big enemies.

Just a thought

Samii wrote:
Hi,


On the point of Terminators @Kangarupe I think they are the best candidate for Rapid Ingress. You drop them behind a wall and next turn shoot and charge. Add a Sorcerer and drop in a unit of Obliterators too: warp rift and Rapid Ingress combined with these two units can be a really devastating hammer blow, with no answer from the enemy. While I like the brick strategy of Terminators and Abaddon I think its an all eggs in one basket scenario and is not very mobile. In 10th the brick has less legs, because of the faster objective scoring pace.\

Best,
Samii.

This comment flashed across my mind during a sleepless night last night lol...rapid ingress with a 10x block of terminators *somewhere useful* sounds extremely challenging. The unit footprint is huge, especially if you're running Abby with them. Better to have them on the board from the get go I say, control no man's land somewhere.

Hi all,

I've taken @Kangarupes' advice RE Obliterators.

As noted, they are slow and hard to place. I think with CSM you have to go all in offense, if you compromise you lose out on the factions strengths. With Obliterators they are a unit that shoots, can't be interacted with and then has decent offensive and defensive capabilities, in subsequent turns, so they trade well.

But if they are not possible to place, they lose a lot of their sparkle.

Also, CSM works better when there are multiple threats presented simultaneously and Obliterators work best by having a turn where they are hidden, which works against the faction symmetry, in my opinion.

So I replaced the Obliterators with Chosen and an Exalted Champion. They go in the Chaos Land Raider and present a turn 1 threat that can just demolish a DZ. If there's screens the Seekers can clear them and then the Chosen go in. I've found the unit has always made its points back and presents a threat that can't be ignored and draws attention away from other elements of the list.

Here it is:

Abaddon the Despoiler

Exalted Champion (Khorne)*

Dark Commune (Undivided)(x5)

Chosen (Khorne)(x10)

Helbrute (Nurgle)

Accursed Cultists (Undivided)(x16)

Chaos Cultists (Tzeentch)(x10)

Legionnaires (Undivided)(x10)

Chaos Bikes (Nurgle)(x3)

Warp Talons (Slaanesh)(x5)

Chaos Land Raider (Nurgle)

Forgefiend (Undivided)

Allies

Seekers (x5)

Nurglings (x3)

Nurglings (x3)

*Talisman of Burning Blood

Any thoughts?

Best,
Samii.

Did you also Changes the terminators with Legionaires? Will you Team them Up with abbadon? What is the Job of the Legionaires?

Samii wrote:
Hi all,

I've taken @Kangarupes' advice RE Obliterators.

As noted, they are slow and hard to place. I think with CSM you have to go all in offense, if you compromise you lose out on the factions strengths. With Obliterators they are a unit that shoots, can't be interacted with and then has decent offensive and defensive capabilities, in subsequent turns, so they trade well.

But if they are not possible to place, they lose a lot of their sparkle.

Also, CSM works better when there are multiple threats presented simultaneously and Obliterators work best by having a turn where they are hidden, which works against the faction symmetry, in my opinion.

So I replaced the Obliterators with Chosen and an Exalted Champion. They go in the Chaos Land Raider and present a turn 1 threat that can just demolish a DZ. If there's screens the Seekers can clear them and then the Chosen go in. I've found the unit has always made its points back and presents a threat that can't be ignored and draws attention away from other elements of the list.

Here it is:

Abaddon the Despoiler

Exalted Champion (Khorne)*

Dark Commune (Undivided)(x5)

Chosen (Khorne)(x10)

Helbrute (Nurgle)

Accursed Cultists (Undivided)(x16)

Chaos Cultists (Tzeentch)(x10)

Legionnaires (Undivided)(x10)

Chaos Bikes (Nurgle)(x3)

Warp Talons (Slaanesh)(x5)

Chaos Land Raider (Nurgle)

Forgefiend (Undivided)

Allies

Seekers (x5)

Nurglings (x3)

Nurglings (x3)

*Talisman of Burning Blood

Any thoughts?

Best,
Samii.

I prefer Legionnaires to Terminators because they A) give rerolls to Abaddon, meaning I don't need to use the undivided strat on him: that can go on the AC, B) give me some interesting shooting and assault options and C) are enough of a wound sink that if I expose them and the other shooting units, my opponent has to split fire and I don't have to pop the Nurgle strat immediately.

On that point, by waiting to pop that strat, I've saved up to 200-300 points worth of stuff: you have to think of it as investment in the other CSM units in your army, not just the unit its protecting.

Best,
Samii.

I have Something quite similar.

xxx Khorne Abba Lucius (2000 points)
Chaos Space Marines
Strike Force (2000 points)
Slaves to Darkness


CHARACTERS

Abaddon the Despoiler (310 points)
• Warlord
• 1x Drach’nyen
1x Talon of Horus

Lucius the Eternal (95 points)
• 1x Doom siren
1x Duellist’s sword and Lash of Torment

Warpsmith (70 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
• 1x Flamer tendril
1x Melta tendril
1x Plasma pistol
1x Warp hammer



BATTLELINE

Cultist Mob (55 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Brutal assault weapon
• 9x Chaos Cultist
• 9x Close combat weapon
9x Cultist firearm

Cultist Mob (55 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Brutal assault weapon
• 9x Chaos Cultist
• 9x Close combat weapon
9x Cultist firearm

Legionaries (90 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
• 1x Aspiring Champion
• 1x Chaos Icon
1x Close combat weapon
1x Heavy melee weapon
1x Plasma pistol
• 4x Legionary
• 1x Astartes chainsword
1x Balefire tome
4x Bolt pistol
4x Close combat weapon
1x Heavy melee weapon
1x Lascannon



DEDICATED TRANSPORTS

Chaos Rhino (75 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
• 1x Armoured tracks
1x Combi-bolter
1x Combi-weapon
1x Havoc launcher



OTHER DATASHEETS

Chaos Terminator Squad (390 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided
• 1x Terminator Champion
• 1x Chainfist
1x Combi-bolter
• 9x Chaos Terminator
• 2x Accursed weapon
1x Chainfist
7x Combi-bolter
6x Power fist
2x Reaper autocannon

Havocs (135 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided
• 1x Havoc Champion
• 1x Plasma gun
1x Power fist
• 4x Havoc
• 4x Close combat weapon
4x Havoc lascannon

Khorne Lord of Skulls (480 points)
• 1x Gorestorm cannon
1x Great cleaver of Khorne
1x Hades gatling cannon

Noise Marines (85 points)
• 1x Noise Champion
• 1x Chaos Icon
1x Close combat weapon
1x Doom siren
1x Power fist
1x Sonic blaster
• 4x Noise Marine
• 1x Blastmaster
4x Bolt pistol
4x Close combat weapon
3x Sonic blaster

Raptors (90 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
• 1x Raptor Champion
• 1x Plasma pistol
1x Power fist
• 4x Raptor
• 4x Astartes chainsword
2x Bolt pistol
2x Plasma pistol



ALLIED UNITS

Nurglings (35 points)
• 3x Nurgling Swarm
• 3x Diseased claws and teeth

Nurglings (35 points)
• 3x Nurgling Swarm
• 3x Diseased claws and teeth


Expect that the terminators are my pawns in which shadow the Lord of khorne moves Forward to Tank shock everything away. Lucius with the Legionaires im the rhino (cultists ho Out, Legionaires Go in) and the noise marines Take on another Side with fireing Angle.

When enemy blasts Lord of khorne away the Warp Smith Supports the rhino and suddenly blastmaster and lascanon Hit in 2s while sustained Hit at 5+. But Warp Smith ist more because i painted Up a cool model with it.

What do you think?

I think your list is stronger and can do everything right to Score big.

Oblits are incredibly popular though I must say! CSM won a huge 190 player GT in CA the other day...used 4 obliterators, as did 2nd place also running CSM. Common thread is Chosen in Rhinos which I can attest has been great. I run a 10x man Fabius Bile unit which always puts in work. Without natural invulnerable saves or feel no pains, they really need that protective shell, Fabius taking them to T5 is super helpful, and +1 to melee strength doesn't hurt either.

Either way...enjoy your games now girls and boys. We're getting hit with a nerf on the next dataslate for sure. Wouldn't be surprised to see Chosen get back corrected, as well as Oblits and Forgefiends going up even more. Lots of great tools leftover in the toolbox though fortunately.

Yeah, I've seen CSM are pulling ahead of Aeldari now.

This doesn't surprise me: I was regularly winning stand up firefights with Aeldari for a while now.

They have a better objective game of course, in my opinion.

But if you use Allies and Accursed Cultists intelligently, you can still lock them out.

I think the trick with CSM is to balance objective scorers and power play: you need a bit of both, some units can do both, but you still need a good balance at the list building stage.

If you build too heavily into power (Chosen, Possessed, Oblits, Forgefiends etc.), CSM become a one-trick army, they don't have the tactical toolkit that SM get with Gladius. So you need Nurglings, Seekers etc. But if you take too many you lose out on the faction strength: damage output.

I think Accursed Cultists are a great balance of the two (tough, damage output and OC 2).

You also have to figure out how to Pact well.

I actually think CSM are the strongest 'bully' army in 40K (and have been for a while), but to win with them you need to be really tactical. Which is great army design.

Best,
Samii.

Since I play pure Word Bearers I've been avoiding Abaddon as he doesn't fit (although at some point I want to get one and convert him... if you can't beat 'em, join 'em and all that) so thus far I've been focusing on 10 Possessed w/MoP, 2x Plasma forgefiends, and then generally 10 Terminators with a Sorcerer

I think I definitely need to get Accursed Cultists, not only do they fit well but they are super nasty from what I've seen, but budget is quite limited right now and I'd need a Dark Commune as well.

Chosen look like they are solid too if you go all out with a Lord and Champion/MoE, so I might look at repurposing some of my Legionaries to be Chosen since nobody would really know the difference anyway.

What I really want to get though, are Warp Talons.

Wayniac wrote:
Since I play pure Word Bearers I've been avoiding Abaddon as he doesn't fit (although at some point I want to get one and convert him... if you can't beat 'em, join 'em and all that) so thus far I've been focusing on 10 Possessed w/MoP, 2x Plasma forgefiends, and then generally 10 Terminators with a Sorcerer

I think I definitely need to get Accursed Cultists, not only do they fit well but they are super nasty from what I've seen, but budget is quite limited right now and I'd need a Dark Commune as well.

Chosen look like they are solid too if you go all out with a Lord and Champion/MoE, so I might look at repurposing some of my Legionaries to be Chosen since nobody would really know the difference anyway.

What I really want to get though, are Warp Talons.

I own 10 chosen, I want to run a second 10x man and thats precisely what I’m doing… buying the legionnaire set and kitbashing with everything I can leftover from the chosen sprues. They’re so similar, no one woold ever question it…. (except for maybe people in this specific thread ) $50 vs $100 no brainer.

I’ve got a hell talon, hell blade, and of course a Heldrake, plus an unfinished fire raptor conversion. I’ve been looking at the rules for aircraft and struggling to feel inspired to go to the length of organising a large enough game to make them feel worth it. They seem a lot easier to ‘herd’ (or perhaps, a lot harder to ‘steer’), and they’ve got none of the rules that used to make them resilient, other than not being chargeable. Anybody bothered with them? (Except a hover mode drake, which is more of a fast and funky DP)

Hell Blade and hell Talon are Legends now and dont seem to do anything with so Low ap and shots.
Only nice stuff about heldrakes was that you could Box your enemy in their deployment Zone Turn 1 when you got Turn 1. But now with that you have to Go the full length Up and down you need to stand Out in the Open to do that and that is a super risky move. One that you can do with 70 - 95 Points of nurglings cheaper and much less risky.

Yeah, and plus you now need to measure its flight over terrain like Pythagoras. I’m honestly not sure what flyers are *for* in this edition. Almost feels like they’ve deliberately written them so janky that there’s no need to rebalance them because nobody will bother fielding them.

Seems like GW couldn't have kept Fly the rule in core rules, and for traditional flyer datasheets just repurposed the "supersonic" ability.

i.e
Heldrake
"Supersonic"
-Model must move it's minimum distance in a 180 degree direction, if it travels off the board, can't shoot, can't perform actions, etc etc...
-This model ignores all terrain features for the purpose of movement.
-Hard to hit, -1 when resolving shooting attacks against this model

It's not like a jet in the classic sense of the word would be flying that close to the ground that terrain would bother it. Silly.

Hi All,

So, I've been playtesting quite a bit against my mates Eldar. Every time I've been hammering him. He runs the Night Spinner meta list that is in vogue right now. I run the list I posted a while back (minor correction: the Exalted Champion is now a Chaos Lord).

It seems he can't do enough damage, even though I can't touch him with the indirect. He chips wounds off a Land Raider, kills a few cultists etc. Then, if he comes out of cover, he just gets blasted off the objectives every time.

If he stays out of sight, no problem I just flood his DZ with rapid ingress Accursed Cultists and Warp Talons.

The CSM meta seems to be leaning into assault, but I think blending shooting and assault is the real key to effective CSM.

Also the Helbrute is such a great force multiplier, against Orks, Space Wolves, World Eaters, it makes your own assault units with Slasnesh and Khorne marks much much better and dramatically increases the shooting effeciency of Tzeentch and Nurgle.

I'm surprised they aren't taken in ever list.

Best,
Samii.

When, in which round, is your helbrute normaly shoot down? For me without nurgle strat it was always like,"Aha thats your force mutiplier" and it was killed

 Fip wrote:
When, in which round, is your helbrute normaly shoot down? For me without nurgle strat it was always like,"Aha thats your force mutiplier" and it was killed

I'll address this with an illustrative scenario.

In the last game my Eldar opponent went first (the Night Spinner spam list). I had everything hidden, my Nurgle LR with Chosen on the line, and the Night Spinners and flicker jumping Warp Spiders killed a few Accursed Cultists (which regenerated later). He moved his Wraithguard onto an objective on one flank and a Harlequin troupe in a Starweaver on the other.

My turn everything jumps out and Abaddon pops reroll hits. The FF kills seven Wraithguard, and the LR finishes them off and the Spirtseer leader. The Helbrute, bikes and Legionnaires demech the Harelquins and then the Chosen take the objective off them. Warp Spiders are killed by Accursed Cultists. The Yncarne has no good places to pop up.

His turn its basically a stalemate: if he moves another unit out of his DZ, the overwatch from FF wipes it out (with Abaddon rerolls), if the Yncarne challenges the Chosen, with Khorne strat its basically dead too.

So, I've lost a few Accursed Cultists, maybe some Chosen and my opponent at this point has lost most of his army, except the Night Spinners.

The Helbrute gives such incredible firepower utility to an optimised CSM list with Nurgle/Tzeentch (where both abilities crit on 5+), it doesn't matter after the first volley if the enemy kills it. That's assuming they still can, its done its job. The bikes, FF, LR, Legionnaires (even Cultists) just gain so much firepower utility from it, in terms of target choice. They can crack armour, elite infantry, hordes etc. Against assault armies, the same is true for Khorne and Slaanesh. So, the Chosen and Warp Talons gain (even more) target utility.
Knowing this is one of the reasons the Yncarne was hesitant to drop in my DZ, when a single Warp Talon unit can solo it, in range of the Helbrute.

On a separate note, I'm going to make a couple of changes to my list. I'm going to replace the Accursed Cultist blob with a smaller min size unit and a Chaos Spawn unit. I'm dropping the Dark Commune. I think the great thing about Chaos is that they do cheap, tough scoring units well. The smaller AC unit becomes like a Necron blob that doesn't need max size or characters (to benefit from the regen), the Chaos Spawn aren't great, but they are cheap and faster than regular AC. With a lot of cheap, tough, distributed objective scoring units I think the list can become overwhelming to play against.

I have enough hard hitters in the Chosen, FF and Abaddon. Bikes, Warp Talons and Spawn can do work if they need to. Also, I'm changing the Chaos Lord to a MoP. The extra movement (+4") you get from him, means that Chosen unit in the LR can charge on turn 1 deep into the enemy DZ, so capture outpost is guaranteed, without screens.

I have enough points left for a Changeling. Ideally, I'd like Cypher. I've found that he can be used to stop going to ground. This might be a bit obscure, in 10th edition it's true its easier to get cover, but with the terrain setups if you want to hold an objective with infantry, a lot of them need to be in the open. My opponent loves to go to ground with Wraithguard, on objectives. Being able to stop this could be useful.

Best,
Samii.

Another Helbrute anecdote.

A Cultist unit, within range of it was able to kill almost an entire ork mob with shooting, thanks to the crits on 5+ and rerolls from Abaddon.

A single Cultist unit. That's ridiculous levels of utility.

Relatedly, I've been using the smaller AC unit and it has been doing extremely well for me. For fun, I played a mirror match. The same combo (LR and FF) that killed an entire Wraithguard unit, failed to kill the single AC unit on an objective. I was giving them a 4++ with Abaddon. They went down to two big guys, but next turn I just regenerated a big one and three of the small ones. Blast mitigation helped.

Again, for the cost (95 points) that's ridiculous utility.

Best,
Samii.

"... and rerolls from Abaddon."

Hmm...

That's nice to know, thank for the explanation.

If you go big on MoP, Chosen first Turn Charge you can sprinkle in an MoE (Master of Executions) for Character Snipping.

I guess in a mirror match you could take out Abbadon of a Terminator unit and maybe half the unit by first strike and then fighting on death.
First MoP Precision shot with dagger on Abbadon them Precision Melee with rerolls from MoE. Maybe with Khorne relic for more reliability?

Edit:
That way you can have captured enemy outpost and it was all worth it, because Abbadon and some terminator kills are an uptrade for your whole first strike unit in points.

Yes, I actually like the idea of the Turn 1 Chosen bomb with MoE and MoP.

Ordinarily, I would not want to spend that many points on a unit, but it can literally demolish the enemy DZ. It force the opponent to screen, but not all armies have screens and you can always wait until they're gone before unleashing it. With the LR, the threat range is just so massive and there's no real counter, as the Nurgle strat protects you completely from shooting.

I actually think this could be a real winner.

Best,
Samii.

 Fip wrote:
That's nice to know, thank for the explanation.

If you go big on MoP, Chosen first Turn Charge you can sprinkle in an MoE (Master of Executions) for Character Snipping.

I guess in a mirror match you could take out Abbadon of a Terminator unit and maybe half the unit by first strike and then fighting on death.
First MoP Precision shot with dagger on Abbadon them Precision Melee with rerolls from MoE. Maybe with Khorne relic for more reliability?

Edit:
That way you can have captured enemy outpost and it was all worth it, because Abbadon and some terminator kills are an uptrade for your whole first strike unit in points.

I like this combo a lot, will deffo give it a try! Sadly nobody's bringing a Khorne relic in a unit that's being joined by a Psyker - everyone needs to be Marked the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you bring Slaanesh Warp Talons as a utility unit, should it prove unnecessary to DS them then they can join in the game of tag.

So how do you get a first turn charge with Chosen?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So how do you get a first turn charge with Chosen?

Presuming dawn of war and LR is leading the charge...

LR moves 10" + disembark 3" + advance w/ MoP 2" - 7" + charge w/ MoP 3" - 13".

Probably use a CP to re-roll charge roll for better than avg roll.

So a threat range of: 18" - 33" with the avg dice roll being ~24"

Provided my math is right...

Pretty spicey!

 whembly wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So how do you get a first turn charge with Chosen?

Presuming dawn of war and LR is leading the charge...

LR moves 10" + disembark 3" + advance w/ MoP 2" - 7" + charge w/ MoP 3" - 13".

Probably use a CP to re-roll charge roll for better than avg roll.

So a threat range of: 18" - 33" with the avg dice roll being ~24"

Provided my math is right...

Pretty spicey!

You can't Advance from a Disembark. Not to my knowledge.

Yeah, no advancing after disembarking.

 JNAProductions wrote:
You can't Advance from a Disembark. Not to my knowledge.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah, no advancing after disembarking.

I stand corrected.

LR moves 10" + disembark 3" + charge w/ MoP 3" - 13".

So a threat range of: 16" - 26" with the avg dice roll being ~20"

Still... not too shabby.

Hmm. Do we get to measure disembark from the tip of the LR tracks, or do we lose some reach to the recessed front door? Is this a binary win/lose the game gambit based on whether or not we throw a 10+ with a reroll? Are there many factions that can make us lose the reroll or penalise our charge range? Are there any means to improve our charge? It's going to be epic when it works but I'm really not liking those odds, this fails more often than not except against the greenest marks.

Does it bug anyone else that the Master of Possession has a movement of 8", but Possessed have a movement of 9"?

World championships metawatch article’s live.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/11/23/warhammer-40000-metawatch-the-world-champions-of-warhammer/

The winning list was an incredibly tight and efficient Rhino & Torments list. I’m looking at it and presuming each Rhino carries a Legionary squad and a Chosen squad with Chaos Lord? I guess they’re using their free strats to throw down challenges and activate full rerolls after a first turn of everything that’s not a Forgefiend advancing, and cheerfully ignore Callidus and similar counter-stratagem stuff.

CSM are sitting at a 54% win rate, which is the absolute sweet spot. The studio mainly seems to nerf and buff armies to keep them within 45-55%, so hopefully we won’t have a lot of points hikes to deal with.

The only thing that will happen is that GW will increase the price of Chosen and Torments.

Okay, so, how are we weighing up MoE vs Lord using challenge strat as and when?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The only thing that will happen is that GW will increase the price of Chosen and Torments.

Most likely. While I think those changes are probably warranted, I think the bigger balance issue with CSM is in the strats and Mark interactions. I think the strats are probably a bit too powerful given how permissive the Mark rules are and that's one of the big drivers of moist successful CSM lists. Most good lists are set up to always get the maximum value from the strats and it leads to weird interactions like Noise Marines in Nurgle Rhinos, or basically all transport vehicles being Nurgle to make use of the strat.

I suspect the following rebalances are being playtested:
- Chosen price hike
- Accursed Cultists price hike
- Transports and passengers having to have the same Marks
- Transports only being allowed to carry one unit

I probably should clarify RE the LR.

If you tilt the base, then disembark 3," move 8," advance d6 + 1" and charge 2d6 + 1," you will hit the enemy DZ fairly reliably.

Of course, its not a guarantee but most armies lack the ability to do this.

You can do it with a Rhino too.

Best,
Samii.

 lindsay40k wrote:
- Transports only being allowed to carry one unit

Why that one, specifically? Transports being able to carry multiple units has been a thing since 8th. Why change it now?

A unit can't advance after leaving transport. Still the transport land raider can advance. Of course you loose the shooting, but afterwards the units dropping out should be able to charge. A disembarked unit counts as having moved, but not advanced. So can still charge in any case. Or do I miss something? So the calculation is

LR moves 10" + d6advance + disembark 3" + charge w/ MoP 4" - 19".

So a threat range of: 17" - 31" with the avg dice roll being ~23"

Assault Ramp: Each time a unit disembarks from this model after it has made a Normal move, that unit is still eligible to declare a charge this turn.

Land Raider can't advance and do this.

Samii wrote:
I probably should clarify RE the LR.

If you tilt the base, then disembark 3," move 8," advance d6 + 1" and charge 2d6 + 1," you will hit the enemy DZ fairly reliably.

Of course, its not a guarantee but most armies lack the ability to do this.

You can do it with a Rhino too.

Best,
Samii.

The move is measured based on the path of the part of the model that moves the furthest, so you can't get "extra" movement by tilting the model.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
- Transports only being allowed to carry one unit

Why that one, specifically? Transports being able to carry multiple units has been a thing since 8th. Why change it now?

A handful of armies won tournaments with the (dis)loyal 32 and GW waged a furiously disproportionate war on soup, driving a truck through every thematically diverse grand alliance collection and forcing them to climb through a bewilderingly complicated and inconsistent obstacle course with topography that changed every six months (and ultimately parked on “Traitor Guard are a kind of Chaos Space Marine, take a platoon of them if you want”), it would be entirely on-brand for a tournament win by three Rhinos full of Heretacs and Chosen to beget a severe over-correction of a core rule that wildly oscillates until the twilight of 11th edition

 Rihgu wrote:

Samii wrote:
I probably should clarify RE the LR.

If you tilt the base, then disembark 3," move 8," advance d6 + 1" and charge 2d6 + 1," you will hit the enemy DZ fairly reliably.

Of course, its not a guarantee but most armies lack the ability to do this.

You can do it with a Rhino too.

Best,
Samii.

The move is measured based on the path of the part of the model that moves the furthest, so you can't get "extra" movement by tilting the model.

Ahh, you're "that guy". Maybe not technically cheating, but....

He's not the one tilting the model. How does that make him 'that guy'?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
He's not the one tilting the model. How does that make him 'that guy'?

Nevermind me: the tilt would count as a Normal Move, so couldn't be done in this scenario.

Hangover from another edition.

Best,
Samii.

He is not cheating as he didn't count the extra movement into his calculations. As you can deploy tilted. That way it wouldn't be a move. Only when you tilt in the movement phase it is a normal move.

Still the calculations are right as you deploy 3' move 8' with MoP, advance d6+1 and then charge d6+1. That are 4 inch more movement than with a chaos lord. So you base move 13' and then go 3d6. Which is quite well and even if it might be with 11' slightly above your average of 10.5 with 3d6 if you go first it is really good. It is also a huge threat if your opponent goes first and you have some chaincannon havocs in a rhino to clear any shield infront of the heavy stuff. That way he can not move out of his deployment zone basically without giving you a very reliable charge.

Edit 2:
With a reroll it is a 64,8 % probability to hit the enemy deployment zone.

We can make those odds on scoring a turn one touchdown even better. Eye of Tzeentch gives us a solid chance of rerolling the advance and also the charge, and sometimes we’ll take second turn and be able to save a CP from the opponent’s turn. We’re probably looking at odds around 75% with that. I’m ill atm and not up to working it out in detail.

What do we reckon about Daemon allies? Nurglings seem to be a really popular filler unit, both in terms of army budgets and battlefields. Seekers are interesting me, they look like the most reliable turn one traffic jam. Bloodcrushers seem like a solid hammer unit, with potential synergy with Warp Talons. Flamers with an EF can pose as an early game overwatch machine. Horrors look okay with a Herald. Plaguebearers are a plant-the-flag unit that can deep strike and potentially have OC3 (though I haven’t played many games where high OC has outperformed outright sweeping). A Beast seems like an interesting DS tank that can gradually bully a unit that lacks high damage output.

 lindsay40k wrote:
We can make those odds on scoring a turn one touchdown even better. Eye of Tzeentch gives us a solid chance of rerolling the advance and also the charge, and sometimes we’ll take second turn and be able to save a CP from the opponent’s turn. We’re probably looking at odds around 75% with that. I’m ill atm and not up to working it out in detail.

What do we reckon about Daemon allies? Nurglings seem to be a really popular filler unit, both in terms of army budgets and battlefields. Seekers are interesting me, they look like the most reliable turn one traffic jam. Bloodcrushers seem like a solid hammer unit, with potential synergy with Warp Talons. Flamers with an EF can pose as an early game overwatch machine. Horrors look okay with a Herald. Plaguebearers are a plant-the-flag unit that can deep strike and potentially have OC3 (though I haven’t played many games where high OC has outperformed outright sweeping). A Beast seems like an interesting DS tank that can gradually bully a unit that lacks high damage output.

Oh yeah, that's super nice. With 2 times reroll of the 2 separate rolls it really improves the odds.

Nurglings for easy scoring
Syllesske with daemonetts seems nice.
And blue Scribes for scoring but don't know why they are so hyped for their scoring ability.
The Changeling for Deep Strike scoring lulz that may bind at least 2-3 units of the enemy in removing him.


You can also play Abandon, that way you get the CP also, quite expensive ofc, but with 10 Legionaires as distraction carnifex and a rhino still solid. Especially standing back by moving normally in the first round for full shooting rerolls on for example obliterators or forgefiends and then counter charging whatever killed the chosen. Popping the nurgle strat if necessary.

Hi all,

I've gone back to the Terminator brick with Abaddon, for a few reasons:

1) To include it I dropped the Legionnaire unit, bikes and some Oblits. I justify this, because I always want a unit with Abaddon. The Legionnaires are too fragile, while Oblits lack the damage output to be justifiable and are too slow. If I want the Oblits to get decent shooting they need Abaddon for the rerolls, meaning I have to expose him, in any case. The bikes are a loss, but you can't have everything.

2) The unit can be played around, sure, but I have enough damage output from other units, FF, Chosen, LR etc. and the key to CSM is having a lot of tough, cheap scoring units. Its natural predators (FF and precision Lords) can be countered with the Nurgle strat and screening. Seekers are an excellent unit for screening out the Terminator blob.

3) The overwatch from the unit is insane. I like it because I can overwatch, if the opponent goes first, dark pact, still get rerolls from the Terminator innate ability and then get a command point back to use on another strat that turn.

4) The unit gives me a lot of tactical play: with the res strat and advance and charge strat it can counter-attack very effectively. If I move out 5" from the deployment zone, overwatch, Nurgle strat, then in my turn if any died, I can get a charge off into my opponent's DZ and still shoot, which is a very very nasty combo.

5) The unit doesn't need Abaddon's buffs, meaning I can use him to shore up my infantry with a 4++, or give rerolls, while the unit still fights at maximum efficiency.

6) Last, but not least. The deterrence potential for this unit, is so high once an opponent understands its threat ranges and lethality, you basically control the mid board without ever having to commit.

In summary, the unit is expensive but I have access to a lot of cheap, tough heavy lifters in my list (Chosen, LR, AC, FF) that it doesn't hurt me to include it the way it might in another less point efficient faction. And when the unit can be leveraged its damage potential is just so disproportionate that there's no real counter play.

Best,
Samii.

I’ve been finding Seekers incredibly strong. Be it making a T1 traffic jam, escorting a deathstar, or zooming off to tag objective, or just bullying a fragile gunner unit, most games give them a chance to shine.

What is the best strategy against 3 x full Units acurssed cultists+ 3 demagogues?

Can Abbadon and termis kill one full Units in Shooting and another in Fight Phase or will they get tarpited and then killed by the third unit of ac?

 Fip wrote:
What is the best strategy against 3 x full Units acurssed cultists+ 3 demagogues?

Can Abbadon and termis kill one full Units in Shooting and another in Fight Phase or will they get tarpited and then killed by the third unit of ac?

Traitor Guard, Masters of Executions, and general Challenge strat. Snipe the Demagogues and the cultists die 50% faster. As a general point I think a guard squad are a very good match for MoE, all it takes is your opponent using a defensive strat or two and he can easily whiff the kill even against like a lieutenant, and they do a nice job of filling up space. (Wild that after two editions of GW waging all-out war against soup, the disloyal 32 are now simply part of our codex.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe throw in Cypher to try to stop the dead Demagogues from resurrecting with Skinshift.

 Fip wrote:
What is the best strategy against 3 x full Units acurssed cultists+ 3 demagogues?

Can Abbadon and termis kill one full Units in Shooting and another in Fight Phase or will they get tarpited and then killed by the third unit of ac?

At this point the best approach is probably wait until the new balance dataslate. I strongly suspect Accursed Cultists and/or Demagogues will be getting a fairly heavy nerf.

Some updated thoughts:

- Chosen do better than I originally gave them credit for. Even without an invulnerable save, 3 wounds is often handy and the free shoot/charge and advance is excellent. I think they were priced correctly originally but I do like their current costing.

- Possessed are still strong but they really are an elegant weapon and if pointed incorrectly will be wasted. I still feel they're costed correctly although the MOP isn't as integral as originally thought. He's a good unit but he's not a mandatory tax on them.

- Terminators: not as tough as you think, they've been cut through every game i've played. I think they'll possibly snag a slight point decrease in January (they should do). I think closer to 30pts than 40pts pm is right.

- Havocs: Just not that good for their price imho. Two las and two auto couldn't kill a single wraithtlord in two turns of shooting. I think they need a drop closer to the 100pts, i think 20 - 25pts a model rather than their present 40ish is more reasonable for what they do.

- Oblits - that 24" range and slow movement really hurts but I think they were priced right slightly lower. Every game I have played they have had a huge target on their head so even as a distraction carnifex they do well. Personally I still like running them as Tzeentch for that heal/respawn. Overall still a good unit and I think about right. If I had a wishlist here it would be for their anti-tank weapon to be 30"+ rather than 24".

- Defilers - too expensive relative to their walker peers like Wraithlords and Primaris Dreds etc. a 3+/5++ is not that good... personally I think the weakness is in their ability rather than anything else and they should have something more fitting than just being able to walk over units. Where they are now, i'd drop them more to the 150pts area or keep them the same cost and give them a better inbuilt ability, perhaps something like -1 damage akin to other dreds of that size or at least a 2+ save!

- Abaddon - still solid but a bit too expensive now for what he does. Yes the bubble is good but you're usually only using two of them, you need to have had your own command phase and he's VERY slow unless you're plugging in a CP that is better used elsewhere so the 4++ can sometimes be a trap, especially as it doesn't affect vehicles. 310pts is too much, mid-late 200's is probably right. I think if you're going to keep him at 310, he needs a slight boost, something like the ability to join Chosen as a leader or pump him up to T6.

Forgefiends - still excellent but VERY glass cannon to any true anti-tank. I think they're right where they are. Mix of nurgle and undivided here. I have usually used two but I may drop to one as there are possibly more flexible and cost effective units for that whopping 180pts.

Cultists - Again, exceptionally useful but I underestimated them and they've been a useful 55pt unit every time. The grenade launcher, heavy slugger and flamer plus sticky objectives is fantastic. I often use them as Tzeentch for that 5+ lethals.

Bikers - I still think they're solid but don't expect them to do too much work. They're back line grabbers and scavangers (ie picking off weak lone operative characters with no or poor invuls, very light infantry or wounded vehicles at the back). They may occasionally get lucky with those plasma/melta but don't bet on it.

I have played allot against a meta-breaking Aeldari list (basically all wraight constructs) and a couple of games against Death Watch with my CSM. A few narrow (very narrow as in a point diff) losses. I think Chaos are in a good place overall and only seem to need some slight point tweaks to get them to a point of longevity.

I think points aren't really what's driving the power of CSM at the moment. Yes, Accursed Cultists are too good and Chosen should probably have their points cut reverted, but the real power for CSM right now comes from their strats and the ability to freely mix and match Marks to get the best combos on every unit. Sadly, I think that sort of nuance is not likely to register for GW and we might see some unwarratned points increases to a lot of units.

I think you’re right, if Obscuration doesn’t get rebalanced - for instance, to only confer 12” to Nurgle infantry - then I suspect either our Land Raider will be repriced as if it were always invisible, or it’ll be priced the same as the Loyalist one and the units that tend to the most benefit from riding an invisible LR will get hit by the price hike.

Returning to Daemon allies: anyone tried using Nurglings and Seekers to cordon off a no man’s land objective and then DS Plaguebearers onto it? With a cheeky rapid insertion, they can be scoring at the start of your turn two in up to half of games. With a Herald, they can probably hold the position against heavy odds, and if they don’t get wiped out, they can potentially leave the Nurglings to block deep strikes and run off to graffiti something else.

lindsay40k wrote:I think you’re right, if Obscuration doesn’t get rebalanced - for instance, to only confer 12” to Nurgle infantry - then I suspect either our Land Raider will be repriced as if it were always invisible, or it’ll be priced the same as the Loyalist one and the units that tend to the most benefit from riding an invisible LR will get hit by the price hike.

I don't see why Obscuration is perceived to need re-balancing in that kind of way? A single nurgle unit per SP can't be targeted unless within 12". Why is that over powered or have I misunderstood the rule?

Sure, I get that it's powerful in a few cases aka on a land raider (which being honest isn't exactly a A+ unit) but, at the same time, so is the ability to plug in a 6 whenever needed on top of a free re-roll to hit and wound. Every army has a nifty ability but this is hardly a broken strat imho. It's not a 1CP = Invulnerable, it's just a 1CP = you need to get much closer to hurt me if I am nurgle and picking nurgle surrenders other benefits. It plays into our strengths whilst also eventually making itself moot because CSM are a largely melee focused army so we're getting closer. At worst it needs moving to 2 CP for a vehicle transporting 1+ units (or just straight up 2CP for a vehicle) and/or transports need changing to only being able to be allowed units with the same mark or Undivided, both of which make reasonable sense (which means GW will never do it).

lindsay40k wrote:Returning to Daemon allies: anyone tried using Nurglings and Seekers to cordon off a no man’s land objective and then DS Plaguebearers onto it? With a cheeky rapid insertion, they can be scoring at the start of your turn two in up to half of games. With a Herald, they can probably hold the position against heavy odds, and if they don’t get wiped out, they can potentially leave the Nurglings to block deep strikes and run off to graffiti something else.

I really like nurglings although their 0 OC is a little annoying. Plague bearers have been useful dropping in and getting back line or far objectives late game for me. They're tough enough to weather light fire and not often worth the enemy putting in enough resources at that stage to budge them.

Using Nurglings, a seeker and a unit of plague bearers is a fair commitment though, you're talking at least 10% of your points in a 2k game on units without any shooting and who would prefer to be in combat sitting stationary on an objective and they're far from indestructable. I think it might be an over-commitment unless it's the right scenario imho.

Semper wrote:

lindsay40k wrote:I think you’re right, if Obscuration doesn’t get rebalanced - for instance, to only confer 12” to Nurgle infantry - then I suspect either our Land Raider will be repriced as if it were always invisible, or it’ll be priced the same as the Loyalist one and the units that tend to the most benefit from riding an invisible LR will get hit by the price hike.

I don't see why Obscuration is perceived to need re-balancing in that kind of way? A single nurgle unit per SP can't be targeted unless within 12". Why is that over powered or have I misunderstood the rule?

Sure, I get that it's powerful in a few cases aka on a land raider (which being honest isn't exactly a A+ unit) but, at the same time, so is the ability to plug in a 6 whenever needed on top of a free re-roll to hit and wound. Every army has a nifty ability but this is hardly a broken strat imho. It's not a 1CP = Invulnerable, it's just a 1CP = you need to get much closer to hurt me if I am nurgle and picking nurgle surrenders other benefits.

In practice it basically does make the target invulnerable. It's almost always used on a transport in turn 1, or something like a Maulerfiend or supporting Helbrute throughout the game. Most armies will not be able to get more than 1 or 2 units (if any) within 12" in turn 1, so you're basically guaranteeing a unit's survival for a turn while also messing with your opponent's targeting priority. Being able to aggressively deploy a transport in turn 1 is a massive advantage for an army that likes to get in close. Additionally, Nurgle makes shooting units better, so you're not really giving up much, if anything, on a Maulerfiend or Land Raider to give it access to the strat.

Semper wrote:
It plays into our strengths whilst also eventually making itself moot because CSM are a largely melee focused army so we're getting closer. At worst it needs moving to 2 CP for a vehicle transporting 1+ units (or just straight up 2CP for a vehicle) and/or transports need changing to only being able to be allowed units with the same mark or Undivided, both of which make reasonable sense (which means GW will never do it).

CSM still have plenty of units that want to stay ack and shoot, and it just so happens Nurgle is a good option for them anyway. Even a single turn of not being shot at can be huge for your survivability. Most of the other Lone Op strats have restrictions like "infantry only", which might be the way to go. One problem is GW have this concept for the strats in the detachment to get better when used on the corresponding unit and I think they'll be reluctant to move away from that. They could completely rewrite the Nurgle bonus to just do something completely different, like give the benefit of cover or a 6+ FNP for the phase.

I think CSM need some sort of restriction on mixing Marks. At the moment it's too easy to get exactly the benefits you want on every unit. This then has an annoying knock-on effect on god-specific armies (primarily EC at this point), making them much worse than less thematic armies. Restricting transports to only carrying units with the same Mark would be a good start. I wouldn't even mind some minor penalty to Ld for being close to a differently marked unit to encourage more thought about Marks and army composition.

Slipspace wrote:

Semper wrote:

lindsay40k wrote:I think you’re right, if Obscuration doesn’t get rebalanced - for instance, to only confer 12” to Nurgle infantry - then I suspect either our Land Raider will be repriced as if it were always invisible, or it’ll be priced the same as the Loyalist one and the units that tend to the most benefit from riding an invisible LR will get hit by the price hike.

I don't see why Obscuration is perceived to need re-balancing in that kind of way? A single nurgle unit per SP can't be targeted unless within 12". Why is that over powered or have I misunderstood the rule?

Sure, I get that it's powerful in a few cases aka on a land raider (which being honest isn't exactly a A+ unit) but, at the same time, so is the ability to plug in a 6 whenever needed on top of a free re-roll to hit and wound. Every army has a nifty ability but this is hardly a broken strat imho. It's not a 1CP = Invulnerable, it's just a 1CP = you need to get much closer to hurt me if I am nurgle and picking nurgle surrenders other benefits.

In practice it basically does make the target invulnerable. It's almost always used on a transport in turn 1, or something like a Maulerfiend or supporting Helbrute throughout the game. Most armies will not be able to get more than 1 or 2 units (if any) within 12" in turn 1, so you're basically guaranteeing a unit's survival for a turn while also messing with your opponent's targeting priority. Being able to aggressively deploy a transport in turn 1 is a massive advantage for an army that likes to get in close. Additionally, Nurgle makes shooting units better, so you're not really giving up much, if anything, on a Maulerfiend or Land Raider to give it access to the strat.

I still don't understand what's wrong with this on a single unit though? Seems like an issue my opponent needs to strategically and tactically overcome... is this not a strategy game?

Semper wrote:
It plays into our strengths whilst also eventually making itself moot because CSM are a largely melee focused army so we're getting closer. At worst it needs moving to 2 CP for a vehicle transporting 1+ units (or just straight up 2CP for a vehicle) and/or transports need changing to only being able to be allowed units with the same mark or Undivided, both of which make reasonable sense (which means GW will never do it).

CSM still have plenty of units that want to stay ack and shoot, and it just so happens Nurgle is a good option for them anyway. Even a single turn of not being shot at can be huge for your survivability. Most of the other Lone Op strats have restrictions like "infantry only", which might be the way to go. One problem is GW have this concept for the strats in the detachment to get better when used on the corresponding unit and I think they'll be reluctant to move away from that. They could completely rewrite the Nurgle bonus to just do something completely different, like give the benefit of cover or a 6+ FNP for the phase.

I think CSM need some sort of restriction on mixing Marks. At the moment it's too easy to get exactly the benefits you want on every unit. This then has an annoying knock-on effect on god-specific armies (primarily EC at this point), making them much worse than less thematic armies. Restricting transports to only carrying units with the same Mark would be a good start. I wouldn't even mind some minor penalty to Ld for being close to a differently marked unit to encourage more thought about Marks and army composition.

Well... again, i don't understand why it needs that restriction when it's good? Why can't we have something nice!? Okay, I do think there's a fluff based argument that perhaps a mixed-mark list should only be led by a undivided lord but really, mixed marked units work together all the time.

This is only one detachment, there may likely be more coming that benefit being a mono mark and we're pretty confident EC are getting their own codex. Don't throw baby out with the bath water to wish list, i'd say! Or, perhaps the God specific armies work in specific ways and you just need to be more open minded.

If you want a fully marked nurgle army, then aim for Death Guard or perhaps understand you'll only be getting lethal hits on 6's whatever but you still get some form of benefit and build around that. If that's not good enough, then really you can play a 'nurgle' themed army that's - on paper - marked as khorne because that's how you want to play. No one is going to care or stop you because your army is green but playing mean. The only unit in the codex that's locked in that way are noise marines who have to be slaanesh and then the no-psyker khorne bits.

Semper wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Semper wrote:

lindsay40k wrote:I think you’re right, if Obscuration doesn’t get rebalanced - for instance, to only confer 12” to Nurgle infantry - then I suspect either our Land Raider will be repriced as if it were always invisible, or it’ll be priced the same as the Loyalist one and the units that tend to the most benefit from riding an invisible LR will get hit by the price hike.

I don't see why Obscuration is perceived to need re-balancing in that kind of way? A single nurgle unit per SP can't be targeted unless within 12". Why is that over powered or have I misunderstood the rule?

Sure, I get that it's powerful in a few cases aka on a land raider (which being honest isn't exactly a A+ unit) but, at the same time, so is the ability to plug in a 6 whenever needed on top of a free re-roll to hit and wound. Every army has a nifty ability but this is hardly a broken strat imho. It's not a 1CP = Invulnerable, it's just a 1CP = you need to get much closer to hurt me if I am nurgle and picking nurgle surrenders other benefits.

In practice it basically does make the target invulnerable. It's almost always used on a transport in turn 1, or something like a Maulerfiend or supporting Helbrute throughout the game. Most armies will not be able to get more than 1 or 2 units (if any) within 12" in turn 1, so you're basically guaranteeing a unit's survival for a turn while also messing with your opponent's targeting priority. Being able to aggressively deploy a transport in turn 1 is a massive advantage for an army that likes to get in close. Additionally, Nurgle makes shooting units better, so you're not really giving up much, if anything, on a Maulerfiend or Land Raider to give it access to the strat.

I still don't understand what's wrong with this on a single unit though? Seems like an issue my opponent needs to strategically and tactically overcome... is this not a strategy game?

It's the same reason Dark Eldar or Nids were nerfed in 9th, or Iron Hands in 8th - at a certain point the power of a rule/unit/strat/army is simply too high and needs to be adjusted. You can't just say "you should adjust and play around it" without practical examples of how that might actually work. (Note, I'm not saying CSM are overpowered to the same extent as those armies were, but it serves to illustrate the point).

I'm not saying the Nurgle strat definitely will get nerfed, but I think the problem CSM have from a design perspective right now is the lack of restrictions on how Marks interact makes costing strats, abilities and units very difficult. Take the Nurgle strat, for example. As suggested by someone above, do you now have to assume every transport and shooting unit will be Nurgle and cost them according to that assumption, thereby basically forcing people to give them that Mark or end up with overpriced units. That's a bad approach to game design because it severely restricts options. The appropriate solution assuming you've identified that strat as an issue is to adjust the strat so as not to interfere with balance elsewhere.

Well... again, i don't understand why it needs that restriction when it's good? Why can't we have something nice!?

It depends entirely on how good something is. It's not about saying you're not allowed nice things, its about determining whether the things you have are too nice. In the case of CSM I think most of the problems are multi-faceted, which will make coming up with solutions quite difficult.

Ahhh, I guess that's where the crux of our opinions differ. I don't see this as a problem. It's a single unit, for one phase of roughly 10 in a battleround, that becomes more difficult to attack for the cost of 1CP, a resource that we don't exactly have an abundance of.

I'd say if an opponent's whole battleplan is reliant on that one specific unit dying in specifically the shooting phase and if this isn't accomplished they're automatically considering it an unbalanced or unfair game, they probably should be considering that approach before considering how to create or alter a game.

I've played 40k for over 20years. Even without strats and special rules, there are vanilla moments where you will be unable to stop things from happening because you're ill prepared, have mis-moved or you have a good opponent. It's part of the game and just part of life. Sometimes there isn't anything you can do to stop something, it's about how you handle it when it arrives. Should we change the Grey Knights because they can move out of range and hide? Eldar and sisters because they can auto-pass saves? Should we change cover because it can be LOS blocking? Lone Operatives because they get the Obscuration rules for free built in? Where does it end?

I would agree with you if this strat could be played multiple times per turn or affect multiple units but it doesn't.

The issue you give for CSM is a universal one in 40k or any gaming system that isn't played with a carbon copy opponent (al la Chess). The moment you introduce special and fluffy rules you're off the balance wagon unless everyone has the exact same, at which point there are no fluffy rules in practice. I am not saying we shouldn't strive for balance but this multi-faceted issue isn't unique to CSM.

Ultimately, CSM are sitting at 55% win ratio. As a pure numbers exercise, they're where GW want them to be. This will change as GW boost other armies and nerf Aeldari a little (which is their normal approach). That may then reduce our 55% win ratio in which case the days of hiding a single transport for a single phase might become moot.

Pleasure discussing the matter with you, if you're even in and around Blackpool or Manchester, let me know and can maybe catch a game. For the sake and sanctity of the thread i'll refrain from responding further though.

So, I played a 2000 point game on Saturday, my first in a while, and used an interesting list. It was basically mostly armor with 3 x vindicators, a land raider, a predator, 2 x hellbrute, 10 chosen lead by a lord, 10 terminators lead by a sorcerer out of deep strike. It is my "classic" CSM list with no daemon units, and is not really "competitive" but more of a fun list. However there were some insights that might be helpful.....

The Vindicators: So I think these units do have some potential, especially if other units go up in points and these have a slight chance of coming down. MoN on them with the 5+ [sustained] on their massive gun really adds a major boost and makes them pretty deadly against most targets. I paired them with the hellbrutes giving them [lethal] and [sustained] but I think it was probably overkill as with S14 they are wounding everything on at least a 3+, and most infantry on a 2+. They are pretty hard to take down for anything other than the most dedicated AT weapons as they have T11 and 2+ save. At 190 they are probably still a bit to expensive for real consideration in competitive lists against the ridiculous forgefiend (which is 10 points cheaper for some reason), but I think if they got a healthy points cut to say 175 (and I assume forgefiends will probably get hit with nerf to at least points) I think their might be a place for them them.

Actually I think all of the classic CSM vehicles could probably use at least a small points cut (and the TS versions a major points cut). It would make the fire support options more interesting then just bring more forgefiends.

The 10 man terminator squad with the sorcerer was cool, but felt a bit to many eggs in one basket, especially as they got counter charged by Deathwing Knights lead by whatever the terminator character is, and so got stomped.

Also the Nurgle strat is mad good, especially against SM. Since all my vehicles were MoN, when he put Oath on a unit, I would use the strat, so basically eliminated Oath for all but one unit, which was a big deal. Preventing a unit from effectively being shot for one turn is pretty powerful (don't forget the -1 to hit against the original unit shooting as well). I don't know if it needs to be nerfed down to only infantry etc., it is kind of on the boardline (the re-roll all hits and wounds strat probably needs nerfing like every other rule in the game that is re-roll all hits and wounds).

I can't wait for the CSM codex, I really want more detachments.

What are our best units and tactics against Orks? I find that it's difficult to take objectives as they always outnumber me in both number of units and unit size. And without MoK it's hard to hurt their toughness 5 and 6 units for legionaries and the like. All of my games so far have been at 1000 points, but we are going up to 1500 on Monday. The only vehicles I have are 1 land raider, 1 forgefiend, and a helldrake. I have about 40 legionaries, 10 terminators, 5 chosen, 2 oblits, 5 raptors, Abbadon, Haarken, and all unnamed charactors except the cutlists and apostle. I do not play with cultists of any kind, and have no demons. I do have a few knights and 2 wardogs. Any advice would be great.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
What are our best units and tactics against Orks? I find that it's difficult to take objectives as they always outnumber me in both number of units and unit size. And without MoK it's hard to hurt their toughness 5 and 6 units for legionaries and the like. All of my games so far have been at 1000 points, but we are going up to 1500 on Monday. The only vehicles I have are 1 land raider, 1 forgefiend, and a helldrake. I have about 40 legionaries, 10 terminators, 5 chosen, 2 oblits, 5 raptors, Abbadon, Haarken, and all unnamed charactors except the cutlists and apostle. I do not play with cultists of any kind, and have no demons. I do have a few knights and 2 wardogs. Any advice would be great.

I usually build all comers lists, so usually include a unit or two for hoard clearing. If you are building to kill Orks then you can probably just focus on most of these. I assume since you say he outnumbers you that he is using big mobs of 20 or so. The forgefied with 3 ectoplasma gets +12 shots against a 20 man unit, so 15 to 21 shots. Combine that with the re-roll hits/wounds broken ass strat on undivided and you are probably killings most of that unit.

The obliterators can also do some work against hoards with their blast shot (+8 shots for two against 20 man so 10-20 shots) which is better against a 20 man than the warp hail (D6+4 st 8 -2 v D6+3 st 5 -1).

ten terminators with the accursed weapons and [Sustained] on 5+ with slannesh or undivided to use the strat would be good, with all the extra hits, but do wound on 4's.

Legionaries with Khrone could work, but you would want 10.

The 5 chosen all with accursed weapons and slannesh for [Sustained] on 5+ or undivided to use the strat could probably do some good damage, but again, 10 would be better.

For things that you might want to pick up to fight Orks particularly I would suggest

Daemon Prince w/wings: I used him sometimes and he is fast and good a bullying units (don't fight him against any heavy armor units). His 14 attacks having ap0 doesn't really matter to much against Orks.

Flamers of tzeentch could be good, but only wound on 5's (but can put out a bunch of shots from deep strike)

Possessed are also really good (not just against Orks either) and can throw out a whole heep of attacks.

This is my thoughts hope it helps.

Deathwing Assault box art depicts multiple Chaos Terminators with Thunder Hammers! We could be getting some exciting new options in the coming months

Balance Dataslate is out.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/01/30/metawatch-warhammer-40000-the-first-balance-dataslate-and-points-update-of-2024/

Accursed cultists revive in your Command phase now instead of both command phases and the OC got dropped to 1.

Profane Zeal is Chaos Undivided only now, and reroll the wound only.

Dark Obscuration is changed to 18"

The balance patch was basically what was expected. It sucks that they still have not realized how overcosted the classic CSM vehicles are, or some other units like the Lord Discordant, and just handed out nerfs without some point decreases in under preforming units to encourage diversity (personally I don't think these point adjustments are going to really change the lists most people play).

Also the nerf to the daemon allies sucks hard. I mean I understand they needed to do something about the nurglings issue, but it just stinks that now I can't just bring my bloodcrushers or some other daemon unit but have to bring the troops too, which I don't even have for Khrone.

The daemons restriction does nothing about Nurglings, they’re battleline and you can still take six units, you just pay 30pts more for it. I don’t understand what problem they were even trying to correct with this. I’ve just finished painting the Changeling and having to take a unit of Horrors with no hero in order to field him has completely killed my interest in him, especially since I play smaller games where that basically accounts for my entire daemonic quota. Chunkier things like Bloodcrushers are pretty much unusable.

They massively over-corrected as usual.

Forgefiends and Obliterators did not need to go up further.

The undivided strat didn't need hitting as hard as it did and imho it should have just been changed to full re-roll wounds and then everyone else can re-roll 1's to hit and wound.

The demon restrictions are silly but are the same as previous editions once they were split.

They completely overlooked units that are over-costed.

Chosen and Warp Talons, I get and agree with.

Dark Obscuration I disagree needed hitting but I can accept what has happened as a reasonable middle ground.

The vehicle's needing to have the same mark as their transported units.. I fully agree with and it should have been that way from day 1.

Yeah it's too bad since the previous Daemon addition rules were nice and convenient and their current solution doesn't fix the problem while making everyone else's life harder.

Points wise the Obliterators, Forgefiend, Accursed Cultists and Dark Commune all went up. No surprise there and I got A LOT of good usage out of them the last couple months.

My last game in January was:
Dark Commune (Eye of Tzeentch) + Max Accursed Cultists
MOP + 10 Possessed
Warpsmith
2x Forgefiend
2x Helbrute
Heldrake
10x Warp Talons
Cultist Mob

Virtually everything on that list got a points hike
Will be fun to figure out how I'm going to change up my Brazen Beasts for the next non-Crusade match.

 lindsay40k wrote:
The daemons restriction does nothing about Nurglings, they’re battleline and you can still take six units, you just pay 30pts more for it. I don’t understand what problem they were even trying to correct with this. I’ve just finished painting the Changeling and having to take a unit of Horrors with no hero in order to field him has completely killed my interest in him, especially since I play smaller games where that basically accounts for my entire daemonic quota. Chunkier things like Bloodcrushers are pretty much unusable.

I did not know nurglings were battleline I don't use them as I don't like them. So this patch did not even fix the worst abuse of the ally system. I mean, other than the lone operatives/nurglings for secondaries, daemon allies weren't really breaking the game were they?

I'm not understanding...what happened with daemonic allies now? I have been using Nurglings, Changeling and Scribes.

Let me see if I have it right... If you want to include a non-battleline daemonic ally (such as a scribe or or Changeling) you must also have an equal proportion of battleline units. 1 scribe, 1 battleline unit, 1 changeling one *more* battleline unit...and with the same keyword. In this case Tzeentch

Kangarupe wrote:
I'm not understanding...what happened with daemonic allies now? I have been using Nurglings, Changeling and Scribes.

Let me see if I have it right... If you want to include a non-battleline daemonic ally (such as a scribe or or Changeling) you must also have an equal proportion of battleline units. 1 scribe, 1 battleline unit, 1 changeling one *more* battleline unit...and with the same keyword. In this case Tzeentch

You have it correct.

that sucks lol, man they really gave us the business this go around.

I think it's a fairly reasonable change given that previous editions required something similar in order to run allies of any kind. Some armies being able to just grab the best unit to fill a gap in their roster is the kind of thing that can cause problems, especially when those models are also part of another entire army so just changing their points costs can have nock-on effects that you don't want.

I do think a lot of the other changes were too heavy handed. Several things have been hit multiple times. I think everyone can agree the Undivided Chosen with Lord, in a Nurgle Rhino was too good and needed adjusting. But GW chose to adjust both the Undivided and Nurgle strats and massively increase the cost of both units inside the transport, which seems excessive. There's also been no change to some comically bad units like the Lord Discordant. The annoying thing is, there's such a huge power difference between units depending on which Mark you give them I don't think GW can ever get this right. It's yet another piece of evidence in favour of changing the current points structure back, IMO.

The general arrangement in previous editions has been one or two "allied" Troops got you an "allied" HQ and options for an "allied" Fast Attack, Heavy Support, and Elite. Now, each Daemons Battleline unit we take can be accompanied by one Herald or DP or Greater Daemon or other. If you want to take a unit of Daemon cavalry led by a hero, you need to take TWO Battleline Daemon units, and they all have to be of the same alignment.

It's a restriction that basically means nothing to a Nurgle army (Nurglings are never a tax unit) but massively constrains Bloodcrushers and Horticulous. Flamers and Screamers, too, given that their full size unit plus a Tzeentch Battleline unit is more than 250pts. Polytheist daemonkin is basically completely dead.

(I say "allied" because for the first half of 40K's life Daemons and CSM were simply the same army.)

What do people think of a little dual-Venomcrawler / Helbrute mini death star? Pretty tough, nice output of fire, sustain & lethals on 5s, 380 points…. thoughts?

Slipspace wrote:
I think it's a fairly reasonable change given that previous editions required something similar in order to run allies of any kind. Some armies being able to just grab the best unit to fill a gap in their roster is the kind of thing that can cause problems, especially when those models are also part of another entire army so just changing their points costs can have nock-on effects that you don't want.

I do think a lot of the other changes were too heavy handed. Several things have been hit multiple times. I think everyone can agree the Undivided Chosen with Lord, in a Nurgle Rhino was too good and needed adjusting. But GW chose to adjust both the Undivided and Nurgle strats and massively increase the cost of both units inside the transport, which seems excessive. There's also been no change to some comically bad units like the Lord Discordant. The annoying thing is, there's such a huge power difference between units depending on which Mark you give them I don't think GW can ever get this right. It's yet another piece of evidence in favour of changing the current points structure back, IMO.

GW can't increase a rhinos points cost, because they would have to bump the cost of it for all armies. Does the DG or 1ksons or loyalist rhino have to pay for the fact that CSM have a good combo? Now marks could cost points and then, assuming priced correctly, even an undivided chosen+nurgle rhino combo could be okey. Even the whole undivided schtick could be that it combos with "god" stuff. But that would requier GW to intreduced separate points costs for upgrades, and they don't seem to be keen on that. At least not anytime soon.

Karol wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
I think it's a fairly reasonable change given that previous editions required something similar in order to run allies of any kind. Some armies being able to just grab the best unit to fill a gap in their roster is the kind of thing that can cause problems, especially when those models are also part of another entire army so just changing their points costs can have nock-on effects that you don't want.

I do think a lot of the other changes were too heavy handed. Several things have been hit multiple times. I think everyone can agree the Undivided Chosen with Lord, in a Nurgle Rhino was too good and needed adjusting. But GW chose to adjust both the Undivided and Nurgle strats and massively increase the cost of both units inside the transport, which seems excessive. There's also been no change to some comically bad units like the Lord Discordant. The annoying thing is, there's such a huge power difference between units depending on which Mark you give them I don't think GW can ever get this right. It's yet another piece of evidence in favour of changing the current points structure back, IMO.

GW can't increase a rhinos points cost, because they would have to bump the cost of it for all armies.

No they wouldn't.

From a balance perspective CSM are a mess. There are too many unpaid-for upgrades and abilities that have too many massive effects on the power of a unit. Marks are the main one because they also interact with strats. You also have a lot of units with Devastating Wounds that further interact with Dark Pacts and Marks to cause serious balance problems. While the Mark giving you access to improved Lethal/Sustained Hits in either shooting or melee might seem elegant thanks to the 4 gods each getting to have one of the 4 combinations that allows, it's led to stupid situations where things like Tzeentch Possessed are almost useless.

"Slipspace wrote:...There's also been no change to some comically bad units like the Lord Discordant..." (sorry did not want to repeat the whole quote just for one sentence).

This right here is my biggest grip with the balance update. Prior to the update GW touted, "we are going to look at internal balance, yada yada yada." The the balance pass comes and boom they hit what was basically the entirety of CSM competitive units and strats. Fine, that crap happens, look what happened to Custodies with the first balance pass. But then GW does NOTHING to address the terrible internal balance in the book. So, for CSM players, you are still just going to bring the same army as before, albeit with probably one less unit to make up the points changes, as there is no incentive to bring other units, except may a few like possessed that were only slightly nudged down by chosen. Lord Discordant? utterly trash. Daemon Princes? priced like a center piece model, yet fights like a light skirmisher. CSM classic vehicles? what's the point to bring a Vindicator when a Forgefied is still only 10 points more expensive. The Predator, hahahahahahahaha, right. The other chaos characters? Still not cheap enough to compete with the Lord, even at 95 points. They did nothing to fix any of these balance issues, so all the lists will probably still be lots of lord/chosen in a Rhino (ok so now the Rhino needs to be undivided as well, still very usable), with Forgefiends, obliterators, etc, with maybe possessed coming back into fashion, and probably Cypher for lone opp as can't due daemons for that anymore.

At least our Codex is basically around the corner (probably late April/May) so maybe some of this will be addressed then, and maybe new detachments will shake up the meta of what units people use, but overall this balance pass was utter crap for CSM, and not really because of the nerfs, but becasue of the lack to correct internal balance.

Cypher would rock if he only had deep strike. Alas...

I… struggle to argue with @xeen, there.

Re Tzeentch possessed - isn’t this a decent target for Skinshift? That can be 5W recovery, potentially 6 if an attached MoP wants to dig out a sniper’s bullet. (And is this MoP a good choice of bearer of the Eye of Tzeentch? Probably going to get to shoot and fight most turns it's in play...)

Tzeentch feels wasted on possessed. Slaanesh all the way…. advance and charge w/ unnatural swiftness and with an MoP you get an effective advance and charge range of 14 inches guaranteed or max 29 inches (now thats a charge!) plus exploding 5s on an already staggering amount of hits. Scary

Slipspace wrote:
From a balance perspective CSM are a mess. There are too many unpaid-for upgrades and abilities that have too many massive effects on the power of a unit. Marks are the main one because they also interact with strats. You also have a lot of units with Devastating Wounds that further interact with Dark Pacts and Marks to cause serious balance problems. While the Mark giving you access to improved Lethal/Sustained Hits in either shooting or melee might seem elegant thanks to the 4 gods each getting to have one of the 4 combinations that allows, it's led to stupid situations where things like Tzeentch Possessed are almost useless.

I agree, this is a problem and I don't see an easy solution to it. However, it's only going to be one of our detachments, so in the future there may be detachments that make say Mark of Tzeentch on Possessed a much more appealing option. Well, I hope so at least.

lindsay40k wrote:I… struggle to argue with @xeen, there.

Re Tzeentch possessed - isn’t this a decent target for Skinshift? That can be 5W recovery, potentially 6 if an attached MoP wants to dig out a sniper’s bullet. (And is this MoP a good choice of bearer of the Eye of Tzeentch? Probably going to get to shoot and fight most turns it's in play...)

Agreed Skinshift is nice, but I think his overall point is that your mark may not do much of anything if you don't favor shooting (or melee for Khorne) so it leads to situations where you may never want to give a certain unit a God's mark even if it's fairly fluffy.

I personally put Eye of Tzeentch on my Fell Commune + Accursed Cultists since they're really hard to obliterate so there's good odds of getting to use the eye the entire game. My MoP + Possessed are more of a cruise missile and rarely survive all 5 rounds.

Kangarupe wrote:
What do people think of a little dual-Venomcrawler / Helbrute mini death star? Pretty tough, nice output of fire, sustain & lethals on 5s, 380 points…. thoughts?

Seems nice and fluffy. Unfortunatly often you will be forced to split them because of Terrain. Also with Lots of Body blocking and movement blocking you can only Hope they get far. Could still be lovely for a flank to hold and supercool.
Still damage Output shouldnt overwhelm any enemy. Still a Hammer helbrute could surprise. If only shooty then you waste a lot of melee capabilities

Hi all,

Since the Balance Dataslate was released, I've been using the following list:


Abaddon the Despoiler

Master of Possession* (Nurgle)

Chosen (Nurgle)(x10)

Chaos Rhino (Nurgle)

Helbrute (Nurgle)

Chaos Terminators (Undivided)(x10)

Accursed Cultists (Nurgle)(x8)

Chaos Cultists (Nurgle)(x10)

Chaos Bikes (Nurgle)(x3)

Raptors (Slaanesh)(x5)

Chaos Predator Annihilator (Nurgle)

Forgefiend (Undivided)

Allies

Nurglings (x3)

*Liber Hereticus


Interestingly, the list I had been playing pre-slate was moving in a direction that environment post-slate is friendlier to.

Specifically, a small AC unit for objective grabbing without a Dark Commune. I dropped the Land Raider in favor of a Rhino and Predator, which fulfils the same purpose. But with the Rhino I have another objective grabber and action-doer. I lost the Seekers but added in some bikes, which is sad, but I feel the list has enough units to do actions and grab objectives and enough screening from the Cultists and Nurglings, that I can protect the Terminator brick with Abaddon.

I still feel the CSM Terminator brick fills a role that is much needed. Namely, being a mid-board deterrent and the overwatch from the unit is so good at clearing out small skirmishing units and scouts.

Its only weakness was Precision Chosen/Lords and Forgefiends and this was admittedly hard to counter, but in most games I found I was able to put part of the unit in a ruin and screen the first floor with Cultists, making a Turn 1 charge not viable to pull off. Now with the nerf to Chosen/Lords and Forgefiends I actually think this unit is a lot more viable. Space Wolves, Orks and World Eaters may still cause some issues, but the unit can be screened against those armies.

Warp Talons are replaced with Raptors with plasma guns. I think they're great: cheaper and can do work in shooting and assault.

Even though they are expensive I kept Chosen, because they are so useful. They have to be Nurgle now though, in order for me to be able to stage charges with the Rhino and not have it shot straight away. It would be better, though, if they were Undivided.

The list is much more flexible, I have more activations in both shooting and assault, meaning I can pop transports and then charge the contents. It also has more potential for actions and objective scoring, without losing damage potential across multiple activations.

In short, I actually think the list is more efficient than the pre-slate archetypes I had been using. Its more dynamic and fun, for sure. At the same time most of the other armies that were dominant have gotten substantially weaker.

Best,
Samii.

I think undivided chosen is more important than nurgle rhino as if they don’t sting upon delivery then it doesn’t matter if they get there. Or maybe even slannesh.

 xeen wrote:
I think undivided chosen is more important than nurgle rhino as if they don’t sting upon delivery then it doesn’t matter if they get there. Or maybe even slannesh.

I think people need to play CSM in a different way. Old Chosen would just fold up a flank: that was boring to play against.

CSM have a lot of cheap, tough, fast scoring units with excellent damage potential (AC, Bikes, Raptors, Cultists etc.). The Terminator brick and Chosen are there to shore up threats to the objective grabbers by threatening a counter attack, rather than, in my opinion, just rolling over the opponent. The Terminators are there to punish units that come out of the DZ and threaten a devastating counter-charge, using the Tzeentch resurrection trick. Often, a savvy opponent will not shoot the unit, because they know you can do this, so the Nurgle strat doesn't even have to be used on them. It can be used on the AC unit scoring the central objective, for example. Here the Terminator unit is actually there to support the scoring units and act as a deterrent.

Liber Hereticus Chosen can be used to do lightning fast counter-strikes, that are more about tagging up the enemy.

The Nurgle Chosen can be deployed forward and then knock units off an objective before staging a strike into the enemy DZ. I'll illustrate with an example. My Rhino with Chosen is deployed just behind the line. Swooping Hawks grab the mid-field objective. The Rhino uses Nurgle strat and so enemy shooting is mitigated. In my turn the Rhino pushes the Hawks off the objective. Next turn Chosen pop out and move up to the enemy DZ. Shooting from the unit drops a Night Spinner, they then charge a Wraithguard unit. Old Chosen would have rolled over the unit, but now I kill three and Precision out the Seer. In his turn he falls back and shoots and counter charges. The shooting does less damage then expected, as I use the -1 to hit strat and AoC and have cover and a 6+++. I lose one to Wraithcannon shooting and then I get counter charged by an Yncarne and Phoenix Lord. I choose to fight on death and am able to kill the Yncarne, though I lose about half the unit and the Phoenix Lord Precisions out the MoP. Next turn they fallback and shoot/charge and with support from a Forgefiend, finish off the Wraithguard, Phoenix Lord and Farseer. That's a massive trade up. Sure, it took longer than old Chosen, but it created a distraction that meant my scoring units were just being ignored.

Best,
Samii.

Samii wrote:

 xeen wrote:
I think undivided chosen is more important than nurgle rhino as if they don’t sting upon delivery then it doesn’t matter if they get there. Or maybe even slannesh.

I think people need to play CSM in a different way. Old Chosen would just fold up a flank: that was boring to play against.

CSM have a lot of cheap, tough, fast scoring units with excellent damage potential (AC, Bikes, Raptors, Cultists etc.). The Terminator brick and Chosen are there to shore up threats to the objective grabbers by threatening a counter attack, rather than, in my opinion, just rolling over the opponent. The Terminators are there to punish units that come out of the DZ and threaten a devastating counter-charge, using the Tzeentch resurrection trick. Often, a savvy opponent will not shoot the unit, because they know you can do this, so the Nurgle strat doesn't even have to be used on them. It can be used on the AC unit scoring the central objective, for example. Here the Terminator unit is actually there to support the scoring units and act as a deterrent.

Liber Hereticus Chosen can be used to do lightning fast counter-strikes, that are more about tagging up the enemy.

The Nurgle Chosen can be deployed forward and then knock units off an objective before staging a strike into the enemy DZ. I'll illustrate with an example. My Rhino with Chosen is deployed just behind the line. Swooping Hawks grab the mid-field objective. The Rhino uses Nurgle strat and so enemy shooting is mitigated. In my turn the Rhino pushes the Hawks off the objective. Next turn Chosen pop out and move up to the enemy DZ. Shooting from the unit drops a Night Spinner, they then charge a Wraithguard unit. Old Chosen would have rolled over the unit, but now I kill three and Precision out the Seer. In his turn he falls back and shoots and counter charges. The shooting does less damage then expected, as I use the -1 to hit strat and AoC and have cover and a 6+++. I lose one to Wraithcannon shooting and then I get counter charged by an Yncarne and Phoenix Lord. I choose to fight on death and am able to kill the Yncarne, though I lose about half the unit and the Phoenix Lord Precisions out the MoP. Next turn they fallback and shoot/charge and with support from a Forgefiend, finish off the Wraithguard, Phoenix Lord and Farseer. That's a massive trade up. Sure, it took longer than old Chosen, but it created a distraction that meant my scoring units were just being ignored.

Best,
Samii.

I don't think you can take the Liber Hereticus on a unit with the mark of Nurgle. It says "Undivided only". I like your list and strategy, I just think the Chosen as undivided would be more optimal.

I am thinking of using possessed instead of Chosen. I am also playing around with bringing Vindicators. With Nurgle they can still put out a lot of shots with their main gun, but I still wish they were like 15 points cheaper.

I love the possessed, they're one of my favorite models visually and they're beastly. However I play my buddies Blood Angels quite a bit, and I gotta tell ya, his 10x Jump Pack Death Company + Chaplain vs. our 10x Possessed + MoP is more effective and cheaper. It puts a sting on me wanting to bring them personally.

Kangarupe wrote:
I love the possessed, they're one of my favorite models visually and they're beastly. However I play my buddies Blood Angels quite a bit, and I gotta tell ya, his 10x Jump Pack Death Company + Chaplain vs. our 10x Possessed + MoP is more effective and cheaper. It puts a sting on me wanting to bring them personally.

This same comparison applies to most of our Loyalist counterparts in my experience, after several consecutive games of CSM vs SM.

The Armor of Contempt price difference is a microcosm of the usual Chaos tax problem.

 xeen wrote:

Samii wrote:

 xeen wrote:
I think undivided chosen is more important than nurgle rhino as if they don’t sting upon delivery then it doesn’t matter if they get there. Or maybe even slannesh.

I think people need to play CSM in a different way. Old Chosen would just fold up a flank: that was boring to play against.

CSM have a lot of cheap, tough, fast scoring units with excellent damage potential (AC, Bikes, Raptors, Cultists etc.). The Terminator brick and Chosen are there to shore up threats to the objective grabbers by threatening a counter attack, rather than, in my opinion, just rolling over the opponent. The Terminators are there to punish units that come out of the DZ and threaten a devastating counter-charge, using the Tzeentch resurrection trick. Often, a savvy opponent will not shoot the unit, because they know you can do this, so the Nurgle strat doesn't even have to be used on them. It can be used on the AC unit scoring the central objective, for example. Here the Terminator unit is actually there to support the scoring units and act as a deterrent.

Liber Hereticus Chosen can be used to do lightning fast counter-strikes, that are more about tagging up the enemy.

The Nurgle Chosen can be deployed forward and then knock units off an objective before staging a strike into the enemy DZ. I'll illustrate with an example. My Rhino with Chosen is deployed just behind the line. Swooping Hawks grab the mid-field objective. The Rhino uses Nurgle strat and so enemy shooting is mitigated. In my turn the Rhino pushes the Hawks off the objective. Next turn Chosen pop out and move up to the enemy DZ. Shooting from the unit drops a Night Spinner, they then charge a Wraithguard unit. Old Chosen would have rolled over the unit, but now I kill three and Precision out the Seer. In his turn he falls back and shoots and counter charges. The shooting does less damage then expected, as I use the -1 to hit strat and AoC and have cover and a 6+++. I lose one to Wraithcannon shooting and then I get counter charged by an Yncarne and Phoenix Lord. I choose to fight on death and am able to kill the Yncarne, though I lose about half the unit and the Phoenix Lord Precisions out the MoP. Next turn they fallback and shoot/charge and with support from a Forgefiend, finish off the Wraithguard, Phoenix Lord and Farseer. That's a massive trade up. Sure, it took longer than old Chosen, but it created a distraction that meant my scoring units were just being ignored.

Best,
Samii.

I don't think you can take the Liber Hereticus on a unit with the mark of Nurgle. It says "Undivided only". I like your list and strategy, I just think the Chosen as undivided would be more optimal.

I am thinking of using possessed instead of Chosen. I am also playing around with bringing Vindicators. With Nurgle they can still put out a lot of shots with their main gun, but I still wish they were like 15 points cheaper.

Missed that .

 Havic1137 wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:
I love the possessed, they're one of my favorite models visually and they're beastly. However I play my buddies Blood Angels quite a bit, and I gotta tell ya, his 10x Jump Pack Death Company + Chaplain vs. our 10x Possessed + MoP is more effective and cheaper. It puts a sting on me wanting to bring them personally.

This same comparison applies to most of our Loyalist counterparts in my experience, after several consecutive games of CSM vs SM.

The Armor of Contempt price difference is a microcosm of the usual Chaos tax problem.

I thought about it a lot over the last couple days of list building though. The point difference there is 15 points. It's quite possible that its a fair if not favorable trade. I forgot the quintessential fact that possessed are 3 wounds a piece, and at T6 too that is nothing to balk at. However DC do get to re-roll hits, but not being able to fall back sucks too...I don't know. Like I said...maybe even

Kangarupe wrote:

 Havic1137 wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:
I love the possessed, they're one of my favorite models visually and they're beastly. However I play my buddies Blood Angels quite a bit, and I gotta tell ya, his 10x Jump Pack Death Company + Chaplain vs. our 10x Possessed + MoP is more effective and cheaper. It puts a sting on me wanting to bring them personally.

This same comparison applies to most of our Loyalist counterparts in my experience, after several consecutive games of CSM vs SM.

The Armor of Contempt price difference is a microcosm of the usual Chaos tax problem.

I thought about it a lot over the last couple days of list building though. The point difference there is 15 points. It's quite possible that its a fair if not favorable trade. I forgot the quintessential fact that possessed are 3 wounds a piece, and at T6 too that is nothing to balk at. However DC do get to re-roll hits, but not being able to fall back sucks too...I don't know. Like I said...maybe even

Perhaps my dice luck are awful or perhaps I am just bad at the game (both possibilities I will concede), but I have rarely found the extra wound or toughness to truly matter against Loyalist marines by the quality of their weapon options and their special abilities/strategems compared to ours. My terminator blocks or Chosen may be up to their eyeballs in defensive buffs and they get wiped out within a single turn - maybe lasting until the next enemy shooting phase if I am lucky. By comparison, I barely do a number on Bladeguard vets, who are just better than our Chosen. Chosen currently sit at 130 points for an MSU squad. Bladeguard veterans are 90 points. Bladeguards are also just better in a straight up fight with their special rule compared to the bit of extra mobility Chosen get. I have no idea why this is the case. Is someone gonna tell me its because Chosen have better shooting?

Chaos Marines more or less have to work harder to get what Loyalist Marines are handed. This is the price of playing the unfavored children.

Hi all,

I have played quite a few games now with the new list. Its the same as the one I posed a while back, except I replaced the Liber Hereticus with another Nurgling unit.

I think the key to new CSM is to find a balance of scoring and anchor/damage units, with a small overlap between the two. The scoring elements should be MSU and the anchors should be more robust, in my opinion. But both complement and work together. There's overlap because CSM scoring units can also do damage (especially with a Helbrute and/or Abaddon); only the Nurglings exist purely for actions (Teleport Homers, Investigate Signal), or screening.

I think I've hit on the right combination of units. Its best to illustrate with an overview of the units themselves.


Abaddon the Despoiler (Anchor) -

First, he's expensive, but let's calculate his relative worth. At base, Abaddon has the profile of three Terminators (which is about 120 points). Now, he hits in melee, with a good bit more force than the shooting of an Undivided Forgefiend (about 200 points and infamous for its lethality; used here for reference). If Abaddon is attached to Terminators he can get around the battlefield. Using the Tzeentch resurrection trick, advance and charge gives you decent chance to get into the enemy DZ from turn 2, if the opponent isn't watching what s/he's doing. In fact, most opponents will not want to shoot this unit, knowing this could happen. So, the point being, that melee force can certainly be leveraged.

He has some shooting, probably worth three Terminators.

He generates command points.

He gives very useful aura buffs.

He gives all the Marks to his Terminator unit, which grants them niche abilities like the one noted above; it also makes them unshootable etc. and LD 5+ and 30% more OC.

I would say Abaddon's points were worth it if he did only a few of the above: as it is, he does a lot of heavy lifting.


Master of Possession (Nurgle)(Anchor/Scoring) -

Taken with Chosen the MoP turns that unit into a completely different entity, one which can reliably score BEL and has WE-esque levels of mobility. While its damage output was knocked, I think the unit is more useful as a distraction/assassin type unit that can potentially score, once its done its job. The 6+++ is just a bonus.


Chosen (Nurgle)(x10)(Anchor/Scoring) -

See above. Also, being able to advance/fall back and do actions, means that Chosen can grab you points when the unit becomes small, or has lost the MoP.


Chaos Rhino (Nurgle)(Scoring) -

The Rhino enables the speedy Chosen combo, but it can also do actions itself, is tough and cheap. Also, paired with the Helbrute, the MoP staff and a plasma pistol/combi-weapon shot from the hatch can be surprisingly dangerous and the former is quite good at sniping characters; in addition to its own weapons being good for clearing chaff.


Helbrute (Nurgle)(Anchor) -

Exists as a force multiplier, has decent shooting and decent melee. I find that the Helbrute makes the scoring units (Bikes, Cultists, Raptors) a lot more dangerous than they would ordinarily be and this lets you potentially create a 'second' front around the Helbrute with these, when Abaddon is elsewhere. It also increases the damage of the Predator and potentially the Chosen, if it can keep up with them.


Chaos Terminators (Undivided)(x10)(Anchor/Scoring) -

See above (Abaddon). The Terminators are a unique unit. They suffer from the same weaknesses as a lot of elite infantry (mobility/vulnerability to certain weapon systems), but their niche abilities enable them to overcome these weaknesses in dramatic ways. In particular, I like being able to overwatch with the unit on turn 1, with the benefit of rerolls, the Undivided pact and potential to command point regen with Abaddon. The overwatch is good enough to clear chaff off of objectives, denying scoring etc. In subsequent turns, the Forgefiend can reroll overwatch with Abaddon and intercept a lot of the unit's key threats, acting as a bulwark to shore it against.

Its melee is excellent and its shooting is about equal to a Forgefiend.

Finally, because you have all the Marks, remember that the unit can fall back/advance and still do an action, when everything else has died.


Accursed Cultists (Nurgle)(x8)(Scoring) -

They are tough, with Abaddon potentially giving a 4++. I still think a smaller unit is better. I like to trail the unit onto the center objective turn 1 and pop the Nurgle strat after a few have died. This way, enemy shooting gets split. You get taken off the objective sure, but next turn you regen, getting a movement bonus (about 3") and are back there and slightly further up than you were before. The unit has decent melee.


Chaos Cultists (Nurgle)(x10)(Scoring) -

They are cheap and give you sticky objectives. The shooting is very good with Abaddon and Helbrute nearby. They are excellent value in my opinion.


Chaos Bikes (Nurgle)(x3)(Scoring) -

The most underrated CSM unit. While compared to Outriders, they are slightly softer (about 25%), but have vastly better shooting when given full plasma. In range of the a Helbrute they become a threat to armour. With their reserve trick, they are the only really reliable way to score Engage on turn 1 and BEL, Teleport Homers and Investigate in later turns, but most importantly, they can keep scoring them. If I were using Nurglings to do this, after Deep Striking they are stranded, but bikes can appear anywhere more or less, when needed to do those key actions. They can even screen out the backfield and then pop up later. Also, importantly they have an Icon.


Raptors (Slaanesh)(x5)(Scoring) -

As Slaanesh they can advance and do actions/charge giving them an excellent range of effect, plus potential for BEL early game. With full plasma they shoot well (like the Bikes) and have at least as good melee as Jump Intercessors, certainly so in range of the Helbrute. They can also turn off enemy OC, which is very, very useful now that CSM are struggling a bit in that department (with AC losing OC2).


Chaos Predator Annihilator (Nurgle)(Anchor) -

The Predator is a cheap, decent shooting platform, especially in range of Abaddon and a Helbrute.


Forgefiend (Undivided)(Anchor) -

Excellent shooting unit, still will get its points back (and more) against elite infantry. Potential OW (paired with Abaddon) allows it to protect the Terminators and for them to be used in a more aggressive way.


Nurglings (x3)(Scoring) -

Are cheap, can Infiltrate and Deep Strike. 40 pts to guarantee BEL, Homers, Investigate etc., still worth it. These are the only units that exist entirely for actions, but I also like to use them to screen the Terminators, or block units in the DZ so that I can, conversely move the Terminators a bit further forward.


Nurglings (x3)(Scoring) -

Ditto.

Thanks,
Samii.

So I like that list, however I have a few thoughts.....

I still disagree with you that Nurgle on the Chosen is not a complete waste. The only reason to do that is to put them in a Nurgle Rhino, which is Nurgle to use the strat. It is really only relevant turn one, as by turn two your chosen should be in enemy lines, so the strat has no purpose anymore. Also you state that you can even use the strat on the accursed cultists turn one to cover them, which means you are not using it on the Rhino, and if you don't use it at all on the chosen or their Rhino you get 0 value from Nurgle. Also unless you are playing on boards with 0 LOS blocking terrain, I usually am able to hide on Rhino. And if you make the Chosen undivided you can bring the Liber which is massive. I think the niche strategy of being able to use the Nurgle strat doesn't outweigh being undivided or even Slannessh or Khorne. (I have used Khorne and it can be effective punching up with the lethal hits).

On the opposite end, I would make the Raptors Nurgle. They have a long enough move not to really need advance and charge, or you will probably deep strike them anyway. The added value of extra plasma hits on 5+ is certainly more meaningful against more targets than the extra hits on the chain sword attacks. And this unit late game is likely to be on an objective away from the main fight, so using the Nurgle Strat on them end game could be good.

Finally, the predator. I personally don't like them. However, I don't know what I would use instead. I like vindicators, but they are 60 points more for some reason. 4 laser cannon havocs with Nurgle could be good, and is only 5 points more. Less survivable than the predator, but able to move though ruins to get angles, and one extra LC shot. (the predator turret should be shatter soul laser cannons like the landraider, so it gets two shots from the turret. That would make is much more considerable.) If you are not dead set on AT, for a replacement, warptalons could be good, to do the bullying you were doing with the raptors, and then let the raptors focus on dropping in and plasma stuff to death and harass the backfield. A 5 man possessed squad is only 10 points more, could also be good.

Just some thoughts for your consideration. Look forward to hearing about any games in which you use the list.

 xeen wrote:
So I like that list, however I have a few thoughts.....

I still disagree with you that Nurgle on the Chosen is not a complete waste. The only reason to do that is to put them in a Nurgle Rhino, which is Nurgle to use the strat. It is really only relevant turn one, as by turn two your chosen should be in enemy lines, so the strat has no purpose anymore. Also you state that you can even use the strat on the accursed cultists turn one to cover them, which means you are not using it on the Rhino, and if you don't use it at all on the chosen or their Rhino you get 0 value from Nurgle. Also unless you are playing on boards with 0 LOS blocking terrain, I usually am able to hide on Rhino. And if you make the Chosen undivided you can bring the Liber which is massive. I think the niche strategy of being able to use the Nurgle strat doesn't outweigh being undivided or even Slannessh or Khorne. (I have used Khorne and it can be effective punching up with the lethal hits).

On the opposite end, I would make the Raptors Nurgle. They have a long enough move not to really need advance and charge, or you will probably deep strike them anyway. The added value of extra plasma hits on 5+ is certainly more meaningful against more targets than the extra hits on the chain sword attacks. And this unit late game is likely to be on an objective away from the main fight, so using the Nurgle Strat on them end game could be good.

Finally, the predator. I personally don't like them. However, I don't know what I would use instead. I like vindicators, but they are 60 points more for some reason. 4 laser cannon havocs with Nurgle could be good, and is only 5 points more. Less survivable than the predator, but able to move though ruins to get angles, and one extra LC shot. (the predator turret should be shatter soul laser cannons like the landraider, so it gets two shots from the turret. That would make is much more considerable.) If you are not dead set on AT, for a replacement, warptalons could be good, to do the bullying you were doing with the raptors, and then let the raptors focus on dropping in and plasma stuff to death and harass the backfield. A 5 man possessed squad is only 10 points more, could also be good.

Just some thoughts for your consideration. Look forward to hearing about any games in which you use the list.

The Nurgle Rhino is about staging. It just gives me the option to put it further up the board. I like the enemy to make decisions about what to shoot. If I go first, the Rhino zips behind a wall in the midfield and then most likely the AC get it (the Nurgle strat), or the Terminators etc.

Having a lot of Nurgle units means the opponent has to think harder and can make more mistakes. At the same time, not everything should be (Nurgle).

I am open to the Undivided Chosen, but it feels like I lose a bit of strategic value, not having the staging option.

Nurgle Raptors, I also thought about

I like Slaanesh, because it gives me a better shot at scoring Behind Enemy Lines or Engage, if I get lucky a charge off on Turn 1. I also like having Khorne and Slaanesh units with a Helbrute, because they gain a lot more from it in melee (exploding and auto wounds on 5+).

Yes, they might be better overall at shooting if they were Nurgle, but I have that base covered.

Remember they can do an action too, with the advance if they are Slaanesh. The difference between being able to do an action at 12" and 15.5/16" might not seem much but it can make a big difference in the game.

You might say, why not just take Slaanesh Warp Talons. Well, they are more expensive and the Slaanesh Raptors, can still do more damage across phases, even if they don't shoot as well, as if they were Nurgle.

Finally, the Predator. Yes, I lose one Lascannon, but with the turret being twin-linked, S14 and rr damage 1, I gain a marginal anti-tank benefit over the LR. I also gain an extra set of Havoc Launchers and Combi-bolters, than what I had before.

Best,
Samii.

Samii wrote:
Hi all,

Chaos Terminators (Undivided)(x10)(Anchor/Scoring) -

See above (Abaddon). The Terminators are a unique unit. They suffer from the same weaknesses as a lot of elite infantry (mobility/vulnerability to certain weapon systems), but their niche abilities enable them to overcome these weaknesses in dramatic ways. In particular, I like being able to overwatch with the unit on turn 1, with the benefit of rerolls, the Undivided pact and potential to command point regen with Abaddon. The overwatch is good enough to clear chaff off of objectives, denying scoring etc. In subsequent turns, the Forgefiend can reroll overwatch with Abaddon and intercept a lot of the unit's key threats, acting as a bulwark to shore it against.

I don't think I explained the above fully, it just sits in the paragraph, so I'll give it a better shot.

CSM Terminators with Abaddon can dark pact if the opponent goes first and overwatch, because Undivided doesn't have the caveat that it needs to happen in the assault or shooting phases. This means you can overwatch, get a command point back from Abaddon and then use it later in the opponent's or your turn, on the Nurgle strat, for example.

This means you get to overwatch for free essentially. It also helps that the Terminators reroll hits when they dark pact, if you go second.

It might seem a bit unwieldy of an explanation, but I have found myself doing this quite a bit and its useful.

Best,
Samii.

Hey. I’m new to 40k and csm. Only played three games so far.
Tomorrow I will play against death guard. I made a list. Like to hear your thoughts about it.
Put in the DP because I like the model. But it’s ok to take something else (obliterators, mop, moe,…).

2000 (1995 Points)

Chaos Space Marines
Slaves to Darkness
Strike Force (2000 Points)

CHARACTERS

Abaddon the Despoiler (310 Points)
• Warlord
• 1x Drach’nyen
1x Talon of Horus

Chaos Lord (95 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided
• 1x Bolt Pistol
1x Daemon hammer

Heretic Astartes Daemon Prince with Wings (210 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
• 1x Hellforged weapons
1x Infernal cannon
• Enhancements: Intoxicating Elixir

BATTLELINE

Cultist Mob (55 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Autopistol
1x Brutal assault weapon
• 9x Chaos Cultist
• 9x Autopistol
9x Brutal assault weapon

DEDICATED TRANSPORTS

Chaos Rhino (75 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided
• 1x Armoured tracks
1x Combi-bolter

OTHER DATASHEETS

Chaos Predator Destructor (130 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
• 1x Armoured tracks
1x Combi-weapon
1x Havoc launcher
2x Heavy bolter
1x Predator autocannon

Chaos Predator Destructor (130 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
• 1x Armoured tracks
1x Combi-weapon
1x Havoc launcher
2x Heavy bolter
1x Predator autocannon

Chaos Terminator Squad (390 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
• 1x Terminator Champion
• 1x Accursed weapon
1x Combi-weapon
• 9x Chaos Terminator
• 3x Accursed weapon
7x Combi-weapon
6x Power fist
2x Reaper autocannon

Chosen (260 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided
• 1x Chosen Champion
• 1x Accursed weapon
1x Bolt pistol
1x Boltgun
• 9x Chosen
• 5x Accursed weapon
9x Bolt pistol
3x Boltgun
1x Chaos Icon
4x Combi-weapon
2x Paired accursed weapons
2x Power fist

Forgefiend (200 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided
• 1x Armoured limbs
1x Ectoplasma cannon
2x Ectoplasma cannon

Possessed (140 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
• 1x Possessed Champion
• 1x Hideous mutations
• 4x Possessed
• 1x Chaos Icon
4x Hideous mutations

Exported with App Version: v1.10.1 (30), Data Version: v336

I like the list, the only thing I would be a bit mmmm about is the predators as I think they are a bit over costed for what they do. I like oblits better if you have them to replace one, and they you would have 80 points, (95 if you drop the elixir) to bring something else. However, I would be interested to hear how they work out.

I like the DP, but you have to remember he is not a centerpiece damage dealer. He needs to bully lesser infantry units (don't put him against anything tough, like tanks or Morty) and he is really good at disrupting the backfield. I like to use his speed to get an early charge in on something, then if he is still engaged, use the strat to "fall back" toward the enemy backfield and still charge. It puts him in the enemy DP as early as turn 2, where he can pick on weaker backfield units and disrupt primary scoring. His main problem is that he is about 15 points to much for bringing this tactic. They really need to give him S10, or make him cheaper and he would be much improved. Hope this helps, good luck can't wait to hear how it goes.

Thanks for your reply. I don’t have predators, I take the space marine models from my opponent to try them 😂 But I have 4 obliterators. I like them. But I read that heavy bolter with sustained and lethal on 5+ is great (tzeentch).

I have no idea how to play the DP correct. So o have to read your game plan for the DP again and again


Which unit would be good in reserve or deep strike?