Spinning off from the Rumour Engine Thread. No. Really.
I declare The Great Dakka Pie Fight Of 2023 officially started!
Opening shots?
Whether pie or casserole, Cottage and Shepher’s pie are both vile concoctions. You want Mince and Tatties, just eat mince and tatties like a big boy. And trust me, at 6’2” eating Mince and Tatties clearly does make you a Big Boy.
Besides, everyone knows a Steak and Kidney pie in shortcrust is the One True King Of Pies. Savoury, unctuous and just melt in the mouth delicious.
I still want to note that Mad Doc is Mad and I think should be invalidated from the fight owing to him considering Cottage Pie/Shepherds Pie terrible - whilst trying to pretend that he's from England!
Also I'd hasten to point out that shepherds pie can have a crispy top. You just layer it meat-potato-cheese and then leave the cheese in just enough to brown a touch (carefully so it doesn't burn)
It is well worth a visit if you're in the area. Pies are great, and the decor is nerdvana. They even have those little mini-SNES consoles available to play in the seating booths.
Overread wrote: I still want to note that Mad Doc is Mad and I think should be invalidated from the fight owing to him considering Cottage Pie/Shepherds Pie terrible - whilst trying to pretend that he's from England!
Also I'd hasten to point out that shepherds pie can have a crispy top. You just layer it meat-potato-cheese and then leave the cheese in just enough to brown a touch (carefully so it doesn't burn)
Live. I live in England. I was born in Scotland.
Which means you may have expected Scotch Pie to be my favourite, with its amazing hot water pastry crust. And it is up there in my esteem, but is not my favourite.
the only good pie is the flat pie that italians produce en masse. No the americanised version also don't count and should be considered a violation of the geneva suggestions.
Overread wrote: Also I'd hasten to point out that shepherds pie can have a crispy top. You just layer it meat-potato-cheese and then leave the cheese in just enough to brown a touch (carefully so it doesn't burn)
I agree that some sort of pastry is required for pie. Top and/or base. Preferably both, but if you just have one, should be the base IMHO
Now, there are plenty of delicious things that don’t fit this definition. I prefer an apple crisp to an apple pie. And I’ll grant that shepherds/cottage pies do not meet this technical criteria.
That said, shepherd pies are awesome
And chicken pot pies, which actually do fit our definition.
My fav non-savory pie is probably strawberry rhubarb. I do prefer a bit of tart to cut the otherwise sweet treat. I use granny smith apples for my pies for the same reason.
I grew up with cottage pie as the default, shepherds pie being the lamb version. We'd frequently call lamb ones cottage too, it was just the generic name.
I'm a big fan of a good cottage pie. Needs plenty of cheese They also freeze well for later.
Its also not our fault that you decided to colonise everything for spices and then decided that you didn't like a single one either.
A lot of cottage pies have curry powder in them Me grandmother's recipe always included a bit of curry powder.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Controversial opinion: fruit crumbles are far superior to fruit pies. Give me a blackberry and apple crumble over the equivalent pie any day. Obviously foraged blackberries are best.
Nevelon wrote: I agree that some sort of pastry is required for pie. Top and/or base. Preferably both, but if you just have one, should be the base IMHO
In my book, a base of pastry with no top is a tart, not a pie. Incidentally I also much prefer sweet tarts to sweet pies. Golden syrup tart is a proper treat.
Nevelon wrote: I agree that some sort of pastry is required for pie. Top and/or base. Preferably both, but if you just have one, should be the base IMHO
In my book, a base of pastry with no top is a tart, not a pie. Incidentally I also much prefer sweet tarts to sweet pies. Golden syrup tart is a proper treat.
That’s fair. There is a lot of overlap of what’s what. We need one of those 3x3 matrices about form and structure for what a pie is.
There are enough open topped pies I can’t just write them off. Pumpkin pies, meringues, custards etc.
Controversial opinion: fruit crumbles are far superior to fruit pies. Give me a blackberry and apple crumble over the equivalent pie any day. Obviously foraged blackberries are best.
Both are good, but a good crumble needs a nice thick crumble layer on top. Nothing worse than cutting into one and the top shatters like thin ice!
They have a bunch of other names. Pasty? Dough stuffed with things and baked, small enough to hold in your hand and have for lunch. Like a hand sized calzone. Sweet or savory.
No, those are Pasties. But I think they may count as pies. Whilst not baked in a dish or tin, there are other undisputed Pies (the Scotch Pie) which are also cooked without a dish or tin.
No, those are Pasties. But I think they may count as pies. Whilst not baked in a dish or tin, there are other undisputed Pies (the Scotch Pie) which are also cooked without a dish or tin.
Begs the question: is a pie tin a requirement for pie-ness? Is anything cooked in one considered a pie?
(I have strong feeling about similar arguments surrounding martini glasses, but that’s for another thread)
Normal pizza - pie?
Chicago deep dish - change things?
Calzone - crust on both sides?
Hand pies?
Quiche?
Normal pizza - it's not pastry, it's not got a lid, it's not a pie. It's closer to fancy cheese on toast than it is pie.
Chicago deep dish - the only ones I've ever experienced are the cheap frozen Chicago Town brand deep dish mini things. They seem to have more of a pastry case than pizza dough, but no lid. They're a tart at best.
Calzone - not pastry, not a pie. I'd call it a big pasty but they're pastry-based too.
Speaking of pasties? Apparently the word derives from the medieval French word for a pie. Maybe they're a pie after all?
A quiche is a specific sub-division of tart. No lid.
The UK Meat Pie and Sausage Roll Regulations 1967 define "meat pie" as follows:
"meat pie" means any product containing meat which is wholly or partly encased in pastry and is intended for sale for human consumption and includes pastry and meat pudding but does not include sausage roll or vol-au-vent
As far as I can tell these regulations are still in force. There is also a definition for "Scottish Pie" and the Regulations make clear that, where appropriate, the words "meat and vegetable pie" may be substituted for "Cornish pasty" or "Forfar bridie".
Overread wrote: Lets not get into backed goods because that gets bonkers as soon as the USA are involved.
Such as calling all biscuits cookies, scones are something else and I don't know what the heck they call an actual cookie.
The biscuit thing is baffling to me, because it is quite a recent change.
For example, the manufacturer of oreos is called NaBisCo... which is short for National Biscuit Company. So during the 20th century biscuit got supplanted by cookie somehow.
Whats dakkas opinion on Stargazey pie? I'm not convinced its a real item of food that anyone in England eats. I think its something you came up with to trick tourists into embarassing themselves.
Overread wrote: I still want to note that Mad Doc is Mad and I think should be invalidated from the fight owing to him considering Cottage Pie/Shepherds Pie terrible - whilst trying to pretend that he's from England!
Also I'd hasten to point out that shepherds pie can have a crispy top. You just layer it meat-potato-cheese and then leave the cheese in just enough to brown a touch (carefully so it doesn't burn)
Live. I live in England. I was born in Scotland.
Which means you may have expected Scotch Pie to be my favourite, with its amazing hot water pastry crust. And it is up there in my esteem, but is not my favourite.
Overread wrote: Also I'd hasten to point out that shepherds pie can have a crispy top. You just layer it meat-potato-cheese and then leave the cheese in just enough to brown a touch (carefully so it doesn't burn)
Some would say that's the best part!
It is in New York/New Jersey/the broader northeastern US. If you want a whole pizza, you order a whole pie. Go down south or to the west coast and say that and they'll have no idea what you're asking for. You're not referring to a pizza as being a pie in the technical sense by saying that, you're using the term pie to describe the size/shape of the pizza, vs a slice which is used for a triangular slice of approximately 1/8th of the pies whole.
Now, tomato pie (specifically of the Trenton variety), which is a pizza but with a slightly different sauce and the order of sauce & cheese reversed (pizza = sauce then cheese, tomato pie = cheese then sauce), is a real debate - technically speaking, its not a "pastry" crust/shell/top, but its still a form of bread, etc. so does it count? According to some of you it might technically be a tart, rather than a pie.
Chicago Deep Dish though... thats a casserole, regardless of the presence of bread.
Not Online!!! wrote: Listen, it's not the issue of the rest of the world that you lot can't cook. Or even get your culinary vocabulary straight.
Its also not our fault that you decided to colonise everything for spices and then decided that you didn't like a single one either.
Obviously i am joking you do some mean steaks and indeed beef based pies are awesone.
Thats not fair, I've heard that the English are particularly fond of a good Vindaloo.
chaos0xomega wrote: Whats dakkas opinion on Stargazey pie? I'm not convinced its a real item of food that anyone in England eats. I think its something you came up with to trick tourists into embarassing themselves.
Well. It's a sample size of one... but I've never heard of it.
chaos0xomega wrote: Whats dakkas opinion on Stargazey pie? I'm not convinced its a real item of food that anyone in England eats. I think its something you came up with to trick tourists into embarassing themselves.
Well. It's a sample size of one... but I've never heard of it.
In all honesty, it sounds American
I've also never heard of it, but looking on google it's some Cornish thing so that's the complete opposite end of the country to me. I don't think it really counts because yon Southerners can't do pies properly I'm afraid.
chaos0xomega wrote: Whats dakkas opinion on Stargazey pie? I'm not convinced its a real item of food that anyone in England eats. I think its something you came up with to trick tourists into embarassing themselves.
Well. It's a sample size of one... but I've never heard of it.
In all honesty, it sounds American
I've also never heard of it, but looking on google it's some Cornish thing so that's the complete opposite end of the country to me. I don't think it really counts because yon Southerners can't do pies properly I'm afraid.
Heh. Different strokes for different countries. Southern cooking in the USA is some real good stuff.
Of course, there is plenty of regional bias, but that’s normal anywhere.
I honestly would not know where to stick a pin in the map if someone asked me where the best pies in the US were…
Scotch Eggs aren’t Scottish. Though they are quite tasty, I prefer them with Black Pudding instead of the Sosig Meat.
Stargazey Pie is a genuine, if rare, dish.
It’s origins are said to be in a small Cornish fishing village which due to a sustained period of awful weather, was facing starvation as none of the boats would brace the tempestuous seas. All but on, who came home safe with a haul of Pilchards, staving off the famine.
I like a good cherry pie, which has crust on the top and bottom and therefore should count as a pie by all definitions. I also like pecan pie, but that's a tart, according to some of you.
chaos0xomega wrote: Whats dakkas opinion on Stargazey pie? I'm not convinced its a real item of food that anyone in England eats. I think its something you came up with to trick tourists into embarassing themselves.
Well. It's a sample size of one... but I've never heard of it.
In all honesty, it sounds American
I've also never heard of it, but looking on google it's some Cornish thing so that's the complete opposite end of the country to me. I don't think it really counts because yon Southerners can't do pies properly I'm afraid.
My understanding was that Pasty's (Pasties?) originated in Cornwall, so... is a pasty not a pie?
Well, since I had a hand in starting this, I figured I should come back and first, maintain my argument that pies need a pastry crust, and ideally, all encasing, not just the top. To which I'm pleased to see there is precedent.
However, I accept that is common to call shepherd / cottage pie, pie, despite it being a casserole. In the same way various fruits get called vegetables.
However, that does lead me onto:...
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Scotch Eggs aren’t Scottish. Though they are quite tasty, I prefer them with Black Pudding instead of the Sosig Meat.
Pudding. There are way too many things called pudding here.
So, per Evelyn Waugh, do you still eat porridge with your fingers?
Pasties are a prized specialty in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, a staple of the copper and iron miners and typically made in small batches.
"Pot pies" (chicken, beef, sometimes turkey) are part of the American industrialized frozen food complex.
I get a sense that a lot of British cuisine is based on the risk of starving to death on an overcast rock, especially when the U-boats returned from their spawning grounds. Here in the States (where we grow so much grain that we run our cars on it), pies are a dessert. There's an apple/blueberry/cherry variant popular in these parts that is superbly tasty.
Spinning off from the Rumour Engine Thread. No. Really.
I declare The Great Dakka Pie Fight Of 2023 officially started!
Opening shots?
Whether pie or casserole, Cottage and Shepher’s pie are both vile concoctions. You want Mince and Tatties, just eat mince and tatties like a big boy. And trust me, at 6’2” eating Mince and Tatties clearly does make you a Big Boy.
Besides, everyone knows a Steak and Kidney pie in shortcrust is the One True King Of Pies. Savoury, unctuous and just melt in the mouth delicious.
I do believe you are familiar with the concept of "stovies" aye?
Spinning off from the Rumour Engine Thread. No. Really.
I declare The Great Dakka Pie Fight Of 2023 officially started!
Opening shots?
Whether pie or casserole, Cottage and Shepher’s pie are both vile concoctions. You want Mince and Tatties, just eat mince and tatties like a big boy. And trust me, at 6’2” eating Mince and Tatties clearly does make you a Big Boy.
Besides, everyone knows a Steak and Kidney pie in shortcrust is the One True King Of Pies. Savoury, unctuous and just melt in the mouth delicious.
I do believe you are familiar with the concept of "stovies" aye?
Of course. And everyone’s Mum makes the best Stovies, despite everyone’s Mum making their own unique version
Also I'd hasten to point out that shepherds pie can have a crispy top. You just layer it meat-potato-cheese and then leave the cheese in just enough to brown a touch (carefully so it doesn't burn)
Another way to get a crispy topping is to leave the cheese out altogether, make a buttery mash and pipe it onto the meat. The butter crisps up the potato beautifully, whilst keeping the inside nice and soft. Now I am going to have to make a cottage pie...
Pastry all around is nice, but then you have the confusion of pasties. By that measure, a pasty is a pie? Is a sausage roll a pie, as it's meat surrounded by pastry? Clearly not. Therefore the idea of a pie being meat and pastry doesn't hold, and meat and potato pies should be back in the running.
Well, hopefully this can put the matter to a close.
3. All Pies in all Classes of the British Pie Awards must comply with being ‘a filling wholly encased in pastry and baked’. Entries which do not comply e.g. lattice topped, fruit topped, potato topped, samosas or any fried products etc will not be submitted for judging. For clarity, a single hole in the lid of the pie must be no more than 25mm diameter (for steam exit or jellying etc).
Well those might the the rules for competitive British pies, but there are other pies being eaten across the world! And more casual pies!
Most of that definition I can get behind, but no lattice tops? I get that you can’t just slap a strip of dough on a tart and call it a pie, but a good latice is a work of art.
Nevelon wrote: Well those might the the rules for competitive British pies, but there are other pies being eaten across the world! And more casual pies!
Most of that definition I can get behind, but no lattice tops? I get that you can’t just slap a strip of dough on a tart and call it a pie, but a good latice is a work of art.
If the Great British bakeoff has taught me anything about Great Britain, it's that they are serious about baked goods. We shouldn't question it.
Nevelon wrote: Well those might the the rules for competitive British pies, but there are other pies being eaten across the world! And more casual pies!
Most of that definition I can get behind, but no lattice tops? I get that you can’t just slap a strip of dough on a tart and call it a pie, but a good latice is a work of art.
If the Great British bakeoff has taught me anything about Great Britain, it's that they are serious about baked goods. We shouldn't question it.
That’s fair. And I do love that show.
Pretty much everyone has food based quirks. They want to draw the battle-lines over pies, that’s fine. We do similar things over here with BBQ, chilli, pizza, and plenty of other things.
But come late November, you tell someone here that a pumpkin pie is not a pie, you are going to be beaten to death with a turkey leg. (Although apple is the superior thanksgiving pie IMHO)
I acknowledge that as a valid choice and a contender for the throne, but respectfully disagree.
I spent too many formative years too far north to really enjoy pecan pies. Never had one until I moved to Louisville. By then my pie-oritys were pretty much set.
I acknowledge that as a valid choice and a contender for the throne, but respectfully disagree.
I spent too many formative years too far north to really enjoy pecan pies. Never had one until I moved to Louisville. By then my pie-oritys were pretty much set.
I like pecan pie, but it's just so rich usually that I can only eat a small slice at a time. Apple pie is also a solid choice and like you said earlier it's probably best when made with Granny Smith apples. If we're talking about holiday pies here, let me just say that I think pumpkin pie is one of the most overrated desserts ever. I don't hate it, I suppose, but it is pretty low on my preferences list.
chaos0xomega wrote: If the Great British bakeoff has taught me anything about Great Britain, it's that they are serious about baked goods. We shouldn't question it.
They're serious about a lot of foodstuffs. Remember that thing with the wasted tea?
I acknowledge that as a valid choice and a contender for the throne, but respectfully disagree.
I spent too many formative years too far north to really enjoy pecan pies. Never had one until I moved to Louisville. By then my pie-oritys were pretty much set.
Bro, I'm from Jersey. No such thing as being too far north to appreciate pecan pie.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I think I would be open to accepting sweet pies, provided they’re of North American fame/origin.
This is because just as language drifts, so do food definitions. And they do look very tasty.
Never occurred to me that new world pies are sweet and old world pies are savory.
chaos0xomega wrote: If the Great British bakeoff has taught me anything about Great Britain, it's that they are serious about baked goods. We shouldn't question it.
They're serious about a lot of foodstuffs. Remember that thing with the wasted tea?
In the UK, it’s mainly savoury pies. Steak, Steak and Kidney, Pork, Chicken and Mushroom, Venison, Game etc etc.
In the US? It’s mainly sweet.
I’m no food historian, but it could be do with cultural drift. The US seems to be known more for Prime Cuts, thanks to their strong farming industry providing plenty of it.
The UK? Pies are typically for cheaper cuts and offal. Stuff which you need to low and slow to get the most out of it, and when done right is amazing and tastier than any Prime Cut, because that was more readily available.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact, I was watching a YouTuber (I think it was Townsends, might’ve been Max Millar. Both of which are fantastic channels!), and Pumpkin Pie became popular because Pumpkins can be safely stored super easily, so in the early days, they were a reliable winter veg, and Pumpkin Pie was an easy way to prepare them. Will see if I can find it.
The 14th century recipe collection the Forme of Cury gives a recipe including good apples, good spices, figs, raisins and pears in a cofyn, a casing of pastry. Saffron colours the filling.[13]
Don’t worry. We had 300 years or so to remove the good stuff
Automatically Appended Next Post: Of course, eating the casing wasn’t always done. I don’t know when it began, but I do know in medieval times the crust or coffin was just for the cooking and serving, forming a dish, without being part of the meal.
I like Dave Barry's version of British history: to ward off invaders like the Vikings, they resorted to relentlessly bland food, a tradition they maintain to this day, despite numerous armed French attempts to invade with sauces.
The American diet is preponderantly German. Indeed, much of American DNA is German as well, but due to a couple of unpleasant episodes, this was downplayed and people dropped the language, the ethnic newspapers vanished, etc.
But just about everything Americans think of as "theirs" is German: hamburgers, hot dogs, beer, fried potatoes, potato salad, fried chicken - we all know where it came from. When I was in the Rhineland, I asked for their local specialty and I got breaded pork jobs with mushroom sauce, aka Jagerschnitzel. I laugh every 4th of July when we fly the flag and eat Brats and drink Pilsner. Maybe munch on some pretzels while I'm at it.
So our approach to pies and baking is also very similar to the Germans'.
I don't eat meat, but when I did I was very keen on Chicken & Mushroom pie, Steak & Kidney pie, Beef & Ale pie, Cornish pasty, Game pie, Pork pie.
Now I mainly eat Cheese & Onion, Butter Pies, and Vegetable pies, but not much taste for pies here in Ireland sadly. Unlike my native North England, where you'll find a Greggs on every street corner.
I don't eat meat, but when I did I was very keen on Chicken & Mushroom pie, Steak & Kidney pie, Beef & Ale pie, Cornishe pasty, Game pie, Pork pie.
Now I mainly eat Cheese & Onion, Butter Pies, and Vegetable pies, but not much taste for pies here in Ireland sadly. Unlike my native North England, where you'll find a Greggs on every street corner.
My sense of it is that Irish cuisine is even less flavorful than that of the English. If that's possible. At least the Welsh have a thing for leeks.
Really, pies are a great answer to the ancient problem: "How can I cram enough carbs and protein into my gut to avoid starvation?"
I'm a huge fan of pasties, and I'm looking forward to have a few as the temperature drops and running the oven isn't an affront to the a/c but a nice boost to my furnace.
But I think it's clear that the British reliance on pies is at variance with the German preference for potatoes, pretzels and sausages. So much sausage.
Bringing the potato to Europe had some pretty signficant cultural consequences, no?
I think pies are more an answer to “how do I stop all this nice food falling on the floor”.
As MDK indicated from his link the originslmoies, the casing was t really there to be eaten. Like with pasties and the big ridge. Handy thing for filthy hands to hold that then Gets discarded when the clean bits are all gone.
Flinty wrote: I think pies are more an answer to “how do I stop all this nice food falling on the floor”.
As MDK indicated from his link the originslmoies, the casing was t really there to be eaten. Like with pasties and the big ridge. Handy thing for filthy hands to hold that then Gets discarded when the clean bits are all gone.
I disagree. No one throws away edible food unless they have lots of it. In times of plenty, sure, the upper class would discard the casing. But that's some solid carbs right there, and subsistence farmers waste nothing.
To put it another way: I have always been very particular about food. A "picky eater," if you will.
Then I joined the Army, and learned the price of turning your nose up at an otherwise perfectly good meal. Hunger is the best seasoning.
Originally crusts were super thick, and apparently based on historical recreations of recipes, not that appetising.
However. These was the same age when your plate was a trencher, a thick slice of bread.
At the end of meal, trenchers are said in historical records to have been given to the poor. And it’s thought that as you said “waste not, want not”, someone would’ve made the casing their dinner
I don't eat meat, but when I did I was very keen on Chicken & Mushroom pie, Steak & Kidney pie, Beef & Ale pie, Cornish pasty, Game pie, Pork pie.
Now I mainly eat Cheese & Onion, Butter Pies, and Vegetable pies, but not much taste for pies here in Ireland sadly. Unlike my native North England, where you'll find a Greggs on every street corner.
Well, the butter wouldn't melt, so I put it in the pie.
More on topic, I like to make meat pies because they are filling and easy. Frozen pie crusts are cheap and available and it's pretty quick and easy to throw canned meat into it with some canned potatoes, seasoning, random veg and toss it in the oven.
I don't eat meat, but when I did I was very keen on Chicken & Mushroom pie, Steak & Kidney pie, Beef & Ale pie, Cornish pasty, Game pie, Pork pie.
Now I mainly eat Cheese & Onion, Butter Pies, and Vegetable pies, but not much taste for pies here in Ireland sadly. Unlike my native North England, where you'll find a Greggs on every street corner.
...butter pies?
The only good thing to come out of Lancashire.
Butter pie is made with a hearty filling of freshly peeled potatoes mixed with onions, mild cheddar cheese and rich butter. Seasoned simply with salt and pepper.
Flinty wrote: I think pies are more an answer to “how do I stop all this nice food falling on the floor”.
As MDK indicated from his link the originslmoies, the casing was t really there to be eaten. Like with pasties and the big ridge. Handy thing for filthy hands to hold that then Gets discarded when the clean bits are all gone.
I disagree. No one throws away edible food unless they have lots of it. In times of plenty, sure, the upper class would discard the casing. But that's some solid carbs right there, and subsistence farmers waste nothing.
To put it another way: I have always been very particular about food. A "picky eater," if you will.
Then I joined the Army, and learned the price of turning your nose up at an otherwise perfectly good meal. Hunger is the best seasoning.
That was how Cornish Pasties originated. They were eaten by Cornish tin miners, who would use the thick pastry seam down the side as a handle so they didn't touch the rest of the food with hands covered with toxic tin compounds. They would eat the rest of the pasty and throw the seam away.
[quote=Crispy78 811889 11601946 nullThat was how Cornish Pasties originated. They were eaten by Cornish tin miners, who would use the thick pastry seam down the side as a handle so they didn't touch the rest of the food with hands covered with toxic tin compounds. They would eat the rest of the pasty and throw the seam away.
Pasties are also a favorite in Michigan's Upper Peninsula as a result of copper and iron miners eating them. Love me a good pastie.
Well after reading all the Mill and here.
It seems most of the people not in the UK are calling all cottage/shepherds pies a shepherds and not varying name by meat correctly.
Which I only read all this from that Ratling Pie being called a Shepherds Pie, which it did not look like as it had crust. And then I spiralled away into all this..
I had to google ratling pie to make sure it isn't a pie made from rats. I'm not sure its what being referred to, but apparently rat pie was a real dish that was eaten in victorian britain, and was made from rats.
chaos0xomega wrote: I had to google ratling pie to make sure it isn't a pie made from rats. I'm not sure its what being referred to, but apparently rat pie was a real dish that was eaten in victorian britain, and was made from rats.
I think they mean the rumour engine picture showing something that looks a lot like a pie (or maybe a pie-shaped sandbag...) that has a relatively high likelihood of being associated with a ratling model?
Still, you now need to live with the horror of knowing your not to distant ancestors probably consumed rat pies.
There is a very high likelihood
I've eaten traditional rook pie made by my grandmum, from fledgling rooks freshly shot by my granddad. If they'd eat carrion birds I doubt rat was particularly horrifying!
Was actually pretty tasty. Apparently May 12 was the traditional day for popping off the fledgling rooks as they first left the nest, adult rooks being much less palatable.
Bad jokes aside, there are a lot of animals that are smarter then we think that puts a lot of people off about thinking of them as “food” Like we have a mental line between “pets” and “food” Obviously everyone has different lines.
I would not even think about crows/ravens/etc as eatable. Obviously, some people (at least historically) do.
I used to host potluck cookouts. You bring it, I grill it. Had friends bring some odd stuff. Got to the point people were being unsettled by some of the options, so I stopped. Specially butchers have some odd things if you go looking.
To be fair, rook pie is probably up there with the more unusual foods I have ever eaten. I doubt I'll ever have the opportunity to eat it again and I'm reducing my meat intake these days anyway.
Very much a historical meal on the way out. I'm pretty sure the family recipe died with my grandmother.
Are local greengrocer/butcher used to make a wonderful game pie (wild mushrooms, boar, pheasant, partridge), not for everyone as it had a really strong flavour.
Danny76 wrote: Well after reading all the Mill and here.
It seems most of the people not in the UK are calling all cottage/shepherds pies a shepherds and not varying name by meat correctly.
Which I only read all this from that Ratling Pie being called a Shepherds Pie, which it did not look like as it had crust. And then I spiralled away into all this..
This is largely a function of American food being abundant and homogenized over the last 70 years. The rise of the suburbs spelled doom for the small corner shop and the neighborhood butcher was replaced by big box pre-cut meats sealed in plastic or flash-frozen.
Where you do still see stuff like mutton is out in rural areas and small towns or - ironically - upscale suburbs.
As as we've already discussed, Americans generally disdain organ meat - in part because until a fairly recent backlash, our livestock was raised on industrial farms and pumped full of steriods and antibiotics that made liver and kidneys toxic.
That being said, there is a healthy amount of game taken in the States because hunting is a very 'democratic' exercise (i.e. open to anyone, lots of public land). So people who live the lifestyle will eat much more exotic stuff.
While eating actual rat and crow sound pretty bad, there is a creature called a muskrat that lives downriver of Detroit, and there is a legend that the Jesuit missionaries determined that during Lent, muskrat should be considered a form of fish. In recent years, this tradition has been formalized by a annual diocesan proclamation, the reasoning being that while muskrats are not fish, anyone wishing to eat them is doing some serious penance.
As I’ve commented elsewhere (maybe the Firearms thread?) it’s important to keep in mind the UK doesn’t really have a hunting culture like the USA.
What does exist, outside of Rabbiting is essentially highly gentrified. Someone owns the land the Deer inhabit, and they charge people through the nose for the privilege of bagging some.
However, we do still have a pretty thriving Farm Shop economy. There was one maybe 20 miles (a fair distance in UK terms) from where I used to live which amongst other things did the most delicious Marmite Infused sossies. And most, if not outright all, will offer Pies.
Whilst in my lifetime small scale butchers and greengrocers have gone, to be replaced by supermarkets, they do still exist, just in fewer numbers. And any good Butcher will order you in pretty much any cut of meat, from any legal source, as well as pies, sossies, and other meaty treaties.
Though a bit more expensive than Supermarkets, I genuinely don’t believe I’m being snobby or poncey when I say the quality is just better, so you definitely get your value.
Would pasteys be considered a dumpling rather than a pie? You also have things like Pirogi and chebureki which again, sorta dip their toes in both camps.
Also, as an aussie, savory pies all the way for me. Most supermarkets usually stock a good selection of flavours and fillings, butter chicken is becoming commonish?
As per the 1967 Sausage Roll Regulations, pasties are Definately pies.
There are some good online butchers that have good value high quality multipacks that bring higher end meat and pies and suchlike down to normal supermarket prices. If there are no farm shops around, it fills the gap well.
Also you get massive chunks of pretty robust polystyrene into the bargain (and the remains of dry ice packs used for transport)
cody.d. wrote: Would pasteys be considered a dumpling rather than a pie? You also have things like Pirogi and chebureki which again, sorta dip their toes in both camps.
Also, as an aussie, savory pies all the way for me. Most supermarkets usually stock a good selection of flavours and fillings, butter chicken is becoming commonish?
Offtopic:
Every culture has a dumpling, and they are all good.
/offtopic
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: As I’ve commented elsewhere (maybe the Firearms thread?) it’s important to keep in mind the UK doesn’t really have a hunting culture like the USA.
What does exist, outside of Rabbiting is essentially highly gentrified. Someone owns the land the Deer inhabit, and they charge people through the nose for the privilege of bagging some.
Eh, there are two-to-three other sources of hunted food than the posh hunting you mention.
Firstly, there are still countryside folk who hunt various critters on their land, like my late grandparents. They used to frequently eat rabbit, rook (annually), pidgeon, and the odd game bird that wandered into the wrong garden, their land being a house with a garden. This kind of hunting is disappearing though.
Secondly, gamekeepers for nature reserves regularly cull deer and boar populations to prevent overpopulation due to a lack of natural predators. They typically sell the meat. This is distinct from private estates.
Thirdly, (sort of hunting) fishing is much more widespread than hunting game and a lot of types of fishing allow eating catches (sea fishing and fly fishing, for example). A lot of places require a fishing permit but these are much more affordable than hunting costs. Also much easier to get away with poaching/fishing without a permit.
Frequently in the US, people would arrive on the East Coast and then head inland to available land in the Midwest/beyond the Appalachians.
This journey would often take several months, and you would not reach the area you were going to until very late Summer to -mid-Autumn.
They would generally do three things once they arrived on the new land:
1. Build a barn: If the animals your brought with you died, so did you.
2. Plant Squash and Pumpkins. These would be the plants that could grow in time for winter, and get you through the cold season into next spring.
3. Dig a hole in the ground to live in. This was typically the shelter for the family the first year. Then, next year you built a house and left the hole house as storage.
At least, that's what I learned at local historical sites in the Midwest.
Thick, unctuous gravy, made from the meat’s juices. Like Beef Dripping, Pork Leakage and Turkey Seepage.
Deglaze that roasting pan with a suitable wine (no, not “cooking” wine. Never cook with a wine you wouldn’t drink, or I’ll set about your face with a hammer) and just a modicum of flour to create the base. Beyond that other literal Stock items and blow your tiny mind gains six different walls in a four wall room.
Gravy. Proper British Defined Gravy is The Dog’s Reproductive Organs.
Please note I am not slagging off USA Defined Gravy. I don’t think I sampled it on my trip to New York. And so I cannot have an accurate opinion, let alone a Hot Take.
But proper proper home made British Defined Gravy is heaven.
Thick, unctuous gravy, made from the meat’s juices. Like Beef Dripping, Pork Leakage and Turkey Seepage.
Deglaze that roasting pan with a suitable wine (no, not “cooking” wine. Never cook with a wine you wouldn’t drink, or I’ll set about your face with a hammer) and just a modicum of flour to create the base. Beyond that other literal Stock items and blow your tiny mind gains six different walls in a four wall room.
Gravy. Proper British Defined Gravy is The Dog’s Reproductive Organs.
Please note I am not slagging off USA Defined Gravy. I don’t think I sampled it on my trip to New York. And so I cannot have an accurate opinion, let alone a Hot Take.
But proper proper home made British Defined Gravy is heaven.
Obviously we are a big country with a lot of different traditions, but that’s not too far from the mark. Any decent gravy is pan drippings thickened with a roux. If you are not getting the fond out of the bottom of the pan, you are missing out, and any cook worth their salt knows this.
Or course, there are other types of gravy. Like a sawmill sausage gravy for biscuits. Fluffy scone like things, not cookies for those of you across the pond. Heart attack on a plate, but so, so very good.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Oh Biscuits I had and *adored*. Very different to Scones, because Scones are quite dense, and Biscuits have a flaky layered brilliant to them.
I’m not sure if you had something similar over there. I know it’s part of the language drift where we use the same terms for completely different things. Scones, at least the ones I’m familiar with, are not that far off from American biscuits. Usually a bit more rich (more butter and/or cream) but not necessarily more dense. Scones are often sweeter.
They both have a range of flakey and tender, much like pie crusts, to bring us back to topic.
Deglaze that roasting pan with a suitable wine (no, not “cooking” wine. Never cook with a wine you wouldn’t drink, or I’ll set about your face with a hammer) and just a modicum of flour to create the base.
One of the perils of exploring wine, beer and spirits is that from time to time you "come a cropper" (I think that's the expression).
What to do with the remnants of the bottle? Cook with it! Here at Chateau Lloyd, we have the formal liquor collection and then the stuff kept under the sink. This is mostly mixers, but it's also where the sub-par stuff goes to be used as antifreeze on frozen meat. It's surprising how something that drinks awful can actually add a nice bit of flavor, either as a marinade or cooking additive.
cody.d. wrote: If i recall the gravy from biscuits and gravy is more of like a bechemel with sausage added?
That will get you there.
For a quick and dirty version:
Cook the sausage.
Add some flour to the pan and use all the fat rendered out to make a roux. Scrape up the fond.
Add milk and cook until you get the consistency you want.
Add pepper.
More; that’s not enough.
Serve over biscuits and enjoy.
Call your cardiologist, apologize, and make an appointment.
You could probably google something more authentic, but that’s what I do when I need a taste of home here in New York. Grain of salt; for a wanabe foody, I’m real lazy. I do sometimes pull out all the stops, but phone in a LOT of stuff.
cody.d. wrote: If i recall the gravy from biscuits and gravy is more of like a bechemel with sausage added?
That will get you there.
For a quick and dirty version:
Cook the sausage.
Add some flour to the pan and use all the fat rendered out to make a roux. Scrape up the fond.
Add milk and cook until you get the consistency you want.
Add pepper.
More; that’s not enough.
Serve over biscuits and enjoy.
Call your cardiologist, apologize, and make an appointment.
You could probably google something more authentic, but that’s what I do when I need a taste of home here in New York. Grain of salt; for a wanabe foody, I’m real lazy. I do sometimes pull out all the stops, but phone in a LOT of stuff.
I think the tide has turned on animal fats being bad for you. They're certainly better than the carb-loading that replaced them.
That being said, if you are not used to such richness, it can shock the system. Nausea and/or food coma are common symptoms.
Deglaze that roasting pan with a suitable wine (no, not “cooking” wine. Never cook with a wine you wouldn’t drink, or I’ll set about your face with a hammer) and just a modicum of flour to create the base.
One of the perils of exploring wine, beer and spirits is that from time to time you "come a cropper" (I think that's the expression).
What to do with the remnants of the bottle? Cook with it! Here at Chateau Lloyd, we have the formal liquor collection and then the stuff kept under the sink. This is mostly mixers, but it's also where the sub-par stuff goes to be used as antifreeze on frozen meat. It's surprising how something that drinks awful can actually add a nice bit of flavor, either as a marinade or cooking additive.
On this? My former former local (circa 2010 or so) had an amazing Beer Festival. And I sample every single tipple. Even the Ciders (including that Welsh one which I reckon a second half pint of would’ve send me radgey). The only one I didn’t enjoy as a drink was a Trappist Beer.
But……it would’ve made any beef and ale stew, or pie, utterly legendary.
Easy E wrote: Frequently in the US, people would arrive on the East Coast and then head inland to available land in the Midwest/beyond the Appalachians.
This journey would often take several months, and you would not reach the area you were going to until very late Summer to -mid-Autumn.
They would generally do three things once they arrived on the new land:
1. Build a barn: If the animals your brought with you died, so did you.
2. Plant Squash and Pumpkins. These would be the plants that could grow in time for winter, and get you through the cold season into next spring.
3. Dig a hole in the ground to live in. This was typically the shelter for the family the first year. Then, next year you built a house and left the hole house as storage.
At least, that's what I learned at local historical sites in the Midwest.
So, what you’re telling me is that Minecraft nerd-holes are historically accurate? Cool.
Definately. From the Bronze Age onward at least. if you dig a hole your walls don’t need to be built up so high. Also, cave living has a long and storied history.
Flinty wrote: Definately. From the Bronze Age onward at least. if you dig a hole your walls don’t need to be built up so high. Also, cave living has a long and storied history.
Counterpoint: in heavily forested areas, log cabins were easier. Tree roots made digging difficult, so just cut down some trees to create a clearing, pile the logs up and cut a door. The Little House on the Prairie author has a story about building a cabin in the woods.
Michigan also has a pretty high water table (what with being a swamp surrounded by water), so above-ground shelters (tents with tree bark in some cases) was the basic idea.
I think pasties were popular because they could be produced locally - the climate favors animal husbandry, potatoes and just enough wheat to make a pastry shell.
I'd love to take a deer and report on the result of a venison pot pie.
A slightly trickier meat to cook if you’re used to farm raised meat because it’s so lean. But when done right it’s delicious.
Dammit, now I want Venison!
Evelyn Waugh described eating Scottish venison in his Sword of Honour trilogy by having a character "desperately chewing the gristle" before ultimately giving up.
It's very lean, and in my teen years it was more prevalent in our family freezer than beef, so I'm acquainted with its peculiarities.
Looks suspiciously like cheese casserole in a bread bowl to me.
I assume a lot of this is from people starting to make a pie (covering on the bottom and the top), leaving off the top, and calling the topless pie a pie. You know, like what would happen if you took a pre-made pie crust, put stuff on top of that crust, and then served it without coming up with a covering.
To my mind, a pie filling should be baked entirely within the Pie.
For a Beefs Wellingtons, the joint is usually seared before the whole thing is assembled. So wouldn’t qualify as a lovely tasty pie.
Also you tend to be using a single bit of meat, rather than diced, as you see in a pie.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, as much as they’re a favourite of mine (and I really should eat them more often) Fish/Fisherman’s/Admirals Pie can’t really count as a Pie either, because there’s no pastry involved. Once again it’s a mash topping.
I'm pretty sure the "pie filling should be baked entirely within the pie" criteria might disqualify a number of other things that we have already agreed upon to be pies. I've certainly made a number of pies over the years that required some prior preparation of certain ingredients in advance of final assembly and baking.
I can't say that I have ever heard of a pie filling going in raw. The filling would take far longer to cook than the lid. The meat needs frying first, and any veg at least part boiling. Then there's the stock...
Flan. That’s a flan. A tasty flan. But a flan. Maybe a tart.
I believe that would make it a custard. Flan is a tape of custard, not a category of dessert itself.
That usage of flan comes from Spanish. In UK English (and also French), flan refers to custard tarts (flan pâtissier/parisien, for example). The filling of pumpkin "pie" is also a custard, so it meets the classification for a flan under that etymology.
If we've gone down the route of saying Shepard's Pie and fish pies aren't pies because of their tasty tasty mashed potato crust, then I'm afraid pumpkin pie must be relegated to the tart section.
Flan. That’s a flan. A tasty flan. But a flan. Maybe a tart.
I believe that would make it a custard. Flan is a tape of custard, not a category of dessert itself.
That usage of flan comes from Spanish. In UK English (and also French), flan refers to custard tarts (flan pâtissier/parisien, for example). The filling of pumpkin "pie" is also a custard, so it meets the classification for a flan under that etymology.
As a hispanic man, to me flan is a specific type of custard. I.E. All flans are custards, not all custards are flans.
1. Bring up Google
2. Type in “local butchers”
3. Make a note, mental, digital or written, it doesn’t matter, of the four closest to you
4. Visit each in turn, in the order of your choice, until you find one selling pre-made pies
5. Buy the pie of your preference.
6. Go home. With the pie. Go on, run back and collect it you silly Billy
7. Cook it
8. HEAVEN.
Best recipe for all pies for me would include a short crust pastry to line the dish, and topped with a puff pastry lid. After that it depends on what kind of filling you want, but that gravy needs reducing until it's closer to a sauce in consistency.
1. Bring up Google
2. Type in “local butchers”
3. Make a note, mental, digital or written, it doesn’t matter, of the four closest to you
4. Visit each in turn, in the order of your choice, until you find one selling pre-made pies
5. Buy the pie of your preference.
6. Go home. With the pie. Go on, run back and collect it you silly Billy
7. Cook it
8. HEAVEN.
My local butcher, despite being probably among the best in my country, doesn't really do pies.
We typically make more sweet pies than savory ones. Being Americans (and therefore into convenience), we usually go with a frozen crust to start, though my wife had gone old school once or twice.
The problem is the marginal effort required. An additional complicating factor is the fact that she reacts unfavorably to gluten, and working with GF dough is challenging. Easier to buy a frozen GF shell.
During the cold months, I'll sometimes whip up a savory chicken or beef pie, using some fresh ingredients but canned meat. Warms the house, smells nice, quite filling.
The best pie recipe is, of course, apple and blackberry that my mum made when I was younger.
Get some good cooking apples and stew them for a bit with some sugar, cinnamon, and other spices, add in blackberries picked from the brambles at the bottom of the garden in my childhood home, encase in shortcrust pastry and sprinkle sugar over the top.
Serve with custard or cream and eat while watching Star Trek Voyager and/or Last of the Summer Wine.
If it's not sweet it's not pie. Cottage and shepherd's pie are simply misnamed.
The best pie in the world comes from Limburg in the Netherlands. Americans may have cukturally appropriated apple pie, but recipes for fruit pies have been found here dating back to before their silly continent was even discovered so they can just ef off.
And the best Limburg pie (Limburgse vlaai) is crossberry pie with whipped egg foam on top.
Bran Dawri wrote: If it's not sweet it's not pie. Cottage and shepherd's pie are simply misnamed.
The best pie in the world comes from Limburg in the Netherlands. Americans may have cukturally appropriated apple pie, but recipes for fruit pies have been found here dating back to before their silly continent was even discovered so they can just ef off.
Americans came from many places, and people brought things here with them. They did not "appropriate" Dutch Apple Pie, they shared it. The west side of Michigan is massively of Dutch heritage and they preserved their traditions.
As I said upthread, most "American" food is German because for a long time, a plurality of Americans were of German origin (and that includes Austrians, Swiss, etc.).
Interesting sidebar on that: my daughter is having a Halloween party tonight. There will be movies, and food, and she has asked everyone to bring a favorite snack to share.
This is anathema to my Southern wife, because it implies a lack of hospitality on our part. She doesn't understand because the cultural touchstones where she is from are English and Scots-Irish, while here it is heavily Germanic (and historically French, believe it or not). Potluck dinners are very much a thing in the Upper Midwest; rare in the South.
Sometimes we do it "wrong," but that's usually a function of the climate and locally available foods. For example, Americans rarely use organ meat because it's actually hard to get. Sometimes "authentic" isn't actually the best way to do it. I'm reliably informed that Chinese-American cuisine beats the real thing because we use prime cuts of fish and meat.
But sometimes we also do it right, keeping it scrupulously authentic. Here and there one can still find enclaves stubbornly doing it the Old Way.
It is interesting that authentic English food is so rare here. And of course we banned haggis imports for decades. Also: absinthe. But now you can get them both.
For instance? In the UK? It’s good manners to clear your plate, to show you appreciate the effort of your host.. But, or so I’m told, in Japan? It’s good manners to leave at least a wee bit, as otherwise you’re suggesting the host didn’t serve enough food.
And in the modern day? Well. I guess maybe pre-modern*, when work was having a food day? I’d look into and usually follow vegan versions of whatever it was I had in mind. Because whilst not vegan myself, or even veggie? Vegan is mostly, if not universally** Halal and Kosher, so the maximum percentage of my colleagues could bear witness to my culinary might.
*I’m so, so bored of “once in a generation” events.
**I’m really not that well versed on what is and isn’t. I would Google, and make best effort. But having made from scratch, I could at least accurately answer questions from my more particular colleagues. And did so honestly.
Americans came from many places, and people brought things here with them. They did not "appropriate" Dutch Apple Pie, they shared it. The west side of Michigan is massively of Dutch heritage and they preserved their traditions.
As I said upthread, most "American" food is German because for a long time, a plurality of Americans were of German origin (and that includes Austrians, Swiss, etc.).
Interesting sidebar on that: my daughter is having a Halloween party tonight. There will be movies, and food, and she has asked everyone to bring a favorite snack to share.
Oh, I know where it came from. Wasn't being completely serious. Perhaps I should've included a smiley.
Anyway, I was just having a bit of a double dig at the saying "as American as apple pie" and the idea of cultural appropriation (but that's straying into Dakka no-no territory, so best just leave it), because there's nothing inherently american about that.
The comment about the best pie coming from Limburg stands though. I've had pies from all over the world, and they all fall short.
I do like "everyone bring some stuff" parties though. Excellent way to sample some new dishes, and get the recipe right from the source.
Maybe best to assume every post here is at least partially tongue in cheek? Just saves time and effort and that. And even if someone is being deadly serious about…well….pies. There nothing quite as funny as ridiculing the ridiculous.
I thinly slice apple when I make pies. One year for the 4th of July, I even used a star shaped cookie cutter on them and made the most American apple pie ever. Cinnamon stripes for a flag top (stars cut out on the corner to vent) and stars inside. Stars and stripes forever. Stupid amount of extra work, but fun.
I miss food days at work. Main drawback to WFH IMHO. Used to have an office potluck on the 3rd Thursday of each month. Was a lot of fun, got try try new things and show off my cooking skills. As I lived like 5 minutes from the office, a few times I played chicken with my unreliable oven to deliver fresh backed goods. Do all the prep work the night before, bake off a dozen buttermilk currant scones, toss them in a basket with a towel over them to keep the heat in, and run to clock in as close as I could. Fun times.
I'm still weirded out by the revelation of how much of American culture is actually German in origin. Intellectually I know you're right, just living the in New Jersey and NYC region my entire life, I'm used to the predominant ethnicities being Italian, Irish, and/or Irish, often in some mixture. Thinking about it, I guess a lot of the people I mentally categorize as "american" or "indistinct heritage" are actually germanic though, or at least have german sounding last names.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevelon wrote: I thinly slice apple when I make pies. One year for the 4th of July, I even used a star shaped cookie cutter on them and made the most American apple pie ever. Cinnamon stripes for a flag top (stars cut out on the corner to vent) and stars inside. Stars and stripes forever. Stupid amount of extra work, but fun.
I miss food days at work. Main drawback to WFH IMHO. Used to have an office potluck on the 3rd Thursday of each month. Was a lot of fun, got try try new things and show off my cooking skills. As I lived like 5 minutes from the office, a few times I played chicken with my unreliable oven to deliver fresh backed goods. Do all the prep work the night before, bake off a dozen buttermilk currant scones, toss them in a basket with a towel over them to keep the heat in, and run to clock in as close as I could. Fun times.
I can help you with that, read through the comments on this reddit thread - you will never want to go to another office potluck again. Ever. The comments are highly entertaining, however do not recommend reading while eating or shortly after eating, speaking from personal experience....
Nevelon wrote: I thinly slice apple when I make pies. One year for the 4th of July, I even used a star shaped cookie cutter on them and made the most American apple pie ever. Cinnamon stripes for a flag top (stars cut out on the corner to vent) and stars inside. Stars and stripes forever. Stupid amount of extra work, but fun.
I slice them into cubes. Mix with raisins, cinnamon and just a tiny bit of sugar, depending on the apple in question.
And that really is American Pie. I'll give you that one.
chaos0xomega wrote: I'm still weirded out by the revelation of how much of American culture is actually German in origin. Intellectually I know you're right, just living the in New Jersey and NYC region my entire life, I'm used to the predominant ethnicities being Italian, Irish, and/or Irish, often in some mixture. Thinking about it, I guess a lot of the people I mentally categorize as "american" or "indistinct heritage" are actually germanic though, or at least have german sounding last names.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevelon wrote: I thinly slice apple when I make pies. One year for the 4th of July, I even used a star shaped cookie cutter on them and made the most American apple pie ever. Cinnamon stripes for a flag top (stars cut out on the corner to vent) and stars inside. Stars and stripes forever. Stupid amount of extra work, but fun.
I miss food days at work. Main drawback to WFH IMHO. Used to have an office potluck on the 3rd Thursday of each month. Was a lot of fun, got try try new things and show off my cooking skills. As I lived like 5 minutes from the office, a few times I played chicken with my unreliable oven to deliver fresh backed goods. Do all the prep work the night before, bake off a dozen buttermilk currant scones, toss them in a basket with a towel over them to keep the heat in, and run to clock in as close as I could. Fun times.
I can help you with that, read through the comments on this reddit thread - you will never want to go to another office potluck again. Ever. The comments are highly entertaining, however do not recommend reading while eating or shortly after eating, speaking from personal experience....
Heh, that was amusing.
There were people in my office who I would not touch what they brought to food day. Zero trust. But most people were OK. Most people who couldn’t cook were self aware enough to just bring chips or something pre-made from the store.
I’ve got bias for the whole German/American influence thing. My dad’s side of my family is German, came over when my grandfather was 5. So it’s hard for me to separate what came over from the old country with them, or was picked up via American diffusion. But a lot of our Christmas recipes are from there.
Bran Dawri wrote: Oh, I know where it came from. Wasn't being completely serious. Perhaps I should've included a smiley.
Anyway, I was just having a bit of a double dig at the saying "as American as apple pie" and the idea of cultural appropriation (but that's straying into Dakka no-no territory, so best just leave it), because there's nothing inherently american about that.
The comment about the best pie coming from Limburg stands though. I've had pies from all over the world, and they all fall short.
I do like "everyone bring some stuff" parties though. Excellent way to sample some new dishes, and get the recipe right from the source.
I wasn't angry, just wanted to clarify things because many people aren't aware of how various foods have been transmitted.
And in fact the excellence of that recipe is shown by the fact that it is actually called Dutch Apple Pie.
It's funny, because the only English stuff people brag about being authentic relates to tea. Yeah, fish and chips, but the Germans famously batter fry everything (including batter itself), so only partial credit can be awarded there.
Mince pie is something I've seen, but only old people seemed to like it. Usually served at Thanksgiving, when everyone under 60 was piling into the pumpkin pie.
Also now I think of it? Diced apple somehow feels more suited to a crumble? No crumbles are not pies.
Probably medium thickness? Thick enough that they maintain some consistency throughout the whole cooking process, but thin enough that they end up nice and soft at the end.
Fish and chips is an early example of British multiculturalism in food. It is a fusion of Portuguese fried fish and Belgian chips that arose in the 1800's.
I think the Brits can claim the whole "music hall" form of comedy as theirs without anyone objecting.
Dinner tonight was a simple chicken soup with onions, carrots from the garden, and rice. The rice makes it very thick, my wife says it's really a stew.
If I had a pie crush handy, it is dense enough to be a filling.
Since sugar cream pie exists the only arguments are what pie is second place, and exactly how little can you trust a person's opinion who doesn't like Shepard's Pie or Cottage Pie...
Flinty wrote: Definately. From the Bronze Age onward at least. if you dig a hole your walls don’t need to be built up so high. Also, cave living has a long and storied history.
Counterpoint: in heavily forested areas, log cabins were easier. Tree roots made digging difficult, so just cut down some trees to create a clearing, pile the logs up and cut a door. The Little House on the Prairie author has a story about building a cabin in the woods.
Michigan also has a pretty high water table (what with being a swamp surrounded by water), so above-ground shelters (tents with tree bark in some cases) was the basic idea.
I think pasties were popular because they could be produced locally - the climate favors animal husbandry, potatoes and just enough wheat to make a pastry shell.
I'd love to take a deer and report on the result of a venison pot pie.
Most of my experience was from the Great Prairie region. Typically, the cabins were built the following year after they passed the first winter.
Most of the pies they had (if any) were Pumpkin as these were easy to grow in autumn and still get a harvest.
Just Tony wrote: Since sugar cream pie exists the only arguments are what pie is second place, and exactly how little can you trust a person's opinion who doesn't like Shepard's Pie or Cottage Pie...
You've clearly never had crossberry pie, or you wpuld know just how axiomatically wrong you are.
Shepherd's and cottage pies are good, don't get me wrong. I just think they're misnamed.
Also, venison pot pie? I think that might be our Christmas dinner now. Sounds really good.
chaos0xomega wrote: blackberry in general is an under-appreciated berry. Would love an apple and blackberry pie.
Picking blackberries is also great foraging practice as a kid. Its easy to find the right berry (nothing else in a hedgerow looks like a blackberry), very plentiful, and still a bit of a game because the blasted things grow on nature's barbed wire, often in a hedge with actual barbed wire plus assorted other thorny plants and nettles. Then your hard work translates into a delicious pie or crumble. I love a good blackberry foraging session up the fields, good to do whilst walking the dog.
Winberries/bilberries* are also very fun to forage, but I didn't live close enough to moorland for this to grow and we rarely went on a winberry picking trip. Taste better than blueberries though. They are great to smear on your skin to draw stuff in blue-purple.
*Regional variants of the same berry. I prefer winberry myself. They look like tiny, slightly more purple versions of American blueberries.
I swear you guys are making up berries in this thread lol.
They're basically mini blueberries (but tastier...)
Pretty little bush, grows in moorland on hills. This example is taken from a Reddit post and was apparently growing on Bannau Brycheiniog (the Brecon Beacons) in Wales.
chaos0xomega wrote: I swear you guys are making up berries in this thread lol.
Europeans live in very local places. As in: you're in a village that is a ten minute drive from the next village, but the locals will tell you that the beer, food and basically everything in that other village is wrong. And it has been for generations.
Hence the joke: Americans think 100 years is a long time; Europeans think 100 miles is a long distance.
I think part of this has to do with the micro-climates in Europe, where you can get wild variations simply from being on the other side of a hill.
North America just doesn't have as many of these abrupt transitions, and they also don't have centuries of ethnic separation to cement them. Like the whole cider/wine/beer thing is a riddle in an enigma wrapped around a bunch of drunks.
This thread has me very hungry for pie, though. Pumpkin pie, which is a pie.
Britain also has a near inexplicable variety of accents.
Scotland has distinct regional accents. England has loads and probably the greatest distinctions. Wales I’m honestly not sure on, as I’ve not spent a great deal of time with Welsh folk or in Wales.
Scotland has distinct regional accents. England has loads and probably the greatest distinctions. Wales I’m honestly not sure on, as I’ve not spent a great deal of time with Welsh folk or in Wales.
North and South Wales have very distinct accents (in general) and different dialects (in Welsh). Angelsey accents are also noticeably different from Gwynedd and Powys is a bit weird because it is a large county that has different accents in the north (close to Gwynedd), south, and along the English Marches where the accent starts to blend into the English accents.
Funnily enough, watching a show on iPlayer right now called “Paranormal; The Girl, the Ghost and the Gravestone”.
Presenter is Welsh, but there’s a definite Liverpool twang to some of her pronounciations. Wiki shows she was born in Caernarfon and studied in Leeds, so I guess it’s just her real accent, and not one particularly changed by where she’s been since growing up.
chaos0xomega wrote: ive never heard of crossberry before, sounds like something you can only really get in south africa?
No, it's European. It's one of the more unique (and hence distinguishably local) flavours of Limburgse Vlaai or Limburg pie.
Though I have seen crossberry marmelade (jam for non-British) in the UK.
chaos0xomega wrote: ive never heard of crossberry before, sounds like something you can only really get in south africa?
No, it's European. It's one of the more unique (and hence distinguishably local) flavours of Limburgse Vlaai or Limburg pie.
Though I have seen crossberry marmelade (jam for non-British) in the UK.
Ah! Gooseberries!
I was thinking something didn't add up, as I've never heard of crossberries either and was also only finding a South African plant. I put the pie name in your link into translate and it comes out with gooseberry foam pie. I think this is one of those things that doesn't translate directly as kruisbessen is definitely crossberry.
I like gooseberry fool more than pie, although my partner is partial to gooseberry jelly. The vlaai looks good though... *Drools*
Huh weird. I distinctly recall it saying crossberry marmelade on the package. Maybe I just recognised the berries and my mind made a leap to crossberries. Or maybe I'm just getting old.
Then again kruisbessen is the Dutch word. In Limburgs they're called steekbaere or kroeselbaere depending on what part of the province you're from. Languages are weird.
Regardless, yes it is good. Best pie in the world.
Languages are indeed weird, as are regional variants for things like berries. See winberry/bilberry above for a similar regional difference for a type of berry.
I'm wondering if anyone makes elderberry pie now, seeing as those are also really easy to forage. Edit: a Google search says yes, you can. Looks tasty.
Haighus wrote: I'm wondering if anyone makes elderberry pie now, seeing as those are also really easy to forage. Edit: a Google search says yes, you can. Looks tasty.
Highly popular among those whose mothers were hamsters.
(Or is that Hampstead? So confusing.)
I've mentioned that German culture is pervasive and therefore largely taken for granted in the US, and in my case, it resulted in the curious circumstance that my great-great-grandfather spoke fluent German, despite having the surname of Lloyd and having been in the country for several generations.
The reason was that the Lloyds tended to marry German girls, who in the 19th century were (figuratively) washing ashore. The result was a complete loss of any connection to Wales, but solid German baking traditions, including springerle cookies at Christmas.
but my Mum had it semi-regularly when she was a girl. Her parents both worked on a farm and rooks (and rabbits) were shot as pest control and eaten by the farm workers.
and to further confuse the Shepard's/Cottage pie story i have seen and eaten Shepard's Pie Pies which were a standard Shepard's pie sealed in a hot water pastry case like a Scot's Pie. I'm pretty sure it's a recent innovation like maccaroni pies that crop up at a fair number of Scottish butchers (some of which are pies, having a top, and some of which aren't really as they only have the lower pastry case)
I am still incredibly offended and upset over the consumption of Corvids.
As for things that are much better than they sound - wheat pie, also known as Easter Grain pie or pastiera napoletana. Not sure how prevalent it is in the UK or even the US outside of the NYC/NJ region, but its pretty common around this part of the US come springtime, and incredibly delicious.
For me, on a Steak related pie? I love a Puff Pastry lid, even to the point where if it’s just pub style “pot of stew and a separate disc of puff pastry” I’ll forgive and forget.
I don’t dislike shortcrust, but I find the quality swings too wildly from delicious to cardboard, and everything in between.
But, for fruit based pies? Shortcrust all the way.
Just…don’t wuss out. Make it with actual proper butter (as in Kerrygold for our US Chums, who’s native butter is apparently more pallid and sad than a goth kid at a pop concert in winter)
For me, on a Steak related pie? I love a Puff Pastry lid, even to the point where if it’s just pub style “pot of stew and a separate disc of puff pastry” I’ll forgive and forget.
I don’t dislike shortcrust, but I find the quality swings too wildly from delicious to cardboard, and everything in between.
But, for fruit based pies? Shortcrust all the way.
Just…don’t wuss out. Make it with actual proper butter (as in Kerrygold for our US Chums, who’s native butter is apparently more pallid and sad than a goth kid at a pop concert in winter)
Old fashioned American butter has its place, but I generally prefer Kerrygold myself.
American butter is typically 80% butterfat whereas Irish (and most European butter) is at least 82-84% butterfat, apparently that small percentage makes a big difference. Also has to do with the feed, Irish cows eat a diet higher in beta carotene than american cows, which results in a difference in flavor and coloration in irish butters
chaos0xomega wrote: American butter is typically 80% butterfat whereas Irish (and most European butter) is at least 82-84% butterfat, apparently that small percentage makes a big difference. Also has to do with the feed, Irish cows eat a diet higher in beta carotene than american cows, which results in a difference in flavor and coloration in irish butters
This also goes to the notion that whatever you grew up with is "the real thing." And of course there's the snob factor.
I think it's much like liquor - for certain essential operations, go for the good stuff, but for everyday use, the store brand will do fine.
We had our first snow on Halloween, so pasties are in the near future.
I guess? Irish butter and American butter are both real butter, they're just different forms of it. I would never say one is more or less real than the other, personally. Having a preference for one or the other, thats something I understand.
Just Tony wrote: Every pie is a personal pie if you work hard and believe in yourself...
Yeah, I remember being able to power through pie. Now? Not so much.
On Veteran's Day I did my usual tour of places offering complimentary food. Took me a week to lose what I gained in a day.
My emphasis is on quality rather than quantity. The kids think it's funny how I now want only dainty servings of dessert, but that's life. Current state of debate is one store-bought, one homemade. We'll see.
One day I’ll continue my experiencing of Americana.
Ideally following a Lottery Win, get an extended visitor Visa, a set of decent wheels, and go see where the road takes me, trying Diners, Mom and Pop places, and as much pie as I can stomach.
No coffee though. That triggers migraines, and migraines suck.
Ideally following a Lottery Win, get an extended visitor Visa, a set of decent wheels, and go see where the road takes me, trying Diners, Mom and Pop places, and as much pie as I can stomach.
No coffee though. That triggers migraines, and migraines suck.
Living in a college town, I've got much of the world cuisine right at my doorstep. I'm particularly partial to the Ethiopian joint down the road. When I first discovered it, I asked what was the appropriate drink to go with the meal. The answer?
Coke.
That's what they drink with dinner in Ethiopia. Lovely food, quite spicy and very flavorful.
Oh we don’t hurt for World Food in the UK It’s definitely one of the perks of living here.
When I was office based, once a week we had a Street Food Pop Up outside. Devoured all sorts of tasty nomnoms in those days. Even better on Pod Food Days, as with folks from all over working together I was again exposed to new foods.
Keep trying to convince my boys on that one, they have terribly risk-averse palates and basically if it's not beige and out of the freezer they don't want to know about it.
Hah! that sounds familiar. Although eldest is making tentative steps toward the spice rack and actual flavour. youngest is still not convinced that flavour is useful for anything
My wife just got done doing a custom order for a bunch of sugar cream pies, with the added bonus that there would always be a pie or two extra that is for our house.
Visiting the frozen pie section, I noticed there were apple pies and Dutch Apple Pies.
Ask for them by name!
While not strictly pie-related, our overseas friends are no doubt aware that in two days Americans will be rendered near-comatose by turkey consumption. Our bird is thawing and tomorrow afternoon will entire the brine portion of its afterlife.
I have to say, I was a brine skeptic, but I've been completely won over. It really seals in the flavor and keeps the meat moist.
Haighus wrote: Er... is brining what it sounds like (soaked specifically in salty water) or just marinading in various liquids of the cook's choice?
My understanding of the food science is that the salt helps move the liquid into the turkey. The salt also helps to tenderize the meat, breaking up tough proteans and stuff. Now, if it’s just salty water, it will still make for a moister bird. But why just use water when you can infuse more flavor? So it’s more than just a marinade.
Haighus wrote: Er... is brining what it sounds like (soaked specifically in salty water) or just marinading in various liquids of the cook's choice?
My understanding of the food science is that the salt helps move the liquid into the turkey. The salt also helps to tenderize the meat, breaking up tough proteans and stuff. Now, if it’s just salty water, it will still make for a moister bird. But why just use water when you can infuse more flavor? So it’s more than just a marinade.
It’s an extra step, but worth the effort.
Thanks for that, so it is a salty marinade Dunno why I didn't think you could just salt the cider.
Haighus wrote: Er... is brining what it sounds like (soaked specifically in salty water) or just marinading in various liquids of the cook's choice?
My understanding of the food science is that the salt helps move the liquid into the turkey. The salt also helps to tenderize the meat, breaking up tough proteans and stuff. Now, if it’s just salty water, it will still make for a moister bird. But why just use water when you can infuse more flavor? So it’s more than just a marinade.
It’s an extra step, but worth the effort.
Thanks for that, so it is a salty marinade Dunno why I didn't think you could just salt the cider.
I’m not sure if there is a salt ratio you need to get the osmosis going. But it seems like you could probably look up a brining recipe and swap out cider for some of the liquid.
There is some science at work, so I’d not just wing it. But a lot of info out there on the internet. I’m just running on what my brother told me when he started brining turkeys years ago.
Words cannot describe the flavor. The first time I tried turkey she made this way? My knees gave way and I may have had a tear in my eye.
We put ours in the brine earlier today. My wife has some concoction that leans on vegetable broth. It has radically changed my appreciation for Thanksgiving turkey.
Sadly, my wife is now claiming that the stuffing should not be made in the bird. Health concerns or some such nonsense. I told her fine, just scoop a couple of handfuls for me in there and I'll take my chances.
Pies are cherry and pumpkin, both store bought. With toddler grandkids running amok, we have to focus our efforts - the bird takes priority. We will use homemade whipped cream, though.
On the brine, I’m guessing you need just the right level of salination that it initially sooks liquid out the bird, which then lowers the salination enough that the bird then reabsorbs the brine?
In addition to the health/food safety issues with not stuffing the bird, roasting it empty also means you don’t need to start it cooking at 2 in the morning. Which is a nice perk.
Nevelon wrote: In addition to the health/food safety issues with not stuffing the bird, roasting it empty also means you don’t need to start it cooking at 2 in the morning. Which is a nice perk.
Yes, it does shorten the cooking time, but I didn't get her argument that it wouldn't cook through. We have a meat thermometer and know how to use it. My mother's family always stuffed the bird, always checked temperatures, no issues and their stuffing was so much better than my father's side, which cooked it solo.
We have a larger bird this year, so extending the cook time is an argument I'll accept.
I've never really come across this stuffing-in-poultry-is-dangerous angle before.
Maybe has something to do with the very strict salmonella control in British chickens and turkeys. Flocks are regularly tested and any found to have non-vaccine pathogenic salmonella are killed.
Haighus wrote: I've never really come across this stuffing-in-poultry-is-dangerous angle before.
Maybe has something to do with the very strict salmonella control in British chickens and turkeys. Flocks are regularly tested and any found to have non-vaccine pathogenic salmonella are killed.
It makes no sense. One can (and I do) check the temperature of all parts of the bird, including the stuffing. Stuffing it does add to the cook time, but I think the moistness of taste of it more than compensates.
We do have a large instant stuffing industry ("Stove Top"), so this certainly boosts them as they can claim it is safer. Having watched "Clarkson's Farm," it's clear that US agriculture has far more political pull than ag in the UK, so guidelines like this are not uncommon.
I wouldn't take Clarkson's Farm as representative of the UK agriculture industry, but I agree the UK industry has less pull than the US industry.
To be honest, even regularly checking the turkey temperature seems odd though. I know my family never does. Used to slow cooking in a range oven, mind, so that may have something to do with it.
Haighus wrote: I wouldn't take Clarkson's Farm as representative of the UK agriculture industry, but I agree the UK industry has less pull than the US industry.
To be honest, even regularly checking the turkey temperature seems odd though. I know my family never does. Used to slow cooking in a range oven, mind, so that may have something to do with it.
No, I didn't regard the show as authoritative, but as someone with experience in agriculture, the small details it contained were quite revealing. To to wander too far afield, but US policy is actually to encourage on-site sales, offering financial incentives to farmers to do so. A farmer who wants to sell fresh pies with local ingredients would get a government grant, not red tape.
Checking the temperature is more a function of my wife's OCD than necessity.
"It's done."
"Check it again."
"There, I told you it's done."
"Try that part."
"It's even more done."
"Are you sure?"
"Would you like to read it yourself?"
We all have our quirks, and that's a fairly minor one.
Post-feast update: The "bake yourself" pumpkin pie was ok, butI actually preferred the Grand Traverse Pie Company's cherry pie.
I had a bit of both, topped with homemade whipped cream.
Everything else was good, but my lovely wife's anxiety caused us to prepare twice as much food as was necessary. Effective immediately, everyone has a daily quota of turkey and stuffing. NO SHIRKERS!
Joy made a homemade pecan pie for Thanksgiving, and I was VERY thankful. I guess there's also a sugar cream pie that was made but didn't make it to the table as the pecan pie and pumpkin roll were performing the dessert roles admirably.
Haighus wrote: I've never really come across this stuffing-in-poultry-is-dangerous angle before.
Maybe has something to do with the very strict salmonella control in British chickens and turkeys. Flocks are regularly tested and any found to have non-vaccine pathogenic salmonella are killed.
I think it’s more of an issue around people not adjusting their cooking times to account for the additional mass of the stuffing, etc. The few times I have cooked turkey, the recipe I used has you put the stuffing in the neck, rather than the main body cavity. It still absorbs the juices and flavours the meat, but doesn’t get insulated in the same way.
Jadenim wrote: I think it’s more of an issue around people not adjusting their cooking times to account for the additional mass of the stuffing, etc. The few times I have cooked turkey, the recipe I used has you put the stuffing in the neck, rather than the main body cavity. It still absorbs the juices and flavours the meat, but doesn’t get insulated in the same way.
The lack of stuffing did speed up our cooking time considerably. However, we always took it into account.
Easy E wrote: 2 Pumpkin Pies made and eaten at my household.
I could not make the family gathering, but they had 25 pies and 2 cheesecakes. A small year for them.
Outstanding! The extended family Thanksgiving finally broke up into component elements because no one had table space for 65.
Being the second-born grandkid (my cousin beat me by 10 days), I always got to eat with the Grownups, which at the time felt quite important, but of course later on my younger relatives noted that they had much, much more fun at the Kiddie Table.
Me grandmother's recipe always included a bit of curry powder.
