I'm not sure what PP thinks they're focusing on now. They sold.... from what I can see everything except MonPoc? I think they're done.
As for Warmachine.... man, I do not know. The game is great. This could be what both it and Steamforged need to get back on track. It's also likely to fall victim to Steamforged's hubris. Just have to see what the future holds I suppose.
Man, WARMACHINE was some of thr best gaming experience I had back in the 00's.
Sadly now, no one has any interest in it where I live. So it is a dead game for me. Hope it does well, as it would be an absolute shame to see it leave the hobby.
Not sure how I feel about this, Mk. III and Mk. IV have been train wrecks due to the PP's mismanagement of their own company.
SFG doesn't have a good track record of keeping a game alive at this point, haven't heard ANY noise about a game from SFG since before they cancelled Guild Ball and blamed it on the player base...
And now they pick up one of the most competitive oriented games out there? Wonder how long it will be until they cease supporting the IP they just purchased from PP while they chase some quick sales with Kickstarter after Kickstarter and new licensed games.
Hope it works out for them, but I don't really see this going anywhere.
If they let go of some of the toxic positivity mods that PP has, that might help. I doubt prior mistakes will be acknowledged but I figure this will be a cluster for a bit.
I've always loved the aesthetic of Warmachine and many of the minis look great. Even the older stuff appealed to me, but the game ecosystem just never seemed to grow.
Not much point in buying in if everything just sits on the shelf.
I haven't played since Mk2, but I used to be a big fan. Even had a bunch of the 3.5 d&d rpg stuff. Just wasn't happy with the direction of the game in mk3.
Would be great to see the game revive, but I think shop owners here in Germany are gonna be mega skeptical of picking it back up.
Warmachine is actually doing pretty well in Warsaw, with a few shops stocking mk4, a bunch of new players and local tournaments getting full attendace of 16 every time. And all this thanks to that one guy running demo games everywhere and promoting it like crazy 🙂
Not sure if PP had the rights to do a Legend of the Five Rings game or not. They had some of the figures in their monthly subscription boxes a few years back and I had heard rumors of a rank and file game coming out again (Like Clan Wars). Could that be where the focus is going? I know a few people who would definitely be down for that.
So the folks who created and managed Guild Ball now own Warmachine? I wish them and, more importantly, their customers the best of luck (no sarcasm but rather a hint of trepidation).
Theophony wrote: Not sure if PP had the rights to do a Legend of the Five Rings game or not. They had some of the figures in their monthly subscription boxes a few years back and I had heard rumors of a rank and file game coming out again (Like Clan Wars). Could that be where the focus is going? I know a few people who would definitely be down for that.
I think they just got a licence to make a few character models due to Matt Wilson's involvement in their original conception.
Ah yes, the company that couldn’t keep up with the demand for Guild Ball and canceled it because its players were too competitive picks up the rights to Warmachine…
LunarSol wrote: I'm not sure what PP thinks they're focusing on now. They sold.... from what I can see everything except MonPoc? I think they're done.
The way it reads, it seems like PP gets to focus on the rules and design with Steamforged doing the marketing, releasing, et al.
So it seems like its mostly a distribution deal. I suppose that makes sense. Our recently closed FLGS couldn't get PP stuff at all due to a lack of distribution but had no trouble stocking SFG.
This feels like a black hole colliding with another black hole to be honest.
I used to quite enjoy Warmachine but PP's shenanigans burnt all their bridges with the folks in my area.
Most of the Warmahordes players moved to Guildball...
However, I'm really hoping that together the two companies can sort themselves out and give us a cool game with stompy robots and allied wizards. It's a rather forlorn hope but I'd like to see something good pulled out of the ashes.
It was question of time for PP to close shop or sell out... and I absolutely hate to see that outcome, not because of PP but because of the industry that is more and more polarised.
Some great minis discontinued, being sold for peanuts on 2nd market etc its not what this IP deserves for sure... Theres been huge mistakes in the past and both these companies seem to have the tendency to project their frustrations upon their clients though.The wording on this announcement was as usual a bit deluded.
I stopped hoping for new Trollbloods done in metal with all those nice details but now, its official - Another part of my collection that will never grow and will remain forever stuck in time.
I was just working up to trying that new "its not everblight but it is" bunch of models. I was a little surprised as they went into 3D print production that they didn't try and at least do what Mantic and Mierce have done and start doing STL sales as well of their models for additional income.
I would love for Warmahordes to get big again. It really was the best set of rules I've seen, and gave GW a run for their money until PP shot themselves in the foot right when GW was smoke-and-mirroring themselves as "new" GW.
Overread wrote: I was just working up to trying that new "its not everblight but it is" bunch of models. I was a little surprised as they went into 3D print production that they didn't try and at least do what Mantic and Mierce have done and start doing STL sales as well of their models for additional income.
From what I understand, the 3d printing was the most cost effective way of producing out of house rather than an actual desire to support the format, hence why no STLs.
Personally, I think this collaboration has a ton of potential IF handled right. Privateer press has some great game systems, but clearly is struggling financially, logistically and has never been the best when it comes to marketing.... SFG can make up for those deficiencies and then some.
And for people mentioning the Guildball situation, I think you need to consider where the company was at that point of time, I personally think it was a financial decision more than anything else.... this was back when they first had a huge investor come in and take the reigns, investors like that want profit profit profit,, which is what they have been delivering through their Kickstarter campaigns. Guildball was probably barely breaking even...or certainly not making anywhere near what these bombastic kickstarters were and likely felt like wasted manpower to the suits in charge. So it got ruthlessly cut, likely via pressure from above. Right now their situation is very different, millions in the bank and have the ability to take more risks and invest in passion projects that may take longer to yield profits. They have recently began re supporting GB too, with plans to expand on that in the future.
Lets not forget the original group at SFG were all hardcore wargamers, many ex warmachine players themselves, many of which still seem to be there and if you follow them at all, you can see there love for wargames is still very much there.
Not saying this will definitely work out, but there is way too much pessimism surrounding this right now, and honestly I think if PP didn't make this move, that ship sailing solo would have sunk within the next few years, with the space being so competitive right now. Also, there are no other wargaming companies beside GW that have serious money behind them, SFG getting involved in this space gives them more serious competition. Its rather ironic though that one of the co founders of GW (Ian Livingstone), happens to be one of the key figures in SFG, at least he was some years ago, when the initial investment came, I don't know if that's still the case.
rybackstun wrote: As I said in the other, earlier, thread: I wonder if this is because PP just can't handle it any more or if the Mythic Deal really did put them under.
I don't think Mythic really impacted them at all. It obviously killed MonPoc 2.0, but that was already having issues of bloat and the Mythic thing seemed more of a way to keep it going while PP put their focus back on Warmachine.
I'm pretty sure its entirely about distribution. It's been impossible to get PP products in stores for years now. For a whole bunch of reasons both industry driven and of PPs own making, their products have effectively been direct order only for most of Mk3. They've needed a distribution partner for quite a while, which I suspect is how Asmodee ended up with most of their staff and MCP. I'm not sure if they went with SFG out of desperation or the promise of more autonomy, but it seems like that's the driving force of this deal.
The big question is whether SFG is just looking to pad their portfolio to get bought out. No clue who they could sell to at this point, but there's a bit of brand fluffing going on there in general.
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Overread wrote: I was just working up to trying that new "its not everblight but it is" bunch of models. I was a little surprised as they went into 3D print production that they didn't try and at least do what Mantic and Mierce have done and start doing STL sales as well of their models for additional income.
Fingers crossed something good comes of this
STL sales can support a single artist or two, but not a company. There's a reason you don't see STL lines with an actual game behind them.
LunarSol wrote: I'm not sure what PP thinks they're focusing on now. They sold.... from what I can see everything except MonPoc?
I would imagine no one wants to touch MonPoc right now until the Mythic Kickstarter fiasco reaches some sort of resolution, one way or another.
Yeah- if PP wants to divest entirely, the logical people to sell to would be Mythic- but Mythic can't afford to pay anyone for rights right now.
At best, they could sell Monpoc to someone willing to finish the Kickstarter fulfillment for them (the way Mythic sold some of their projects to CMON).
Privateer Press also have Level7, but I don't know if that's worth very much.
A little behind the curtain, i have known for a while now the original owners of WM/H at PP were trying to sell and get out of the industry. as a fan of the game with a sizable MKIII army we have an active group that still plays MK III ( i do not care for the MKIV rules) . the problem for us is that we have to many games the group plays so we don't play it very often. the current hot games are classic battle tech and MCP. the rest of the time we are usually bouncing between infinity, old hammer, DUST, heavy gear etc....
All I know is that SFG seem to be doing AMA's on various channels about this. FB, Reddit etc. That's more comms to the wider community (other than the immediate fan base) that PP has done since end of MK3... In addition is the most iv seen PP and WM/H mentioned on general wargaming news. General tone is "SFG buys failing PP". Everyone is seeing this as a rescue bid/move.
I'll watch with interest. I loved WM/H bit I walked away due to PP as a company and the community it fostered in many places.
I think in the short-medium term it will be good for the IP, because whenever a discussion around Warmahordes comes up it inevitably turns to people who bought into it during 2015-2017 and got burnt by everyone running back to GW at the first sign of trouble.
"Feth PP for messing up with MkIII and everything else!" is a pretty damning statement you see all too often, anywhere that isn't a committed PP fan space. Having a different company on the label is probably going to salve some of that wound, though probably not to the extent that people who dipped their toe out of the GW circle for the first time and got burnt will likely give it another chance (and it's still my belief we're feeling the repercussions of that today).
In the longterm I have little faith Steamforge will do much to reverse the IP's fortunes. I mean this is the company who already binnned off Guildball so they could chase the lucrative IP Kickstarter bandwagon.
rybackstun wrote: As I said in the other, earlier, thread: I wonder if this is because PP just can't handle it any more or if the Mythic Deal really did put them under.
I'd wager as Monster Apoc was about their best thing game wise (Minicrate also did really well though I've not heard how good its doing now); and with that whole disaster its been not just a huge problem but also a huge pause on really being able to capitalise on what that campaign should have brought them. IT should have fullfilled and then PP Would have been able to market to a huge happy Monster Apoc fanbase with more stuff
I have Gatormen, Trollbloods and Legion of Everblight armies. Am I right in thinking PP did an End Times and my armies don't really exist in the same form any more?
Da Boss wrote: I have Gatormen, Trollbloods and Legion of Everblight armies. Am I right in thinking PP did an End Times and my armies don't really exist in the same form any more?
They exist as their themes in Mk4, but there's changes to unit sizes and stuff. So for example, Gatormen are still very much a Gatormen army with those units and Warlocks and beasts, but the Gatorman unit itself is locked to 3 mans. Anything that was a 10 man is capped to 5 now.
Trollbloods got broken up into their Storm of the North army with Northkin stuff and a United Kriels army with a lot of their gunline units as the focus. Legion was split into an army of the Ogruns and Grotesque stuff and an army of Blighted Nyss. There's an Unlimited option for every faction that has rules for everything they've had in the past all in one, but its not considered part of the "standard" army range.
Da Boss wrote: I have Gatormen, Trollbloods and Legion of Everblight armies. Am I right in thinking PP did an End Times and my armies don't really exist in the same form any more?
PP Basically did an AoS but kept some legacy rules for the old armies around.
They then have the issue that they finally said that Warmachine and Hordes would be the same (one system); but then focused on Warmachine factions at the start and haven't really re-released any of the Hordes ones at all. So yeah Hordes fans kind of got shafted for legacy armies. There IS a Trollbloods and Everblight styled new set of armies out there. So those themes and concepts and model styles are not dead; just the armies and old models.
I get it and I don't get it. Same as how PP at launch of MKIV didn't want to do cheap starter sets but £100 sets as their main products and seemed to only come around to cheaper sets later.
There are certainly some choices they've made that feel like one step forward two back.
At the same time I feel like they would have brought the classic armies back as new forms with new updated models and so forth; its just a project a LOT of years in the making to get there which requires all these early steps to grow right and the market to stay stable to make it work long enough to get there.
Overread wrote: Same as how PP at launch of MKIV didn't want to do cheap starter sets but £100 sets as their main products and seemed to only come around to cheaper sets later.
PP was really focused on how their out of control SKU bloat killed them with distribution once warehousing kind of stopped being a thing. Honestly, the new army sets are pretty great, fairly equitable with Combat Patrol and give you a ton of game. The real issue is just that they really should have also seen the value in those preview battle boxes right away and made them a product as well rather than turning them into 3 SKUs which....was kind of the whole thing they were trying to avoid....?
There's a balance and I think the issue is PP's plan at launch was few SKUs at high price, which works warehouse and distribution wise; but hits the roadblock that a lot of people won't spend that much on a new game just for the models (no glue, paints or anything).
They absolutely needed the cheaper sets even if it bloated the SKU a bit, because they need to get fresh blood in; and after a few years and with the re-set they did new-blood is also former customers not just totally fresh ones.
I think if they'd gone live with them and built up toward the big expensive sets it would have done their marketing a lot better. Sure its more units and SKU, but its sets people can afford to take a punt on. Old customers with big armies that are defunct (in all but name); new customers totally new to PP and gaming - something affordable to get in.
Then scale back to big expensive sets once you've got a vibrant market.
Themes were one of the things that drove me away from the game, if they still work the way they used to (bonus models and extra rules for having specific combos of troops).
It's not surprising that they focused on Warmachine, they pretty much always have. I just like the Hordes models and rules better (risk management is more fun than resource management).
I think they had a problem with bloat due to their expansion model. Constant addition of new units to the game. It was really nice in a way - if you had a unit, you could use it and it never got retired or changed in a way that made you have to buy it again. But that meant new sales were coming from new units, which meant stocking the game became a real challenge.
It's cool that "mix it all together" still exists in the rules though.
It's crazy that they moved away from battleboxes, those were awesome for introducing people to the game. I had lots of buddies pick one up to try it out. And battlebox games were a lot of fun.
Da Boss wrote: Themes were one of the things that drove me away from the game, if they still work the way they used to (bonus models and extra rules for having specific combos of troops).
They do not. Themes are just about unit restrictions in MkIV.
Ok so it looks like there’s 2 deals here. The first is PP selling the Crown Jewels of their company. Normally this is the end of it, the new company then go off and decide how to move on with their newly acquired IP/asset. But here there’s a 2nd deal for PP to be involved still in some way, hence the “partnership” chat. That partnership will have a time scale set to it obviously (you don’t buy an asset then hamstring yourself to another company to develop it long term) and this 2nd deal must have been a requirement by PP for the 1st deal to happen - as there’s not really any benefit for SFG here that i can see. It’s not like PP have a great reputation they’re taking advantage of lol. The announcement makes it clear they’re locked into mk4 for the foreseeable so SFG are lacking the ability to launch a new SFG edition, a clean slate so to speak. They’re stuck with the decisions/mistakes already made. Then to jump back into the arena of competing directly against GW (who’ve already sent them packing out of the wargame market into KS board game land once before) without the flexibility to redevelop Warmachine seems like a tall order.
Longer term it gives SFG an IP asset that’s not entirely been screwed over yet, so as long as they don’t go blaming players for playing their game too well or somesuch and trash it entirely, it could be a benefit for the company. I don’t see this being a game changer tho.
What is absolutely clear is that PP is done for in the medium term. They now own very little of note, and what they have is not worth anything. I expect this “partnership” to last maybe 3 years before PP shut up shop for good.
Yes that could be entirely transparent and just the psoting of somone genuinely excited about the game, but after Guildball it's hard not to read more into it.
Yes that could be entirely transparent and just the psoting of somone genuinely excited about the game, but after Guildball it's hard not to read more into it.
So, I say hubris as someone who's honestly been a big fan of Steamforged... just in spite of the arrogance the company has always swaggered. Their games are good, but their owners have always spoke of them as perfect; immune to all the mistakes "the other guys" make. Honestly, I didn't even take offense at the way they killed Guild Ball, because that's just the way they've always acted about their designs, even when talking about the endless ways they need to change them. I legitimately like their work, but long term support has never been one of their strong suits and they have a perfectionist tendency to need to constantly tweak things and then get bored and give up when perfection isn't as easy as it seems. And I stress, I say this as someone who's a big fan of their games.
I am glad this is at least happeneing in the age of 3D prints. One of the things that kinda killed GB me before they killed GB was the switch from models with a great sense of fluid motion to PVC sculpts that were mostly in flat footed poses. That's really killed a lot my enthusiasm for their more recent games, even if I'm a big fan of the games themselves.
Da Boss wrote: I have Gatormen, Trollbloods and Legion of Everblight armies. Am I right in thinking PP did an End Times and my armies don't really exist in the same form any more?
Pretty much. i understand they had loads of redundant models that led to sku bloat. but the legacy armies were being held to 2 casters (4 for mercs) and a handful of old units. with battle engines and colossals being put on the back burner. retribution is just gone, replaced by vampire elves. they are trying to push new product and have moved the setting forwards. While i think the 3d printing direction was the right way to go, not only do i dislike what they did with the rules(no templates, no facings etc...), the aesthetic is no longer black powder/steam tech (hell cygnar has rail guns). So it is more gathering storm/8th ed 40K than WHFB end times.
I have a huge khador army i built in MK III and happily i still have enough local players who play MKIII to use it. i'm not even averse to people breaking out the MKII cards and units. although when the switch was announced i went and downloaded all the MKIII cards for every faction just in case i need them.
aphyon wrote: While i think the 3d printing direction was the right way to go, not only do i dislike what they did with the rules(no templates, no facings etc...), the aesthetic is no longer black powder/steam tech (hell cygnar has rail guns).
This is my thought too. I'm not a competitive player by any means, but when they started to streamline the rules and put in pre-measuring it took out the heart of the game. I could handle 2rd ed, but only if I couldn't find someone to play 2nd with. 40k already has the 40k crowd. No point trying to re-create what GW is already providing at the expense of your existing players.
I'd wager as Monster Apoc was about their best thing game wise (Minicrate also did really well though I've not heard how good its doing now); and with that whole disaster its been not just a huge problem but also a huge pause on really being able to capitalise on what that campaign should have brought them. IT should have fullfilled and then PP Would have been able to market to a huge happy Monster Apoc fanbase with more stuff
If I had a nickel every time PP ran MonPoc into the ground I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot but weird that it happened twice.
aphyon wrote: While i think the 3d printing direction was the right way to go, not only do i dislike what they did with the rules(no templates, no facings etc...), the aesthetic is no longer black powder/steam tech (hell cygnar has rail guns).
This is my thought too. I'm not a competitive player by any means, but when they started to streamline the rules and put in pre-measuring it took out the heart of the game. I could handle 2rd ed, but only if I couldn't find someone to play 2nd with. 40k already has the 40k crowd. No point trying to re-create what GW is already providing at the expense of your existing players.
Yeah the feel of MK IV is the streamlined simplified version of the game. it doesn't feel like WM/H to me. i also love the old steam punk look of the game. i felt the same about modern 40K so my group went back to playing 5th ed. at least with battle tech the core rules mechanics have remained pretty much unchanged for over 30 years. variety comes in the tomes of official "optional" rules you and your group can choose to use or not to use in any combination. couple that with being able to play any era, hex terrain, 3d terrain or alpha strike if you want something simpler for bigger games. you don't have to re-do the game rules every 3 years to keep it fresh.
LunarSol wrote: There's a reason you don't see STL lines with an actual game behind them.
Blood Fields. Full Spectrum Dominance.
Their games are good, but their owners have always spoke of them as perfect
I don't have a lot of experience with SFG, but those boardgames I am familiar with I wouldn't even call "good", truth be told, not even mediocre, but outright badly written.
Their games are good, but their owners have always spoke of them as perfect
I don't have a lot of experience with SFG, but those boardgames I am familiar with I wouldn't even call "good", truth be told, not even mediocre, but outright badly written.
I think you’ll find that they were perfect, it is you as the customer that is the problem. 😂
Oh, I wish the game was as streamlined as advertised. The amount of exceptions, corner cases, unintuitive interactions and clarifications just for unit movement ( which was supposed to be simplified) takes as much space as rules for some full board games.
I get mail notifications from the current PP forum and 90% of topics seem to be rules questions...
Their games are good, but their owners have always spoke of them as perfect
I don't have a lot of experience with SFG, but those boardgames I am familiar with I wouldn't even call "good", truth be told, not even mediocre, but outright badly written.
I think you’ll find that they were perfect, it is you as the customer that is the problem. 😂
Lets see, as I own a lot of them:
Dark Souls: Great miniatures, awful game play. The reboot fixed a lot of the issues, but it feels like trying to make lemonade with eggplants.
Horizon Zero Dawn: Great miniatures, boring gameplay. I just wish the rules were as good as the miniatures.
Monster Hunter World: This is a win. I love the miniatures, and the gameplay. A lot.
Bardsung: Great miniatures (I sense a theme), really good gameplay but does NOT scale well for later campaigns. I do like this game.
Resident Evil 2 (played, don't own): Again with the good miniatures, and the derivative rules. Just not fun.
Godtear: I wanted to like this game. But I did not.
Guildball: THIS WAS THEIR BEST GAME. Time will tell if the reboot is justified. Cautiously optimistic.
I am looking forward to my Rivet Wars KS (I already have all of the previous) and am also cautiously optimistic about this too. But is has a solid base.
Sad you missed out on Devil May Cry. I feel like that's the best of their Capcom board games, though the boss battles are hugely disappointing compared to what they accomplished with Dark Souls.
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Cyel wrote: Oh, I wish the game was as streamlined as advertised. The amount of exceptions, corner cases, unintuitive interactions and clarifications just for unit movement ( which was supposed to be simplified) takes as much space as rules for some full board games.
I get mail notifications from the current PP forum and 90% of topics seem to be rules questions...
It's streamlined in play but reuses too much Mk3 rules to be streamlined in text. The actual experience of playing the game is significantly snappier, but the core rulebook could be cleaned up significantly.
LunarSol wrote: Sad you missed out on Devil May Cry. I feel like that's the best of their Capcom board games, though the boss battles are hugely disappointing compared to what they accomplished with Dark Souls.
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Cyel wrote: Oh, I wish the game was as streamlined as advertised. The amount of exceptions, corner cases, unintuitive interactions and clarifications just for unit movement ( which was supposed to be simplified) takes as much space as rules for some full board games.
I get mail notifications from the current PP forum and 90% of topics seem to be rules questions...
It's streamlined in play but reuses too much Mk3 rules to be streamlined in text. The actual experience of playing the game is significantly snappier, but the core rulebook could be cleaned up significantly.
I have a couple of friends who own it, but I don't think they have played it yet.
aphyon wrote: the aesthetic is no longer black powder/steam tech (hell cygnar has rail guns).
A huge part of this is the heavy NMM pain schemes they went with for the studio models. The game looks far more familiar in person with models painted with less high contrast color schemes and aggressive highlights. Orgoth being the most notable in that regard, looking far better with simple metallics. It's also pretty clear that they've pulled back from that a bit. Almost every release outside the first wave has added more in line with the old aesthetic. Orgoth getting monstrosities and doom reiver blades, Cygnar going a little more (Nikola) Tesla and the newer factions in general leaning away from that overly shiny look that got pushed in the first wave of releases.
The painting really did change quite a bit. I was especially surprised that they started having their studio painter do NMM since they'd been pretty against it for quite some time.
I do feel that after they started doing Riot Quest and Mini Crate stuff, they kind of adopted that over the top style to Warmachine/Hordes minis.
I don't feel like the new minis come from a different setting (and I am rather fond of the Pirate Trollbloods)
aphyon wrote: the aesthetic is no longer black powder/steam tech (hell cygnar has rail guns).
A huge part of this is the heavy NMM pain schemes they went with for the studio models. The game looks far more familiar in person with models painted with less high contrast color schemes and aggressive highlights. Orgoth being the most notable in that regard, looking far better with simple metallics. It's also pretty clear that they've pulled back from that a bit. Almost every release outside the first wave has added more in line with the old aesthetic. Orgoth getting monstrosities and doom reiver blades, Cygnar going a little more (Nikola) Tesla and the newer factions in general leaning away from that overly shiny look that got pushed in the first wave of releases.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the paint jobs. the represented tech level is completely different.
These are the same named models-man o war suppressor tank solo
the first one is steam tech with pepperbox black powder cannons.
the second one is the new MKIV-it looks more at home in infinity with belt fed mini-guns-
A cygnar example- both are the "sharp shooter" model.
bbb wrote: Wow! That is a glaringly sharp contrast in styles.
It's not as much as you'd think, especially since the chosen examples for Cygnar are two wildly different factions.
The Trenchers were an aesthetic that's about to be coming back with the Gravediggers Army, the Sharpshooter model shown there is from the army associated with the more technologically inclined Storm Knight stuff.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the paint jobs. the represented tech level is completely different.
These are the same named models-man o war suppressor tank solo
the first one is steam tech with pepperbox black powder cannons.
the second one is the new MKIV-it looks more at home in infinity with belt fed mini-guns-
A cygnar example- both are the "sharp shooter" model.
One is not like the other.
Cygnar had mini guns like that since the start of Mk2.
And the Storm tech line has always been more high tech than the trencher line. At least compare the new Storm Sharpshooter to the old Storm Gunner he's replacing:
Da Boss wrote: Aesthetics are always gonna be subjective, but I do see a style difference between the old and new models.
There's absolutely a modernization to the newer armies. There's about a decade timeskip between Mk3 and Mk4 and some of that is entirely intentional. It's just not as extreme as people make it out to be; particularly when you see the models on the table.
I think they look like they're part of the same world, for sure. And I could tell the Jack was Khador from lots of the details. But I can see why the Cygnar model was chosen, it looks properly Sci Fi to me.
Da Boss wrote: I think they look like they're part of the same world, for sure. And I could tell the Jack was Khador from lots of the details. But I can see why the Cygnar model was chosen, it looks properly Sci Fi to me.
Yeah, its easily the most over the top of the line and I thought they went a little far with Storm Legion myself, particularly with glowy bits in the armor. Part of the whiplash definitely comes from Cygnar's Storm tech not being particularly competitive in the past though. You weren't likely to see this style on the table very often and then they pushed it to the forefront with the new edition.
And this is the problem SFG has - the purchase would have been the perfect time to roll back the aesthetic to actual steampunk rather than this rubbish they have in mk4. But they’ve hamstrung themselves to this “partnership” and now have to lie in the bed that PP have already made, that’s already been released to a resounding “meh”.
SFG rose to prominence on the back of Guild Ball, a skirmish game that was sort of combined football/soccer with mafia knifefights that blew up in popularity (and for good reason. It was easy to get into, had a good depth of rules depending on which Guild you played as, and had an ongoing story that didn't involve world-changing events. It had a very enthusiastic community). They used this popularity to pivot to a series of mostly very mediocre (some downright poor) but extremely popular licensed boardgames. Their next "big" game was Godtear, which I think they hoped would take off like Guild Ball but never did. They then decided to abandon Guild Ball, blaming their playerbase in the process.
I think they've continued to chug along thanks to their boardgame releases since then. They've also re-released Guild Ball, realizing they can probably milk some more cash out of the community who kept it alive and new players who weren't burnt in the first place.
A lot of licensed Kickstarter boardgames such as Resident Evil, Resident Evil 2, Resident Evil 3, Horizon Zero Dawn, Horizon Forbidden West, Monster Hunter, Elden Ring, Dark Souls, Devil May Cry.
MaxT wrote: And this is the problem SFG has - the purchase would have been the perfect time to roll back the aesthetic to actual steampunk rather than this rubbish they have in mk4. But they’ve hamstrung themselves to this “partnership” and now have to lie in the bed that PP have already made, that’s already been released to a resounding “meh”.
Actually I don't agree with that. I think if they are going to keep going then I'd stick with MKIV. It's too soon for a MKV and way too soon to start re-doing models that they are already releasing.
Warmachaine/Hordes at least needs some stability to have a change to stabilize its current market and grow.
Now perhaps the partnership might allow them to bring back classic armies for sale or push forward releasing new reimaginings of older factions that don't yet have an army or which can be subfactions of current ones that embody classic design elements. Ergo there are ways to do it without rocking the boat too much.
The Resounding "Meh" to worry situation is valid. It's a shame they couldn't time the news to some big release event or something loud they could talk about in public to really energise people; but it might also be that PP needed this partnership quick to prevent total collapse or dwindling resources. So it might be there just wasn't time to really build up for some big "hey we joined up and look at this cool stuff we are doing"
There's a new PP kickstarter due to launch by the end of the month 'The Iron Kingdoms RPG Kickstarter for Strangelight Workshop' which Steamforged seems to be planning to carry on with
the last RPG book pulled in just under $250,000 be interesting to see if the advertise it to all their previous backers as well as PPs
Now perhaps the partnership might allow them to bring back classic armies for sale or push forward releasing new reimaginings of older factions that don't yet have an army or which can be subfactions of current ones that embody classic design elements. Ergo there are ways to do it without rocking the boat too much.
Bringing back old armies really isn't an option. The vast majority of the line was either PVC kits that they don't have the molds for anymore or metals that aren't a realistic medium anymore. Basically, everything would need a degree of resculpting on some level, which is effectively what a lot of the Mk4 armies are accomplishing while streamlining a lot of the bloat and implementing the rather fantastic modular jack and beast designs.
They're definitely looking to bring back classic aesthetics though. Cryx is a very similar to its old style and driven heavily by popular demand. Trenchers are another classic return and its very likely Gun Mages will show up shortly along with it. The second Khador army plans look to be where we're going to see something similar to either Circle or Grymkin. It's just going to take time.
TalonZahn wrote: Modular Jacks was a great idea and they even have magnet packs in the Starter Army Boxes.
I'm surprised GW haven't seen this, added magnets and instructions, then raise the prices 30%, lol
I believe PP had to stop putting magnets in the packs at some stage. I seem to recall some shipping restrictions came into play that complicated international shipments and might have raised shipping prices domestically?
But its only a vague recollection that something like that happened.
GW on the other hand would rather you buy two modular kits and glued them together. They've been very sparring with magnets - in fact I think the only models they've ever done with them in mind were the big titans for AT. Which as a specialist game appears to get a tiny bit more leeway in such matters compared to the big giants like 40K and AoS
I believe PP had to stop putting magnets in the packs at some stage. I seem to recall some shipping restrictions came into play that complicated international shipments and might have raised shipping prices domestically?
But its only a vague recollection that something like that happened.
Shipping loose magnets has problems in certain states and countries so they had to take them out of the boxes themselves and make the magnet packs a separate product that is offered as a free bonus with the purchase of the army boxes. Most stores I've seen seem to understand and offer the same deal.
The current aesthetic definitely doesn't quite feel "right" to me, and I loved the steampunk/magipunk style but it's looking a little too futuristic, even if like Cygnar always had lighting weapons. I can't put my finger on it.
I really miss Mk2 WM/H, even Mk3 before GW killed it overnight. I regret not getting into it as hardcore as I could have back then. My current LGS has some stuff from MK2/3 on the shelves in a corner, just gathering dust, and I get a pang of sadness every time I look at it because it was an amazing game.
It still is a great game, although i do not play it as often as i would like we still get some MKIII games in from time to time. and i have it with me every weekend just in case. all of it....
Spoiler:
Like anything else not chasing the current meta/FOMO you just have to find people who will play it with you.
TalonZahn wrote: Modular Jacks was a great idea and they even have magnet packs in the Starter Army Boxes.
I'm surprised GW haven't seen this, added magnets and instructions, then raise the prices 30%, lol
I believe PP had to stop putting magnets in the packs at some stage. I seem to recall some shipping restrictions came into play that complicated international shipments and might have raised shipping prices domestically?
But its only a vague recollection that something like that happened.
GW on the other hand would rather you buy two modular kits and glued them together. They've been very sparring with magnets - in fact I think the only models they've ever done with them in mind were the big titans for AT. Which as a specialist game appears to get a tiny bit more leeway in such matters compared to the big giants like 40K and AoS
The HH dreadnoughts have holes for magnets so that you can swap weapons. I think that the SoS gunship has them for the prow options as well. Not done across the range by any means, but useful where they have done it.
TalonZahn wrote: Modular Jacks was a great idea and they even have magnet packs in the Starter Army Boxes.
I'm surprised GW haven't seen this, added magnets and instructions, then raise the prices 30%, lol
I believe PP had to stop putting magnets in the packs at some stage. I seem to recall some shipping restrictions came into play that complicated international shipments and might have raised shipping prices domestically?
But its only a vague recollection that something like that happened.
GW on the other hand would rather you buy two modular kits and glued them together. They've been very sparring with magnets - in fact I think the only models they've ever done with them in mind were the big titans for AT. Which as a specialist game appears to get a tiny bit more leeway in such matters compared to the big giants like 40K and AoS
I think Tom Hibbard on his first Painting Phase interview went a bit into this, GW had been looking at magnets for quite a while but including rare earth magnets in the kits (or selling them in the stores) would have had a bunch a strange knock on effects about whether the model kits could be classed as "toys" or not, which then added a lot of other complications as far as liability, taxes, shipping or acceptable age ranges for customers. In the end they decided it wasn't viable for the main ranges.
The resin kits from Forgeworld are not sold as toys, but "expert modeller's kits" so they have a bit more leeway.
Overread wrote: I believe PP had to stop putting magnets in the packs at some stage. I seem to recall some shipping restrictions came into play that complicated international shipments and might have raised shipping prices domestically? But its only a vague recollection that something like that happened.
Our warjacks have been designed for customizable loadouts by creating sockets in the arms, heads, and bodies of the warjacks where small magnets can be easily glued. Our original intention was that these magnets would be included in all starter and warjack model kits. However, we have recently learned that in many countries outside of the United States, there are consumer protection laws that prohibit the inclusion of small, high-powered magnets in toys and model kits because of the dangers the magnets pose to small children in the event they are swallowed. In compliance with these laws and out of an abundance of caution, we will not be including the magnets in the kits but will instead offer them as a separate, paired product, with the magnets contained in child-resistant bottles for an increased measure of safety.
I'd be curious as to know if magnets in boxes would have any negative interactions with the automated picking and packing hardware that gw now use in the warehouses. Might be a factor in not including them.
No dog in the Who-owns-warmachine fight, but I'd never seen this picture before and I'm curious. Is this the sort of thing that the fan base likes? I put 6 first and second version Khador Warjacks with CCW in my KoW army as trolls and I love them, but this 40k-ish Dread with a heavy bolter just looks sad to me.
I'm not sure where the 40k comparison comes in. The main difference I've noticed between the new and old Warjacks is they're slightly less top heavy with better leg proportions. As for weaponry, that's up to the list. This is a character Dire Wolf add on that's upcoming, but whether you have a big gun or a big mace is a list building choice.
He is talking about the aesthetic again, it looks to modern to be warmachine. even Cygnars most advanced lightning tech looked like a mix of medieval weapons with magical gizmos attached to fit the setting. aside from convergence and a bit of retribution who had the most advanced tech most of the setting has that old world look and feel that MK IV has moved away from.
the generic heavy warjack of the past-
compared to the picture he posted above where he calls the gun arm a pseudo heavy bolter.
I mean.... I guess? I was more focused on the dreadnought comparison. Heavy boters aren't exactly high tech and the Iron Kingdoms is full of high caliber cannons. To me, its quite similar to other weapons in the game. A little more modern, but mostly just sharper details than 15 year old PVC.
I think that its subtle but you can certainly see a shift in the style taking place and its more "advanced" refined slick or otherwise just feels that bit more modern and just a little less archaic steampunk.
I think the leg change is a welcome one honestly; some of the old jacks look almost comical with their tiny legs
From someone that has been Warmachine Curious for a while now, the new aesthetic is great. I'm reminded of the shift in style Corvus Belli introduced with Infinity.
Well I guess that's my answer then. Fans of the game like the newer aesthetic.
That would help explain how I was able to acquire a bunch of old Jacks (which I much prefer the look of) for $5-10 bucks each.
@Aphyon
That's exactly what I was thinking. I'm old enough to remember when Warmachine came out. I knew from the start the game wasn't for me but the setting and many of the figures (Especially Khador) always appealed. I'm sure WM fans aren't wild about the comparison but, at the time, nothing in the tech level was much beyond what you might see in a WHFB Dwarf army. Now it looks it's headed toward 40k and IMHO, that's a weird choice.
For me the new direction is a plus and I'd be more willing to invest in the system if we see more like this, at reasonable costs and easy enough to get hold of!
Eilif wrote:Well I guess that's my answer then. Fans of the game like the newer aesthetic.
That would help explain how I was able to acquire a bunch of old Jacks (which I much prefer the look of) for $5-10 bucks each.
@Aphyon
That's exactly what I was thinking. I'm old enough to remember when Warmachine came out. I knew from the start the game wasn't for me but the setting and many of the figures (Especially Khador) always appealed. I'm sure WM fans aren't wild about the comparison but, at the time, nothing in the tech level was much beyond what you might see in a WHFB Dwarf army. Now it looks it's headed toward 40k and IMHO, that's a weird choice.
i don't really know how much the new look appeals to the general fan base, it doesn't appeal to me because i play so many different games i like the uniqueness of the setting it was created in. i think you are finding them so cheap because of the fact the game is dead in most places not that players want the new jacks. unfortunately many of the players drawn to the game early on were hardcore tournament players who were generally toxic to the community and drawing in new players.
Tabletop_Magpie wrote:I certainly appreciate your concerns.
For me the new direction is a plus and I'd be more willing to invest in the system if we see more like this, at reasonable costs and easy enough to get hold of!
While the high tech looks bugs me a bit considering the setting. what annoys me more than anything else is the change to the rules that mirrors 8th ed 40Ks attempt to dumb down the game mechanics. which is why i still play MKIII core rules. although i leave the worst parts out like steam roller tournament rules and theme armies that give players free units/rules if they take specific models much akin to 7th ed 40K formations.
Like oldhammer i want to bring the minis i want to play with and still have a fun game. which i can do in 5th ed 40k and MK III warmachine because the game mechanics make it possible.
I think one thing with the new style is that its happening for all factions at once without a gentle lean in of advancing some models and then others; its a huge restart button and that means even if they'd kept all the original styles; there'd still feel like a jarring jolt of changes unless they left everything identical as it was before.
MK2 was indeed the golden age. We could still get back to that but it needs PP to have a steady hand (and now SFG) and some years of just steady growth without issues. No big dramas and just let the game grow organically along with some marketing pushes.
Honestly they need exactly what Dystopain Wars is getting now - steady releases; steady growth and continual attention and positive elements
Because I bet alongside "Oh gods this boxed set costs a lot" a lot of old fans are being like us - sitting on the fence waiting for things to look stable and settled and like PP will be around in 5-10 years time and the game will too.
Mk. III felt like such a huge downgrade, with the Mk. III themes being incredibly unenjoyable for me.
Oddly I felt that rules wise, Mk3 was better than Mk2. Themes were a great idea, just really badly implemented as PP couldn't balance them or any of the new theme models, gave up and just outsourced their QA and play test to the open community via CID.
Mk3 let me play with Jacks finally, which is all I really wanted. I'd rather play it over Mk2 though the Mk2 era was certainly more enjoyable because the community was so fun. Honestly though, I feel like people have a lot of rose colored glasses when it comes to the actual experience of the actual game in Mk2. I can't help but feel the change just gave people an opportunity to hop off a treadmill they were already tired of running.
I think it might have been different for WM players, due to the focus mechanic intrinsically not being as supportive of jacks as fury was of beasts, but as a mainly Hordes player I loved it.
Don't think I ever had a game I didn't enjoy, honestly! And I played in tournaments and everything.
What I loved the most about it was, I really felt for the first time in ages that I could just grab the models I liked the look of and make a force that worked out of them because I knew how they worked and the game rewarded me for using them properly. It did help to use the right Warlock, but swapping a Warlock in our out was not such a huge thing that you couldn't use pretty much exactly the same models.
It honestly changed how I approached the hobby, because while I loved some of the Troll sculpts, others I thought were really poor. So I only bought the ones I liked, and was able to make it all work on the table. And I was looking at it thinking "Why the hell doesn't Warhammer work like this?!?" and from then on I've never bought an ugly model for an in game benefit.
That's why MK3 gave me such harsh whiplash, because suddenly it was "take THESE exact minis with THIS exact warlock or you are heavily disadvantaged". Yuck!
I think in MK2, esp by the end, the Focus mechanic was feeling its age as was the system. The game was honestly trying to be Skirmish and Wargame all at once and kind of tripping over itself.
You had people wanting more models on the table because armies were far more diverse and people had more models to use; but hte more you added the harder having a single lynchpin of your hero became; esp with the focus mechanic which also meant Warmachine players were often heavily restricted on how many Warjacks they could take whilst Hordes players could just load up with far fewer limits.
Because lets face it the Warjacks and Warbeasts were BIG show attention parts of the game.
My one big gripe with Mk3 as a whole was that they narrowed the focus of armies so much with themes, but didn't shrink the size of games. I had a lot of bloat that could cover it, but it really made the tail end of mk2 problem of only playing full sized armies much worse by requiring more FA.
That's actually an issue I feel Mk4 solved, but the community wasn't keen to follow and PP hasn't really stuck to it. 50 point games in Mk4 honestly feel pretty good, though 75 is where it feels like armies can have more varied strategies and my preferred size. 100 just feels bloated again, but a bloat that most players have rushed back to. I really feel like they need to adjust FA down for each game size for it to really work.
Da Boss wrote: Mk2 was peak for me, and I still have all my books. If ever I feel like playing again I'll get the Mk2 books out and see what happens.
I do watch what happens, but I'm not that optimistic about the current game. Especially since they did their own "End Times".
Agreed. Mk. II was some of the best times I had playing tabletop games with my buddies.
Mk. III felt like such a huge downgrade, with the Mk. III themes being incredibly unenjoyable for me.
I very much preferred MkII.
You definitely had to approach tournament & friendgroup games much differently.
My friends didn't have the inclination or huge resources to chase the meta, so we used more 'jacks and generally didn't play Infantrymachine.
If I signed up for a tournament, I knew certain matchups weren't going to go my way because I didn't take direct counters to what would likely be there.
I stubbornly took what I wanted, and did my best not to spam units.
Fortunately, after a loss, I was playing the other guys who were there just for the games.
The tryhards usually bailed after they took a loss (another aspect of the WM/H player base I disliked)
The theme lists & their "free models", as well as the CID meta chasers turned me off of Mk3 early.
You couldn't find a true pickup game any more.
Most players seemed to be "testing out" the next CID cycle or practice for the next tournament.
Also the shift to digital & constantly changing cards was a problem.
It really sucked to have cards update between games and only discover it in-game when the card didn't say what you thought it did.
That was an entire edition thing, it wasn't just towards the end. I played the majority of MkII with free Exemplars.
Theme lists existed since the beginning of Mk2, but were caster locked and more often than not, not terribly powerful. As the game grew, PP definitely started pushing themes a bit more, but it also took the community quite a while to unlock their potential so it was easy to feel like they didn't exist early on.
Mk1 had the best gameplay but also the most useless models. Early Mk2 was still pretty great, the balance revision (through a long and systematic public beta test) made up for dumbing down the core rules. Then it just bloated out of being what I was playing it for, with too large armies, too large single models and forced composition and playstyles through theme lists that was basically the same dumb gak as Detachments in 40k 7th.
LunarSol wrote: Mk3 let me play with Jacks finally, which is all I really wanted. I'd rather play it over Mk2 though the Mk2 era was certainly more enjoyable because the community was so fun. Honestly though, I feel like people have a lot of rose colored glasses when it comes to the actual experience of the actual game in Mk2. I can't help but feel the change just gave people an opportunity to hop off a treadmill they were already tired of running.
Oh, I totally agree with you and Sunno. Mk. III was the better base game because warjacks became a main focus again. It was themes that made me feel like Mk. III was a downgrade. Mk. II had its issues, but like you said the community was great at that time.
The endless CID cycles, poorly balanced themes, focus on Steamroller, and poor launch of Mk. III was what really killed it for me.
Actually that makes me wonder - one of the arguments we saw for them taking down the Press Ganger system was legal issues regarding voluntary work and pay (I believe around the time a bunch of MTG judges sued Wizards for pay?).
I wonder if this partnership might release that issue from "PP"?
Whilst there was not one thing that caused the steady decline in Warmachine, I do think that one of the big elements was the shutdown of the PG system. PGs had a vested interest in running, organising and hyping up the game at the local level and I think when that went it was both all too easy for people to not bother and also try out other games and before you know it no one was holding a torch for a few weeks and suddenly everyone moves on.
Tamereth wrote: I always kinda fancied getting some of the trolls from hordes, but have never seen any in stock anywhere in the UK.
If this new deal can sort out distribution and get product back on shelves maybe the game / games have a chance at a comeback.
PP had already stopped production of non-MKIV product(which is a lot of the distribution issues), I don't see Steam Forge bringing them back. Hope you like the new pirate Trollbloods.
Overread wrote: Actually that makes me wonder - one of the arguments we saw for them taking down the Press Ganger system was legal issues regarding voluntary work and pay (I believe around the time a bunch of MTG judges sued Wizards for pay?).
I wonder if this partnership might release that issue from "PP"?
Whilst there was not one thing that caused the steady decline in Warmachine, I do think that one of the big elements was the shutdown of the PG system. PGs had a vested interest in running, organising and hyping up the game at the local level and I think when that went it was both all too easy for people to not bother and also try out other games and before you know it no one was holding a torch for a few weeks and suddenly everyone moves on.
That was a fan speculation but Matt has said many times in interviews they closed it down because the person running it stepped down from that position (as they had been pulling double duty) and basically PP didn't have anyone else to run it (or wanted too). While Matt never went into it's probably because they couldn't afford to have someone just working on Press Gangers as it was implied that it was a massive workload to run.
Probably the big news here is that those models pictured are from a new character model 2 player starter that will be done in HIPs.
It also sounds like HIPS starter sets for more factions in the future too? And even more down the road. That's legitimately exciting.
I've been waiting for PP to get their act together since saaaay 2009? And honestly while I don't know if this is a good move or not - I'm glad to see someone get a chance to save the game because I feel like it's been bungled for a long, long time.
Tamereth wrote: I always kinda fancied getting some of the trolls from hordes, but have never seen any in stock anywhere in the UK.
If this new deal can sort out distribution and get product back on shelves maybe the game / games have a chance at a comeback.
I don't see Steam Forge bringing them back. Hope you like the new pirate Trollbloods.
Trollbloods never really needed to get into the theme thing bandwagon they were already cool on their own. Cant say pirate trolls does anything to me.
Yeah, I loved trollbloods, but was 100% fine with them mostly being traditionalist, more technologically modern, and more radical. Didn't need pirate trolls, definitely didn't need pirate trolls past the evil (and IIRC shinless) pirate trolls, and zero interest in a full seafaring troll culture. I don't know if was that they had no ideas or no restraint when they came up with that subfaction, but what an unconvincing idea and execution.
I've heard good things about Steamforged and I'd enjoy a good excuse to dust off the couple WM armies that have been sitting in a closet, but my only experience with them is their Dark Souls game that I'm almost embarrassed to talk about, the gameplay was so leaden and the environments were lifeless.
1. Strengthening the Supply Chain: Ensuring models (and everything else) are always available without interruption. This means not only a bunch of backend work on production facilities, inventory control, and logistics, but also collaborating with our distribution and retail partners worldwide to get Warmachine into your local gaming stores (FLGS).
2. Expanding the Game's Reach: We want to share this game with as many people as possible. That means implementing a solid marketing strategy to help more gamers discover (or rediscover) the Iron Kingdoms. Engaging with the community is crucial, as is building support through organised play, cool events, and narratives for gamers to enjoy. We want to make sure we’re present at key shows, running demos for everyone and anyone.
I'm timidly hopeful as I love the new aesthetic and would love to see more market competition.
Overread wrote: Actually that makes me wonder - one of the arguments we saw for them taking down the Press Ganger system was legal issues regarding voluntary work and pay (I believe around the time a bunch of MTG judges sued Wizards for pay?).
I wonder if this partnership might release that issue from "PP"?
Whilst there was not one thing that caused the steady decline in Warmachine, I do think that one of the big elements was the shutdown of the PG system. PGs had a vested interest in running, organising and hyping up the game at the local level and I think when that went it was both all too easy for people to not bother and also try out other games and before you know it no one was holding a torch for a few weeks and suddenly everyone moves on.
That was a fan speculation but Matt has said many times in interviews they closed it down because the person running it stepped down from that position (as they had been pulling double duty) and basically PP didn't have anyone else to run it (or wanted too). While Matt never went into it's probably because they couldn't afford to have someone just working on Press Gangers as it was implied that it was a massive workload to run.
It's worth noting that Steamforged took the opportunity to shut down their own volunteer program around the time PP did. I wouldn't expect it to return.
Theophony wrote: Not sure if PP had the rights to do a Legend of the Five Rings game or not. They had some of the figures in their monthly subscription boxes a few years back and I had heard rumors of a rank and file game coming out again (Like Clan Wars). Could that be where the focus is going? I know a few people who would definitely be down for that.
No, they didn't have rights for an L5R minis game. Just the Mini Crate.
Theophony wrote: Not sure if PP had the rights to do a Legend of the Five Rings game or not. They had some of the figures in their monthly subscription boxes a few years back and I had heard rumors of a rank and file game coming out again (Like Clan Wars). Could that be where the focus is going? I know a few people who would definitely be down for that.
No, they didn't have rights for an L5R minis game. Just the Mini Crate.
Which they never finished either. They got to the 3rd mini in 2021 and suddenly just stopped. At least I got my Kachiko before it ended.
Theophony wrote: Not sure if PP had the rights to do a Legend of the Five Rings game or not. They had some of the figures in their monthly subscription boxes a few years back and I had heard rumors of a rank and file game coming out again (Like Clan Wars). Could that be where the focus is going? I know a few people who would definitely be down for that.
No, they didn't have rights for an L5R minis game. Just the Mini Crate.
Which they never finished either. They got to the 3rd mini in 2021 and suddenly just stopped. At least I got my Kachiko before it ended.
Thanks,
I almost hopped into the mystery box deal just for those models. Glad I didn't.
I wonder if the HIPS starter is an Archon job or one of the Wargames Atlantic projects they keep teasing they can announce soon. Pretty happy with all the kits I've gotten from both companies.
I'd never have touched the 3D printed MK4 sets, but hard plastic starter has me intrigued for the first time since MK4 was announced.
Theophony wrote: Not sure if PP had the rights to do a Legend of the Five Rings game or not. They had some of the figures in their monthly subscription boxes a few years back and I had heard rumors of a rank and file game coming out again (Like Clan Wars). Could that be where the focus is going? I know a few people who would definitely be down for that.
No, they didn't have rights for an L5R minis game. Just the Mini Crate.
Which they never finished either. They got to the 3rd mini in 2021 and suddenly just stopped. At least I got my Kachiko before it ended.
They did stop, yeah, but certainly not after 3... I have like... 20?
Kalamadea wrote: I wonder if the HIPS starter is an Archon job or one of the Wargames Atlantic projects they keep teasing they can announce soon. Pretty happy with all the kits I've gotten from both companies.
I'd never have touched the 3D printed MK4 sets, but hard plastic starter has me intrigued for the first time since MK4 was announced.
Hard plastic would definitely be preferable to 3D prints, but unless it also rolls back the aesthetic, it's still stuck with the bigger problem with Mk4 minis...
I'd love to be interested in Warmachine again, but the current designs do nothing for me.
Tamereth wrote: I always kinda fancied getting some of the trolls from hordes, but have never seen any in stock anywhere in the UK.
If this new deal can sort out distribution and get product back on shelves maybe the game / games have a chance at a comeback.
I don't see Steam Forge bringing them back. Hope you like the new pirate Trollbloods.
Trollbloods never really needed to get into the theme thing bandwagon they were already cool on their own. Cant say pirate trolls does anything to me.
I always liked the winter stuff, like the ice troll and glacier king. Guess they are just models I will never own, unless steamforge put them back into production someday.
I always liked the winter stuff, like the ice troll and glacier king. Guess they are just models I will never own, unless steamforge put them back into production someday.
Have you checked the second hand market? Everything shows up eventually and if it's old PP chances are good it will be at a significant discount.
I always liked the winter stuff, like the ice troll and glacier king. Guess they are just models I will never own, unless steamforge put them back into production someday.
Have you checked the second hand market? Everything shows up eventually and if it's old PP chances are good it will be at a significant discount.
Yeah i snagged a bunch of stuff in really nice condition from noble knight for decent prices to finish off my MKIII army.
Basically, they removed the $200 entry level and leaned into the Battlebox concept as the primary starter. In its place, they've reshuffled things so the previous Core Starter can still act as a stand alone army or can expand the Battlebox. The Axillary expansion seems to be designed to be the must have purchase that turns either starting point into a full game.
In terms of cost....
Previous:
$200 - Core Army Starter
$130 - Army Expansion
$13 - Solo Caster
$13 - Character Upgrade
$20 - Heavy Body for Upgrade
So mostly a remix rather than a price increase, though it looks like they cut a standard bearer from the starters, which is rather unfortunate and definitely an odd gouge seeing as the prices otherwise are pretty much the same.
NAVARRO wrote: Shame really, I think the new starter in HIPS is quite tempting but all falls a bit flat once you want more and look at the resin Print expansions.
Does it really though?
It's not like they used Siocast. It's resin-resin. The details are there.
I've got the whole Khador line so far minus the colossal. The models are wonderful. Huge jump in detail over the previous metal and HIPS stuff. Zero assembly and minimal cleanup. I've been really happy with everything so far.
LunarSol wrote: Basically, they removed the $200 entry level and leaned into the Battlebox concept as the primary starter. In its place, they've reshuffled things so the previous Core Starter can still act as a stand alone army or can expand the Battlebox. The Axillary expansion seems to be designed to be the must have purchase that turns either starting point into a full game.
In terms of cost....
Previous:
$200 - Core Army Starter
$130 - Army Expansion
$13 - Solo Caster
$13 - Character Upgrade
$20 - Heavy Body for Upgrade
So mostly a remix rather than a price increase, though it looks like they cut a standard bearer from the starters, which is rather unfortunate and definitely an odd gouge seeing as the prices otherwise are pretty much the same.
The new Khador sculpts are very nice although im still not totally sold on the slight change in Jack design. However, that could just be the paint job.
Im trying to find the image but SFG did state on their discord that they will only be producing the nu stuff. So all old non-Mk4 models are now gone. Which is interesting because entire factions like Rhul are in that category.
Sunno wrote: The new Khador sculpts are very nice although im still not totally sold on the slight change in Jack design. However, that could just be the paint job.
Im trying to find the image but SFG did state on their discord that they will only be producing the nu stuff. So all old non-Mk4 models are now gone. Which is interesting because entire factions like Rhul are in that category.
PP had already discontinued production on the old models I believe over a year ago. Anything they had for sale was old stock.
NAVARRO wrote: Shame really, I think the new starter in HIPS is quite tempting but all falls a bit flat once you want more and look at the resin Print expansions.
Does it really though?
It's not like they used Siocast. It's resin-resin. The details are there.
Yeah, I have a bunch of the resin prints and they're really nice models.
Johanxp wrote: Can't find a rulebook to buy in the shop. Where can I find game rules?
Everything is in their app. It's just called Warmachine App and more or less completely free. You can subscribe to get Lore releases and some league event stuff, but there's no paywall for the rules for the game or models.
Johanxp wrote: Can't find a rulebook to buy in the shop. Where can I find game rules?
Everything is in their app. It's just called Warmachine App and more or less completely free. You can subscribe to get Lore releases and some league event stuff, but there's no paywall for the rules for the game or models.
Found thanks! I love those old book made of old paper but hey... that app will work fine.
Johanxp wrote: Can't find a rulebook to buy in the shop. Where can I find game rules?
Everything is in their app. It's just called Warmachine App and more or less completely free. You can subscribe to get Lore releases and some league event stuff, but there's no paywall for the rules for the game or models.
Found thanks! I love those old book made of old paper but hey... that app will work fine.
There was a pdf of the book in their online store for free download, I guess it will return when their store is online again. I printed it out as it is much easier to navigate. Erratas and rules changes are a pain, though.
I'm also all about paper, but for a competition-focused game like Warmachine, an app really makes the most sense. Especially for the ability to tweak unit stats for balance and clarify rules without extensive eratta sheets.
Eilif wrote: I'm also all about paper, but for a competition-focused game like Warmachine, an app really makes the most sense. Especially for the ability to tweak unit stats for balance and clarify rules without extensive eratta sheets.
They used to provide downloadable versions of the cards you could print out. I always preferred that to using the app.
Before any important game like a tournament, it was easy enough to just check the version date of the card versus the app.
I greatly disliked using the app, found it a bit clunky in Mk. III, so always used the physical cards.
Downloaded the app to give it a look, to see what I can make with what Legacy models I still have laying around, I am not seeing a function where I can print the cards off.
Downloaded the app to give it a look, to see what I can make with what Legacy models I still have laying around, I am not seeing a function where I can print the cards off.
It's currently PC version only and gives you a printable PDF with truncated cards for the whole force.
Re: news - apparently the pre-orders are pushed back to the end of the month. I've been following the AMAs and blog posts, and I must say I'm being drawn back in, along with two other home-gamer friends. By all accounts from the discord the resin is still a little inconsistent, and SFG is still working on getting a European distribution service up (and is apparently making progress on NZ/Aus), so we're still wait-and-see.
But they're certainly saying all the right things (for us anyway - 3D terrain, a hobby focus, legit development for smaller game sizes, etc. etc.) so we're continuing to keep an eye out. Just broke out some old minis we had and enjoyed a 30 point game last weekend.
Re: news - apparently the pre-orders are pushed back to the end of the month. I've been following the AMAs and blog posts, and I must say I'm being drawn back in, along with two other home-gamer friends. By all accounts from the discord the resin is still a little inconsistent, and SFG is still working on getting a European distribution service up (and is apparently making progress on NZ/Aus), so we're still wait-and-see.
But they're certainly saying all the right things (for us anyway - 3D terrain, a hobby focus, legit development for smaller game sizes, etc. etc.) so we're continuing to keep an eye out. Just broke out some old minis we had and enjoyed a 30 point game last weekend.
PP is still doing the manufacturing so I'd assume the actual prints won't change at all really. I've been really happy with everything I've bought though and the few bad prints I've gotten have been replaced by PP within a week.
It still weirds me out how much stuff is still being done by Privateer Press now that Steamforged owns the rights to everything.
But it shouldn't be very difficult to find a capable partner to print in Australia and Europe and thereby get rid of all those shipping costs. Much easier than finding a good caster was in the old days (and that wasn't really very hard).
They'll need to vet potential local partners, but this should help out the prices.
Can't speak for you great folk "down under" but the game needs to be on shelves in stores for SFG to make progress with the game again. What's been going on with the community seems positive but im not sure if its reached people outside the bubble and store owners who probably dumped PP product, fire sale it years ago and haven't looked back.
Warmachine Wednesday had a nice surprise. Caine, Gunmages, and character warjack facing off with what looks like Kommandos, the new Kapitain Vilkul and a character warjack.
Assuming Dysartes is referring to the box that Odinsgrandson posted:
Spoiler:
The Command Starter(seen here) is a 30 point list.
-Wraithbinder Nekane(warcaster)[the woman in armor]
-Hades(Character Warjack)
-Master Necrotech Chatterbane(Character Solo)[spindle-legged]
-The Furies(3-characters model unit)[ghosties]
If you were referring to the Cygnar/Khador stuff? They've not commented on it yet.
Of interest to people here may be the fact that the new Khador and Cygnar stuff previewed will be plastic on sprues.
More plastic kits is good for everybody!
There's pics floating around on reddit, but I'm at work right now and can't access it.
I'm more annoyed by the fact that Miniature Market just canceled an order of mine- after it already shipped out. Not sure what to expect when it arrives tomorrow, but I'm going to assume none of the MKIV goodies that I'd ordered.
A plastic starter will 100% get me interested in this. I'm mates with, and live near, one of the SFG rules devs and he's a MASSIVE WM fanboy so I'm going to get a demo with him ASAP.
Can't say I'm shocked at a SFG dev being a massive WMH fan - back when they were founded, and started developing Guild Ball, they were a bunch of hardcore UK WMH tournament players.
Dysartes wrote: Can't say I'm shocked at a SFG dev being a massive WMH fan - back when they were founded, and started developing Guild Ball, they were a bunch of hardcore UK WMH tournament players.
I do believe SFG poached Dave Carl from the Warmachine Development team as well.
This was just as Warmachine Mk2 was completing its existence cycle.
There was talk in my group that he developed the core of Mk3 & bailed before playtesting rolled out.
The first Guild Ball book had quite a few former PP names in it, if I recall correctly.
Almost everything we're seeing was already happening with PP; you just had to be paying attention to their web page or Facebook to know about it. SFG has done a great job putting this stuff out there for people to actually see.
LunarSol wrote: Almost everything we're seeing was already happening with PP; you just had to be paying attention to their web page or Facebook to know about it. SFG has done a great job putting this stuff out there for people to actually see.
Yeah that's something we discussed here before that PP didn't seem to be getting the news out far enough. That for some reason they were either black-listed; too small or just not reaching out the right way/to the right people or had the right connections. Basically stuff was happening but if you weren't "in" their system you weren't aware of it. Which I think has been an issue for quite a bit of time as they've shrunk back. It wouldn't surprise me if some of it was just losing staff who used to do those connections and reach out with material.
LunarSol wrote: Almost everything we're seeing was already happening with PP; you just had to be paying attention to their web page or Facebook to know about it. SFG has done a great job putting this stuff out there for people to actually see.
Yeah that's something we discussed here before that PP didn't seem to be getting the news out far enough. That for some reason they were either black-listed; too small or just not reaching out the right way/to the right people or had the right connections. Basically stuff was happening but if you weren't "in" their system you weren't aware of it. Which I think has been an issue for quite a bit of time as they've shrunk back. It wouldn't surprise me if some of it was just losing staff who used to do those connections and reach out with material.
Not wanting to poo poo the SFG love in, but I'm wondering how much of the attention WM is getting now is becasuse of SFG, or just more people paying attention because WM was bought out and the wider perception that "Things are happening".
I suppose right now that doesn't matter, but I do hope the momentum continues. Very excited by what I'm seeing.
Privateer Press, for whatever reason, retracted their preview stuff to just Facebook and its related platforms. I don't share stuff from there, personally, but I did when it was on Twitter as it was easier to share and not likely to suddenly just vanish.
Do we have a Steamforged company thread? Anyway, here's their GenCon sales. Not seeing miniature games discussed on this thread. Up to 65% off, mostly RPGs and boardgames.
“P3 paints were originally formulated to stay wet for longer, allowing painters to ‘wet blend’ colours more smoothly on models.
“In the 18 years since the original formula was launched, paint technology has evolved, as have the expectations of painters who’ve now got a lot of options to choose from. In creating the new P3 range, it was essential we preserve the original benefits that gave P3 its stellar reputation, while incorporating modern advancements to bring the paint up-to-date.
“During development of the new P3 formula, we’ve pushed pigment load as far as possible to give rich, vibrant colours that pop, without losing the classic consistency and feel. We’ve also fine-tuned the finish to give a slight satin effect that sets the new P3 range apart from many other modern paint ranges.
"This ensures vibrant colour saturation as well as providing an ideal surface for washing, layering, glazing and, of course, wet-blending, while also providing better protection than matte finishes.
“Once we’d established the baseline behaviour of the formula, we then focused on each paint individually to ensure every colour performs consistently off the brush, including our brand new metallics.
“We've worked closely with our manufacturing partner to take the metallic paints to another level for intense coverage. The new formula delivers serious shine and lets the paints cover easily straight from the pot, but can also be diluted down for maximum control.
“The new P3 range stands on the shoulders of the giants who first conceived it, then goes even higher to deliver a modern, powerful paint with best-in-class behaviour for painters of all experience levels.”
which in one way is good as more choice is always a bonus, but on the other hand they aren't really going to be P3 (maybe they should have called them P4 instead)
Why do they need a kickstarter for a product that already exists. I'm looking at 20 odd pots of P3 paints on my shelf right now.
Most likely to generate enough orders in one go to have enough money to justify doing a massive production batch order to get things going again. Normally a firm would invest into that with profits to generate the order or take out a loan/take on an investor to invest into it. Warmachine isn't in that position right now, but they DO have a lot of the material from before they shut down P3 supplies. So they are part way there and a KS is a great way to get the money to get the product back on shelves; without having to pay out interest to investors/loans and without having to potentially wait years to generate revenue on their own. Esp when revenue generated through sales right now should be going into the core business of getting more models out and so forth.
Why do they need a kickstarter for a product that already exists. I'm looking at 20 odd pots of P3 paints on my shelf right now.
Most likely to generate enough orders in one go to have enough money to justify doing a massive production batch order to get things going again. Normally a firm would invest into that with profits to generate the order or take out a loan/take on an investor to invest into it. Warmachine isn't in that position right now, but they DO have a lot of the material from before they shut down P3 supplies. So they are part way there and a KS is a great way to get the money to get the product back on shelves; without having to pay out interest to investors/loans and without having to potentially wait years to generate revenue on their own. Esp when revenue generated through sales right now should be going into the core business of getting more models out and so forth.
So kickstarter has moved away from "indy company getting something off the ground" to more of a pre-ordering and risk transfer mechanism for companies? Again im probably asking a dumb question again.
Iv always been put off by established companies asking for my money up front for a product I might get in the future at some point. Iv held the view that its not worth buying something unless a company can get it to me in a store. But perhaps the whole world has moved on and im still sat in some intellectual cave.
and given how long Privateer Press has been struggling there are probably a significant number of potential purchasers who have never come across P3 paint in the wild, and since paints on kickstarter have done well using it to attract attention to the relaunch is probably a smart move
(it also means lots of sales of sets so people will try colours from across the range, whereas if the release was just into stores they could well find that only a few popular colours sold and a whole bunch of the more obscure ones languished )
Why do they need a kickstarter for a product that already exists. I'm looking at 20 odd pots of P3 paints on my shelf right now.
Most likely to generate enough orders in one go to have enough money to justify doing a massive production batch order to get things going again. Normally a firm would invest into that with profits to generate the order or take out a loan/take on an investor to invest into it. Warmachine isn't in that position right now, but they DO have a lot of the material from before they shut down P3 supplies. So they are part way there and a KS is a great way to get the money to get the product back on shelves; without having to pay out interest to investors/loans and without having to potentially wait years to generate revenue on their own. Esp when revenue generated through sales right now should be going into the core business of getting more models out and so forth.
So kickstarter has moved away from "indy company getting something off the ground" to more of a pre-ordering and risk transfer mechanism for companies? Again im probably asking a dumb question again.
Iv always been put off by established companies asking for my money up front for a product I might get in the future at some point. Iv held the view that its not worth buying something unless a company can get it to me in a store. But perhaps the whole world has moved on and im still sat in some intellectual cave.
Yes - KS started with a single concept but its grown way beyond that now and is used by a variety of firms all for different purposes. Heck KS even supports after-funding period backing now (late pledges) which is something that 's been done for years, but until very recently KS didn't really have much (if any) post campaign tools and everyone used 3rd parties for that. Which was basically KS leaving a LOT of money on the table for other firms to sweep in and take in managing the after-campaign.
But yeah KS is more than it was at its conception
As for your approach its not a bad one. Some KS have everything ready to go and its just raising cash with a big discount on price; some are raising funds to generate orders big enough to make the whole enterprise work; some are doing it to show investors that there's money to be made; some are using it for marketing hype; some are small firms; some are big firms etc... Even big firms still have to pay for things and KS might be a way that pet projects get into the world where otherwise their profits might be too low to justify the firm investing into them over other choices.
In the end some KS come with more risk than others and you have to weigh up if the money you spend is worth the risk of not getting anything. You can always wait for products to come to market and something like P3 paints would be a "safe" one as it should be a medium to long term release. Some things, eg boardgames, might be "one and done" where any supply after the campaign is just from that campaign order and there won't be a general restock. So once its gone its gone.
Discounts on some KS can also be extreme and super tempting over retail prices - though this has reduced over the years. Partly because companies find that insane KS discounts result in retail outlets not wanting to buy stock (because the market got flooded with cheap); or they find that providing stuff almost "at cost" ends up biting them hard when actual real world production and release ends up taking longer and costing more than estimated (VERY COMMON); and a bunch of other things too.
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OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: and given how long Privateer Press has been struggling there are probably a significant number of potential purchasers who have never come across P3 paint in the wild, and since paints on kickstarter have done well using it to attract attention to the relaunch is probably a smart move
(it also means lots of sales of sets so people will try colours from across the range, whereas if the release was just into stores they could well find that only a few popular colours sold and a whole bunch of the more obscure ones languished )
Also I have to say that PP did do really well with all their Warcaster Kickstarters. Even during the Pandemic they delivered pretty much on schedule. It's a shame that the game never took off as it did some really cool ideas and I hope it gets back on market. The idea of a side-board in a wargame and infinite respawns of units is something that introduces a whole bunch of tactics that other wargames just lock out by design. I think it also is a mechanic that goes a long way to helping situational/niche models actually get into more competitive game lists and systems because now you can just not bring the niche thing from your sideboard into the battlefield unless you need it. So in a tournament you can take it and use it when needed; as opposed to regular wargames where you only take the most generic efficient choices for the army because that niche thing that works against 1 other army race isn't worth it when it might only be one or two of your competing matches where it can do anything
Yeah - KS has long been a cheap (sometimes) pre-order that's often low-risk for the companies. Occasionally crowdfunding still gets used by actual indie creators too, though in my experience that's less the case for minis games that are planned to go to retail (though some still do) but plenty of indie RPGs and stuff get there. And I don't really know about anything outside tabletop there - I've backed the odd artsy thing - cartoons or illustration collections - that seems fairly indie as well, but mostly I stick to tabletop.
It really is a shame Warcaster isn't there yet, though I have no reason to think SFG ISN'T at least considering it in good faith once Warmachine is back on good footing, though I recognize that it's both perhaps too charitable to SFG as well as that, even with the best of faith, it might not happen. It is a good core engine though - and you can see lots of its design choices come through in WMIV. But I have some stuff and between a friend and I we'll play when the mood strikes us. It could really use a balance pass though.
Decoupling turn lengths from scoring rounds a little was also an interesting move and I've seen a few other games do something similar; it makes the players have to mix up their timing assumptions and I found that to be an interesting dynamic.
I think Warcaster has hope; it just launched at a really bad time and then got hit with the rise in metal prices and PP clearly not having Warmachine 4.0 take off as strong as they hoped (plus likely a bunch of other things).
It's right now sitting in the same spot as Firestorm Armada - decent chance of returning, but needs the parent firms core game to improve on sales first to get to a point where they can support a second game and system fully.
A LOT will ride on if Warmachine can recover well.
Also whatever is happening with Monster apoc because what should have been a huge success for PP is now a mess not of hteir own making
Why do they need a kickstarter for a product that already exists. I'm looking at 20 odd pots of P3 paints on my shelf right now.
Because they are being reformulated and are essentially a brand new line with an old name. If there are old colors you like, you might want to stockpile them, if you can find them.
I'm not Kickstarting a set of paints, but will certainly be curious to see how they turn out. P3 paints back in the day were a great step up from Citadel bolter shell pot paints when I was first learning the hobby. Couple great colors in there that I've never been happy with replacements for, and their metallics were great for the time.
Prometheum5 wrote: I'm not Kickstarting a set of paints, but will certainly be curious to see how they turn out. P3 paints back in the day were a great step up from Citadel bolter shell pot paints when I was first learning the hobby. Couple great colors in there that I've never been happy with replacements for, and their metallics were great for the time.
The second wave of metallics were great, the originals were awful. I, for one, remember the pots of Rhulic Gold that doubled as IEDs.
Prometheum5 wrote: I'm not Kickstarting a set of paints, but will certainly be curious to see how they turn out. P3 paints back in the day were a great step up from Citadel bolter shell pot paints when I was first learning the hobby. Couple great colors in there that I've never been happy with replacements for, and their metallics were great for the time.
Obviously not all kickstarters are for everyone, but depending on the price I'll probably be in on this one. I moved a while ago and a lot of my paints ended up drying up in storage, so the chance to get a fresh range at a good deal is appealing.
P3 metals have been good for me too, their lighter colors had pretty good coverage compared to other paints out at that time.
Also whatever is happening with Monster apoc because what should have been a huge success for PP is now a mess not of hteir own making
If games could be cursed, MonPoc would certainly be close to the top of the list of likely suspects.
Yeah the sad part is it seems to sell really well whenever PP gets it going; but then it hits huge roadblocks.
First whatever the film thing/connection was the first time around when it came out and then just got killed from sale for years.
Then this new Kickstarter that has likely shot it dead again instead of making it PP's likely biggest seller.
I'll just add that a company that seems "established" in the hobby niche, is still a small company, and thus a few failed projects away from bankruptcy. Whether or not your money is involved is nonetheless up to you for whatever reason.
For paints, I have enough paints. I'd wait until the reviews are out, even if it means retail. Plenty more risk with paints than miniatures.
Prometheum5 wrote: I'm not Kickstarting a set of paints, but will certainly be curious to see how they turn out. P3 paints back in the day were a great step up from Citadel bolter shell pot paints when I was first learning the hobby. Couple great colors in there that I've never been happy with replacements for, and their metallics were great for the time.
The second wave of metallics were great, the originals were awful. I, for one, remember the pots of Rhulic Gold that doubled as IEDs.
I love Blighted Gold.
Dirty enough to not be shiny, but bright enough to not be a Bronze.
P3 reviews. However, I heard the P3 paints will be reformulated? No hurry to buy paints and I only paint to advanced tabletop, so can wait for retail and reviews. Interested in easy to use flesh paints and mixing medium.
For me, it’s a hard ‘no’ on the P3 paints. They had a place at one time. But in 2024 there are way too many other good to excellent paint lines already on the market. And I’m not getting into yet another paint line you’ll likely never see in stores, and have to mail order. No thanks. And don’t even get started on how crooked Kickstarter has become…
totalfailure wrote: For me, it’s a hard ‘no’ on the P3 paints. They had a place at one time. But in 2024 there are way too many other good to excellent paint lines already on the market. And I’m not getting into yet another paint line you’ll likely never see in stores, and have to mail order. No thanks.
Ninjon covered these two points in the video above (starting at the 15:40 mark) and why he doesn't see them as being a problem.
totalfailure wrote: For me, it’s a hard ‘no’ on the P3 paints. They had a place at one time. But in 2024 there are way too many other good to excellent paint lines already on the market. And I’m not getting into yet another paint line you’ll likely never see in stores, and have to mail order. No thanks.
Ninjon covered these two points in the video above (starting at the 15:40 mark) and why he doesn't see them as being a problem.
I stopped watching Ninjon and Miniac long ago. You can infer from that how much I value their opinions…If the paint is successful, great for Steamforged. I won’t be backing it, or searching it out if there’s ever a retail release.
totalfailure wrote: For me, it’s a hard ‘no’ on the P3 paints. They had a place at one time. But in 2024 there are way too many other good to excellent paint lines already on the market. And I’m not getting into yet another paint line you’ll likely never see in stores, and have to mail order. No thanks.
Ninjon covered these two points in the video above (starting at the 15:40 mark) and why he doesn't see them as being a problem.
I stopped watching Ninjon and Miniac long ago. You can infer from that how much I value their opinions…If the paint is successful, great for Steamforged. I won’t be backing it, or searching it out if there’s ever a retail release.
Those two will shill anything sent to them for free.
I'd be more interested if someone of solid reputation tested them.
I love the P3 line. In particular it has, IMO the best highlight colors out there and work exceptionally well out of an airbrush sprayed over a Contrast basecoat. There's a couple colors I'll pick up solo when I run out and give a try, but its not something I'll have a solid opinion on until I try it myself.
Someone was selling the whole line, mostly unopened and with lots of duplicates, on Gumtree here a few years back so I bought it then and won't be backing the KS. I still hope it's succesful. Great paint.
totalfailure wrote: For me, it’s a hard ‘no’ on the P3 paints. They had a place at one time. But in 2024 there are way too many other good to excellent paint lines already on the market. And I’m not getting into yet another paint line you’ll likely never see in stores, and have to mail order. No thanks.
Ninjon covered these two points in the video above (starting at the 15:40 mark) and why he doesn't see them as being a problem.
I stopped watching Ninjon and Miniac long ago. You can infer from that how much I value their opinions…If the paint is successful, great for Steamforged. I won’t be backing it, or searching it out if there’s ever a retail release.
Those two will shill anything sent to them for free.
I'd be more interested if someone of solid reputation tested them.
They have alos leaned into Minitainment rather than actual painting.
It saddens me Vince Venturella, one of if not the best minitubers is friends and doesnt call them out on that.
totalfailure wrote:
I stopped watching Ninjon and Miniac long ago. You can infer from that how much I value their opinions…If the paint is successful, great for Steamforged. I won’t be backing it, or searching it out if there’s ever a retail release.
I remember he did a Temu or Wish episode reviewing a bunch of Chinese knockoffs, and even I felt that it was a bit much.
hotsauceman1 wrote:They have alos leaned into Minitainment rather than actual painting.
It saddens me Vince Venturella, one of if not the best minitubers is friends and doesnt call them out on that.
Ninjon (and a few others) are 100% background noise for me, so I need flash more than substance.
Vince requires actual watching.
As for call outs... it's a small world, man. There's rarely anything to be gained, and usually more to be lost, by creating interchannel drama. If I were to guess, Vince has a full time job (and probably a good paying one with plenty of flexibility), while Ninjon makes at least some or all of his living off his channel. things are different when it's about making a living.
I think at this point the cost of creating a paint range has gone down enough, and enough people are buying into paint ranges blind, that this makes sense even if you only sell to whales. I don't need another complete set, but they have some nice browns I wouldn't mind picking up at some point.
I liked the old P3 paints I had - and the ones are supposedly better (though who can say for sure yet) but they aren't really offering any value in the kickstarter to try to entice me into trying them.
I wish I could but I have been Kickstarted out. Nothing here is exclusive as I got confirmation that the Irregulars paint will eventually be on the SFG webstore so I'm just going to wait and buy singles later.
The KS seems to be doing pretty well for a miniatures paint kickstarter, with 3k people backing so far and half a million GBP (). So mission accomplished I guess.
I'll get the Irregulars because I need more of the old ones in that one and want to have a look at the changes that have been made myself, but the LGS is also bringing these paints into the store, and had most of the P3 line already, so I have a pretty extensive collection of P3 already.
P3 paints are pretty good, and the option of getting them in dropper bottles is cool because my flip tops from them all broke before the paint was used up.
But I am not gonna back a KS for paint. If they show up in my local shop in dropper bottles I'll be happy to pick some up.
I liked the light colours they had, like the old favourite, allaround champ "hammerfall khaki", as they were better than GWs flimsy light colours.
But these days GW can deliver on quality whites and even gold.
totalfailure wrote:
I stopped watching Ninjon and Miniac long ago. You can infer from that how much I value their opinions…If the paint is successful, great for Steamforged. I won’t be backing it, or searching it out if there’s ever a retail release.
I remember he did a Temu or Wish episode reviewing a bunch of Chinese knockoffs, and even I felt that it was a bit much.
hotsauceman1 wrote:They have alos leaned into Minitainment rather than actual painting.
It saddens me Vince Venturella, one of if not the best minitubers is friends and doesnt call them out on that.
Ninjon (and a few others) are 100% background noise for me, so I need flash more than substance.
Vince requires actual watching.
As for call outs... it's a small world, man. There's rarely anything to be gained, and usually more to be lost, by creating interchannel drama. If I were to guess, Vince has a full time job (and probably a good paying one with plenty of flexibility), while Ninjon makes at least some or all of his living off his channel. things are different when it's about making a living.
.
Yeah i respect vince because he gives actual advice in his channel, Ninjon i try watching and he just seems to know what he is talking about....but not conveying it
Got my hands on some prototypes of the P3 paint Kickstarter. For those still not sure, here are my thoughts: Smooth, satin, creamy, and high covering power. I was particularly impressed with the new Khador Red. It's a bright, vibrant red (similar to Citadel Evil Sunz Scarlet) that covers black in two thin coats without looking too pastel. The colour match to the old versions is decent, some colours are spot on, a few slightly off. The metallics are fantastic. Super smooth, with very fine metallic particles, and coverage is almost up to Vallejo Metal Color standards. Apparently, they've used a new technique with fully coloured aluminium flakes instead of mixing silver aluminium pigments with dye (Goobertown Hobbies really needs to check this out under his microscope). If you've always liked the P3 palette and love a satin finish, this Kickstarter might be for you.
Please note: I've only tested a handful of colours, so my impressions may not be representative. If you don’t know me yet, I review all the latest miniature paints on my YT channel: https://youtube.com/@stahly_taleofpainters I received the samples for free but, as always, I'm not sponsored. Full review planned when the range hits retail!
> Got my hands on some prototypes of the P3 paint Kickstarter.
fwiw, Prototypes aren't production. What you can make in small batches may not be possible in large, though hobby-level quantities certainly aren't mass market levels.
Anyway, thanks for your critique of Army Painter washes and Speedpaint a long time back! Hope you get a set of P3 to review when it hits retail!
2 personal take aways from this, FB chat and the AMA is
1) quite a big slowdown in releases vs what PP was trying to do
2) Old factions like Circle, Skorne etc are well and truly gone, retired as "armies of legends", playable but will never be getting anything else. If you played those armies you are now limited to 2nd hand market or switching to one of the nu-factions with the new looks etc. We all expected that but I think that fact is starting to brutally hit home with many people now.
I still think its a mistake to retire old factions that way - they should have just updated them with new sculpts under the same faction name.
That said a lot of the new factions are just new takes on old factions - eg there's "new everblight" that's copying many of the same design elements.
It's a choice they've made I don't fully agree with, but its there and its done and honestly I prefer a firm stance rather than a half-way "we might one day" attitude from them.At least a clear line lets you know their intentions and direction.
A slowdown is a shame, but honestly take a look at Warcradle handling Dystopian Wars and slower releases might be less "exciting" but they can make for most sustainable growth. Slow steady sales and sustainable growth is very much what they need. I'd rather that over a big blast of new stuff burnign them out and then having supply issues; big gaps; slowdown and (typically) lost communication and other stuff. And if you read the linked production update from before they very much were having issues meeting demand. Slower sustainable and reliable stocking is going to grow things far better than forever being out of stock.
The "we might someday" is because they honestly might. The original intent was clearly that Orgoth replace Cryx, but popular demand for both has us with both.
I think the problem with new sculpts is just that they'd need to resculpt everything and its just not worth doing, particularly to mostly sell to people who already have the stuff. For the most part I'm pretty happy with the greatest hits approach they've taken to Khador, with all the elements still there but clearly rethought into something more consistent than what it expanded to over the years.
Of course, they haven't left this stuff alone and its quickly bloating all over again, but I overall really like the focused design.
The range is still very limited. They will add more armies in the future for sure. And my guess is that most of them are gonna be new versions of old factions.
Hopefully Circle (which is my favorite army) will be one of them.
Judging by the new Trollbloods though, I'm not sure I am excited for this. I like the new models but they don't feel like the old Troolbloods at all. The only thing from the old army that could fit with the new is the Sea King.
Yeah the old Trollbloods were a little all over the place, but I believe they should have just picked one aspect of the army and focus on that.
I think new Trolls are quite well designed, just not a replacement for old trolls in any way. I'm kind of okay with that, honestly, but I'd not be sad to see a return of the northern tribes someday.
In terms of Circle, I'd keep an eye on Khador's second army. It looks to be a warbeast faction centered on Old Witch. It's probably something like new Grymkin, but she's always tied in with Circle as well so they might lean that way. I could definitely see Druids and Warpbeasts with like Kossites or something.
aku-chan wrote: It's kinda crazy that they've put their new two player starter set up for pre-order and we still haven't had much of a look at the contents.
I suspect more will be forthcoming, but you'd think they'd be spamming pictures everywhere.
Major Allister Caine (Cygnar waracaster)
Deuce (Cygnar character warjack)
Captain Bastian Falk (Cygnar character solo)
The Black 13th (Cygnar character 3-model unit)
Kapitan Zahara Vilkul (Khador warcaster)
Razor (Khador character warjack)
Sergeant Goran Lazarenko, the Jackal (Khador character solo)
The Hounds (Khador character 3-model unit)
Scatter Terrain (4x Walls and 2x Shallow Water/Hazards)
NGL, 2 person starter set with terrain for about £80 is a pretty decent price point. Given the cost of a lot of the Mk4 stuff i was expecting a lot more. Be interesting to see how popular this is with new player and getting people into the game
Steamforge definitely came out swinging last night with a huge keynote. Tons of impressive efforts towards the brand. Notable Grymkin/Convergence/Crucible/Infernals will all return to sale full time as a direct order on demand line from SFG. They will also be doing GW style reprints of other legacy armies.
Also big news with the return of the Press Gang and Lock & Load. Beyond that the new stuff is super exciting. The new technically Khador army with its Grymkin/Circle vibe looks incredible.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Image heavy highlights in the spoilers.
New Khador army of Old Umbrey
Spoiler:
New huge bases for the elves and new Legion
Spoiler:
New Troll army. This one far more tied to old Trolls:
Spoiler:
New Cephylix. A cadre for Cryx and a solo/super heavy mercenary akin to Magnus and Carver for everyone:
I don't know who is buying this stuff, or who Steamforged are making this for, but for the sake of the IP I am glad there is a plan and SFG are.. heh.. forging ahead with it. So, good for them.
I may pick up the new Trencher battlegroup box just to have a few of the new models (which, to be fair, DO look quite nice) but I'm not seeing anything in the line-up to make me want to start a new army to replace my mercs, much less play the new edition.
A lot of its going made-to-order. So chances are so long as they've got the casting equipment and staff to streamline production of the classic models and an organised library to make it quick to pull moulds from they can likely cast-on-demand and after the initial surge of demand it should level out. It also aims to bring back old-players by letting them have easy model access whilst also pushing the new models.
Get someone to finish their old army then sell them on the new game
Overread wrote: A lot of its going made-to-order. So chances are so long as they've got the casting equipment and staff to streamline production of the classic models and an organised library to make it quick to pull moulds from they can likely cast-on-demand and after the initial surge of demand it should level out. It also aims to bring back old-players by letting them have easy model access whilst also pushing the new models.
Get someone to finish their old army then sell them on the new game
Just musing out loud (because I have no evidence, only poor quality hot takes), the other explanation could be that the Mk4 Models just are not selling enough as many people are just sticking with their Mk3 armies.
Personally I'm actaully quite liking the Nu-Circle and upcoming Trollbloods Kithguard but that's because they look like the older style models, not this weird "different for the sake of it". These models look like WM/H models should do based on my experience. And bringing back Cyphalyx, Grymkin, CoC and Infernals is basically resurrecting the whole old line that had been moved to Armies of Legend and thus should have been slowly sliding towards being unsupported in a few years.
Almost no old player I have encountered (limited sample size i know) wants much or any of the nu stuff. Iv said that in order for Mk4 to be a success SFG needed to sell Mk4 models and get older players to convert over. Resurrecting whole old lines feels like them admitting that this isn't happening. I like what SFG is doing, but not enough, given the history of the game and the player base for me to jump back in and make it a game i play. Im still very much in a "wait another year" mode.
New WM factions have so far just been mashups of two previous factions into 1. This is that... but more.
Circle of Khador is interesting, and there's some more Everblighty-looking trolls (not to be confused with the Trolls of the Broken Coast), but nothing really new here.
And more big models. Ehh.
Cephylix looks mostly intact, design-wise, which is nice for me personally. I always really liked their vibe.
Overread wrote: A lot of its going made-to-order. So chances are so long as they've got the casting equipment and staff to streamline production of the classic models and an organised library to make it quick to pull moulds from they can likely cast-on-demand and after the initial surge of demand it should level out. It also aims to bring back old-players by letting them have easy model access whilst also pushing the new models.
Get someone to finish their old army then sell them on the new game
Just musing out loud (because I have no evidence, only poor quality hot takes), the other explanation could be that the Mk4 Models just are not selling enough as many people are just sticking with their Mk3 armies.
Personally I'm actaully quite liking the Nu-Circle and upcoming Trollbloods Kithguard but that's because they look like the older style models, not this weird "different for the sake of it". These models look like WM/H models should do based on my experience. And bringing back Cyphalyx, Grymkin, CoC and Infernals is basically resurrecting the whole old line that had been moved to Armies of Legend and thus should have been slowly sliding towards being unsupported in a few years.
Almost no old player I have encountered (limited sample size i know) wants much or any of the nu stuff. Iv said that in order for Mk4 to be a success SFG needed to sell Mk4 models and get older players to convert over. Resurrecting whole old lines feels like them admitting that this isn't happening. I like what SFG is doing, but not enough, given the history of the game and the player base for me to jump back in and make it a game i play. Im still very much in a "wait another year" mode.
I think lack of uptake of the new things has multiple elements attached to it. I also think its unbalanced.
Warmachine itself is getting reasonably faithful to original design armies under the new system. More or less if you liked the old models the new are revamped versions of them for the most part; plus under the same/similar army names. It's an evolution albeit a very heavy handed deployment because of wiping out all the old stuff in one go as PP ran out of cash to keep casting functional.
Hordes on the other hand is getting more of these adapted factions and fewer that are fully faithful to the original - of course this might just mean more faithful ones/recreations of old factions are coming later.
So you could argue that bringing back old stuff to market is 100% aiming to appease those who don't want to upgrade to get them buying again and get them supporting the game once more. It also shows things like long term planning; faithful support of the original material and a bunch of other things that give confidence to wargamers that its a brand to invest into for the long term. Which I think is something PP were also lacking in ; the longer they had MKIV the more we saw them cutting back on things; downsizing; moving and so on and so forth. Ergo whilst on one hand things were going good on the other it gave a feeling that they might just not be around again.
Steamforged I think are doing a lot more and all this new casting; new STL development; new app and other things are all big costs to invest into. They are clearly able to deploy resources that PP just didn't have any more and I think that, plus some new marketing and company direction is likely going to reward them with greatly increased sales. They already said that they upped production facilities so I think sales are happening - to new and old fans. So there's clearly enough sales volume going on to make it worth them taking these big investment steps.
I feel like we are back at the launch of MKIV where there was energy, focus and drive; only this time we've got a firm with more active resources behind it now who can make some early strategic calls to invest and do stuff that should reward and generate faster and greater growth.
I feel like we are back at the launch of MKIV where there was energy, focus and drive; only this time we've got a firm with more active resources behind it now who can make some early strategic calls to invest and do stuff that should reward and generate faster and greater growth.
That's a damn accurate and fair way of looking at it. This years Adepcon feels like the announcements that PP should have made
But it does mean another false start/dawn or whatever. But if they have a plan to get it physically into store and physically visible and being played then that can only be a good thing. Still more to do.
It's less of a false start though because MKIV is still out in the wild. I am looking forward to them getting EU/UK production up to standard - places like Firestorm and Wayland don't have any stock at all - but they seem to be getting the new starter pack in decent numbers. So hopefully getting the 3D printing side sped up will help.
Plus the big investment into plastics means they can, in theory, steadily transition toward that. Whilst the costs are greater the ability to print at speed is WAY greater than for 3D printing.
I think there was a lot of worry when SFG stepped in that they'd take things in an odd direction or they'd just burn out like PP had done or shelve the game to back-burner. Instead we've got them making very solid headway into first solidifying the position and now it feels like they are going full on with expanding. Back-access to models, the humble bundle access to lore and other things all feel like "customer/gamer" focused choices. Things that show loads of positivity and support for the game.
I think it wasn't just a win for Warmachine/Hordes its a win for SFG and PP working together toward what should be a better future for the game.
Honestly, the MK4 stuff has always been pretty true to the Warmachine design style. The big problem is their studio painter was WAY into NMM painting that doesn't match the model style at all. Orgoth suffer the worst from this, and seeing them painted normally warmed me on the line considerably.
I will say, SFG has gotten the recent 2 player starters on shelves pretty effectively. There hasn't been a big release since to know how well that continues, but its made a difference. I'm not sure if its enough, but this keynote is definitely better than anything we've seen from PP in years.
Locally we've had bits of interest in buying things, but I've not seen a lot of gaming. I actually just broke my stuff out the other day and the game does feel really good. I still think they need to reign in the tournament crowd and make 75 points the standard with a bit of an FA cap. It feels really good there with more of an FA:1-2 range for most things.
I'm more hyped than I've been in a while for sure. I'm not sure what the local response will be but... I'm game if they are.
I feel like PP was on life-support for way too long. Too many choices made poorly compounding each other and resources and money running thin. I'm sure there's a bunch of things SFG are doing that PP wanted to do and simply didn't have any money to do so. Add to that them losing staff over the years and I think as a firm they were just ground down.
Covid killing Warcaster; the massive disaster with Monster Apoc and a bunch of other things all drained the resources PP had and sapped out money. Even though they got Warcaster out on time for a KS (which is impressive even without it being mid-pandemic); etc... It was just never enough to let it take off. Hopefully we see Warcaster make a return too!
SFG brings a big injection of staff, energy and money - its a huge resource boost that I think is going to really work wonders considering it seems like the team behind them know their stuff; know business and are fired up for the setting.
I think this is all good news and I hope things continue to move along. It does seem like there are more people either getting in new or coming out of the woodwork, though it remains slow.
I think the main obvious thing for me is that the four factions they announced were all "limited' factions without ongoing bloat, but they were all produced after, I assume, a switch to digital sculpting. So they probably have the files and can print new masters/models after doing some work on them.
Re: the NMM I really think the studio schemes need to pick better colours. Orgoth, Khymera, and to a large extent Cryx all look like an undifferentiated mass especially when fast scrolling on phones as many of us do.
The thing I'm still really hoping for is getting scenarios written specifically for smaller formats. I know some chatter has it that the current SR ones scale down okay, but I still want something akin to Brawlmachine. The discord - as is usual with WM - keeps wanting to play bigger games, but at least for me I have too many other games these days to choose a lifestyle game, so smaller is my preference.
I'm curious how the returning factions are going to be manufactured.
I'm very open to giving Grymkin another go if they're going to be 3d printed, instead of that terrible PVC they were using at the time.
aku-chan wrote: I'm curious how the returning factions are going to be manufactured.
I'm very open to giving Grymkin another go if they're going to be 3d printed, instead of that terrible PVC they were using at the time.
I'm guessing that they'll use the original moulds and castings. So metal will be metal - not sure about the PVC plastics they might be able to use the same moulds with a different plastic.
I would not expect them to do 3D prints because basically that means remaking every single model
aku-chan wrote: I'm curious how the returning factions are going to be manufactured.
I'm very open to giving Grymkin another go if they're going to be 3d printed, instead of that terrible PVC they were using at the time.
there's 2 things they said in the stream. First Legacy stuff is only the masters they have access too so they can make molds and reprints. Those will be like GW's system where you have a month or two to pre-order, they make the orders, and then ship and rotate to the next set of models.
The Cephylix, funny enough, are 3d prints sculpted by Titanforge (except for the big guy and caster that comes with him which are plastic) and you can buy STLs and at some point they'll be selling them in their store.
Honestly I'm expecting the rescasting to be original metals and perhaps things like the 1st run of gargantuans which were resin+metal. I'd wager the plastic moulds could be entirely lost (esp since weren't a bunch of them basically lost in the Chinese factory at the time because they refused to let them go)
They delivered pretty much everything people have been asking for and then some in this keynote. If the game keeps getting this kind of support it has a very bright future ahead of it.
