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Post by: hotsauceman1
So im sitting here plugging through my Conquest Sorc Kings army. Loved the models, loved the lore, loved alot of it.
But im also sitting here wondering why bother ynow? the game died(Or more never was really born in this area) leaving me with it and my 4 core group of friends with our armies, and they(alongside me) moved to warmachine. But even war machine feels like a shadow of its current self.
I also played competitive MCP for a long time, until i had a come to jesus moment when i played at a tournament an hour south of me, and all my opponents where people i played.......who i met and hour north of me. the crew remained the same, the location didnt. then i tried to get local games, and i still have to drive.
I remember early late 2000s early 2010s when you had tons of other games all vying for the "Second Game" the one people played besides Warhammer, or left Warhammer for. Warmahordes, Malifaux, Infinity, Dropfleet commander. All my local stroes carried that and had events and game nights.
But now.....its just Warhammer wherever you go. i never see events from any other games advertised.
When i asked my local store if they will carry Gundam or starcraft, the laughed, only wargame they are going to carry now is 40k and the minimum of whatever they are required to.
Did GW really kill that market? was it outside forces like the state of the ecnomy and time?
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Post by: Apple fox
Every game has up and down moments, even 40K. It’s just that GW can keep that going even during those times.
Our store has a variety, 40K is common, but not played that much. Necromunda and Mordheim every year has players coming out of nowhere to play. Every campaign I have players turn up I haven’t seen in forever.
MCP is huge with a completely separate community, they don’t really want or care about the big GW stuff. And lots more kids giving it a go.
If your store doesn’t care, then it’s possible your store just isn’t good.
But I do think the current economic state is really bad for wargaming, which is both time consuming as a hobby and expensive.
Even a skirmish game looks expensive when you need to invest $50+ paint. And then learn, turn up to things.
I also think popular culture isn’t really helping. Building a community does take work, you need people there that are friendly, inviting, able to help and support anyone. But you also need to recognise when people are causing friction or problems. It doesn’t take much for a community to be ruined by a single person.
Especially in small hobby’s that do need at least one other player. I have been in a few groups over the last ten years that honestly I was glad when the campaign ended and didn’t bother even keeping in touch with. It’s not worth it.
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Post by: UR-025
It is said that half of all businesses fail in their first five years.
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Post by: ccs
If GW killed off all the other gaming options, NE Ohio didnt get that memo....
Especially at the shop I call home.
We've got no end 40k, but also strong support for:
(In no particular order)
●AoS
●Old World
●Horus Heresy
●Bolt Action
●Konflict 47
●Trench Crusade
●MCP
●Blood Bowl
●BattleTech
A bit of Legion Imperialis, Flames of War (all versions), LoTR, & the new iteration of Car Wars also see some play.
Probably something I didnt list as well.
And we just added Bushido to the list.
2 of the guys were playing it the other week, a number of others saw it & thought it looked cool and asked the shop.
Shop put out some feelers to gage interest.
Interest was high enough for them to place an order.
Order came in Wed. They are now sold out & setting up a larger order.
And if you want to play something? Someone in my area probably plays it.
Another shop plays all GW stuff. They alternate leagues of 40k/AoS/LotR.
But if table space is available you can play whatever.
3rd shop a bit out is alot of 40k, but also has a Warlord Games group every Fri.
Also a bit of Gaslands.
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Post by: Eilif
40k has always been the big dog. When you've been in the hobby for a few decades, you realize that everything else is will die. It does sound though like your local shops suck. We've got Battletech, Halo, Legion and other games going strong in the area at local shops.
Ultimately though if you want to game other things, the hobby store might not support that long term. You need a group of people meeting on their own terms, playing the games they want to play, possibly playing in their own locations.
If you'd want to play Conquest, do so. If it's just the figs and lore you like, maybe try and get them back on the table with Age of Fantasy. Make your hobby YOUR hobby.
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Post by: Robert Facepalmer
There was far less competition for the second main back in the day. You would have the big one, then the second would usually be another GW game or WM/H, FoW, some other historical, Battletech. You could really start getting out in the weeds with Wargods or Void, but there weren't THAT many options.
Now you have an entire smorgasbord just from GW. They support five games just in the 30-40k setting right now, so you don't even have to go that far to find an alternate game. And the rest of the industry is even more chopped up.
When the WHFB group died locally, about a third stuck with 8th/9th Age, a third switched over to KoW, and the rest scattered to 40k, Infinity, WM/H, etc. Surprisingly there wasn't much crossover, people tended to stick with one replacement for Fantasy as they already had secondary games. A lot of the 'etc.' group were out of minis or gaming as a whole within a few years. I know one guy is still playing 40k and another has switched over to mostly playing Magic, but they are the only ones left. The KoW group asted a bit longer, but the smaller pool to play within meant that their events were way smaller and less frequent, so they had a hard time keeping a community, let alone attracting new players. A few of them came back with TOW, but a lot of them are also out entirely or switched over to Kill Team or 40k. The 9th Age group lasted about as long as the KoW for the same reasons, though a fair number of them became the core of the TOW group (but not all).
It also feels like the secondary games are far more 'disposable' now. Of all the old secondary games, the only two that I would be reasonably sure of getting a response to are Blood Bowl and Battletech. Frostgrave was hot for a couple years, but I guarantee that if I asked around if there was interest in a game day, it would mostly be 'maybe, but I would be more into Mordheim/Silver Bayonet/Hide, Stone, and Bone'. Even our Trench Crusade days have struggled to get more than 3-4 players recently. There are just so many options to dabble in, but nothing really 'sticks'.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Only GW is a lifestyle brand, the rest are just games.
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Post by: ccs
 Robert Facepalmer wrote:There was far less competition for the second main back in the day. You would have the big one, then the second would usually be another GW game or WM/H, FoW, some other historical, Battletech. You could really start getting out in the weeds with Wargods or Void, but there weren't THAT many options.
Now you have an entire smorgasbord just from GW. They support five games just in the 30- 40k setting right now, so you don't even have to go that far to find an alternate game. And the rest of the industry is even more chopped up.
What day was that exactly?
Sorry, I've been doing this (miniature wargaming) for 40+ years.
I just cant agree with you that there weren't THAT many options "back in the day" (whenever you think that was). There were, YOU just weren't aware of them. OR your forgetting/dismissing things/lumping stuff into giant catch-all categories ("Historicals").
Yes, 40k has been the elephant in the room & eating up huge swathes of retail shelf space for a very long time.
And yes, internet + Kickstarter + 3d printing has alliwed for a huge volume of stuff in recent years.
But there's always been a smorgasbord of options. And in every scale you can imagine.
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Post by: Easy E
I think the popularity of secondary games varies a lot by region.
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Post by: ced1106
> Now you have an entire smorgasbord just from GW. They support five games just in the 30-40k setting right now, so you don't even have to go that far to find an alternate game.
Yep! "Be your own competition" is an old adage for business. Yum! brand's "KenTaco Hut" of owning KFC, Taco Bell, and Pizza Hut is a classic example.
In the 80's, GW had boardgames, Epic scale, and 28mm scale games in the same universe. But it looks like today's alternatives let you use your mini's in multiple skirmish games.
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Post by: insaniak
ccs wrote:
I just cant agree with you that there weren't THAT many options "back in the day" (whenever you think that was). There were, YOU just weren't aware of them.
Which, funnily enough, highlights a part of the problem today as well. For people who spend time online following gaming news, there are a wealth of gaming options. For the average person, most of the smaller games essentially don't exist. Particularly since the various social media platforms moved previously-organic exposure behind a paywall. It's really, really hard for a new game to get noticed without spending a lot of money (which new games rarely have) on advertising, unless they happen to catch the lightning at precisely the right time to have the right people start shouting about it from the rooftops.
And even them, you still have the problem of everyone playing 40K, so comparatively few gamers being willing to step outside the box where they will have less access to other players.
I also think it's made worse these days by GW's offerings being such veteran, sprawling behemoths. Whatever sort of army you want to play, you can find it in 40K, and if you get bored with your army there are a ton of other models you can add to your collection, and plenty of other factions to explore when you get bored with that. But that's only the case because 40K has been going for so long. Newer games by necessity start with smaller model ranges and fewer factions, and so people wait to see if the range expands (which it doesn't, because people are waiting for the range to expand instead of buying models to power that expansion), or they buy into it but then lose interest after a while if the game doesn't gain enough traction to fuel an aggressive release schedule because they have played all of the options and have no real avenue to expand.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
I've found 40k players in China, Japan, India and Egypt. It's an expensive game but there players everywhere.
Why is there no GURPS equivalent? No mini-agnostic game? I dunno. Maybe One Pages Rules and 3d printing can manage that
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Post by: insaniak
There have been a lot of mini agnostic offerings over the years. They've failed due to (I suspect) a lack of sufficient exposure and lack of an attention-grabbing setting... Because, as proven by GW quite successfully over the years, the quality of your rules is ultimately much less important than how much people are drawn to the game setting.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
The big advantage for 40K since….2017(?) is their offerings are more than just 40K.
Now you’ve got 40K, Kill Team and Necromunda sharing a universe and offering different experiences. Combat Patrol as well I suppose.
Heresy offers two scales, again each providing a different experience.
AoS has Underworlds and I think WarCry is still more or less going?
Old World
Blood Bowl.
So if you do get tired of a given game? There are others to choose from before you move out of GW’s Bubble. And importantly, with different price brackets. No I’m not going to be a silly boy and say any are outright cheap.
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Post by: LunarSol
At the moment 40k is in a really good place and whenever that's the case it tends to crowd out other games in the market. The early 2010's were a pretty dark time for the game so a lot of other games got some room to thrive.
That said, it really depends on how players organize and support games and what they want out of them. If your goal is to play in the biggest tournaments, then you're very likely to narrow down your options to a single game and at that moment that game is likely to be 40k. If you're more just interested in playing games there's a lot more room for variety.
Every community starts with a small group excited about a game and if there's interest it will grow. Not all games do unfortunately but its important to reassess what people are excited about. Locally we have a weekly miniatures night. 40k is the bulk of the games of course, but a lot of other stuff sees play. If something starts showing up regularly, we'll assign one night of the month to be dedicated to that game as the second game and if it keeps growing it'll often get more. Sometimes games are hot for a bit but kind of fade out and get played as people are excited to play them.
The question you have to ask yourself is what you really want out of these games. MCP, Conquest and Warmachine are all great at the moment. Which of them do you most enjoy? Which one do you want to spend time on? Let your friends know and be vocal about wanting to play.
Also keep in mind, 40k is honestly great at the moment. It's not the wrong answer, particularly if you want to just take part in a large active community. Just keep in mind having your secondary armies built up has its own purpose. I've got a lot of stuff in storage, but I've made a lot of friends simply because when someone new asks "does anyone play X?" I jump at the chance to pull things off the shelf and play an old game with someone new.
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Post by: Eilif
 insaniak wrote:There have been a lot of mini agnostic offerings over the years. They've failed due to (I suspect) a lack of sufficient exposure and lack of an attention-grabbing setting... Because, as proven by GW quite successfully over the years, the quality of your rules is ultimately much less important than how much people are drawn to the game setting.
I wonder what the measurement would be of success for OPR? It's a tough (Apples vs Pancakes...?) comparison because GW is Huge and everywhere and OPR makes most of their $ selling STL's and much of that via Patreon.
They have almost zero presence in stores and are only a minor presence at Cons, but they have thousands of subscribers and when you talk about agnostic games, OPR is usually a part of the conversation.
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Post by: KingmanHighborn
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Did GW really kill that market? was it outside forces like the state of the ecnomy and time?
1. No...at least not intentionally, their high prices, and new edition/book spam drove a lot of people, including myself away from their games, which opened the door for a lot of competitors. But the miniatures are still so badass it's hard to not want to buy just to add to or start collections. However, GW does have one major power and that's brand recognition. It's like the Ford or GM of the ttwg model world. They are so big, that smaller competitors, even if they make a better product, don't get the name recognition. In a way it's like ttrpgs were D&D rules the roost, no matter what warts the actual product has on it. And yet there are plenty of competitors that are better, but a store overlooks them to stock because they don't think they'll draw interest, and then that becomes a self fufilling prophecy when the people that ARE interested in Warmachine, Mechwarrior, Dropzone, etc. can't find a brick and mortar store to get things, and find a place to play. Hopefully that explanation isn't too word salady.
2. That's again yeah, a part of it, I'll try to not get on the political soapbox, but in the US because of the tariffs and high cost of shipping... anything really. Plus, the high cost of... everything... that's only going up. It has taken a lot of the hobby dollars out of people's pockets. And not everyone has a 3d printer, or money to invest in one to uh... offset some costs. So they do stick with the comfortable thing they know will always be available to play. The plague didn't help either, though that DID make things like tabletop simulator explode.
The other thing is, there has been one game that actually surpassed GW and made 40k/ AoS, etc. the 'second game' for all of a blip in time, and that was X-Wing, which, was 1. cost effective, 2. For time, rules stable, 3. Had a powerful brand identity, and 4. Only used a 3x3 mat instead of the minimum 6x4 space most GW games want. So it blew up but then it got mismanaged, and while the onset of 2nd was really good the AMG edition just nuked all the good will the game had. And GW had that reliable, and stable, long in the tooth presence.
That said, if you are looking for a 2nd game (Or like me, it's the primary game now.) that has a growing, and fun community check out Gaslands.
Bit off topic, but I do wish I could find people playing Dropzone Commander and Frostgrave around here. Both games I got miniatures and books for, but no one to game with.
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Post by: Sgt. Cortez
For my gaming group it's the "first game" 40K (which wasn't actually our first game) that has died as a rules system. Noone wanted to follow the rules churn anymore so we switched to One Page rules. However, it's mostly played with GW figures so GW still gets money from us.
My most played game currently is probably Star Wars Armada, though.
We also have the occasional Oathmark and LOTR game and I'm doing solo ST Attack Wing games.
So, to answer the OP's question, why do "games fizzle out" - with 40K it's definitely the rules churn, but also the No models no rules policy, which threw out some of our models (and I'm not talking legends, but outright not having rules for them anymore). It doesn't help that other rules are much cheaper and more convenient by being available online and not through some weird subscription service that also wants you to buy a 40€ book to have its rules in an app for all of 2 years...
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Post by: Polonius
Second games emerged to fill obvious gaps in the market. Warmahordes succeeded when 40k was at it's worst, rules wise. X-wing nailed the "low cost of entry prepainted" game.
Even the third tier of games did that. Malifaux was a skirmish game when that was not common. Flames of War served the historical market by leaning into the "based on the war based on the movie" aspect.
Basically, to have any success, you need a niche, and then you need to avoid one of the many things that can befall a smaller game.
1) GW just eats your lunch. This isn't 100% what happened to WMH, as MarkIII was struggling hard core, but the resuscitation of 40k with 8th edition erased any hope of it coming back. Guildball kind of faced this with bloodbowl, but I don't think that's what killed it.
2) you run out of IP/history to draw from. X-wing in particular suffered from this, and Legion is scraping the same constraints. At some point you start running out of iconic stuff and start putting out K-wing bombers, Squirrel Girl, or Romanian cavalry.
3) your range gets too big to stock. WMH and Flames hit this wall where it got to be daunting for a shop to stock everything.
4) you run out of design space. this is the third iteration of "can't grow any more" and in some ways the real cube/square law for any game. At some point, unless you remove options, the game becomes either A) too sprawling and full of exceptions to exceptions and gotchas (x-wing), B) too filled in, with all the possible playstyles iterated on (guild ball, WH Underworlds), or at worst, C) Both (WMH).
5) you don't mismanage your way from a modest success. Nearly every second game hit a point where the owner could have done something better. WMH had a famously catastrophic transition to Mark III which showed that they either did not play test nearly as much as they claim or their playtesting was not effecting. X-wing picked the moment they ran out of interesting ships to sell to switch to a second edition, making everyone pay money to just keep playing and the majority went.. naw. Guild Ball decided to weirdly blame the fan base for their decision to cancel the game.
6) finally, you have to avoid just plain old bad luck. Look, everybody has a sad story about their bad beats, but some things do happen that change the viability of a game. X-wing was probably already dead but there's reason to believe that Armada had more life in it save for the double whammy of being shunted to AMG and the dramatic increase in the cost of prepainted models. More expensive product from a less resourced company? not gonna happen.
BTW, these reasons are all mostly things GW is immune to. They own their own IP, they trim their product range (which is the biggest most stores carry anyway), they tweak the game to find roles for new units, they are professionally managed and have avoided the worst of the own goals since their dark days, and they're well capitalized. Automatically Appended Next Post: ccs wrote:What day was that exactly?
Sorry, I've been doing this (miniature wargaming) for 40+ years.
I just cant agree with you that there weren't THAT many options "back in the day" (whenever you think that was). There were, YOU just weren't aware of them. OR your forgetting/dismissing things/lumping stuff into giant catch-all categories ("Historicals").
Yes, 40k has been the elephant in the room & eating up huge swathes of retail shelf space for a very long time.
And yes, internet + Kickstarter + 3d printing has alliwed for a huge volume of stuff in recent years.
But there's always been a smorgasbord of options. And in every scale you can imagine.
I think that in absolute terms, the diversity of options in the past was probably higher. If nothing else, with everybody being pewter and black and white rulebooks, you just had a really low barrier to entry.
Outside of real niche outposts of the hobby, it's tough launching a game with metal models now. Infinity still does it, and they seem happy with their level of business.
When people say there are more options now, they probably mean that there are more options for hard plastic miniatures from professional companies. And that is certainly true.
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Post by: KingmanHighborn
 Polonius wrote:
2) you run out of IP/history to draw from. X-wing in particular suffered from this, and Legion is scraping the same constraints. At some point you start running out of iconic stuff and start putting out K-wing bombers, Squirrel Girl, or Romanian cavalry.
5) X-wing picked the moment they ran out of interesting ships to sell to switch to a second edition, making everyone pay money to just keep playing and the majority went.. naw.
6) finally, you have to avoid just plain old bad luck. Look, everybody has a sad story about their bad beats, but some things do happen that change the viability of a game. X-wing was probably already dead but there's reason to believe that Armada had more life in it save for the double whammy of being shunted to AMG and the dramatic increase in the cost of prepainted models. More expensive product from a less resourced company? not gonna happen.
BTW, these reasons are all mostly things GW is immune to. They own their own IP, they trim their product range (which is the biggest most stores carry anyway), they tweak the game to find roles for new units, they are professionally managed and have avoided the worst of the own goals since their dark days, and they're well capitalized.
I mostly agree with you but X-Wing actually had a lot more it could have pulled from, there's so many fighters, bombers, and other support craft between the 3 eras that they were never near the bottom of the well. There's multi-page documents that fans of the game had as 'wishlist' (I know I was guility of it too) Plus the game was so interesting that newcomers would see a ship they never heard about and go learn about it and its famous pilots. The switch to 2nd edition was bumpy but the conversion packs allowed a fairly seamless transition. One that was FAR easier than the current 40k edition flip of every 2-3 years. It was the AMG 2/5 rules that NUKED the player base. A lot of us wanted some casual mission-based play or game modes outside of 'line up and shoot the other team down' games. But AMG ham fisted it, wrecked a relatively balanced system overnight, and made playing with aces mandatory as the game actively punished you for taking rookie pilots over named ones. They could revive the game overnight if they went back to the rules at 2nd's launch. As far as the increased cost, EVERYTHING prepainted or not ballooned.
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Post by: SU-152
Most people in my local community:
- Officialists. GW is THE company. A model/game that is not from GW: NO.
- Competitive: WH40K and AoS have the most tournaments, so those are the games to go.
- Sunken cost: they will not change games because they have invested so much in WH40k/ AoS.
Snowball effect. So no other game has a chance.
 , ridiculous, I know.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
insaniak wrote:There have been a lot of mini agnostic offerings over the years. They've failed due to (I suspect) a lack of sufficient exposure and lack of an attention-grabbing setting... Because, as proven by GW quite successfully over the years, the quality of your rules is ultimately much less important than how much people are drawn to the game setting.
Perhaps it is time to launch my long-awaited original game Battleaxe in the 401st Century!
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Post by: Slipspace
Manufacturing can be a big problem with many non-GW games. If your game is not model-agnostic, it seems like manufacturing and shipping have been real problems for most companies since before Covid. If you can't get your hands on the actual product, you'll eventually move to a new game. Even if the product eventually shows up, the "new" factor will have worn off.
GW have stock issues as well, but I find they're not nearly as bad as some other miniature lines where some models seem to never be available and the second-hand market is less useful.
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Post by: Eilif
I would push back against the idea that there was more diversity in the past. Maybe at the the local game store there was, but the wider miniature wargaming space has more minis and more games than ever before.
I don't have numbers, but I'm pretty sure there's as many or more wargames being produced and in production and as many or more miniature lines. We've lost some of the classics, but there are tons more and alot of old lines continue (as usual) to find new homes and get back into production. It's also an amazing time for non-GW plastic model production.
Almost all this is in the small and indie space, but it only takes 2-4 people to pick an indie game and play it. Whether you want something generic or something unique with it's own minis, There are dozens and dozens of choices out there today.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
 Eilif wrote:I would push back against the idea that there was more diversity in the past. Maybe at the the local game store there was, but the wider miniature wargaming space has more minis and more games than ever before.
Most mid sized companies relevant in retail spaces in the 00s and 10s are dead or on life support (Battlefront, Privateer Press, FFG...) so that's probably where the sentiment that diversity is down comes from. But we are in the golden age of self publishing and direct sales.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Another reasons games die that hasn't been mentioned yet is licencing
it can be surprisingly cheap to pick up an IP licence to base a game on (or even licence a rule set if you own an IP but dont have or want to hire in experince in that area)
however if the game does well it inevitablely hits the time for licence renewal and sometimes the IP ower will ask for far, far more cash for the new licence (after all this is a game that's doing well) which means it's not profitable enought to go on with, or equally bad decide they no longer want to work with you because they've had a better offer from a more well known brand, they've decided to make their own game, or they want to take their IP in a different direction and your game no longer fits the bill
I suspect that in terms of getting games into stores the fall in the number of big distributors doesn't help either. Stores like ordering from places they get a lot of stuff from, it means they easily meet minimum order thresholds, and because they get at lot of stuff from them deliveries are fairly frequent.
Games that have to be ordered from a smaller distributor (or even worse direct) are less likely to get shelf space as they require more work, and even if the store is prepared to do that they risk having empty spaces on the shelves as they cant put in an order when something goes out of stock
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Post by: Gert
Back before the plague times, I chatted with the owner of an FLGS regarding Bolt Action and why there wasn't a larger presence for it.
It essentially boiled down to BA being so cheap to make that anyone other than Warlord selling them basically couldn't stock loads of it because it just wouldn't bring in cash. Warlord already sells it at the price best for them, so an FLGS can't offer savings like with other ranges.
Things like Flames of War, 40k/AoS, and even random dice games were all possible to do this with because the manufacturer would sell them at high prices that FLGS could undercut with discounts but still make profit off them.
Turns out when you sell high, other people can sell low.
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Post by: LunarSol
A lot of game success has to do with boring stuff that has nothing to do with the part customers care about (ie rules and cool toys) and everything to do with boring stuff like manufacturing and distribution. GW's actual advantage is that they've successfully invested public funding and partnerships with things like LotRs into their infrastructure to have control of these elements.
Being in a position to own the entire process from sculpting to tooling to printing and distributing has let them survive often through unpopular policies. Rejecting online discounters avoided devaluing the product. Codexes provide a regular new product for existing fans that they mostly purchase from retail partners. The direct contact forces them to manage the product line and properly manage SKUs and producing things that sell with the kind of volume to make HIPS profitable.
As much as we like to blame unpopular rule changes for these things, the reality is its usually more of a business failing. For all the finger pointing, what really killed Privateer was failing to manage its distribution partners. They made a game that just couldn't be stocked in the average store. There were so many SKUs that had all largely been hugely devalued by online discounters including an absolute glut of niche, expensive kits that most of their business shifted to online sales. While good for the player, it meant that they didn't have a reliable way of getting big initial purchases and the game wasn't reaching new players who pick it up off the shelves. The main reason cited for selling to SFG was simply to gain access to the distribution network SFG had created by getting their board games on store shelves. PP couldn't do it themselves anymore because all those bridges had been burned. Automatically Appended Next Post:  KingmanHighborn wrote:
I mostly agree with you but X-Wing actually had a lot more it could have pulled from, there's so many fighters, bombers, and other support craft between the 3 eras that they were never near the bottom of the well. There's multi-page documents that fans of the game had as 'wishlist' (I know I was guility of it too) Plus the game was so interesting that newcomers would see a ship they never heard about and go learn about it and its famous pilots. The switch to 2nd edition was bumpy but the conversion packs allowed a fairly seamless transition. One that was FAR easier than the current 40k edition flip of every 2-3 years. It was the AMG 2/5 rules that NUKED the player base. A lot of us wanted some casual mission-based play or game modes outside of 'line up and shoot the other team down' games. But AMG ham fisted it, wrecked a relatively balanced system overnight, and made playing with aces mandatory as the game actively punished you for taking rookie pilots over named ones. They could revive the game overnight if they went back to the rules at 2nd's launch. As far as the increased cost, EVERYTHING prepainted or not ballooned.
The issue with 2.0 is one of timing and in a lot of ways, paying for the sins of 1st edition. The conversion packs were great, but X-Wing was a game built on forcing players to buy ships for every faction for upgrades and hadn't built itself as a faction based purchase model. The conversion packs were fine from a faction perspective, but for most players it meant buying all of them while also having some of their newest toys split off into new factions. I don't really know many players who considered buying a single conversion box a viable option and the full set was a big ask to not get any new toys.
The bigger deal though in my mind was the lack of new content. Since the prequel kids hadn't quite hit the nostalgia window that's created the modern reappraisal, FFG didn't release anything from that era (outside some "old" Rebel tech) until after 2.0. The Rebel and Empire options that formed the bulk of the playerbase had been bled fairly dry at that point. For the players looking to buy the conversion kits there simply wasn't any new toys for 2.0 to sell them. Even the 2.0 starter was the third iteration of an X-Wing and 2 TIEs.
X-Wing always wildly exceeded the expectations for it and I think to a degree the plan was to ride it out as long as they could. If long term sustainability was a real goal, the transition to 2.0 needed to happen closer to when Scum was released, IMO. As for AMG, I think its pretty clear they were handed the job of managing the game until the product that was already in the production cycle got released and finding ways to sell what they could for a game that had already been cancelled behind the scenes.
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Post by: Robert Facepalmer
ccs wrote: Robert Facepalmer wrote:
What day was that exactly?
Sorry, I've been doing this (miniature wargaming) for 40+ years.
I just cant agree with you that there weren't THAT many options "back in the day" (whenever you think that was). There were, YOU just weren't aware of them. OR your forgetting/dismissing things/lumping stuff into giant catch-all categories ("Historicals").
Yeah, it has just under 40 years for me, but thinking of what was available in the late 80s and early 90s was either something from Citadel, something from FASA (Battletech, Star Trek), some historical, of which the only consistent system I remember was DBA/DBM.
Then you start getting into the weeds where Wargods is a 'big' game. I have probably seen one game of Flintloque being played, which is more than i can say for Dark Heaven or a bunch of other 'also rans'. I've seen a bunch of D&D, LoTR, and Star Wars games, but the only one that had any kind of consistency was Star Wars due to the West End miniatures supplement, the rest being some kind of homebrew. If you told me outside of playtest, less than 100 games of Shock Force have been played EVER, I wouldn't be surprised.
I know Grenadier and Ral Partha had rules supplements for their ranges, but even at the time nobody took those seriously.
What hidden gem of the 80s-90s have I forgotten? It must have been truly underground if I can't think of some random blister back, book, supplement, ad from WD/Dungeon/Dragon/Pyramid, or con booth discount bin.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Don't forget Mutant Chronicles/Warzone and the fantasy version - Chronopia?
They were everywhere in the late 90s early 2000s.
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Post by: Sgt. Cortez
 LunarSol wrote:
As much as we like to blame unpopular rule changes for these things, the reality is its usually more of a business failing. For all the finger pointing, what really killed Privateer was failing to manage its distribution partners. They made a game that just couldn't be stocked in the average store. There were so many SKUs that had all largely been hugely devalued by online discounters including an absolute glut of niche, expensive kits that most of their business shifted to online sales. While good for the player, it meant that they didn't have a reliable way of getting big initial purchases and the game wasn't reaching new players who pick it up off the shelves. The main reason cited for selling to SFG was simply to gain access to the distribution network SFG had created by getting their board games on store shelves. PP couldn't do it themselves anymore because all those bridges had been burned.
I'd add Star Wars Armada and Star Trek Attack Wing to that. Even before they cancelled Armada some kits were already going for insane prices (Rebel squadrons, Venator) on ebay because they've apparently never been reproduced.
With Attack Wing you had the problem that Wizkids were producing stuff once and then it was pretty much gone. So if you joined the game later on you'd be missing out on stuff from before.
Attack Wing is still going and everything they've produced in the last ten years, game wize, was pretty much fine. But it was always hard to get. Kits would need more than a year to become available in retail in europe, by that time players already found their own ways to get stuff from the USA (because you'd never know if kits would actually be available over here). As a result the playerbase has pretty much dried up.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Robert Facepalmer wrote:
What hidden gem of the 80s-90s have I forgotten? It must have been truly underground if I can't think of some random blister back, book, supplement, ad from WD/Dungeon/Dragon/Pyramid, or con booth discount bin.
Clan War, Stargrunt, B5 Wars.
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Post by: SU-152
insaniak wrote:There have been a lot of mini agnostic offerings over the years. They've failed due to (I suspect) a lack of sufficient exposure and lack of an attention-grabbing setting... Because, as proven by GW quite successfully over the years, the quality of your rules is ultimately much less important than how much people are drawn to the game setting.
Couldn't agree more.
Quality of rules has absolutely nothing to do with its success.
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Post by: The_Real_Chris
I have probably seen one game of Flintloque being played, which is more than i can say for Dark Heaven or a bunch of other 'also rans'.
I am going to be using my flintloque models for silver bayonet 
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Post by: Commodus Leitdorf
I think why a lot of games die can also ultimately depend on what a FLGS is willing to support and make time for.
In some places games can die out, while in others they flourish. Just this month my FLGS has events for
One Page Rules
SAGA
Carnevale
This is in addition to regular 40k nights. While these events are not as frequent, maybe they'll have a non GW event every 3 months or so. They do happen.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:I think why a lot of games die can also ultimately depend on what a FLGS is willing to support and make time for.
In some places games can die out, while in others they flourish. Just this month my FLGS has events for
One Page Rules
SAGA
Carnevale
This is in addition to regular 40k nights. While these events are not as frequent, maybe they'll have a non GW event every 3 months or so. They do happen.
my store refuses to carry any non- gw wargame, except battletech, and refuses any events for them
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Post by: LunarSol
A lot of stores are bad. Most of them blame their customers too.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
LunarSol wrote:A lot of stores are bad. Most of them blame their customers too.
the funny thing is my local store is known asmong the store community for being well known well run store. But the problem is, a well run store for the owner, doesnt always mean a good store for the customer
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Post by: NAVARRO
Well stores are in it for the money obviously. If they lose money and upset customers every time a game folds or supplies for that game are not adequate etc... they will avoid them in the future.
People keep saying its better now... Salute before Covid and now... Thats a good indication how small Indies are just not bothering doing it anymore.
Second games were always there and a strong alternative... now it's just another boardgame, splash game, go print it yourself etc. It's just a quick cash grab and that does not really goes well with longterm investment required for war-games.
Confrontation, Hell dorado, anima tactics, Warhammerhordes, FOW just a few of the things with actual wide catalogues and products that simply gone. I cannot even start naming the dozens of indie games and ranges that simply vanished in silence in the last few years. It's just too many of them.
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Post by: Da Boss
My local shop is very good, very friendly staff and really broad stock.
But you can see when they've been burned by games in the past - when PP collapsed and had massive supply issues in Europe, every shop in Germany was left sitting on piles of stock (invested money) that they had to heavily discount to shift.
When companies like Mantic do everything on Kickstarter and fill the demand before it even gets to the shops, their stuff sits around unbought until it is sold off cheap again.
GW, and I'm no great defender, consistently sell, rarely have to be discounted and make good profit.
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Post by: mrgrigson
Problem 1: competitive players. WH/ 40K/WMH/Infinity attract the kinds of players who will obsess over rules decisions, the latest meta, and all of that. If something shifts and makes a new release a must have for their army, lots of them will buy it. Necromunda and Mordheim appeal because while they're janky and can be unbalanced as hell, they still get an opportunity to use bits and models that they already have. And it's sufficient at scratching that "playing a game just for fun" itch. (edited to add If a game isn't sufficiently defined and has any kind of significant random element whatsoever beyond the probability of dice rolls, they aren't interested. This rules out many games that are less competitive and more casual, like 7TV and the Osprey Books game library. (end edit)
Problem 2: stores. Stores need to move product. They can think that a game looks cool and invest in it, but they may not have the time or wherewithal to promote the game themselves. If the one testing the waters copy goes to someone who reads it and goes "enh", it won't go anywhere else.
Waaaaay back when, my local store was happy to invest in games like Vor and Void, as well as weird little games like Pirates! But that's because the store manager was a painter and gamer himself, and he was happy to bring people in and host painting nights.
I have a half dozen game stores in easy travel distance of me. They all carry GW stuff and D&D focused minis. Crisis Protocol and SW legion have decent representation, WMH has some legacy stuff on the pegs. I know there's a store an hour south that has a solid Bolt Action player base. Other than that, it's all up to some player trying to drum up enough interest so they can get folks to play against.
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Post by: Apple fox
I am always curious to hear what people are playing that isn’t 40k, maybe me need another discussion thread about the other games people enjoy. Sort of like the video game thread about what are you playing?
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Post by: ccs
 Apple fox wrote:I am always curious to hear what people are playing that isn’t 40k, maybe me need another discussion thread about the other games people enjoy. Sort of like the video game thread about what are you playing?
While I do play alot of 40k, I also play:
(No particular order)
Bolt Action
Konflict 47
Battletech
AoS
Old World
WHFB 3e (about once a year)
Legion Imperialis
Bushido (just started)
Flames of War (all versions/eras)
Black Seas
Gaslands
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Post by: LunarSol
Apple fox wrote:I am always curious to hear what people are playing that isn’t 40k, maybe me need another discussion thread about the other games people enjoy. Sort of like the video game thread about what are you playing?
We rotate through a bunch of things, but the games I get most often are the following (in order):
Marvel Crisis Protocol
Warmachine
Star Wars: Shatterpoint
Judgement
Infinity
Malifaux
Probably another half dozen games, mostly dead stuff I try to get in a game a year or so but don't see nearly as much table time as they should and another dozen after that I could technically play but I'm not particularly sad don't get to the table.
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Post by: Platuan4th
I mostly play Heresy, AoS, and Old World, but rotate through a bunch of others with various groups/people:
Bot War
Dystopian Wars 2.5
Konflikt '47
Endless Fantasy Tactics
Trench Crusade
Great Helm
40K 7th(without Formations)
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Post by: The_Real_Chris
Apple fox wrote:I am always curious to hear what people are playing that isn’t 40k, maybe me need another discussion thread about the other games people enjoy. Sort of like the video game thread about what are you playing?
I would say it is more about what new things are you buying and actually playing.
Most of us have a stock of games that can get dusted off and be a blast from the past for a while. Not the same as getting regular play.
And of those new games which are ensemble acts ( SW, 40k, etc.) and which are mostly rulebooks (gaslands, dragon rampant, etc.).
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Post by: Eilif
Apple fox wrote:I am always curious to hear what people are playing that isn’t 40k, maybe me need another discussion thread about the other games people enjoy. Sort of like the video game thread about what are you playing?
Except for one member that plays alot of 40k (organizes Campaigns even) at his local FLGS, we've not played 40k in a LONG time. We've played a ton of different games over the years, but to narrow it down, in the last year or so some members of our small twice-monthly game group (4-6 attendees per meeting) have played the following games at least twice:
ALOT of OPR, and especially Grimdark Future and Age of Fantasy Regiments. Even playing WWW2 with Grimdark.
Space Weirdos
Song of Blades and Heroes
VoidFighter
Mordhiem (Summer 2025 Campaign)
Mech Attack
Alpha Strike
Epic 40k
Blood Bowl
I'm probably forgetting a couple.
We also tried a couple games once including Oathmark. Played Dragon Rampant at least once and will again. We're currently discussing a Necromunda 1995 (Using the NCE rules) campaign for this summer.
All these games are played on good terrain with fully painted minis.
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Post by: Sgt. Cortez
Apple fox wrote:I am always curious to hear what people are playing that isn’t 40k, maybe me need another discussion thread about the other games people enjoy. Sort of like the video game thread about what are you playing?
40k has been replaced by OPR Grimdark Future or GF Firefight.
For fantasy it's lotr or Oathmark
Star Wars Armada is probably my most played game currently.
Star Trek Attack Wing runs on solo mode, but it runs. 
We're currently debating on buying the StarCraft minis to play the StarCraft game, or just to add them to our OPR armies.
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Post by: Apple fox
That’s so cool and a huge variety of games, I can’t comment on them all.
I’m totally into Battletech myself, MCP, Mordheim, Necromunda, shatterpoint. Is currently what gets played regularly here. I am also in three RPG groups, running two and do Solo D&D.
There some other games I do pull out from time to time with inquisitor, which I still think was a great try at a first edition that needed a second. And frostgrave, which maybe doing a campaign this year. I also really like zombie games, which I have several different games for depending on feel.
Infinity I paint a lot, but I mostly watch and do terrain for. But that’s going to change soon!
Space weirdo’s I keep hearing this month but I know nothing about, maybe I need to give it a look.
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Post by: Easy E
Last year I played.....
Heroquest
Kill Team
Blood Bowl
Fury of the Northman
In Strife and Conflict
Castles in the Sky
Restless Sun
Odin's Ravens
This year I have played....
Heroquest
Castles in the Sky
I need to get some more games in!
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Post by: Commodus Leitdorf
hotsauceman1 wrote: Commodus Leitdorf wrote:I think why a lot of games die can also ultimately depend on what a FLGS is willing to support and make time for.
In some places games can die out, while in others they flourish. Just this month my FLGS has events for
One Page Rules
SAGA
Carnevale
This is in addition to regular 40k nights. While these events are not as frequent, maybe they'll have a non GW event every 3 months or so. They do happen.
my store refuses to carry any non- gw wargame, except battletech, and refuses any events for them
Now this sucks. When it comes to stocking games I do get that some stores have to look at their bottom line and stock product they know will move. But stores are also important 3rd spaces for gaming. While a lot of stores don't necessarily have the space for it, it's an important part of actually building a community that will come in and drop $$$ at the store.
I'm luck in that my FLGS started in the basement of a pharmacy. They did such a good job fostering a community they moved to a much bigger space. So much so that even getting a table is something you gotta book a few days/a week in advance.
Right now we have a 6th edition WHFB event in May. There are around 8 of us but for a game that hasn't been official in 20 years I'd say that's a pretty good event we are going to pull off. There's even some talk of a Necromunda campaign so I'd have to get going on putting together a teamm for that too.
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Post by: AegisGrimm
Eilif wrote: Apple fox wrote:I am always curious to hear what people are playing that isn’t 40k, maybe me need another discussion thread about the other games people enjoy. Sort of like the video game thread about what are you playing?
Except for one member that plays alot of 40k (organizes Campaigns even) at his local FLGS, we've not played 40k in a LONG time. We've played a ton of different games over the years, but to narrow it down, in the last year or so some members of our small twice-monthly game group (4-6 attendees per meeting) have played the following games at least twice:
ALOT of OPR, and especially Grimdark Future and Age of Fantasy Regiments. Even playing WWW2 with Grimdark.
Space Weirdos
Song of Blades and Heroes
VoidFighter
Mordhiem (Summer 2025 Campaign)
Mech Attack
Alpha Strike
Epic 40k
Blood Bowl
I'm probably forgetting a couple.
We also tried a couple games once including Oathmark. Played Dragon Rampant at least once and will again. We're currently discussing a Necromunda 1995 (Using the NCE rules) campaign for this summer.
All these games are played on good terrain with fully painted minis.
I always wish I was closer to your area!! I'm interested in about 80% of the "non-mainstream" games your group plays, lol. Here it's almost entirely GW stuff and Battletech - but strictly Classic-only, which is the version I like the least.
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Post by: Apple fox
 AegisGrimm wrote: Eilif wrote: Apple fox wrote:I am always curious to hear what people are playing that isn’t 40k, maybe me need another discussion thread about the other games people enjoy. Sort of like the video game thread about what are you playing?
Except for one member that plays alot of 40k (organizes Campaigns even) at his local FLGS, we've not played 40k in a LONG time. We've played a ton of different games over the years, but to narrow it down, in the last year or so some members of our small twice-monthly game group (4-6 attendees per meeting) have played the following games at least twice:
ALOT of OPR, and especially Grimdark Future and Age of Fantasy Regiments. Even playing WWW2 with Grimdark.
Space Weirdos
Song of Blades and Heroes
VoidFighter
Mordhiem (Summer 2025 Campaign)
Mech Attack
Alpha Strike
Epic 40k
Blood Bowl
I'm probably forgetting a couple.
We also tried a couple games once including Oathmark. Played Dragon Rampant at least once and will again. We're currently discussing a Necromunda 1995 (Using the NCE rules) campaign for this summer.
All these games are played on good terrain with fully painted minis.
I always wish I was closer to your area!! I'm interested in about 80% of the "non-mainstream" games your group plays, lol. Here it's almost entirely GW stuff and Battletech - but strictly Classic-only, which is the version I like the least.
Is it possible to start with something that you can reasonably get everything together on your own and then run games? I started Last days zombie apocalypse with just getting a bunch of zombies and survivors and just running the campaign with anyone that wanted to give it a go.
A lot of people are just not that forward to trying things untill there is no barrier at all. And will spend forever just sitting on the sidelines.
Solo gaming has some advantages in this as well, I did gamma world where I just ran a campaign and let anyone generate a character and jump in.
And I do D&D dungeons at a shop now, where people can just pick the characters they think look cool and enter the dungeon with who ever turned up.
I’m probably going to do the same with Battletech campaign this year, maybe that would work for you? It’s also really good if you can get new players joining in. Since that can make the store really happy. Being friendly and chatting with people and there to offer a game to try goes a very long way in getting a new player.
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Post by: Cyel
hotsauceman1 wrote:
my store refuses to carry any non- gw wargame, except battletech, and refuses any events for them
Than play anywhere else with your friends. There's zero need to have anybody else organise your games for you. Organise them yourself like you would any other thing in your life. You don't wait for your local meat shop to organise a barbecue so that you can have one? Or a local bike shop to organise a cycling competition so that you can have a bike trip?
Not being able to buy a certain game from a shelf in a b&m store in the age of the internet is an even weirder complaint.
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Post by: Da Boss
I play LOTR SBG, OPR Grimdark Future and Kings of War.
I'm keen to get a game of Midgard in, and some games of Xenos Rampant and Lion Rampant. Also very interested in Mech Attack and Battletech Alpha Strike.
I do everything myself for my games, including painting both armies and making all the terrain. I just recruit friends who might be interested to play with me, so I favour simple games that are easy for non-wargamers to learn.
So a lot of times what I play is lower complexity than maybe my taste really is, but there are a lot of great accessible games available these days.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Since New Years I've played Epic Warpath, Necropolis, and OPR Age of Fantasy.
Gearing up for Quar (Clash of Rhyfles) right now, and hoping to get some Turnip28 and Horus Heresy action this year too.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Cyel wrote: hotsauceman1 wrote:
my store refuses to carry any non- gw wargame, except battletech, and refuses any events for them
Than play anywhere else with your friends. There's zero need to have anybody else organise your games for you. Organise them yourself like you would any other thing in your life. You don't wait for your local meat shop to organise a barbecue so that you can have one? Or a local bike shop to organise a cycling competition so that you can have a bike trip?
Not being able to buy a certain game from a shelf in a b&m store in the age of the internet is an even weirder complaint.
our other options are stores run by a literal crook and worst person alive i have met or drive 45 minute
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Post by: Cyel
hotsauceman1 wrote:Cyel wrote: hotsauceman1 wrote:
my store refuses to carry any non- gw wargame, except battletech, and refuses any events for them
Than play anywhere else with your friends. There's zero need to have anybody else organise your games for you. Organise them yourself like you would any other thing in your life. You don't wait for your local meat shop to organise a barbecue so that you can have one? Or a local bike shop to organise a cycling competition so that you can have a bike trip?
Not being able to buy a certain game from a shelf in a b&m store in the age of the internet is an even weirder complaint.
our other options are stores run by a literal crook and worst person alive i have met or drive 45 minute
Why does it have to be stores, though? They are probably the worst place to play anyway. At homes, in gardens, in clubs, in gaming cafes, outdoors, libraries, local culture centres, schools or office spaces after hours. I've played in all of those places and every single one is better than a store.
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Post by: Sabotage!
I think a lot of it just depends on where you are at. My metro area is loaded with people playing a ton of different games at different stores. I was at one of the big LGS last weekend to play a game of Classic Battletech with some friends (something I pretty much never do), and there were a few games of 40k being played, probably half a dozen of Shatterpoint, another couple Battletech games and about 15(!) Warcry games, alongside a couple games of Trench Crusade and a few other things I didn't see.
I know in my gaming group we probably play Battletech Alpha Strike the most, but we have been playing BLKOUT, 1490 Doom, and have just started getting into Halo (I really don't care about the IP, but it's a really fun casual game). In addition I'm going to be playing a few games of Relicblade with a buddy here soon, and am making a Necropolis force to play with a different buddy.
In the hobby store I frequent, Battletech and Blood Bowl seem to be the most frequently played games. I'm sure they exist, but I really don't see stores where 40k is the most played game in my area.
For me the big hurdle is getting people to play mini-agnostic games. I have a bunch of painted minis (and ones that want paint) waiting for Space Weirdos or A Song of Blades and Heroes paint, but it's a tough ask around here for people to play a game without a dedicated range.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Cyel wrote: hotsauceman1 wrote:Cyel wrote: hotsauceman1 wrote:
my store refuses to carry any non- gw wargame, except battletech, and refuses any events for them
Than play anywhere else with your friends. There's zero need to have anybody else organise your games for you. Organise them yourself like you would any other thing in your life. You don't wait for your local meat shop to organise a barbecue so that you can have one? Or a local bike shop to organise a cycling competition so that you can have a bike trip?
Not being able to buy a certain game from a shelf in a b&m store in the age of the internet is an even weirder complaint.
our other options are stores run by a literal crook and worst person alive i have met or drive 45 minute
Why does it have to be stores, though? They are probably the worst place to play anyway. At homes, in gardens, in clubs, in gaming cafes, outdoors, libraries, local culture centres, schools or office spaces after hours. I've played in all of those places and every single one is better than a store.
Stores are where tournaments, leagues, events and game nights occur.
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Post by: aphyon
 Easy E wrote:I think the popularity of secondary games varies a lot by region.
Quite true, it is also how much effort you or your group of friends put the effort in to build support the other games. Gaming is a niche market to begin with and it is further divided by so much choice. the problem is most people don't know anything other than current GW games.
Aside from our group playing old world, MCP and classic battle tech pretty much every game we play is no longer supported.
In our group we have active players for-
.retro 40K 3rd-7th ed
.infinity mostly N2/3
.warmachine MKIII
. BFG
.victory at sea (mongoose version)
.Babylon 5 wars (and it's mods for star wars/star trek using attack wing & armada minis)
.castles in the sky
.MONPOC
.DUST 1947
.heavy gear
.epic 40k
Peripherally rare games i am aware of but are not actively played at my local game store-
.kingdom death
.flames of war
.team yankee
.beyond the gates of antares
.star wars legion
.malifaux
.warpath
.kings of war
.star wars shatter point
.dropzone/dropfleet commander
.gas land
.trench crusade
And that right there is the problem....26 different games for a small community to choose from while one is more promoted than any others and that one also has the highest buy in cost. so funds/time are constrained for most other games, especially for those who don't have the kind of time i do to play every weekend. they tend to have 1 game and nothing else. where people like me have an entire game(bed)room in my house full of totes of armies and terrain for a dozen different games systems.
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Post by: Cyel
hotsauceman1 wrote:Cyel wrote:
Why does it have to be stores, though? They are probably the worst place to play anyway. At homes, in gardens, in clubs, in gaming cafes, outdoors, libraries, local culture centres, schools or office spaces after hours. I've played in all of those places and every single one is better than a store.
Stores are where tournaments, leagues, events and game nights occur.
Are they? Most tournaments I ever organised or attended were in school halls. Best place to organise a narrative event/campaign is probably at home (wouldn't want random participants derail such an event that relies on engagement). All such events in my long wargaming career, including long megabattles and even longer campaigns have been home affairs. Leagues are also easier to organise without the constraints of a shop.
I also played tournaments in all the aforementioned places apart from office spaces after hours (only games with friends there). A memorable one was in the garden of a XIX century palace (which also serves as the local culture centre in the small town where it is located so in case of rain the event could be moved inside).
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Post by: Eilif
Cyel wrote: hotsauceman1 wrote:Cyel wrote:
Why does it have to be stores, though? They are probably the worst place to play anyway. At homes, in gardens, in clubs, in gaming cafes, outdoors, libraries, local culture centres, schools or office spaces after hours. I've played in all of those places and every single one is better than a store.
Stores are where tournaments, leagues, events and game nights occur.
Are they? Most tournaments I ever organised or attended were in school halls. Best place to organise a narrative event/campaign is probably at home (wouldn't want random participants derail such an event that relies on engagement). All such events in my long wargaming career, including long megabattles and even longer campaigns have been home affairs. Leagues are also easier to organise without the constraints of a shop.
I also played tournaments in all the aforementioned places apart from office spaces after hours (only games with friends there). A memorable one was in the garden of a XIX century palace (which also serves as the local culture centre in the small town where it is located so in case of rain the event could be moved inside).
I do think that Stores are where most tournaments and leagues occur, but it's likely that most game nights and campaigns happen outside of stores. There just aren't that many stores compared to the number of gamers.
My twice monthly gaming group has done 90%+ of our gaming in homes for the last decade or so. We occasionally game at a local game-themed restaurant and once in a great while we'll do a game night at a shop just for fun, but we have zero reliance on any commercial venue to sustain our group.
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Post by: Easy E
From personal experience, you won't have a store in an area unless you have a existing group of customers. Therefore, you need to create a community that has games and tournaments before. The store existing is an outcome of having a good community, the store won't start the community.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Cyel wrote: hotsauceman1 wrote:Cyel wrote:
Why does it have to be stores, though? They are probably the worst place to play anyway. At homes, in gardens, in clubs, in gaming cafes, outdoors, libraries, local culture centres, schools or office spaces after hours. I've played in all of those places and every single one is better than a store.
Stores are where tournaments, leagues, events and game nights occur.
Are they? Most tournaments I ever organised or attended were in school halls. Best place to organise a narrative event/campaign is probably at home (wouldn't want random participants derail such an event that relies on engagement). All such events in my long wargaming career, including long megabattles and even longer campaigns have been home affairs. Leagues are also easier to organise without the constraints of a shop.
I also played tournaments in all the aforementioned places apart from office spaces after hours (only games with friends there). A memorable one was in the garden of a XIX century palace (which also serves as the local culture centre in the small town where it is located so in case of rain the event could be moved inside).
we used to organize small leagues out of local spaces like my hoa poolhouse, local moose lodge, but insurance and event fees killed us. it would be like 150$ for insurance for the event.
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Post by: Cyel
Oh, that's indeed harsh!
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Post by: durecellrabbit
We paid about that in £, however it covered our club for the year.
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Post by: odinsgrandson
hotsauceman1 wrote:
Did GW really kill that market? was it outside forces like the state of the ecnomy and time?
The peak era that you remember for Warmachine, Confrontation, X-Wing, Infinity, Malifaux was also an era when Games Workshop was bad. Their corporate focus was on cutting costs and downsizing to min max the spread sheets and the games really suffered for it.
There are a few things that changed that:
- Crowdfunding proved to work better for board games than tabletop games. So a lot of innovators with tabletop backgrounds started making board games. For a good number of players, miniatures board games took over the role of 'third' game. And one nice thing about these is that only one person in a group has to own the game (rather than collecting armies separately).
- Games Workshop changed leadership and started supporting 3rd games like Blood Bowl again. They also released a number of new smaller scale games (competing with those mentioned above).
- Asmodee started exerting control on hobby store distribution. Games Workshop has long since established their own distribution so they were able to dodge that grenade, but this was bad news for a lot of others (many have gone to online distribution only- and that's no path to be the Third Game).
All that said, there are still some other cool tabletop miniatures games around right now- but what the 'Third Game' is will vary from area to area.
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Post by: lord of corn
Cyel wrote: hotsauceman1 wrote:Cyel wrote:
Why does it have to be stores, though? They are probably the worst place to play anyway. At homes, in gardens, in clubs, in gaming cafes, outdoors, libraries, local culture centres, schools or office spaces after hours. I've played in all of those places and every single one is better than a store.
Stores are where tournaments, leagues, events and game nights occur.
Are they? Most tournaments I ever organised or attended were in school halls. Best place to organise a narrative event/campaign is probably at home (wouldn't want random participants derail such an event that relies on engagement). All such events in my long wargaming career, including long megabattles and even longer campaigns have been home affairs. Leagues are also easier to organise without the constraints of a shop.
I also played tournaments in all the aforementioned places apart from office spaces after hours (only games with friends there). A memorable one was in the garden of a XIX century palace (which also serves as the local culture centre in the small town where it is located so in case of rain the event could be moved inside).
It's likely a cultural thing, I would bet most players in the US don't have free or easy access to a lot of those places especially for the amount of space required for a tabletop wargame, and gaming clubs and cultural centres arent really a thing here. in my experience the only real viable places for gaming is in stores or at home and home is only an option for people I have already gotten to know not pick up games.
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Post by: Ashiraya
It's not really the subforum for going into it in depth, but from what I can tell from various articles, the death of the "third place" (places other than home and school/work where you can spend your time) in the United States is a major topic in recent years, especially spaces where you can exist without the expectation of spending money.
People spend much more time at home than they used to.
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Post by: Pacific
 odinsgrandson wrote: hotsauceman1 wrote:
Did GW really kill that market? was it outside forces like the state of the ecnomy and time?
The peak era that you remember for Warmachine, Confrontation, X-Wing, Infinity, Malifaux was also an era when Games Workshop was bad. Their corporate focus was on cutting costs and downsizing to min max the spread sheets and the games really suffered for it..
I think this was a big part of it, around the late 00s/early 10s. Anecdotally I really got into some non- GW games as they brought in a RoW sales ban, I lived in a country with no GW store - I could no longer do a big Wayland Games order and so was forced to try other games.
Although I question the whole premise of this thread. 40k is undeniably the big dog of the industry, but there are lots of other games doing well - go to somewhere like Salute and you will see how varied that industry is, probably more so now than at any time in the past, with some games still available for many years. Something like Bolt Action might not hit the sales volumes, but I can go to almost club or store in the UK and find a gaming group for them. Dakka was and always will be a 40k-centred forum, and so you won't ever get the full and wider picture here.
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Post by: LunarSol
I get the impression the OP's FLGS has turned particularly hostile against everything that's not 40k.
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Post by: Platuan4th
 lord of corn wrote:in my experience the only real viable places for gaming is in stores or at home and home is only an option for people I have already gotten to know not pick up games.
I think part of the reason and probably the bigger discussion is around the death of the pick up game culture in general as things like Facebook and Discord groups grow. At least in the US, pre-scheduled games are the norm these days vs the older style of third space hang out and seeing who shows up to play.
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Post by: Easy E
 Ashiraya wrote:It's not really the subforum for going into it in depth, but from what I can tell from various articles, the death of the "third place" (places other than home and school/work where you can spend your time) in the United States is a major topic in recent years, especially spaces where you can exist without the expectation of spending money.
People spend much more time at home than they used to.
This thread details a lot of alternatives 3rd spaces to use and how to start a wargaming community in places without stores:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/816544.page
It maybe of use to the OP. However, when trying to build a community it is not a small undertaking. Hence, why people like to use existing stores or clubs because that is the "easy" button. I do not blame anyone for doing that.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
LunarSol wrote:
I get the impression the OP's FLGS has turned particularly hostile against everything that's not 40k.
it very much has, The store has a very strict no open play policy if an event is going on(Even is said event has 4 people alongside being required to pay to play.
There is also no open play nights at all, they used to have it, but shoved it to Saturday nights when there wasnt a magic events( IDK about you but more often then not my Saturdays are booked.
the store owner onces said that people who come but dont play games with their friends are "Stealing his air conditioning"
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Post by: LunarSol
It's my experience that store owners who make it a point to make customers feel unwelcome are generally on the way out of business. I've regularly taken this as a sign to start building a life raft to keep the community going once they inevitably shut down until the next place comes along.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
LunarSol wrote:It's my experience that store owners who make it a point to make customers feel unwelcome are generally on the way out of business. I've regularly taken this as a sign to start building a life raft to keep the community going once they inevitably shut down until the next place comes along.
He has been in business for over 20 years, even wrote a book about running a game store
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Post by: Easy E
Well, as a former small business owner myself; I am convinced that most do not make it past 5 years for a simple reason. It's not money. They simply get sick of dealing with their own customers.
After 20 years, this guy actually is really sick of his own customers. I can't blame him. Hell is other people, and the Duke's of Hell play at the store.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Easy E wrote:Well, as a former small business owner myself; I am convinced that most do not make it past 5 years for a simple reason. It's not money. They simply get sick of dealing with their own customers.
After 20 years, this guy actually is really sick of his own customers. I can't blame him. Hell is other people, and the Duke's of Hell play at the store.
i legit think he hates his customers, he has so many anti-consumer policies its sickening.
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Post by: LunarSol
Easy E wrote:Well, as a former small business owner myself; I am convinced that most do not make it past 5 years for a simple reason. It's not money. They simply get sick of dealing with their own customers.
After 20 years, this guy actually is really sick of his own customers. I can't blame him. Hell is other people, and the Duke's of Hell play at the store.
This has been my experience growing up in the restaurant business. Most of the time its really not that they fail. It's just that they stop being fun and turn into way more of a grind.
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Post by: Platuan4th
LunarSol wrote: It's just that they stop being fun and turn into way more of a grind.
This is exactly why they tell you not to make your hobby your job.
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Post by: lord of corn
 Pacific wrote: odinsgrandson wrote: hotsauceman1 wrote:
Although I question the whole premise of this thread. 40k is undeniably the big dog of the industry, but there are lots of other games doing well - go to somewhere like Salute and you will see how varied that industry is, probably more so now than at any time in the past, with some games still available for many years. Something like Bolt Action might not hit the sales volumes, but I can go to almost club or store in the UK and find a gaming group for them. Dakka was and always will be a 40k-centred forum, and so you won't ever get the full and wider picture here.
I tend to agree that this feels localized to their local store to some degree, just from my anecdotal evidence last year I participated in a weekly warcry night, Kill team, and two three month long weekly Necromunda campaigns with 10-12 players each. Also battletech seems to be huge here with at least 8-10 players on battletech nights, same with infinity. if anything ive noticed that a lot of skirmish level games have taken over, hell ive probably witnessed more people playing Spearhead games than full on AoS
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Post by: Apple fox
hotsauceman1 wrote: LunarSol wrote:
I get the impression the OP's FLGS has turned particularly hostile against everything that's not 40k.
it very much has, The store has a very strict no open play policy if an event is going on(Even is said event has 4 people alongside being required to pay to play.
There is also no open play nights at all, they used to have it, but shoved it to Saturday nights when there wasnt a magic events( IDK about you but more often then not my Saturdays are booked.
the store owner onces said that people who come but dont play games with their friends are "Stealing his air conditioning"
Saturday is a good night for open play, when a lot of players maybe free. Is it that only certain games can be played Saturday? They probably lack the space to do a lot unless there events are small. The don’t play games is weird, since I assume they buy drinks and snacks if available? I sometimes paint at our local store, sometimes I teach children to paint and play. sometimes I turn up hours early to set up and relax. Never been an issue for our store owner.
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Post by: Will_Power
 Platuan4th wrote: LunarSol wrote: It's just that they stop being fun and turn into way more of a grind.
This is exactly why they tell you not to make your hobby your job.
+1 to that.
Oooof. Automatically Appended Next Post: Pacific wrote:Although I question the whole premise of this thread. 40k is undeniably the big dog of the industry, but there are lots of other games doing well - go to somewhere like Salute and you will see how varied that industry is, probably more so now than at any time in the past, with some games still available for many years. Something like Bolt Action might not hit the sales volumes, but I can go to almost club or store in the UK and find a gaming group for them. Dakka was and always will be a 40k-centred forum, and so you won't ever get the full and wider picture here.
I'm not sure I'd look at big conventions like Salute - or Adepticon here in the States - as representative of the wargames/miniatures playing market as it is an aspirational marketing space for the designers, publishers, and manufacturers.
I love that there's so much cool stuff that shows up online and at the conventions, but that absolutely does not translate to what you're likely to be able to find other players for in any given local context.
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Post by: Easy E
It could be argued that if you lump Historicals into one category, that is bigger than GW.
However, putting "historicals" together is a very, very broad brush.
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Post by: Eilif
Easy E wrote:It could be argued that if you lump Historicals into one category, that is bigger than GW.
GW is measured in the billions. You could combine every historical miniature company and game into one and it still wouldn't come close. GW is simply massive.
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Post by: Apple fox
Eilif wrote: Easy E wrote:It could be argued that if you lump Historicals into one category, that is bigger than GW.
GW is measured in the billions. You could combine every historical miniature company and game into one and it still wouldn't come close. GW is simply massive.
I would be curious just to know where it stands, since a lot of historical companies do seem to do really well with only a small number of kits. Releasing 1 or 2 a month but doing just fine. So they must have a wide reach even if there teams are small.
But it does put GW in perspective considering it is simply soo huge for the little niche.
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Post by: emanuelb
Regarding the question of why do some many games fizzle out, my simple answer would be - because there's too many of them. Too many games are released each year, everyone and their dog is writing a ruleset these days, while the wargaming community remains relatively small (compared to other hobbies). So naturally, it has to be a selection process.
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Post by: Lovejoy
Easy E wrote:It could be argued that if you lump Historicals into one category, that is bigger than GW.
I'm not certain this is true; I'd say Warlord are probably the biggest player, and their 2022 accounts showed a turnover of £15m, whereas GW are in the £300 to £400m range.
And most historical manufacturers are smaller than Warlord by orders of magnitude; many of them aren't even VAT registered, so turnover of less than £85k pa.
It's possible all together they could reach GW levels of turnover, but I honestly doubt it.
Apple fox wrote:I would be curious just to know where it stands, since a lot of historical companies do seem to do really well with only a small number of kits. Releasing 1 or 2 a month but doing just fine. So they must have a wide reach even if there teams are small.
It's always difficult to say how well they are doing. I used to sculpt freelance for a lot of historical companies, and they were generally run as weekend businesses, on top of a regular day job.
Two of them at least were being run at a loss, with the losses offset against profits from their main business.
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Post by: Apple fox
 Lovejoy wrote:Easy E wrote:It could be argued that if you lump Historicals into one category, that is bigger than GW.
I'm not certain this is true; I'd say Warlord are probably the biggest player, and their 2022 accounts showed a turnover of £15m, whereas GW are in the £300 to £400m range.
And most historical manufacturers are smaller than Warlord by orders of magnitude; many of them aren't even VAT registered, so turnover of less than £85k pa.
It's possible all together they could reach GW levels of turnover, but I honestly doubt it.
Apple fox wrote:I would be curious just to know where it stands, since a lot of historical companies do seem to do really well with only a small number of kits. Releasing 1 or 2 a month but doing just fine. So they must have a wide reach even if there teams are small.
It's always difficult to say how well they are doing. I used to sculpt freelance for a lot of historical companies, and they were generally run as weekend businesses, on top of a regular day job.
Two of them at least were being run at a loss, with the losses offset against profits from their main business.
that all makes sense, there is a lot of little company that is just doing there own thing and surviving it seems.
I wonder how much GW makes on book sales as well. They seem to be doing even more books now than they used to for there games.
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Post by: kirotheavenger
In my experience the "second game" varies by club.
In almost every club 40k is their #1 mainstay that's always got several tables.
But then one club might have a regular game or two of Bloodbowl perhaps, another might have regular games of Mordheim, etc etc.
Usually the 40k players only play 40k. But then the 'not-40k' players tend to be the same people. IE it's the same people playing Bloodbowl as Mordheim, and they likely play 40k as well. This means there's only really room for a single 'second game' as players are busy playing Mordheim. Maybe the 'second game' will oscillate year-on-year as those people will play Mordheim for a year, then a Bloodbowl league the next, then move on to Moonstone or something.
For whatever reason 40k has a really tight grip on its players. The vast majority of 40k players have only touched 40k and will only ever touch 40k and refuse to even entertain the idea of another game.
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Post by: Eilif
Apple fox wrote:
I wonder how much GW makes on book sales as well. They seem to be doing even more books now than they used to for there games.
GW seems to have cracked the code in the last 15 years and gone from being a gaming company with some books to a full fledged publisher. Black Library is huge for a private imprint, and somehow GW convinced it's players to pony up for hardcover codices and sub codices every edition.
The book buying carousel was a big reason I decided to get off the 40K ride. Every edition I was looking at $300-400 in books I'd have to purchase just to keep playing the armies I already had. "Current armies will be playable in the new edition" only lasts a few months until they get around to publishing a new codex.
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Post by: Apple fox
Eilif wrote: Apple fox wrote:
I wonder how much GW makes on book sales as well. They seem to be doing even more books now than they used to for there games.
GW seems to have cracked the code in the last 15 years and gone from being a gaming company with some books to a full fledged publisher. Black Library is huge for a private imprint, and somehow GW convinced it's players to pony up for hardcover codices and sub codices every edition.
The book buying carousel was a big reason I decided to get off the 40K ride. Every edition I was looking at $300-400 in books I'd have to purchase just to keep playing the armies I already had. "Current armies will be playable in the new edition" only lasts a few months until they get around to publishing a new codex.
Just looked, there was 500+ 40K books or collections. That’s easily in small publishers, huge for wargaming! Then codex’s. GW has got magic for sure.
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