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 LunarSol wrote:


As much as we like to blame unpopular rule changes for these things, the reality is its usually more of a business failing. For all the finger pointing, what really killed Privateer was failing to manage its distribution partners. They made a game that just couldn't be stocked in the average store. There were so many SKUs that had all largely been hugely devalued by online discounters including an absolute glut of niche, expensive kits that most of their business shifted to online sales. While good for the player, it meant that they didn't have a reliable way of getting big initial purchases and the game wasn't reaching new players who pick it up off the shelves. The main reason cited for selling to SFG was simply to gain access to the distribution network SFG had created by getting their board games on store shelves. PP couldn't do it themselves anymore because all those bridges had been burned.

I'd add Star Wars Armada and Star Trek Attack Wing to that. Even before they cancelled Armada some kits were already going for insane prices (Rebel squadrons, Venator) on ebay because they've apparently never been reproduced.
With Attack Wing you had the problem that Wizkids were producing stuff once and then it was pretty much gone. So if you joined the game later on you'd be missing out on stuff from before.
Attack Wing is still going and everything they've produced in the last ten years, game wize, was pretty much fine. But it was always hard to get. Kits would need more than a year to become available in retail in europe, by that time players already found their own ways to get stuff from the USA (because you'd never know if kits would actually be available over here). As a result the playerbase has pretty much dried up.

 Robert Facepalmer wrote:


What hidden gem of the 80s-90s have I forgotten? It must have been truly underground if I can't think of some random blister back, book, supplement, ad from WD/Dungeon/Dragon/Pyramid, or con booth discount bin.

Clan War, Stargrunt, B5 Wars.

 insaniak wrote:
There have been a lot of mini agnostic offerings over the years. They've failed due to (I suspect) a lack of sufficient exposure and lack of an attention-grabbing setting... Because, as proven by GW quite successfully over the years, the quality of your rules is ultimately much less important than how much people are drawn to the game setting.

Couldn't agree more.

Quality of rules has absolutely nothing to do with its success.

I have probably seen one game of Flintloque being played, which is more than i can say for Dark Heaven or a bunch of other 'also rans'.

I am going to be using my flintloque models for silver bayonet

I think why a lot of games die can also ultimately depend on what a FLGS is willing to support and make time for.

In some places games can die out, while in others they flourish. Just this month my FLGS has events for

One Page Rules
SAGA
Carnevale

This is in addition to regular 40k nights. While these events are not as frequent, maybe they'll have a non GW event every 3 months or so. They do happen.

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
I think why a lot of games die can also ultimately depend on what a FLGS is willing to support and make time for.

In some places games can die out, while in others they flourish. Just this month my FLGS has events for

One Page Rules
SAGA
Carnevale

This is in addition to regular 40k nights. While these events are not as frequent, maybe they'll have a non GW event every 3 months or so. They do happen.

my store refuses to carry any non-gw wargame, except battletech, and refuses any events for them

A lot of stores are bad. Most of them blame their customers too.

 LunarSol wrote:
A lot of stores are bad. Most of them blame their customers too.

the funny thing is my local store is known asmong the store community for being well known well run store. But the problem is, a well run store for the owner, doesnt always mean a good store for the customer

Well stores are in it for the money obviously. If they lose money and upset customers every time a game folds or supplies for that game are not adequate etc... they will avoid them in the future.

People keep saying its better now... Salute before Covid and now... Thats a good indication how small Indies are just not bothering doing it anymore.

Second games were always there and a strong alternative... now it's just another boardgame, splash game, go print it yourself etc. It's just a quick cash grab and that does not really goes well with longterm investment required for war-games.

Confrontation, Hell dorado, anima tactics, Warhammerhordes, FOW just a few of the things with actual wide catalogues and products that simply gone. I cannot even start naming the dozens of indie games and ranges that simply vanished in silence in the last few years. It's just too many of them.

My local shop is very good, very friendly staff and really broad stock.

But you can see when they've been burned by games in the past - when PP collapsed and had massive supply issues in Europe, every shop in Germany was left sitting on piles of stock (invested money) that they had to heavily discount to shift.

When companies like Mantic do everything on Kickstarter and fill the demand before it even gets to the shops, their stuff sits around unbought until it is sold off cheap again.

GW, and I'm no great defender, consistently sell, rarely have to be discounted and make good profit.

Problem 1: competitive players. WH/40K/WMH/Infinity attract the kinds of players who will obsess over rules decisions, the latest meta, and all of that. If something shifts and makes a new release a must have for their army, lots of them will buy it. Necromunda and Mordheim appeal because while they're janky and can be unbalanced as hell, they still get an opportunity to use bits and models that they already have. And it's sufficient at scratching that "playing a game just for fun" itch. (edited to add If a game isn't sufficiently defined and has any kind of significant random element whatsoever beyond the probability of dice rolls, they aren't interested. This rules out many games that are less competitive and more casual, like 7TV and the Osprey Books game library. (end edit)

Problem 2: stores. Stores need to move product. They can think that a game looks cool and invest in it, but they may not have the time or wherewithal to promote the game themselves. If the one testing the waters copy goes to someone who reads it and goes "enh", it won't go anywhere else.

Waaaaay back when, my local store was happy to invest in games like Vor and Void, as well as weird little games like Pirates! But that's because the store manager was a painter and gamer himself, and he was happy to bring people in and host painting nights.

I have a half dozen game stores in easy travel distance of me. They all carry GW stuff and D&D focused minis. Crisis Protocol and SW legion have decent representation, WMH has some legacy stuff on the pegs. I know there's a store an hour south that has a solid Bolt Action player base. Other than that, it's all up to some player trying to drum up enough interest so they can get folks to play against.

I am always curious to hear what people are playing that isn’t 40k, maybe me need another discussion thread about the other games people enjoy. Sort of like the video game thread about what are you playing?

 Apple fox wrote:
I am always curious to hear what people are playing that isn’t 40k, maybe me need another discussion thread about the other games people enjoy. Sort of like the video game thread about what are you playing?

While I do play alot of 40k, I also play:
(No particular order)
Bolt Action
Konflict 47
Battletech
AoS
Old World
WHFB 3e (about once a year)
Legion Imperialis
Bushido (just started)
Flames of War (all versions/eras)
Black Seas
Gaslands

 Apple fox wrote:
I am always curious to hear what people are playing that isn’t 40k, maybe me need another discussion thread about the other games people enjoy. Sort of like the video game thread about what are you playing?

We rotate through a bunch of things, but the games I get most often are the following (in order):

Marvel Crisis Protocol
Warmachine
Star Wars: Shatterpoint
Judgement
Infinity
Malifaux

Probably another half dozen games, mostly dead stuff I try to get in a game a year or so but don't see nearly as much table time as they should and another dozen after that I could technically play but I'm not particularly sad don't get to the table.

I mostly play Heresy, AoS, and Old World, but rotate through a bunch of others with various groups/people:

Bot War
Dystopian Wars 2.5
Konflikt '47
Endless Fantasy Tactics
Trench Crusade
Great Helm
40K 7th(without Formations)

 Apple fox wrote:
I am always curious to hear what people are playing that isn’t 40k, maybe me need another discussion thread about the other games people enjoy. Sort of like the video game thread about what are you playing?

I would say it is more about what new things are you buying and actually playing.

Most of us have a stock of games that can get dusted off and be a blast from the past for a while. Not the same as getting regular play.

And of those new games which are ensemble acts (SW, 40k, etc.) and which are mostly rulebooks (gaslands, dragon rampant, etc.).

 Apple fox wrote:
I am always curious to hear what people are playing that isn’t 40k, maybe me need another discussion thread about the other games people enjoy. Sort of like the video game thread about what are you playing?

Except for one member that plays alot of 40k (organizes Campaigns even) at his local FLGS, we've not played 40k in a LONG time. We've played a ton of different games over the years, but to narrow it down, in the last year or so some members of our small twice-monthly game group (4-6 attendees per meeting) have played the following games at least twice:

ALOT of OPR, and especially Grimdark Future and Age of Fantasy Regiments. Even playing WWW2 with Grimdark.
Space Weirdos
Song of Blades and Heroes
VoidFighter
Mordhiem (Summer 2025 Campaign)
Mech Attack
Alpha Strike
Epic 40k
Blood Bowl
I'm probably forgetting a couple.

We also tried a couple games once including Oathmark. Played Dragon Rampant at least once and will again. We're currently discussing a Necromunda 1995 (Using the NCE rules) campaign for this summer.

All these games are played on good terrain with fully painted minis.

 Apple fox wrote:
I am always curious to hear what people are playing that isn’t 40k, maybe me need another discussion thread about the other games people enjoy. Sort of like the video game thread about what are you playing?

40k has been replaced by OPR Grimdark Future or GF Firefight.

For fantasy it's lotr or Oathmark
Star Wars Armada is probably my most played game currently.
Star Trek Attack Wing runs on solo mode, but it runs.

We're currently debating on buying the StarCraft minis to play the StarCraft game, or just to add them to our OPR armies.

That’s so cool and a huge variety of games, I can’t comment on them all.
I’m totally into Battletech myself, MCP, Mordheim, Necromunda, shatterpoint. Is currently what gets played regularly here. I am also in three RPG groups, running two and do Solo D&D.

There some other games I do pull out from time to time with inquisitor, which I still think was a great try at a first edition that needed a second. And frostgrave, which maybe doing a campaign this year. I also really like zombie games, which I have several different games for depending on feel.

Infinity I paint a lot, but I mostly watch and do terrain for. But that’s going to change soon!

Space weirdo’s I keep hearing this month but I know nothing about, maybe I need to give it a look.

Last year I played.....

Heroquest
Kill Team
Blood Bowl
Fury of the Northman
In Strife and Conflict
Castles in the Sky
Restless Sun
Odin's Ravens

This year I have played....

Heroquest
Castles in the Sky

I need to get some more games in!

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
I think why a lot of games die can also ultimately depend on what a FLGS is willing to support and make time for.

In some places games can die out, while in others they flourish. Just this month my FLGS has events for

One Page Rules
SAGA
Carnevale

This is in addition to regular 40k nights. While these events are not as frequent, maybe they'll have a non GW event every 3 months or so. They do happen.

my store refuses to carry any non-gw wargame, except battletech, and refuses any events for them

Now this sucks. When it comes to stocking games I do get that some stores have to look at their bottom line and stock product they know will move. But stores are also important 3rd spaces for gaming. While a lot of stores don't necessarily have the space for it, it's an important part of actually building a community that will come in and drop $$$ at the store.

I'm luck in that my FLGS started in the basement of a pharmacy. They did such a good job fostering a community they moved to a much bigger space. So much so that even getting a table is something you gotta book a few days/a week in advance.

Right now we have a 6th edition WHFB event in May. There are around 8 of us but for a game that hasn't been official in 20 years I'd say that's a pretty good event we are going to pull off. There's even some talk of a Necromunda campaign so I'd have to get going on putting together a teamm for that too.

 Eilif wrote:

 Apple fox wrote:
I am always curious to hear what people are playing that isn’t 40k, maybe me need another discussion thread about the other games people enjoy. Sort of like the video game thread about what are you playing?

Except for one member that plays alot of 40k (organizes Campaigns even) at his local FLGS, we've not played 40k in a LONG time. We've played a ton of different games over the years, but to narrow it down, in the last year or so some members of our small twice-monthly game group (4-6 attendees per meeting) have played the following games at least twice:

ALOT of OPR, and especially Grimdark Future and Age of Fantasy Regiments. Even playing WWW2 with Grimdark.
Space Weirdos
Song of Blades and Heroes
VoidFighter
Mordhiem (Summer 2025 Campaign)
Mech Attack
Alpha Strike
Epic 40k
Blood Bowl
I'm probably forgetting a couple.

We also tried a couple games once including Oathmark. Played Dragon Rampant at least once and will again. We're currently discussing a Necromunda 1995 (Using the NCE rules) campaign for this summer.

All these games are played on good terrain with fully painted minis.

I always wish I was closer to your area!! I'm interested in about 80% of the "non-mainstream" games your group plays, lol. Here it's almost entirely GW stuff and Battletech - but strictly Classic-only, which is the version I like the least.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

 Apple fox wrote:
I am always curious to hear what people are playing that isn’t 40k, maybe me need another discussion thread about the other games people enjoy. Sort of like the video game thread about what are you playing?

Except for one member that plays alot of 40k (organizes Campaigns even) at his local FLGS, we've not played 40k in a LONG time. We've played a ton of different games over the years, but to narrow it down, in the last year or so some members of our small twice-monthly game group (4-6 attendees per meeting) have played the following games at least twice:

ALOT of OPR, and especially Grimdark Future and Age of Fantasy Regiments. Even playing WWW2 with Grimdark.
Space Weirdos
Song of Blades and Heroes
VoidFighter
Mordhiem (Summer 2025 Campaign)
Mech Attack
Alpha Strike
Epic 40k
Blood Bowl
I'm probably forgetting a couple.

We also tried a couple games once including Oathmark. Played Dragon Rampant at least once and will again. We're currently discussing a Necromunda 1995 (Using the NCE rules) campaign for this summer.

All these games are played on good terrain with fully painted minis.

I always wish I was closer to your area!! I'm interested in about 80% of the "non-mainstream" games your group plays, lol. Here it's almost entirely GW stuff and Battletech - but strictly Classic-only, which is the version I like the least.

Is it possible to start with something that you can reasonably get everything together on your own and then run games? I started Last days zombie apocalypse with just getting a bunch of zombies and survivors and just running the campaign with anyone that wanted to give it a go.
A lot of people are just not that forward to trying things untill there is no barrier at all. And will spend forever just sitting on the sidelines.
Solo gaming has some advantages in this as well, I did gamma world where I just ran a campaign and let anyone generate a character and jump in.
And I do D&D dungeons at a shop now, where people can just pick the characters they think look cool and enter the dungeon with who ever turned up.
I’m probably going to do the same with Battletech campaign this year, maybe that would work for you? It’s also really good if you can get new players joining in. Since that can make the store really happy. Being friendly and chatting with people and there to offer a game to try goes a very long way in getting a new player.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

my store refuses to carry any non-gw wargame, except battletech, and refuses any events for them

Than play anywhere else with your friends. There's zero need to have anybody else organise your games for you. Organise them yourself like you would any other thing in your life. You don't wait for your local meat shop to organise a barbecue so that you can have one? Or a local bike shop to organise a cycling competition so that you can have a bike trip?

Not being able to buy a certain game from a shelf in a b&m store in the age of the internet is an even weirder complaint.

I play LOTR SBG, OPR Grimdark Future and Kings of War.

I'm keen to get a game of Midgard in, and some games of Xenos Rampant and Lion Rampant. Also very interested in Mech Attack and Battletech Alpha Strike.

I do everything myself for my games, including painting both armies and making all the terrain. I just recruit friends who might be interested to play with me, so I favour simple games that are easy for non-wargamers to learn.

So a lot of times what I play is lower complexity than maybe my taste really is, but there are a lot of great accessible games available these days.

Since New Years I've played Epic Warpath, Necropolis, and OPR Age of Fantasy.

Gearing up for Quar (Clash of Rhyfles) right now, and hoping to get some Turnip28 and Horus Heresy action this year too.

Cyel wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

my store refuses to carry any non-gw wargame, except battletech, and refuses any events for them

Than play anywhere else with your friends. There's zero need to have anybody else organise your games for you. Organise them yourself like you would any other thing in your life. You don't wait for your local meat shop to organise a barbecue so that you can have one? Or a local bike shop to organise a cycling competition so that you can have a bike trip?

Not being able to buy a certain game from a shelf in a b&m store in the age of the internet is an even weirder complaint.

our other options are stores run by a literal crook and worst person alive i have met or drive 45 minute

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Cyel wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

my store refuses to carry any non-gw wargame, except battletech, and refuses any events for them

Than play anywhere else with your friends. There's zero need to have anybody else organise your games for you. Organise them yourself like you would any other thing in your life. You don't wait for your local meat shop to organise a barbecue so that you can have one? Or a local bike shop to organise a cycling competition so that you can have a bike trip?

Not being able to buy a certain game from a shelf in a b&m store in the age of the internet is an even weirder complaint.

our other options are stores run by a literal crook and worst person alive i have met or drive 45 minute

Why does it have to be stores, though? They are probably the worst place to play anyway. At homes, in gardens, in clubs, in gaming cafes, outdoors, libraries, local culture centres, schools or office spaces after hours. I've played in all of those places and every single one is better than a store.

I think a lot of it just depends on where you are at. My metro area is loaded with people playing a ton of different games at different stores. I was at one of the big LGS last weekend to play a game of Classic Battletech with some friends (something I pretty much never do), and there were a few games of 40k being played, probably half a dozen of Shatterpoint, another couple Battletech games and about 15(!) Warcry games, alongside a couple games of Trench Crusade and a few other things I didn't see.

I know in my gaming group we probably play Battletech Alpha Strike the most, but we have been playing BLKOUT, 1490 Doom, and have just started getting into Halo (I really don't care about the IP, but it's a really fun casual game). In addition I'm going to be playing a few games of Relicblade with a buddy here soon, and am making a Necropolis force to play with a different buddy.

In the hobby store I frequent, Battletech and Blood Bowl seem to be the most frequently played games. I'm sure they exist, but I really don't see stores where 40k is the most played game in my area.

For me the big hurdle is getting people to play mini-agnostic games. I have a bunch of painted minis (and ones that want paint) waiting for Space Weirdos or A Song of Blades and Heroes paint, but it's a tough ask around here for people to play a game without a dedicated range.

Cyel wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Cyel wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

my store refuses to carry any non-gw wargame, except battletech, and refuses any events for them

Than play anywhere else with your friends. There's zero need to have anybody else organise your games for you. Organise them yourself like you would any other thing in your life. You don't wait for your local meat shop to organise a barbecue so that you can have one? Or a local bike shop to organise a cycling competition so that you can have a bike trip?

Not being able to buy a certain game from a shelf in a b&m store in the age of the internet is an even weirder complaint.

our other options are stores run by a literal crook and worst person alive i have met or drive 45 minute

Why does it have to be stores, though? They are probably the worst place to play anyway. At homes, in gardens, in clubs, in gaming cafes, outdoors, libraries, local culture centres, schools or office spaces after hours. I've played in all of those places and every single one is better than a store.

Stores are where tournaments, leagues, events and game nights occur.