Any good ideas here?

I've been playing my thousand sons in a cityfight (now CoD) Vogen campaign.

So far I've just been using the models I have and been playing only 1000 point games.

So I generally have:

LT

sons with super pimp champ

9 flamers

defiler

pred (AC/HB)

I'm thinking, particularly because I have orks to fight, that I should try a couple of mutated dreads with the warp flame on them (anything they fight in hth takes a Sd6 AP4 hit before it swings).

Any other ideas?

Screamers might be good for some quick objective grabbing.

Sons in a Medicare building would be sick.

I have played Dreds. with CWF before, and it is the ultimate horde killer. The beutiful thing about it is that is effects every model. SO no matter how many Gaunts, Stealers, Orks, Aspects, you fight, you will clear out most of the unit before they even fight.

Which power are you giving the super pimp champ? I can actually see Wind of Chaos (the super template thing) being pretty darn effective in cityfight against orcs or power armor. Are you taking thralls for extra shots since you don't need to rush anywhere?

I think TS will do fairly well in the city fight areas since they aren't slowed down any more than normal.

They'd be nearly invincible with a medicae facility.....I guess this is the only case where a model with 2 wound has a lot going for it...HA! Capt K

I've been giving the LT and the Aspiring champ just gift, focus, and 4 thralls. It helps eliminate those fists/claws that hurt so much.

I've built a prince with stature and wings to use wind, but obviously he can't use thralls. He should be good for general purposes and isn't horribly expensive.

Hey Ed,

No Chosen of Ahriman? 

Vale,

JohnS

At some point I should run the math on how effective gift actually is. I normally treat it as a novelty power, but I'm suspecting it's quite a bit better than I've been giving it credit for.

P.S. - check the Viable Chaos Lords thread for lord configs, Tzeentch doesn't give any raw MEq-slaying abilities, so the unmarked lords will suffice

not when playing thousand sons he won't.

And the flamer template is awefully nice at killing Meqs

Every Chaos Player should say this to him/herself over and over agian.

Deamonic Speed is always better than Deamonic Flight.

When I played Thousand Sons, I used both and for your Statured Lord if you are not taking speed, you are asking to never make it into CC.

Wind of Chaos whould be takin almost all the time in TS squads. In my CoD experiance, flamer templates are quite nasty.

And how am I supposed to use the flamer template with daemonic speed again?

Easy Ed, you move into a position to assault. Then once that is done you are close enough to use it. Just because you have the power doesn't mean it has to be used every turn. Manuevering first to get an early assault will help set you up for later shots with it. Mahu is right, nothing beats daemonic speed...nothing. Capt K

Posted By mauleed on 07/02/2006 12:50 AM
And how am I supposed to use the flamer template with daemonic speed again?

The biggest down side to any Flamer Template armed Sorceror is that the best way to shoot them, is pull your casualties in a way to avoid the charge. With Speed, you are never out of charge range. Ask Captk, I took down a full unit of terminators with my Deamonic Speed Prince armed with WoC and a Dreadaxe, all in one turn.

You can never, ever, ever, beat Speed. Always take it versus Flight.

not when playing thousand sons he won't.

As in, his results will suffice with an added Mark of Tzeentch, as Tzeentch does not grant any abilities that increase raw MEq killing power, any entry on the list plus the Mark of Tzeentch is the optimal Tzeentch-marked lord of the appropriate point value.

Sorry, I'm unconvinced. I can't imagine how speed on a model with a flamer template makes sense. Perhaps you should explain it better.

Posted By mauleed on 07/06/2006 6:07 AM
Sorry, I'm unconvinced. I can't imagine how speed on a model with a flamer template makes sense. Perhaps you should explain it better.

Ok, say you get within charge range of a unit. Before you charge you fire your nice little Wind of Chaos Template. Now remember, Wind of Chaos is not a flamer, at least with a flamer you get your usual 3+ save, against WoC you don't, so the kill potential on Wind of Chaos is much higher on MEQ's. Say you cause 2 Casualties. Any good player will simply remove the 2 closest to your model, thus denying you the charge. Next turn, all those lovely heavy weapons are pounding your DP.

Now with Speed, your assault range is greater than that of your Flamer template. Therefore, there is no possible way for you to kill to many where you are denied the charge.

Besides, you do not have to use the Template every turn, with its short range you probably won't anyway. Just spend the first turn moving forward behind cover, then next turn charge, massacre into or WoC then charge the next unit rinse and repeat. In CoD, not many armies will be equiped to handle that.

I have played it both ways (Speed and Flight) and Speed will always, always, be better. Flight may have been better in 3rd Edition, but now there is no question.

What explanation do you need to be convinced Ed? I'm not really sure I follow. Okay, so your dude has speed and WoC. So correct me if I am wrong, but you are concerned that with speed and a shooting weapon, your Prince will only be able to use one or the other? I guess what we are trying to say is that it is okay, since the speed will allow you to manuever into a position to strike with it in later turns. Better because the rate of movement is faster than flight. Better because you can get a first turn assault. So again it's better than flight...even if you may not shoot WoC every turn. My suggestion is to play test both in CoD and see. Theoryhammer goes out the window in those games, trust me. I've played enough CoD games now to see that things you would think seem better actually aren't in most cases. In this case however, speed is king. Capt K

Sometimes I forget why I win so much. These threads remind me nicely of why.

Mahu, let's look at your example: I've got flight, yet somehow I moved so that I could only get (or kill) 2 models under the template. How many models do I get under the template without flight?

And you're assuming that I'll want to be in hth? Why would I want to charge an IC into hth with a squad with a powerfist? (unless I've just killed half the models in it with a flamer template?) Sure, there will be some units unable to deal with the prince in hth, but not many in a well composed marine CoD army.

No, I want to fly around, flame what I can and only pounce on very weakened squads that I can kill in one or two rounds of hth, before the powerfist removes me from the board.

Winds of chaos is one of the best possible anti-marine guns in the game in CoD, but you guys are arguing that I should ignore it and jump into hth. Makes no sense to me.

I'm just not convinced speed is terribly worthwhile compared to flight in CoD.

I'm with mauleed on this one, why jump where you will get shot? If he didn't want to be stuck in the open and there is no powerfist for some reason why wouldn't he just not fire the template if he is worried and charge instead? The maveuverability of flight allows you to get within a few inches a lot easier than speed in the case of lots o' terrain anyway so the charge range shouldn't be as far.

IC with flight rerolls dangerous terrain tests if he does take them, can jump out of terrain 12" instead of rolling to get out, and can probably get close enough to charge an inch or two at most so that he can't fail a charge unless he kills everything in the squad. Flight is meta-game better for CoD in my opinion also.

This comment has sort of gotten my goat:

Theoryhammer goes out the window in those games, trust me

In response, I say if you have practical experience that you think refutes the theoryhammer, but can't put it into words that actually refutes it, then likely your practical experience is not representative of what's actually likely (or you're just really bad at communicating, in which case why discuss further anyway?)

Theoryhammer is what this board is all about, and it's why some people always do better than others: they have a better understanding of how theoryhammer needs to be applied to realhammer.

Sometimes I forget why I win so much. These threads remind me nicely of why.

Don't you think that was unneccessary?

Mahu, let's look at your example: I've got flight, yet somehow I moved so that I could only get (or kill) 2 models under the template. How many models do I get under the template without flight?

I was working on the assumtion that you cover 4 under the template with a 50% chance of causing casualties. If you are trying to take a building, this is probably what you would get (most players split a unit between levels to limit the effectiveness of template weapons). Besides the more models you cover the more casualties you cause, meaning the more opportunity you give to your opponent to deny you the charge.

And you're assuming that I'll want to be in hth? Why would I want to charge an IC into hth with a squad with a powerfist? (unless I've just killed half the models in it with a flamer template?) Sure, there will be some units unable to deal with the prince in hth, but not many in a well composed marine CoD army.

Well, you have two options, either stay out in the open to be shot to death or take the slight possibility that a powerfist will kill you. Considering the Powerfist needs 5's to hit you (with Stature) , I would take my chances in assault.

No, I want to fly around, flame what I can and only pounce on very weakened squads that I can kill in one or two rounds of hth, before the powerfist removes me from the board.

The problem with the flight/WoC combination is that you are either landing in the open or taking a Dangerous Terrain test landing in the Ruins. In order to use your WoC template, the only time you get any coverage is to land outside a building. Just asking for shooty death. With speed you are entering with free Move through Cover, you could even move from one ruin to the next in a single assault move.

Winds of chaos is one of the best possible anti-marine guns in the game in CoD, but you guys are arguing that I should ignore it and jump into hth. Makes no sense to me.

Nobody said to ignor it. We are just showing you that there are better ways to use it.

In the end, your Prince is not Scoring anyway. His best use is to chew through and clear out buildings that your actual scoring units can take. Victory points only matter in one mission in CoD, so mobility is key on capturing buildings. Deamon Princes are best to stop advances or at least hold the advance off for long enough to take them with the rest of your army.

Note to self: don't waste time replying to Mahu's posts in the tactics forums.

You know when you are making a point that Mauleed can't refute when he denies your existance.

I have said my piece about it, if you are so stubborn to not even try it in a friendly game, than that is your loss. Me, I will be happy with my victories.

Now wasn't this thread about Thousand Sons in general, not the stupid arguement it has become?

Flight vs speed matters for TS since the disc of Tzeentch give you demonic flight

Mahu, did you note that the IC's get to reroll their dangerous terrain test making flight a lot less lethal for them to use? They also get move through cover for free as you noted, but jump packs don't have to make those tests to begin with unless they are charging. The only negative you are focusing on is problems charging after using the WoC which as we have pointed out isn't going to be a problem if you don't want it to be since you don't have to charge and you don't have to use the power.

Mahu, I see your point, I just think it's stupid. I'm not inclined to try things that are stupid on their face in actual games.

Well golly gosh, I got your goat. Huh. Yeah this may be a forum for theoryhammer, but there is no substitute for actual game play...i.e applying said tactics in the game. If you think that I can't communicate it well enough that's fine, maybe I can't, but I can tell you straight up that speed is better in CoD, because I've used it and it works extremely well (playtesting shows it). Furthermore why the hell are you even afraid of PF in the first place? 99% of the time you will clear your kill zone (assuming you use speed to manuever into a postion to hang the powerfists). Secondly, you are immune to instakills from them. Thirdly, your lord in CoD is essentially a throw away unit anyways since CoD is a game of attrition. Send him to do as much damage as possible, while preserving your scoring units. If you claim to have found the "ultimo TS combo", then why even bother asking for other people's opinions? My next question is this: Have you even tried using this combo in games? Either one? Speed or Flight? Which was better? So before you berate the other posters (including me), why not try it out in a CoD game? Then come back here with your findings. Additionally, I believe Speed is cheaper points-wise anyways so that is a bonus. Capt K PS: What "gets my goat" is your comment about forgeting why you win so many games (insert inflated ego here)...really ...Well did you think that maybe that it's probably because you face the same people mostly? Or maybe because you haven't really traveled that far out of your comfort zone in the East? We're already planning for Adepticon 2007 Ed...any chance that you will heed the call in the Gladiator? Maybe a little bit more humbleness and a little less "My opinion matters more because I seldom lose...." would go a long way. I seldom lose games myself, but I don't use that to legitmize my point of view as some form of lame "street cred".

Posted By mauleed on 07/06/2006 11:54 AM
Mahu, I see your point, I just think it's stupid. I'm not inclined to try things that are stupid on their face in actual games.

That has all the intellect of a school yard bully telling a kid that "he's stupid" because you couldn't argue with him.

Please grow up.

Note to Snoogums. I am aware of that statured models don't take dangerous terrain tests. But daemonic speed still is king. Capt K

CaptK, just so we're clear, your points are:

a. Speed is better because you've used it and we should trust you

b. I shouldn't point out how stupid that is until I fly to Chicago and beat you there?

Just want to make sure I'm on the same page.

Well, you have two options, either stay out in the open to be shot to death or take the slight possibility that a powerfist will kill you. Considering the Powerfist needs 5's to hit you (with Stature) , I would take my chances in assault.

First, a MEq fist needs 4's to hit a DP. So any squad with a fist will need to be thined out before you even think of assaulting, as three rounds of fist attacks will likely do him in (and one round there's 5/6 chance of giving up half VPs). Hence the use of WoC pre charge.

Secondly, were talking about CoD, correct? I doubt mauleed has to worry about his prince getting shot to death very often, unless he's been severely outplayed.

Posted By mauleed on 07/06/2006 12:34 PM

CaptK, just so we're clear, your points are:

a. Speed is better because you've used it and we should trust you

b. I shouldn't point out how stupid that is until I fly to Chicago and beat you there?

Just want to make sure I'm on the same page.

You forgot:

c: Rolling rough terrain every time you move and charge in a straight line is better than flying to avoid it all except for a short charge.

Ah no Ed....again you missed the point. Point 1: Using your win record to legitimize your point of view is lame Point 2: Speed is better, since the people you are berating have *actually* applied/ tested it to a game vs flight....you have not. Yours is an assumption (a well thought out one, but an assumption none-the-less.) Point 3: Because of said win record, you feel that you have a better grasp of the game than other people. There are many others that can boast just as a high win record such as yourself, but you seem to always manage to mention it when the others do not. It's funny that these people play in more tourneys and events nationally than you...something to think about. Just to clear things up. As an aside. I got nothing against you personally Ed (most of your posts are very informative), but some of your last statements make you sound like a total jag. Capt K

mauleed, just so we're clear, your points are:

a. Flight is better because you've used it and we should trust you because you are the greatest player EVAR.

b. Your form of debate revolves around beating a person to death with words rather than admit the smallest possibility that you are wrong.

c. You are such a great gamer that you need not head outside of your area to prove it even though the meta game just might be higher in other places.

Just want to make sure I'm on the same page.

@ Snoogums: (sarcasm) yeah rolling 3 dice and doubling the highest is really going to stop you from making a charge. What's the average dice roll on 3 dice again?(sarcasm off) Capt K

Posted By CaptKaruthors on 07/06/2006 12:52 PM
@ Snoogums: (sarcasm) yeah rolling 3 dice and doubling the highest is really going to stop you from making a charge. What's the average dice roll on 3 dice again?(sarcasm off) Capt K

Why are you charging through cover instead of just jumping over the cover? Oh because you took speed.

It depends on how you are attacking, and as you guys are still firm believers in always charging we cannot convince you that sometimes it is better to jump somewhere out of open shooting to use a deadly ranged attack up close. If they charge your prince then he goes at the same time or first, still killing their powerfist first. If they don't charge he can just hop around and harass them. If you have the D speed you have to run over terrain to charge in most cases and will not get any great benefit out of it if you are charging into cover all the time. Now if your opponent sits between buildings in the open all of the time sure the speed could be better if you don't use WoC, otherwise you will just be wasting your 12" charge anyway if you are that close.

Obviously this only becomes apparent when you play it, have you played flight as much as speed or are you just going off your happiness you get from speed already?

@Mahu:

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mauleed, just so we're clear, your points are:

a. Flight is better because you've used it and we should trust you because you are the greatest player EVAR.

Actually, I never made a point. I just assumed we all knew that a model who moves 12" and has a flamer template kills alot more models with that template than a model who moves 6".

b. Your form of debate revolves around beating a person to death with words rather than admit the smallest possibility that you are wrong.

No, by the time I beat you up with words I've stopped debating, and merely killing time by pointing out your folly.

c. You are such a great gamer that you need not head outside of your area to prove it even though the meta game just might be higher in other places.

Correct.

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@Snoogums: Firstly, who said anything about charging through cover? That was brought up by someone else.The original discussion was about using WoC by positioning and the mobility required to do so. Speed does it better and safer for the Prince. The whole charging issue arose from what to do if you don't want to/ can't use the template weapon or if you want the fleet move (which ignores terrain). The other factors are that models holed up in a building provide more resistance to WoC than you think. Mahu illustrated that perfectly, yet everyone missed it. You can only target the level you are on, or one level above/ below you. So by spreading your units between floors reduces the WoC effectiveness since it won't catch as many models. In that situation, having the Prince charging is preferable. Do you follow the line of thinking now? If you feel that staying in the open "harassing" units with a template weapon over and over again is better be my guest. The prince will die faster to shooting then. Capt K

Winterman Wrote:First, a MEq fist needs 4's to hit a DP. So any squad with a fist will need to be thined out before you even think of assaulting, as three rounds of fist attacks will likely do him in (and one round there's 5/6 chance of giving up half VPs). Hence the use of WoC pre charge. Mahu was incorrect in that instance, yes you need 4's to hit a prince. However, most likely the prince is killing enough models in the assault for it to seldom be a problem. I find it unlikely that any squad with a fist will be in combat for 3 rounds against a Statured Prince. Again, regarding the WoC shot before the charge is risky for several reasons. First the opponent can space the targeted unit over several levels to stop the effectiveness of WoC. Secondly it could potentially eliminate the chances of getting and assault if the player removes the models in a way which makes the DT roll risky (may not reach). Speed doesn't have to worry as much. If you can position yourself in the early parts of the game to later take shots before you charge, most likely a close combat will happen. If the model with speed is close enough to shoot, he is easily within charge distance. Once more we've been establishing that all CoD games save for one, do not use VP's so having the Prince get wounded or even die is irrelevent. He is there to win the battle of attrition.

c. You are such a great gamer that you need not head outside of your area to prove it even though the meta game just might be higher in other places. Correct. Again...It's comments like this that make me laugh. Get over yourself Ed. Capt K

I find it unlikely that any squad with a fist will be in combat for 3 rounds against a Statured Prince.

Without thinning them prior? A basic MoT prince will kill about 3 MEqs on the charge and a bit less in subsequent rounds. That means an 8 man squad ties up the prince for three rounds and the fist gets two rounds of action. If he's a loyalist sgt that's 1.66 wounds. Plus you've got around 6-12 basic attacks for those two rounds that comes close to covering the remaining .33 wound. Also note he's winning combat in his own turn, which isn't ideal.

Now hit them with WoC prior to charging.  Kill atleast 2 guys and on average you'd eliminate the fist before he strikes in the second round, save yourself a wound and end the assault in your opponets turn.

The key is patience. Flight gives you more average movement prior to the charge and more verstaility in how you move (immpassible terrain, models, etc). Why rush out for a charge with speed when you can wait an extra turn to set up the shoot and charge and still have wounds left to be a serious threat to other units.

Once more we've been establishing that all CoD games save for one, do not use VP's so having the Prince get wounded or even die is irrelevent. He is there to win the battle of attrition.

True on the Vps thing but it was a minor point. However, I think my point above illustrates why WoC (and indirecty d. flight) is a great way for a MoT prince to win the battle of attrition.

Posted By CaptKaruthors on 07/06/2006 2:07 PM
c. You are such a great gamer that you need not head outside of your area to prove it even though the meta game just might be higher in other places. Correct. Again...It's comments like this that make me laugh. Get over yourself Ed. Capt K

Or, conversely, you could come to my area and show me how great you are.

But if the Metagame in your area is such that giving flamer templates to guys moving 6" a turn is a good move, it's probably not worth the effort for either of us.

I think this is at least partially a philosophical debate over the use of ICs in CoD. Do you simply have them wade in or do you preserve them for the endgame? Moreover, what style works better within the context of Ed's 1KSons army?

Personally, I'd rather have that resource available in the late turns if I can help it. That's when city games (and indeed most objective games) are won and lost, in my experience.

However, context is important. If you're talking about my Tyranid army, my Hive Tyrant can be an effective guided missile since I can probably support his charge with Gaunts or other units, which can extend its lifespan. In a 1KSons army, I just envision the Prince charging in unassisted and getting beaten down by PFs. Sure, you could hold the Prince back until you really need it. But then isn't that what Ed is doing in the first place?

Frankly, I dunno if I'd even bother with WoC if the unit was going to be designated for guided missile duty.

I'm trying to figure out how Speed helps the mobility of a flamer/shooting attack at all?

I mean, you move 6" with speed. Then you charge 12". But that charge is after the shooting phase.

So why is it better than flight? The best argument I can see is that you get up there with speed on the second or third turn, and can then move around, but I can't see how that is better than being able to move 12" all the time.

You spend your first turns fleeting, which means you are moving 7" to 12" a turn not just 6". Then on that one magic turn, you move up to the building, flame the hell out of it and charge.

Of course nobody has addressed the idea of a squad entirely on the third level. Oops, to bad flamer man.

The demonic flight guy could just fly up there.

@winterman: you are assuming that the unit isn't going to break. A Monsterous creature counts as 10 models, plus visage = squad breaking unless they have some mysterious way of staying in combat. Furthermore, why is this rushing off to fight in close combat bit constantly keep popping up? I thought the idea was to manuever to WoC units and charging was a healthy plan B? If you are convinced that flight is better try it out and see if it works against a variety of opponents in a variety of scenarios. I still maintain that speed is superior overall. Capt K

Posted By snooggums on 07/06/2006 3:53 PM
The demonic flight guy could just fly up there.

How? If the third level is covered by a unit, you couldn't get to the third nor the second level, unless your DP was less that 2" tall. You still can't come within 1" of a unit you are not charging, even in the city. At least speed give you a good chance of charging the third level.

Mauleed Wrote: "Or, conversely, you could come to my area and show me how great you are." But if the Metagame in your area is such that giving flamer templates to guys moving 6" a turn is a good move, it's probably not worth the effort for either of us." If there was a big enough event beyond a standard RTT and doesn't conflict with other events I attend, sure, why not? Unlike you, I don't toot my horn about how great I am nor do I use it as a way to legitmize a point of view. However, I have been to enough events and played against enough top tier players to know that the Almighty Ed Maule, for all his victories, when placed in an event with the lot of these guys is just another great player. Nothing more, nothing less. Is there any event in the upper East Coast that brings that much national attention? We have the Necronomicon down here in Orlando in a few weeks a 40k indy GT will be running then. Other than the now defunct Baltimore GT, is there anything large in your neck of the woods? Actually the Metagame in my area is as such that the thought of taking a TS army at all is funny as hell. Most people here play Slaneesh (me included) or some form of Uber Undivided. Capt K

@winterman: you are assuming that the unit isn't going to break. A Monsterous creature counts as 10 models, plus visage = squad breaking unless they have some mysterious way of staying in combat.

I did think about breaking but thought I'd keep the discussion brief. That just complicates the issue, because then you're looking at all the various moral rules involved (fearlessness, ATSKNF, Rite of Battle, etc.) and the implications of when they actually break. All in all its about an equal chance regardless of which movement you use so its kinda moot.

Now, there is something I missed that can be considered. What if the squad breaks before you charge from 25% casualties from WoC. That has some good and bad implications, both of which simply require some forthought when setting up your movement (ie if they do break he's not in LOS of every gun in the opponets army).

Hey, d. speed is great, especially on a beatstick prince. The problem is Tzeentch princes can't be uber tooled for assault like other princes. Infact, you are paying for the ability to use psychic powers so it makes sense to tool him up in a way that makes full use of that ability. D. flight is superior to d speed in this regard.

"I'm trying to figure out how Speed helps the mobility of a flamer/shooting attack at all? I mean, you move 6" with speed. Then you charge 12". But that charge is after the shooting phase. So why is it better than flight? The best argument I can see is that you get up there with speed on the second or third turn, and can then move around, but I can't see how that is better than being able to move 12" all the time." You are on the right track Snoogums. What makes the speed better is that you are not in the open while moving nor will you end up on the short end of the stick on assaults. And you have the option to move faster in the open...if you want to Capt K

I have found that speed is better in open games IF it is melee. Its not hard to grasp that a 12 inch charge is WASTED if you dont have to charge that far.

Flight gives mobility where Speed gives charging distance and fleet if you need it. Sure speed will give over all better distance closing to HTH but flight would do better with the use of a flamer. The flamer template is slightly more than 6 inches. So you fly in, toast em and fly away. No waddle and then shoot. It seems more flexibility in CoD to me.

Speed wins in open combat but CoD is not the same animal as 40k cleanse missions.

How? If the third level is covered by a unit, you couldn't get to the third nor the second level, unless your DP was less that 2" tall. You still can't come within 1" of a unit you are not charging, even in the city. At least speed give you a good chance of charging the third level.

I know that coherency is measured from the top of a model to the base in CoD but is that also the case for the no enemy in 1" rule?

We have the Necronomicon down here in Orlando in a few weeks a 40k indy GT

Actually, it's next week.

CaptK, learn the use of the carriage return. Learn it and love it. I showed it to my kids last week and it makes their posts much more readable.

I wouldn't exactly call the Necro a big 40k event. It's a big fantasy event with a ~30 person RTT next to it. Amd I still bet you don't go undefeated at it. (make sure to report back) So pardon me if I'm not jumping on a plane to go down there and smack you around. And if I did, I'd play fantasy anyway.

But if I did show up at any big 40k event, and you were expecting me to show up with sons, you'd be very disappointed. As I said, this is for a friendly vogen campaign league.

Regardless, you're still claiming that speed on a guy with a flamer template makes sense, and I'm just not seeing it. Perhaps it does on your slaaneshi prince, who is designed for hth. But this thread did have "Thousand sons" prominently in the title, so I assumed we were all aware I wasn't taking the mark of Slaanesh on anything.

The only difference between a Mark of Slaneesh DP with Speed and WoC and a Thousand Son DP with Speed and WoC is that a Thousand Son DP passes the PT automatically.

The only difference between a Mark of Slaneesh DP with Speed and WoC and a Thousand Son DP with Speed and WoC is that a Thousand Son DP passes the PT automatically.

No differences? So combat drugs, warp scream, free sorcery for MoT and siren aren't differences? Those are all considerations when setting up a prince.

The point is with MoS you can make a really cheap mofo of a close combat prince. That is where speed makes sense, CoD or not. For Tzeench, your mark is giving you the ability to take psychic powers and doesn't offer anything special in the beatstick department. So play to your strength and make full use of those powers.

Well, if I knew this thread would be getting this much fun I would have spoken up earlier. Also, if you have to take Thousand Sons to the Adepticon to be taken seriously, look at my sig (And the only reason why I did so poorly is because most of the missions had things like objectives, and with only 5 scoring units, that was a problem even though I beat the crap out of them in victory points).

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And I am going to say flight is better than speed. It is late, and I don?t want to explain why, but I will say a little bit about it.

 

With Flight you are always moving 12?. Not only that, but unlike Speed, you can move 12? and shoot compared to the 6? with Speed. With the longer move, it lets you move into the best firing position to maximize casualties from WoC. When you are only moving 6? it is almost impossible to get WoC off. If you are that close, you are either getting charged, or something is shooting a butt load of plasma at you, or something else unpleasant has happened. If not, the closest models will be running for their lives.

 

Here is one thing that speed has over flight. If you don?t know what you are doing, you can cast WoC and kill enough models so that you kill everything within 6? leaving you out of charge range and leaving yourself up to getting shot. The way I counter it is to move so that I am within 6? of the powerfist (That is right, you heard me!). So when you do all that damage to a squad they will remove casualties, but they will never remove the powerfist, guaranteeing you are in assault range. I know that they can remove the powerfist to keep me out of assault, but I have never met a player with the balls to do it. And no, that powerfist is never a problem. How big do you see squads these days? 8 marines seem to be the largest I ever encounter. After putting the hurt on them with the WoC I charge in and I will either clear my assault zone (I run a 202 point tooled up Statured DP) or he has taken so many casualties that to preserve their precious fist I can take all the models out of b-t-b. Then I hope he stays in combat so I can kill the remainder in the next assault phase, then I fly off to do it all over again.

And Capt. K:

If you are going to copy and paste your posts from word, you need to go and do the full reply. If you paste your post into the small quick reply box it will smash all of your text up.

(And to the post above, I had 6 scoring units at Adepticon with my Thousand Sons)

 

Nice one Ed. So since you are on your high horse, you now also feel it necessary to criticize the format of my post. Wow. I don?t know whether or not to laugh, or make a joke about compensation for a lack of something. Realize that when I make these posts, it?s at work and usually typed quickly since my work deserves a little more attention than the posts here, plus the fact I am using a Mac at work may have something to do with it. In the reply area, it doesn't display all the editing options that I have on my PC at home. Ah, not a big event eh? I guess the organizers would disagree with you on that. And by the way, the 40k tournament is slotted for 40 players not 30 and is in GT format. Even though that may not seem large, recognize that it is the first year they are offering it, and by my estimation it will surpass the fantasy tournament numbers in the future. Additionally what ?big events? do you have in your region? There is none that I am aware of. As far as going undefeated?who cares? Again I am not the one that is boasting about their win record?you are. Besides, how long are you going to cling onto that achievement Ed? It?s been what, 2 years now? Really. Nobody cares any more. How about you win an Overall? Better yet, win multiple Overalls for both fantasy and 40k. Again, you boast a great win record, but at the end of the day you are in the same league with many other great players on this forum and elsewhere. As for using TS in a Friendly Campaign, I understand that. I realize full well that there is no way in hell you?d bring TS to a big 40k event. Why you think that I would expect that is strange. Yes that is my opinion and you disagree. Great. We agree to disagree. My opinion is based on actual play and experience and not assumptions. You feel that flight is better. Great. Take flight. Obviously you feel you are right. If you feel so strongly about it, then why make a post asking for people?s opinions about it if you feel you know that you have the Ultimo Combo?? As for the subject heading, yeah I realize that it was for TS Princes?but speed is great for any Prince with a mark. The only Prince that doesn?t need it is Glaive Prince. Capt K

@Blackmoor: I don't use the quick reply, nor do I type my responses in Word, then paste. I use the standard reply. I think the formating of my posts may have more to do with my computer than anything else. When I post at home I have no problems. When I post at work it bunches it together...all of these posts were done from work. Anyhoo, back to designing graphics for NASCAR... Capt K

So the enter key doesn't work on a Mac?

CaptK, while I find your attempts to undercut my unparallelled GT record mildly amusing, you're strayed off point. Please get back to explaining how speed makes sense for a guy with a flamer template, or how Emperor's children tactics integrate with Thousand sons.

Are you even listening to what he is posting?

You aren't even argueing the point anymore.

Ohhh, I see there is a BIG difference between a Slaneesh DP with the Sorceror Upgrade, WoC, and speed and a Tzeentch DP with WoC, and speed. Sure there are some extra gubin's each can take, but they are essentially Close Combat monsters with a flamer template.

Ask me this Ed, why don't you just take two Lieutenants with Flight and WoC if you are so determined not to get into Close Combat. I think this is where the whole arguement started, why take a Statured Lord (or any lord that qualifies as a DP for that matther) and not want to get into close combat.

And I hardly call your record "unparallelled", if I remember correctly, you have never won an overall. Sure you won all your games, but other people win all their games all the time, and you don't see them bragging about it. CaptK for instance, took his Ultramarines to Adepticon and over 7 games (4 Gladiator and 3 RTT, if I have my numbers right) and he only lost once. And before you are critical of that, please note that since you have never been there you cannot comment on the quality of competition. Yet, he nevers mentions any of his win records because he isn't trying to use it as some lame "street cred" that you seem to do.

Yeah Ed, my enter key does work. However, when I type my posts in paragraphs and submit them, the posted message gets squished together. As for undercutting your record, there is no undercutting. Great. You went undefeated. Again, like I said back when you did that, congratulations...genuinely, congratulations. However, that was a long time ago. While it was a great achievement it's old news. It also doesn't make you the end all be all authority of everything either. But you are right we are getting off the topic and you and I dancing around in a fruitless discussion probably bores both you and I...so with that back on topic.
I really can't convince you that speed is better. I guess this falls into the realm of personal preference. So when you play in your battle with the Prince with flight, let me know how it goes. I am genuinely curious how it will work for you. I have found speed to be superior to flight in every CoD game I've played thus far. As for mixing strategies between Slaneesh and TS, there is none. There is no disadvantage between taking speed on any Prince with those Marks. Both are close combat monsters due to their daemonic abilities. The interesting part is that Mahu plays TS; has a statured Prince with speed and WoC said that it is quite good, yet you dismissed his posts. The biggest downfall I see to Flight Vs. Speed in CoD is that it is quite easy to defend against WoC. Speed helps to counter that. My other observations are: what would you do against an opponent that has a Fortified Medicae building? I see that as a potential stumbling block for your Prince...and god forbid the building has terminators in it. Capt K

Well if I (the completely unknown one) could jump in here for a quick sec and get this a little off topic

Are Thousand Sons decent enough to win in COD? I've always been kinda tempted to build them, but the only builds that
I've seen work are with Defiler/Preds and I'd rather avoid those.

Not asking for a tactics thrad (though if you feel like it...) but is thre a decent 1500-1750 build that doesn't rely on the aforementioned Defilers/Preds?
(a simple yes/no would be cool, I can always try and puzzle it out )

Posted By Mahu on 07/07/2006 1:24 PM
Are you even listening to what he is posting?

Ask me this Ed, why don't you just take two Lieutenants with Flight and WoC if you are so determined not to get into Close Combat. I think this is where the whole arguement started, why take a Statured Lord (or any lord that qualifies as a DP for that matter) and not want to get into close combat.

Because he wants a cheap monstrous creature that can fly around and kill MEQ's in cover easily while being cheap on points? He said he liked it for multi purpose: Stature gives it tank killing ability, higher toughness and the flight gets him where he wants to go for not many points all together. mauleed never evn posted his upgrades other than stature flight and WoC because that is what he wants, the rest is just details. You are still arguing about charging when he stated at the beginning that he wasn't planning on charging it in most cases.
You would make a great target for this DP. You will worry about being charged instead of eating an armor ignoring flamer template.

@Hexx: It depends if your friends or tournament organizers allow the Key to be used. If they let yyou use the Key, I believe that you can make a pretty decent list. Blackmoor would be able to shed more light since he did rather well with his TS army at Adepticon.
Capt K

And I hardly call your record "unparallelled", if I remember correctly, you have never won an overall. Sure you won all your games, but other people win all their games all the time, and you don't see them bragging about it.

Can you name another person that's 16-0 in GTs (and I'm only calling events with 75+ people a GT).

And I didn't bring up my obviously superior record. CaptK did, and continues to, as if because I'm such a proven winner, and I am so dismissive of his obviously ridiculous position, somehow that adds up to me being not only wrong, but evil.

I find it doubly amusing that his record is almost as good, yet, when really examined, infinitely worse.

Anyway, yes, two LTs would probably be better, but I want to paint the model. But I'll keep that in mind if I really need to tune up.

What could be really nasty is that the campaign allows me to take Ahriman's Chosen, which could give me 4 flying flamer templates!

 

Sometimes I forget why I win so much. These threads remind me nicely of why.

And I didn't bring up my obviously superior record. CaptK did, and continues to, as if because I'm such a proven winner, and I am so dismissive of his obviously ridiculous position, somehow that adds up to me being not only wrong, but evil.

Are we resorting to lieing now?

@ Snoogums. I'll take that bet...hehe. A guy that's flying around hoping to vap units is asking to get shot pretty quick. The thing people are thinking is that Mahu and I are thinking close combat, when we aren't. We were coming from the angle of manueverability coupled with a definite back up plan in case the flame template is less desirable to use for that turn. Speed helps since you can make a faster move overall. Heck if he wanted a cheap stature Prince, Speed is 5pts cheaper and can move just as fast, if not faster.
Capt K

Hang on Ed. I brought up your record? Um, I think you did....oh good. I don't have to repost it...Mahu did.
As far as going undefeated in GT's...good for you. Sure I can't name another person to do that. Big deal. Besides, GT's are essentially dead and the only other real big events that draws exceptional players is the UK GT and Adepticon...neither of which you attend. As far as my record is concerned...I don't talk about my record because I don't really care what it is, nor do I deem it important to a tactics discussion. You on the other hand, seem to. Tell me this Ed, can you name a person that's won multiple Overalls? I can. And while he is a successful player, he sure as hell doesn't use his record as some form of credibilty to back up a point of view...nor does he constantly remind people that he is a multi-time Overall winner.
But I digress. Let's move past this since it grows old and move on in the TS discussion. My next question is: are they allowing you to use the Key, Ed? If so, a realm of cool possibilities opens up then.
Capt K

Posted By CaptKaruthors on 07/07/2006 3:20 PM
@ Snoogums. I'll take that bet...hehe. A guy that's flying around hoping to vap units is asking to get shot pretty quick. The thing people are thinking is that Mahu and I are thinking close combat, when we aren't. We were coming from the angle of manueverability coupled with a definite back up plan in case the flame template is less desirable to use for that turn. Speed helps since you can make a faster move overall. Heck if he wanted a cheap stature Prince, Speed is 5pts cheaper and can move just as fast, if not faster.
Capt K

So you actually think that fleeting when not shooting is better than moving 12" and shooting? You can't move as fast as the maximum allowed on a 1/6 chance roll when not shooting as you can simply moving 12" and shooting. You are only faster overall on one turn and that is the turn that you charge without shooting which is the opposite of the intended goal. With flight you move your max distance every round and still get to move a total of 12 inches on the charge including better shooting. Your logic is just lacking logic.

You are only faster overall on one turn and that is the turn that you charge without shooting which is the opposite of the intended goal.

Quoted for truth.

Plus on average you won't really be much faster. For a turn two charge, speed will average an extra inch on flight (30" vs 31").

Yes, speed is cheaper but then you are less likely to use your psychic power. So you've got a bunch of points tied into MoT and WoC that you'll rarely get to use. All for an extra inch of overall movement and a 5 point savings.

We were coming from the angle of manueverability coupled with a definite back up plan in case the flame template is less desirable to use for that turn.

I guess we are arguing that one should plan their moves better to make full use of WoC and MoT.

@snoogums: Explain to me how you get 12" of assault movement with flight. In your last post you claimed that. Overall, the fastest the model with flight can go is 18" (assuming you assault to gain more inches). The fastest on average a model can go with speed is 21" (assuming you assault to gain more inches) However, moving that fast is only required for a turn or so at which you are set up to flame better and also have a better chance at choosing your angle of attack if you decide that assault is preferable. With speed you have the ability to reach higher levels to attack. With flight that is more difficult, since the opponent can defend better against it. Remember assaulting into cover with flight only gets you 3d6" take the highest....speed gets you 3d6" and double the highest when you assault. Plus, by placing models in such a way on the higher levels can actually stop a flight Prince from shooting or even a potential assault (remember that each level is 3" so a statured prince can only be on the lower level if everyone is on the 3rd. because of his size.) My biggest question is why would you pay the points for stature and waste such a good close combat statline for the chance to potentially hurt units in cover with a template weapon when you can make a model that is cheaper to do the same? We've already addressed the how easy it is to defend against flame templates. It may work it may not, but if I am paying for stature, I definitely want the versatility inherent in daemonic speed rather than flight. What about a chosen squad with flight and WoC? More expensive overall, but having more WoC on the table is going to do more damage than just one. So in closing on this topic, I think Winterman makes a great point. I think the real debate is how you chose to manuever your Prince in CoD to maximize WoC. I feel that, based on my experience in CoD games, that speed is the winner due to its versatility and utility over multiple mission objectives/challenges. If people disagree they are free to do so. My only response to them is to try it out both ways in all the missions and see what works best for you. For me, speed all the way baby. Capt K

Posted By CaptKaruthors on 07/09/2006 11:42 PM
@snoogums: Explain to me how you get 12" of assault movement with flight. In your last post you claimed that.

I said you got 12" of movement when you charged, I meant the movement phase. Of course you are still being dense so:

12" movement + WoC +6 inch charge = 18 total inches of movement.

With Demonic Speed:

6" movement WoC +12 inch charge = 8 total inches of movement.

Speed is only better if you aren't using WoC. We want to use WoC. It can't be any clearer.

@snoogums: Well DUH! What do you think we have been discussing? I know that you want to use WoC. However, my point is that there will be times where the faster movement and a possible assault will be more favorable, instead of using WoC. Nobody so far, has still not answered my question of why would you waste the great statline that stature gives (in assaults) and waste it on trying to use WoC when you can get that ability elsewhere...and probably cheaper? Reread my posts because you seem to be missing the part where I explain how the one template can be less desirable and easy to defend against. Conversely, a chosen unit each with flight and WoC has multiple templates. Having multiple templates will help vs. a unit (or units) that are spread out on multiple levels. Capt K

Posted By CaptKaruthors on 07/10/2006 8:42 AM
@snoogums: Well DUH! What do you think we have been discussing? I know that you want to use WoC. However, my point is that there will be times where the faster movement and a possible assault will be more favorable, instead of using WoC. Nobody so far, has still not answered my question of why would you waste the great statline that stature gives (in assaults) and waste it on trying to use WoC when you can get that ability elsewhere...and probably cheaper? Reread my posts because you seem to be missing the part where I explain how the one template can be less desirable and easy to defend against. Conversely, a chosen unit each with flight and WoC has multiple templates. Having multiple templates will help vs. a unit (or units) that are spread out on multiple levels. Capt K

It's obvious that you don't get the point of the thread. He painted up a model and wants to use it, doesn't care about the other options and wants to use WoC, not charge. You are arguing exactly the opposite in every single post and aren't contributing because you keep suggesting something other than what is wanting to be done and instead trying your hardest to get him to use something other than the one model he made the thread about. You could have made one post that you think other things are better and stopped but you keep trying which is counterproductive.

If he was so dead set to use any one particular model, than why ask advice about it?

Furthermore the thread was about Thousand Sons in CoD, not about whether speed is better than flight, it just denegrated to that point. Myself and CaptK are just trying to argue the best options you can get, but because Mauleed is being an ass, and temperatures are raised it bacame an arguement in which Mauleed continues being an *donkey*and we are calling him on it. I give Winterman points because at least he is addressing the issue, not throwing around back handed insults to try and prove his beterment as a gamer.

The model and options Mauleed uses is his choice, it's his arrogance at not even considering a possible better option that has fueled this thread.

mauleed:  I think your a victim of your own success. 

I think that most people have come to expect a (kill kill kill) mentality your armies. 
You have baffled almost everyone by having a DP that is designed to be a Swiss army knife instead of a hammer.

There is a saying: when the only tool you have is a hammer  all your problems start looking like nails.

I totally agree with your DP (and have played the COD/city fight games to back it up).  I think that in any COD
game you play with this lord, the army will do well.

Yes Dspeed is great if you want to use your DP as a cruise missile of death (that will get killed), but
in the COD games I have played versatility is needed more than just straight out killing power.

The winged DP can fly around at a reasonably fast speed using WOC to thin out units, and charge the weaker units.
Also the Winged DP will probably be around till the end of the game to help out with those last ditch efforts to take/keep an objective!

mauleed: why a pred (AC/HB)?

I always seem to have problems with them in COD. With the fire lanes blocked by so many buildings I always found it hard to make pred's dangerous. How has the tank worked out for you?

"Kreenshaw wrote: I totally agree with your DP (and have played the COD/city fight games to back it up). I think that in any COD game you play with this lord, the army will do well. Yes Dspeed is great if you want to use your DP as a cruise missile of death (that will get killed), but in the COD games I have played versatility is needed more than just straight out killing power."


Who said anything about using it as a cruise missile? And how is Flight more versatile when Dspeed can get you better movement overall? The other item again that people haven't addressed is the effectiveness on one WoC template. One WoC template is rather easy to defend against. But a unit with several is sick.


"Kreenshaw wrote:The winged DP can fly around at a reasonably fast speed using WOC to thin out units, and charge the weaker units. Also the Winged DP will probably be around till the end of the game to help out with those last ditch efforts to take/keep an objective!"


That could work, but speed would be more effective in achieving that I would think. In most cases models with flight tend to get shot quickly since they are mostly moving into positions that are exposed. But again, I guess it comes down to personal preference.
Capt K

The model and options Mauleed uses is his choice, it's his arrogance at not even considering a possible better option that has fueled this thread.

I'd consider it if it were a better option (or if you guys even made any sense).

For example, one of you pointed out how much more effective 2 flying LTs would be, so I might actually consider a flying LT and 3 flying chosen of Ahriman when the campaign gets to bigger games.

Posted By CaptKaruthors on 07/11/2006 12:11 PM
That could work, but speed would be more effective in achieving that I would think. In most cases models with flight tend to get shot quickly since they are mostly moving into positions that are exposed.
Capt K

In a normal 40k game I would agree with you that models with flight get shot way to soon.  But in COD I have found that there is so much cover/buildings that being shot down with wings is unlikely.
also in the wings vs DS.

I understand that when charging DS, is the better choice.  (also better in more open games)

But Wings give a standard movement 12inches per turn, while DS is 6+d6.  (There will be turns where your not charging things)
Also with the wings threes is little doubt that you can get to a unit on the 3rd floor.  (I know that DS has a good chance of making it up 3 floors but its not a sure thing.)

If Ed were playing a h2h only monster DP I would agree with the DS.  But it seems like he was looking for a more versatile DP so I agree with the wings.

I see where your argument is valid, but I just don't think it works as well in this situation (my opinion). 

@Kreenshaw: I see your point, but the thing that perplexes me is why would you spend points on D Stature for a weapon that predominately shoots? Stature brings a better statline for close combat. There are other ways that you can get WoC on the table to be more effective. But you raise a great point that was brought up earlier. Speed has a better chance at reaching higher floors, where models would be trying to defend against the flight. But maybe a way around that is to field a defiler. That way the opponent will have to place models on lower levels to avoid the potential pie plates.
Capt K

"Mauleed wrote: For example, one of you pointed out how much more effective 2 flying LTs would be, so I might actually consider a flying LT and 3 flying chosen of Ahriman when the campaign gets to bigger games."

Cool. That is a great way of maximizing on WoC. Far better than the DP. How large are the point increments and how often?
Capt K

Also with the wings threes is little doubt that you can get to a unit on the 3rd floor.

Not with WoC and most certainly not with an Assault move.

With Wings, in order to WOC a unit in a building, 9 times out of 10, you have to get into the open, just outside a building to get into the necessary range. You can't get within 1" on an enemy model so landing on the third or second level is impossible.

Then, because you can only flame template the level you are on or one above (or below). You will never flame the third level. Also since you can target only one level, the amount of coverage will be limited. And not to mention if you are attacking a Medicare bulding.

Now, you have killed your WoC casualties. Your turn is ending quick. You would like to keep your DP alive (though because he is not scoring, he is desposible anyway). So either you are caught out in the open, or you charge. If you think you can take the shooting fine, otherwise you make your assault move. Now you get 3 D6 and pick the highest, but say your opponent removes casualties where you are 6+ inches away, or he is entirely on the third floor, you are stuck facing all those nice guns. Congradulations, you spend all those points for a model that killed a few Space Marines and died.

Now with Speed it is a different scenario. Say you stick behind cover on your advance but you are not hindered by any DT tests. Average Fleet roll is 4", so statistically you are moving 10" per turn, which compared to flight is only 6" less than flight over 3 turns.

Now say you approch your building the same way as the flight model and kill the same amount. Now you have the option to charge a much greater distance, keeping your DP from the shooty death that awaits the flight model.

We also haven't addressed the forward movement of the enemy forces (which is neccessary for you opponent to capture the objective. In those scenarios you are facing the same probkems speed has versus flight in standard 40K. Say you catch a Marine unit in the open between buildings, your WoC template work a whole lot better. Now you face the same threat, stand out in the open because all those lovely casualties where pulled to keep you out of close combat, but the beuty of speed is that you are never out of charge range after you use your WoC template.

In the end, all we are argueing is that Speed has a much better versatility compared to flight. And if you are going to spend the points on Stature, you probably want to get into assault. Now that doesn't discount Flight as a valid choice, but like I said you are probably better off with a few flying LTs than a Statured one.

Posted" by="" captkaruthors="" on="" 07/11/2006="" 12:50="" pm="">
@Kreenshaw: I see your point, but the thing that perplexes me is why would you spend points on D Stature for a weapon that predominately shoots?

Why would you not?  I don't have a codex on my at the moment, but isn't DS only like 15points?  And reasonably any lord is going to want some CC ability.  Why would you not want all the other benefits. 
You are right in that its not the absolute cheapest way to field WOC but for the 15 pts its worth it to be versatile.

Basic rule of thumb thats undeniable:

Its much easier to drop a flamer template properly, catching the maxium number of enemy under it, with a 12" move, than a 6" move(fleet or no fleet).

Basic rule of thumb thats undeniable:

Its much easier to drop a flamer template properly, catching the maxium number of enemy under it, with a 12" move, than a 6" move(fleet or no fleet).

Of course.

The main arguements here are that flight is better if you plan to use WOC (an 8 in templat) and that speed allows you to charge farther. Neither of these are in dispute. The problem is that the people arguing on the different sides have different purposes in mind.

First off, on all turns when not charging flight is better than speed, not by much but it is obviously so. When you charge if you are planning on shooting then they both move the same distance so if you have charge problems with one you will usually have them with the other (tall buildings being the only difference as speed gets you up one more floor during its charge move).

If you are going to pay the points for WOC you need to use it. It is to expensive to just sit on it. A guy who moves 6 inches and shoots will never get many enemy models under the template. Sure the 12 in charge gets you prety far afterwords but you wased the points for the WOC.

If you want to use the shooting attack it is better to take demonic flight as you can fly next to the enemy models and then shoot them guaranteing many guys under the template and still a fairly good chance of assulting them afterwords (if you are routinly killing all the guys in charge range you have a whole different problem and need to rethink your strategy).

Basically if what you want to do is charge in and cause carnage dont take WOC and take demonic speed. For that purpose it is better. If you want to use WOC dont take demonic speed, take flight.

I wonder if this thread would've gone 5 pages if it was anybody but Mauleed asking? Proving him wrong seems to be the motivation here.

Part of the problem is that speed is the best choice 90% of the time for a large list of reasons.
The initial post about speed just stated it was always the best choice with no backup.

Nobody bothered to talk about why it was better for this particular situation until after they had established their position. Once this is done people cant backoff.

Proving him wrong seems to be the motivation here.

Being unwilling to admit he's right is more like it.

Basically if what you want to do is charge in and cause carnage dont take WOC and take demonic speed. For that purpose it is better.

I don't agree with that.

Remember that we are talking about city fight (and it also holds for other times as well). But if you want to jump from cover to cover so you don't get shot up. With speed, you can move as little as 7". If you are trying to cross a street, or get to the nearest piece of terrain for cover so you can hide your DP, and it is 10" away, you can make it easy with D. Flight, but if you roll badly with your FoF, you can leave yourself open to a world of hurt.