I dunno, I just was never all that impressed by their past offerings, zombicide was okay but I didnt really get into it until recently. A lot of their stuff I still find kinda meh, but they got some true gems in their range as well.
I am an avid warhammer of almost two decades. CMON got me into board games and I have to say that zombicide, Acadia quest, rivet wars, wrath of kings, xenoshyft, etc have been a blast. We actually play these more than infinity, 40k, wfb, battletech, etc now!
CMON are pretty smart and pick and choose games they know are winners. Most of their games bridge the gap of board game and miniature game/cmg. They get hate like GW juat because they are a major contender now.
I love guillotine games and cmon, I was Leary with this game because of mcvey, but he stuck to the mini designs which is where he shines. This game looks awesome and I am fully on board now that we have all 7 sins and the apocalypse box!
chaos0xomega wrote: I dunno, I just was never all that impressed by their past offerings, zombicide was okay but I didnt really get into it until recently. A lot of their stuff I still find kinda meh, but they got some true gems in their range as well.
What all have you played?
One that I did not back on the KS was Dogs of War, and was incredibly surprised how much I liked it when I played it. Pretty fantastic game.
A bunch of stuff. Dark Age (1st ed) was a bit of a letdown, it died pretty quickly in my area and everyone lost interest. Sedition Wars and Relic Knights were mehhhhh to the extreme, Kaosball also. Zombicide, like I said, was okay, but we had the issue where we would run out of zombies and as a result they started activating twice and it got stupid pretty quick. It wasn't until later on after Season 2/3 that it began to feel reasonably playable as a fun game that wouldn't end in an exercise in frustration. Aside from those games, most of their other offerings simply haven't appealed to me from a gameplay or fluff perspective.
I have been wanting to give Rivet Wars a try but haven't had the opportunity yet.
chaos0xomega wrote: A bunch of stuff. Dark Age (1st ed) was a bit of a letdown, it died pretty quickly in my area and everyone lost interest. Sedition Wars and Relic Knights were mehhhhh to the extreme, Kaosball also. Zombicide, like I said, was okay, but we had the issue where we would run out of zombies and as a result they started activating twice and it got stupid pretty quick. It wasn't until later on after Season 2/3 that it began to feel reasonably playable as a fun game that wouldn't end in an exercise in frustration. Aside from those games, most of their other offerings simply haven't appealed to me from a gameplay or fluff perspective.
I have been wanting to give Rivet Wars a try but haven't had the opportunity yet.
Hah, I can see where your opinion would be colored based on what you've played.
I personally enjoy Kaosball, but can understand where it may not be someone's cuppa.
Rivet Wars is a really fun, approachable game. I'm hoping we see a second starter with the Ottomans and the Ruskies sooner rather than later.
If you enjoy unique co-ops, The Grizzled is fantastic. Very unique WW1 co-op. Only $20 MSRP.
One of the guys in my local group has the entire kickstarter setup which he offered to sell to me, however I haven't really been able to find a good in depth review of the game to determine if its something I'd be interested in, so until we can find a time to sit down and play that is kind of on-hold. I know there are some videos out there, but I do most of my internet browsing at work, and besides that I prefer to read rather than watch a video.
The Grizzled sounds interesting but I havent been able to find any information about it either.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: I'm guessing the Grizzled was a direct release? I had heard of it, knew it was coming, but that was the last I heard.
Total seems to be steadily going up as well.
I guess all the fence sitters waiting for that 7th sin are starting to commit.
It'a the 48 hour warning/reminder. It's what got me to toss a dollar in. I'm sure theres others that waited to see and have now pulled the trigger with the reminder email.
chaos0xomega wrote: A bunch of stuff. Dark Age (1st ed) was a bit of a letdown, it died pretty quickly in my area and everyone lost interest. Sedition Wars and Relic Knights were mehhhhh to the extreme, Kaosball also. Zombicide, like I said, was okay, but we had the issue where we would run out of zombies and as a result they started activating twice and it got stupid pretty quick. It wasn't until later on after Season 2/3 that it began to feel reasonably playable as a fun game that wouldn't end in an exercise in frustration. Aside from those games, most of their other offerings simply haven't appealed to me from a gameplay or fluff perspective.
I have been wanting to give Rivet Wars a try but haven't had the opportunity yet.
I have admittedly little board game experience but I've found Rum and Bones to be fun.
As to the actual KS for The Others.. I hadn't looked at it for a while. The men of faith look rather pants :( The sculpts they're previewing aren't really close to the others IMO.
Loving the look of the hounds of Wrath.
Is there a good place to get CMoN Board Games at a discount post KS if I miss out on them? Respect to FLGSs but I can't pay the prices most of them charge (retail..gah!?!? what!!?!?)
I just added a dollar. I'll look into it when the PM comes around, but I like the Apoc set and am a bit indifferent to the others. I get to boardgame once a week if I'm lucky, and we're still at the point of Zombicide S2+Expack, with TONS of others unopened as of yet. I don't really understand the premise of this one from my casual glances, and the figures aren't enough to tip me over at this stage.
In for a buck as well. The shipping charges on Zombicide Black Plague were a bit of a shocker, so it makes more sense (to me) to wait for the pledge manager so I can get the full picture cost-wise.
Dearly hoping the shipping costs go back to what they were from Z3 and earlier, as I really am into those monster figs.
Yeah, the Black Plague shipping costs from a local hub turned out to be almost as much as ZC S2 coming from the US. I paid it and got all the stuff I did since it simply works out cheaper overall then buying it locally or ordering from the US later, but ouch.
I did it for Zombicide, but for other games? Not so much.
Probably a 5th non KS exclusive hero - 5 heroes plus police and firemen acolytes plus 5 non exclusive tiles plus upgrade cards plus 3 dice = a new team expansion for retail which backers get as part of their pledge
This is looking like a great deal now (as expected) but I may still have to skip just because I just blew almost $200 on HINT. Gonna throw in $1 for the pledge manager though, maybe next month I can swing it.
You can make a $1 pledge now, and when the Pledge Manager goes live after the campaign has ended you can add more funds to get a full pledge and any add-ons you'd like.
You can make a $1 pledge now, and when the Pledge Manager goes live after the campaign has ended you can add more funds to get a full pledge and any add-ons you'd like.
Yeah, but the "get a full pledge and add any add-ons" was a bit to vague for me, especially since many people here said that you probably won't be able to buy Apocalypse by itself. I asked CMON to clarify if that meant I could less that $100 and buy only add-ons, but since they were incapable to send me any sort of reply in the last five or so days, I pulled the my pledge.
Yeah, but the "get a full pledge and add any add-ons" was a bit to vague for me, especially since many people here said that you probably won't be able to buy Apocalypse by itself. I asked CMON to clarify if that meant I could less that $100 and buy only add-ons, but since they were incapable to send me any sort of reply in the last five or so days, I pulled the my pledge.
The answer is no.
You have to pick a valid pledge level in order to place an order for add-ons.
If you only want add ons, you'll have to piggy back with someone else.
You should be able to add the individual sin boxes in the PM.
You can make a $1 pledge now, and when the Pledge Manager goes live after the campaign has ended you can add more funds to get a full pledge and any add-ons you'd like.
Yeah, but the "get a full pledge and add any add-ons" was a bit to vague for me, especially since many people here said that you probably won't be able to buy Apocalypse by itself. I asked CMON to clarify if that meant I could less that $100 and buy only add-ons, but since they were incapable to send me any sort of reply in the last five or so days, I pulled the my pledge.
During the Rivet Wars campaign, I was told I would be allowed to pledge for add ons only. Then when the pledge manager went live, I was told that was no longer an option, and given a refund. CMON does not allow for add on only pledging, not even during the pledge manager phase.
I really like the Norse Gods biker set. It is unique and some of the best sculpts so far (they also really fit the theme of the game).
As for the $1 pledge. Most kickstarters will not let you pledge a dollar to get into the manager for add ons. The "add ons" are exactly that, added onto/above and beyond the base pledge... which is $100.
If you don't want the $100 pledge, you could buy it and piece it out on ebay. Even at reduced value on ebay, the core set, expansions, promos, etc, will net you more than double your $100 investment. Hell, that would pay for your pledge, apocalypse set, and give you money in your pocket to boot.
The promos alone will quadruple in value. Im currently trying to acquire missing promo figs from Zombicide Season 1, 2, and 3, and the going rate on ebay is like $50... each.
It's the shame that the sons of ragnarok are not antagonist hell club replacements rather then more heroes as that would have added a bit more gameplay (I am still down for them).
Bomster wrote: Yeah, but the "get a full pledge and add any add-ons" was a bit to vague for me, especially since many people here said that you probably won't be able to buy Apocalypse by itself. I asked CMON to clarify if that meant I could less that $100 and buy only add-ons, but since they were incapable to send me any sort of reply in the last five or so days, I pulled the my pledge.
You can just wait for the add-ons to show up at the OLGS, same or better discount, no shipping cost. (No exclusives, either, of course.)
The Apocalypse miniatures are FANTASTIC. Maybe I'll even have time to paint them when they hit retail. (Yeah, right.)
While I wouldn't expect the Z:BP sticker shock (Others has fewer mini's), I guess the theme didn't get me as much as I thought it would. I dropped my pledge and will take a look at Cthulhu Wars.
I guess I'm more for "tentacles and blobs with human parts" than "human parts with tentacles and blobs" fan.
chaos0xomega wrote: The promos alone will quadruple in value. Im currently trying to acquire missing promo figs from Zombicide Season 1, 2, and 3, and the going rate on ebay is like $50... each.
I doubt that these ones will jump in value like the Zombicide ones. (Especially S1). Zombicide is a lightning-in-a-bottle kinda thing. While I'm sure that these will increase in value, and there'll undoubtedly be some on eBay trying their luck, they won't be in the same value/resale league as any of the Zombicides.
Those Sons of Ragnarok are really tempting me. I could use them as Orlock stand-ins. Compared to ebay prices they're a steal! Tyr and Heimdall are too samey and Tyr is overall pretty lame, but I love the rest. Thor and his DAKKA gun \m/ Freya <3
As a European it's basically now or never (unless I want to be price gouged), though, and the Men of Faith DO have a flamethrower priest (I need new Redemptionists and Cawdor, c'mon, GW, give Necromunda the Space Hulk treatment ;_ and are exclusives. Probably going for base game, Apoc box and one additional box only. Team boxes have some cool but also some lame heroes eqch, but none of them are as cool models as the SoR or the voodo man and his priest pal. Sigh.
Who would have thought that it would be CMON beating Kingdom Death to the punch with making a straight up creature that looks like a vagina? (Re: the actual Nicolas model...)
Salacious Greed wrote: Who would have thought that it would be CMON beating Kingdom Death to the punch with making a straight up creature that looks like a vagina? (Re: the actual Nicolas model...)
chaos0xomega wrote: The promos alone will quadruple in value. Im currently trying to acquire missing promo figs from Zombicide Season 1, 2, and 3, and the going rate on ebay is like $50... each.
I doubt that these ones will jump in value like the Zombicide ones. (Especially S1). Zombicide is a lightning-in-a-bottle kinda thing. While I'm sure that these will increase in value, and there'll undoubtedly be some on eBay trying their luck, they won't be in the same value/resale league as any of the Zombicides.
Yeah, from season 3 onward, zombicide KS exclusives really arent' an "investment", they are barely breaking even. I accidentally bought an extra Audrey in my pledge manager, and they go for like 14 bucks. Since I paid $10, that's not even worth the time to mail it. Season 1 and 2 were before the game really caught on, so there was an actual scarcity. Now it's like people who hoard modern toys or comics thinking they will go up in value when they are produced in droves and people have a collector's mindset.
Salacious Greed wrote: Who would have thought that it would be CMON beating Kingdom Death to the punch with making a straight up creature that looks like a vagina? (Re: the actual Nicolas model...)
Have you looked at the underside of the Nightmare Ram? It's hard to see that as anything else...
But yeah, the Others is full of vagina dentata monsters.
I would pledge if they had an add-on only pledge to get the biker gang. I have a use for them, but no way I'm pledging for the whole game just to add them on.
CptJake wrote: I would pledge if they had an add-on only pledge to get the biker gang. I have a use for them, but no way I'm pledging for the whole game just to add them on.
Have you considered finding a fellow Dakka-ite to piggy back on?
CptJake wrote: I would pledge if they had an add-on only pledge to get the biker gang. I have a use for them, but no way I'm pledging for the whole game just to add them on.
CptJake wrote: I would pledge if they had an add-on only pledge to get the biker gang. I have a use for them, but no way I'm pledging for the whole game just to add them on.
Have you considered finding a fellow Dakka-ite to piggy back on?
I hear you. I think I'm the only aussie in this thread - at least in the last few pages. I'm down for $1 but I think it's going to go the way of Rum and Bones. I'm also not pledging well over AU$100 plus shipping to allow me to buy some other models that I'd like.
Add ons of old stuff I could understand companies being wary,
but for something like this where the 'add on' is part of the campaign, and (technically) paid for by the campaign I can see no possible reason KS would object (especially as they are getting paid for it if it happens during the campaign
Cincy is pretty much always going to defend CMON's choices, quality and so forth as he's an insider and does some occasional work for/with them - so it's probably a moot point choosing to argue any of that with him.
CMON could do it if they wanted to, but they simply don't want to. It's pretty straightforward.
Azazelx wrote: Cincy is pretty much always going to defend CMON's choices, quality and so forth as he's an insider and does some occasional work for/with them - so it's probably a moot point choosing to argue any of that with him.
CMON could do it if they wanted to, but they simply don't want to. It's pretty straightforward.
Not really defending in this instance. Rather, telling you the deliberate choice that was made.
It's why a lot of the promos aren't ever for sale; due to the likeness issues were they to be sold it could elicit negative reactions from the likeness holders/IP owners. The situation with Marvin and Eva from Zombicide 1 prompted all that.
CptJake wrote: I don't have a problem with them doing it that way either, it clearly works for them. I was just pointing out their way does not work for me.
And that's fine for everybody.
While I was excited over the Apoc expansion, and expected that they'd unlock all 7 Sins, I was unimpressed by the push to have so many Faith teams and Acolytes but not a single Hell Club addition aside from the Mayor and slug rider. Plus, it's a little disappointing that Faith teams are largely random mixes of unrelated guys, whereas it would have been nice to have themed super SWAT & SEAL teams, with ordinary military and police to assist. But then, I'm not the director, just a potential customer who ultimately didn't back.
Even without either of us backing, CMoN will have raised $1.5M for a very successful campaign from over 10,000 backers, so they did quite well.
Alpharius wrote: Still hard to believe that The Others made 1.5M and Warpath is still struggling to get up to 400K.
Or...not.
There's more money in the boardgaming (no assembly or painting) than miniatures gaming (assembly and painting). Warpath is funding the same as Mantic's other miniatures gaming projects, Deadzone and Kings of War.
Mantic's Dungeon Saga made money ($1M) because it, like CMON's projects, went after boardgamers and miniatures gamers. My guess is that since it was a generic fantasy dungeon crawler, or it didn't have Eric Lang's recent popularity, or it wasn't promoted as well as The Others (doubt the last one), it didn't make as much money as the Others.
This.... Board games have always made more money then miniature based wargames (with a small few exceptions) Mantic did very well with DS and I reckon once the dust has settled when it lands we will be getting a Project Pandora one.
I don't think the Eric Lang popularity is a new thing. The guy has made a lot of popular board games. It's not like having his name attached to Kaosball made that into a huge hit for CMON either.
Big cool looking minis sell, especially when they're at a good price and hold a lot of detail (and from a boardgaming perspective) don't need to be put together and are set to go as soon as you open the box.
Mantic don't do too shabby when they try to play in that arena. Remember that the original Deadzone tried to cater to board gamers as well and was able to break a million long before Dungeon Saga did. The second Deadzone campaign seemed less focused on creating a product that would appeal to board gamers, going more the route of Necromunda in being a boxed game with more of a hobbyist appeal.
Overtyrant hit it right on the money though. If and when Mantic get around to redoing Project Pandora (hopefully similar to how Vermonter and company envisioned it), with one piece plastic figures, boards, plastic tokens and all that jazz, I'm sure they'll have another million dollar campaign on their plates.
Alpharius wrote: Still hard to believe that The Others made 1.5M and Warpath is still struggling to get up to 400K.
Or...not.
I think that The Apocalypse box set will end being one of their best sellers ever...
Why? Miniatures board games are the big money, and CMoN knows it. Just look at their project by type, and it's clear that preassembled miniature board games do better than the ones you need to build, which do better than the non-minis games. Soda Pop Miniatures is the same way, going back to the well with SDE : Legends after successful SDE:FK and NAS miniatures board game Kickstarters. Or Conan. Heck, even those shady fethers behind the new not-HeroQuest...
It's no accident that the average backer pledged enough for the base game + Apocalypse - that's a killer set, and I may pick it up at retail.
Azazelx wrote: Cincy is pretty much always going to defend CMON's choices, quality and so forth as he's an insider and does some occasional work for/with them - so it's probably a moot point choosing to argue any of that with him.
CMON could do it if they wanted to, but they simply don't want to. It's pretty straightforward.
Not really defending in this instance. Rather, telling you the deliberate choice that was made.
It's why a lot of the promos aren't ever for sale; due to the likeness issues were they to be sold it could elicit negative reactions from the likeness holders/IP owners. The situation with Marvin and Eva from Zombicide 1 prompted all that.
With the promos it makes perfect sense. With other non-KS-exclusives like the Apocalypse Demons or Sons of Ragnarok it simply comes down to them not wanting to. They could if they wanted, to, but they choose not to. It simply is what it is, and, you know, fine, whatever - but arguing that those specific reasons are why you can't just pledge for non-copyright infringing add-ons which are also entirely funded by the KS campaign of the moment is a bit more of a stretch.
Alpharius wrote: Still hard to believe that The Others made 1.5M and Warpath is still struggling to get up to 400K.
Or...not.
There's more money in the boardgaming (no assembly or painting) than miniatures gaming (assembly and painting). Warpath is funding the same as Mantic's other miniatures gaming projects, Deadzone and Kings of War.
Mantic's Dungeon Saga made money ($1M) because it, like CMON's projects, went after boardgamers and miniatures gamers. My guess is that since it was a generic fantasy dungeon crawler, or it didn't have Eric Lang's recent popularity, or it wasn't promoted as well as The Others (doubt the last one), it didn't make as much money as the Others.
Im sure it has nothing to do with Mantics crappy plastic quality (I find it to be very brittle and thin, feels cheap really), or terrible sculpts/design, or the fact that they are unabashedly copying GWs IP in an attempt to steal over GW gamers.
Alpharius wrote: Still hard to believe that The Others made 1.5M and Warpath is still struggling to get up to 400K.
Or...not.
There's more money in the boardgaming (no assembly or painting) than miniatures gaming (assembly and painting). Warpath is funding the same as Mantic's other miniatures gaming projects, Deadzone and Kings of War.
Mantic's Dungeon Saga made money ($1M) because it, like CMON's projects, went after boardgamers and miniatures gamers. My guess is that since it was a generic fantasy dungeon crawler, or it didn't have Eric Lang's recent popularity, or it wasn't promoted as well as The Others (doubt the last one), it didn't make as much money as the Others.
Im sure it has nothing to do with Mantics crappy plastic quality (I find it to be very brittle and thin, feels cheap really), or terrible sculpts/design, or the fact that they are unabashedly copying GWs IP in an attempt to steal over GW gamers.
Or the fact that Mantic has urinated all over backers multiple times with changing things (plastic to restic, maps to posters, we'll reopen the pledge manager again later to your stuck with what you got) and failing to follow up with backers( I still haven't gotten my living legend pledge even though they sent me my Blaine on dinosaur saying this completes your order). They told backer wait three weeks before sending your missing items list after posting that everything has shipped and showing how few undeliverables they got back, then haven't bothered to contact us since that date to say anything.
I think they've burned their name pretty good in the wargaming market. They say they want to help retailers, but Kickstarter does the opposite of that. Plus they keep offering the same items in the next KS for the same or very close to it price. Plus the whole pledge $1 to get in now box compared to CMON which will allow the $1 backers, but they don't advertise it and it gets asked a hundred times each campaign. So with CMON they have to pay up front and get higher totals just from that perspective.
Alpharius wrote: Still hard to believe that The Others made 1.5M and Warpath is still struggling to get up to 400K.
Or...not.
I think that The Apocalypse box set will end being one of their best sellers ever...
Why? Miniatures board games are the big money, and CMoN knows it. Just look at their project by type, and it's clear that preassembled miniature board games do better than the ones you need to build, which do better than the non-minis games. Soda Pop Miniatures is the same way, going back to the well with SDE : Legends after successful SDE:FK and NAS miniatures board game Kickstarters. Or Conan. Heck, even those shady fethers behind the new not-HeroQuest...
It's no accident that the average backer pledged enough for the base game + Apocalypse - that's a killer set, and I may pick it up at retail.
I should have phrased that a bit better - I know board games are really popular now, and well don ones, with Big Names attached, will do very well indeed.
I'm more surprised that WARPATH isn't doing a lot better.
As far as The Others go, the monster miniatures here are really, really well done - they seem to be pushing the boundaries of what can be done for board games with 'board game plastic'!
Im sure it has nothing to do with Mantics crappy plastic quality (I find it to be very brittle and thin, feels cheap really), or terrible sculpts/design, or the fact that they are unabashedly copying GWs IP in an attempt to steal over GW gamers.
To date, I've only build some of their older HIPS models, made by Renedra, but the plastic in all of their Renedra kits (at the very least) is very good. And yes and no on the IP front. I'm happy to call a skaven a skaven and a squat a squat, but let's not pretend that the vast majority of GW's IP isn;t anything more than a new spin on an old trope, and sometimes barely that much.
I should have phrased that a bit better - I know board games are really popular now, and well don ones, with Big Names attached, will do very well indeed.
I'm more surprised that WARPATH isn't doing a lot better.
That's a bit off-topic isn't it? Don't make me report you to the mods!
Im sure it has nothing to do with Mantics crappy plastic quality (I find it to be very brittle and thin, feels cheap really), or terrible sculpts/design, or the fact that they are unabashedly copying GWs IP in an attempt to steal over GW gamers.
To date, I've only build some of their older HIPS models, made by Renedra, but the plastic in all of their Renedra kits (at the very least) is very good. And yes and no on the IP front. I'm happy to call a skaven a skaven and a squat a squat, but let's not pretend that the vast majority of GW's IP isn;t anything more than a new spin on an old trope, and sometimes barely that much.
To my knowledge, GW is the first to put elves and dwarves in space, so thats something. I'm hardly a GW fanboy, in fact I haven't played the game since shortly after the previous edition dropped. I've spent the past 2 months or so selling off the majority of my GW product, but even I find Mantics business 'model' kinda sad.
Alpharius wrote: Still hard to believe that The Others made 1.5M and Warpath is still struggling to get up to 400K.
Or...not.
Why? Miniatures board games are the big money, and CMoN knows it.
I should have phrased that a bit better - I know board games are really popular now, and well don ones, with Big Names attached, will do very well indeed.
I'm more surprised that WARPATH isn't doing a lot better.
As far as The Others go, the monster miniatures here are really, really well done - they seem to be pushing the boundaries of what can be done for board games with 'board game plastic'!
Oh, sorry. As far as Mantic Warpath, the fundamental problem is that it's another Warzone / Vor / VOID / Relic Knights (sorta) / Medge - a wannabe 40k that just won't ever be 40k. Worse, that it's really derivative of 40k, intentionally or subconsciously - if I wanted to play 40k, I'd continue to play 40k, rather than gamble on Warpath. And the Mantic approach of bridging GW product simply doesn't work, because it's a tacit admission that their game doesn't stand on its own. Far better had they gone the Flames of War / Warmahordes route and done something completely different. Or even reconcepted the game as a skirmish board game a la not-Blood Bowl. That would have put them on more equal footing with the Others.
When you say the Others minis are pushing the boundries, I wonder if you backed Journey : Wrath of Demons? http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588487845/journey-wrath-of-demons I believe that Journey currently represents the high water mark of actual mass-production plastics for a miniatures board game. It is gorgeously detailed and the large models really show it off. Between J:WoD and KD:M, I am really loving this whole boutique boardgaming thing, which is another part of the reason why I didn't back the Others - it doesn't quite compare to what I got with those two games. Sure, I got half as many models with J:WoD and KD:M, but they are amazing. ____
chaos0xomega wrote: I've spent the past 2 months or so selling off the majority of my GW product, but even I find Mantics business 'model' kinda sad.
How did that go, and what did you keep vs sell? Is your ex-GW money feeding board games like the Others?
Alpharius wrote: Still hard to believe that The Others made 1.5M and Warpath is still struggling to get up to 400K.
Or...not.
I think that The Apocalypse box set will end being one of their best sellers ever...
Why? Miniatures board games are the big money, and CMoN knows it. Just look at their project by type, and it's clear that preassembled miniature board games do better than the ones you need to build, which do better than the non-minis games. Soda Pop Miniatures is the same way, going back to the well with SDE : Legends after successful SDE:FK and NAS miniatures board game Kickstarters. Or Conan. Heck, even those shady fethers behind the new not-HeroQuest...
It's no accident that the average backer pledged enough for the base game + Apocalypse - that's a killer set, and I may pick it up at retail.
I should have phrased that a bit better - I know board games are really popular now, and well don ones, with Big Names attached, will do very well indeed.
I'm more surprised that WARPATH isn't doing a lot better.
As far as The Others go, the monster miniatures here are really, really well done - they seem to be pushing the boundaries of what can be done for board games with 'board game plastic'!
When you have so many tabletop gamers wanting nothing but HIP ( a very unrealistic material to produce miniatures in) that only 2% of all miniature companies will ever produce in, and these few being made up of ex GW employees who have experince with such materials that no new company could ever have, and gamers complain constantly about metal or resin, always asking when comapnies will produce in HIP or refusing to buy until they do. a large part of this mind set is from being indoctrinated by GW to always want HIP.
Look at mantics games, poor sculpts and very poor art direction but they succeed in the 400 000 mark ( i wouldnt call that a failure at all) but companies with the best miniatures in the industry such as the current Mercie kickstarter is just at 27 thousand british pounds (last i checked) a mere fraction of Mantics kickstarter. Why? because gamers are so focused on the mind set of HIP over everything else that they lose site of great quality miniatures, rules, setting and everything else.
So when companies like mine look at the market we see that if we ever want to get anywhere even if we produce the best quality sculpted minis, gamers will never support us as well as the HIP companies or even at all if we produce in metal and or resin.
Table top miniature gaming has become a market highly focused HIP only with a few exception companies like PP , Infinity ect. Their is much more of a market in miniature board gaming , a much better likely hood of being supported on kickstarter to help get your first few games out to start your company. You can produce in PVC which is yes a far less quality material than all the other options out their, but is by far way more affordable than HIP will ever be. With this being the case, we can produce a succesful game and full product in an industry that is far bigger and more welcoming of new companies. So hence this is why miniature board gaming is growing and each kickstarter outreaching the average miniature ones.
If you yourself dosent like this, then begin supporting more miniature tabletop games, expsecially ones produced in metal and resin because the numbers dont lie if you want to get into the gaming industry right now, miniature board gaming is the right path to go on for new starting companies and older ones alike. Gamers are voting with their wallets and more and more companies will be going over to miniature board gaming.
Wrath of Kings is still struggeling to get a foot hold and their product is produced in HIP, Dark Age is having a very hard time gaining traction in the market even with brand new stunning sculpts. Gamers seem to want cheap HIP "toys" with poor sculpting and detail over high quality miniatures, so since HIP is not affordable even kickstarted the better path is to go with Miniature board gaming.
( Also to note, their are many very interesting styles of games you can do in the miniature board gaming market that you just could never do in the tabletop area, many gamers want only a few set styles of games were board gamers are much more open too new and interesting ideas, sorry if this offends anyone but this is what i have seen time and time again.)
When you say the Others minis are pushing the boundries, I wonder if you backed Journey : Wrath of Demons?
Kingdom Death called, they would like to have a talk with you regarding the quality of their minis vis-a-vis Journey.
How did that go, and what did you keep vs sell? Is your ex-GW money feeding board games like the Others?
Right now I'm down to a few books which I'm trying to sell off, a large Daemons army that Im debating selling, and odds and ends from Tau/Eldar that I'm not sure what to do with, as well as a large Ogre Kingdoms force which I intend to keep as a modeling project. The value of the stuff I've sold has rather notably depreciated, moreso than usual (used to be able to get about 50-60% retail for used stuff, now im getting 25-40% if I'm lucky), I believe this reduction in value is a result of a combination of general disinterest in the game, especially when it comes to models/armies that aren't currently 'top-tier', and the increasing prevalence of chinese recasts as well. The money is most definitely being used for products from other companies, especially board games (I've picked up zombicide, backed the others, late pledged black plague, trying to late pledge Lobotomy, bought someone elses Kingdom Death pledge), but I've also been buying more Infinity, Warmahordes, and Malifaux stuff recently, as well as Wrath of Kings, X-Wing, Armada, and Halo Fleet Battles.
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Look at mantics games, poor sculpts and very poor art direction but they succeed in the 400 000 mark ( i wouldnt call that a failure at all) but companies with the best miniatures in the industry such as the current Mercie kickstarter is just at 27 thousand british pounds (last i checked) a mere fraction of Mantics kickstarter. Why? because gamers are so focused on the mind set of HIP over everything else that they lose site of great quality miniatures, rules, setting and everything else.
I think you're addressing the symptom and not the problem (or something). Mierce isn't getting the same funding as Mantic because of *VALUE*, not because of a dislike for resin. HIPS is, simply put, orders of magnitude cheaper to produce models in than resin or metal is. I can give Mierc $100 and I'll get 5-10 miniatures total for that contribution... or I could give CMoN or Mantic $100 and get 50-100 miniatures in return. Yes, the quality of the Mierce minis is much better, detail wise, but the CMoN/Mantic stuff looks cool enough to make up for it.
Wrath of Kings isn't in HIPs, and we were talking about PVC/"Boardgame Plastic" in terms of 'pushing the boundaries', and KD: M is, of course, in HIPs.
overtyrant wrote: You call Mantics sculpts poor and yet you have some strange looking wolf things that I wouldt touch even if they only cost 50p a pop.....
Sorry if any offence was caused but hey there you go it's what I've seen....
I think Mantic's design aesthetic is a little more divisional that some other lines seems to be.
I very much like the design of their Rebs faction. I put in for quite a bit with Deadzone, and was incredibly disappointed with the poor casting quality.
I also think their Orks (Orcs? Orcks?) look great. The Deadzone orks were also, far and away, their best castings.
And since you mentioned werewolves....Mantic's werewolves are just kinda weird looking to me. The placement of their fur is just odd.
As for The Others v. Journey: Dave C posted a comparison photo a while back. I have models from both, and I really don't see a difference in their production quality. What I think sets Journey apart is that their design aesthetic and overall sculpt quality are pretty universally lauded, and rightly so. Ray is amazing, and the new piece that Carrosco just sculpted for them is sublime.
So when companies like mine look at the market we see that if we ever want to get anywhere even if we produce the best quality sculpted minis, gamers will never support us as well as the HIP companies or even at all if we produce in metal and or resin.
They will if you can make a competitive value proposition. Problem is, value is more measurable as a function of quantity than it is as a function quality. Most gamers want a good middle ground between the two, but generally speaking the preference leans towards quantity moreso than it does quality. Gamers are hoarders and collectors, not hobbyists and artists.
Table top miniature gaming has become a market highly focused HIP only with a few exception companies like PP , Infinity ect. Their is much more of a market in miniature board gaming , a much better likely hood of being supported on kickstarter to help get your first few games out to start your company. You can produce in PVC which is yes a far less quality material than all the other options out their, but is by far way more affordable than HIP will ever be. With this being the case, we can produce a succesful game and full product in an industry that is far bigger and more welcoming of new companies. So hence this is why miniature board gaming is growing and each kickstarter outreaching the average miniature ones.
You'll notice that the games/companies you listed, PP and Infinity, are skirmish scale games that don't require a lot of minis. Thus the value proposition shifts in favor of non HIPS models, since I dont *need* hundreds of models, only 10-20. Also keep in mind, Battlefront, despite introducing HIPs minis, is and was dominated by metals and resin minis.
If you yourself dosent like this, then begin supporting more miniature tabletop games, expsecially ones produced in metal and resin because the numbers dont lie if you want to get into the gaming industry right now, miniature board gaming is the right path to go on for new starting companies and older ones alike. Gamers are voting with their wallets and more and more companies will be going over to miniature board gaming.
Again I think you're confusing things. The reason board games are more successful is because they are more accessible to wider audiences. Playing a 'true' tabletop wargame is expensive, it comes with the expectation that you build and paint expensive models, as well as building and painting a table to play on. Board games come prebuilt (and sometimes painted), and require no extra work. On top of that, everything I need is included in a single box, which also doubles as storage for it all (at least theoretically). I open the package and I'm ready to play. When I'm done, it packs back into the box it came in and goes on the shelf. On top of that, because they are being produced in cheaply mass-produced materials(contrary to your statement about PVC, HIPS is actually cheaper in the long run, PVC is only preferable because it has a lower initial production cost for mold tooling), I get more stuff for my dollar. No it might not be as detailed or as finely made as your product is, but it doesn't *need* to be. Its a gaming piece, not a work of art. Making expensive high quality models doesn't work if I need to purchase dozens of them to play a game.
Wrath of Kings is still struggeling to get a foot hold and their product is produced in HIP
Its not HIPS. Its also pretty popular, at least here in the North Jersey/NYC area. If they're struggling for market share its because they are operating in a very crowded niche of an already crowded niche market area, coupled with the fact that its a relatively new product line with not a lot of stuff to buy. I've invested about $120 and I already own more than I can use in the largest sized game possible (for my faction).
Dark Age is having a very hard time gaining traction in the market even with brand new stunning sculpts.
The models are nice, I own some, but the game is (in my opinion) kinda meh, not very easy to follow the rules, etc.
Gamers seem to want cheap HIP "toys" with poor sculpting and detail over high quality miniatures, so since HIP is not affordable even kickstarted the better path is to go with Miniature board gaming.
You sound really bitter.
( Also to note, their are many very interesting styles of games you can do in the miniature board gaming market that you just could never do in the tabletop area, many gamers want only a few set styles of games were board gamers are much more open too new and interesting ideas, sorry if this offends anyone but this is what i have seen time and time again.)
Still sounding bitter.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As an aside, I, personally (and most others I know) actually prefer working with resin/pvc (similar to Hawk/DZC, as well as wrath of kings or forgeworld) over HIPS. Its a more robust material that allows for greater detail. The only reason I like buying plastic minis is because I can get more for the same cost.
When you say the Others minis are pushing the boundries, I wonder if you backed Journey : Wrath of Demons?
Kingdom Death called, they would like to have a talk with you regarding the quality of their minis vis-a-vis Journey.
I own both KD:M and J:WoD, and you are making a preassembled PVC apples to DIY HIPS oranges comparison there. Apples to apples, you would have to compare the initial PVC KD:M items with J:WoD, and you would be hard pressed to claim it superior to Journey.
The real revelation is how KD:M hard plastic surpasses cold cast resin in many ways.
How did that go, and what did you keep vs sell? Is your ex-GW money feeding board games like the Others?
Right now I'm down to a few books which I'm trying to sell off, a large Daemons army that Im debating selling, and odds and ends from Tau/Eldar that I'm not sure what to do with, as well as a large Ogre Kingdoms force which I intend to keep as a modeling project. The value of the stuff I've sold has rather notably depreciated, moreso than usual (used to be able to get about 50-60% retail for used stuff, now im getting 25-40% if I'm lucky), I believe this reduction in value is a result of a combination of general disinterest in the game, especially when it comes to models/armies that aren't currently 'top-tier', and the increasing prevalence of chinese recasts as well.
The money is most definitely being used for products from other companies, especially board games (I've picked up zombicide, backed the others, late pledged black plague, trying to late pledge Lobotomy, bought someone elses Kingdom Death pledge), but I've also been buying more Infinity, Warmahordes, and Malifaux stuff recently, as well as Wrath of Kings, X-Wing, Armada, and Halo Fleet Battles.
That's too bad the bottom is falling out, so I guess I could try to sell off some of my Eldar odds & ends if I'd at least get my money back. If it's largely worthless, I guess it'll sit.
So when companies like mine look at the market we see that if we ever want to get anywhere even if we produce the best quality sculpted minis, gamers will never support us as well as the HIP companies or even at all if we produce in metal and or resin.
Table top miniature gaming has become a market highly focused HIP only with a few exception companies like PP , Infinity ect. Their is much more of a market in miniature board gaming , a much better likely hood of being supported on kickstarter to help get your first few games out to start your company. You can produce in PVC which is yes a far less quality material than all the other options out their, but is by far way more affordable than HIP will ever be.
Wrath of Kings is still struggeling to get a foot hold and their product is produced in HIP, Dark Age is having a very hard time gaining traction in the market even with brand new stunning sculpts. Gamers seem to want cheap HIP "toys" with poor sculpting and detail over high quality miniatures, so since HIP is not affordable even kickstarted the better path is to go with Miniature board gaming.
I'm pretty sure you have no freakin' clue what you're talking about if you're making fundamental mistakes over labeling ("HIP") and materials (WoK).
HIPS = High Impact PolyStyrene - the Styrene is the important bit, because that's the part which requires the hard molds with zero undercuts and a 1.5-degree parting angle. Not specifying the plastic could just as easily reference PolyUrethane or PolyVinyl, which have very different characteristics. HIPS is what
CMoN is pretty much exclusively PVC, the material which dominates Kickstarter games miniatures (by dollar volume). CMoN's Wrath of Kings is primarily PVC with some HIPS weapons bits glued on. The PVC dominates the WOK production effort, not the weapon bitz.
That's too bad the bottom is falling out, so I guess I could try to sell off some of my Eldar odds & ends if I'd at least get my money back. If it's largely worthless, I guess it'll sit.
Very cool, and good choices. Nice variety there
The only reason I'm debating not completely abandoning the game is because every so often I do get the itch to play, mostly to remind myself why I don't play it anymore but otherwise I think I've moved on from GW product.
Also, the new Tau are everything I wanted from this game when I first started in 2002 or 2003.
Wrath of Kings is still struggeling to get a foot hold and their product is produced in HIP, Dark Age is having a very hard time gaining traction in the market even with brand new stunning sculpts. Gamers seem to want cheap HIP "toys" with poor sculpting and detail over high quality miniatures, so since HIP is not affordable even kickstarted the better path is to go with Miniature board gaming.
That would be news to me. I've never heard gamers asking for sub-par quality sculpts even if they are in HIPS.
The reason HIPS is so popular among war gamers (primarily your hobbyists vs your average board gamer) you don't need a lot of effort in prepping, fling and sanding them vs PVS wish is like trying to cut a tire with a butter knife. HIPS does not snap as easily as Resin miniatures. And when comparing them to metal miniatures, paint bonds better to HIPS.
HIPS is just the ideal material in all regards particularly if your are a hobbyist. Still have some heavy metal fans who will only play and paint metal.
Any gamer would want a quality sculpt, but if that gamer is going to spend days, weeks or months painting an army/force they are going to want that rime to be enjoyable. HIPS provides that.
EDIT: and the WoK minis do not have HIPS bits they are ABS aka lego plastic.
Chaos0xomegA- As an aside, I, personally (and most others I know) actually prefer working with resin/pvc (similar to Hawk/DZC, as well as wrath of kings or forgeworld) over HIPS. Its a more robust material that allows for greater detail. The only reason I like buying plastic minis is because I can get more for the same cost.
In my experience PVC is the cheap material that generally holds less than perfect detail, resin holding excellent detail, and HIPS coming in between closer to resin.
Piston Honda wrote: EDIT: and the WoK minis do not have HIPS bits they are ABS aka lego plastic.
Thanks for the clarification - it's been a long time since I looked at WOK. I just remember the KS saying they'd be PVC with styrene weapons. ABS is actually a better material for weapons than HIPS, so kudos for that call.
I just want more Wrath of Kings, regardless of the material.
I get Arcadia Quest being the next in the que due to how popular it is, but I'd love to see the Wrath of Kings stuff start to see new releases as well.
Thanks for the discussion, all! (Re)learning a lot of stuff here!
fwiw, Another possible reason that Wrath of Kings isn't as popular may be that CMON realizes that the KS money's in boardgames with miniatures, not miniatures gaming. If you're gonna pay the employees, might as well make a better profit. Their last five KS projects were boardgames with miniatures. That doesn't mean CMON has entirely abandoned other sorts of games and miniatures -- The Grizzled is a coop Euro-ish card game that has been released directly through retail. (Pretty nicely received by BGG and under $17!)
You see this in a fair number of gaming and other industries. A company has limited resources so eventually drops a good but low-profit product for a higher-profit line. Games Workshop, of course, did this with their boardgames way back in the 1980's in favor for hobby miniatures. Thankfully, FFG has licensed and released new editions of many of these games.
I'm both surprised and impressed CMON hasn't taken any of its various properties and done an actual old fashioned dungeon crawl. While a lot of the typical components and mechanics of dungeon crawl boardgames have shown up across a lot of their own releases, there hasn't been anything akin to the older Quest type games that other Kickstarters are constantly trying to bring back.
Seems to me that's some easy money right there. It's also not like CMON are adverse to digging in to ground that other companies have covered fairly well over the years- I'm thinking mainly of their older games, like Rivet Wars, Kaosball, and Sedition Wars, but they seem to be moving off in their own direction as of late, which I see as a good thing.
Still, I wouldn't complain about CMON doing a proper exploration based dungeon crawler with piles of minis. Maybe they need to take Wrath of Kings that route. I certainly wouldn't complain!
I get Arcadia Quest being the next in the que due to how popular it is, but I'd love to see the Wrath of Kings stuff start to see new releases as well.
You will start seeing new WoK releases rolled out as normal retail releases in 2016.
Still, I wouldn't complain about CMON doing a proper exploration based dungeon crawler with piles of minis. Maybe they need to take Wrath of Kings that route. I certainly wouldn't complain!
Sounds like Masmorra - Dungeons of Arcadia might be up your alley.
When you say the Others minis are pushing the boundries, I wonder if you backed Journey : Wrath of Demons?
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Look at mantics games, poor sculpts and very poor art direction but they succeed in the 400 000 mark ( i wouldnt call that a failure at all) but companies with the best miniatures in the industry such as the current Mercie kickstarter is just at 27 thousand british pounds (last i checked) a mere fraction of Mantics kickstarter. Why? because gamers are so focused on the mind set of HIP over everything else that they lose site of great quality miniatures, rules, setting and everything else.
I think you're addressing the symptom and not the problem (or something). Mierce isn't getting the same funding as Mantic because of *VALUE*, not because of a dislike for resin. HIPS is, simply put, orders of magnitude cheaper to produce models in than resin or metal is. I can give Mierc $100 and I'll get 5-10 miniatures total for that contribution... or I could give CMoN or Mantic $100 and get 50-100 miniatures in return. Yes, the quality of the Mierce minis is much better, detail wise, but the CMoN/Mantic stuff looks cool enough to make up for it.
It is a problem for any new company trying to enter the market place, and as much as some people believe metal isn't that expensive, heck I could produce a pack of 10 guys sell them for25 bucks and however not make too much profit I could still go that way ( PP does this but saves costs by cutting down how many different poses are in the packs usually or keeps a good number of poses but keep high prices for each box).
The problem is "Value" is all subjective and individual, I view more value in having a few really great sculpted and incredible detailed miniatures over having 20 fairly poor detail and art directed miniatures for a big spam game. It is cheaper to produce AFTER you have paid the multi thousand dollar fee for setting up the molds ( again around 5 to 20 thousand dollars not including currency conversion). This is an insane level of cost for miniatures that you are not even sure your going to sell. So companies like mantic that do this quickly become reliant on kickstarter ( who can blame them however , kickstarter is a fantastic deal and a very smart thing to do). I would argue against that value, CMoN's game last I checked was 30 bucks average for 3 - 5 minis not $100 bucks for 50 - 100 of them, only mantic Is around that area and I would rather collect high quality miniatures over large scale minis made to be stand ins for other games.
Alpharius wrote: Wrath of Kings isn't in HIPs, and we were talking about PVC/"Boardgame Plastic" in terms of 'pushing the boundaries', and KD: M is, of course, in HIPs.
Last I checked I am fairly sure Wrath of Kings was done in HIP, it cannot be restic , resin or PVC??. However yes PVC has been really progressing in detail holding, FF's starwars game was a great example to me how far the material has come and even Reapers minis have not suffered as large a loss in detail as many were fearing it would which is quite impressive.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Glad to hear the new WoK stuff is going straight to retail (although I wouldn't be adverse to another Ancient King pledge package on KS again).
Any word on how Masmorra will be released? Before/ after/ as part of the Inferno Kickstarter?
You and me both. Ancient King was an absurd value.
ced1106 wrote: Thanks for the discussion, all! (Re)learning a lot of stuff here!
fwiw, Another possible reason that Wrath of Kings isn't as popular may be that CMON realizes that the KS money's in boardgames with miniatures, not miniatures gaming. If you're gonna pay the employees, might as well make a better profit. Their last five KS projects were boardgames with miniatures. That doesn't mean CMON has entirely abandoned other sorts of games and miniatures -- The Grizzled is a coop Euro-ish card game that has been released directly through retail. (Pretty nicely received by BGG and under $17!)
You see this in a fair number of gaming and other industries. A company has limited resources so eventually drops a good but low-profit product for a higher-profit line. Games Workshop, of course, did this with their boardgames way back in the 1980's in favor for hobby miniatures. Thankfully, FFG has licensed and released new editions of many of these games.
Wargames are generally a big investment. Time and money. Assemble the minis, read the rules, need terrain (if you don't already), paint the minis and in most cases long term entertainment you add to that game.
Board games are no where as big as investment (generally) and most people don't commit the time into painting (some do most don't). Read the rules, play the game and store it on the shelf. You see people will buy dozens or hundreds of board games but generally keep wargames to 1 or a couple of games. There is a lot more money in board games because of that.
So when companies like mine look at the market we see that if we ever want to get anywhere even if we produce the best quality sculpted minis, gamers will never support us as well as the HIP companies or even at all if we produce in metal and or resin.
They will if you can make a competitive value proposition. Problem is, value is more measurable as a function of quantity than it is as a function quality. Most gamers want a good middle ground between the two, but generally speaking the preference leans towards quantity moreso than it does quality. Gamers are hoarders and collectors, not hobbyists and artists.
Table top miniature gaming has become a market highly focused HIP only with a few exception companies like PP , Infinity ect. Their is much more of a market in miniature board gaming , a much better likely hood of being supported on kickstarter to help get your first few games out to start your company. You can produce in PVC which is yes a far less quality material than all the other options out their, but is by far way more affordable than HIP will ever be. With this being the case, we can produce a succesful game and full product in an industry that is far bigger and more welcoming of new companies. So hence this is why miniature board gaming is growing and each kickstarter outreaching the average miniature ones.
You'll notice that the games/companies you listed, PP and Infinity, are skirmish scale games that don't require a lot of minis. Thus the value proposition shifts in favor of non HIPS models, since I dont *need* hundreds of models, only 10-20. Also keep in mind, Battlefront, despite introducing HIPs minis, is and was dominated by metals and resin minis.
If you yourself dosent like this, then begin supporting more miniature tabletop games, expsecially ones produced in metal and resin because the numbers dont lie if you want to get into the gaming industry right now, miniature board gaming is the right path to go on for new starting companies and older ones alike. Gamers are voting with their wallets and more and more companies will be going over to miniature board gaming.
Again I think you're confusing things. The reason board games are more successful is because they are more accessible to wider audiences. Playing a 'true' tabletop wargame is expensive, it comes with the expectation that you build and paint expensive models, as well as building and painting a table to play on. Board games come prebuilt (and sometimes painted), and require no extra work. On top of that, everything I need is included in a single box, which also doubles as storage for it all (at least theoretically). I open the package and I'm ready to play. When I'm done, it packs back into the box it came in and goes on the shelf. On top of that, because they are being produced in cheaply mass-produced materials(contrary to your statement about PVC, HIPS is actually cheaper in the long run, PVC is only preferable because it has a lower initial production cost for mold tooling), I get more stuff for my dollar. No it might not be as detailed or as finely made as your product is, but it doesn't *need* to be. Its a gaming piece, not a work of art. Making expensive high quality models doesn't work if I need to purchase dozens of them to play a game.
Wrath of Kings is still struggeling to get a foot hold and their product is produced in HIP
Its not HIPS. Its also pretty popular, at least here in the North Jersey/NYC area. If they're struggling for market share its because they are operating in a very crowded niche of an already crowded niche market area, coupled with the fact that its a relatively new product line with not a lot of stuff to buy. I've invested about $120 and I already own more than I can use in the largest sized game possible (for my faction).
Dark Age is having a very hard time gaining traction in the market even with brand new stunning sculpts.
The models are nice, I own some, but the game is (in my opinion) kinda meh, not very easy to follow the rules, etc.
Gamers seem to want cheap HIP "toys" with poor sculpting and detail over high quality miniatures, so since HIP is not affordable even kickstarted the better path is to go with Miniature board gaming.
You sound really bitter.
( Also to note, their are many very interesting styles of games you can do in the miniature board gaming market that you just could never do in the tabletop area, many gamers want only a few set styles of games were board gamers are much more open too new and interesting ideas, sorry if this offends anyone but this is what i have seen time and time again.)
Still sounding bitter.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As an aside, I, personally (and most others I know) actually prefer working with resin/pvc (similar to Hawk/DZC, as well as wrath of kings or forgeworld) over HIPS. Its a more robust material that allows for greater detail. The only reason I like buying plastic minis is because I can get more for the same cost.
1. such as we have seen with the Icuras kickstarter, its better then if that is the case to move away from the tabletop miniature gaming market and go towards the miniature board gaming market as asking most companies to do HIP bag of minis style approach is just plain unrealistic without the knowledge , massive fanbase , just as GW started out with metal miniatures you need to have a large number of customers before any company should ever consider moving to such plastics.
2. Skirmish scale games are the way to go with 28mm miniatures, larger scale games as I have always said should be done at smaller scales, large scale games simply do not work at 28mm except for a few very rare games like the 28mm version of DBA. The problem is right now that their are just too many skirmish games and the market has become saturated and very hard to enter. it should have never been the case to need 100's of 28mm scaled miniatures in the first place to be honest. However sadly it is what many gamers want to play and many miss out on how much better smaller scale focused games in 28mm tend to be.
3.I don't feel I was confusing things, the board gaming market is a much larger audience, easy to set up a game and play it within a short reasonable time, comes with everything you need in one box and requires none or very little assembly. The overall gaming market is moving or already has moved over too quicker games that gamers can play several games of in one night over the 2 - 3 hour games that were around more often a few years ago. again HIP has an insane cost to initial investment so it is no real surprise everyone goes with PVC, we know certainly we will be doing so as well. the quality of PVC far as we have seen in the last years has been steadily increasing , Zombicide and now the 7 sins miniatures have pretty astounding quality that wasn't in PVC a few years ago.
All in all this isn't why more of us will be going over to board games except for the first part of the paragraph above, their are so many things you can do within a board game that the market will except that you just plain cannot do in a tabletop game market.
4.This as in another pose is quite a shock, I was fairly sure they were HIP!, however they are struggling as you have said its a small market, and very hard to break into, hence another reason those who I have met with are looking to start out first as miniature board gaming companies because the market is just plainly better in terms of breaking in.
5. hmm, I have found the rules to be fairly easy too follow , what turned me off to be honest is a bit of the setting itself , its a rather odd combo that just plainly is not appealing to me.
6. it may sound bitter , but it is more the truth than anything else, HIP is not affordable and that is why you see very few companies ever risk their investment in it , however the market has a lot of gamers who want nothing but HIP.
I am sorry if I came off rude, but when you have many gamers constantly poring their money into a kickstarter or new game as soon as it is announced to be HIP and were companies that I feel really deserve the attention and starting funds to succeed, that get no attention and make less than 10% of said HIP companies. It tends to show a fairly un approachable state tabletop gaming is currently, no bitterness just plain honesty better to move towards a market that is more realistic of breaking into than one were its highly unlikely to start in.
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DaveC wrote: Wrath of Kings miniatures are PVC with ABS weapons and some other small details. There is no HIPS in the Wrath of Kings minis
Thank you for informing me, I had several far too many people inform me that it was in HIP , so this is a rather shocking news to learn, and several of them were kickstarter backers from all over the world which is rather concerning that they mixed up the materials they were casted in!.
When you say the Others minis are pushing the boundries, I wonder if you backed Journey : Wrath of Demons?
Kingdom Death called, they would like to have a talk with you regarding the quality of their minis vis-a-vis Journey.
I own both KD:M and J:WoD, and you are making a preassembled PVC apples to DIY HIPS oranges comparison there. Apples to apples, you would have to compare the initial PVC KD:M items with J:WoD, and you would be hard pressed to claim it superior to Journey.
The real revelation is how KD:M hard plastic surpasses cold cast resin in many ways.
How did that go, and what did you keep vs sell? Is your ex-GW money feeding board games like the Others?
Right now I'm down to a few books which I'm trying to sell off, a large Daemons army that Im debating selling, and odds and ends from Tau/Eldar that I'm not sure what to do with, as well as a large Ogre Kingdoms force which I intend to keep as a modeling project. The value of the stuff I've sold has rather notably depreciated, moreso than usual (used to be able to get about 50-60% retail for used stuff, now im getting 25-40% if I'm lucky), I believe this reduction in value is a result of a combination of general disinterest in the game, especially when it comes to models/armies that aren't currently 'top-tier', and the increasing prevalence of chinese recasts as well.
The money is most definitely being used for products from other companies, especially board games (I've picked up zombicide, backed the others, late pledged black plague, trying to late pledge Lobotomy, bought someone elses Kingdom Death pledge), but I've also been buying more Infinity, Warmahordes, and Malifaux stuff recently, as well as Wrath of Kings, X-Wing, Armada, and Halo Fleet Battles.
That's too bad the bottom is falling out, so I guess I could try to sell off some of my Eldar odds & ends if I'd at least get my money back. If it's largely worthless, I guess it'll sit.
So when companies like mine look at the market we see that if we ever want to get anywhere even if we produce the best quality sculpted minis, gamers will never support us as well as the HIP companies or even at all if we produce in metal and or resin.
Table top miniature gaming has become a market highly focused HIP only with a few exception companies like PP , Infinity ect. Their is much more of a market in miniature board gaming , a much better likely hood of being supported on kickstarter to help get your first few games out to start your company. You can produce in PVC which is yes a far less quality material than all the other options out their, but is by far way more affordable than HIP will ever be.
Wrath of Kings is still struggeling to get a foot hold and their product is produced in HIP, Dark Age is having a very hard time gaining traction in the market even with brand new stunning sculpts. Gamers seem to want cheap HIP "toys" with poor sculpting and detail over high quality miniatures, so since HIP is not affordable even kickstarted the better path is to go with Miniature board gaming.
I'm pretty sure you have no freakin' clue what you're talking about if you're making fundamental mistakes over labeling ("HIP") and materials (WoK).
HIPS = High Impact PolyStyrene - the Styrene is the important bit, because that's the part which requires the hard molds with zero undercuts and a 1.5-degree parting angle. Not specifying the plastic could just as easily reference PolyUrethane or PolyVinyl, which have very different characteristics. HIPS is what
CMoN is pretty much exclusively PVC, the material which dominates Kickstarter games miniatures (by dollar volume). CMoN's Wrath of Kings is primarily PVC with some HIPS weapons bits glued on. The PVC dominates the WOK production effort, not the weapon bitz.
I have a high degree of understanding what I am talking about, however when I have been told by more than a few people from all over the world about wrath of kings being HIP it comes rather shocking to hear that this is not the case, my apologies their , I certainly hope those kickstarter backers were not too shocked when they got their miniatures then however!
I know how PVC and HIP work , I was informed by a large amount of individuals that it was HIP and their for, I was under the false pretence that it was HIP.
However on knowing this, having seen the painted versions of them online I have grown even more impressed with PVC and even more convinced that PVC is going to continue strongly and could very well even out do HIP here eventually if their quality keeps on climbing as it has.
In order for PVC to take over HIPS in the hobby aspect of tabletop gaming they will have to come mold line free.
Detail is not a huge issue, definitely improved and not as crisp as the Kingdom Death HIPS (those minis are like resin!) but working with pvc still sucks.
I know a lot of anime figures in the early years had issues with pvc detail until several years back. There are some pvc garage kit models, wonder how that works? do they use a machine or pour it like metal?
highlord tamburlaine wrote: I'm both surprised and impressed CMON hasn't taken any of its various properties and done an actual old fashioned dungeon crawl. While a lot of the typical components and mechanics of dungeon crawl boardgames have shown up across a lot of their own releases, there hasn't been anything akin to the older Quest type games that other Kickstarters are constantly trying to bring back.
Wasn't Arcadia Quest some sort of dungeon crawl? Of course, by BGG standards, *any* generic fantasy game that has grids or areas and doesn't take place inside is a dungeoncrawl.
Speaking of taking various property, I think it's too bad that CMON doesn't "cross pollinate" its spam miniatures (love the term!) from one of its game systems to another. You could, for example, take the Z:BP Necromancers and Zombies or Blood Rage Vikings and make a WoK army. Or have stats for the Vikings as heroes in Z:BP.
Erebus, you are obviously not as good as you think you are. Ppl vote with there wallets and arent voting for you, try harder instead of standing on a soap box and telling everyone what we want. Try a KS and see how well you do, im sure you will do fine..... Oh and stop ripping on Mantic you really sound bitter.
When you have so many tabletop gamers wanting nothing but HIP
So when companies like mine look at the market we see that if we ever want to get anywhere even if we produce the best quality sculpted minis, gamers will never support us as well as the HIP companies or even at all if we produce in metal and or resin.
Table top miniature gaming has become a market highly focused HIP only with a few exception companies like PP , Infinity ect. Their is much more of a market in miniature board gaming , a much better likely hood of being supported on kickstarter to help get your first few games out to start your company. You can produce in PVC which is yes a far less quality material than all the other options out their, but is by far way more affordable than HIP will ever be.
Wrath of Kings is still struggeling to get a foot hold and their product is produced in HIP, Dark Age is having a very hard time gaining traction in the market even with brand new stunning sculpts. Gamers seem to want cheap HIP "toys" with poor sculpting and detail over high quality miniatures, so since HIP is not affordable even kickstarted the better path is to go with Miniature board gaming.
I'm pretty sure you have no freakin' clue what you're talking about if you're making fundamental mistakes over labeling ("HIP") and materials (WoK).
HIPS = High Impact PolyStyrene - the Styrene is the important bit, because that's the part which requires the hard molds with zero undercuts and a 1.5-degree parting angle. Not specifying the plastic could just as easily reference PolyUrethane or PolyVinyl, which have very different characteristics. HIPS is what
CMoN is pretty much exclusively PVC, the material which dominates Kickstarter games miniatures (by dollar volume). CMoN's Wrath of Kings is primarily PVC with some HIPS weapons bits glued on. The PVC dominates the WOK production effort, not the weapon bitz.
I have a high degree of understanding what I am talking about, however when I have been told by more than a few people from all over the world about wrath of kings being HIP it comes rather shocking to hear that this is not the case, my apologies their , I certainly hope those kickstarter backers were not too shocked when they got their miniatures then however!
I know how PVC and HIP work , I was informed by a large amount of individuals that it was HIP and their for, I was under the false pretence that it was HIP.
However on knowing this, having seen the painted versions of them online I have grown even more impressed with PVC and even more convinced that PVC is going to continue strongly and could very well even out do HIP here eventually if their quality keeps on climbing as it has.
The fact that you can't even do people the courtesy of snipping a huge quote that doesn't concern you in the slightest suggests that your self-certification of understanding is less than what a layperson might consider adequate.
And you continue to write "HIP" where the correct nomenclature would be "HIPS", as I corrected you earlier. Are you really so ignorant that you don't understand the significance of styrene vs urethane vs vinyl? And are you really so obstinate that you refuse to use the correct notation?
Finally, it's news to you that people are getting smart about sculpting and painting PVC to a higher standard than what we've seen previously? Really?
When you have so many tabletop gamers wanting nothing but HIP
So when companies like mine look at the market we see that if we ever want to get anywhere even if we produce the best quality sculpted minis, gamers will never support us as well as the HIP companies or even at all if we produce in metal and or resin.
Table top miniature gaming has become a market highly focused HIP only with a few exception companies like PP , Infinity ect. Their is much more of a market in miniature board gaming , a much better likely hood of being supported on kickstarter to help get your first few games out to start your company. You can produce in PVC which is yes a far less quality material than all the other options out their, but is by far way more affordable than HIP will ever be.
Wrath of Kings is still struggeling to get a foot hold and their product is produced in HIP, Dark Age is having a very hard time gaining traction in the market even with brand new stunning sculpts. Gamers seem to want cheap HIP "toys" with poor sculpting and detail over high quality miniatures, so since HIP is not affordable even kickstarted the better path is to go with Miniature board gaming.
I'm pretty sure you have no freakin' clue what you're talking about if you're making fundamental mistakes over labeling ("HIP") and materials (WoK).
HIPS = High Impact PolyStyrene - the Styrene is the important bit, because that's the part which requires the hard molds with zero undercuts and a 1.5-degree parting angle. Not specifying the plastic could just as easily reference PolyUrethane or PolyVinyl, which have very different characteristics. HIPS is what
CMoN is pretty much exclusively PVC, the material which dominates Kickstarter games miniatures (by dollar volume). CMoN's Wrath of Kings is primarily PVC with some HIPS weapons bits glued on. The PVC dominates the WOK production effort, not the weapon bitz.
I have a high degree of understanding what I am talking about, however when I have been told by more than a few people from all over the world about wrath of kings being HIP it comes rather shocking to hear that this is not the case, my apologies their , I certainly hope those kickstarter backers were not too shocked when they got their miniatures then however!
I know how PVC and HIP work , I was informed by a large amount of individuals that it was HIP and their for, I was under the false pretence that it was HIP.
However on knowing this, having seen the painted versions of them online I have grown even more impressed with PVC and even more convinced that PVC is going to continue strongly and could very well even out do HIP here eventually if their quality keeps on climbing as it has.
The fact that you can't even do people the courtesy of snipping a huge quote that doesn't concern you in the slightest suggests that your self-certification of understanding is less than what a layperson might consider adequate.
And you continue to write "HIP" where the correct nomenclature would be "HIPS", as I corrected you earlier. Are you really so ignorant that you don't understand the significance of styrene vs urethane vs vinyl? And are you really so obstinate that you refuse to use the correct notation?
Finally, it's news to you that people are getting smart about sculpting and painting PVC to a higher standard than what we've seen previously? Really?
I see no need to further discuss things here with someone like yourself, a poor attitude towards others is rather a very immature way to discuss any topic.
I will let the thread get back too what it should be talking about which is the game and its kickstarter,.
Nice thing about board games is that you don't need to worry too much about community buy in. As long as you can rope another player in, the game is solid.
I'm fearful I'll need an automated player option as I'm afraid nobody will want to play as the heroes, and everyone will want to use the Sins.
Sorry for the resurrection of this topic, thought it would have moved to the board games thread by now . Anyways they have extended the pledgemanager close date till Feb 1st. of 2016, giving you an extra 2weeks.
I've decided to hold off completely, was only in for $1, as the villians great models just didn't compensate for the heroes terrible models. Just my opinion, but that's all that mattered to me.
Never was a Cthulhu fan, even if I decide to do a night stalkers army I think I'll go the Bones route. I was thinking of jumping on someone else's pledge just to get the $10 tentacles pledge, but j think I can survive.
If it's anything like Arcadia Quest, they'll eventually sell packs of the tentacle tokens at retail anyway! Also, they're probably smaller than you're thinking, a little over 1cm judging by the heart tokens.
I actually really like the concept of the game! Although (despite Adrian Smith's excellent art) I don't feel that its visual style is as interesting as it could be - there's too much reliance on tits & tentacles, and the heroes are too much of a grab bag.
This just about works when the theme of the game is extremely silly, like Zombicide or Arcadia Quest, but here... It's like playing Arkham Horror, except that instead of PIs, Researchers and Priests you're a Midget Stripper, Sentient Gorilla and One of Those Blue Things from Avatar.
My hope is that the design from Lang can minimise the bloat inherent to these sorts of games, as I feel the ability to repeatedly play missions and actually progress through the campaigns makes or breaks this.
I know all the 'normal' stuff is, I just wasn't sure about the chibis as the plastic doesn't seem quite the same (although I suppose they tweek it for all their stuff)
Salute 2016 is just over a week away, and Studio McVey will be there with resin castings of some of the large monsters from The Others.
So far we have taken delivery of resins of the Avatars for all 7 sins – Pride, Lust, Greed, Gluttony, Wrath, Envy and last but not least – Sloth. These are resin collectors pieces, moulded directly from the original sculpts. They are going to be available in very limited quantities. Once they are gone – we won’t be casting any more.
In case you were not aware, these are pieces from The Others Board we launched on Kickstarter last year. They are all very large pieces (Pride is enormous!), and have been cast beautifully by the same facility that makes out Limited Edition Resin range.
I’ll be posting again here before the show, to update on any other pieces we’ll be selling.
fyi, If you missed the KS, MassDrop has the base game and expansion bundle for $150 + $10 shipping. Doesn't look like it has the exclusives, although it adds a dice set.
"Posted by CoolMiniOrNot (Creator)
Hello Sinners!
As many of you may have heard, Hanjin Shipping Co. has declared bankruptcy. As one of the world's top ten largest container lines, this news has justifiably caused a lot of anxiety around the globe. You can read more about it in news articles such as this.
Like other companies, we do not have much information about the possible delays for the Hanjin vessel where our EU container of The Others is booked on. We are in contact with our freight forwarders, and as soon as we have more information we will post another update.
Rest assured, we are committed to getting The Others into your hands, and if it turns out we have to send another container, we will. Like the port strikes in the USA last year that delayed some of our shipments, this is something that is out of our hands. But you can be sure we will do all we can to get your pledges to you as soon as possible. Thank you for your patience and understanding.
Have FAITH!"
I feel a bit bad about roping you into this one, rest assured that when things eventually start moving I will let you know.
No worries i'm sure it will arrive eventually (especially as CMON is already saying that if nessesary they'll get more stuff shipped from the factory)
but I don't envy them the grief they get from being able to ship 1/2 of the EU orders from the ship that isn't from the bankrupt S Korean company, and leaving the rest of the backers with nothing for many more months
I saw that email. I think no more of a couple of weeks before that I got my KS stuff (had to ship it to relatives since I was moving, just got it the other day).
The minis look pretty good, I like the plastic quality. Punch out pieces are solid (at least FFG thickness) and I managed to get the core set, both extra teams, and the other 5 sin expansions into the core box. Looking forward to roping my wife/friends into playing.
and are exclusives. Probably going for base game, 
do they use a machine or pour it like metal?
. Anyways they have extended the pledgemanager close date till Feb 1st. of 2016, giving you an extra 2weeks.
