The much bigger nerf is that being inside a ruin won't block LOS any more the way it does under the ITC rules that everybody has adopted; instead, you need to be fully behind the ruin. This is massive nerf to melee infantry, unless everyone agrees it's stupid so we'll just pretend that being "inside" the ruin only means physically on the ruin's walls, and that if you're standing in the ruin behind one of the walls, you're actually behind the ruin, not inside it.
The more we see these rules, the more they seem stacked against melee.
Looks like the new character targeting rules kill mono-quin Death Jesters stone dead? Unless we waste another unit to babysit it, the enemy can freely target the DJ. I used to enjoy having my Solitaire sneak around too, looking for the perfect moment to strike, but looks like will be a *lot* trickier now.
I'm not a harlequins player (yet), but I am really sad that you won't be able to play a solitaire with the suit of hidden knives and a -4 to hit modifier....its only a gimmick I guess, but such a cool one! Well, was....
Harlequins are so totally boned by the 9th edition rules we've seen so far that I have to think they're going to get some ability to ignore them, the same way they ignore a lot of other rules of the game.
For example, holosuits could not only give you a 4++ but also prevent you from being targeted unless you really are the closest target, restoring the old character targeting rule just for quins.
Twilight Pathways wrote: Looks like the new character targeting rules kill mono-quin Death Jesters stone dead? Unless we waste another unit to babysit it, the enemy can freely target the DJ. I used to enjoy having my Solitaire sneak around too, looking for the perfect moment to strike, but looks like will be a *lot* trickier now.
Its the big concerns for many mini stand alone heroes.
I’ve been holding off commenting about the 9th edition leaks because we don’t have the full picture yet, but The new Look Out Sir rule seems to be an obvious nerf to Harlequins, particularly Solitaires and DJ’s (and to a lesser extent character hunting TMs) who now need babysitters and can no longer work independently as scalpel units. With points cost going up and Harlies being already arguably overcosted (except for DJs) having to take units just to screen characters now feels like a kick in the teeth. On a related note, this makes the Yncarne all but unplayable in his current configuration. My enthusiasm for 9th has definitely waned a bit barring somethings we haven’t seen yet that mitigates this.
Well, the new rules of the 9th ed will give Harlie Troupes a harder time.
Its good news that overwatch can no longer be given mandatory.
But the ordering of ''who hits first in cc'' will change so that the defender will hit first.
This will give Harlie troupes a hard time. Want to try to charge an Intercessor squad?
wuestenfux wrote: Well, the new rules of the 9th ed will give Harlie Troupes a harder time.
Its good news that overwatch can no longer be given mandatory.
But the ordering of ''who hits first in cc'' will change so that the defender will hit first.
This will give Harlie troupes a hard time. Want to try to charge an Intercessor squad?
That only applies to post-charge fights when two units are still stuck in. Charging squads still fight first.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, the new rules of the 9th ed will give Harlie Troupes a harder time.
Its good news that overwatch can no longer be given mandatory.
But the ordering of ''who hits first in cc'' will change so that the defender will hit first.
This will give Harlie troupes a hard time. Want to try to charge an Intercessor squad?
That only applies to post-charge fights when two units are still stuck in. Charging squads still fight first.
Honestly with the ability to only have one unit fire overwatch, the changes to terrain, and the smaller board size, I think we may be better off in the new edition than we were in 8th.
Honestly I wasn't expecting all of our random shot weapons to get the "blast" special rule (dispersed cannon sure, but not focused and the haywire gun)
Well, Voidweavers seem to get a boost by the new blast rule,
since their main cannons (haywire, prisma) are now blast.
Not a bad move since I've recently painted up three Voidweavers.
Looks like our points didn't change too much. Player with a fusion pistol is 19 points.
Gotta throw a list together tomorrow and see what's what. I normally max out hq options with three each, so it'll be a balancing act to try and keep the new command points I just got since we lost the supreme command detachment.
Am I reading the FAQ rght that the Solitaires Blitz no longer works with the Flip Belt because it's not a Normal Move it's a Blitz Move? Those other pivotal roles seem more attractive now.
Yes, that is sadly what the FAQ says. I do not think they thought of that, sadly, even though the two new entries are right next to one another. So, for now, no Blitzing through terrain or models.
Anybody moved a bit further into list building?
Skyweavers and Troupes got more expensive but overall it appears that other factions got nerfed a bit more than Harlies.
wuestenfux wrote: Anybody moved a bit further into list building?
Skyweavers and Troupes got more expensive but overall it appears that other factions got nerfed a bit more than Harlies.
Troupes didn't go up as much as you might think b.c some of their weapons went down, over all my 90pt units are now 95pts or 100pts, so 10pts more, over 3-4 units thats 30. Yes Skyweavers went up, but only to what they were 1.6yrs ago and its not that big of a difference. I'm still taking 12 skyweavers. What really changed for me is instead of 6 troupes and 3 DJ's, i now have 5 troupes and 2 DJ's. I really only went down a couple cheap units, over all its 170pts more than what i was playing (or close to that).
I really wouldn't go for full 6 skyweavers - 5 don't loose much punch and you don't help those enemy smasha gun/ Plasma cannons etc. getting more shots...
wuestenfux wrote: With 6 character models and the new character rules, it gets harder to keep them safe.
Any plans?
In particular, what do you do with Death Jesters? Given that they're basically lone snipers, they seem royally screwed by the new character rules (mOsT pLaYtEsTeD eDiTiOn EvEr).
Death Jesters probably try to stay in the cars and take pot shots. The relic weapons they can get are pretty nasty and there are a couple ways to bump up the amount of hits they can get with them, so they are pretty nasty.
Even if you dont take those weapons (such as in the list above) being able to make sure an overwatch doesnt happen and the ability to choose the first model to flee from morale can be brutal. Definitely keeping a couple in my lists for those reasons.
Here's what I'm looking at running for Harlequins (and pals) in 9th to start:
Spoiler:
Harlequin Battalion (Masque of the Silent Shroud)
HQ: Spiritseer 115 (Twilight Pathways, Webway Dance) (Warlord Trait: One Foot in the Future)
HQ: Troupe Master 65 with Fusion Pistol 5 and Power Sword 5 (Relic: The Storied Sword)
HQ: Spiritseer 115 (Shards of Light, Fog of Dreams) (Pivotal Role: Veil of Illusion)
Fast: Skyweavers x5 175 with 4x Zephyrglaives 20 and 5x Haywire Cannons 75
Elite: Death Jester 50 (Pivotal Role: Harvester of Torment)
Elite: Death Jester 50
Elite: Solitaire 90 with Kiss and Caress 12 (Relic: The Mask of Secrets)
Heavy: Voidweaver 85 with Prism Cannon 15
Eldar Patrol (Craftworld Alaitoc aka Harlequin Mimes)
HQ: Warlock Skyrunner 65 (Jinx)
Troops: 8x Storm Guardians 72 with 2x fusion 20
Heavy: Dark Reapers x5 with Tempest Launcher 10
Flyer: Hemlock Wraithfighter 230 with Spirit Stones 10 (Terrify)
Foot troupe gets zooped up the middle by the spiritseer, one jester chills by the Voidweaver to keep character protection, other jester pops into the 3x fusion weaver. The Alaitoc detachment is mostly what I have painted up as Harlequin Mimes for some spooky shooty support.
May drop the mask of secrets as I think 1cp is better than another -ld aura, but I still want to get a feel for how useful ld shenanigans in 9th are. My thought currently is "boy, I hope some new rules adjust the numbers on attrition tests" because while morale shenanigans can be a good way to get some wounds on MSU units, it's much worse vs hordes.
I suppose if someone does take 30 ork boyz I can go "Kerblam, nobody expects the 30 haywire shots to the face! You thought it was just for vehicles?"
Well, the inclusion of ''Mimes'' is fluffy.
They appear in the experimental codex of Gav Thorpe.
Or did they appear earlier elsewhere?
In said codex, there is also a Harlie Wraithlord.
wuestenfux wrote: With 6 character models and the new character rules, it gets harder to keep them safe.
Any plans?
In particular, what do you do with Death Jesters? Given that they're basically lone snipers, they seem royally screwed by the new character rules (mOsT pLaYtEsTeD eDiTiOn EvEr).
With Harvestor of Torment and Cecorach's Lament you can kill 10 guardsmen a turn. that's a straight trade and gravy after that.
They are terrible snipers cause they cannot ensure a full dead character a turn.
They will get LoS from the Webway since it's a vehicle that is a 3+ T8 14W 5++ for 95 points of defence mid board.
I put mine in Skyweavers and just add shuriken cannon stat fire.
wuestenfux wrote: With 6 character models and the new character rules, it gets harder to keep them safe.
Any plans?
In particular, what do you do with Death Jesters? Given that they're basically lone snipers, they seem royally screwed by the new character rules (mOsT pLaYtEsTeD eDiTiOn EvEr).
With Harvestor of Torment and Cecorach's Lament you can kill 10 guardsmen a turn. that's a straight trade and gravy after that.
They are terrible snipers cause they cannot ensure a full dead character a turn.
They will get LoS from the Webway since it's a vehicle that is a 3+ T8 14W 5++ for 95 points of defence mid board.
I put mine in Skyweavers and just add shuriken cannon stat fire.
Just to clarify, by "lone sniper" I meant that they'd tend to sit in a ruin or such on their own and fire from their (hence, there would typically not be any friendly units near them).
I didn't mean that they were specifically character assassins.
Think I'm going to start a Harle force. I have a bunch of Eldar from back in my 3rd/4th edition hayday and have been largely playing a different faction on my return.
The Harlequin style and models seem so cool, and their white dwarf update was bonkers.
I think I would do a mixed force (Warlord and majority being Harlequin) with Aeldari allies. Is this thread more focused on mono faction?
I have come up with a couple of (mostly) harlequin lists for an upcoming crusade, and would like some feedback as I'm not sure which one I prefer or might actually work lol. The only prerequisite I had was to try and cram in some fun units... I wanted to throw in an Avatar, but that became problematic at this points level, so I've ended up with a wraithseer in both lists (not in the harlequin detachment, obviously).
Ignore any 'illegal' relics or warlord traits, stuff like that is taken care of by the crusade, its mostly just placeholders in battlescribe I missed.
Edit: A third variant, trading some harlequins for a slightly more robust Craftworlds detachment. (Basically trading a shadowseer and some Players for a Farseer and some dire avengers)
wuestenfux wrote: Haven't seen any Skyweavers in your lists.
Skyweavers are the best units in the Harlie codex.
Fast, deadly and rather durable.
Also expensive, and from what I've seen for 9th they're no longer all that great. Or at least, they're no longer a bargain unit. Even voidweavers are getting higher praise from some sources like the goonhammer guys. Though a lot of this hasn't shaken out in real matches yet.
For the price of those troupes I could get maybe 3x bikes. 6x bikes if I change to an outrider and have no troops at all. Its an option, just not sure if it's a good one.
What, if anything, do Harlies use as their "anchor piece"? That is a heavy but mobile unit like a Wraithlord or a Dreadnaught that holds a position and can still deal out serious damage.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: What, if anything, do Harlies use as their "anchor piece"? That is a heavy but mobile unit like a Wraithlord or a Dreadnaught that holds a position and can still deal out serious damage.
A wraithlord? Or a unit of wraithblades with shields?
Some Talos maybe?
I'm assuming your question was after a 'pure harlequins' choice though... which is trickier. Maybe a big unit of skyweavers or a big Troupe, with some of the stratagem buffs? Believe they can get a 3++ and a -1 to hit (between stratagem and psychic buff), which isn't bad. Better than Wraithguard in many ways, and cheaper, the only issue being they have very bad toughness.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: What, if anything, do Harlies use as their "anchor piece"? That is a heavy but mobile unit like a Wraithlord or a Dreadnaught that holds a position and can still deal out serious damage.
As for allies? Coven, CWE vehicles, etc.. As pure quins just more bikes lol.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: What, if anything, do Harlies use as their "anchor piece"? That is a heavy but mobile unit like a Wraithlord or a Dreadnaught that holds a position and can still deal out serious damage.
As for allies? Coven, CWE vehicles, etc.. As pure quins just more bikes lol.
Seconded.
I'd go for Skyweavers. Cannot have enough of them.
Couple lists I’m looking at. Would love feedback. New to the clowns.
I'd probably drop the player of light (getting too low on CP) but in the Wraithseer list I'd probably give it Mythical role so it gets pseudo expert crafters.
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment CP
Masque Form: The Frozen Stars: Hysterical Fury
+ Stratagems +
Enigmas of the Black Library (1 Relic) [-1CP]
+ HQ +
Shadowseer [7 PL, 115pts, -1CP]: Shards of Light, Shield From Harm, Shuriken Pistol, Stratagem: Pivotal Role, Twilight Pathways, Veil of Illusion
Troupe Master [4 PL, 65pts, -1CP]: Choreographer of War, Harlequin's Blade, Player of the Twilight, Prince of Light, Shuriken Pistol, Stratagem: Pivotal Role, The Twilight Fang, Warlord
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment CP
Masque Form: The Frozen Stars: Hysterical Fury
+ Stratagems +
Enigmas of the Black Library (1 Relic) [-1CP]
+ HQ +
Shadowseer [7 PL, 115pts, -1CP]: Shards of Light, Shield From Harm, Shuriken Pistol, Stratagem: Pivotal Role, Twilight Pathways, Veil of Illusion
Troupe Master [4 PL, 65pts, -1CP]: Choreographer of War, Harlequin's Blade, Player of the Twilight, Prince of Light, Shuriken Pistol, Stratagem: Pivotal Role, The Twilight Fang, Warlord
Niiru wrote:
Seconded.
I'd go for Skyweavers. Cannot have enough of them.
I am not certain you cannot have enough. 6 might be a natural cap to start at least.
tulun wrote:Couple lists I’m looking at. Would love feedback. New to the clowns.
...
Dire avengers
I've been thinking about Asurmen and DAs as well but also some Wave Serpents. Just cause I love Phoenix Lords, WSs are still good durable for objectives (granted we'll natively see more AT I suspect), and DAs. I would recommend just getting going on 1k. Unless you are throwing yourself into tournament and competing for top tier understand what you have and start with that. Figure it out.
But yeah,.. 6 Bikes is a great option to add. They are definitely a core component for a competitive army.
Niiru wrote:
Seconded.
I'd go for Skyweavers. Cannot have enough of them.
I am not certain you cannot have enough. 6 might be a natural cap to start at least.
tulun wrote:Couple lists I’m looking at. Would love feedback. New to the clowns.
...
Dire avengers
I've been thinking about Asurmen and DAs as well but also some Wave Serpents. Just cause I love Phoenix Lords, WSs are still good durable for objectives (granted we'll natively see more AT I suspect), and DAs. I would recommend just getting going on 1k. Unless you are throwing yourself into tournament and competing for top tier understand what you have and start with that. Figure it out.
But yeah,.. 6 Bikes is a great option to add. They are definitely a core component for a competitive army.
Yeah, I'm building / painting some DAs. I think DAs / wave serpents are great objective campers. Asurmen giving them that 4++ is tempting, though, but I wouldn't field him if you're just tossing them in a wave serpent anyway. He costs as much as one. On the ground though, he can chill with a core of them and push a side.
I think Asurmen with 22" Shuriken Catapults actually makes the walking ones interesting. Yeah, they die to small arms fire, but I can easily out range 24" guns (I can move, advance, and shoot), so I will typically get the first volley. If I was still at 18", this strat wouldn't work.
I'll probably give it a try, as I've loved Dire Avengers since 3rd/4th edition (I had a CWE back then). Love the models, they've just always seemed to suck.
On bikes:
The main concern I have is that I can only protect 1 bike unit a round with fire and fade. I suppose I could give the second squad a 3++, but it seems better to not get targeted at all.
If you're trying to be cagey / patient, how easy is it to protect that second (or 3rd) bike squad?
Hey all, as someone who hasn't played since 3e, and who is thinking about getting back into the game with Harlequins, what should I be buying that's decent in the current meta? Skyweavers seem to be in, how should I be equipping/modeling them? Glaives or bolas? Shuriken or Haywire?
3 Boxes of Troupes, 12 Skyweavers, a Death Jester, a Shadowseer, and a Solitaire is the perfect starting points.
Your Troupe boxes actually comes with Troupe Masters, you'll get 3, make sure 1 has a Power sword/Harlequin blade (they look 99% the same, so it doesn't matter) so you can take the Relic sword, the other 2 TM's is w/e you want.
You might want 1-3 Starweavers as well, they are always nice.
No matter what start with 2-3 boxes of Bikes, 1 Troupe box, and a Shadowseer, at least for a 500pt game.
Amishprn86 wrote: 3 Boxes of Troupes, 12 Skyweavers, a Death Jester, a Shadowseer, and a Solitaire is the perfect starting points.
Your Troupe boxes actually comes with Troupe Masters, you'll get 3, make sure 1 has a Power sword/Harlequin blade (they look 99% the same, so it doesn't matter) so you can take the Relic sword, the other 2 TM's is w/e you want.
You might want 1-3 Starweavers as well, they are always nice.
No matter what start with 2-3 boxes of Bikes, 1 Troupe box, and a Shadowseer, at least for a 500pt game.
Aight, people elsewhere are telling me Voidweavers are a suboptimal unit for the current state of the game? And what's the optimal loadout for Skyweavers - Haywire & Glaive?
I was told a Contemptor Dreadnaught with plasma cannons and cyclone missile launcher runs around 170 points. It is T7 with 10 wounds. For about the same thing we would get 3 skyweavers (150-165 points depending on glaives or not). That would net us T4 and 9 wounds. I don't know the math, or even how to figure it out but I'm pretty sure that it would take more than 9 T4 wounds to equal 10 T7 wounds.
My next question would be who would win the fight between the dread and the squad of 3 bikes. I'm pretty sure that the bikes could get the initial volley but I'd love to know what happens in both instances.
My initial impression is that bikes are not the equal to other armies heavy hitters (on a point for point basis).
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I was told a Contemptor Dreadnaught with plasma cannons and cyclone missile launcher runs around 170 points. It is T7 with 10 wounds. For about the same thing we would get 3 skyweavers (150-165 points depending on glaives or not). That would net us T4 and 9 wounds. I don't know the math, or even how to figure it out but I'm pretty sure that it would take more than 9 T4 wounds to equal 10 T7 wounds.
My next question would be who would win the fight between the dread and the squad of 3 bikes. I'm pretty sure that the bikes could get the initial volley but I'd love to know what happens in both instances.
My initial impression is that bikes are not the equal to other armies heavy hitters (on a point for point basis).
Bikes also are -1 to hit and a 4++, that can get a 3++ without hero support, also vs 2 and maybe D6 damage weapons those will actually waste damage as well compare to on the Dread its not. In a 1 to 1 match up the Skyweavers should win on the table with their movement, anti-tank shooting, they can FnF and stay out of some of the damage of the Dread,etc..
But the Contemptor Dreadnaught however doesn't have a plasma, that is the Relic Contemptor Dreadnaught, which costs more and is 12 wounds, the Contemptor Dreadnaught has a 24" 6 shots str 7 1D gun, and a Multi Melta. The Relic Contemptor Dreadnaught can have 2 Plasma weapon and ML for 170pts, so I think you meant Relic Contemptor Dreadnaught. So its 12 wounds vs 9 lol. But i think the Bikes still has the upper hand, 3+ to hit on average of 4 dice shooting you isn't that scary when you also have a 3++ and 2 wounds to kill a bike. I would be worried about 2 Kheres assault cannon's, its 12 shots, so more likely to get wounds through, or 2 Twin autocannons for 8 shots at 2D.
Page 363 – Rare Rules
Add the following sub-section:
SCORING ADDITIONAL HITS
When a model makes an attack, some rules will let that attack
score one or more additional hits on a particular hit roll (e.g.
‘each time an attack is made with this weapon, an unmodified
hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit’). If the attacking model is
also benefiting from any other rules that trigger on a particular
hit roll (e.g. ‘each time an attack is made with this weapon,
an unmodified hit roll of 6 automatically wounds the target’),
then only the original attack benefits from those rules. If any
additional hits are scored as the result of a particular hit roll,
those additional hits are not considered to have been made with
any hit roll – they simply hit the target and you must continue
the attack sequence for them (i.e. make a wound roll).
Nerf to death jesters there then, especially dreaming shadow death jesters and/or jest inescapable jesters.
What is the preferred unit size for Troupes on foot?
I know that, in theory, having a squad of 10 allows for more efficient use of the blur strat for 3++, but it also means its much more likely to end up losing a bunch of models to morale (and blasts).
As Frozen Stars, I haven't yet found a real need for more attacks against most units. Although making a chain to aura buffs is certainly something to keep in mind.
Harlie army was rather straightforward with 5x 5 Troups, 3 transports, 3x 6 Skyweavers, 2 DJs and whatnot.
If you watch closely in the opening of the game, there was one Skyweaver unit to shoot and the two DJs,
while the army advanced towards midfield.
This is a bad construction of army if you ask me as there is almost no supporting fire to whittle down the enemy.
Here a soup list would be much better with Skyweavers having a specific role of approaching along the flanks or moving towards the center for early scoring.
Actually, it was poor play by Adrian. He held two bike units back and lost half the bikes for no real gain.
Amishprn86 wrote: I watch these guys all the time, and i hated this batrep, its one of their worst ones IMO.
But it is a good video to watch to see that castling isn't good and you need to play the objectives now in 9th.
Adrian moved all three Skyweaver units forward.
One in the open for shooting and fire & fade behind ruins and the other two behind ruins.
Obviously it would have been better to keep the two units behind ruins in his deployment zone in T1.
Then he wouldn't have lost half of his bikers.
They had a convo saying he can not see his bikes, thats why he did it (if its the part I am remembering I watch it when it first came out) and the other player "I can see them" he was a good sport and was like "Oh..Oh? you can? ok, its ok go ahead"
So what would the Harlequin response be to the new updates?
Standard 18pt tactical marines (cheaper than a Player) now has 2W and comes with 30" bolter. Chainswords for them are also now AP-1 (thought that, at least, won't affect harlequins much).
Terminators now 3W each. So blightlords are now 3W 2+/5++/5+++.
Deathwing get access to 2+/4++/5+++ with 3w per model.
Tac marines bolter is still 24" they still have a basic bolter at least.
Terminators needed to go up in survivability, 100% for sure and it was a fine change for them.
But as for quins? The worst change is the few popular guns that are not 2D instead of 1D, and another set of popular guns are Str 5 over str 4. This means bikes and vehicles are weaker to those. And some guns are now +1, +2, or even double the shots, this is what will kill us. The combine of these 3 on a army is the killer, not the added wounds.
Over all nothing really changed as far as what we can do, watch for beta strikes, and play the missions.
Amishprn86 wrote: Tac marines bolter is still 24" they still have a basic bolter at least.
Terminators needed to go up in survivability, 100% for sure and it was a fine change for them.
But as for quins? The worst change is the few popular guns that are not 2D instead of 1D, and another set of popular guns are Str 5 over str 4. This means bikes and vehicles are weaker to those. And some guns are now +1, +2, or even double the shots, this is what will kill us. The combine of these 3 on a army is the killer, not the added wounds.
Over all nothing really changed as far as what we can do, watch for beta strikes, and play the missions.
Bolter was changed to 30" wasn't it? Pretty sure that was one of the releases. I may be mistaken.
Well, the battle report Harlies vs. Tallarn is one of the best I've seen in the 9th.
The Harlie player had the right tactics in the game opening,
with Troupes staying inside the transports and shooting their fusion pistols, and
Skyweavers moving forward (one with double movement) to bring down tanks.
Amishprn86 wrote: Tac marines bolter is still 24" they still have a basic bolter at least.
Terminators needed to go up in survivability, 100% for sure and it was a fine change for them.
But as for quins? The worst change is the few popular guns that are not 2D instead of 1D, and another set of popular guns are Str 5 over str 4. This means bikes and vehicles are weaker to those. And some guns are now +1, +2, or even double the shots, this is what will kill us. The combine of these 3 on a army is the killer, not the added wounds.
Over all nothing really changed as far as what we can do, watch for beta strikes, and play the missions.
Bolter was changed to 30" wasn't it? Pretty sure that was one of the releases. I may be mistaken.
I've not seen that anywhere. Intercessors are 30" but they have Bolt Rifles not Bolt guns.
Amishprn86 wrote: Tac marines bolter is still 24" they still have a basic bolter at least.
Terminators needed to go up in survivability, 100% for sure and it was a fine change for them.
But as for quins? The worst change is the few popular guns that are not 2D instead of 1D, and another set of popular guns are Str 5 over str 4. This means bikes and vehicles are weaker to those. And some guns are now +1, +2, or even double the shots, this is what will kill us. The combine of these 3 on a army is the killer, not the added wounds.
Over all nothing really changed as far as what we can do, watch for beta strikes, and play the missions.
Bolter was changed to 30" wasn't it? Pretty sure that was one of the releases. I may be mistaken.
I've not seen that anywhere. Intercessors are 30" but they have Bolt Rifles not Bolt guns.
Check the datasheet for the veterans. 30" boltguns. Could be they're being given a special variant of the boltgun, but the picture appears to be standard.
On another note, do 5-man MSU footslogging troupes work, or do they do better with a bunch of ablative wounds?
Did a quick Google check before writing this post and it yielded no results.
So apologies if this has already been covered in the thread I just haven't got time to go back through 32 pages.
Regarding the Player of Twilight warlord trait.
Is it limited to regaining 1 CP now as per the recent FAQ?
And if you answer this please quote the source page of the rule.
I’ve been toying around with some Harlequin/Eldar lists (aiming for heavier on the Quins) so I thought I might share my first iteration for review here. Lots of fast Harlequins units to take the middle quickly and then a slightly sturdier bit of Eldar tanks and troops to help keep it. Thanks for looking.
I like the look of it overall (at least as a primer to getting used to 9th before trying some more skew-y builds), but I do have a few questions. Is it worth the CP to use Pivotal Role to add Veil of Illusion? I like the sound of it but with boards getting smaller it might not have that much impact in practice. Although it is only one CP so even if it affects only the first turn it might be worth it. That and if 12” flamers become a common sight it might be worth it. Also though about spending another CP on Pivotal Role to add Prince of Light to the Troupe Master to stack with Player of Light for +1 rerollable charges. Or should I switch his WL trait to Player of Twilight for CP regen (albeit max 1 per turn)? Thanks for looking
Pickled_egg wrote: Did a quick Google check before writing this post and it yielded no results.
So apologies if this has already been covered in the thread I just haven't got time to go back through 32 pages.
Regarding the Player of Twilight warlord trait.
Is it limited to regaining 1 CP now as per the recent FAQ?
And if you answer this please quote the source page of the rule.
So I'm thinking of trying out a game of Harlequins on TTS in the near future so I gotta ask: what is the masque of choice these days? I want to go Frozen Stars mainly just because I want my Solitaire to be a DBZ character but I've heard talk of Veiled Path being the way to go. Is that true? Iow-key kind of hate their masque trait (I hate the Tzeentch Daemons one just like it too) so probably not gonna go it even if the case, but figured I'd ask.
I think Frozen Stars if you want real close combat punch or Soaring Spite if you want gun boats and to be able to advance and shoot with no penalties in those boats. Both have a very powerful stratagem and the Soaring Spite Warlord trait is very good.
I do think Midnight Sorrow is often overlooked and underrated. Dreaming Shadow isnt bad because of the chance to shoot again on a 4+ and their unique strat is quite good as well.
Void__Dragon wrote: So I'm thinking of trying out a game of Harlequins on TTS in the near future so I gotta ask: what is the masque of choice these days? I want to go Frozen Stars mainly just because I want my Solitaire to be a DBZ character but I've heard talk of Veiled Path being the way to go. Is that true? Iow-key kind of hate their masque trait (I hate the Tzeentch Daemons one just like it too) so probably not gonna go it even if the case, but figured I'd ask.
As Fusion pistols came down to 5 pts, and are fantastic primaris killers. I think you want to bring as many FP's as you can squeeze in.
With that in mind Soaring Spite is the go to for me, gives you 28" FP threat range for a unit inside a boat.
I'm running 20 FP's in 4 boats, and 3 units of 5 Bikes. So I'm golden if my opponent is bringing vehicles.
If my list has any weaknesses its horde units. So I'm kind of edging the meta.
I think many FP's is also a great answer to Custodes.
I still like Frozen stars but personally, I just have Soaring Spite edging it right now.
Pickled_egg wrote: Did a quick Google check before writing this post and it yielded no results.
So apologies if this has already been covered in the thread I just haven't got time to go back through 32 pages.
Regarding the Player of Twilight warlord trait.
Is it limited to regaining 1 CP now as per the recent FAQ?
And if you answer this please quote the source page of the rule.
thanks
New BRB page 245
thanks
Do we think Player of the Twilight is still worth it?
I personally do. An extra command point every now and then is nice, and the once per game free reroll let's you basically double up on a reroll for saves once per game. (Say if you fail 3 saves against something like thunder hammers, rerolling 2 feels much safer)
Its an absolute must-have in a world of 2W Marines.
This would only be fair.
I disagree, troupes don't need (nor should they get) 2 wounds.
What they -should- get, is kisses with +2S instead of +1S, and Caresses should get an additional buff such as reroll 1's to hit to compensate. Embraces... I'm not sure. But they will all need a buff.
Same with craftworld guardians. They don't need to be 2W. It's not very eldar for them to have hulking wounds. But their shuriken catapults should be 18" range minimum (24" range really, but GW aren't likely to do this), and 6s to wound should be -3AP and 2D.
Eldar will only be competitive in the new meta (in a way that remains fitting for the lore) if their weapons are increased in power significantly.
Otherwise... well it takes 40 guardians to kill a single 2W plague marine.
bullyboy wrote:Quick Q, does the shadowstone also extend to psyhic power actions (like the interrogate one)?
Interesting point. And as far as I can think (I can't check the wording right now) it says it extends the range of auras and psychic powers, so it should work on actions too. Can't see why not.
I'd say that unless psychic actions are defined as powers, they would not be extended by the Shadowstone. There is always the chance that they could FAQ the relic, but as it reads its specific about what it extends: aura abilities and psychic powers manifested by the bearer. There is no mention of actions. I agree that psychic actions are similar to powers, but the section on psychic actions does differentiate between the two.
bmsattler wrote: I'd say that unless psychic actions are defined as powers, they would not be extended by the Shadowstone. There is always the chance that they could FAQ the relic, but as it reads its specific about what it extends: aura abilities and psychic powers manifested by the bearer. There is no mention of actions. I agree that psychic actions are similar to powers, but the section on psychic actions does differentiate between the two.
If the wording for them do differentiate things, then I'd agree they wouldn't be affected. It's always down to the specific wording.
A psychic action has a warp charge value and can be denied, so its basically a psychic power. Definitive answer would be nice. I will have to check out the wording.
bullyboy wrote: A psychic action has a warp charge value and can be denied, so its basically a psychic power. Definitive answer would be nice. I will have to check out the wording.
So this is from the actions page:
A PSYKER unit from your army can attempt to perform a psychic action in its Psychic phase instead of attempting to manifest any psychic powers.
To perform a psychic action with a PSYKER unit, you must first pass a Psychic test in the same manner as if it were attempting to manifest a psychic power.
So it would seem it differentiates between 'psychic power' and 'psychic action'. And the shadowstone specifies psychic power.
However later in the actions description -
The opposing player can then select one of their PSYKER units that is within 24" of the PSYKER unit attempting to perform the psychic action and attempt to deny that action in the same manner as if it were attempting to deny a psychic power, by passing a Deny the Witch test.
Which is... interesting. Because it doesn't say it's a Deny the Witch, it's just -in the same manner of- a Deny. So does that mean it doesn't use up one of your Deny's for that turn?
What are your guy's opinion on kitting your Troupes with FP + CC weapons for 9th?
I hear a lot that you still shouldn't make them too expensive but that seems wrong with the point increase to players and the point decrease to Fusion Pistols and CC weapons.
Gutting Kiss/Caress or Fusions pistols on a unit of 5 would only pay for 1/3 the cost of another unit of 5 Troupes.
I wouldn't do FP+CC weapon on footsloggers but with Troupes in a Starweaver it seems to make sense because you're already paying the tax for the transport.
You want a dedicated role for you units, if you are trying to do something like shoot a tank you'll just out position yourself for melee, or vice versa. If you have a unit that has a dedicated role say FP's anti tank and it is not as viable there are still viable targets like high wound troops, characters, etc.. and if they did everything they can do then just use them to hold objectives. Its better to fit 1 role and use to its fullest than split the roles.
Now with that said, having 1 weapon in a unit to "get them out of trouble" is a different story, you can have 5 FP's with 1 Melee weapon NP, but i would add a FP to a melee unit.
If we presume that power swords are going to be +1str, -3AP dmg 1 for harleauins, how will the other CC wargear change? Kiss doing flat 2 damage? Embraces bumping up to +2 str
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SiLKY wrote: What are your guy's opinion on kitting your Troupes with FP + CC weapons for 9th?
I hear a lot that you still shouldn't make them too expensive but that seems wrong with the point increase to players and the point decrease to Fusion Pistols and CC weapons.
Gutting Kiss/Caress or Fusions pistols on a unit of 5 would only pay for 1/3 the cost of another unit of 5 Troupes.
I wouldn't do FP+CC weapon on footsloggers but with Troupes in a Starweaver it seems to make sense because you're already paying the tax for the transport.
always remember you cannot advance and fire fusion pistols. I personally go all fusion or all cc weapons but rarely both. Fusion pistols could change in 9th though
Elfric wrote: If we presume that power swords are going to be +1str, -3AP dmg 1 for harleauins, how will the other CC wargear change? Kiss doing flat 2 damage? Embraces bumping up to +2 str
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SiLKY wrote: What are your guy's opinion on kitting your Troupes with FP + CC weapons for 9th?
I hear a lot that you still shouldn't make them too expensive but that seems wrong with the point increase to players and the point decrease to Fusion Pistols and CC weapons.
Gutting Kiss/Caress or Fusions pistols on a unit of 5 would only pay for 1/3 the cost of another unit of 5 Troupes.
I wouldn't do FP+CC weapon on footsloggers but with Troupes in a Starweaver it seems to make sense because you're already paying the tax for the transport.
always remember you cannot advance and fire fusion pistols. I personally go all fusion or all cc weapons but rarely both. Fusion pistols could change in 9th though
My reasoning is because I'm playing them in Frozen Stars so I can get a lot of value kitting some of my fusions in my transports with both weapons. The idea is to get in far in first turn and now they have the option to disembark, move, shoot, and charge or can stay in. My alternative is to strip three 5 man units of their weapons and have 5 more troupes with cc weapons without a transport.
As for the power sword change, I don't think it will change too much because Troupe Players cant take power swords. But I would hope the Embraces get a slight change seeing as their so rarely (if ever) better than caresses. Kisses going to Flat 2 would be a nice change though. The idea of your opponent staggering wound rolls isn't very fun.
In other news, our beatstick Twilight Fang Troupe Master got nerfed with the new aura changes. I wonder if it's still worth it. Without that reroll, the combo seems much weaker.
Manage range so you're the one making the charges, rather than letting his boyz bully you.
Put shots into Ghaz to hit his 4 damage as a priority. If you don't start early in the game he'll survive. Either that or decide to ignore him all game, both are viable. He does make boys more killy though, if pure-goffs.
Focus on a squad at a time, to stop Green Tide happening. Super important.
If you get the chance to assassinate their weirdboyz do it, shutting off da jump is crucial.
Don't be afraid to close to CC esp. if you're running frozen stars, they can do the business with 5 caress clowns.
Scarband wrote: Last weekend i was playing versus orcs list with 90 boyz and some mega nobz and ghazkull.
Need advice. What is a best list and tactics againist horde army?
Are you running the full 15 Haywire bikes? The Haywire cannon being S4 -1 Blast is actually fairly decent against big blobs of Ork Boys.
It's a tough match up though, a good Ork player will swarm all over the board and its hard for us to evade them on the smaller table size.
Just have to soften them up and make individual charges to stop them being able to 2 CP and fight next. If they get to fight us the sheer number of attacks will kill anything even our Prismatic blurred bikes under a Foes of the Mind.
grouchoben wrote: Manage range so you're the one making the charges, rather than letting his boyz bully you.
Put shots into Ghaz to hit his 4 damage as a priority. If you don't start early in the game he'll survive. Either that or decide to ignore him all game, both are viable. He does make boys more killy though, if pure-goffs.
Focus on a squad at a time, to stop Green Tide happening. Super important.
If you get the chance to assassinate their weirdboyz do it, shutting off da jump is crucial.
Don't be afraid to close to CC esp. if you're running frozen stars, they can do the business with 5 caress clowns.
He can regenerate full 30 boyz, if any in unit is alive. So best bet is try to destroy one unit. Understood. Yes i playing frozen stars.
Scarband wrote: Last weekend i was playing versus orcs list with 90 boyz and some mega nobz and ghazkull.
Need advice. What is a best list and tactics againist horde army?
Are you running the full 15 Haywire bikes? The Haywire cannon being S4 -1 Blast is actually fairly decent against big blobs of Ork Boys.
It's a tough match up though, a good Ork player will swarm all over the board and its hard for us to evade them on the smaller table size.
Just have to soften them up and make individual charges to stop them being able to 2 CP and fight next. If they get to fight us the sheer number of attacks will kill anything even our Prismatic blurred bikes under a Foes of the Mind.
I play with 2x4 bikes, other is a players, starweavers, shadowseer, solitaire, 2 troup masters and 2 jesters. Trying to build roster, that can deal with many other rosters, not only with one.
‘Each time this unit makes a Normal Move, Advances, Falls
Back or makes a charge move, until that move is finished,
models in this unit can move horizontally through models and
terrain features (they cannot finish a move on top of another
model, or its base).’
So can i finish move on top of the terrain feature (top of bulding for example)?
Second question, what about Yncarne? Is she good on 9ed for including in harlequins army?
Second question, what about Yncarne? Is she good on 9ed for including in harlequins army?
Came here for this same question.
Though this is from a month ago... kinda surprised the Harlequin tactica is so dead, you'd think all the elf players would be in here atm considering we are the only elves that aren't garbage-tier right now.
Second question, what about Yncarne? Is she good on 9ed for including in harlequins army?
Came here for this same question.
Though this is from a month ago... kinda surprised the Harlequin tactica is so dead, you'd think all the elf players would be in here atm considering we are the only elves that aren't garbage-tier right now.
Honestly, its a very small faction of players and its tactics are well known, there is talk about the Yncarne already in here somewhere. Finally many players are not really using forums anymore and instead Discord as its a live discusion, easier to navigate, and not so limiting.
With that said, the Yncarne is really good in Quins.
Second question, what about Yncarne? Is she good on 9ed for including in harlequins army?
Came here for this same question.
Though this is from a month ago... kinda surprised the Harlequin tactica is so dead, you'd think all the elf players would be in here atm considering we are the only elves that aren't garbage-tier right now.
Honestly, its a very small faction of players and its tactics are well known, there is talk about the Yncarne already in here somewhere. Finally many players are not really using forums anymore and instead Discord as its a live discusion, easier to navigate, and not so limiting.
With that said, the Yncarne is really good in Quins.
Good point, and I use discord a lot for various hobbies including 40k. I think I'm even in an aeldari discord haha. Just don't visit it enough. May have to get into the habit
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wow, I hadn't really looked carefully at Twilit (yay spelling) Encore - that is super powerful, because unlike the white scars version you can end your consolidate back within combat range, and you can also use it even if you're still in combat with something else - even if you're based, because it says you can end closer to either the closest model or the unit that's falling back. That's crazily powerful for 1CP. Most units are simply not going to be able to get out of combat with a troupe unit now,
I have a question about twilit pathway. the strat reads that each model must "move closer to the closest model from the unit that Fell Back, or, if another enemy unit is now closer, the closest enemy model." not to sound like a grammer nazi but the ",or," has a comma on either side which creates a break in the sentence. Rules as written wouldn't it read as "either-or?" either the unit that fell back, or, another unit that has now become closest? i.e a model in base contact.
also pg.231 of the core rules book says that a consolidating units must end closer the closest enemy model. i don't understand how this consolidation move is allowed to bypass that core rule. thanks for the help!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wow, I hadn't really looked carefully at Twilit (yay spelling) Encore - that is super powerful, because unlike the white scars version you can end your consolidate back within combat range, and you can also use it even if you're still in combat with something else - even if you're based, because it says you can end closer to either the closest model or the unit that's falling back. That's crazily powerful for 1CP. Most units are simply not going to be able to get out of combat with a troupe unit now,
I have a question about twilit pathway. the strat reads that each model must "move closer to the closest model from the unit that Fell Back, or, if another enemy unit is now closer, the closest enemy model." not to sound like a grammer nazi but the ",or," has a comma on either side which creates a break in the sentence. Rules as written wouldn't it read as "either-or?" either the unit that fell back, or, another unit that has now become closest? i.e a model in base contact.
also pg.231 of the core rules book says that a consolidating units must end closer the closest enemy model. i don't understand how this consolidation move is allowed to bypass that core rule. thanks for the help!
Twilight Pathways is a psychic power that allows a unit to move/advance again in the psychic phase.
Twilit Encore is the stratagem that can be used after an enemy unit within 1" of a Troupe falls back. When that happens, there are two possibilities for the Troupe:
1) If the unit that fell back is still the closest unit to the Troupe, then each model in the Troupe can move up to 6" ending its consolidate closer to the unit falling back than it was when it started its consolidate move.
2) The unit that fell back is NOT the closest unit to the Troupe anymore, in which case, each model in the Troupe can move up to 6" ending its consolidate closer to the unit which is now closest to them when it started its consolidate move.
Remember that special rules allow for the override of core rules.
So, my local club has a few Dark Angels players, who will be playing a lot of Deathwing Terminators coming up. Worried about 3w models, with very good armour saves, and always-on Transhuman. Worried about how to tackle them, as they will be good candidates for while we stand we fight.
Ravenwing Apothecary (115)
UPGRADE: Chief Apothecary
TRAITS: Selfless Healer
STRATAGEMS: Hero of the Chapter
Adeptus Astartes Patrol Detachment ( 2CP - 315PT )
SUB-FACTION: Dark Angels
HQ Primaris Chaplain on Bike (115)
TRAITS: Rites of War (Aura)
LITANIES: Canticle of Hate (Aura)
RELICS: Reliquary of the Repentant
STRATAGEMS: Hero of the Chapter
Hey murder clowns, was considering starting up a little force of these weirdos and was curious what a typical 1k list would look like. I commonly fight Ultras, Space Wolves, Necrons, DG, Tyranids and Sisters of Battle.
I don’t want to go cheese, it’s a friendly group (for the most part), but would like to be able to have fun and close games.
Thanks
EDIT: A cool combat patrol idea would also be nice to get started with, if anyone had any suggestions.
EDIT 2: How would this be for a Combat Patrol:
HQ - Shadowseer w/ Fog of Dreams, Veil of Tears, Shield From Harm
- Troupe Master
TROOPS
- 5x Players w/ 2x fusion pistols, 3x Shurikan, 5x Caras
FAST ATTACK
- 4x Skyweavers w/ 1x Bolas, 3x Zephyrglaives, 4x Haywire Cannons
Not really sure on what relic or warlord trait to take, but I’m thinking of going The Frozen Stars Mask Form.
I could use some advice from the more experienced harlequin players on here. My best friend and I both started new armies. I chose quins and he has a small force of death guard. We are going to play a 1k friendly game and I need some advice on the list, especially on warlord traits and relics as I can't really add different models because the list basically encompasses every model I own for harlequins.
I came up with two lists that basically only differ regarding warlord traits. In the first one my thinking was to make the troupe master more of very fast support character with a foot on the future and prince of light to give reroll charges, to make sure my dudes arrive where they need to. I also thought that the solitaire with rose would be interesting to hunt death guard characters since he at least essentially gets damage 2 against them in melee.
Shadowseer [6 PL, 115pts]: Shield From Harm, Shuriken Pistol, The Shadowstone, Twilight Pathways, Webway Dance
Troupe Master [4 PL, -1CP, 76pts]: 3: A Foot in the Future, Choreographer of War, Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Caress, Prince of Light, Stratagem: Pivotal Role, Warlord
Shadowseer [6 PL, 115pts]: Shield From Harm, Shuriken Pistol, The Shadowstone, Twilight Pathways, Webway Dance
Troupe Master [4 PL, -1CP, 70pts]: 5: Player of the Dark, Choreographer of War, Darkness' Bite, Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Blade, Stratagem: Pivotal Role, The Twilight Fang, Warlord
