It's not that difficult. 3 inches forward for disembarking from a transport before it moves, 12 + 3d6 (10 average) move. Plus Average 7 inch charge range. First turn charge range averages out to 32 inches. If you need more you can Twilight Pathways him potentially too though with the blitz move that's not always easy as he might be too far away. He's not going to kill everything he touches, he's not supposed to be killing Primarchs or Daemon Princes or anything like that, but he can easily handle support characters that your opponent is relying on, farseers/warlocks, haemonculi, SM lieutenants, librarians, ethereals etc.
I think of him as sort of a guided missile psyker hunter, he runs in, kills a character that is usually a little more expensive than he is and maybe consolidates into something else then takes a disproportionate amount of attention from the enemy and dies. Pair him up with a Soaring Spite TM and they are incredibly disruptive, often giving your Drive-bys and Skyweavers an extra turn to work.
If you read the fluff the Solitaire should be invincible and kill everything, which is misleading; if you actually have realistic expectations then he is a reasonably efficient character with a specific job to do.
And how is your Solitaire getting shot first turn before doing anything? He has character protection. Maybe read up some on character positioning and buffering, most decent 40k blogs like Brown Magic or Frontline have articles on it.
mokoshkana wrote: The solitaire is amazing. With the rose he is a character killer. Put him in a transport and he has a move range of 15" plus 3d6 on turn 1 with the use of blitz. Then you get 2d6 to charge, which means you can get into combat with whatever you'd like. His specialty is speed and the ability to wipe out a support character before they can do anything. You TM isn't granting you that on turn 1.
How can you accomplish this? Remember that Solitaire can't disembark from transport on the turn 1 if the transport has moved - so no blitzing on turn 1. It's true that even without transport Solitaire is fast, and depending on deployment can reach enemy units on turn 1. However, in practice this doesn't work out so well. Either you don't get the first turn, in which case Solitaire usually gets shot before doing anything, or you fail both blitz and charge rolls and solitaire still gets shot without accomplishing anything. Sometimes you do get to the enemy units on turn 1, but unless you're facing really squishy characters Solitaire isn't going to take them down, not even with Cegorach's Rose. Spending ~100 pts and a relic slot for this is wasteful.
The solitaire disembarks before the transport moves. If they blow it up before he gets to disembark, you just put the squad in front of him. Also, with the relic, he is statistically going to kill a primaris captain in the first round of combat. He can also be used to charge tanks, making them have to fall back and be unable to fire. He's worth his points for sure. If you wanted to call anything out as being too expensive, I'd look at the DJ.
Disembark before transport moves = 3" + base width ~= 4,5"
12" move
2d6 Blitz
1d6 advance
2d6" charge
= average 34" CC threat
Ignores terrain and models
He's like a cruise missile. The Harlequin "shield breaker"-stratagem. Is he worth it? Not always. Blut he is a ton of fun.
And by the way, you don't have to charge T1. You can hide and with and threaten your opponent into doing mistakes by his looming threat potential.
And how is your Solitaire getting shot first turn before doing anything? He has character protection. Maybe read up some on character positioning and buffering, most decent 40k blogs like Brown Magic or Frontline have articles on it.
Character protection doesn't help much if Solitaire ends up being closest model to the enemy units, which is quite probable if you fail either blitz or charge roll. I personally use Solitaire(when I use him at all) with Webway Assault stratagem, deep-striking him on turn 1 to somewhere that is close to enemy but in complete LOS blockage. In this way you simply can't fail to bring him to strike range at round 2, buuuut....in practice this has never yielded anything useful in my games. Then again, I admit that the reason might be simply that my regular opponents field characters who are simply beyond Solitaire's ability to kill(GK Grandmasters in babycarriers, Demon Princes, Hive Tyrants...basically anything with T5+ seems to be too hard for Solitaire to take down in one round).
jifel wrote:If you're using allies as well, Haemonculus covens do fantastic against sisters, as they are higher than T4 for weight of fire and have a 4++ for the meltas. Other than that, Dark Reapers are great vehicle busters. Try adding a farseer and warlock to get Doom and Jinx going as well. From there, Skyweavers are your best ranged anti tank. Even 8 with doom stand a good chance of killing a transport a turn.
I've been thinking about doing the soup with some DE but i guess i'll go for the reapers, the linked fire tech is very interesting tho
mokoshkana wrote:Which masque are you using?
to this day i had tested 3 masques:
Soaring spite: cool for skyweaver spam but since i only got 6/8 skies it didn't add too much value to my lists
Dreaming shadow: the sombre sentinels has helped me quite a bit but i cant make use of the death jester's relic a lot because of all the "enemy infantry been inside tanks" thing xD
Silent Shroud: i like this one a lot mostly because of the stratagem that prevents overwatch
It took me some time to figure out the best use for the Solitaire. Learned the hard way not to charge a Demon Prince or a smash captain but hitting a unit of Scouts... or a juicy support character is always fun. 10 swings, hitting on 2's wounding mostly on 4's and rerolling all wounds will kill some stuff.
Question for the Harlie players, I am trying something new for a list, running a 12 man squad of Harlies with a split of Kisses and Embraces and no fusion, using the Frozen stars masque, but as a Ynnari detachment. Try to hide them best I can and power them up to avoid losing any, then on my first turn, Move - Advance- (keep them in range of my Yvraine and Shadowseer., then either Soulburst and move, or cast power from Shadowseer to move again, Advance again and then attack, I have 12 guys all moving close to 22 inches and then charging, cast the strat to make the unit ignore overwatch, then wrap something up, I would declare EVERYTHING within 12 inches to charge so once in combat I can bust 3 command points to fight again or/and Soulburst if I did not have to cast that earlier..... First turn I think I can freeze up a army pretty good. Command point heavy I know but aren't harlies always a command point drain?
The main thing that makes the solitaire worth it to me is that everyone and their brother is taking a company commander with Kurovs Aquilla + Grand Strategist. The solitaire can straight up murder that guy which in terms of points is a bad trade but turning off infinite CP for my opponent is a good thing to do.
Cult of My Boy Blue wrote: Question for the Harlie players, I am trying something new for a list, running a 12 man squad of Harlies with a split of Kisses and Embraces and no fusion, using the Frozen stars masque, but as a Ynnari detachment. Try to hide them best I can and power them up to avoid losing any, then on my first turn, Move - Advance- (keep them in range of my Yvraine and Shadowseer., then either Soulburst and move, or cast power from Shadowseer to move again, Advance again and then attack, I have 12 guys all moving close to 22 inches and then charging, cast the strat to make the unit ignore overwatch, then wrap something up, I would declare EVERYTHING within 12 inches to charge so once in combat I can bust 3 command points to fight again or/and Soulburst if I did not have to cast that earlier..... First turn I think I can freeze up a army pretty good. Command point heavy I know but aren't harlies always a command point drain?
The Overwatch stratagem is restricted to The Silent Shroud Masque (It's called "The Silken Knife" for 2 CP), but the Masque you choose will not matter since Ynnari do not retain any of the Harlequin, CWE, or DE benefits from their original codex. So your Harlequins will lose all Masque benefits and Rising Crescendo, which means no +1A or the ability to advance and charge. In order to do what you want, you'd only be able to do a normal move, a second move with Twilight Pathways in the psychic phase, and a third move from Word of the Phoenix. This still gives you 24 inches of movement in the first turn plus an additional 2d6" charge. If you are dead set on running the full 12 Player squad, I think your weapon selection is less than ideal. As you have no way to support that unit of 12 with a TM on the turn it charges, that means of the 48 base attacks, you will hit 32 times and wound an average of 16 against MEQ. Swapping out the embraces for caresses will net you an average of 1.333 more hits, and it is always better to make your opponent roll more saves (they can't fail what they don't have to roll). Additionally, it gives you the ability to go after Plague Marines and other T5 entities with a bit more damage potential.
You would like probably be better off skipping the Ynnari part and just trying to use a shadowseer with Twilight pathways to pull that off. If you need a bunch of CP, take a cheap Black Heart detachment alongside it with two archons, three 5 man kabalite units with blasters and a few venoms, then give your archon the labyrinthine cunning warlord trait.
Curious as to whether you are a fellow Fables fan, btw; based on your screen name, I would guess you are. Check out my avatar.
What is the optimal troupe size in your opinion? Thus far I've always gone with 3 x 5 player troupes, as you can fit them inside Starweavers with TM or Shadowseer, but have been thinking lately on getting one 12 -player troupe and making them deepstrike with the stratagem. The idea here would be that I would first get the warlord with the Player of Light -trait close to enemy, then deepstrike 12 -strong troupe close to him and get re-rolls to assault. Any thoughts or experiences?
I spoilered two lists that were primary Harlequins that won two smaller GTs this past weekend in the US. Might be good to look at, but it seems that Harlequin bikes are by far the most popular add to an Eldar soup list.
I'm thinking of starting a harlequin army but I am a bit worried about the state of the harlequin troop choice.
Why are there no harlequin troupes being taken in competitive play? Are they still too expensive for what they do? Or do they lack a good target in the current meta?
I feel like the troupe is supposed to be a "glass hammer" but it currently does not have enough damage potential to justify its cost.
Has anyone had good success with a harlequin list running mostly troupes, preferably without spamming fusion pistols?
Harlequin troupes are t3 single wound. Putting a shadowseer next to them just makes them T4 essentially, which does not protect them for their price tag. Adding fusion pistols and extra melee weapons does not at all make them tougher, and their transports are fairly expensive. Unfortunately they have a rule that requires them to get close with the enemy, and they are not tough enough to survive contact that they don't initiate.
I never take more than 3 Troupe units when i play them (I almost always play them mono). Against Meta IG/Knights its a hard win, very hard, but against anything else its not to hard, you just need to play the movement/target priory game more so than other armies.
Mass attack is what does it in for them, T3/4 with a 4++ isnt very good against 30 S3/4 guys, you cant kill enough and you cant live long enough for equal points, your vehicles/bikes needs to do a lot of the work. Currently i'm in the belief that you either go FP and no Melee, or Melee and no FP to keep them cheap as you can, again IG/Ork/Chaos (hordes) Melee and super cheap, against DE and alike, FP's.
I normally take (in pure) 3 Voidweavers, 6 Skyweavers, and 6 Starweavers (I want more Skyweavers tho, i just dont have them i would replace 2 Starweavers 1 voidweaver for another unit of 6). It does really well against a lot of things. I completely relay on my vehicles and bikes tho, going Soaring Spite so i can move full speed is important to me winning, i just try to out move and position to win. Blow small holes where i can and then get troupes in to deal damage/tie up units.
It wouldnt work well at a GT currently, but its great for local/semi-comp.
I spoilered two lists that were primary Harlequins that won two smaller GTs this past weekend in the US. Might be good to look at, but it seems that Harlequin bikes are by far the most popular add to an Eldar soup list.
I wouldn't call either of those list Primary Harelquin. In the first list they are the largest list by a point, and in the second, they are largest by 39 points. Those are just soup lists.
What a brutal bunch of changes for Harlequins.
- Flip belt now only works in movement phase, so no more jumping over enemies in the charge or fight phase
- The +1 Save Turn 2 Stratagem is effectively worthless. It will only affect vehicles (which have a 4+/4++) , but most things shooting at our vehicles will be AP-1 or better anyway
The only positive is that Harlequins now have the BEST command point farm ability as we can get more than 1 CP a turn with a little luck.
Weidekuh wrote: Yeah the stratagem should have been +1 to all saves. Troupes got hit hard because of the flip belt nerf.
+1 to all saves may be a bit too powerful. Perhaps an option of getting the current cover bonus or the ability to get a 6++ would allow all armies to benefit in some manner. The game is too diverse for a one size fits all fix.
Weidekuh wrote: Yeah the stratagem should have been +1 to all saves. Troupes got hit hard because of the flip belt nerf.
+1 to all saves may be a bit too powerful. Perhaps an option of getting the current cover bonus or the ability to get a 6++ would allow all armies to benefit in some manner. The game is too diverse for a one size fits all fix.
Yep, +1 to all saves would give Custodes a 2+/4++ equal to a 1+/3++, sure.... LOL
But on to us, Quins got shafted for sure, I normally play with 3 Troupes and now idk if i even want to play them at all anymore...
Weidekuh wrote: Yeah the stratagem should have been +1 to all saves. Troupes got hit hard because of the flip belt nerf.
+1 to all saves may be a bit too powerful. Perhaps an option of getting the current cover bonus or the ability to get a 6++ would allow all armies to benefit in some manner. The game is too diverse for a one size fits all fix.
Yep, +1 to all saves would give Custodes a 2+/4++ equal to a 1+/3++, sure.... LOL
But on to us, Quins got shafted for sure, I normally play with 3 Troupes and now idk if i even want to play them at all anymore...
I think waiting for Chapter Approved before final judgements on Troupes is probably a prudent idea. It is sort of weird that Troupes got hit and our best unit (Skyweavers), didn't get singled out (except the whole fly thing).
In reality, there isn't too much change to what I usually take, Soaring Spite drive by Troupes and a bunch of Skyweavers. We'll see what CA does in a couple months
They effectively made Soaring Spite the only masque worth taking now. Bikes by and large should be fine as they can move/advance 22" inches with fly allowing them to get into proper position for a charge, but Troupes going to be incredibly ineffective now. Screens will stop them in their tracks, and then they will get shot off of the table.
your thoughts on Twighlight pathways and Fire&Fade post FAQ - does belt work on those? both have "as if it was Movement phase" in wording, so my working assumption it does...
elk@work wrote: your thoughts on Twighlight pathways and Fire&Fade post FAQ - does belt work on those? both have "as if it was Movement phase" in wording, so my working assumption it does...
Fly will allow you to ignore terrain and models there because its treated as if it were the movement phase.
I am thinking about taking up a Harlequin army for a slow grow campaign: start off at 250pts, end on 2000pts, add 250pts to the army each month.
I'd like to ask a few questions about the army before I commit:
1. Do you get much variety in army comp with only 8 units? Even my Custodes have more variety than that!
2. What are the opportunities for converting models? My World Eaters army is fully converted and so is my Custodes army. This might not be a deal breaker but I do like to give armies a personal touch.
3. If I were to start a Harlequin army, what would you suggest getting? Is there anything out of the aforementioned 8 units that I should stay away from?
4. Is this army dead in the ground or might it see some new releases in the next 100 years?
mrhappyface wrote: 1. Do you get much variety in army comp with only 8 units? Even my Custodes have more variety than that!
There isn't too terribly much unity variety, but you can play around with different masque variations to break up painting monotony and give different units different options. For instance, Frozen Stars units can be kitted out for maximum melee punch, while Soaring Sprite can be used to get fusion pistols into your opponents face. Research the masques and what they do. This will help inspire your vision.
mrhappyface wrote: 2. What are the opportunities for converting models? My World Eaters army is fully converted and so is my Custodes army. This might not be a deal breaker but I do like to give armies a personal touch.
You can do some awesome conversions. There are a set number of poses/arm options, but they can be slightly tweaked to give each model a little subtle difference. Here is a pronounced back bend that is not standard for one of my players:
Spoiler:
And here is a conversion I did for a Troupe Master using a voidweaver gunner:
An example of the actual gunner:
Spoiler:
And my Troupe Master:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
mrhappyface wrote: 3. If I were to start a Harlequin army, what would you suggest getting? Is there anything out of the aforementioned 8 units that I should stay away from?
I think this depends on your ultimate play style. Bikes are really good, and your best anti-tank/knight. However It is not practical to fit them in at 250. I would likely aim for a Troupe and a Shadowseer. This is 190 points stock and that gives you 60pts to upgrade your pistols/weapons. I'd try to stick to 5 players as that would allow you to add a transport in month 2, which could hold the Troupe and Shadowseer. If you can find a build for month 1 that is only 248, then after the Starweaver, you'd have enough for 3 bikes with glaives and haywire cannons.
mrhappyface wrote: 4. Is this army dead in the ground or might it see some new releases in the next 100 years?
This army is likely complete barring any surprises that may come from a Ynnari release, which is a good thing in my opinion. This means that once you are done with your ideal 2k points, you will actually have a complete army.
3. If I were to start a Harlequin army, what would you suggest getting? Is there anything out of the aforementioned 8 units that I should stay away from?
4. Is this army dead in the ground or might it see some new releases in the next 100 years?
Cheers!
3. I personally don't think Death Jesters are generally worth it, unless you build a whole detachment around them. I'm also not a huge fan of Voidweavers, but technically they aren't terrible.
Your 'Core' is going to be some Troupes, Skyweavers, and a Shadowseer or two.
4. I think there could be some new releases eventually, (Mimes? maybe). I doubt they'll jump into the whole 'bigger and bigger units! Yay!' thing that is going on right now though. Nice thing about them also is they are sort of a good gateway drug to getting into the other Eldar factions too. They also incorporate well into the other Eldar factions and complement each other nicely.
Right now they are a good spoiler army though, field enough Skyweavers and they can basically take out any knight you want per turn. I just hate knights and baneblade type units and how lazy and 'point and click' they are, so any time I can flush them and make the other player pay for that choice is a bonus for me.
So I've caved, I managed to get a Shadowseer, 2 troupe masters, a death jester, a solitare, 10 players, a webway portal and the Ynnarri trio for pretty cheap.
I'm thinking of grabbing another unit of Troupe and two Starweavers to bring me to a 1000pt pure Harlequin list. Does that seem like a good start? And what can I do with the Ynnarri stuff?
mrhappyface wrote: So I've caved, I managed to get a Shadowseer, 2 troupe masters, a death jester, a solitare, 10 players, a webway portal and the Ynnarri trio for pretty cheap.
I'm thinking of grabbing another unit of Troupe and two Starweavers to bring me to a 1000pt pure Harlequin list. Does that seem like a good start? And what can I do with the Ynnarri stuff?
Honestly, you want at least 1 unit of Skyweavers too. Troupes like Starweavers for sure, and having 3 Troupes for a Battalion is a good way to gain CP, if you can afford the extra Skyweaver box or 2, it will make you very happy. If you want to wait till Dec for CA to see if they get nerf, thats not a bad idea.
I can't give any advice about the Ynarri, I've heard Yvraine is good. I don't use Ynarri though.
The Webway portal is unusable with it's current rules.
The Starweavers are needed. 2-3 boxes of Skyweavers should be next on your list of things to buy, they are probably the best Harlequin unit and fill an important gap in the Harlequin unit options.
mrhappyface wrote: So I've caved, I managed to get a Shadowseer, 2 troupe masters, a death jester, a solitare, 10 players, a webway portal and the Ynnarri trio for pretty cheap.
I'm thinking of grabbing another unit of Troupe and two Starweavers to bring me to a 1000pt pure Harlequin list. Does that seem like a good start? And what can I do with the Ynnarri stuff?
Are the TM's and Players new on the sprue? How do you want to play your army in terms of style? As for the Ynnari, this is far trickier. Generally speaking, Rising Crescendo (RC) and the masque forms are vastly superior to Strength From Death (SFD). So for fun, you can the trio as a stand alone Supreme Command Detachment, but in order to use them as part of an integrated army, you'd probably have to do an Outrider Detachment with a bunch of haywire Skyweavers in order to benefit from shooting twice.
Kzraahk wrote: Competitively speaking, is the Voidweaver worth it? I have Troupes, Starweavers and Skyweavers already
For GT's, in a Pure Quins army, yes, if you are soup then most likely not. Their problem is range, with only 24" guns you are now in range of way to much firepower.
I personally like them, they are cheap enough that i dont care if they die, and can also be forward threats other than my troupes and skyweavers.
Next, I will have a game with CW+Harlies vs. infantry Necrons (2000 pts). The idea is to have Biel-Tan for shooty support and Harlies for cc. My concern is overwatch and so the army selection has been built according to this.
Spoiler:
New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [107 PL, 2002pts]
Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Harlequins) [41 PL, 862pts]
No Force Org Slot
Masque Form
Selections: The Silent Shroud: Dance of Nightmares Made Flesh
HQ [11 PL, 211pts]
Shadowseer [7 PL, 125pts]
Selections: Fog of Dreams, Shards of Light, Shuriken Pistol
Troupe Master [4 PL, 86pts]
Selections: Fusion Pistol [9pts], Great Harlequin, Harlequin's Caress [7pts], Player of the Light, The Starmist Raiment, Warlord
wuestenfux wrote: Next, I will have a game with CW+Harlies vs. infantry Necrons (2000 pts). The idea is to have Biel-Tan for shooty support and Harlies for cc. My concern is overwatch and so the army selection has been built according to this.
Spoiler:
New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [107 PL, 2002pts]
Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Harlequins) [41 PL, 862pts]
No Force Org Slot
Masque Form
Selections: The Silent Shroud: Dance of Nightmares Made Flesh
HQ [11 PL, 211pts]
Shadowseer [7 PL, 125pts]
Selections: Fog of Dreams, Shards of Light, Shuriken Pistol
Troupe Master [4 PL, 86pts]
Selections: Fusion Pistol [9pts], Great Harlequin, Harlequin's Caress [7pts], Player of the Light, The Starmist Raiment, Warlord
For a long time I was primarily a Soaring Spite sort of guy, but I've really been getting more enthusiastic about Silent Shroud recently. However, I really think a unit of 6 Skyweavers and a Shadowseer with Twilight Pathways is essential to get the most out of it. It sets up an amazing opening move.
1) Move up your Skyweavers keeping the Shadowseer within 3 inches of a trailing Skyweaver
2) Twilight the Skyweavers into a position to charge multiple units. Preferrably a decent vehicle, and a couple small units that you are confident they can wipe in CC.
3) Haywire fire into another vehicle (not the one you're going to charge). Probably blow it up.
4) Silken Knife strat and charge.
5) CC and wipe the small units.
6) consolidate into the Vehicle that is still alive.
7) Enemy vehicle falls back, use Cegorach's Jest. Blow up said vehicle.
8) Laugh and laugh and laugh like a manical clown.
9) Might need to use Lightning Reflexes and/or Ishas weeping because your opponent is going to want those Skyweavers gone.
It can work without Silent Shroud, but the huge footprint can lock down a big chunk of the opponents army without overwatch, helping out the rest of your list. Just remember to you can't be engaged with anything other than the withdrawing vehicle in order to use Cegorach's Jest.
Sometimes it's worth it to skip the Jest setup and just lock down half of the opposing shooting instead.
Bottom line I'd switch up the Shadowseers powers, drop some Craftworld components and some Carresses, and take 6 Skyweavers.
Does anyone have any success stories about the Suit of Hidden Knives? I like the theoretical damage output it could do, but my Relics are usually Starmist on a TM and the Rose on a Solitaire and I can't quite convince myself that I should take the Suit.
Personally, I feel that unless you're planning on throwing the Suit at a specific character from the very start, its too much resources into a gamble that might work. Against something like Gulliman or Abaddon? Sure, if you know for sure that they're coming. But then you need two psychic powers to go off, which means possibly a CP on a reroll (and hoping its not denied), plus Lightning Fast Reflexes (more CP) plus bringign the suit in the first place.
Its absolutely a fun trick, but if you're running pure quins I think you need something significantly more reliable. A Solitaire with the Rose will usually do the same job, but way more reliably.
I hope this is the right place to ask this, but I've been getting back into 40K and am now looking into building a Harlequins list with allies.
Right now I have a Troupe box and a Starweaver, with the Troupe Master assembled so far (Embrace and Fusion Pistol). I also have a Shadowseer I painted a while ago.
Looking around online, I think I want the core of my force to be Shadowseer, Troupe Master, Solitaire and then 3 units of 5 players (again armed with embraces and fusion) in 3 Starweavers.
I'd be open to adding some bikers to this too, but I'd like to bring an allied detachment of either Dark or regular Eldar to shore up any weaknesses and provide some more painting options.
What are the pros/cons of Drukhari or CW allies? Which units from these best support Harlequins? I'm quite fond of the Wraithguard/Wraithlords, would they fit in at all? I'm aiming for 2000 points to play at my local club so I'm not looking for tournament lists but I'm not very good at working out synergies myself.
swiftmus wrote: I hope this is the right place to ask this, but I've been getting back into 40K and am now looking into building a Harlequins list with allies.
Right now I have a Troupe box and a Starweaver, with the Troupe Master assembled so far (Embrace and Fusion Pistol). I also have a Shadowseer I painted a while ago.
Looking around online, I think I want the core of my force to be Shadowseer, Troupe Master, Solitaire and then 3 units of 5 players (again armed with embraces and fusion) in 3 Starweavers.
I'd be open to adding some bikers to this too, but I'd like to bring an allied detachment of either Dark or regular Eldar to shore up any weaknesses and provide some more painting options.
What are the pros/cons of Drukhari or CW allies? Which units from these best support Harlequins? I'm quite fond of the Wraithguard/Wraithlords, would they fit in at all? I'm aiming for 2000 points to play at my local club so I'm not looking for tournament lists but I'm not very good at working out synergies myself.
That is a good core you are planning on, so I would definitely start with that. Getting 6 Skyweavers with Haywire, 5 with Glaives is also a very solid unit to have in your core build.
Carresses are generally considered to be slightly better than embraces, just FYI. Don't go too overboard with the upgrades, the trick with Harlequins is finding that balance between having enough upgrades to make the units effective, but not throwing everything on them and making them way too expensive. The base Harlequin is pretty good just vanilla, for their points, but it is very easy to more than double their cost with upgrades. A 29 pt Quin with Fusion and Carress, and a 13 pt Quin take the same amount of effort to kill.
Any thoughts on which Masque you want? Different Masques have slightly different builds and synergize a little differently with either Dark Eldar or Craftworld.
Basically:
Lots of options with Dark Eldar, you'd have to decide if you want to Ally in Coven, Kabal, or Cult. They all work very differently. Coven for tough stuff and morale shenanigans. Cult for speed and close combat. Kabal for shooting.
For Craftworld, the main thing you'd want to Ally in would be Psykers. Usually starting with a Farseer and at least one warlock. Then go from there. Some of the stronger units right now are Shining Spears, Banshees, and Reapers, with Guardians and Rangers being solid troops. If you want to go more Wraith based, then taking a Spiritseer instead of the warlock is a good option. The Hemlock wraithfighter is one of the better fliers in the game too.
What I usually do is start off with my core list, whether that is Harlequins or Dark Eldar, then look at what the glaring weaknesses are. Then patch up the weaknesses with whatever group I'm allying in.
Having looked at more posts on here and other sites, it seems that one weakness the Harlies have is if they charge in and fail to kill their target, resulting in the enemy backing off and shooting them to pieces. In this case, would it make sense to go all in with melee support (Wyches or something)?
My other thought, also based on reading online, is to be more smart and avoid charging in until I'm certain to win. In this case I'd be aiming to strafe around and shoot from the Starweavers, disembarking to charge once the enemy is thinned out more.
I really like the Wraith models and the CW starter box has a decent discount, so I'm wondering how effective Wraithguard and Wraithlords would be as support to Quins. Looks like the Wraithguard could make tough objective holders to counter-balance the Harlies being fragile glass cannons.
Are the melee Wraithguard any good or would shooty be the best support? I'd load them in Wave Serpents for mobility.
As much as possible I'd like to avoid the resin models, so Aspect Warrior units would be out.
My inspiration for starting the army comes from a game I played last week against Dark Eldar - Wyches in Venoms and warriors in raiders, flying across the table and disembarking to wreck my mechanicus in close combat. I really liked the lightning melee assault playstyle and have always loved the Harlequin models which is what drew me to them specifically.
Having looked at more posts on here and other sites, it seems that one weakness the Harlies have is if they charge in and fail to kill their target, resulting in the enemy backing off and shooting them to pieces. In this case, would it make sense to go all in with melee support (Wyches or something)?
My other thought, also based on reading online, is to be more smart and avoid charging in until I'm certain to win. In this case I'd be aiming to strafe around and shoot from the Starweavers, disembarking to charge once the enemy is thinned out more.
Harlies have a stratagem called Cegorach's Jest, that allows them to shoot enemies who are falling back. It's very effective, although most opponents wisen up to it very quick. Still, I managed to kill two Land Raiders in yesterdays game with it, which should tell you something about it's usefulness. Generally speaking you should never shy away from charging at enemies when playing with harlequins. Trying to avoid melee just gives your opponent time to shoot you, and there are only very few units that can really withstand a succesfull charge from harlequins.
It's probably one of my favorite strats, because what option does it leave your opponent? Either way your opponent does what you want them to do. Stay in close combat? Sure, then you can't shoot me. Fall back? Sure, then I get to Haywire you to death. Lovely. And for only 1 CP.
Does anyone here have any good ways of getting enough Fusion and Kiss' for an entire Troupe other than just paying through the nose for them on Bits websites?
But that's no good because I want to arm my Troupes with Fusion and kisses
Why? Carresses and Embraces are generally better, except Cegorach's Rose when you put it on a Solitaire or TM.
You can check Shapeways for 3d printed bits. I know there are fusion pistol arms on there, I can't recall seeing any kisses available though. There are enough kisses in the box, so really you'd just need fusion. Just pick up 10 on Shapeways for like 20 bucks to fill the deficit and you're good.
Regarding Cegorach's Jest, as long as the enemy falls back more than 6 inches from your Troupe, you presumably can't shoot them with fusion pistols. Seems a bit useless (except if the unit is trapped or moves very slowly).
Slashy McTalons wrote: Regarding Cegorach's Jest, as long as the enemy falls back more than 6 inches from your Troupe, you presumably can't shoot them with fusion pistols. Seems a bit useless (except if the unit is trapped or moves very slowly).
That's why it's used on Skyweavers, situational at best on Troupes.
So i just got an amazing deal on some harliquens and i could use the help of the forums on what to do.
We have an escalation league coming up at the friendly local game store and i was thinking of using harlequins. Escalation starts at 500 pts then adds 250 each month until we hit 1500.
I find when making a new army that i enjoy it more when it has clear and concise goals. To that end this is what I am looking at.
I dont want to mix craftworlds. I am ok mixing masques, i will paint each masque differently once i have things figured out. I want to have a competitive local level army, but i am also looking for the army to have its own flare (i think this fits harliquens perfectly). My main opponent i would like my army to be able to beat is Tau. The local tau player has his force trimmed to a fatless force of pure power, using a mixture of firewarriors / shield drones / pathfinders / stealth suits / ghost keel / broadsides / stormsurges / and farsight. His normal tactic is to castle up and blow the opponent away controlling any objectives on his side and using the stealth suits / ghost keel / farsight to move up, take an early lead by grabbing at least 1 more objective, then holding onto the lead by blasting the opponents off the table. So yeah thats what i want to kill lol.
Any help is appreciated. Again most the stuff is nos.
At 500pts you really need to focus less on CP and more on more models. Harlequins are extremely Rock, paper, Scissors at low levels, you have a chance to triumph or get destroyed (ts just their nature).
Use a TM for sure, not a Shadowseer for now (125pts is a lot compare to 70-80pts)
Have 1 unit in a Starweavers, give them 2 weapons of your choice to keep them cheap
Then have 2 Skyweavers, HWC is almost a must for them, but the melee weapon isnt, 1 melee weapon is fine.
After take add in either more troupes/transport or a the Solitaire and DJ's, the transports are costly, but having a large movement -1/4++ at 500pts is very strong. DJ's and Solitaire are good at low levels due to their rules and cost.
Troupes are good, but they are not great, they are a bit costly for what you get, try to only have 1-2 at the most till 750pts, once you hit 1k, its easier to have 2-3 of them and take a battalion.
Note: Im assuming you have Starweavers b.c you said Skyweavers twice
Alternatively, you can be TFG and take a Shadowseer and 3x2 Skyweavers.
Yeah, starweavers. I have 4 of the bikes that get the haywire cannon and ccw option and 5 of the transports.
Yeah early into escalation I don't care about winning or losing, its about feeling out the army. Any suggestions on how harliquins can beat that kind of tau list? My initial thoughts is i have to kill his stealth suits / ghost kheel force so they cant score outside area objectives but i also feel that could be a trap, i should spend my initial assault hitting his lines and outmaneuver his force as best as i can.
Azuza001 wrote: Yeah, starweavers. I have 4 of the bikes that get the haywire cannon and ccw option and 5 of the transports.
Yeah early into escalation I don't care about winning or losing, its about feeling out the army. Any suggestions on how harliquins can beat that kind of tau list? My initial thoughts is i have to kill his stealth suits / ghost kheel force so they cant score outside area objectives but i also feel that could be a trap, i should spend my initial assault hitting his lines and outmaneuver his force as best as i can.
Tau is easy. Take Silent Shroud Skyweavers, Twilight Path the Skyweavers into a position to charge his best units, then Silken Knife them and charge every unit you can so you can't be Overwatched. Then mop up with the rest or your army. You can shut down an entire gunline with a well placed Silken Knife charge.
So, let's talk Chapter Approved. From what I can gather, all we got was a 2pt reduction for Fusion Pistols; not bad if you're running a lot of troupes (those 2pts here and there add up) but it isn't that much. What I'm quite dissapointed about is that there have been no rumours/leaks of Harlequin special detachments or formations or whatever they are.
mrhappyface wrote: So, let's talk Chapter Approved. From what I can gather, all we got was a 2pt reduction for Fusion Pistols; not bad if you're running a lot of troupes (those 2pts here and there add up) but it isn't that much. What I'm quite dissapointed about is that there have been no rumours/leaks of Harlequin special detachments or formations or whatever they are.
Anyone heard anything different?
Thankfully no. I was dreading CA for my Harlequins so getting through it with just a 2 point drop on FPs was a huge win in my book. With how much whining knight players have been doing about Haywire I was extremely concerned that Skyweavers were going to be nerfed to the ground and Quins viability as a mono-codex would be gone with it.
I agree, i think the fact all we had was a 2pt drop in fusion means, at least to gw, is that our army is working exactly like intended and knight players who cry (personally dont think they have a leg to stand on) were ignored.
Harlequin's are in a good place currently. They still have durability issues, but I think you will see them succeed in the new GW missions. They can use their speed to jump out to an early point lead, and then when they melt like butter it won't matter as much because they can still win after they are all dead.
I honestly wish we had a 2pt decrease also for our troupes... it makes me sad how costly they are compare to wyches, when they are double the bodies and 30% more damage for the same points. RC is good, but PfP is equal in 8th IMO.
But i'm hoping by the 3rd Vigilus book we will have at least 1 or 2 Specialist Detachments to help us out (thats not Skyweavers)
I posted this in the Eldar thread, but didn't get much love, what are your thoughts?
For those that run Soups, particularly Harlies on bikes with Eldar, what do you do regarding HQs for them?
Skyweavers are great, adding a HQ can be hard though. I want to run a very mobile army, almost everything on bikes. but I'm not sure if a foot HQ will keep up. Looking at a Shadowseer, the Eldar HQs will be Skyrunners.
Adding a Troupe and a Transport will cost ~200pts, 300pts with the HQ, although not a complete tax as they could be effective on their own. I'd prefer not to include them and put the pts somewhere else.
Do people have problems with foot harlies in a mobile force? I'm worried they will be left behind/easy to pick off.
I thinking shadowseer, plus 3,3,4 bikes, fully kitted.
Shadowseer with Twilight Pathways and Shards of light. The negative hit powers only help infantry, not the bikes. If nothing else he can just crank out MWs.
TMs aren't much good on their own. And like you said a Quin troop will usually run about 210-225 pts including a Starweaver, which you have to include to get anything out of them.
If you have point availability I'd rather bring a Seer and Solitaire rather than a TM and Troupe
For the bikes each squad usually will have one bike with Bolas (to save a few points and to be the first to die), everything else with Glaives.
Pretty standard Soaring Spite set up: everything zooms up the board, the Shadowseer gets out and catapults the big bike squad forward. Only thing I'm wavering on is whether to split the bike squads into 3 and run an Outrider: gives an extra CP, I can give the bikes a better Masque form and they'd be less vulnerable to overkill but the Shadowseer trick wouldn't work as well.
Ideasweasel wrote: I’m just starting a harlie army and I am curious. Is the caress the only worthwhile weapon?
Here's what I can tell between the Caress, Embrace and Kiss (note I haven't been playing Harlies that long):
The Kiss is not as useful since you'll be taking fusion pistols to deal with multi-wound models.
That leaves the Embrace and Caress - The Embrace is better against T3, T6 and T7 whilst the Caress is better against T4, T5 and T8; the Caress is better against anything with an invul that is at most 2 worse than it's armour save; the Caress is better against anything with a 5+ save or worse. So it's really just a matter of what you require, in most cases you won't be too worried about T3 targets and you have fusion and Haywire to deal with most T7/T8 targets. So ask yourself this: how many units do you know that are T6, have a 2+/3+ save and lack a good invulnerable save?
I’ve no idea how your army will work but it looks cool and you’ve squeezed in plenty of fun toys. Good luck
Remember that you cannot advance and fire pistols, so you'll find times where a kiss or two is a nice to have, since fusion only have a 6" range. Also, kiss variants are great against characters for doing multiple points of damage. I find embrace to be lacking unless you come up with a list where you need that last single point.
mokoshkana wrote: Remember that you cannot advance and fire pistols, so you'll find times where a kiss or two is a nice to have, since fusion only have a 6" range. Also, kiss variants are great against characters for doing multiple points of damage. I find embrace to be lacking unless you come up with a list where you need that last single point.
You can if you're Soaring Spite. Hense why most people using drivebys are Soaring Spite, you can advance and shoot, and no BS penalty or pistol targeting restrictions.
The only Kiss I use is on a Solitaire with the Rose, otherwise it's a mix of Carresses and Embraces... if Troupes get many CC upgrades at all.
mokoshkana wrote: Remember that you cannot advance and fire pistols, so you'll find times where a kiss or two is a nice to have, since fusion only have a 6" range. Also, kiss variants are great against characters for doing multiple points of damage. I find embrace to be lacking unless you come up with a list where you need that last single point.
You can if you're Soaring Spite. Hense why most people using drivebys are Soaring Spite, you can advance and shoot, and no BS penalty or pistol targeting restrictions.
The only Kiss I use is on a Solitaire with the Rose, otherwise it's a mix of Carresses and Embraces... if Troupes get many CC upgrades at all.
Soaring Spite only allows them to do that in a transport though. If you lose that transport and have to hoof it, then no advance and shoot.
1st game -
Against DeathGuard with double Daemon Princes, Spawn, Plague Toads, Possessed and a R&H detachment with thud guns and disciples. Maelstorm mission that ended in a draw. I went first, charged across the board and the game devolved into a slap fest with the Nurgle stuff just not dying! I got tabled but we were playing with CA18 rules so my opponent got another turn of play where he evened the score.
Notes - I need to keep a cheat sheet with me: I forgot my shuriken cannons turn 1, I forgot about a lot of my stratagems and I forgot about my Shadowseer and Troupe Master's special rules.
2nd Game -
Against Imperial Guard Tank hunter list (3 Super Heavy Tanks plus support tanks). Crushing victory for me. Jesus! I tabled my opponent by turn 2 with those fusion and Haywire guns. I felt pretty sorry about that game.
3rd Game -
Against the first list again. Loss for me. It was a pretty close game and game down to three combats which I bungled; the first was three units of Troupes vs a single Daemon Prince but my opponent rolled ao well for saves I just couldn't kill him; the second was a stupid charge I made when a single bike charged a Renegade commander instead of just sitting on an objective and I got punished for my mistake; and the last was a duel between a Troupe master and a Lord of Contagion over the last objective of the game which would decide the victor but I forgot I could re-roll wound rolls, the LoC survived with 1 wound, killed me and ended the game.
Overall I had loads of fun and I might do a bit better in the future if I manage to remember my rules.
So my flgs is running an escalation league over the next few months. We are currently at 500 pts and i am running harliquins in it. So far they are doing me proud, only lost 2 games so far, one vs dark eldar wych cult force (was a heck of a game though) and one vs imperial guard (i simply played it wrong and was punished for it).
Last night i finally tried out the death jester and curtinfall. Omg that is such a beast weapon! I played vs craftworld and he was doing some serious work. One turn i put 4 wounds on a wave serpent (damn serpent shield, would have been 7) without breaking a sweat.
My question is is it better to bring a 2nd detachment of shadowseer and 3 deathjesters to get curtainfall or just a single dj as an auxiliary detachment to get it? I run a large force of starweavers as soaring spite normally so i have trouble sometimes finding the points just to put a single shadowseer into my force.
Azuza001 wrote: So my flgs is running an escalation league over the next few months. We are currently at 500 pts and i am running harliquins in it. So far they are doing me proud, only lost 2 games so far, one vs dark eldar wych cult force (was a heck of a game though) and one vs imperial guard (i simply played it wrong and was punished for it).
Last night i finally tried out the death jester and curtinfall. Omg that is such a beast weapon! I played vs craftworld and he was doing some serious work. One turn i put 4 wounds on a wave serpent (damn serpent shield, would have been 7) without breaking a sweat.
My question is is it better to bring a 2nd detachment of shadowseer and 3 deathjesters to get curtainfall or just a single dj as an auxiliary detachment to get it? I run a large force of starweavers as soaring spite normally so i have trouble sometimes finding the points just to put a single shadowseer into my force.
Would love to here how others run him, if at all.
I dont think so, you are spending many points for 1CP, just take the 1CP hit and take units you actually want.
However we are about to bump it up to 750 so with that i will definitely be able to get my brigade in for sweet sweet cp.
Though i have been mixing it up lately. Last night i played 2 lists, one was a foot harliquen list with the curtainfall death jester, it did alright but that jester man..... he was the star of the list.
2nd list i have had a lot of success with is the fusion star missile list.
Starweavers fly forward, then shadowseer jumps out and twilight paths fusion loaded starweaver another 26" so a 52" move t1. It unloads, then when my opponent freaks out (and they do) spend 2 cp for -1 to hit and 1cp for 3++ save. Makes for a hell of a distraction..... won that game too... though again close fight.
You mean Battalion? Brigade is 6 Troops 3 HQs 3 of each other lol, its like 1300pts or something for quins.
Battalion is 2 HQ's 3 Troops.
The only good DJ is the Curtainfall one with CP to buff it, Curtainfall with Shrieking Doom and An Example Made, means you are S8, -3AP, D3, 2 Hits instead of 1 (or just 1Cp and shoot 3x for 6 S7, -2, 1D) its viable way to play a DJ, but honestly at higher point games (1500+) you wont notice that little damage for so much CP, it is best in smaller games.
Anyone have much luck trying a sniper bus? Starweaver with 3 death jesters putting out 15 shuriken cannon shots, with 9 being targetable vs chrs, seems good to me.
add in an HQ and you have a vanguard detachment for 359pts with a shadowseer, 3 DJs and a starweaver. I'm just not sure that a vanguard of DJs is going to have much impact on a regular game. One DJ for curtainfall seems OK though.
the world and flavour of 40K has changed since 2005 when last I played. After a couple years under my belt, I'm getting the hang of 8th.
I play CWE 90% and the rest is Blood Angels/Tyranids. I do have a Dark Eldar and PDF force which I have played with Index lists.
So I am about to start using Harlies again. My list is old old models.
I do not have the Dex or cards yet and have not looked over the newer stuff much. Will plan to do so.
I am curious fluff and marketing reasons why the ranges have changed.
First where is the Great Harlequin????
Why are their 2 rider Jetbikes but no options for 1 rider jetbikes???
I see no Mimes, Master Mimes, Benathai Familiars, Shadow Seer Acolytes, Harliquin Wraithlord/dreadnought.....when did GW decide to remove those?
Back in the day Rasmus included my Harlequin MockingBird in the first ever FanDex for the Harlies.
I had come up with a vyper with a sonic cannon for their theatre sound (based on the Vibro Canon). Now years later it seems the SkyWeaver and StarWeaver is a direct decendant of my dreamchild from 15+ years ago......grrrrrr (At least my name was wayyyyyy cooollllllller!)
So without having read 'modern' Harliquin fluff, why are some important elements of our lists gone? It is such a scarce list as it was. Seems like everything should be included and more.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For those not in the know:
The Great Harlequin led every troupe and was equal to the Solitaire in many ways.
ShadowSeer Acolytes were low level shadowseers in training and only were present if a master seer was with them.
Mimes were a scout type unit of a troupe squad.
Master Mimes was a character almost equal to the Great Harlequin in battle but with infiltration rules.
Harlequin Dreadnought was a conversion of a Wraithlord with a Psychic Scream and Psychic Lance. It caused Terror and could chew thru vehicles.
The Benathai Familiar was the coolest model ever. It was based on the Eagle Endobi that saved the Laughing god from Slaanesh. The GW story was epic. the model was an epic scale War Walker with the eagle head of Marneus Calgar banner pack. They had twin lasers that were surprisingly good for a model the size of a grot and they defeneded their ShadowSeers in groups of 1 to 4 in numbers.
Great Harlequin is in the Book, you need to upgrade 1 Troupe Master to it.
Two riders is just aesthetic, there is no reason, you can used only 1 rider on it and it wouldnt change anything. Some players do and use the other rider as a Troupe. The extra rider just enabled it to gain +1 wound over normal bikers for rules purpose.
GW had a HUGE lawsuit with 3rd party model makers about 4 years ago, they actually lost and had to pull many models, so many armies lost some units. WHen GW went to redesign the Harlequins they desided to not add much to them (the lawsuit and being a "NIche" army meant they wouldnt be very large out the door) This doesnt mean we wont get new models in the future.
Old rules are gone, new rules are here. Every army is different now for the most part from 2nd edition.
Harlequins where in 8th can be fun, especially using DE/CWE allies. So before you write them off due to fluff and unit changes you should try them out
Looking at the amount of posts etc, I would say quins aren't popular.. is the army competetive? I'm looking at starting a 1000pt army and adding craft world for the other 1k.
The army is solid. Big reason why there aren't more pages is just because there aren't many different units. You can only talk about the same 8 units for so long before you just start having the same discussions over and over again.
The majority of people use Harlequins as part of an Aeldari list, some do pure Harlequins though. They can be competitive for sure, but force multipliers like Craftworld Psychers and Ynnari Soulbursts are often seen as too good to pass up when it comes to the competitive scene.
They do have a couple of the best units in the game though. The Solitaire is a beast, with the Rose he is excellent at taking down multi-wound infantry. Skyweavers are also one of the best units in the game, mainly because of the insane popularity of Knights (Skyweavers were just 'good' before the Knight codex, after the Knight release, they became awesome). Most other selections get the job done, with the Voidweaver and Death Jester being more 'situational' choices.
You can make a solid Battalion for roughly 1000pts, they are a ton of fun on the tabletop once you are familiar with all their tricks.
Sn33R wrote: Looking at the amount of posts etc, I would say quins aren't popular.. is the army competetive? I'm looking at starting a 1000pt army and adding craft world for the other 1k.
As an ally in CWE or DE they are amazing, as an army them selves they are lacking, the Troupes seem good, but they have the marines problem, to many points for what they do. Wyches out survive and out damage when equally pointed for Melee. FP spam is boring and doesnt work well in 8th.
With that said, the Deathjester, Solitaire, Skyweavers are all very good. The Voidweaver and HQ's work as well. You will see many Soup lists having either some Elite character, a Skyweaver unit, or both.
Also, they become boring really fast, as the army is only a few units and its essentially only does 3 things, 24" S6 shooting, 4++ (So 50% chance to always fail your saves, No armor but 1 unit, no bonus to saves via cover), and S4 (or S5) melee with limited buffs.
They do have very fun characters and Relic, you can make some of the best and more fun to play with combos in the game. Suit of Knives vs mass melee is fun on a -2 hit Shadowseer that is also -1 to wound. Double attack, anti-overwatch Solitaire, DJ with 30" sniper that can run and shoot with bonus damage. Turn 1 charging TM and Solitaires.
I love my Quins, but they are always more fun and better with Soup (In before "But everything is" No, my CWE, DE, Tyranids work fine solo for both TAC lists and repetitive fun) I, a bit biased tho when it comes to fun, b.c i play 2-4 games a week, so if a army doesnt have enough to do in it i get bored.
I have the same opinion as the last two posters. The lack of variety really is the main issue. You can't really try new things like you can with DE or CWE, which can build a variety of very different lists, especially at the casual/semi-competitive level.
I also really dislike the army-wide 4++ as a mechanism. When you field a mono Harlequin army, you can basically tell your opponent that the AP column of his/her weapons is completely irrelevant. It's not a great design to simply ignore a whole base mechanism. And that also removes a lot of variety/tactical choices during the game.
So what is the main role of the Harlequin in a CWE list?
What does the ShadowSeer do?
What does the Troupe do? If you even take one.
What is the role of the Skyweavers?
How small is the most impactful detachment of Harlies and how does it work.
Is it just a counter charge or distraction carnifex or does it have an integral role.
I cannot see a small detachment being board control...So they are disruptive I guess.
I played a 1k point game vs them last nite for the first time...so I have a bit of insight to how they play. They do seem very limited in their tactics.
admironheart wrote: So what is the main role of the Harlequin in a CWE list?
What does the ShadowSeer do? What does the Troupe do? If you even take one. What is the role of the Skyweavers?
How small is the most impactful detachment of Harlies and how does it work.
Is it just a counter charge or distraction carnifex or does it have an integral role.
I cannot see a small detachment being board control...So they are disruptive I guess.
I played a 1k point game vs them last nite for the first time...so I have a bit of insight to how they play. They do seem very limited in their tactics.
Shadowseer moves units twice and does MW's, more of a tax.
Your main goal is to take Skyweavers, at least 6, best Anti-vehicle in game, vs a Doom target you will kill a Knight a turn (I have killed 2 24 wound+ knights in 1 turn before with 3++/4++ saves from Ynnari + Doom + double Shoot).
DJ and Solitaires are very good too, Solitaire as Ynnari can fight 3x, DJ are just cheap and can kill bodies off objectives or pressure a small character (IG ones types)
You take a few key units for a hammer, Troupes, Voidweavers, Troupe Masters, Starweavers bring nothing to the game that DE or CWE does for better and cheaper.
Note, i used to take DE battalion with 3 Ravagers and 2 RWJF instead of Wyches and Yncarne, but i LOVE the Yncane so i play this instead now.
To add: Quins are for sure better at 1k game, you can take 100 point troupes (300pts) 1 unit of Bikes for 300pts and 5 characters, all very strong, as Dreaming shadow they all shoot when they die on a 4+, most 1k games dont have enough small arms fire (what they are weak too, like Heavy Bolters) to deal enough damage turn 1 and 2 before they can kill you just enough that you cant kill them with lots of shots.
Harlequins are weak to mass shooting that are cheap and AP doesnt matter, Heavy Bolters, Storm Bolters, Assault cannons, etc.. a Thunderfire cannons, Whirlwinds, etc.. wreck them hard. Sisters of battle are a direct counter to them, Those SB doms with 90+ bodies getting 30 SB's and 20 HB's along with 3+/5++ and FnP will always win. But, quins are really good against armies with high AP, low amount of shots, and vehicle heavy. I have never lots any serious game to Marines, Admech, Knights, etc..
admironheart wrote: So what is the main role of the Harlequin in a CWE list?
What does the ShadowSeer do?
What does the Troupe do? If you even take one.
What is the role of the Skyweavers?
How small is the most impactful detachment of Harlies and how does it work.
Is it just a counter charge or distraction carnifex or does it have an integral role.
I cannot see a small detachment being board control...So they are disruptive I guess.
I played a 1k point game vs them last nite for the first time...so I have a bit of insight to how they play. They do seem very limited in their tactics.
Main role of the Shadowseer is Mortal Wounds, durability buffs, and Twilight Pathways.
Troupes have a couple possible roles, close combat specialists or fusion pistol drive bys. These aren't as crucial in a CWE list as their roles can be done by Banshees, Fire Dragons, Scorpions, etc.
Skyweavers are a main reason people take Harlequins in CWE. Main role is a Haywire distribution unit, secondary role is a chaff killer, and they do both very well.
I'm not really sure what you are asking as far as most impactful smallest detachment. It depends on what you want. Maybe a patrol with a Shadowseer, a Troupe, and 6 Skyweavers? I usually go with a Battalion with 3 Troupes, 6 Skyweavers (at least), a Solitaire, a TM and Shadowseer, and a couple Starweavers, but that is around 1000pts, then add in a Drukhari battalion and whatever else (unless I'm going pure Quins). An Outrider with Skyweavers is also popular in the tournament scene.
Playing one 1000pt game against Harlequins probably isn't a good measure of what they can do. We said their amount of units was limited, their tactics are not limited nearly as much as you'd expect. I'd submit that Harlequins have more tactical options than many other Codexes that are more fleshed out. Orks for example have a ton of units, but tactically all anyone ever seems to do is a Loota blob with Gretchen and da Jump, along with some variation of 'run at them and hit them'.
That said, there are Harlequin players out there that are very straightforward and use point and click style of play. You may see other players that use genius tactics and leave their opponent with no good options and they've lost the game before they even knew what happened, and everything in between.
Guess I'm just saying they are what you make of them, they can be terrible or spectacular depending on who is using them.
Skyweavers are a main reason people take Harlequins in CWE. Main role is a Haywire distribution unit, secondary role is a chaff killer, and they do both very well.
Seconded.
This edition is a shooty one. Troupes are more a liability these days.
Skyweavers have fantastic mobility and weapons and are able to give each Aeldari army a tactical edge.
Sn33R wrote: Has anyone tried a whole skyweavers army?.. lol
The most you can get is 18 due to Ro3, which is roughly 900 points max. So no? That also need CPs and support to function well. I think you get diminishing returns once you hit 10-12 of them to be honest.
Sn33R wrote: Has anyone tried a whole skyweavers army?.. lol
The most you can get is 18 due to Ro3, which is roughly 900 points max. So no? That also need CPs and support to function well. I think you get diminishing returns once you hit 10-12 of them to be honest.
Agree, you dont need more than 12. They are good, but not army full good.
I tend to use them as a strict allied detachment. Shadowseer, two death jesters, a solitaire and 6 skyweaver w/ all haywire cannons and either 4 or 5 glaives
Sn33R wrote: Has anyone tried a whole skyweavers army?.. lol
The most you can get is 18 due to Ro3, which is roughly 900 points max. So no? That also need CPs and support to function well. I think you get diminishing returns once you hit 10-12 of them to be honest.
Agree, you dont need more than 12. They are good, but not army full good.
I am looking to build a all jet bike army. 3 detachments one of each kind of space elf.
Sn33R wrote: Has anyone tried a whole skyweavers army?.. lol
The most you can get is 18 due to Ro3, which is roughly 900 points max. So no? That also need CPs and support to function well. I think you get diminishing returns once you hit 10-12 of them to be honest.
Agree, you dont need more than 12. They are good, but not army full good.
I am looking to build a all jet bike army. 3 detachments one of each kind of space elf.
I did this in 7th when scatterbikes were amazing. I ran 6 reavers, 24 scatt bikes, and 4 skyweavers
daismith906 wrote: Anyone used rangers for an additional battalion alongside their clowns?
Thinking 3 units of 5 make good objective holders + in terrain with alaitoc very hard to shift
throw in a skyrunner farseer & warlock skyrunner
384pts & 5 command points
I play CWE battalion a lot of the time along side a large Vanguard of Quins. My CWE has 2x5 rangers and a 20man Guardian unit that DS's. With Skyweavers in front (and Shining Spears in front as well) my characters (DJ's) can hold objectives just fine, then with the 2 rangers, guardians, etc..
Character protection is very good for holding, and when they cant, well 20 guardians can.
I run harlies and craftworlds a lot, with a lot of different detachment combinations, and I have to say in my experience the craftworlds battalion with harlies outrider is the strongest.
I love my troupes, and if they get into combat they will blend just about anything, but it's a big if. The game atm definitely favours shooty armies and 3 troupes plus transports, plus character support, is a fairly big investment.
Having said that, 3x5 rangers plus farseer and warlock do work well with harlies, particularly if you have no death jesters to hold backfield objectives. Doom plus skyweavers is just nasty and with alaitoc they are really difficult to shift. I'd recommend considering some flyers as well though for some extra firepower.
When adding harlequins to cwe, is an outride w/ Shadowseer, solitaire, 1 unit of 6 weavers and 2 units of 3 or a vanguard w shadowseer, solitaire, 2 death jester and 1 unit of 6 weavers better? The rest of the army is pretty basic ynnari build. Yvraine, farseer on skyrunner, 2 units rangers 1 blob 20 guardians with platforms, dark reaper squads, and 2 squads 6 scatter laser bikes.
Amishprn86 wrote: Vanguard is better, DJ's are really cheap and Solitaires are really good, then you still have room, for 1 unit of Skyweavers
Oh yes, no matter what the solitaire would be brought. Outrighter or vanguard. I guess it all boils down to how many points I want to invest. I just have the mentality of I know the squad of 6 will be targeted hard, and if lose them that is it. Where as if I also have two small squads of 3 then they would pose just as much a threat but are harder to take down, so target saturation. I LOVE death jesters and I own two (I want the old sculpt as a third) but I just feel their mileage varies
Its one of the new Slaanesh models and bc the Solitaires wear "the mask of Slaanesh" and plays the role of it, i think its a cool concept model. I will get 1 for sure. Im not going to glue on the claws and i am going to cut the feet off for quin feet.
Quick question lads, can you combine the Heroes path Stratagem with Twighlight Pathways pyschic power for a potential first turn charge with a Shadowseer or Solitaire?
Elfric wrote: Quick question lads, can you combine the Heroes path Stratagem with Twighlight Pathways pyschic power for a potential first turn charge with a Shadowseer or Solitaire?
I'm looking for the faq that it was in, but they did FAQ that if you come on the table you can no longer move again. I am looking it up to make sure it doesnt say "Reinforcements"
Elfric wrote: Quick question lads, can you combine the Heroes path Stratagem with Twighlight Pathways pyschic power for a potential first turn charge with a Shadowseer or Solitaire?
It's much more useful to use it on a Starweaver to get the occupants into melta range
Elfric wrote: Quick question lads, can you combine the Heroes path Stratagem with Twighlight Pathways pyschic power for a potential first turn charge with a Shadowseer or Solitaire?
I'm looking for the faq that it was in, but they did FAQ that if you come on the table you can no longer move again. I am looking it up to make sure it doesnt say "Reinforcements"
I know you can't use this trick from deep striking, but Heroes Path can be used in any movement phase, at the start, then you redeploy them anywhere on the table at the end of that movement phase as long as they are not more than 9 inches. Seems a bit of a grey area, but potentially very effective if this is possible? Is this no different to moving, using "Da Jump", then charging with Orks?
Elfric wrote: Quick question lads, can you combine the Heroes path Stratagem with Twighlight Pathways pyschic power for a potential first turn charge with a Shadowseer or Solitaire?
It's much more useful to use it on a Starweaver to get the occupants into melta range
Yeah I know that, however I have a tournament next weekend (mono codex) and I am running my Quins as Dreaming Shadow. There are going to be a lot of Tau and Imperial Guard Gun Lines. The idea was to equip the Shadowseer with the starmist raiment, teleport her turn 1, use psychic power, charge, tie up two units as she will be immune to overwatch and then burn everyone else up the board ASAP.
I generally use Twilight Pathways on some Silent Shroud Skyweavers to accomplish the same thing. They hit harder, are tougher, and get to hit again with Cegorach's Jest when the enemy falls back. And you aren't sacrificing a Character and relic to stop a single shooting phase. It's CP expensive, but a single large unit of Skyweavers using Twilight Paths, Silken Knife, Prismatic Blur, Cegorach's Jest, and maybe Lightning Reflexes can practically occupy the attention of an entire gunline, at least enough to set up a killing blow on turn 2 with the rest of your army.
Creeping Dementia wrote: I generally use Twilight Pathways on some Silent Shroud Skyweavers to accomplish the same thing. They hit harder, are tougher, and get to hit again with Cegorach's Jest when the enemy falls back. And you aren't sacrificing a Character and relic to stop a single shooting phase. It's CP expensive, but a single large unit of Skyweavers using Twilight Paths, Silken Knife, Prismatic Blur, Cegorach's Jest, and maybe Lightning Reflexes can practically occupy the attention of an entire gunline, at least enough to set up a killing blow on turn 2 with the rest of your army.
Definitely done that in a Ynnariquin list with allarge 10-12 man unit of troupes as well. The troupes with fight twice / thrice, and all the movement can be very good at pinning units and tagging multiple units.
Harlequins sort of got better because of the flip belt nerf reversal. However, the Solitaire lost advance when he blitzes, and Eldar soup and Ynarri really got kicked in the balls. The Solitaire will be better at singling out enemy characters and juicy targets, but his reach won't be quite as good.
At least with the point increases to Castellans and capping their invuln at 4++ sort of helps alleviate the loss of allied Craftworld Psychers a little.
IMO Harlequins got a little better, but Eldar as a whole took a hit.
Harlequins sort of got better because of the flip belt nerf reversal. However, the Solitaire lost advance when he blitzes, and Eldar soup and Ynarri really got kicked in the balls. The Solitaire will be better at singling out enemy characters and juicy targets, but his reach won't be quite as good.
At least with the point increases to Castellans and capping their invuln at 4++ sort of helps alleviate the loss of allied Craftworld Psychers a little.
IMO Harlequins got a little better, but Eldar as a whole took a hit.
Makes ynnari skyweavers good. Cast ancestors grace for its guide like ability to Reroll 1, cast the melee doom. Shoot at knight then chargein. You still have the potential to down a knight in a single turn with a unit of 6. If you take an outrider detachment with 2 units of 3 and a unit of 6 you’ll for sure get it down.
Honestly it seems pretty simple to convert a Solitaire from a Troupe mini. The sprue has a Solitaire mask on it, the only hard part would be putting an Caress on the left arm (you'd have to chop up a couple arms but it's not that bad IMO). There's a skull mask as well, so with a spare shuriken cannon you could make a Death Jester from Troupes as well.
Honestly it seems pretty simple to convert a Solitaire from a Troupe mini. The sprue has a Solitaire mask on it, the only hard part would be putting an Caress on the left arm (you'd have to chop up a couple arms but it's not that bad IMO). There's a skull mask as well, so with a spare shuriken cannon you could make a Death Jester from Troupes as well.
The point of that new model is that the Solitaire is playing the role of "She who thirsts" so its models to look cool, i have 3 solitaires, i dont need one b.c i cant buy 1, i need this one b.c its Cool AF and fitting.
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Azuza001 wrote: I don't think we took that big of a hit. I love my solitare but I never really used it much. The other changes help us more than it hurts us.
Solitaire is a must for me, if i want to play Ynnari i'll take a 2nd detachment just for it.
I am considering using an auxillary support detachment for my 1000 point eldar list to include a bunch of Skyweavers. They are very potent in clearing infantry and shooting tanks.
Will the fact that I can't use any strategems or faction traits for them hurt me too much in the long run?
Barnie25 wrote: I am considering using an auxillary support detachment for my 1000 point eldar list to include a bunch of Skyweavers. They are very potent in clearing infantry and shooting tanks.
Will the fact that I can't use any strategems or faction traits for them hurt me too much in the long run?
Yes, there are some very good stratagems, you can make them 3++, you can have them Advance+shoot+charge, you can make them Shoot when they die, you can give then an additional -1 to hit.
The reason why they are so good isnt just b.c they shoot and melee, but they are almost unkillabe via shooting (MW's are their weakness), having -2 to hit, and a 3++ with 22" movement, shoot and charge is what makes them good. Taking them a generic units works, but they are much easier to be killed off.
Barnie25 wrote: Thanks for the input, might get them later then for a bigger game
I think they're still very good units even without the benefit of Doom. Agreed with Amishprn86 on just about everything he said. They're very powerful units that can fill a couple of roles very well with the use of stratagems. They can be used to take out any type of armor, clear chaff, can clear and hold an objective, great harassment units, can be great at kiting opponents out of position, can be serviceable shock troops, and can withstand a good amount of enemy firepower at - 2 and a 3++ with 3 wounds.
One of the best units Aeldari faction has access to IMO.
How do you use Twilight Pathways and Prismatic Blur? I heard someone say these aren't worth losing for Ynnari, but TP is very limited and PB protects one unit when you have many to choose from.
Twilight pathways is incredibly powerful. Shadowseer warlord with twilight pathways in a starweaver moves forward 22". Shadowseer jumps out. Shadowseer then casts twilight pathways on the starweaver that still has 5 fusion pistol harliquens in it. Starweaver ends its move 2" off the bow of a soon to be dead tank. Profit. Last game i used this trick to jump completly over my opponents line and ended up just an inch out from their warlord and nuked him dead t1 before he even saw it coming. Screening, its not only for the front of your force!
Thats the short and long of it.
As for prismatic blur i use that on a single squad of 6 skyweavers all with haywire cannons on them. They will be targeted so they need as much protection as they can get.
Yes i do. And they do amazing at it. I have 3 more starweavers with the same loadout also moving up. This means not only has my opponent seen what 1 can do they know 3 more and the 6 bikes are incoming. This is normally more than enough to throw my opponent into disarray and start over committing to killing them. Plus pop the -1 strat onto it so its -2 to hit, -2 and 4++ its gonna take a lot of firepower to kill unless your facing orks, then the default -1 is enough.
I run two shadowseers, 1 for slingshotting and 1 with the suit of hidden knives and the -1 to hit powers. I have killed an entire 30 ork blob with her in one game and a 10 ork nob squad in another just from her bouncing wounds back. She always gets in t2 thanks to twilight paths.
Also shards of light on the twilight paths one and dont forget their grenade launchers. Between the shards and a death jester you can put mortal wounds out easy.
I don't see how you could overcommit against 4 Starweavers with the same loadouts. Shoot the immediate threat, unless it has -2 to hit, then shoot the next threat.
Overcommit happens when 1 weaver is within 2" of your line but has -2 to hit but the rest are 20" away. The one 2" away can reach anything at that point but the others can only hit whats closest to them, hence my comment. It doesnt sound that big of a deal but all my games with them thats what seems to happen.
My experience with Harlequins is you commit Troupes to running all melee or all fusion.
If you're going for pure Melee then its Frozen Stars or Midnight Sorrow, if it's pure Fusion just stick 5 fusions in 6 man squads in Starweavers (Soaring Spite) for advance and firing fusion at full balistic.
You can't advance Harlequins and use their fusion pistols and you can't afford to sacrifice advancing just so you can shoot your piddly 6' weapons.
Sticking fusion and melee weapons on Troupes becomes really costly.
I wish there was a way of delivering 12 Man squad fully kitted out with melee reliably without getting blown off the board.
Dreaming Shadow sounds really good on paper, 50/50 chance to fire a pistol again but it's trusting to a dice roll. A ran my harlequins with this Masque form at a recent tournament and wow, was that ever a bad time for my dice to roll super cold on me. And lol, i know you can DS a Troupe blob, that's why I said a reliable delivery system. I've learned to never use DS'ing for close combat, use it for grabbing an objective or dropping some horrendous fire power down.
You know if Harlequins had a stratagem where they could charge on 3D6 that would be amazing.
I really do like Curtain Fall relic, it's an amazing relic especially when combined with Example Made and Shrieking Doom, it's very powerful.
@Galef yes my mistake I have edited my last post, but Quins with Soaring Spite in clown cars loaded to the brim with fusion is what you should run if you want drive by shooting Clowns.
Yeah soaring spite is my main force with a shadowseer and 3 death jesters in a small dreaming shadow for curtainfall. That combo is super nasty, if a bit cp intensive. I really feel harliquens work well as a main force but work best mixed with dark eldar or craftworlds.
Elfric wrote: Dreaming Shadow sounds really good on paper, 50/50 chance to fire a pistol again but it's trusting to a dice roll. A ran my harlequins with this Masque form at a recent tournament and wow, was that ever a bad time for my dice to roll super cold on me. And lol, i know you can DS a Troupe blob, that's why I said a reliable delivery system. I've learned to never use DS'ing for close combat, use it for grabbing an objective or dropping some horrendous fire power down.
It also depends how many guns you have, remember it also works on bikes and vehicles, if you are playing 3-4 vehicles, lots of bikes, and DJ's it might be better for you, now you are not talking about a 50/50 on 5-10 FP's you are talking about a 50/50 on 70% of your units, 4 vehicles, 2 shoot, 20 FP's, 10 shoot, 3 DJ's 1-2 shoot, 6-12 Skyweavers = 2-6 shoot. That adds up. Also the stratagem and the relic are good too.
I honestly play with 2, i never go Mono. I will play Dreaming Shadow and Midnight Shadow, the massive melee mobility is more important to me, especially now we got Flip belts back and Rsising Crescendo lets you fallback and charge, Fallback +D6 and 6" consolidate is insane, especially on a Solitaire.
My Normal list is (non-ynnari, pure mono quins, i do some events that are mono faction)
13CP start, -3CP relics, -1 CP DSing, 9-10 CP, vs Knights CP used on Skyweavers, vs Hordes used on DJ's and Troupes.
I have played Soaring Spite and Frozen stars a lot, honestly, You can even take 1 Patrol for stratagems, DJ, Solitaire, a TM, a Troupe and get all 4 stratagems you want. Then Soaring Spite or Frozen Stars for the rest. I just dont like that b.c lack of CP.
karandrasss wrote: How do you use Twilight Pathways and Prismatic Blur? I heard someone say these aren't worth losing for Ynnari, but TP is very limited and PB protects one unit when you have many to choose from.
TP is limited in range, but Skyweavers have big bases so it isn't hard to Daisy chain back to him to get the power off. Or use the Soaring spite WL trait, I usually use player of twilight instead because we always need more CPs.
Prismatic Blur is also important. Sure it only affects one unit, but Quins have limited units to take full advantage of good strats. Other strats I wouldn't want to lose to go Ynarri are; Cegorachs Jest, Ishas Weeping, Hundred swords of Vaul, Dramatic Entrance, Torments of the Fiery Pit, Skystride and Silken Knife.
And a Solitaire, I love my Solitaire too much to go Ynarri.
Elfric wrote: Dreaming Shadow sounds really good on paper, 50/50 chance to fire a pistol again but it's trusting to a dice roll. A ran my harlequins with this Masque form at a recent tournament and wow, was that ever a bad time for my dice to roll super cold on me. And lol, i know you can DS a Troupe blob, that's why I said a reliable delivery system. I've learned to never use DS'ing for close combat, use it for grabbing an objective or dropping some horrendous fire power down.
It also depends how many guns you have, remember it also works on bikes and vehicles, if you are playing 3-4 vehicles, lots of bikes, and DJ's it might be better for you, now you are not talking about a 50/50 on 5-10 FP's you are talking about a 50/50 on 70% of your units, 4 vehicles, 2 shoot, 20 FP's, 10 shoot, 3 DJ's 1-2 shoot, 6-12 Skyweavers = 2-6 shoot. That adds up. Also the stratagem and the relic are good too.
I honestly play with 2, i never go Mono. I will play Dreaming Shadow and Midnight Shadow, the massive melee mobility is more important to me, especially now we got Flip belts back and Rsising Crescendo lets you fallback and charge, Fallback +D6 and 6" consolidate is insane, especially on a Solitaire.
My Normal list is (non-ynnari, pure mono quins, i do some events that are mono faction)
13CP start, -3CP relics, -1 CP DSing, 9-10 CP, vs Knights CP used on Skyweavers, vs Hordes used on DJ's and Troupes.
I have played Soaring Spite and Frozen stars a lot, honestly, You can even take 1 Patrol for stratagems, DJ, Solitaire, a TM, a Troupe and get all 4 stratagems you want. Then Soaring Spite or Frozen Stars for the rest. I just dont like that b.c lack of CP.
Hmm I think I need more Troupes as I have only 20 harlequins troupes in my collection. This list was similar to mine except i put all the fusion and melee into all the harlequins. Unfortunately I only have about 1900 pts worth of Harlequins and I was running them in a 1750 mono dex tournament. I usually run Dark Eldar with great success and I wanted to try Harlequins and wow did I have issues.
My first game was against a Tau gunline (this player ended up winning the tournament) and I was actually winning for the first 3 rounds but weight of fire just slowly started annihilating me and I lost here in the 4th and 5th round. Second game was against 4 knights which i did really bad in, I destroyed 1 knight and then got tabled turn 2. 3rd game was against Orks which I very narrowly lost by 1 point, but I just couldn't kill his army quick enough and the Ork player literally won on weight of models. Not a fun day all in all. I basically ran a Shadowseer, Troupe Master, 3 Deathjesters (one with relic), 4 units of 5 Troupes, a solitaire, 6 skyweavers and 4 transports. Really small list.
It does make me want to run back to Dark Eldar but I refuse to believe Harlequins are a mid tier army. I think I need more clowns and prehaps more Skyweavers.
EDIT: That is a very nice list you have there. I do think Frozen Stars and Soaring Spite are the most powerful Masque forms, however I also love Midnight Sorrow and their huge mobility.
I wish there was a way of delivering 12 Man squad fully kitted out with melee reliably without getting blown off the board.
Go ynarri and use DE's Tantalus?
Cant, Tantalus only transport Drukhari. Its either DS or run them up the table.
Ah... my mistake, I thought the new Ynarri allows you to share vehicles from all factions. Don't mind me...
I would love that, my 12 man Quin Troupe units would take a Wave Serpent in a heartbeat! Every list would start with 3x 12 Quins, 6 melee weapons, Wave Serpent.
Azuza001 wrote: Twilight pathways is incredibly powerful. Shadowseer warlord with twilight pathways in a starweaver moves forward 22". Shadowseer jumps out. Shadowseer then casts twilight pathways on the starweaver that still has 5 fusion pistol harliquens in it. Starweaver ends its move 2" off the bow of a soon to be dead tank. Profit. Last game i used this trick to jump completly over my opponents line and ended up just an inch out from their warlord and nuked him dead t1 before he even saw it coming. Screening, its not only for the front of your force!
Thats the short and long of it.
As for prismatic blur i use that on a single squad of 6 skyweavers all with haywire cannons on them. They will be targeted so they need as much protection as they can get.
You cheated your opponent then. You can only disembark at the beginning of the movement phase before the transport moves. So, doing this correctly, you would move up and then be a sitting duck for a turn before you got out next turn.
Azuza001 wrote: Twilight pathways is incredibly powerful. Shadowseer warlord with twilight pathways in a starweaver moves forward 22". Shadowseer jumps out. Shadowseer then casts twilight pathways on the starweaver that still has 5 fusion pistol harliquens in it. Starweaver ends its move 2" off the bow of a soon to be dead tank. Profit. Last game i used this trick to jump completly over my opponents line and ended up just an inch out from their warlord and nuked him dead t1 before he even saw it coming. Screening, its not only for the front of your force!
Thats the short and long of it.
As for prismatic blur i use that on a single squad of 6 skyweavers all with haywire cannons on them. They will be targeted so they need as much protection as they can get.
You cheated your opponent then. You can only disembark at the beginning of the movement phase before the transport moves. So, doing this correctly, you would move up and then be a sitting duck for a turn before you got out next turn.
The Soaring Spite warlord trait lets you disembark after a transport has moved.
Azuza001 wrote: Twilight pathways is incredibly powerful. Shadowseer warlord with twilight pathways in a starweaver moves forward 22". Shadowseer jumps out. Shadowseer then casts twilight pathways on the starweaver that still has 5 fusion pistol harliquens in it. Starweaver ends its move 2" off the bow of a soon to be dead tank. Profit. Last game i used this trick to jump completly over my opponents line and ended up just an inch out from their warlord and nuked him dead t1 before he even saw it coming. Screening, its not only for the front of your force!
Thats the short and long of it.
As for prismatic blur i use that on a single squad of 6 skyweavers all with haywire cannons on them. They will be targeted so they need as much protection as they can get.
You cheated your opponent then. You can only disembark at the beginning of the movement phase before the transport moves. So, doing this correctly, you would move up and then be a sitting duck for a turn before you got out next turn.
The Soaring Spite warlord trait lets you disembark after a transport has moved.
karandrasss wrote: How do you use Twilight Pathways and Prismatic Blur? I heard someone say these aren't worth losing for Ynnari, but TP is very limited and PB protects one unit when you have many to choose from.
TP is limited in range, but Skyweavers have big bases so it isn't hard to Daisy chain back to him to get the power off. Or use the Soaring spite WL trait, I usually use player of twilight instead because we always need more CPs.
Prismatic Blur is also important. Sure it only affects one unit, but Quins have limited units to take full advantage of good strats. Other strats I wouldn't want to lose to go Ynarri are; Cegorachs Jest, Ishas Weeping, Hundred swords of Vaul, Dramatic Entrance, Torments of the Fiery Pit, Skystride and Silken Knife.
And a Solitaire, I love my Solitaire too much to go Ynarri.
You use TP on Skyweavers? I thought that was for your Troupes to get closer faster. Never used it myself.
karandrasss wrote: How do you use Twilight Pathways and Prismatic Blur? I heard someone say these aren't worth losing for Ynnari, but TP is very limited and PB protects one unit when you have many to choose from.
TP is limited in range, but Skyweavers have big bases so it isn't hard to Daisy chain back to him to get the power off. Or use the Soaring spite WL trait, I usually use player of twilight instead because we always need more CPs.
Prismatic Blur is also important. Sure it only affects one unit, but Quins have limited units to take full advantage of good strats. Other strats I wouldn't want to lose to go Ynarri are; Cegorachs Jest, Ishas Weeping, Hundred swords of Vaul, Dramatic Entrance, Torments of the Fiery Pit, Skystride and Silken Knife.
And a Solitaire, I love my Solitaire too much to go Ynarri.
You use TP on Skyweavers? I thought that was for your Troupes to get closer faster. Never used it myself.
Yeah sometimes I'll use TP on Skyweavers, other times on a large troupe, depends on the situation. Opponents often don't expect Skyweavers to move/charge 40-50+ inches in the first turn. So if they leave a tank commander or Knight with inadequate screening then getting back there and charging in to tag them can be game changing, especially when they fall back on their turn and get blown up by Cegorachs Jest.
What people's thoughts on a relatively choppy harlequin battalion supported by a shooty craftworld eldar battalion?
My initial thoughts are at least 3 troupes in starweavers, and maybe a large foot troop with shadowseers a troop master, and a unit of 6? bikes.
The eldar component would be units of dire avengers with asurman, a ton of swooping hawks (40 shots per squad!), and some fire prisms.
I haven't seen how this all fits in 2k, if it even would, and as I don't play harlequins or eldar have no idea if this list would even be viable. Its just a random army idea...one that I've been warming up to recently.
Heafstaag wrote: What people's thoughts on a relatively choppy harlequin battalion supported by a shooty craftworld eldar battalion?
My initial thoughts are at least 3 troupes in starweavers, and maybe a large foot troop with shadowseers a troop master, and a unit of 6? bikes.
The eldar component would be units of dire avengers with asurman, a ton of swooping hawks (40 shots per squad!), and some fire prisms.
I haven't seen how this all fits in 2k, if it even would, and as I don't play harlequins or eldar have no idea if this list would even be viable. Its just a random army idea...one that I've been warming up to recently.
You might be a little ambitious with how much you think you can get into 2000 points, based on your criteria this is what I came up with. Everything you wanted would probably be more like 2500 points.
As far as a concept as a whole, it's not a bad thought, Craftworld generally shoot better and Quins generally are better at melee. Not sure I'd go with Asurman and DAs though. I'd probably end up going Siam Hann with Scatterbikes and rangers instead, but that probably has more to do with my personal preferences than anything else.
When i mix harlies with craftworld i go pure firepower. 3 starweavers with 5 man fusion troupes in them, a warlord shadoeseer with jump out after vehicle moves trait, troupe master with additional movement relic, and 6 bikes with haywire cannons and zephyrglaives.
With the left over points i focus on things craftworld could do better at a cheaper price. 20 man guardian blob to deep strike in (that puts out a ton of firepower at 12"), dire avengers for cheap objective grabbing, swooping hawks for additional chaff clearing for cheap, banshees for deep stike and charge (bel-tan gives court of the young king for an additional 2" to your charge, totally worth it), and of course psycic support from farseers and warlocks. Add a small squad of dark reapers in for a bit of additional support if you can afford it, call it a day.
This is the list i've come up with, and I really couldn't fit everything I wanted! Anyways, here it is:
Eldar Battalion:
Asurmen
Farseer
3x5 dire avenger squads
3x6 swooping hawks (including the exarch with the str 5 gun and the power sword)
2 fire prisms
Harlequin Battalion:
Troupe master with power sword
Shadowseer
2x5 troops where 4 guys will have a special weapon
a 9 strong troupe where 5 have special weapons
5 skyweavers with glaives and haywire
2 star weavers
Overall the list looks fun, but kinda...meh. In my head there are like 20-30 harlies, plus 20 to 30 dire avengers, with 30 swooping hawks.
But it doesn't fit.
I'll tinker around with it it. I wanted 2 fire prisms for some ranged anti tank. The avengers and swooping hawks provide decent anti infantry, and the harlies can fight.
Why are you doing a 9 troupe squad? That just seems like a waste to me, you have to dedicate the shadowseer to them just to make them fast enough to keep up with the starweavers and even then they could easily get blown away by las gun / bolter fire. I find my harliquens are next to unstoppable until they get out of the starweaver.
Even if you are set on cc harlies (which can be amazing) i would still do 2x5 and 1x6 and 3 weavers (room in the other 2 are for your chrs).
Azuza001 wrote: Why are you doing a 9 troupe squad? That just seems like a waste to me, you have to dedicate the shadowseer to them just to make them fast enough to keep up with the starweavers and even then they could easily get blown away by las gun / bolter fire. I find my harliquens are next to unstoppable until they get out of the starweaver.
Even if you are set on cc harlies (which can be amazing) i would still do 2x5 and 1x6 and 3 weavers (room in the other 2 are for your chrs).
Well if playing ITC you just deploy in Magic boxes, you can also DS them for later in game to keep them protected, having 1 larger squad isnt a bad thing and works well in some game modes.
I imagine this is a foolish question but can Troupes work on foot?
I've been considering adding a small(Ynnari) Harlequin detachment to my DE army, but for reasons of fluff I really don't want them to be in a transport.
I can include a Shadowseer for the -1 to wound aura if it helps.
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: I imagine this is a foolish question but can Troupes work on foot?
I've been considering adding a small(Ynnari) Harlequin detachment to my DE army, but for reasons of fluff I really don't want them to be in a transport.
I can include a Shadowseer for the -1 to wound aura if it helps.
Depends on their role.
I can say 'a' foot troupe can work. Usually a larger group (10-12), buffed with a Shadowseer for negatives to hit and wound, plus Twilight Pathways. Multiple units like this do not work well due to restrictions on psychic powers. You have to be smart on how you use them and not be afraid to just hide the unit out of LOS until the right time though, even with buffs they'll get shot to hell by small arms fire. And don't load too many upgrades on them, keep them cheap-ish, too many players double the cost of single wound Harlequins by taking too many upgrades. A barebones Player is an ok value for the points (13), a 27 point Player with a Carress and Fusion may not be if the army is full of them; the 27pt Player dies just as easily as the 13pt Player, so be sure to have ablative wounds before you have to remove the expensive guys.
Also when running Mono-Quins it can 'work' to have a couple smaller units with minimal upgrades to sit in the backfield for objectives while everything else does their thing. Not exactly the best unit for the job, but if you want to be considered a Harlequin player (rather than Aeldari soup player) in the ITC, then it's all you've got.
All that said, why Ynarri? Compared to the Harlequin strats and everything, Ynarri is a pretty lame duck. I guess if it's for fluff then sure, otherwise Codex Quins win out.
I can say 'a' foot troupe can work. Usually a larger group (10-12), buffed with a Shadowseer for negatives to hit and wound, plus Twilight Pathways. Multiple units like this do not work well due to restrictions on psychic powers.
Ah, not looking good for my idea then.
As I mentioned, I was hoping to use Ynnari, so no Twilight Pathways or other Harlequin spells, I fear.
In terms of the Troup, I was hoping to use 3 small units (rather than 1 large one) in order to fill out a Battalion.
Their role was a mix of things:
- Fluff (they'd be refluffed as daemons but that's a story for another time )
- CPs via the Battalion
- Attacking weaker enemies, tying up vehicles, maybe trying to steal an enemy objective
- Providing more teleportation options/locations for the Yncarne
Creeping Dementia wrote: And don't load too many upgrades on them, keep them cheap-ish, too many players double the cost of single wound Harlequins by taking too many upgrades. A barebones Player is an ok value for the points (13), a 27 point Player with a Carress and Fusion may not be if the army is full of them; the 27pt Player dies just as easily as the 13pt Player, so be sure to have ablative wounds before you have to remove the expensive guys.
Regarding upgrades, the idea I had was that each 5-man squad would have a single leader model who'd carry a Fusion Pistol and a Caress, whilst the rest of the squad would be left naked.
Also when running Mono-Quins it can 'work' to have a couple smaller units with minimal upgrades to sit in the backfield for objectives while everything else does their thing. Not exactly the best unit for the job, but if you want to be considered a Harlequin player (rather than Aeldari soup player) in the ITC, then it's all you've got.
Nah, it's okay. I was only intending to use Harlequins to supplement a larger DE force.
Creeping Dementia wrote: All that said, why Ynarri? Compared to the Harlequin strats and everything, Ynarri is a pretty lame duck. I guess if it's for fluff then sure, otherwise Codex Quins win out.
Flavour and nothing else. The Ynnari powers and such especially are just much closer to the theme I was going for.
Regardless, it seems like this was a bad idea. Thanks for all your help.
The 3 upgraded squads all have starweavers, the standard squads either sit on objectives or deep strike.
I know troupes aren't the most competitive but I do love em, plus I find harlies so CP hungry I need 2 battalions.
I'm wondering if there's a more efficient way of running them though? I'm considering upgrading a 4th squad and getting another starweaver, or maybe mix them up and have a couple naked guys in each unit, for ablative wounds?
I'm not running soaring spite for drivebys btw, usually frozen stars or silent shroud. The rest of the army is the usual stuff, plus 12 skyweavers.
I run mine either only Melee weapons or only Fusion pistols, IMO making them dedicated to 1 role is better, and you dont lose as much if they die. 4/1 is a great option and it makes them less than 100pts per 5. I used to do 4//4/1 but they tend to die quicker it feels and i lose more much easier, its a 28pts difference, over 6 units thats 168pts. so now you have more points for other units as well. Given with also have Skyweavers, we dont really need that much FP for anti-tank, they are mostly for IG tanks and back up damage i feel.
With that said, i guess it depends more on if you take 6 or 12 skyweavers, i took 6 at a local tournament with only 4 FP's and i went 2-1 with a change to take 1st (i lost to bad dice rolls, the whole event even said so, i roled over 80% my dice as 1-'s he was rolling 80% as 5-6's, he rolled box cars for his 2d6 shots 4 out of 5 times, the other 2 knights rolled a 9 or 10 every turn, i lost my -2/3++ skyweavers in 1 turn due to not making a save, and i still adid very good against him)... but the point is i didnt need that many FP's. I feel FP's are a bit over rated.
Im honestly thinking about taking only 2x4 (or 2x5) FP's in stead of 3x4, b.c my TM's also has them.
I always run mine as 5x fusion pistols which is over kill but if I want it dead it has to be dead). Or I run them 5x embrace if I'm going close combat.
Yeh I know, that would be cool, it's just the points.
I need 6 troupe squads to make up the 2 battalions so I'd have to start dropping skyweavers to get the points and I'm already down to 10.
Maybe if I went with 9 skyweavers, 3x3, I might be able to squeeze in 1 squad of 10 or 12 troupes.
My meta is quite knight and tank heavy ATM so I feel 9 is the minimum I'd be comfortable with really.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a side note, has anyone had any success with suit of hidden knives?
I have a regular opponent who runs a lot of wolfen and thunder wolves, all with storm shields and hammers, and they're a nightmare to deal with in combat.
Problem is, to pull it off you really need to cast the 2 psychic powers to get up to -3 to hit, but you have to commit before you roll for them so it's risky.
530pts of Troupes, you can make it 28pts cheaper by doing 4 weapons per rather than 5.
I've found the extra troupes with no weapons are still very viable, use them for wrapping, objectives, stopping OW when starweavers/skyweavers cant. I also dont use my troupes as much as my Skyweavers and characters tho.
My 2x6 Skyweavers are now 6 HWC and only 3 Zephyr Glaives, making them 288pts over 306 and honestly 3 of them is enough, they are not there for melee dps anyways. I dont believe skyweavers should be in smaller units.
I was taking less troupes (1 battalion) and 2 DJ's, i like the DJ, they are fine at what they do, but +5 CP to replace them with troupes is a win for me.
I only play Soaring spite, mostly b.c i love the movement abilities of it, i dont need more attacks on my troupes as i play more of a touch and go style, hordes dont give me a problem either (like nids or Orks) i actually do better against them oddly, get a unit down to 15ish and the troupes will finish it off easily.
I always take 6 Bikes, they are IMO too good not to max them out.
I really miss of Ynnari b.c i could mix the traits for stratagems, having a Vanguard Ynnari detachment for DJ's, Yvarine, Solitaire and 1 of my unit of Skyweavers was my go to every game.
But with that gone now, i'll most likely only do Soaring Spite, like i said i only like it b.c i need the movement and still be at 100% output, i relay on the 22" movements to win my games.
Amishprn86 wrote: I really miss of Ynnari b.c i could mix the traits for stratagems, having a Vanguard Ynnari detachment for DJ's, Yvarine, Solitaire and 1 of my unit of Skyweavers was my go to every game.
But with that gone now, i'll most likely only do Soaring Spite, like i said i only like it b.c i need the movement and still be at 100% output, i relay on the 22" movements to win my games.
I agree. The sweet 3++ durability with no negative modifiers to hit is so key. In my competitive list, I typically run 2 squads of 6 bikes. 1 squad I play cagey and keep them at max range to plink at armor or screens early on and then fire and fade out of LOS or in a position that will compromise my opponent's board control if they want to get at them. The other squad is typically PB'd with the 3++ and I will often use the LFR for -2 to hit.
In addition to those two units, I will have 2 squads of 3 Talos so there's a lot of tough, hard to remove units on the board that forces difficult decisions. If you go after the bikes, the Talos typically blender the opponent and get stronger as the game goes on due to PfP. If you go after the Talos, the bikes are typically wreaking havoc all over the place capping objectives and removing big threats.
I've been doing pure harlequins lately. I've done 2 events, 5th and 4th, but i was 2-1 both events. Do to how it works having the most points i'm on top table everytime then i always get unlucky for top tables (Matchups i can win easily, but i always had bad deployment map, dont go first, etc..)
Doing a 3rd this weekend, this time tho i'm taking out the 2 DJ's, 3 Voidweavers, and 3 Starweavers (I was playing with 12 vehicles, its very fun) for 2 battalions and 2x6 bikes. Tho i play 12 vehicles and 6 characters really well (its what im used to, i won an event at the start of 8th vs Stormraven spam doing that very same thing, but it was 9 voidweavers, cant do that anymore), i wont be able to get a practice game in before, so IDK how well i will do with 2x6 skyweavers, only 4 starweavers and 4 characters vs 6.
I know quite the right place, but how do Ynarri Quins stack up against pathways? Seems like the Bikes, Troupes (CC) and Troupe Master with Hungering Blade has some potential. Especially the re-roll 1's to hit for Bikes
Ynnari quins is the same as Aeldari Quins, the other 2 main factions can do what we do but better, that doesnt mean we still cant do it and do it well.
Yes Ynnari focus on melee and bikes/characters are the best uses for Ynnari, so you for sure want a TM with Hungering Blade and some Bikes.
Some combos for characters
TM with Hungering Blade with Warden of Souls (take stratagemf or 2nd WL trait for this) +1 attack and Str while under Soulburst, giving you +4 str and +1 attack, (Str 7, 6 attacks) this is really good.
Shadowseer with Lord of Rebirth and Mirrorgave (your actual WL) This makes him -1 to be hit, -1 to be wound, 5++ and regains 1 wound, snipers wont be able to kill him most likely. Very hard to kill.
Another thing you can do is Corag Hai's Locket, you have to finish off a unit, but a TM with a Caress and WL traitWarden of Souls means you are S6 -2 re-roll wounds 6 attacks hitting on 2+, you can easily kill a 5 man unit to gain +1 attack and movement, add a FP and try to get the last wound off on a unit within 6" to try to double tap the relic.
To note: I dont like Ynnari Harlequins at all, most of the "good" stratagems we already do, we can advance + charge, we can fallback and charge or shoot and charge, we can re-roll wounds already do to the TM's aura. Ynnarid oesnt give us anything other than fight first and +1 to hit with the removal of better stratagems and powers.
Shadowseer with Lord of Rebirth and Mirrorgave (your actual WL)
This makes him -1 to be hit, -1 to be wound, 5++ and regains 1 wound, snipers wont be able to kill him most likely. Very hard to kill.
Out of interest, would you send him into melee at all, or are his defence purely as protection from Snipers and the like?
To note: I dont like Ynnari Harlequins at all, most of the "good" stratagems we already do, we can advance + charge, we can fallback and charge or shoot and charge, we can re-roll wounds already do to the TM's aura. Ynnarid oesnt give us anything other than fight first and +1 to hit with the removal of better stratagems and powers.
It really saddens me that Ynnari have 0 movement abilities, in spite of mobility supposedly being one of their core skills.
That said, the thing I dislike most about Ynnari Harlequins is the same thing I dislike about every bloody Ynnari army - the mandatory Ynnari character. If I want a Troupe Master (to make use of the Hungering Blade) and a Shadowseer (as Warlord and for support spells), then I'm limited to a Battalion or a Supreme Command Detachment. The former requires me to take 3 troop choices, none of which I actually want, and the latter locks me out of the all-important Skyweavers.
Quick question (apologies if I've been a bit thick here)
I'm going to be fighting a couple of Chaos armies soon and was thinking of taking the Midnight Sorrow Nemesis of the Damned Warlord trait (6 to hit causes two hits and +1 to hit against Chaos).
Do those two powers stack? I.E - if I roll a 5 against chaos does it cause two hits due to the plus 1?
I saw a comment online which said since the last FAQ we can't do a second Prismatic Blur after advancing with Twilight Pathways any more. I couldn't see this in our FAQ or the main one, have I just missed it?
Edit: TopperHarley, yes they stack, because it's not 'unmodified rolls of 6', it's just '6+', so agsinst Chaos 5s becomes 6s and score 2 hits, and 6s become 7s and also score 2 hits.
Twilight Pathways wrote: I saw a comment online which said since the last FAQ we can't do a second Prismatic Blur after advancing with Twilight Pathways any more. I couldn't see this in our FAQ or the main one, have I just missed it?
Edit: TopperHarley, yes they stack, because it's not 'unmodified rolls of 6', it's just '6+', so agsinst Chaos 5s becomes 6s and score 2 hits, and 6s become 7s and also score 2 hits.
Q: Are you able to Advance or Fall Back in a different phase
when moving ‘as if it were the Movement phase’ through an
ability, Relic, Stratagem etc.?
A: Unless stated otherwise, yes. Note that if you do
Advance, and the unit has already Advanced this turn,
you should roll the dice again to see how much further
the unit moves (i.e. do not use the same roll made when
the unit first Advanced this turn).
Twilight Pathways wrote: I saw a comment online which said since the last FAQ we can't do a second Prismatic Blur after advancing with Twilight Pathways any more. I couldn't see this in our FAQ or the main one, have I just missed it?
Edit: TopperHarley, yes they stack, because it's not 'unmodified rolls of 6', it's just '6+', so agsinst Chaos 5s becomes 6s and score 2 hits, and 6s become 7s and also score 2 hits.
Q: Are you able to Advance or Fall Back in a different phase
when moving ‘as if it were the Movement phase’ through an
ability, Relic, Stratagem etc.?
A: Unless stated otherwise, yes. Note that if you do
Advance, and the unit has already Advanced this turn,
you should roll the dice again to see how much further
the unit moves (i.e. do not use the same roll made when
the unit first Advanced this turn).
I believe this entry in the big FAQ disallows that as the stratagems must be used in a specific phase.
Q: When a rule allows a model or unit to take an action (move,
shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power)
outside of the normal turn sequence, and that rule explicitly
mentions to make that action as if it were a different phase of the
turn structure to the current one, e.g. ‘That unit can shoot as if it
were the Shooting phase’, do rules that are normally used during
that phase (in the example this would be the Shooting phase) take
effect? Is the same true of Overwatch attacks?
A: With the exception of Stratagems, all rules (e.g.
abilities, Warlord Traits, psychic powers etc.) that would
apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking
place ‘as if it were that phase’. However, if a Stratagem
specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then
it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a
Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting
phase’ to affect a unit that is Shooting ‘as if it were
the Shooting phase’). For the purposes of this FAQ,
Overwatch attacks are not considered to be attacks made
as if it were your Shooting phase.
Ladies and gentlemen, our tables are going to soon be flush with primaris and space marine models. Can we take this opportunity to discuss the best load outs for troupes and general tactics against them?
My personal favourite was using cegorach's rose on a solitaire. Incredible primaris blender, but never survives the next shooting phase.
Fighting against primaris, kisses or caress? The troupe master is key I think, but as a support character for the buff aura
I dont think we will see so many primaris as we will drop pod dev's and veterans, and vehicles.
I really didnt want to ally with my quins, but i might have to against marines now and drop pod spam for cheap bubble wrap, Kabals being 6pts, a battalion with 2 succubus for 190pts might be a must.
To add: Yes we will for sure see Primaris, but they are about the same as they are now, good at shooting, yes they are able to melee this time around, but Primaris are not really good at melee, every unit we charge that is 5man will die in melee for the most part.
As for Primaris goes, i'm more worried about their vehicles, with skyweavers, 1 or 2 fusion boats should do the trick, the new Impulsor is really freaking good, expect to see a few
Hi, after much meddling in other system Im returning to WH40K and decided to start Harlies... I played IG, Night Lords (it hurt) and recently Necrons, but decided to try something semi-competetive (my other list were more fluffy ones).
I wanted to ask, is it necessary to add support from Eldar or Drukhari? Im inclined to the second, but Im still not sure. Was thinking about Kabalite Warriors as cheap screening and Razorwings.... But maybe my Players will be enough? Thanks for any input in advance
For Semi comp? No, not at all. But they will for sure make you "more comp" that doesnt mean you cant win, i am on top tables as pure quins in a few local tournaments.
You will for sure really want to make sure you have a least 6 skyweavers, a shadowseer, and Solitaire to start with no matter what for anything comp. You can get away with Starweaver spam (As i have in the past for comp games, 12 of them) but thats a completely different play style meant to stop ITC points and gain them via hold more/bonus and only give up 2 secondaries while able to take all 3 secondaries (like bel, recon, engineer, etc..).
After you get your 6 Bikes, there are 2 ways to build a generic comp list, 1 more unit of bikes, or 2 battalions (You can also do character heavy lists, but those have died down a lot b.c of new assassins rules, for CP and 85pts reinforcements they willa l ways pick anti-character and kill 1 a turn with head shots).
For the Bikes, i have 12 in total, but only 6 has weapons, that way i have options.
To win with harlequins at least for me, its completely down to timing on when and where to engage, we have the movement to stop a lot of units from alpha striking us (Like Taus 30" shooting, or IG spam, Smash Captains, Shield Captains, etc..) so we can use the terrain much more effectively as well. If you are not using the terrain and timing your priority of attacks correctly then you are going to get hit HARD, we can not take a hit, sure we have -1/-2 to hit and 4++, but we are a very low wound count army, a triple knight army going first can in theory table you if deployed in the open.
You will for sure really want to make sure you have a least 6 skyweavers, a shadowseer, and Solitaire to start with no matter what for anything comp. You can get away with Starweaver spam (As i have in the past for comp games, 12 of them) but thats a completely different play style meant to stop ITC points and gain them via hold more/bonus and only give up 2 secondaries while able to take all 3 secondaries (like bel, recon, engineer, etc..).
I am storting with harlies as well. How do you use your solitaire during your games??
You will for sure really want to make sure you have a least 6 skyweavers, a shadowseer, and Solitaire to start with no matter what for anything comp. You can get away with Starweaver spam (As i have in the past for comp games, 12 of them) but thats a completely different play style meant to stop ITC points and gain them via hold more/bonus and only give up 2 secondaries while able to take all 3 secondaries (like bel, recon, engineer, etc..).
I am storting with harlies as well. How do you use your solitaire during your games??
Its a great anti-infantry stalker, with 12+2D6 movement you can jump over screens and hit key targets, going through walls, etc.. fight fight twice, re-roll wounds, hitting on 2+, and can fight again if you take him in Midnight when dies in melee. He can either be a great tool or a great distraction. You can also use Heroes Path, which can get you more points to win the game. The key thin is, he is a character, where troupes will do more damage, but they can be shoot off 100x easier.
Amishprn86 wrote: For Semi comp? No, not at all. But they will for sure make you "more comp" that doesnt mean you cant win, i am on top tables as pure quins in a few local tournaments.
You will for sure really want to make sure you have a least 6 skyweavers, a shadowseer, and Solitaire to start with no matter what for anything comp. You can get away with Starweaver spam (As i have in the past for comp games, 12 of them) but thats a completely different play style meant to stop ITC points and gain them via hold more/bonus and only give up 2 secondaries while able to take all 3 secondaries (like bel, recon, engineer, etc..).
After you get your 6 Bikes, there are 2 ways to build a generic comp list, 1 more unit of bikes, or 2 battalions (You can also do character heavy lists, but those have died down a lot b.c of new assassins rules, for CP and 85pts reinforcements they willa l ways pick anti-character and kill 1 a turn with head shots).
For the Bikes, i have 12 in total, but only 6 has weapons, that way i have options.
To win with harlequins at least for me, its completely down to timing on when and where to engage, we have the movement to stop a lot of units from alpha striking us (Like Taus 30" shooting, or IG spam, Smash Captains, Shield Captains, etc..) so we can use the terrain much more effectively as well. If you are not using the terrain and timing your priority of attacks correctly then you are going to get hit HARD, we can not take a hit, sure we have -1/-2 to hit and 4++, but we are a very low wound count army, a triple knight army going first can in theory table you if deployed in the open.
Thanks, TBH, Im stuck at Drukhari question...
My 2000pts list is
Shadowseer
2x Troupe Master
3x Troupe with Starweaver (3 Fusion pistols, all caresses)
Solitaire
2x6 Skyweavers (glaive, haywire)
Archon
2x5 Kabalites
3x Ravager with 3x Disintegrator Cannon
Aaaand Im lost... Ravagers with Cannons looks like great anti-infantry butcher machines...and Skyweavers like great AT.
But, Im stucked with fear that 3 troupes and 2 small kabalite unites are not enough... Im probably deformed from playing my former armies, where bodycount was much higher...
Troupes are costly as hell which bends me to abstain from 5x Troupe plus Clown car...but maybe Im just in misguided love with Ravager stats Im just not sure pure harlies have enough of firepower to mow horde based armies.
Black Heart Battalion with 3 ravagers (for CP and ravagers) Archon Archon Kabal Kabal Kabal Ravager x3 DC Ravager x3 DC Ravager x2 DC
Diss Cannons are actually both anti-tank and anti-infantry, believe it or not DC are 85% the time is about 1 wound more than Dark Lances, Dark Lances are only better vs T6-7 with 0 invuls, and its only better by about 1 wound.
Then b.c they are 5pts cheaper you are also saving 45pts with 3 Ravagers. So unless points change in the future or the rules do, Dis will always be better tha DL for now.
My troupes are always 93pts, 4 with 1 weapon, 1 without, that way they stay cheap but still effective at what they do, and i only take 3 troupes, i find that having both weapons (FP and Melee) is a complete waste of points.
Shadowseer
TM DJ
DJ
Solitaire
Skyweavers x6
Troupes x3, with only 4 weapons (93pts, either 4 melee or 4 FP)
3 Starweavers
But i'm trying for more mono quins to get top 10 on ITC/BCP, i am doing another tournament in a couple weeks, and if i do well i could be better than i am now (Last week i looked and was in the 30's)
BUT i'm kinda mad at ITC/BCP ranks right now, as they still have soup armies in top positions for mono armies, IDK if its b.c jan,feb,march had that rules and its grandfather in, or if its a programming error, i've asked a few times and got no answers.
Shadowseer
TM DJ
DJ
Solitaire
Skyweavers x6
Troupes x3, with only 4 weapons (93pts, either 4 melee or 4 FP)
3 Starweavers
But i'm trying for more mono quins to get top 10 on ITC/BCP, i am doing another tournament in a couple weeks, and if i do well i could be better than i am now (Last week i looked and was in the 30's)
BUT i'm kinda mad at ITC/BCP ranks right now, as they still have soup armies in top positions for mono armies, IDK if its b.c jan,feb,march had that rules and its grandfather in, or if its a programming error, i've asked a few times and got no answers.
How about the performance of the DJs and the Solitaire.
I consider them pretty redundant and superfluous.
Great, the DJ is for me an objective holder, that being recon, an actual objective, or just behind enemy lines with heroes' path.
They always get me points every game and have won just b.c of the opponent cant shoot at them. Some players will have assassins and i just modify my placement of them a bit and dont worry to much.
wuestenfux wrote: DJs as object holders will be exposed to deep strikers. The Solitaire as one-man wrecking machine? Hardly believable.
DS isnt a problem for me, as i always have backfield units, honestly what really gets me are 2 lists, triple knight lists, and flyer spam lists, i can win almost any other match up but those are a very uphill battle.
And i never said the solitaire is a 1 man wrecking unit, i said he is a scalpel assassin to hit key targets, with inside movement, charging through walls, and a single base, you can fit him in very hard to reach places, he has been the perfect distraction and assassin for many games.
If you want raw killing power, then just go a Troupe unit, they will out damage him for the same points every time, a 12 man unit is insanely good as a wrecking ball and also still extremely fast.
here is a killer tip:
1) Start a 12 man Troupe unit in LoS blocking terrain 2) Use Heroes' Path on the Shadowseer/DJ/Solitaire, put the Shadowseer mid field (Where he normally can move to due to movement issues) in the direction you want your Troupes to go 3) Troupes move 8" + advances, use "Warrior Acrobats" for additional 6", cast Twilight pathway on Troupes, you will move a about 30" EDIT: also use 3++ stratagem if you want. 4) Additionally can cast -1 to hit on them, as silent shroud can has ignore overwatch 5) Declare multi charge 6) Use fight twice strat, 7) Have a nice blood bath
I've done this a few times, but i dont really like that play style, i like having a lot of tools, i like DJ's and Solitaires, i like the ability to pick fights and move when i want to move, hide when i want to hide.
Guys, competitively speaking, which are the best pathways for Harlequins?
For me it comes down to three:
Frozen Stars: +1 attack in the charge phase, 6' FnP warlord trait bubble, Ghoul Mask (kinda meh), +1 to wound Strat against infantry, beasts and bikes (amazing!)
Midnight Sorrow: D6 extra movement when falling back, and 6' consolidation, exploding 6's for Warlord Trait, Midnight Chime (pretty good but small bubble), Strat that allows you to fight one more time when slain (amazing on Solitaire)
Soaring Spite: Pistols count as assault weapons, and there is no penalty to assault weapons even if that unit advances, Warlord trait disembark from vehicle after it's moved (incredible), Faolchus Talon (extra movement and no deaths on exploding vehicles), Strat that allows a unit to effectively embark on a vehicle if within 9' when consolidating
Soaring Spite lends more to going heavy fusion pistol and clowns in transport, Frozen Stars and Midnight Sorrow is obviously more geared to close combat. Skyweavers obviously benefit from all three pathways. It's a shame that Curtain Fall belongs to another pathway as it's probably my favourite relic. Combined with a couple strats, this turns the DJ into a devastating sniper.
I run soaring spite, 1 squad of 6 bikes and 3 transports each with 5 clowns with fusion pistols. They do incredible work, just the fact you can get that 59" move off with one of them t1 for a 62" melta threat range typically means the opponent is going to lose their prize tank t1 or a warlord.
(2 transports advance up, 1 has deathjester with talon, other has shadowsear warlord. Warlord jumps out then casts twilight path on 1st one. Then it can fire and fade for an additonal 7" if it needs to get closer for the troupe inside to shoot. I run death jesters because giving the vehicle another shuriken cannon isnt a bad thing.)
With the new marine stuff coming out today/tomorrow it will be interesting to see how harlies hold up.
Has anyone here put their Troupes, shadowseers, Corsair etc on 32mm bases? I have 4 box's unbuilt ATM and 20 on 25mm bases but I want to upgrade them all on 32mm so they don't fall over. Would this be viable or is it better to stick to the 25mm and look for stuff to weight them down and stop them from falling over.
Odrankt wrote: Has anyone here put their Troupes, shadowseers, Corsair etc on 32mm bases? I have 4 box's unbuilt ATM and 20 on 25mm bases but I want to upgrade them all on 32mm so they don't fall over. Would this be viable or is it better to stick to the 25mm and look for stuff to weight them down and stop them from falling over.
I haven't tried that, but . . . . I did glue a small washer onto the bottom of each of my smaller base armies (harlequins, AoS skeletons, etc) and this has prevented them from falling over as I move them around. It makes a world of difference.
Odrankt wrote: Has anyone here put their Troupes, shadowseers, Corsair etc on 32mm bases? I have 4 box's unbuilt ATM and 20 on 25mm bases but I want to upgrade them all on 32mm so they don't fall over. Would this be viable or is it better to stick to the 25mm and look for stuff to weight them down and stop them from falling over.
I haven't tried that, but . . . . I did glue a small washer onto the bottom of each of my smaller base armies (harlequins, AoS skeletons, etc) and this has prevented them from falling over as I move them around. It makes a world of difference.
Sn33R wrote: So is that the consensus on a 5 man troup? 4x either fusion or cc weapon?
I always go 5 of both but that's some point sink on 3 units
Well, I go with 2 fusion guns and 5 caresses,
5 fusion guns is overkill.
For me, 5 fusion is nowhere near overkill, as Harlequins have absolutely no way to get rerolls to hit or wound in shooting. Last time I used Harlequins I fired 12 fusion shots at a vehicle and did a total of 4 wounds, and that's only slightly worse than they usually do for me.
vipoid wrote: Don't know if this is a silly question but do you guys not take any Troupe models without extra wargear (to give the squad some ablative wounds)?
Ablative wounds or not.
This is a good question when it comes to Troupes.
As you can see from the comments slightly above there are different points of view.
Does anyone have any tips for playing mono harlies at 1k?
We've been playing a lot of smaller games lately and I'm finding there's some matchups I just can't win.
I feel I need a battalion as the army is so CP hungry, and usually run 3 troupes in starweavers kitted out with caresses and embraces but it leaves me lacking in anti tank.
I'm considering dumping the transports for 10 haywire skyweavers and running the troupes naked, but unless I DS them they'll probably just get shot off the board, and would still have to make the charge anyway, so....
Also, is it just me or does anyone else feel like starweavers are too expensive? They're good but are basically a necessity for us.
Dont worry about weapons on troupes at 1k, 3x5 is 195pts, thats already 1/5 your points, then 2 HQ's (just take 2 TM's at 1k bc table size are smaller you dont need the extra movement IMO, and 125pts is to much). A battalion Is now 360pts (TM's with FP's, 1 with Power sword and 1 with Caress or Kiss)
After take, honestly just take 12 Bikes and a starweaver, bikes are HWC with no melee).
This will get you 9CP, just enough to keep -1 to hit on a skyweaver and 3++ on 1 of them as well
Optional, dont care about CP at all, and just do
Outrider 1 Shadowseer Skyweavers in 3 units (1x6, 2x3)
Vanguard 1 TM 3 DJ's 1 Solitaire
Keep the DJ's behind the Skyweavers, this will all be Dreaming Shadow, also relic on a DJ and on a solitaire, this will leave you with only 4CP, but just use the CP for emergencies. This will also give you character protection andable to have 1 DJ holding objectives without being shot at.
Amazing thanks, yeh I definitely think skyweavers are the way to go, just a shame you can't really do proper combat harlies at 1k.
I'll have to get a couple more weavers and another DJ but I like both lists, 2nd one looks good but CPs would be tight with solitaire and curtainfall.
Going to have a play around with those and see what I can come up with, cheers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Does anyone think going veiled path would be worth it when not running transports, to get 2 deepstrikes for the price of 1?
So, I was thinking of starting a new Harlequin army, primarily for the painting challenge it is but I would also like to be semi competitive. I am wondering if something like this would do ok on the tabletop (for 1500p):
I would use Soaring Spite
Troupe Master + kiss
Troupe Master + kiss
Shadowseer
Solitaire
4 x Troupe (5 players) (4 x Fpistols) (4 x Embrace)
4 x Starweaver
I would drop 1 troupe/starweaver for more Skyweavers, Comp quins atm is 12+ skyweavers, point for point they are for sure out best unit without questions, they are so good in fact that voidweavers are pointless.
Well, Voidweavers are often seen as pointless.
How to make them work as tanks giving fire support? When it comes to fluff, they are inevitable in a Harlie army.
But 3 Ravagers or 3 flyers (Eldar, DE) are far superior to 3 Voidweavers.
Amishprn86 wrote: they are so good in fact that voidweavers are pointless.
Really?
I thought Voidweavers were pointless because they were only slightly better armed than the basic Harlequin transport?
They fill the same role, and b.c Skyweavers can be in a unit of 6, being 18 wounds, and 6 weapons, stratagems and powers work MUCH better on them, -1 to hit, +1 invul, twilight pathways, they also have better melee. Also in ITC 3 Voidweavers (324pts) being killed can give up 3 VPs plus kill more where 1 Skyweaver (270-306pts) unit can only give up 2 VP max and less likely to give up kill more, its also the same amount of wounds.
The only think the Voidweaver has is 1 extra weapon, and +1 toughness, but for the points and how units work in 8th for buffs, aka stratagems and powers, its not worth it.
When it comes to them vs a Starweaver, they are actually really good IMO, for 4pts more you get a P-cannon instead of transport. Honestly tho, botht he Star and Voidweavers are 10pts to much IMO, especially when you look at the new Impulsor.
Trashpanda wrote: Does anyone have any tips for playing mono harlies at 1k?
We've been playing a lot of smaller games lately and I'm finding there's some matchups I just can't win.
I feel I need a battalion as the army is so CP hungry, and usually run 3 troupes in starweavers kitted out with caresses and embraces but it leaves me lacking in anti tank.
I'm considering dumping the transports for 10 haywire skyweavers and running the troupes naked, but unless I DS them they'll probably just get shot off the board, and would still have to make the charge anyway, so....
Also, is it just me or does anyone else feel like starweavers are too expensive? They're good but are basically a necessity for us.
This is what I bring to 1k games. Because it's only a 4x4 you won't need a Shadowseer for Twilight pathways so you can get away with 2 troupe masters. For the 5 fusion pistol troupes + troupe master in transport I just hide them behind terrain then move them up turn 2 into something my opponent has that's T8 or a monster (can't get haywired) with both bike squads going up the flanks haywire whatever I want dead and charging into stuff so they can't get shot at next turn.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, Voidweavers are often seen as pointless.
How to make them work as tanks giving fire support? When it comes to fluff, they are inevitable in a Harlie army.
But 3 Ravagers or 3 flyers (Eldar, DE) are far superior to 3 Voidweavers.
How to make them work? Make them real tanks, +1 toughness and +2 wounds with something to re-roll the D6 shots for the P -cannon
wuestenfux wrote: Well, Voidweavers are often seen as pointless.
How to make them work as tanks giving fire support? When it comes to fluff, they are inevitable in a Harlie army.
But 3 Ravagers or 3 flyers (Eldar, DE) are far superior to 3 Voidweavers.
How to make them work? Make them real tanks, +1 toughness and +2 wounds with something to re-roll the D6 shots for the P -cannon
Too less attention of GW to make an overall solid Harlie codex.
Voidweavers are too close to Skyweavers. No surprise as they can be assembled from the same box.
Trashpanda wrote: Does anyone have any tips for playing mono harlies at 1k?
We've been playing a lot of smaller games lately and I'm finding there's some matchups I just can't win.
I feel I need a battalion as the army is so CP hungry, and usually run 3 troupes in starweavers kitted out with caresses and embraces but it leaves me lacking in anti tank.
I'm considering dumping the transports for 10 haywire skyweavers and running the troupes naked, but unless I DS them they'll probably just get shot off the board, and would still have to make the charge anyway, so....
Also, is it just me or does anyone else feel like starweavers are too expensive? They're good but are basically a necessity for us.
This is what I bring to 1k games. Because it's only a 4x4 you won't need a Shadowseer for Twilight pathways so you can get away with 2 troupe masters. For the 5 fusion pistol troupes + troupe master in transport I just hide them behind terrain then move them up turn 2 into something my opponent has that's T8 or a monster (can't get haywired) with both bike squads going up the flanks haywire whatever I want dead and charging into stuff so they can't get shot at next turn.
Cheers, but how do the troupes on foot do? I find as soon as they're out of their transport they get shot to pieces, unless your skyweavers are drawing all the fire?
Foot troupes just stay on objectives in my deployment zone and act as anti Deepstriking. They are usually in terrain that is LoSB so they don't really get shot at. Maybe toward turn 4 when stuff is dead and my opponent still has his Warlord I might rush 1 unit up to take them out if it's a viable idea
Also, for the troupe in the transport with the F.pistols. if they don't kill the target I shoot at I'll usually charge the unit with my transport so that I do my best not to get shoot at during my opponents shooting phase and I can call back on my next turn and still shoot + charge if I need it.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, Voidweavers are often seen as pointless.
How to make them work as tanks giving fire support? When it comes to fluff, they are inevitable in a Harlie army.
But 3 Ravagers or 3 flyers (Eldar, DE) are far superior to 3 Voidweavers.
How to make them work? Make them real tanks, +1 toughness and +2 wounds with something to re-roll the D6 shots for the P -cannon
I think the Prismatic Cannon need's improving, paying 100 points to be able to fire the equivalent of 1 dark lance shot is not good, and i'm pretty sure Voidweavers do not ignore the penalty for moving and firing a heavy weapon like a Ravager or Raider would. I kinda wish the Prismatic cannon functioned like the Forgeworld Drukhari Reaper weapon:
Blast version: 24', Heavy 2D6, Strength 6, 0 AP 1 Dmg Beam version: 36' Heavy D6, Strength 8, -4AP D6Dmg
Any models that die in a unit hit by this weapon cannot advance this turn
I'd even take a slight points increase for this kind of firepower in a Harlequin army
wuestenfux wrote: Well, Voidweavers are often seen as pointless.
How to make them work as tanks giving fire support? When it comes to fluff, they are inevitable in a Harlie army.
But 3 Ravagers or 3 flyers (Eldar, DE) are far superior to 3 Voidweavers.
How to make them work? Make them real tanks, +1 toughness and +2 wounds with something to re-roll the D6 shots for the P -cannon
I think the Prismatic Cannon need's improving, paying 100 points to be able to fire the equivalent of 1 dark lance shot is not good, and i'm pretty sure Voidweavers do not ignore the penalty for moving and firing a heavy weapon like a Ravager or Raider would. I kinda wish the Prismatic cannon functioned like the Forgeworld Drukhari Reaper weapon:
Blast version: 24', Heavy 2D6, Strength 6, 0 AP 1 Dmg Beam version: 36' Heavy D6, Strength 8, -4AP D6Dmg
Any models that die in a unit hit by this weapon cannot advance this turn
I'd even take a slight points increase for this kind of firepower in a Harlequin army
The P cannon is an assault weapon and should stay as so. And it already is like that, its D6 shots, D3 shots, and 1 shot, It is a mini Prism Cannon from Fire Prisms. It could do with a better gun for sure, or get tougher, either way is fine with me.
cougarmech wrote:Hi all
Is there a reason why only one solitaire can be taken in an army? Is it a balance thing, or fluff?
If it's a balance thing, with the FAQ coming up, what would everyone's thoughts on removing the limit in the codex and during with the rule of three
Solitaires acts on their own, they join any battles at anytime and they are also Spies. So it is within their fluff to be taken anywhere.
wannabmoy wrote: I really hope the psychic awakening expands on rules for Blanks. Which I always thought it was implied in the fluff that a Solitaire was a Blank.
This would be brilliant, Harlequins take smites hard sometimes
Odrankt wrote: Has anyone here put their Troupes, shadowseers, Corsair etc on 32mm bases? I have 4 box's unbuilt ATM and 20 on 25mm bases but I want to upgrade them all on 32mm so they don't fall over. Would this be viable or is it better to stick to the 25mm and look for stuff to weight them down and stop them from falling over.
I originally had all my troupes on 32mm bases. It didn't really help – it doesn't add enough weight really, and to be honest I didn't think it looked very good. It also makes them take up radically more space so they don't really play the same on the tabletop. I switched them to 25mm bases and used stones and other scenery to weigh them down - now I don't have problems with them tipping over. They're also magnetized so the magnet plus the milliput holding the magnet probably add a bit to the bottom weight.
Odrankt wrote: Has anyone here put their Troupes, shadowseers, Corsair etc on 32mm bases? I have 4 box's unbuilt ATM and 20 on 25mm bases but I want to upgrade them all on 32mm so they don't fall over. Would this be viable or is it better to stick to the 25mm and look for stuff to weight them down and stop them from falling over.
I originally had all my troupes on 32mm bases. It didn't really help – it doesn't add enough weight really, and to be honest I didn't think it looked very good. It also makes them take up radically more space so they don't really play the same on the tabletop. I switched them to 25mm bases and used stones and other scenery to weigh them down - now I don't have problems with them tipping over. They're also magnetized so the magnet plus the milliput holding the magnet probably add a bit to the bottom weight.
I use this under my Harlequin to keep them weighted down. Just fill up the base with pellets (make sure they don't protrude over the rim), then add runny super glue and zip kick. They'll be really hard to knock over afterwards.
I am going to be playing in an upcoming local tournament. I never have luck running skyweavers. I'm not sure how I should be using them. I kit them out with the zephyrglaive and the haywire cannon but they don't seem to last very long. Especially in cc. Any tips or tricks I should know?
krootox08 wrote: I am going to be playing in an upcoming local tournament. I never have luck running skyweavers. I'm not sure how I should be using them. I kit them out with the zephyrglaive and the haywire cannon but they don't seem to last very long. Especially in cc. Any tips or tricks I should know?
mine are usually target number one for my opponent, so i make sure they are as hard to kill as possible.
I soup 6 as soaring spite in my aeldari lists.
I advance + prismatic blur them (twilight pathways if i really need a t1 charge), delete a dangerous vehicle and then charge into the least dangerous overwatcher, i pile in / consolidate into as many vehicles as possible. in their turn if they fall back (which they will if youre playing against a gunline since thats the only way they can deal with them usually, i use cegorah's jest to delete another vehicle. Then i pop lighning fast reactions on them when tehy start being shot at.
usually my enemy will spend turn 1 either unable to shoot with his tanks because they fell back, or shoot his whole army at my bikes to get rid of them, at this point, even if they died, they did their job as the rest of my list had plenty of leeway to take control of the map and secure objectives.
If youre playing against very little vehicle heavy lists however, the bikes will greatly underperform since their strength comes from the mortal wounds they can dish out.
Now that Ynnari characters are cheaper they fully are viable in all Aeldari armies. But they still are costly in Harlequins. I personally use the Yncarne in Quins b.c i like the model. With 12 Skyweavers running ahead and a few other units (I like starweavers so i have a few of them) its fun and it gets to work right away most times. But its still very fragile and risky vs fast moving armies do to harlequins low model/unit count.
Amishprn86 wrote: Now that Ynnari characters are cheaper they fully are viable in all Aeldari armies. But they still are costly in Harlequins. I personally use the Yncarne in Quins b.c i like the model. With 12 Skyweavers running ahead and a few other units (I like starweavers so i have a few of them) its fun and it gets to work right away most times. But its still very fragile and risky vs fast moving armies do to harlequins low model/unit count.
Voidweavers are 90pts each option, Neuro pistols still not really worth it, Troupes, HQ's going down is great and well needed. Skyweavers worth it more than ever with 5pts drop, without weapons a 6man unit of HWC is now 240pts, amazing deal. Finally Starweavers are where they should have been at.
Overall its all good, hopefully we get some new rules with PA soon, otherwise we just got a minor boost b.c other armies are also getting points drops but also added rules, so in the long run i feel we are about 10% better in the meta so far (its hard to see the big picture right now).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Odd, my post said edit but i didnt edit it......
Voidweavers are 90pts each option, Neuro pistols still not really worth it, Troupes, HQ's going down is great and well needed. Skyweavers worth it more than ever with 5pts drop, without weapons a 6man unit of HWC is now 240pts, amazing deal. Finally Starweavers are where they should have been at.
Overall its all good, hopefully we get some new rules with PA soon, otherwise we just got a minor boost b.c other armies are also getting points drops but also added rules, so in the long run i feel we are about 10% better in the meta so far (its hard to see the big picture right now).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Odd, my post said edit but i didnt edit it......
i'm surprised that skyweavers saw any pts drop at all, they were already the best unit in the codex. I wont complain, its only making it easier to splash them in eldar soup.
Transports,troops and Hqs getting their much deserves pts drop is awesome. I wont feel as bad when taking an harlequin battalion as the core of a list.
Voidweavers are 90pts each option, Neuro pistols still not really worth it, Troupes, HQ's going down is great and well needed. Skyweavers worth it more than ever with 5pts drop, without weapons a 6man unit of HWC is now 240pts, amazing deal. Finally Starweavers are where they should have been at.
Overall its all good, hopefully we get some new rules with PA soon, otherwise we just got a minor boost b.c other armies are also getting points drops but also added rules, so in the long run i feel we are about 10% better in the meta so far (its hard to see the big picture right now).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Odd, my post said edit but i didnt edit it......
Great news!
Are Voidweavers playable now?
I'd still prefer DE/CW flyers if necessary.
I think Neuro Disruptors are still outclassed by Fusion Pistols but for 5pts I'll definitely feel a lot better about equipping my Shadowseer with one.
Incidentally, I'm glad to see that the Shadowseer no longer costs more than a Farseer in spite of only having 1 Deny and lacking all their extra casting gubbins.
i'm surprised that skyweavers saw any pts drop at all, they were already the best unit in the codex. I wont complain, its only making it easier to splash them in eldar soup.
I'm not an experienced Harlequin player (playing heroes and troupes in Starweavers but having fun locally).
Can someone explain to me the use, load out & build, and benefits of Skyweavers? I'm guessing first turn charge with Zephyr glaives?
i'm surprised that skyweavers saw any pts drop at all, they were already the best unit in the codex. I wont complain, its only making it easier to splash them in eldar soup.
I'm not an experienced Harlequin player (playing heroes and troupes in Starweavers but having fun locally).
Can someone explain to me the use, load out & build, and benefits of Skyweavers? I'm guessing first turn charge with Zephyr glaives?
Thanks kindly!
Haywire cannons. that is all.
And with the right stratagems, bikes are (pre CA) the strongest unit in the codex.
For 51 pts you get :
T4, W3, 4+, 4++, BS/WS 3+, A3
They have a native -1 to hit,
they can (with the right masque form, soaring spite) Move 16", auto-advance 6" and then have no penalty to shooting.
with zephyglaives they are actually decent at chopping MEQs and GEQs in CC.
Now add stratagems :
1cp : prismatic blur (get a 3++ after advancing)
2cp : lightning fast reactions (additionnal -1 to hit)
1cp : cegorach's jest (shoot at an opponent that fell back this turn)
They become super lethal vehicle hunters that are super tough to kill.
Skyweavers has been the strongest in the codex for a long time now. Thats nothing new.
The great thing is, now units like Starweavers and Troupes are more point costed correctly, if we get some rules in a future release we might be a solid mid tier army without the need for 12 Skyweavers in every list.
And You can play with some CCW on Skyweavers, i have 18 of them but 6 are with weapons, i normally only play with 12 Skyweavers and i have 1 unit with Glaives, the Glaives has work for me in most games, you never know when you just need that little extra bit and a charge will do it. For 36pts i feel its worth it on 1 unit.
I have tried 3 with and 3 without a few times, and it never worked out well. Either go all melee or no melee.
dan2026 wrote: What are people's thoughts on Troupes vs Primaris Marines?
Preference on melee weapon?
Or is a perhaps just better to shoot them with fusion pistols?
Well, my approach is to give the Troupe members caresses and 2 members fusion pistols.
If you're already close to shoot the fusion pistols, charge them.
Staying outside and waiting for the return fire is not an option.
dan2026 wrote: What are people's thoughts on Troupes vs Primaris Marines?
Preference on melee weapon?
Or is a perhaps just better to shoot them with fusion pistols?
Well, my approach is to give the Troupe members caresses and 2 members fusion pistols.
If you're already close to shoot the fusion pistols, charge them.
Staying outside and waiting for the return fire is not an option.
Thanks for the reply.
Do you think the boosted strength and AP of the caress outweighs the D3 damage of the kiss?
dan2026 wrote: What are people's thoughts on Troupes vs Primaris Marines?
Preference on melee weapon?
Or is a perhaps just better to shoot them with fusion pistols?
Well, my approach is to give the Troupe members caresses and 2 members fusion pistols.
If you're already close to shoot the fusion pistols, charge them.
Staying outside and waiting for the return fire is not an option.
Thanks for the reply.
Do you think the boosted strength and AP of the caress outweighs the D3 damage of the kiss?
Well, I go for hitting on 3+ and volume of attacks.
D3 is nothing really to rely on.
Well for me, so long as they don't interrupt, primaris die just fine to any of the weapon options (except blades, I don't run blades), it's keeping the troupe alive after you've murdered the marines that's the problem.
Twilight Pathways wrote: Kisses do more wounds to Primaris (0.33 per attack vs 0.29 for caresses).
Your math is off, since kisses at most can do 2 damage to primaris (because they have 2 wounds) you can't average d3 to 2.
If my math is correct kisses averages 0,24 damage per attack against primaris, less than caresses. It gets complicated because a damage roll of 2 or 3 preceded by a 1 only inflicts 1 damage.
Yeah, combine with only Str 4 compare to str 5, and -1ap compare to -2ap.
3 Quins w/ Kiss; 12 attacks, 3+ to hit (8 hits), 4+ to wound (4 wounds), 4+ save (2 failed saves), that'll be at minimum kill 1 Primaris, at max kill 2.
3 quins w/ Caress; 12 attacks, 3+ to hit (8 hits) 3+ to wounds 5.33 wounds), 5+ save (3.5 failed saves) at minimum you kill 1.5, at max you kill 2.
So both can kill 2, but a Caress has a better chance to do more damage, and will on average deal 1 more wound.
Twilight Pathways wrote: Kisses do more wounds to Primaris (0.33 per attack vs 0.29 for caresses).
The problem is that the average math ignores that you lose damage each time you roll a 3, and each time you roll a 1. In reality a D2 weapon does vastly more damage to primaris than a Dd3, by mathhammer they are identical.
Twilight Pathways wrote: Kisses do more wounds to Primaris (0.33 per attack vs 0.29 for caresses).
The problem is that the average math ignores that you lose damage each time you roll a 3, and each time you roll a 1. In reality a D2 weapon does vastly more damage to primaris than a Dd3, by mathhammer they are identical.
Yep this. With 2 wound target 3's don't balance out on 2's at all. When you roll 1 next d3 is pointless so you spent 2 attacks killing 1 target and when you roll 3 you wasted one.
For sake of record simulating 10,000 consequtive wounds by d3 damage wounds ended up with around 6643 kills. So more like 1.32 wounds per average.
So I'm in a friendly league, where we are running a cityfight-style ruleset. 60mm is the largest base size allowed, lots of narrow corridors and rooms, lots of short LOS. 750-points lists, and limited CP use.
So I am thinking of going Eldar, possible a spirit host with lots of wraiths, but I'm also considering Harlequins as i've always loved them but rarely had the opportunity to make full use of them.
Starweavers are still fine to use (handy 60mm base size) but considering the close quarters and not needing protection from any long range shooting, I'm not sure they're quite worth their points vs more Players?
Also Skyweavers... with only a few dreadnoughts likely to make an appearance, are these guys actually going to put in work against all the custodes and terminators that seem to be being fielded?
Pretty much need to come up with a list that is going to manage to hang in against potential hordes (though hordes get stuck in tight spaces which is handy) and terminators/custodes/elites.
Any suggestions?
Thinking that large troupe squads with Dreaming Shadow for the morale protection might be ok, but the Sentinels part of the trait seems a bit... not good for them. Unless they all have fusion pistols. The 1 attack in melee seems pretty rubbish. Frozen stars for universal +1 attacks might be better, but then I'd need to use min-squads maybe? So less coverage with my limited stratagems.
Voidweavers may actually be decent, with their variable profiles?
Troupes would LOVE that playstyle, go troupe heavy with some character like DJ's, and don't take Voidweavers, just take more troupes with FP's lol. You could also take 2 Skyweavers (Its better than voidweavers still sadly).
With all the LoS blocking, moving through terrain will be so fun.
Amishprn86 wrote: Troupes would LOVE that playstyle, go troupe heavy with some character like DJ's, and don't take Voidweavers, just take more troupes with FP's lol. You could also take 2 Skyweavers (Its better than voidweavers still sadly).
With all the LoS blocking, moving through terrain will be so fun.
One issue I've realised though, is that in this version of the game overwatch defaults to a 5+ instead of 6. So the Troupes will be getting gunned down by overwatch. I know you can use the Raiment to turn a character into a howling banshee, but not sure if that's quite enough. Might be ok though.
Any tips as to best options for Trait / Relic / Warlord trait?
Edit: Also, are two skyweavers actually better than a voidweaver? Same wounds, void has more toughness, same -1 to hit. Haywires are great vs vehicles but seem weak against infantry, while voidweaver would have less hits but easier to wounds. I guess the skyweavers would be better in melee though with the glaives, but in that case should they just take skurikens instead of haywire?
And Skyweavers are also able to get 3++ more easily, they also can melee for still cheaper points. You just lose out on a few shots.
Traits? Its up to your playstyle, are you using pistols or not? are you focusing on melee or not? Do you want stratagems to stop OW or not?
IDK for a terrain heavy table and with that OW, maybe a Starmist TM with A foot in the Future (Very under rated honestly, +1" to, Heroic, pile in, consolidate, advance, and charges, also gives +2" to movements) With those 2 things he is now a Killing machine that can travel almost anywhere, its great for small tables and tight terrain. One of my favorite ways to play a TM.
And Skyweavers are also able to get 3++ more easily, they also can melee for still cheaper points. You just lose out on a few shots.
Traits? Its up to your playstyle, are you using pistols or not? are you focusing on melee or not? Do you want stratagems to stop OW or not?
IDK for a terrain heavy table and with that OW, maybe a Starmist TM with A foot in the Future (Very under rated honestly, +1" to, Heroic, pile in, consolidate, advance, and charges, also gives +2" to movements) With those 2 things he is now a Killing machine that can travel almost anywhere, its great for small tables and tight terrain. One of my favorite ways to play a TM.
As the table is essentially 'indoors' (think spaceships like space hulk) I don't think you can actually go 'over' the walls. Some maps do have obstacles in rooms, like big computer banks or whatever, but the walls have doors. So the flip belts are still useful for skipping past units and over some obstacles, but not so much for shortcuts!
I lose the idea of a bunch of fusion pistols, but it seems like Players strength is really in their melee. I'd probably have troupes with some caress/fusion models, and then have a couple of cheap blade/shuriken models as well as ablative wounds to keep the unit cheaper, as a few will die on the approach / overwatch anyway.
There's a rule in this game that all 'roll for number of shots' weapons get to reroll that dice if you wish. so flamers and explosives become better. I'm still not sure if haywire will beat voidweavers though. I think they do work out slightly ahead of shuriken cannons, mathwise...?
If you get to re-roll the number of shots, thats 2D6 re-roll vs 1D6+6, so a Voidweaver willd o more damage to infantry and less to vehicles, the difference is in Skyweavers is what else they can do, which is melee. They can move + advance + shoot + charge +fallback + shoot + charge. You get that for less points than a voidweaver, its also 2 models over 1, so 2D weapons are wasted on Skyweavers.
Amishprn86 wrote: If you get to re-roll the number of shots, thats 2D6 re-roll vs 1D6+6, so a Voidweaver willd o more damage to infantry and less to vehicles, the difference is in Skyweavers is what else they can do, which is melee. They can move + advance + shoot + charge +fallback + shoot + charge. You get that for less points than a voidweaver, its also 2 models over 1, so 2D weapons are wasted on Skyweavers.
I actually completely forgot about the 2x cannons on the Voidweaver, that does make them a lot better in comparison. But also true, the skyweavers get to do melee.
Flip belts don't let the models ignore the height anymore, unless I am missing something.
Per FAQ:
‘During the Movement phase, models in this unit can move across models as if they were not there, and when moving across terrain features, vertical distance is not counted against the total these models can move (i.e. moving vertically is free for these models in the Movement phase). During the Charge phase, models in this unit can move across models (other than Buildings) as if they were not there.
Or were you suggesting that he charge over the wall (i.e. rolling enough distance to get up and over)?
Flip belts don't let the models ignore the height anymore, unless I am missing something.
Per FAQ:
‘During the Movement phase, models in this unit can move across models as if they were not there, and when moving across terrain features, vertical distance is not counted against the total these models can move (i.e. moving vertically is free for these models in the Movement phase). During the Charge phase, models in this unit can move across models (other than Buildings) as if they were not there.
Or were you suggesting that he charge over the wall (i.e. rolling enough distance to get up and over)?
Core terrain rules infantry can charge through walls.
Edit: You could declare the walls as impassible, he would need to check, but in general when declaring a terrain feature is a wall infantry are no allowed to charge and fight though walls.
Flip belts don't let the models ignore the height anymore, unless I am missing something.
Per FAQ:
‘During the Movement phase, models in this unit can move across models as if they were not there, and when moving across terrain features, vertical distance is not counted against the total these models can move (i.e. moving vertically is free for these models in the Movement phase). During the Charge phase, models in this unit can move across models (other than Buildings) as if they were not there.
Or were you suggesting that he charge over the wall (i.e. rolling enough distance to get up and over)?
Core terrain rules infantry can charge through walls.
Edit: You could declare the walls as impassible, he would need to check, but in general when declaring a terrain feature is a wall infantry are no allowed to charge and fight though walls.
We have been playing the walls as being impassable/impenetrable. Some of the walls don't even have playable space behind them. But there was no reason for you to know that, I didn't think to actually specify.
List I'm currently considering -
Silent Shroud 750pts
Shadowseer , Shards of Light + another power (not sure which yet). (relic- possibly with Laughing Gods Eye)
Troupe Master, Fusion pistol (possibly with Starmist Raiment)
Not sure which of the HQ's end up with a relic yet. The gods eye will help with keeping my clowns from suffering to morale, but then the starmist raiment gives me two sources of anti-overwatch in this list, which could be pretty potent by itself.
DJ + a nearby troupe + Shards can give me -4 to enemy morale relatively easily (occasionally -6 due to some of the game rules working in my favour), which may end up just making the opponent burn 2cp but that's pretty powerful in itself in small games.
Considering dropping the DJ for something else though. Not sure.
Also not sure which second psychic power I should take, or which of those relics is overall the best to have in this list. Having limited CP is a pain. I -could- afford to take both relics.. but then I'd not be able to use the Knife stratagem, at which point I'd likely be better off as Frozen Stars.
Flip belts don't let the models ignore the height anymore, unless I am missing something.
Per FAQ:
‘During the Movement phase, models in this unit can move across models as if they were not there, and when moving across terrain features, vertical distance is not counted against the total these models can move (i.e. moving vertically is free for these models in the Movement phase). During the Charge phase, models in this unit can move across models (other than Buildings) as if they were not there.
Or were you suggesting that he charge over the wall (i.e. rolling enough distance to get up and over)?
Core terrain rules infantry can charge through walls.
Edit: You could declare the walls as impassible, he would need to check, but in general when declaring a terrain feature is a wall infantry are no allowed to charge and fight though walls.
Wasn't it ruins infantry can go through? Solid wall isn't really ruin like. Anyway up to players classify what counts as ruin and what not
Flip belts don't let the models ignore the height anymore, unless I am missing something.
Per FAQ:
‘During the Movement phase, models in this unit can move across models as if they were not there, and when moving across terrain features, vertical distance is not counted against the total these models can move (i.e. moving vertically is free for these models in the Movement phase). During the Charge phase, models in this unit can move across models (other than Buildings) as if they were not there.
Or were you suggesting that he charge over the wall (i.e. rolling enough distance to get up and over)?
Core terrain rules infantry can charge through walls.
Edit: You could declare the walls as impassible, he would need to check, but in general when declaring a terrain feature is a wall infantry are no allowed to charge and fight though walls.
Wasn't it ruins infantry can go through? Solid wall isn't really ruin like. Anyway up to players classify what counts as ruin and what not
All terrain is supposed to be declared at the start of the game. Most players are used to halfway doing this step, but it is an important part of the game once you actually play with it.
All GW buildings are ruins, they sell them as ruins, they say they are ruins. So if you play them as something else you have house ruled that terrain (Which is 100% fine) but just making a note for people that might not know.
And to note, things like Rubble, Woods, Tanglewire, Pipes, and some others actually slow you down in the charge phase or makes you move over them like normal.
Putting down lots of obstacles like Woods, Rubble, Tank traps/tanglewire, pipes, etc.. not only hurts vehicles, MC, but also Infantry and can really change the game, when units like GSC has to -2 to the charge, or move 1/2 way for Guardsmen move move move, its really does make the game feel different.
So I'm taking the time to finalise my 2k list and not sure if I have enough anti tank.
Currently I got 10 haywire skyweavers and 12 fusion pistols split across 3 squads, is that enough at 2k?
I'm running 2 battalions to get as many CP as I can with 6x5 troupes all with caress, embrace, kiss, with 5 starweavers.
Also, the 6th troupe will have to deepstrike so I've given them all neuro disruptors so they can hopefully do something even if they fail to charge, anyone finding them useful at 5pts now?
That's plenty in the abstract, but fusion pistols are really hard to use effectively against vehicles unless you run soaring spite, and even then you usually only get one turn's worth of shots. Without the ability to shoot after advancing (which only works in the vehicle), it's just really tough to get into a position where you can actually use enough of them to really kill anything.
One of the major reasons people just don't run mono-faction quins at a competitive level is how hard they get countered by, say, flyers (or flying vehicles, or anything tough that isn't a vehicle). Luckily, craftworld eldar have many excellent options for dealing with the sorts of stuff harlequins just can't handle, so they soup together very effectively.
Ok thanks, yeah one of the battalions will have to be soaring spite, with the skyweavers and fusion boats, the other probably frozen stars ATM.
I'm not thinking it's going to be super competitive but we do play pretty strong lists and I see a fair bit of amour, like knights and tanks so need to make sure I have a fighting chance against those.
Just a note that buried most of the way down part 2 of the adepticon preview was something about Harlequins getting a PA update via White Dwarf, rather than their own book, along with Deathwatch. Dunno how to react to that - presumably they're not getting their own book because they aren't considered important enough, which feels pretty lame. On the other hand, at least they're getting *something*...
On the other other hand, it looks like the only Harlequin special character..is going to be for Imperium, not Harlequins. Lol.
I was considering starting a small quin force - much less likely now, and I've been having loads of fun playing Farsight Enclave on TTS. Nice to play a Xenos army supported with well-written rules!
grouchoben wrote: I was considering starting a small quin force - much less likely now, and I've been having loads of fun playing Farsight Enclave on TTS. Nice to play a Xenos army supported with well-written rules!
The funny thing is tho, there are many ways to build and play quins that are all equal to each other (mostly b.c the book is mid tier competitive), the rules and points for the most part are fine after the updated points.
I've seen all of these do well at local event levels (IMO what really matters as its the average Joe playing), Players had success with: Skyweaver spam, 12-18 bikes Starweaver spam: 12+ starweaver Troupe+starweaver: 2 Bats with fusion boats and melee squads Mix detachmens/mix vanguard: characters, a bike unit, a troupe unit, etc.. Brigades: Yep even brigades now.
While its only 8 units (yes a crappy terrain piece that no one knows what GW was thinking with that PoS) besides the WWG, all the units are equally as viable, sure the Voidweaver is the worst of them all, but really with them being cheaper now, they are at least not completely over shadow by Starweavers (Basically the same stats as 2 starweavers with a extra gun, just no melee support).
All GW has to do is do what they did for GSC, give us a second wave of support, 3-4 more units and the book will be in an extremely healthy place. A 3rd HQ on a bike, a new unit type like a flyer, a cheap troop like mimes, finally a name character or a larger center piece like an Avatar of Cegorach. Funny enough, we are more popular than GSC by the numbers when it comes ot events (mostly b.c DE/CWE take Skyweavers and characters), but yet they got 4x the support we did.
It looks like he's just a sidekick for the other lady that comes along with her, but who knows, maybe you can take him on his own in a Harlequin army. There's always hope...
On the topic of the Harlequin Codex, I think it's actually an excellent book full of interesting, well-balanced stuff (except Voidweavers and the terrain piece). The problem is that it's only between 1/3 to 1/2 of an actual army.
On second thought, I can kinda see why they're not doing a whole PA book: there just isn't enough in the list. What Harlequins desperately need is not new stratagems, relics, etc - there are more than enough of those already for the few units the army has.What the army desperately needs is an expanded roster, but that isn't what PA seems to be about.
Heafstaag wrote: Has anyone had luck running lots of harlequins on foot?
Footslogging is a slow way to die.
Harlies are elite, not horde. It's better to transport them and unleash them when delivered.
On the other hand, I'd take Skyweavers over Harlies any day.
Heafstaag wrote: Has anyone had luck running lots of harlequins on foot?
Footslogging is a slow way to die.
Harlies are elite, not horde. It's better to transport them and unleash them when delivered.
On the other hand, I'd take Skyweavers over Harlies any day.
Hmm. I was just thinking with their points drop a big unit or two on foot may fun to try out.
wuestenfux wrote: How about the use of Voidweavers?
I've used them in a friendly game vs SM (mostly infantry) and they behaved so-so.
They are great for cheap extra fire power in maelstrom missions, where you want something to sit out of the front lines unlike Skyweavers. And Starweavers while good and useful, they don't have that extra punch. Use them to support your other units while being able to get somewhere else your would want your troops, skyweavers to go and DJ's are not good enough for. Often times if you have enough going forward, they wont be targeted as much and can do more damage than you would first think over a few turns.
Tho i personally wouldn't take them unless you have a clear use for them, just throwing them in a list isn't fully efficient, they are our weakest unit for sure.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heafstaag wrote: Has anyone had luck running lots of harlequins on foot?
Back in 7th, SURE!, in 8th. NO!
Tho having 1 or 2 units with no weapons on foot just for sitting out of LoS and using them as DS or bubble wrapping can be fine in some situations (I have done this a few times before, not very worth while tho especially when you can get kabals for 1/2 the price to do the same thing).
Some players has been able to reliably use a 12man foot unit. Tho against some armies or armies with units (Tau, TFC, Hive Guard, etc..) they will die instantly. But with Twilight pathways and Warrior Acrobats, also give them Prismatic Blur, and finally cast Veild of Tears. That'll give them a 28" movement with a 3++, -1 to be hit you could also stack Lightning-Fast for -2 and a 3++, and you'll most likely need to use Isha's Weeping if they are targeted turn 1 if you don't go first. Just remember tho, for every buff they get thats less buffs for your Skyweavers.
Hi all. I’m just about to start collecting harlequins and I’ve been looking through their rules. Quick question, is the Great Harlequin worth it for 2cp?
Hogiebear wrote: Hi all. I’m just about to start collecting harlequins and I’ve been looking through their rules. Quick question, is the Great Harlequin worth it for 2cp?
I always found paying 2cp for basically re-roll 1's to hit is pricey. At least extend his aura to 9' or give him something in addition.
Hogiebear wrote: Hi all. I’m just about to start collecting harlequins and I’ve been looking through their rules. Quick question, is the Great Harlequin worth it for 2cp?
IMO no, i'd rather have Lightning-Fast for a turn than re-roll 1's to hit in melee only.
Troupes on foot absolutely work, especially in any format where you're guaranteed good LOS-blocking terrain in the center of the board, as is now standard in most tournaments. 11 points for effectively flying infantry ob-sec with a 4+ invuln is extremely cheap, especially by eldar standards.
Nobody else has anything like flying ob-sec infantry, much less for 11 points and with a 4+ invuln standard.
Not only are they good...they're arguably one of the very best troops choices in the game. Literally every other faction in the game would kill for a troops choice that good. Skyweavers have a reputation for being the best unit in the book but IMO troupes are even better.
That said, what they aren't good for is running in a mono harlequin list, because while they are excellent, surprisingly resilient objective holders...they don't really kill all that much.
But that's true of mono quins generally, and it's why they aren't competitive on their own. They just don't have the firepower 8th edition needs to be top-tier competitive.
They posted a preview of the Deathwatch rules, which are pathetic, literally just giving them the exact same stratagems all the other chapters got, with no suggestion of any new rules or content at all. They do say there are 14 strats and they don't list all of them...but they also say they're just the same ones other chapters get. So it looks like absolutely no new content of any kind.
This seems to bode very badly for the quins rules, since we're the other faction they decided didn't deserve its own book.
On the other hand, they can't just give us junk some other faction already has but we didn't get yet, because we aren't space marines. So presumably they have to give us *something* new...I'm just resigned to the idea it's going to be very, very little.
wuestenfux wrote: How about the use of Voidweavers?
I've used them in a friendly game vs SM (mostly infantry) and they behaved so-so.
They are great for cheap extra fire power in maelstrom missions, where you want something to sit out of the front lines unlike Skyweavers. And Starweavers while good and useful, they don't have that extra punch. Use them to support your other units while being able to get somewhere else your would want your troops, skyweavers to go and DJ's are not good enough for. Often times if you have enough going forward, they wont be targeted as much and can do more damage than you would first think over a few turns.
This is also my impression after using three of them a friendly game vs IH.
They can sit back and target tougher enemy units, while the rest of the army is advancing increasing the pressure upon the enemy.
This keeps the Voidweavers longer alive also as objective sitting units.
yukishiro1 wrote: Troupes on foot absolutely work, especially in any format where you're guaranteed good LOS-blocking terrain in the center of the board, as is now standard in most tournaments. 11 points for effectively flying infantry ob-sec with a 4+ invuln is extremely cheap, especially by eldar standards.
Nobody else has anything like flying ob-sec infantry, much less for 11 points and with a 4+ invuln standard.
Not only are they good...they're arguably one of the very best troops choices in the game. Literally every other faction in the game would kill for a troops choice that good. Skyweavers have a reputation for being the best unit in the book but IMO troupes are even better.
I wonder what would be the best masque to take for a full n foot harlie list (3x12 troupe, no upgrades...well, maybe on 2-3 models), shadowseer, troupe master.
You've already got the -1 to wound, reroll wounds in assault, 4+ invuln, etc,
Frozen stars...capitalize on all of the attacks, especially if throw in the +1 to wound strat, and WT for 6+++
Dreaming Shaodw...mitigate morale.
Veiled Path...webway bonuses
Probably Frozen Stars.
Not sure I'd want to paint 36 more harlequins though....
Khornegod wrote:Do you think 2 battalions are needed for the CP or could the harlies work with 1 battalion and for instance a Vanguard and outrider instead?
For me 100% yes, if you are ok with souping, its so much better to just go DE for a 2nd battalion tho, 30pt kabals and 60pts Archons are cheap, 210pts and you can use your kabals as body blockers/DS/bubble wrap, etc.. Or if you are set on mono QUins take a couple Troupes with no weapons, I like Troupes but 6 units with weapons is way to many points for what they do.
bullyboy wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote: Troupes on foot absolutely work, especially in any format where you're guaranteed good LOS-blocking terrain in the center of the board, as is now standard in most tournaments. 11 points for effectively flying infantry ob-sec with a 4+ invuln is extremely cheap, especially by eldar standards.
Nobody else has anything like flying ob-sec infantry, much less for 11 points and with a 4+ invuln standard.
Not only are they good...they're arguably one of the very best troops choices in the game. Literally every other faction in the game would kill for a troops choice that good. Skyweavers have a reputation for being the best unit in the book but IMO troupes are even better.
I wonder what would be the best masque to take for a full n foot harlie list (3x12 troupe, no upgrades...well, maybe on 2-3 models), shadowseer, troupe master.
You've already got the -1 to wound, reroll wounds in assault, 4+ invuln, etc,
Frozen stars...capitalize on all of the attacks, especially if throw in the +1 to wound strat, and WT for 6+++
Dreaming Shaodw...mitigate morale.
Veiled Path...webway bonuses
Probably Frozen Stars.
Not sure I'd want to paint 36 more harlequins though....
Everytime i have tried a 12man unit on foot, it was shot of the table turn 1 (or at least only 3-5 left making it pointless for what i wanted). But 90% the players i play against has long range ignore LoS weapons, so it doesn't matter if i can't be seen, in cover, etc.. My srea does play with more heavy terrain tho as the few local shops can field up to 12 tables full of terrain, including buildings, walls, forest/woods, literally everything you can think of, so our players/TO's tend to love it and add more than what you see at large events like NOVA and LVO.
11-point troupes are a hugely inefficient target for indirect shooting. If someone has enough indirect shooting to be a big threat to a unit with a 4++ and -1 to wound (3++ if you went first along with probably either a -1 to hit a 6+++) that costs only 11 per model, you presumably *want* them shooting at your big troupe unit, not at something valuable like your bikes or boats.
If you do the math, even against the base profile of 4++ and -1 to wound, a thunderfire cannon kills all of 1.67 troupes on average in one round of shooting. If they have reroll 1s for hits and wounds, it's still only 2 models. That's 22 points per round of shooting.
To give some reference, that is terrible efficiency. Against ork boyz, for example, a TFC will instead kill 6 boyz, which is is 43 points. Literally twice as efficient.
I wonder what would be the best masque to take for a full n foot harlie list (3x12 troupe, no upgrades...well, maybe on 2-3 models), shadowseer, troupe master.
You've already got the -1 to wound, reroll wounds in assault, 4+ invuln, etc,
Frozen stars...capitalize on all of the attacks, especially if throw in the +1 to wound strat, and WT for 6+++
Dreaming Shaodw...mitigate morale.
Veiled Path...webway bonuses
Probably Frozen Stars.
Not sure I'd want to paint 36 more harlequins though....
Most people seem to run them frozen stars. I think it mostly depends on what else you want to do with the detachment. If you want to do a foot-only detachment, IMO either dreaming shadow with a curtainfall jester, or midnight sorrow with a solitaire. The 6 inch consolidate from midnight sorrow is actually pretty amazing on minimum-points foot harles because it makes it almost impossible to avoid a wrap, and a solitaire with the ability to fight on death is extremely useful as well.
Frozen stars really only makes you better at killing stuff, so it isn't my favorite for a detachment that isn't good at that.
I normally take 1 detachment that is mixed just for Stratagems, the traits don't matter compare to the stratagems, a unit to stop OW, a unit to get +1 to wound, a unit to heroic, etc.. , FYI heroic from behind a wall is really strong lol, so if they do not have ignore Los weapons you can force someone to move more than 6" away from the wall or they are getting hereoic on.
I don't like mixed detachments from a flavor point of view, so I don't run them. But yeah, harlequins are one of the few factions where the traits are of low enough power relative to the stratagems that it can make a lot of sense from a pure power perspective, especially if you can devote a detachment to it specifically.
I've got a batallion of harlies that I like to run alongside my other eldar (usually drukhari, sometimes craftworlders). I generally run three squads in star weavers with a couple of fusion pistols and a lot of caresses or kisses. I generally back them up with a Shadow Seer, Troupe Master, and Solitaire.
The issue I keep running into is that charging with multiple harlie units usually just results in my opponent spend 2CP and interrupting to kill the second harlie squad before it swings. So it feels like I'm doing something wrong by letting my semi-expensive clown units get beaten up, but surely it's not a great idea to have multiple harlequin units hanging back in their transports and *not* charging.
Any tips on how to *not* turn charging multiple squishy clowns into a suicide mission?
I never really multi-charge melee units unless i know i can survive or if its Bikes and let the Troupes go first. Or have so much threat that even if they kill off 1 Troupe unit the other 3-4 meleeing units will make up for it.
If you are going to multi-charge or plan on it with lots of Troupes you really need to have a Shadowseer and at least a -1 to hit somewhere. -1 to be hit and wound could really save them. also if you are only rolling 7-8 wounds, roll them 1 by 1 and on the first death use 1 CP to make them 3++.
That doesn't work, the strat is used at the end of the phase and then applies for the rest of the turn, not after taking a wound. It does work on overwatch, though with only 5 in the unit, it isn't worth deliberately failing an overwatch save by taking it on the 6+ armor save to trigger, like it is in a 12-man unit. Nor is it arguably worth using even if you do take a wound from overwatch anyway...1CP to improve the save on 4 1W models from a 4++ to a 3++ isn't a very good return.
As to advice...I'm having a little trouble following. What exactly are you charging that has the potential to weather the attacks from one unit then interrupt and have enough left in the tank to wipe a second unit? If they've got something that strong in combat...you are probably doing the wrong thing by charging it in the first place, at least without softening it up significantly first.
Or do you mean you're charging multiple different units with multiple different units of harles, all of which are threatening enough in combat to kill your harles if they strike first? If so...just don't do that? Target something else instead. Unless their whole army is combat, there should be a number of weaker, more tempting targets you'd be better going after instead.
5-man troupe squads are not deadly enough to really go toe to toe with anything in combat, whether they're striking first or not. So they shouldn't be used that way. Use them to bully stuff that doesn't want to be in combat...they're not going to do well thrown into combat specialists.
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