Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!

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**wuestenfux**

Amishprn86 wrote:
CA point changes

Shadowseer: -15
Troupe Master: -10
Troupe: -2
Skyweaver: -5
Starweaver: -19
Voidweaver: -13
Nuero disruptor: -5
Prismatic cannon: -5

Voidweavers are 90pts each option, Neuro pistols still not really worth it, Troupes, HQ's going down is great and well needed. Skyweavers worth it more than ever with 5pts drop, without weapons a 6man unit of HWC is now 240pts, amazing deal. Finally Starweavers are where they should have been at.

Overall its all good, hopefully we get some new rules with PA soon, otherwise we just got a minor boost b.c other armies are also getting points drops but also added rules, so in the long run i feel we are about 10% better in the meta so far (its hard to see the big picture right now).

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Odd, my post said edit but i didnt edit it......

Great news!
Are Voidweavers playable now?
I'd still prefer DE/CW flyers if necessary.

**Sterling191**

90 points in either configuration for a surprisingly durable light gunship. Its a definite maybe.

**vipoid**

Nice to see some point drops for the 'quins.

I think Neuro Disruptors are still outclassed by Fusion Pistols but for 5pts I'll definitely feel a lot better about equipping my Shadowseer with one.

Incidentally, I'm glad to see that the Shadowseer no longer costs more than a Farseer in spite of only having 1 Deny and lacking all their extra casting gubbins.

Also, Starweavers seem fantastic at 80pts.

**popisdead**

VladimirHerzog wrote:

i'm surprised that skyweavers saw any pts drop at all, they were already the best unit in the codex. I wont complain, its only making it easier to splash them in eldar soup.

I'm not an experienced Harlequin player (playing heroes and troupes in Starweavers but having fun locally).

Can someone explain to me the use, load out & build, and benefits of Skyweavers? I'm guessing first turn charge with Zephyr glaives?

Thanks kindly!

**VladimirHerzog**

popisdead wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:

i'm surprised that skyweavers saw any pts drop at all, they were already the best unit in the codex. I wont complain, its only making it easier to splash them in eldar soup.

I'm not an experienced Harlequin player (playing heroes and troupes in Starweavers but having fun locally).

Can someone explain to me the use, load out & build, and benefits of Skyweavers? I'm guessing first turn charge with Zephyr glaives?

Thanks kindly!

Haywire cannons. that is all.

And with the right stratagems, bikes are (pre CA) the strongest unit in the codex.
For 51 pts you get :
T4, W3, 4+, 4++, BS/WS 3+, A3
They have a native -1 to hit,
they can (with the right masque form, soaring spite) Move 16", auto-advance 6" and then have no penalty to shooting.
with zephyglaives they are actually decent at chopping MEQs and GEQs in CC.

Now add stratagems :
1cp : prismatic blur (get a 3++ after advancing)
2cp : lightning fast reactions (additionnal -1 to hit)
1cp : cegorach's jest (shoot at an opponent that fell back this turn)

They become super lethal vehicle hunters that are super tough to kill.

**Amishprn86**

Skyweavers has been the strongest in the codex for a long time now. Thats nothing new.

The great thing is, now units like Starweavers and Troupes are more point costed correctly, if we get some rules in a future release we might be a solid mid tier army without the need for 12 Skyweavers in every list.

And You can play with some CCW on Skyweavers, i have 18 of them but 6 are with weapons, i normally only play with 12 Skyweavers and i have 1 unit with Glaives, the Glaives has work for me in most games, you never know when you just need that little extra bit and a charge will do it. For 36pts i feel its worth it on 1 unit.

I have tried 3 with and 3 without a few times, and it never worked out well. Either go all melee or no melee.

**popisdead**

Thanks kindly folks. I have an average 1k list (mostly original and 2004 era models) but no bikes (yet).

**wuestenfux**

The point discount is rather heavy. I was able to squeeze in three Voidweavers.

Spoiler:

Short version (2000 pts on the dot):

Battalion
Troupe Master w/ kiss, fusion
Yncarne
3x 5 Troupes w/ 5x caress, 2x fusion each
3 Starweavers

Outrider
Shadowseer
2x 6 Skyweavers w/ haywires
1x 4 Skyweavers w/ haywires

Spearhead
Troupe Master w/ kiss, fusion, warlord (starmist raiment)
3 Voidweavers

Masque form: soaring spite.

**dan2026**

What are people's thoughts on Troupes vs Primaris Marines?
Preference on melee weapon?
Or is a perhaps just better to shoot them with fusion pistols?

**wuestenfux**

dan2026 wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Troupes vs Primaris Marines?
Preference on melee weapon?
Or is a perhaps just better to shoot them with fusion pistols?

Well, my approach is to give the Troupe members caresses and 2 members fusion pistols.
If you're already close to shoot the fusion pistols, charge them.
Staying outside and waiting for the return fire is not an option.

**dan2026**

wuestenfux wrote:
dan2026 wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Troupes vs Primaris Marines?
Preference on melee weapon?
Or is a perhaps just better to shoot them with fusion pistols?

Well, my approach is to give the Troupe members caresses and 2 members fusion pistols.
If you're already close to shoot the fusion pistols, charge them.
Staying outside and waiting for the return fire is not an option.

Thanks for the reply.
Do you think the boosted strength and AP of the caress outweighs the D3 damage of the kiss?

**wuestenfux**

dan2026 wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:
dan2026 wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Troupes vs Primaris Marines?
Preference on melee weapon?
Or is a perhaps just better to shoot them with fusion pistols?

Well, my approach is to give the Troupe members caresses and 2 members fusion pistols.
If you're already close to shoot the fusion pistols, charge them.
Staying outside and waiting for the return fire is not an option.

Thanks for the reply.
Do you think the boosted strength and AP of the caress outweighs the D3 damage of the kiss?

Well, I go for hitting on 3+ and volume of attacks.
D3 is nothing really to rely on.

**Amishprn86**

Caress is just better, +1 to wound on T4, an additional -1AP, that is better than a D3.

**Twilight Pathways**

Kisses do more wounds to Primaris (0.33 per attack vs 0.29 for caresses).

**Trashpanda**

Well for me, so long as they don't interrupt, primaris die just fine to any of the weapon options (except blades, I don't run blades), it's keeping the troupe alive after you've murdered the marines that's the problem.

**Jonke**

Twilight Pathways wrote:
Kisses do more wounds to Primaris (0.33 per attack vs 0.29 for caresses).

Your math is off, since kisses at most can do 2 damage to primaris (because they have 2 wounds) you can't average d3 to 2.

If my math is correct kisses averages 0,24 damage per attack against primaris, less than caresses. It gets complicated because a damage roll of 2 or 3 preceded by a 1 only inflicts 1 damage.

**Amishprn86**

Yeah, combine with only Str 4 compare to str 5, and -1ap compare to -2ap.

3 Quins w/ Kiss; 12 attacks, 3+ to hit (8 hits), 4+ to wound (4 wounds), 4+ save (2 failed saves), that'll be at minimum kill 1 Primaris, at max kill 2.

3 quins w/ Caress; 12 attacks, 3+ to hit (8 hits) 3+ to wounds 5.33 wounds), 5+ save (3.5 failed saves) at minimum you kill 1.5, at max you kill 2.

So both can kill 2, but a Caress has a better chance to do more damage, and will on average deal 1 more wound.

**the_scotsman**

Twilight Pathways wrote:
Kisses do more wounds to Primaris (0.33 per attack vs 0.29 for caresses).

The problem is that the average math ignores that you lose damage each time you roll a 3, and each time you roll a 1. In reality a D2 weapon does vastly more damage to primaris than a Dd3, by mathhammer they are identical.

**tneva82**

the_scotsman wrote:
Twilight Pathways wrote:
Kisses do more wounds to Primaris (0.33 per attack vs 0.29 for caresses).

The problem is that the average math ignores that you lose damage each time you roll a 3, and each time you roll a 1. In reality a D2 weapon does vastly more damage to primaris than a Dd3, by mathhammer they are identical.

Yep this. With 2 wound target 3's don't balance out on 2's at all. When you roll 1 next d3 is pointless so you spent 2 attacks killing 1 target and when you roll 3 you wasted one.

For sake of record simulating 10,000 consequtive wounds by d3 damage wounds ended up with around 6643 kills. So more like 1.32 wounds per average.

**mokoshkana**

Unless of course there is a Feel No Pain...

**Niiru**

So I'm in a friendly league, where we are running a cityfight-style ruleset. 60mm is the largest base size allowed, lots of narrow corridors and rooms, lots of short LOS. 750-points lists, and limited CP use.

So I am thinking of going Eldar, possible a spirit host with lots of wraiths, but I'm also considering Harlequins as i've always loved them but rarely had the opportunity to make full use of them.

Starweavers are still fine to use (handy 60mm base size) but considering the close quarters and not needing protection from any long range shooting, I'm not sure they're quite worth their points vs more Players?

Also Skyweavers... with only a few dreadnoughts likely to make an appearance, are these guys actually going to put in work against all the custodes and terminators that seem to be being fielded?

Pretty much need to come up with a list that is going to manage to hang in against potential hordes (though hordes get stuck in tight spaces which is handy) and terminators/custodes/elites.

Any suggestions?

Thinking that large troupe squads with Dreaming Shadow for the morale protection might be ok, but the Sentinels part of the trait seems a bit... not good for them. Unless they all have fusion pistols. The 1 attack in melee seems pretty rubbish. Frozen stars for universal +1 attacks might be better, but then I'd need to use min-squads maybe? So less coverage with my limited stratagems.

Voidweavers may actually be decent, with their variable profiles?

Be interested to hear what people suggest. Thanks

**Amishprn86**

Troupes would LOVE that playstyle, go troupe heavy with some character like DJ's, and don't take Voidweavers, just take more troupes with FP's lol. You could also take 2 Skyweavers (Its better than voidweavers still sadly).

With all the LoS blocking, moving through terrain will be so fun.

**Niiru**

Amishprn86 wrote:
Troupes would LOVE that playstyle, go troupe heavy with some character like DJ's, and don't take Voidweavers, just take more troupes with FP's lol. You could also take 2 Skyweavers (Its better than voidweavers still sadly).

With all the LoS blocking, moving through terrain will be so fun.

One issue I've realised though, is that in this version of the game overwatch defaults to a 5+ instead of 6. So the Troupes will be getting gunned down by overwatch. I know you can use the Raiment to turn a character into a howling banshee, but not sure if that's quite enough. Might be ok though.

Any tips as to best options for Trait / Relic / Warlord trait?

Edit: Also, are two skyweavers actually better than a voidweaver? Same wounds, void has more toughness, same -1 to hit. Haywires are great vs vehicles but seem weak against infantry, while voidweaver would have less hits but easier to wounds. I guess the skyweavers would be better in melee though with the glaives, but in that case should they just take skurikens instead of haywire?

**Amishprn86**

Charge through walls hahahaha.

And Skyweavers are also able to get 3++ more easily, they also can melee for still cheaper points. You just lose out on a few shots.

Traits? Its up to your playstyle, are you using pistols or not? are you focusing on melee or not? Do you want stratagems to stop OW or not?

IDK for a terrain heavy table and with that OW, maybe a Starmist TM with A foot in the Future (Very under rated honestly, +1" to, Heroic, pile in, consolidate, advance, and charges, also gives +2" to movements) With those 2 things he is now a Killing machine that can travel almost anywhere, its great for small tables and tight terrain. One of my favorite ways to play a TM.

**Niiru**

Amishprn86 wrote:
Charge through walls hahahaha.

And Skyweavers are also able to get 3++ more easily, they also can melee for still cheaper points. You just lose out on a few shots.

Traits? Its up to your playstyle, are you using pistols or not? are you focusing on melee or not? Do you want stratagems to stop OW or not?

IDK for a terrain heavy table and with that OW, maybe a Starmist TM with A foot in the Future (Very under rated honestly, +1" to, Heroic, pile in, consolidate, advance, and charges, also gives +2" to movements) With those 2 things he is now a Killing machine that can travel almost anywhere, its great for small tables and tight terrain. One of my favorite ways to play a TM.

As the table is essentially 'indoors' (think spaceships like space hulk) I don't think you can actually go 'over' the walls. Some maps do have obstacles in rooms, like big computer banks or whatever, but the walls have doors. So the flip belts are still useful for skipping past units and over some obstacles, but not so much for shortcuts!

I lose the idea of a bunch of fusion pistols, but it seems like Players strength is really in their melee. I'd probably have troupes with some caress/fusion models, and then have a couple of cheap blade/shuriken models as well as ablative wounds to keep the unit cheaper, as a few will die on the approach / overwatch anyway.

There's a rule in this game that all 'roll for number of shots' weapons get to reroll that dice if you wish. so flamers and explosives become better. I'm still not sure if haywire will beat voidweavers though. I think they do work out slightly ahead of shuriken cannons, mathwise...?

**Amishprn86**

If you get to re-roll the number of shots, thats 2D6 re-roll vs 1D6+6, so a Voidweaver willd o more damage to infantry and less to vehicles, the difference is in Skyweavers is what else they can do, which is melee. They can move + advance + shoot + charge +fallback + shoot + charge. You get that for less points than a voidweaver, its also 2 models over 1, so 2D weapons are wasted on Skyweavers.

**Niiru**

Amishprn86 wrote:
If you get to re-roll the number of shots, thats 2D6 re-roll vs 1D6+6, so a Voidweaver willd o more damage to infantry and less to vehicles, the difference is in Skyweavers is what else they can do, which is melee. They can move + advance + shoot + charge +fallback + shoot + charge. You get that for less points than a voidweaver, its also 2 models over 1, so 2D weapons are wasted on Skyweavers.

I actually completely forgot about the 2x cannons on the Voidweaver, that does make them a lot better in comparison. But also true, the skyweavers get to do melee.

**mokoshkana**

Amishprn86 wrote:
Charge through walls hahahaha.

Flip belts don't let the models ignore the height anymore, unless I am missing something.

Per FAQ:

‘During the Movement phase, models in this unit can move across models as if they were not there, and when moving across terrain features, vertical distance is not counted against the total these models can move (i.e. moving vertically is free for these models in the Movement phase). During the Charge phase, models in this unit can move across models (other than Buildings) as if they were not there.

Or were you suggesting that he charge over the wall (i.e. rolling enough distance to get up and over)?

**Amishprn86**

mokoshkana wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
Charge through walls hahahaha.
Flip belts don't let the models ignore the height anymore, unless I am missing something.

Per FAQ:

‘During the Movement phase, models in this unit can move across models as if they were not there, and when moving across terrain features, vertical distance is not counted against the total these models can move (i.e. moving vertically is free for these models in the Movement phase). During the Charge phase, models in this unit can move across models (other than Buildings) as if they were not there.

Or were you suggesting that he charge over the wall (i.e. rolling enough distance to get up and over)?

Core terrain rules infantry can charge through walls.

Edit: You could declare the walls as impassible, he would need to check, but in general when declaring a terrain feature is a wall infantry are no allowed to charge and fight though walls.

**Niiru**

Amishprn86 wrote:
mokoshkana wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
Charge through walls hahahaha.
Flip belts don't let the models ignore the height anymore, unless I am missing something.

Per FAQ:

‘During the Movement phase, models in this unit can move across models as if they were not there, and when moving across terrain features, vertical distance is not counted against the total these models can move (i.e. moving vertically is free for these models in the Movement phase). During the Charge phase, models in this unit can move across models (other than Buildings) as if they were not there.

Or were you suggesting that he charge over the wall (i.e. rolling enough distance to get up and over)?

Core terrain rules infantry can charge through walls.

Edit: You could declare the walls as impassible, he would need to check, but in general when declaring a terrain feature is a wall infantry are no allowed to charge and fight though walls.

We have been playing the walls as being impassable/impenetrable. Some of the walls don't even have playable space behind them. But there was no reason for you to know that, I didn't think to actually specify.

List I'm currently considering -

Silent Shroud 750pts

Shadowseer , Shards of Light + another power (not sure which yet). (relic- possibly with Laughing Gods Eye)
Troupe Master, Fusion pistol (possibly with Starmist Raiment)

Troupe x12, 7x Caresses
Troupe x12, 7x Caresses
Troupe x5, naked (character protection and objective grabber)

Death Jester
Solitaire, Rose

Not sure which of the HQ's end up with a relic yet. The gods eye will help with keeping my clowns from suffering to morale, but then the starmist raiment gives me two sources of anti-overwatch in this list, which could be pretty potent by itself.

DJ + a nearby troupe + Shards can give me -4 to enemy morale relatively easily (occasionally -6 due to some of the game rules working in my favour), which may end up just making the opponent burn 2cp but that's pretty powerful in itself in small games.

Considering dropping the DJ for something else though. Not sure.

Also not sure which second psychic power I should take, or which of those relics is overall the best to have in this list. Having limited CP is a pain. I -could- afford to take both relics.. but then I'd not be able to use the Knife stratagem, at which point I'd likely be better off as Frozen Stars.