Harlequins Codex Tactics - The Laughing God play time!

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**Niiru**

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
What, if anything, do Harlies use as their "anchor piece"? That is a heavy but mobile unit like a Wraithlord or a Dreadnaught that holds a position and can still deal out serious damage.

A wraithlord? Or a unit of wraithblades with shields?

Some Talos maybe?

I'm assuming your question was after a 'pure harlequins' choice though... which is trickier. Maybe a big unit of skyweavers or a big Troupe, with some of the stratagem buffs? Believe they can get a 3++ and a -1 to hit (between stratagem and psychic buff), which isn't bad. Better than Wraithguard in many ways, and cheaper, the only issue being they have very bad toughness.

**Amishprn86**

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
What, if anything, do Harlies use as their "anchor piece"? That is a heavy but mobile unit like a Wraithlord or a Dreadnaught that holds a position and can still deal out serious damage.

As for allies? Coven, CWE vehicles, etc.. As pure quins just more bikes lol.

**wuestenfux**

Amishprn86 wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
What, if anything, do Harlies use as their "anchor piece"? That is a heavy but mobile unit like a Wraithlord or a Dreadnaught that holds a position and can still deal out serious damage.

As for allies? Coven, CWE vehicles, etc.. As pure quins just more bikes lol.

Seconded.
I'd go for Skyweavers. Cannot have enough of them.

**tulun**

Couple lists I’m looking at. Would love feedback. New to the clowns.

I'd probably drop the player of light (getting too low on CP) but in the Wraithseer list I'd probably give it Mythical role so it gets pseudo expert crafters.

With Wraithguard

Spoiler:

Dire avengers

Spoiler:

**Leo_the_Rat**

Just as a side question- how many skyweavers equal a dreadnaught survival wise and offense wise?

**Niiru**

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Just as a side question- how many skyweavers equal a dreadnaught survival wise and offense wise?

I would also like to know this

**popisdead**

Niiru wrote:
Seconded.
I'd go for Skyweavers. Cannot have enough of them.

I am not certain you cannot have enough. 6 might be a natural cap to start at least.

tulun wrote:Couple lists I’m looking at. Would love feedback. New to the clowns.

...
Dire avengers

I've been thinking about Asurmen and DAs as well but also some Wave Serpents. Just cause I love Phoenix Lords, WSs are still good durable for objectives (granted we'll natively see more AT I suspect), and DAs. I would recommend just getting going on 1k. Unless you are throwing yourself into tournament and competing for top tier understand what you have and start with that. Figure it out.

But yeah,.. 6 Bikes is a great option to add. They are definitely a core component for a competitive army.

**tulun**

popisdead wrote:
Niiru wrote:
Seconded.
I'd go for Skyweavers. Cannot have enough of them.

I am not certain you cannot have enough. 6 might be a natural cap to start at least.

tulun wrote:Couple lists I’m looking at. Would love feedback. New to the clowns.

...
Dire avengers

I've been thinking about Asurmen and DAs as well but also some Wave Serpents. Just cause I love Phoenix Lords, WSs are still good durable for objectives (granted we'll natively see more AT I suspect), and DAs. I would recommend just getting going on 1k. Unless you are throwing yourself into tournament and competing for top tier understand what you have and start with that. Figure it out.

But yeah,.. 6 Bikes is a great option to add. They are definitely a core component for a competitive army.

Yeah, I'm building / painting some DAs. I think DAs / wave serpents are great objective campers. Asurmen giving them that 4++ is tempting, though, but I wouldn't field him if you're just tossing them in a wave serpent anyway. He costs as much as one. On the ground though, he can chill with a core of them and push a side.

I think Asurmen with 22" Shuriken Catapults actually makes the walking ones interesting. Yeah, they die to small arms fire, but I can easily out range 24" guns (I can move, advance, and shoot), so I will typically get the first volley. If I was still at 18", this strat wouldn't work.
I'll probably give it a try, as I've loved Dire Avengers since 3rd/4th edition (I had a CWE back then). Love the models, they've just always seemed to suck.

On bikes:

The main concern I have is that I can only protect 1 bike unit a round with fire and fade. I suppose I could give the second squad a 3++, but it seems better to not get targeted at all.

If you're trying to be cagey / patient, how easy is it to protect that second (or 3rd) bike squad?

**Hecaton**

Hey all, as someone who hasn't played since 3e, and who is thinking about getting back into the game with Harlequins, what should I be buying that's decent in the current meta? Skyweavers seem to be in, how should I be equipping/modeling them? Glaives or bolas? Shuriken or Haywire?

**Amishprn86**

3 Boxes of Troupes, 12 Skyweavers, a Death Jester, a Shadowseer, and a Solitaire is the perfect starting points.

Your Troupe boxes actually comes with Troupe Masters, you'll get 3, make sure 1 has a Power sword/Harlequin blade (they look 99% the same, so it doesn't matter) so you can take the Relic sword, the other 2 TM's is w/e you want.

You might want 1-3 Starweavers as well, they are always nice.

No matter what start with 2-3 boxes of Bikes, 1 Troupe box, and a Shadowseer, at least for a 500pt game.

**Hecaton**

Amishprn86 wrote:
3 Boxes of Troupes, 12 Skyweavers, a Death Jester, a Shadowseer, and a Solitaire is the perfect starting points.

Your Troupe boxes actually comes with Troupe Masters, you'll get 3, make sure 1 has a Power sword/Harlequin blade (they look 99% the same, so it doesn't matter) so you can take the Relic sword, the other 2 TM's is w/e you want.

You might want 1-3 Starweavers as well, they are always nice.

No matter what start with 2-3 boxes of Bikes, 1 Troupe box, and a Shadowseer, at least for a 500pt game.

Aight, people elsewhere are telling me Voidweavers are a suboptimal unit for the current state of the game? And what's the optimal loadout for Skyweavers - Haywire & Glaive?

**Amishprn86**

Yes HWC and Glaive and Voidweavers are sub.

**Leo_the_Rat**

I was told a Contemptor Dreadnaught with plasma cannons and cyclone missile launcher runs around 170 points. It is T7 with 10 wounds. For about the same thing we would get 3 skyweavers (150-165 points depending on glaives or not). That would net us T4 and 9 wounds. I don't know the math, or even how to figure it out but I'm pretty sure that it would take more than 9 T4 wounds to equal 10 T7 wounds.

My next question would be who would win the fight between the dread and the squad of 3 bikes. I'm pretty sure that the bikes could get the initial volley but I'd love to know what happens in both instances.

My initial impression is that bikes are not the equal to other armies heavy hitters (on a point for point basis).

**tulun**

List if anyone would give feedback

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/790826.page#10891100

**Amishprn86**

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I was told a Contemptor Dreadnaught with plasma cannons and cyclone missile launcher runs around 170 points. It is T7 with 10 wounds. For about the same thing we would get 3 skyweavers (150-165 points depending on glaives or not). That would net us T4 and 9 wounds. I don't know the math, or even how to figure it out but I'm pretty sure that it would take more than 9 T4 wounds to equal 10 T7 wounds.

My next question would be who would win the fight between the dread and the squad of 3 bikes. I'm pretty sure that the bikes could get the initial volley but I'd love to know what happens in both instances.

My initial impression is that bikes are not the equal to other armies heavy hitters (on a point for point basis).

Bikes also are -1 to hit and a 4++, that can get a 3++ without hero support, also vs 2 and maybe D6 damage weapons those will actually waste damage as well compare to on the Dread its not. In a 1 to 1 match up the Skyweavers should win on the table with their movement, anti-tank shooting, they can FnF and stay out of some of the damage of the Dread,etc..

But the Contemptor Dreadnaught however doesn't have a plasma, that is the Relic Contemptor Dreadnaught, which costs more and is 12 wounds, the Contemptor Dreadnaught has a 24" 6 shots str 7 1D gun, and a Multi Melta. The Relic Contemptor Dreadnaught can have 2 Plasma weapon and ML for 170pts, so I think you meant Relic Contemptor Dreadnaught. So its 12 wounds vs 9 lol. But i think the Bikes still has the upper hand, 3+ to hit on average of 4 dice shooting you isn't that scary when you also have a 3++ and 2 wounds to kill a bike. I would be worried about 2 Kheres assault cannon's, its 12 shots, so more likely to get wounds through, or 2 Twin autocannons for 8 shots at 2D.

**Leo_the_Rat**

Thanks for the clarification and the info. I must have misread the listing that I was basing my info on.

**wuestenfux**

Interesting list of M. Truell, 4th place, at the Vanguard Tactics Grand Series:

Spoiler:

**Niiru**

Page 363 – Rare Rules
Add the following sub-section:
SCORING ADDITIONAL HITS
When a model makes an attack, some rules will let that attack
score one or more additional hits on a particular hit roll (e.g.
‘each time an attack is made with this weapon, an unmodified
hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit’). If the attacking model is
also benefiting from any other rules that trigger on a particular
hit roll (e.g. ‘each time an attack is made with this weapon,
an unmodified hit roll of 6 automatically wounds the target’),
then only the original attack benefits from those rules. If any
additional hits are scored as the result of a particular hit roll,
those additional hits are not considered to have been made with
any hit roll – they simply hit the target and you must continue
the attack sequence for them (i.e. make a wound roll).

Nerf to death jesters there then, especially dreaming shadow death jesters and/or jest inescapable jesters.

**Niiru**

What is the preferred unit size for Troupes on foot?

I know that, in theory, having a squad of 10 allows for more efficient use of the blur strat for 3++, but it also means its much more likely to end up losing a bunch of models to morale (and blasts).

As Frozen Stars, I haven't yet found a real need for more attacks against most units. Although making a chain to aura buffs is certainly something to keep in mind.

Any tips/advice?

**wuestenfux**

Have a look at the battle report Admech vs. Harlies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4liRJpfmdk

Harlie army was rather straightforward with 5x 5 Troups, 3 transports, 3x 6 Skyweavers, 2 DJs and whatnot.

If you watch closely in the opening of the game, there was one Skyweaver unit to shoot and the two DJs,
while the army advanced towards midfield.

This is a bad construction of army if you ask me as there is almost no supporting fire to whittle down the enemy.

Here a soup list would be much better with Skyweavers having a specific role of approaching along the flanks or moving towards the center for early scoring.

Actually, it was poor play by Adrian. He held two bike units back and lost half the bikes for no real gain.

**Amishprn86**

I watch these guys all the time, and i hated this batrep, its one of their worst ones IMO.

But it is a good video to watch to see that castling isn't good and you need to play the objectives now in 9th.

**wuestenfux**

Amishprn86 wrote:
I watch these guys all the time, and i hated this batrep, its one of their worst ones IMO.

But it is a good video to watch to see that castling isn't good and you need to play the objectives now in 9th.

Adrian moved all three Skyweaver units forward.
One in the open for shooting and fire & fade behind ruins and the other two behind ruins.
Obviously it would have been better to keep the two units behind ruins in his deployment zone in T1.
Then he wouldn't have lost half of his bikers.

**Amishprn86**

They had a convo saying he can not see his bikes, thats why he did it (if its the part I am remembering I watch it when it first came out) and the other player "I can see them" he was a good sport and was like "Oh..Oh? you can? ok, its ok go ahead"

**Niiru**

So what would the Harlequin response be to the new updates?

Standard 18pt tactical marines (cheaper than a Player) now has 2W and comes with 30" bolter. Chainswords for them are also now AP-1 (thought that, at least, won't affect harlequins much).

Terminators now 3W each. So blightlords are now 3W 2+/5++/5+++.

Deathwing get access to 2+/4++/5+++ with 3w per model.

heavy bolters now do D2, and thunderhammers D4.

**Amishprn86**

Tac marines bolter is still 24" they still have a basic bolter at least.

Terminators needed to go up in survivability, 100% for sure and it was a fine change for them.

But as for quins? The worst change is the few popular guns that are not 2D instead of 1D, and another set of popular guns are Str 5 over str 4. This means bikes and vehicles are weaker to those. And some guns are now +1, +2, or even double the shots, this is what will kill us. The combine of these 3 on a army is the killer, not the added wounds.

Over all nothing really changed as far as what we can do, watch for beta strikes, and play the missions.

**tulun**

If you were to take a 2nd troupe master, would you just give it a Caress, given you're probably giving the first Troupe Master Twilight fang?

**Niiru**

Amishprn86 wrote:
Tac marines bolter is still 24" they still have a basic bolter at least.

Terminators needed to go up in survivability, 100% for sure and it was a fine change for them.

But as for quins? The worst change is the few popular guns that are not 2D instead of 1D, and another set of popular guns are Str 5 over str 4. This means bikes and vehicles are weaker to those. And some guns are now +1, +2, or even double the shots, this is what will kill us. The combine of these 3 on a army is the killer, not the added wounds.

Over all nothing really changed as far as what we can do, watch for beta strikes, and play the missions.

Bolter was changed to 30" wasn't it? Pretty sure that was one of the releases. I may be mistaken.

**wuestenfux**

Well, the battle report Harlies vs. Tallarn is one of the best I've seen in the 9th.

The Harlie player had the right tactics in the game opening,
with Troupes staying inside the transports and shooting their fusion pistols, and
Skyweavers moving forward (one with double movement) to bring down tanks.

**Amishprn86**

Niiru wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
Tac marines bolter is still 24" they still have a basic bolter at least.

Terminators needed to go up in survivability, 100% for sure and it was a fine change for them.

But as for quins? The worst change is the few popular guns that are not 2D instead of 1D, and another set of popular guns are Str 5 over str 4. This means bikes and vehicles are weaker to those. And some guns are now +1, +2, or even double the shots, this is what will kill us. The combine of these 3 on a army is the killer, not the added wounds.

Over all nothing really changed as far as what we can do, watch for beta strikes, and play the missions.

Bolter was changed to 30" wasn't it? Pretty sure that was one of the releases. I may be mistaken.

I've not seen that anywhere. Intercessors are 30" but they have Bolt Rifles not Bolt guns.

**Niiru**

Amishprn86 wrote:
Niiru wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
Tac marines bolter is still 24" they still have a basic bolter at least.

Terminators needed to go up in survivability, 100% for sure and it was a fine change for them.

But as for quins? The worst change is the few popular guns that are not 2D instead of 1D, and another set of popular guns are Str 5 over str 4. This means bikes and vehicles are weaker to those. And some guns are now +1, +2, or even double the shots, this is what will kill us. The combine of these 3 on a army is the killer, not the added wounds.

Over all nothing really changed as far as what we can do, watch for beta strikes, and play the missions.

Bolter was changed to 30" wasn't it? Pretty sure that was one of the releases. I may be mistaken.

I've not seen that anywhere. Intercessors are 30" but they have Bolt Rifles not Bolt guns.

Check the datasheet for the veterans. 30" boltguns. Could be they're being given a special variant of the boltgun, but the picture appears to be standard.

On another note, do 5-man MSU footslogging troupes work, or do they do better with a bunch of ablative wounds?