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So Soaring Spite can back a turn 1 Skyweaver charge up with a supporting warlord now? For instance a Shadowseer projecting a -1 to wound and FNP aura?

And when the opponent tries backing up from those Skyweavers the next turn they either eat a volley of Shuriken and Star-Bolas fire or the cannons and on-board pistols of your supporting Starweaver?

That's a little bit crazy.

 rollawaythestone wrote:
Some excellent tricks for a Soaring Spite warlord.

Two Phantasmancy powers for the Shadowseer is a must! Definitely a must needed buff. Two different -1 to hit powers is pretty good as well.

Re-roll charge Warlord Trait has my eye.

I also like the "Chapter Master" upgrade stratagem. Re-roll hits of 1 aura is tempting to go along w/ re-roll all wound rolls.

The relics are meh - but fun. The Soaring Spite relic has some utility though.

Stratagems are shaping up to be pretty useful. I imagine using Lightning Fast Reactions, Prismatic Blur, and Isha's Weeping every turn for every game. At 1 CP (LFR is actually 2CP) each you can spread those defensive buffs around.

Completely agree with this, the 2 Powers will just be amazing, TM Upgrade as well. These 2 things already made me happy. The relics are neat and the large number of attacks shooting ones will have help from a leaked stratagem that lets them hit more times, so i could see a pseudo sniper character being viable , the stratagem is "Use this stratagem in your shooting phases. Select a Dreaming shadow character from your army. Until the end of this phases, each successful hit roll made cuases 2 hits, a hit roll of 6+ cuases 3 hits instead", so Crescendo might be worth it if you roll a 5 or 6 on the hits. But ersonally i cant wait to see the rest of the WL traits and Relics.

Its shaping up to be nice, the ability to have 2 -1 to hits is going to help as well.

 rollawaythestone wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Eh, the -1 powers are situational to me:
Fog of Dreams (WC7) Only works on one enemy unit
Veil of Tears (WC7) Only works on one friendly unit
So in the best of circumstances, one Troupe can be a -1 across the board and a -2 against one specific unit. Veil is definitely superior to Fog though. Although, they both work in shooting and melee, so that makes them a bit better.

.. and can then pop Lightning Fast Reactions for an additional -1 to hit. All our bikes and transports have a native -1 to hit as well. Viel only targets Infantry, but the bikes and transports can benefit from Fog.

Fog only works on Infantry.

Lithanial wrote:
So Soaring Spite can back a turn 1 Skyweaver charge up with a supporting warlord now? For instance a Shadowseer projecting a -1 to wound and FNP aura?

And when the opponent tries backing up from those Skyweavers the next turn they either eat a volley of Shuriken and Star-Bolas fire or the cannons and on-board pistols of your supporting Starweaver?

That's a little bit crazy.

The -1 to wound only works on infantry.
Troupes in Starweavers can't use the shoot-after-fallback stratagem. They're not on the battlefield, so the unit falling back isn't falling back from them. And they can't be targeted by an ability anyway (unless it specifically says it affects units in transports).

Heroes Path can be used in any movement phase. Top of your opponents turn you can scatter your characters. Pretty sneaky.

 rollawaythestone wrote:
Heroes Path can be used in any movement phase. Top of your opponents turn you can scatter your characters. Pretty sneaky.

The problem is keeping the Solitaire within 6" of the other 2.... DJ wants to stay out of combat and the other 2 in combat or supporting combat.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 rollawaythestone wrote:
Heroes Path can be used in any movement phase. Top of your opponents turn you can scatter your characters. Pretty sneaky.

The problem is keeping the Solitaire within 6" of the other 2.... DJ wants to stay out of combat and the other 2 in combat or supporting combat.

Yes true, you can also start them all next to each other Turn 1 and scatter them across the board.

Heroes' Path could be really useful for slingshotting a transport up the board. You can advance the transport then set up the Shadowseer 3" behind it to cast twilight pathways. The fact that the 3 characters don't have to end up together, only start together, gives a ton of options.

How have you all been building your armies lately - and what big changes will you be making? I definitely think two battalions will be needed to maximize those command points - which is a lot of starweavers/troupes running around (which is fine w/ me!). But in the lists i'm building i'm having a hard time fitting in Skyweavers alongside the 6 troupe slots.

 rollawaythestone wrote:
How have you all been building your armies lately - and what big changes will you be making? I definitely think two battalions will be needed to maximize those command points - which is a lot of starweavers/troupes running around (which is fine w/ me!). But in the lists i'm building i'm having a hard time fitting in Skyweavers alongside the 6 troupe slots.

Im still taking 1 Battalion, the only thing that changed for me is i might add a DJ or 2 and another Skyweaver for 4 instead of 3. I only play with 3 Troupe units normally.

But i am wanting to try a more aggressive troupe list now with with Midnight Sorrow or Frozen Stars, and i want to try a Soaring Spite list with 4-6 units of FP Troupes, no melee weapons and no Void/Skyweavers

 rollawaythestone wrote:
How have you all been building your armies lately - and what big changes will you be making? I definitely think two battalions will be needed to maximize those command points - which is a lot of starweavers/troupes running around (which is fine w/ me!). But in the lists i'm building i'm having a hard time fitting in Skyweavers alongside the 6 troupe slots.

Troupes with embraces and fusions. A couple troupe masters, and a shadowseer to twilight pathway a Starweaver T1. Then I add models I like but think are pretty bad (i.e. all the other entries).

The Shadowseer got a lot better. Cheaper, and now with two powers. The 6+++ is great all the time, and the -1 to hit will also be used every turn once the troupes get out of the weavers. So I'll probably run two.
The troupe master is getting more expensive, and I suspect it will have the same profile. But unless the melee weapon changed (and that's pretty unlikely), it will still be mandatory to do any real damage to T4+ units in the fight phase.
And then there are the big unknowns: the DJ got cheaper, and it's hinted that its ability changed (although I suspect it's just a -1Ld on top of its current ability), the neuro-disruptor has to be different, so it might become useful, the haywire cannon is also probably different too, and will affect whether or not Skyweavers are any good (but if haywire cannons are good and glaives got a buff, they could be). I still hope the Voidweaver got a massive boost like "shoot twice if moved less than half its movement" or something.

So basically, it's still too early to tell, but the Shadowseer seems like a big winner.

I quite like the idea of silent shroud as part of an eldar soup army. Dropping people's LD is excellent fun and a great approach for dealing with stuff like plaguebearers. They gain models if they roll a 1, which they're a lot less likely to do here.

It does bring up the question of what happens when the PBs have an ability to roll 2 and pick the lowest, but they are forced to roll 2 and pick the highest. The logical thing would be for them to cancel out.

Midnight Sorrow aka if you ever wanted to play tyranid elves.

The troupe master is getting more expensive, and I suspect it will have the same profile. But unless the melee weapon changed (and that's pretty unlikely), it will still be mandatory to do any real damage to T4+ units in the fight phase.

He can use Great Harlequin stratagem. And surely there probably be some more toys in Black Library. Ahriman yet to steal our gak.

Also I think people underestimate TM, he is same as Autarch in price but has more attacks, awesome aura, crescendo, flip belt, can have fusion pistol, kiss, etc.

The Troupe master is indeed very good. His damage/points is a bit lower than troupers (he's roughly 1.5 troupers in melee, and slightly better than a single one at shooting), but a lot more survivable per point, and the aura makes everyone much much better.
The point increase (assuming everything stays the same) is appropriate if you consider troupers to be fairly costed. But I think the increase is too high, because Harlies really need this aura to function in melee. If troupers had access to S6 weapons, or weapons that wound on a fix number, or a pistol that always wounds on 2s with good AP and decent damage (that's actually possible), then it could be fair.

A Troupe master + 5 players has the same point cost than before the codex (assuming you're taking melee weapons).

I didnt take TM's much before and now i dont think i will since Shadowseers are better and cheaper (I like them more).

 rollawaythestone wrote:
How have you all been building your armies lately - and what big changes will you be making? I definitely think two battalions will be needed to maximize those command points - which is a lot of starweavers/troupes running around (which is fine w/ me!). But in the lists i'm building i'm having a hard time fitting in Skyweavers alongside the 6 troupe slots.

I like to go heavy on troops, 5 or 6 all in starweavers plus some skyweavers, this is at 2k... I agree that TM is essential to good troops performance, I always take at least 2... going for two battalions will most certainly mean you'll have to drop either skyweavers or characters other than troop masters from the list...

These spoilers is also making me wonder about foot Harlies. The naked ones are only 13 points and once you account for stratagems they can be about as tough as marines.

2 squads of 10 with 2 shadowseers, each with a few naked ones as ablative wounds.

One squad gets the quicken power for 16+4d6 for an average of 30in should get a charge off somewhere. The other squad advances and gets lightning reflexes, -1 to hit power and the 3++ stratagem after advancing gives them -2 to hit, effectively t4 , a 3++ and maybe even a 6++. Actually quite sturdy.

If they make it they hit way harder than the mounted ones and likely for similar points. They do way worse with fusion pistols though

Frowny wrote:
These spoilers is also making me wonder about foot Harlies. The naked ones are only 13 points and once you account for stratagems they can be about as tough as marines.

2 squads of 10 with 2 shadowseers, each with a few naked ones as ablative wounds.

One squad gets the quicken power for 16+4d6 for an average of 30in should get a charge off somewhere. The other squad advances and gets lightning reflexes, -1 to hit power and the 3++ stratagem after advancing gives them -2 to hit, effectively t4 , a 3++ and maybe even a 6++. Actually quite sturdy.

If they make it they hit way harder than the mounted ones and likely for similar points. They do way worse with fusion pistols though

Yes, you just have to hope you go first. If you go second the two squads can be completely wiped out before doing anything.
But it's going to be a fun thing to try.

Frowny wrote:
These spoilers is also making me wonder about foot Harlies.

make sure there's enough LoS blocking terrain to hop and hide behind, otherwise they're dead turn one

And if you charge two units at the same time, you're almost guaranteed one unit being wiped before they swing.

So much assault hate in the game. I hope there are some more juicy stratagems!

Also, give me a reason to glue a Voidweaver together instead of Starweavers only!

Really excited about soaring spite, a star Weaver moving 28" and then shooting fusion pistols another 6" is going to be great. Having a shadowsun pop out and use her powers will also be great. Really looking forward to seeing all the powers, relics and stratgem.

 Mayk0l wrote:

Also, give me a reason to glue a Voidweaver together instead of Starweavers only!

well, I hope they make prismatic cannons assault not heavy and give some more stratagems voidweavers in squads may benefit from... like Cegorach's jest which may work well for a squad of 3

Welp, I played a test game today using the new points, old rules, and the trait/stratagem for Silent Shroud as well as the new strats and...damn, I'm impressed.

enemy army was a semi-competitive space marine deal, Salamanders with 5 dual assault cannon razors, 5 double-plasma tactical squads, captain with chapter master upgrade, lieutenant, 3 lascannon/autocannon predators, and a bunch of scout bikers. I played a freakshow list with small alaitoc eldar detachments (just to get a farseer and hemlock) and a small Black Heart detachment (to get CPs and agents of vect) and after that it was all harlequins. Troupe master, shadowseer, 2 troupes in weavers (1 kiss troupe 1 embrace troupe each with a couple fusion guns), 6 starweavers, 2 death jesters and a solitaire.

The one thing that really amazed me is just the sheer amount of stuff we can do during the enemy's turn. I lost turn 1, immediately used Heroes Path on a trio of characters. he positioned to focus fire on my harlequin stuff with two killshot predators and 3 assault cannon razorbacks, I used lightning reflexes on my big bike squad and the preds were suddenly hitting on 5s while the razorbacks hit on 6s, and then everything was -1 to wound from the shadowseer - next to nothing died.

Its just insane how much you can deny enemy attempts to do the smart thing and focus their fire. Then on my turn, twilight pathways the bikes right into the middle of everything, burn the silent shroud stratagem, and basically all the clowns and the solitaire get in with no overwatch and blow away the whole flank.

It really pleases me to see an army where I'm not just evaluating the power of their turn 1 alpha stike - I'm super impressed by their ability to shrug off an alpha strike and respond. You can make a few units REALLY REALLY hard to deal with as the harlequins.

the_scotsman wrote:
and then everything was -1 to wound from the shadowseer - next to nothing died.

I don't get it. Turn 1 your troupes should be in the weavers, and characters usually not the closest so not tragetable. So he -1 to wound shouldn't do much…

Its just insane how much you can deny enemy attempts to do the smart thing and focus their fire. Then on my turn, twilight pathways the bikes right into the middle of everything, burn the silent shroud stratagem, and basically all the clowns and the solitaire get in with no overwatch and blow away the whole flank. .

What was the size of your table? And did the shooty space marine guy somehow deployed in the front and moved forward?
With twilight pathways you can indeed slingshot a unit forward (although with the shadowseer out of the transport you loose a good 4" minimum), but you shouldn't be able to put many things if anything in melee T1. Or maybe I didn't understand and that wasn't on your 1st turn. But then I'm surprised your list was able to withstand that much firepower for two turns.

What was in he Black Heart detachment? You mention CPs, so was it a battalion?

fresus wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
and then everything was -1 to wound from the shadowseer - next to nothing died.

I don't get it. Turn 1 your troupes should be in the weavers, and characters usually not the closest so not tragetable. So he -1 to wound shouldn't do much…

Its just insane how much you can deny enemy attempts to do the smart thing and focus their fire. Then on my turn, twilight pathways the bikes right into the middle of everything, burn the silent shroud stratagem, and basically all the clowns and the solitaire get in with no overwatch and blow away the whole flank. .

What was the size of your table? And did the shooty space marine guy somehow deployed in the front and moved forward?
With twilight pathways you can indeed slingshot a unit forward (although with the shadowseer out of the transport you loose a good 4" minimum), but you shouldn't be able to put many things if anything in melee T1. Or maybe I didn't understand and that wasn't on your 1st turn. But then I'm surprised your list was able to withstand that much firepower for two turns.

What was in he Black Heart detachment? You mention CPs, so was it a battalion?

I was slightly mixed up - the -1 to hit and to wound only happened turn 2, when my troupe was getting shot at and did pretty incredibly well. Turn 1, what happened was I had my bikes sitting in a large ruin on one flank, with both starweavers stacked behind the wall of the ruin. This prevented line of sight to the starweavers from all but one of his predators, which had to move in order to gain sight. I had no way to gain drop advantage on him (he had minimum 10 I had 11) so I dropped all my characters out of the transports to force him to deploy basically his whole army before my transports went down.

He moved a razorback around the corner to get an additional shot on where the starweavers were, which was about 20" away from the starweavers. his hope was to kill the starweaver with the pred and the occupants with the razorback. I used lightning reactions on the starweaver (since it was on the leaked stratagem page for the harlequins) when he opened up with the predator, and pretty much everything missed (-1 for moving, -2 from the weaver, +1 from killshot, so still on 5s.) He caused 3 damage, and the razorback caused 2 hitting on 6s. On my turn, the harlequins advanced out of their transport, moving 15" and making an easy charge to get to the razorback, which I had tagged with one of my overwatch-ignoring bikers, engaging the predator with the bulk of the bike squad to kill it.

my drukhari detachment was 2 archons with blaster, 3 5-man kab squads 1 blaster 2 shredders, and 2 raiders. Raiders both lived turn 1 (he didnt want to shoot lascannons into invuln saves, so he tried shooting the lascannons at the Hemlock, doing enough damage to bracket but not kill it).

Firepower dilution by blocking up long range firelanes was pretty much how I survived turn 1 no problem. Turn 2, I'd killed one Razor with lances, one with clowns in melee, and damaged another with miscellaneous shooting. Shredders and splinter fire took care of scout bikes.Turn 2, both raiders died, the hemlock died, the now-empty starweaver got finished off, and a bunch of fire went into the harlequin kiss troupe, but my overall melee pressure was pretty high at that point and I saved 2CP for one more big engage with the bikes.

Codex reviews are up! A few people have posted videos of the complete codex and I am pretty pleased. Overall we have gotten a nice buff to our army. It is a little sad that we have no new units and the units that needed help are still not that great (looking at you voidweavers and deathjesters)

The unit that really masque and strategy that really stands out to me is Soaring Spite. Advance and firing fusion pistols and all guns at full BS is a winner. Their warlord trait to jump out after the vehicle has moved is a great for a shadowseer and their relic to move and additional 6" in a starweaver is great for a troupemaster. I can really see a skyweaver with 5 players and a troupe master all with fusion pistols moving 28" into the enemy and use prismatic blur for a 3+ invul, then when targeted using lightning fast reflexes for -2 to hit. This puts a huge target right in the center of the opponents forces and your crew inside is ready to pop out next turn (and get back in later that turn).

Solitaires are finally the character killers with Cegorach's rose letting their kiss do 3D and letting them re-roll wounds. There is a stratagem that also buffs the character by +2s and +2A if they take a wound in overwatch.

I really don't know how I feel about skyweavers. They feel like they really lack the bite that shining spears have. I am considering adding a ynnari battalion with craftworld eldar. We really want rangers for board control and shinning spears complement our playstyle so well, plus the extra CP.

Did anything change about the Voidweaver?
Dit they at least change the 'heavy' on the gun? I can't understand how they thought that was a good idea in the first place.

Stratagems and relics are nice, but the units are basically still the same.
Voidweavers are still trash. DJ pretty bad too, maybe they're ok with the relic (I'm having a hard time getting the correct profile).
Skyweavers still have 3 attacks and the damage output of a malnourished infant, so they're just expensive chaff you use to tie things up.

Neuro-disruptors are apparently the same. This is just insane.

So it looks like Harlies are still codex: fusion pistols and embraces. Now with a few more tricks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mayk0l wrote:
Did anything change about the Voidweaver?
Dit they at least change the 'heavy' on the gun? I can't understand how they thought that was a good idea in the first place.

Yes, the cannon is now assault. But that's the only change, so it still sucks.

Skyweavers look like Haywire Cannon platforms to me now. They're like a faster, more durable unit of Scourges.

 Mayk0l wrote:
Did anything change about the Voidweaver?
Dit they at least change the 'heavy' on the gun? I can't understand how they thought that was a good idea in the first place.

Yes, they changed both the prismatic cannon and the haywire cannon to be assault.

Well the points costs work out surprisingly well for a small Harlequin stand-alone force or as a bolt-on force to anything larger....

Vanguard Detachment - 750 points

HQ
[125] Shadowseer

Elites
[98] Solitaire - Harlequin's Caress, Harlequins Kiss
[45] Death Jester
[45] Death Jester

Troops
[134] 5 Players - All Kiss/Caress + 3 Fusion Pistol

Fast Attack
[102] 2 Skyweaver - Haywire Cannon & Zephyglaive
[102] 2 Skyweaver - Haywire Cannon & Zephyglaive

Transport
[99] Starweaver
---

I quite like the idea of making a Shadowseer belong to Dreaming Shadow, adding Crescendo and letting loose with "An Example Made" to completely blend a unit with psychics, shuriken and mutliple Phantasm Grenade Launcher hits.