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The situation was this: a single marine stood between my Hammerhead and a Librarian, if the marine hadn't been there the Librarian would have been the closest legal target to my Hammerhead. now the question is, can I use my Smart Missiles to kill the single Marine and then Railgun the IC (my Hamerhead does have a Target Lock) ?
My gut answer is no, as the firing from all the guns on the HH is simultaneous, but what do you all think ?

Thanks in advance

You are correct sir.

Yeah, thats what I thought. Thanks.

I'd give it to you, Although you are correct, the firing takes place at the same time for that unit so, you wouldn't be able to. However, I'd still let you have it out of sportsmanship.

the question i have to ask since i dont play tau is does the target lock allow you to fire at multiple targets i assume it does or else you wouldnt be asking

secondly i have to agree with they all fire at the same time deal and what happens if the mairne doesnt die? heheheehh then your really out of luck!!!!

yes the target lock upgrade allows tau vehicle to fire every weapon system at a different target..

 

as for shooting-yes it does al happen at the same time-in the shooting phase. it is perfectly legal to use various guns and/or units to plink away at a target until it is gone so you can shoot at another.

 

the unit coherency shooting does not apply to tau vehicles as they can select various targets. so yes you can legally attempt to blow away the lone marine or squad with one weapon system at a time and then fire at the now exopsed IC with another if you succeed.

Posted By mughi3 on 09/14/2006 8:13 AM

as for shooting-yes it does al happen at the same time-in the shooting phase. it is perfectly legal to use various guns and/or units to plink away at a target until it is gone so you can shoot at another.

No.  While various units may shoot at different times during the Shooting phase, the rules do not allow you to shoot with a part of a unit or a vehicle, resolve those shots and then come back to that unit or vehicle and fire previously unfired weaponry.

Posted By Ghaz on 09/14/2006 9:16 AM

Posted By mughi3 on 09/14/2006 8:13 AM

as for shooting-yes it does al happen at the same time-in the shooting phase. it is perfectly legal to use various guns and/or units to plink away at a target until it is gone so you can shoot at another.

No.  While various units may shoot at different times during the Shooting phase, the rules do not allow you to shoot with a part of a unit or a vehicle, resolve those shots and then come back to that unit or vehicle and fire previously unfired weaponry.

 

while that is true in most cases tau upgrades allow for a variation in the rule. because the tau tanks with target lock target different units you fire thier guns seperatley if you fire at multiple units ,,,,, . just as if you have a fire warrior squad leader with a pulse carbine  and target lock etc...markerlighting comes seperate from the rest of the squad shooting so he can do things like markerlight for his own squad,  also because various units shoot at different times during the shooting phase it is very conceivably that one unit can piick off the lone marine while another can target the IC after he is gone as he doesn't magically block LOS after he is removed as a casualty. .

No. Being able to target different units does not mean that they fire at different times. Your example of a markerlight marking for his own squad is also incorrect. That's the whole point of the networked markerlight on the Marker Drone. Why pay 30 points for a Marker Drone if you can get the same results by purchasing a markerlight for 10 points?

Target locks allow you to target a different unit than the rest of the squad, nothing more. All firing from a unit still occurs simultaneously.

Ghaz has it right. Each unit fires as a whole the number of times they can at ONE other unit. Exceptions to the rule like the target lock allow you fire at other units. Still that unit fires in ONE salvo, meaning you fire shots at the same time, at two units (imagine it like this your turret faces in one way and then the other guns face the other way, then fire at the same time).

The only way I could see breaking this rule is if you had the ability to use two shooting phases (IE DA standard of retribution) that would allow you to retarget because you get to fire as if you had another shooting phase (meaning the original situation of a marine and an IC would be dealth with if you could somehow get two shooting phases).

Thsi would also mean that you have to state all your targets before you start rolling to hit with any guns of the unit. Makes giving XV88s a TL pointless.

the confusion here is the fact hat only the tau are currently capable of spliting fire in 40K all other armies must fire as a unit.

nowhere in the rules does it say the unit with the target lock fires at the same time as the rest of the unit. this is a turn based game and all firing takes place in the shooting phase.

 what it says is that -

.the commander in a squad of crisis suits or infantry can choose to fire at a different target than the rest of the squad

.each of the guns on a fish/hamerhead can fire at a different target.

 

there is no "declaration of fire" rule when using units with tartget lock. and units with target lock in effect act like seperate units for firing purposes. 

     rather it be a FW leader markerlighting a dread to call in a seeker strike while the rest of the squad chooses a second target, a broadside team leader  selecting a different target because his team vaped the one they(his unit) were shooting at or a fish firing it's burst cannon and then afterward selecting a second target with it's smart missles.. if they had to all fire at the same time you wouldn't know if you could or needed to target a second unit with the team leader or other gun system.

 

in this case the model in question-the closest marine  is vaped by the burst cannon he is removed as a casualty at that time(still in the shooting phase) and the IC is now exposed for when the fish chooses to fire it's second gun at a different target during the shooting phase.

 

as all shooting takes place in the shooting phase and casualties are removed as they die, it is now perfectly legal to shoot the second weapon system at the IC since he is now the closest unit to the firing unit.

 

Posted By mughi3 on 09/15/2006 8:18 AM

the confusion here is the fact hat only the tau are currently capable of spliting fire in 40K all other armies must fire as a unit.

nowhere in the rules does it say the unit with the target lock fires at the same time as the rest of the unit. this is a turn based game and all firing takes place in the shooting phase.

It doesn't have to.  The basic rules state that a unit fires simultaneously.  So far all you've proven is that the target lock allows them to fire at a different unit than the rest of the squad or that a vehicle can fire it's various weapons at different units.  You've totally failed to prove that it changes anything else.

Looking at the step-by-step breakdown of the Shooting phase on page 18 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook, the Tau Target Lock only modifies point #1 of the shooting process by allowing you to target more than one unit.  The remainder remains unchanged.  A unit with a target lock does not gain their own, independent Shooting phase.

 

ok just to clarify since i don't use crsis suits or infantry with target lock i looked it up. both crisis and fire warriors have to pre-declare shots if they choose to split fire BEFORE they shoot. so they could not kill the IC in the scenerio given.

 

the target lock for tau vehicles  does not require any pre declared shots before it fires so it could perform as in the scenerio given..

 

p18 under choosing a target says- to select an enemy unit for one of your units to fire at

  the rules specify  you have to resolve shooting by  unit VS unit-the target lock option allows the secondary guns on a tau vehicle to target a different unit you have to resolve the targeting and shooting seperately if you choose to split your fire to a different unit..  

 

Posted By mughi3 on 09/15/2006 9:51 PM

   the rules specify  you have to resolve shooting by  unit VS unit-the target lock option allows the secondary guns on a tau vehicle to target a different unit you have to resolve the targeting and shooting seperately if you choose to split your fire to a different unit.. 

Once again, that is not correct.  As you stated, you have to resolve shooting on a unit by unit basis.  A Tau vehicle is a single unit hence you resolve all of it's shooting simultaneously.  They're talking about the unit that's shooting, not the unit being shot at.

Yes the target lock allows you to fire at a different unit. It also goes by the same rules of shooting.

A: The only rule the Target lock modifies is that a model equiped with a TL can Fire at a different target than the unit
    Therfore
We shall break it down, Keep in mind both of these happen at the same time

Sms:
Targets in range:
                               Space marine
                               Librarian
Space marine:Closest target+no secondary factors=Valid target
Librarian:Not closest target+Independent char=Invalid target

Target Space marine and fire

Rail gun:
Targets in range:
                               Space marine
                               Librarian
Space marine:Closest target+no secondary factors=Valid target
Librarian:Not closest target+Independent char=Invalid target

Target Space marine and fire

Result one realllllllyyyyyyy dead marine and a Librarian glad he had a shield seeing the lack of remains

Yup, guess thats how it is. In reality the Railgun blew a termi to kingdom come, but tanks for answering the question so thoroughly.

i disagree

you must resolve it unit by unit since the tau vehicle can shoot at 2 units you have to resolve the shooting seperately for each unit being shot at as per the way the rules are worded. normally this wouldn't apply since it would anly be 1 unit  shooting at one unit.

 

now i normally choose what i am going to shoot at with my fish before i start shooting, but ther have been cases where i have waited to see if the burst cannon does the job(like shooting at a speeder) and if it doesn't i direct the smart missles there, if it does i send them at another target like a troop unit as i do not have to pre-declare shooting for vehicle target locks. i personally have never had a situation like the one described(most people have thier ICs in squad or i can hit them from a different unit) but as i read the rules it can be done.

 

Posted By mughi3 on 09/17/2006 4:12 PM

Once again, that is not correct.  As you stated, you have to resolve shooting on a unit by unit basis.  A Tau vehicle is a single unit hence you resolve all of it's shooting simultaneously.  They're talking about the unit that's shooting, not the unit being shot at.

i disagree

you must resolve it unit by unit since the tau vehicle can shoot at 2 units you have to resolve the shooting seperately for each unit being shot at as per the way the rules are worded. normally this wouldn't apply since it would anly be 1 unit  shooting at one unit.

 

now i normally choose what i am going to shoot at with my fish before i start shooting, but ther have been cases where i have waited to see if the burst cannon does the job(like shooting at a speeder) and if it doesn't i direct the smart missles there, if it does i send them at another target like a troop unit as i do not have to pre-declare shooting for vehicle target locks. i personally have never had a situation like the one described(most people have thier ICs in squad or i can hit them from a different unit) but as i read the rules it can be done.

 

Mughi,

You are completely making this claim up. The Target Lock rules say:

"Each weapon on the vehicle may fire at a seperate enemy unit if desired, subject to the normal line of sight rules."

The ONLY exception that rule allows is that the vehicle may select multiple targets. There is absolutely no basis to claim that your vehicle can fire multiple times, each with a different weapon.

The Shooting rules in the rulebook are clear: You pick a unit, complete steps 1-6 of the shooting phase with it and then move onto another unit. The rules DO NOT ALLOW you to go back and fire a unit a 2nd time.

Since the Target Lock rules do not specify any such exemption you still follow the exact same procedure; the only difference being you can select a different target for each of the weapons on the vehicle when you select a target (step 1 of the shooting process).


If you ever try to construct a premise and conclusion your argument will be torn apart.

Posted By mughi3 on 09/17/2006 4:12 PM

Once again, that is not correct.  As you stated, you have to resolve shooting on a unit by unit basis.  A Tau vehicle is a single unit hence you resolve all of it's shooting simultaneously.  They're talking about the unit that's shooting, not the unit being shot at.

i disagree

you must resolve it unit by unit since the tau vehicle can shoot at 2 units you have to resolve the shooting seperately for each unit being shot at as per the way the rules are worded. normally this wouldn't apply since it would anly be 1 unit  shooting at one unit.

Wrong.  The way the rules are worded in no way supports your position.  You resolve shooting on a unit by unit basis on the shooting side.  Nothing even remotely states that you can only resolve shooting against one enemy unit at a time.

Anybody want to pull something out of the BBB that shows that targeting the Librarian with the Railgun and the SM with the SMS is illegal?

The Tau vehicle Target Lock allows each weapon on the vehicle to fire at a separate unit.
Stop me when I do something illegal:

The Smart Missile System targets the Marine.
The Railgun targets the Librarian.
The Railhead resolves firing the SMS at the Marine at BS4.
The Railhead resolves firing the Railgun at the Librarian at BS4.

Please read the Shooting At Characters rules on page 51 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook.

Independant Characters can only be targeted if they are the closest legal target.

Posted By feuerdrache on 09/17/2006 9:13 PM
Anybody want to pull something out of the BBB that shows that targeting the Librarian with the Railgun and the SM with the SMS is illegal?

The Tau vehicle Target Lock allows each weapon on the vehicle to fire at a separate unit.
Stop me when I do something illegal:

The Smart Missile System targets the Marine.
The Railgun targets the Librarian.

Stopping you. You did something illegal.

well since you asked here we go-

this is how i can see it working perfectly legally within the rules

the situation that started this post

fish with burst cannon and smart missles, lone surviving marine from a squad and a lone  IC

1.the fish is in a positon that it has LOS and range to the marine and IC and has the apropriate upgrades and proper movement so that it can even shoot to begin with

2.i target/declare fire and fire on the marine with the burst cannon, the marine is wounded and fails his armour save

3,the marine is removed as a cauaualty

4.the IC is now exposed and can be targeted

5.as i am not required to pre-declare/select/target/decide what to fire at with the second weapon system on the fish as per the target lock rule, i can now choose/target/select to shoot the IC with my smart missles because he is exposed, a second unit and legal to target as the closest enemy unit.

 

Posted By mughi3 on 09/19/2006 8:27 AM

5.as i am not required to pre-declare/select/target/decide what to fire at with the second weapon system on the fish as per the target lock rule

Invalid premise.

As bigchris pointed out, your premise is invalid. All that changes is that you are allowed to target more than one unit. Nothing else changes, including when you target said units. You may target more than one unit, but you target them at the same time.

The only way I can see for you to kill/wound the IC is if you had a Devilfish with drones

Movement Detach drones/Unload Firewarriors or Pathfinders
now you have 2 units, Kill off the marine  and then the IC with a different squad

Posted By mughi3 on 09/19/2006 8:27 AM
5.as i am not required to pre-declare/select/target/decide what to fire at with the second weapon system on the fish as per the target lock rule, i can now choose/target/select to shoot the IC with my smart missles because he is exposed, a second unit and legal to target as the closest enemy unit.

 

I must be blind where in the Target lock rule does it allow you to ignore the pre-declaration part of shooting?

The only rule that the Target lock modifies for Vehicles is that you can aim at different target, You still have to declare where those shots are going before you roll dice.

As Blue Loki says this is very simple, this argument must be stopped for rules violation. YOu have to get something that can override the targeting of IC's. Absent that the vehicle, whle able to target two groups, still can't targethte librarian until the SM is dead. Thus, you need someone else to kill the marine first, or at least force that marine to fall back.