Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The wording would appear to allow Turn 1 summoning. Is this the correct interpretation?

Thanks

Plc

This question has been roundly debated before and there is no clear answer either way.

I would recommend not using it on the first turn UNLESS your opponent is aware of the item before the game and he is ok with it.

Some would also be satisfied with just getting the approval of the judge or league commisioner in advance.

Darrian

Posted By Darrian13 on 12/31/2006 3:36 PM
This question has been roundly debated before and there is no clear answer either way.

Other than the 'unsportsmanlike' deal on it, any other reason that it wouldn't allow first turn summoning?

The crux of the arguement boils down to this line "At the start of the Chaos players turn this unit can be automatically summoned without making a reserve roll."

The arguement against allowing demons to be summoned on turn one is that, you start making reserve rolls on turn 2, not turn 1.

Darrian

long time no post darrian13, I would go for 2nd turn summoning as thats when anythig that can be summoned etc gets summoned. but I see why people would play it 1st turn.

Check with either tourney judges or opposing player (non tourney) beforehand. It's been debated and there are two difinitive camps in which either interpretation seems valid.

And some folks say the Chaos Codex doesn't need an update (non stealth version)...

What ever do you mean? The Chaos Codex is fine, just fine.

In before lock!

Posted By Darrian13 on 12/31/2006 8:18 PM
The crux of the arguement boils down to this line "At the start of the Chaos players turn this unit can be automatically summoned without making a reserve roll."

The arguement against allowing demons to be summoned on turn one is that, you start making reserve rolls on turn 2, not turn 1.

The opposing argument being, of course, that Daemons don't make Reserve rolls in the first place

Posted By happypants on 12/31/2006 6:38 PM

Posted By Darrian13 on 12/31/2006 3:36 PM
This question has been roundly debated before and there is no clear answer either way.

Other than the 'unsportsmanlike' deal on it, any other reason that it wouldn't allow first turn summoning?

It's only an issue because Loyalist Marines don't have a similar item...

Posted By skyth on 01/02/2007 6:19 PM
It's only an issue because Loyalist Marines don't have a similar item...

Agreed.

So true

Darrian

It's only an issue because it goes against almost every rule the 40K universe. It's not just that the loyalist don't have one - it's that no one has one.

Yeah - the Chaos Codex does need an update - one that calms it the *fudge* down. Just like the Tyranids

No. There are lots of armies who have the singular right to break a rule somehow. Every time that happens the cries of "cheese" appear.

But yes, the chaos codex does need to be streamlined. Its a nightmare and a headache trying to make heads or tails of that codex for someone who is not familiar with it. Trying to explain a rule to a newb can be a great exercise in futility.


The rules are neat, and I think they did an ok job organizing it with all they had to cram into that book, but still lacks a satisfactory feel to it. Thats chaos for you, I guess.

Posted By Hellfury on 01/03/2007 1:30 AM
But yes, the chaos codex does need to be streamlined. Its a nightmare and a headache trying to make heads or tails of that codex for someone who is not familiar with it. Trying to explain a rule to a newb can be a great exercise in futility.

Tell me about it. I almost offer my own skull to Khorne every time I have to explain why you CANNOT give obliterators marks of chaos, among other things...

So... is dakka saying first turn summons are cool?

Again, check with your opponent or tourney organizer. There is no real concensus on this rule.

I think whether or not there's a consensus depends where you play. The consensus where I am is that it's fine. A guy with this item/tactic from our group went down to Orlando and it was fine there too. Although I know there are players who object, I personally haven't met any across the table yet.

Well with the Chaos dex being the first real "create your own traits, custom army" book released it becomes the stepping stone for the newer ones.

The original is usually fundamentally flawed in that it's never been done before and is released with such a large variety of lists and combinations that no play testers really have time to focus on.

It went through what, 3 printings and several errata documents and FAQ's just to keep it playable at the current level. Whereas the older dexes like the Orks, Dark Eldar and Blood Angels use a set list that really isn't that interchangeable.

The main flaw in the foundation of the book is that they upped the complexity at the list creation level which will inevitably cause problems at the playing level as more and more unique variations and lists come up. Then you add in the fact that they went straight to a completely new ruleset that removes certain aspects/rules of this book and you have a nice fondue pot of "WTF?" for the actual players to be dipped in, scorching hot mind you.

Classic example is the wording of this issue. All RAW interpretations show that the Daemons do not have reserve rolls but the Daemon Icon states that they can come in automatically without making a reserve roll. So, the result is a bunch of very scalded players who got dipped, systematically, in to the "WTF Fondue" that is GW.

I play in Orlando regularly and it is mixed here. The pure inconsistancy of the ruling makes me go crazy as I go to different stores and such for tournaments. The club that I co-run has always tried to stress the "if there is no clear consensus, take the least advantageous ruling", but mostly we go by Adepticon ruling.

My advice to anybody is to just not do it. You are playing Chaos, there are plenty of ways to win with that codex that you don't have to rely on a poorly worded piece of wargear.

I personally play Word Bearers as my primary army, and I would never do it. I would field a Deamon Icon, but I wouldn't try and enforce the first turn summons. I wouldn't complain if I face it, but you are not getting full sports from me if you do it, because, unless you are new to the hobby (which I don't assume if you are playing a tournament), by fielding said Item and using the first turn summoning, you know that what you are doing and the controversy around it.

To me, it isn't worth the loss in sports to do it.

Heh...By playing Chaos, you already lose sports points regardless unless you look and act just like a loyalist chapter...

The only arguement I have against it is, it doesnt say your allowed to summon on turn one.....unlike say Speedfreaks where it says to roll reserves on turn one....

Yes, proabbly apples and oranges.....but since it SAYS turn 1 there.....


Personally I wouldnt do it: it says summon without a roll. It does not say you can break the reserve rules in terms of what turn you can have them show up.

But then the arguement comes full circle again. "Its not a reserves roll."

I used it once in an experimental game with a friend. Never again. It was absolutely insane. Infiltrate, summon and then win.

Yeah I have run up against enough loyalist crying about daemons in general. It is beyond me how any MEq army truely whine about another MEq army, without sounding like a complete donkey. I tease friends about the assault cannons or psy powers but I could never in clear conscious lodge a real complaint about someone using a strength of an army to a moderate level: ie a god's chosen number of daemons or a couple assault cannons on termies.

Not wanting to start up this argument again, but for the record the rules *do* say that you can summon turn one. You derive it logically from the rules as written:

P1: "At the start of the chaos player's turn, this unit can be automatically summoned without making a Reserves roll."
P2: The chaos player's turn one is a chaos player's turn.
----
C: At the start of the chaos player's turn one, this unit can be automatically summoned without making a Reserves roll."

This is airtight, textbook deductive logic. Arguments against turn one summoning are frequently based on responses from the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex.

Posted By Flavius Infernus on 01/05/2007 9:19 AM
Not wanting to start up this argument again, but for the record the rules *do* say that you can summon turn one. You derive it logically from the rules as written:

P1: "At the start of the chaos player's turn, this unit can be automatically summoned without making a Reserves roll."
P2: The chaos player's turn one is a chaos player's turn.
----
C: At the start of the chaos player's turn one, this unit can be automatically summoned without making a Reserves roll."

This is airtight, textbook deductive logic. Arguments against turn one summoning are frequently based on responses from the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex.

You had me until that last sentence. That was HILARIOUS!!!!!

Thanks I needed that laugh.

I too do not want to start this arguement again, but I will just state this for why it is a contentious argument.

P1: "At the start of the chaos player's turn, this unit can be automatically summoned without making a Reserves roll."

P2: Summoning does not start before Turn two.

C: In order to automatically summon, you must first meet the requirements of the core rule for summoning, I.E. starting on turn two.


Basically, the best arguement against the first turn Deamon Icon is thus. A Deamon Icon allows you to "At the start of the chaos player's turn, this unit can be automatically summoned without making a Reserves roll." Now we know that Summoning is not a reserves roll. So we can re-read it as thus "At the start of the chaos player's turn, this unit can be automatically summoned".

O.k. at the start of my turn I can use the rules for summoning to bring my unit onto the table automatically. The problem lies with the basic rules for summoning, which state that you can not summon a unit before turn 2. Now the rule says it's automatic, therein lies the contradiction, the Deamon Icon tells you you can a summon the Deamons, but the Summoning rules tells you that you cannot start summoning until turn 2. Since the unit is still being summoned (and not arriving via any other method) it would stand to reason that the basic rules for when summoning happens to apply, as the rule for the Deamon Icon doesn't explicitly state that it ignors that part of the summoning rules.

But that is not the best arguement, and it is all I am going to say about it.

My original advice stands, just don't do it. More often than not you will run into an event or tournament that will tell you that you can't. And though, from a RAW perspective, it might not be right for players and tournament organizers to do so, it is out there and that attitude is reflected by more player groups than you would think, probably the majority of 40kers are against it. So why even bother?

Mahu, the rules never say you can't summon on the first turn.

It says to start rolling on the second turn. There's a difference. Conflating them is fallacious, whether or not you support first turn Daemon Icon summoning.

This is an assumption, Mahu.

Both of my printings of the chaos codex don't say this; they say that you begin *rolling* in turn two.

That's the problem. Because they don't say you can either.

Like I said it wasn't the best arguement.

Though begining to roll for summoning still indicates that it doesn't start until turn 2. If I say I start chewing on my sandwich at 2:30, means I am starting to eat my sandwich at 2:30. Summoning is an action with a defined start.

I grant that the rules for the Deamon Icon can indicate that you can automatically "eat my sandwich" but the "sandwich" still has a defined start.

I am going to say this boldly this isn't a good arguement.

You are reading my reasoning (or lack thereof) against a first turn summoning, but are missing the point of every post I put in this thread. My simple recommendation of DO NOT DO IT, because of the obvious reactions you will get by doing it unless you are in a gaming area that allows it. Even the Yakface FAQ done on this very forum, doesn't allow it. so why are we still even argueing about it.