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Herein lies the problem; one side cites the rules, then the other side comes up with this crazy and unsupported "but you can't get the demons out of reserve until turn two" stuff (which is usually followed by statements like "demons deepstrike" - also fallacious), and then the first side, not wanting to step on anyone's toes, doesn't push the issue too much.

Has this issue come up at any tournament? I don't understand how it could not have.

Antonin, both sides are citing rules. This issue occasionally does come up in tourneys. If you refuse to see the opposite side's point in the rules, then so be it.

It is unclear as GW has written it. That's about as simple as it gets. Summoning isn't Reserves, but then GW states it is (sort of). The crux is does the rule completely override all summoning rules, including the one that states summoning begins at turn 2?

Even reading both sides, it is still unclear to me what GW intended. Therefore, when I use the Demon Icon, I use the least advantageous interpretation. I can see how my opponent would argue it, and I'm not going to bulldoze the guy with the arguement, 'the rule is not clear, therefore I'm using my interpretation'. I don't hinge any tactic or armybuild that relies on any issues that are unclear for the sake of me getting a good game in. This mantra has worked for me for years and I've still been able to win multiple tourneys, even w/o summoning demons on the first turn.

Hello?  Am I speaking martian here?
The rules do say you can.

P1: "At the start of the chaos player's turn, this unit can be automatically summoned without making a Reserves roll."
P2: The chaos player's turn one is a chaos player's turn.
----
C: At the start of the chaos player's turn one, this unit can be automatically summoned without making a Reserves roll."

Peace, Mahu. I agree it isn't a good argument, and I agree that there are possible sportsmanship issues (although the guy from my club who went down to your hood with a first-turn-summoning army, I believe, won either best general or best overall in your excellent tournament, I can't remember which).

I just want to be clear that according to the RAW, it is allowed.

The sandwich analogy doesn't line up correctly because eating a sandwich is only one thing, whereas summoning and rolling to summon are two different things. Rolling to summon is a specific form of summoning that starts on turn two, but doesn't necessarily exclude other forms of summoning. In order to be exclusionary, the rule would have to say "Only" beginning in turn two.

It says you can do it at the first of your turn. It doesn't explicitly state you can do it on your first turn, but nowhere is it explicitly stated that daemons can't be summoned on the first turn.

It's a result of unclear rules writing -- I don't think it's clear at all which way was intended, and while one might think to err on the side of reason (as automatically summoned daemons with no scattering on the first turn is, well, stupidly unbalanced), it's in the same book that contains Siren.

Amusingly, the other ability of the Icon as typically played -- that it prevents the daemons from being summoned until the player chooses to -- doesn't really exist in the rules.

Personally, I think the rules as written favor first-turn summoning. I've never pushed it, though, as it is often perceived as incorrect or ambiguous, and it's just too powerful.

One pack of daemons arriving first turn isn't all that powerful. Sure, you can hit assault turn 1, but so can things in almost any army. Especially in quarters deployment.

The major crux of the opposing view is that since it's Chaos, we have to try to limit it somehow because Chaos is cheesy.

Posted By skyth on 01/05/2007 5:17 PM
One pack of daemons arriving first turn isn't all that powerful. Sure, you can hit assault turn 1, but so can things in almost any army. Especially in quarters deployment.

The major crux of the opposing view is that since it's Chaos, we have to try to limit it somehow because Chaos is cheesy.

Hey, I play Chaos, and I think it's unbalanced.  Daemon summoning in general is just flat-out broken.  It just means, to me, that it's in bad taste to push for using even a potentially ambiguous as good as first turn summoning is.  I still hold that the icon allows first turn summoning, I just choose to avoid the crap associated with using it in friendly games.

The rules don't explicilty state a lot of things, Lowinor, but that's in the nature of rules. They are set up so that you can deduce what's allowed.

The rules don't explicitly state that a librarian can have lightning claws. But the rules say that librarians can have things from the armory, and lighting claws are in the armory. So even though it's not expliticly stated, you use deductive logic to decide with complete certainty that librarians can have lightning claws.

It would take forever and a huge amount of space to list every model that can have every piece of gear and to list all the infantry models that move 6" and all the ones that move 12" and so forth. So the rules name general categories of things (independent characters, infantry, bikes, beasts) and then state the rules that apply to those categories (have access to the armory, move 6", move 12") and leave it up to you to deduce how it works without having to explicitly state everything.

A sound conclusion that is derived from stated rule premises is as true, in terms of the rules, as a rule that is explicitly stated.

And then we turn to the chaos book and look at the summoning rules.....and see they start on turn 2. NOTHING in the description, unlike the ork one, says they can be summoned without a roll on turn 1.

You start rolling on turn 2. Nothing says they can't actually appear through other circumstances before that.

Er, you realize I'm on your side here? My above quote was just noting that there is no rule against summoning on the first turn, and it's fallacious to assume that the lack of an explicit rule allowing first turn summoning means that you can't summon on the first turn (given the rest of the context).



The book says you start rolling on turn 2, and rolling makes daemons available, and then you summon.

The icon says you can summon daemons without a roll.

The reason you don't get to normally summon daemons on the first turn is you don't get to roll -- there's no rule stating you can't summon on the first turn, just that you only start rolling on the second turn. The icon says you can summon without rolling.

I'm not going to pretend that the rules are particularly well written or that the intent of the author of the relevant rules is decipherable, but by what is in the text, first turn summoning is fine.

Sorry, Lowinor. For some reason I read your post as implying that first turn summoning would have to be explicitly stated. My bad.

Hey,

The rules are explicit, and I really don't understand why anyone would object.

Consider the very narrow definition of a Unit that is eligible to field a Daemon Icon:

* It has to be Undivided (pg25), so no Cult or Unmarked army lists may include them.

* It has to be either an Elite Chosen Unit or a Lord's Retinue (pg7).

* A *minimum* MoCU Chosen squad w/ 8 Bloodletters bound to its Icon costs 318pts.

So, it costs @20% of CSM players a *bundle* to get Daemons in their own DZ on turn one.

How is this a problem? This topic always seemed like much ado about nothing, to me.


Playa

The problem occurs when the unit of chosen infiltrates 12" away, and has bound a unit of daemonette cavalry that can move 6"+D6"+12".

Can you say 1st turn charge?

Plus, you can field 3 of these in an army.

Lord w/ Chosen Retinue, Infiltrate, Demonic Icon
LT  w/ same
Chosen as its' own unit.

3 Times the love of first turn assaults.

Personally, I don't own 30 Mounted Demonettes, but you can see the abusive potential.

 

Edited 2nd Lord to LT.

Ummm...Thought Daemon Icon was limited to 1 per army? I know lords are

And 1st turn charges aren't that bad. They can be useful, but they're not all that.

As far as I can read, one may be taken in a Chosen squad. That is the only limit I can find. You can field up to three Chosen squads, thus three Icons.

0-1 Chaos Lord

So, Sarigar actually means up to three Chosen units, one as Lord's retinue, one as Lieutenant's retinue, and the third as a Chosen unit.

Posted By Sarigar on 01/05/2007 2:42 PM
Antonin, both sides are citing rules. This issue occasionally does come up in tourneys. If you refuse to see the opposite side's point in the rules, then so be it.

No; and that's my point.  The first-turn summoner position is based on rules.  The other side's position is based on two points:  first, that you begin rolling for demons on turn two (which does not, either logically or explicitly, equate to the position that they are only available on turn two) and secpond, that it isn't fair to summon demons on turn one, which again, does not hold much water in a logical argument.

I can see the other side's point that it seems quite unfair to allow a first turn summon, but in the rules, they have no leg to stand on, and I'm not going to give them the benefit fo the doubt when there is no benefit of the doubt. 

Flavius, I know of the tournament you are refering to. That was the Necro. To be honest that event has been in this area for a while, but it has been fantasy only until the last one. It was run by hard-core Fantasy gamers with very little 40k experience. So the Terrain was light, and the more finer part of the rules where glossed over. I can't blame them though, they run a terrific event and the 40k part was so succesful that it got on the grand tournament circut! My club wil probably put a little help in to refine the 40k side better, so that it meets Grand Tournament standards.

But I am addressing that to address your original arguement, namely that the Deamon Icon is more widespread than believed. As you can see from above, the Necro (at least last years) isn't the best borometer of how the Orlando area plays it. I regularly game with two of your friends opponents in that event, and neither said anything about the first turn summon. But I know in all the events in our gaming club, we disallow it. Pretty much because the majority of us are going to Adepticon, so we usually follow their standards to get us used to a style of play.

I would say that considering that the largest organized gaming community in Chicago doesn't allow it, and Yakface said no in his FAQ. That would be the borrometer for me on whether or not I should use it. Is it RAW, no. But just like Deepstriking into friendly models, mystic shooting Drop Pods, etc.it is one of those "common sence rules changes" that are enforced by the majority. Like it or not.

If GW hadn't put in a statement to the effect of '..without having to make a reserve roll', it would be much clearer.  At the end of the day, I really just want to know how the ruling will be prior to playing. I can adjust accordingly.

It has nothing to do with being unfair. The rules for the daemon icon say that it can summon without making a roll. The entire question then becomes, can you summon on turn 1. The summoning rules themselves don't allow turn 1 summoning, but don't specifically prohibit it either.

You could interpret it (in my mind, legitimately) as saying you can summon on turn 1 due to the Chaos Icon's "Chaos player's turn" wording. You can also interpret (legitimately, as well) it as saying that the Chaos icon rules do not override the basic summoning rules that don't allow a daemon pack to be summoned until turn 2.

It's a case of the rules simply not being clear.