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hey

According to fluff, the Chaos Marines are traitors and they all hate each other and would be happy to stab each other in the back as they have done thousands of years ago.

So when they fight, why don't any of them "accidentally" shoot/chop/blow up each other?

They're millenia old warriors who have fought in thousands of campaigns so that would mean they haven't died for a LONG time. Therefore they wouldn't be that scared in a battle, so would they have the time and reason to attack each other? In books such as Storm of Iron (which is very good IMHO) Honsou is seen arguing with other Chaos Marines (Kroeger) and it is obvious they would be happy seeing each other dead. Then, the proceeds to "accidentally" shoot a couple of slaves with his bolter. Why won't he just shoot Kroeger in the head with a bolter on the field of battle? Why won't his minions just all swarm over him and kill him? He bosses other CSM around because he is superior in ability, and I'm sure they would all like to see him dead. Why did n't any of them accidentally shoot him?

You hate the people you are fighting along side, and in the chaos of a melee, being so close to people you hate, you're swinging a powersword around at the guardsmen, but you don't take the chance to decapitate one of your rivals?

Ok, So lets just say that they DO work effectively. but that wouldn't make much sense as the Space Marines practically LOVE each other and still operate in a battle as well as those Chaos Warriors.

Any thoughts?

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Meaning, traitor marines hate the imperium much mroe than they do each other.

That one Khorne guy (Kharne?) does attack friendlies in his bloodlust. Chaos dreads will attack friendlies in a fire frenzy if no enemies are in sight. Chaos can and will attack itself under the right circumstances.

And to further Yak's point, they're still Space Marines. Underneath all the spiky bits and horns, they're still drilled, hardcore, pumped up on brotherhood of arms and military tactics as Loyalists*. That's what makes them scary, is they're the dark mirror images of the Loyal chapters

There but for the grace of the Emporer go I...

*Okay, except maybe Khornate Marines...

hey

sure, but wouldn't you sieze the oppurtunity to accidentally kill one of your rivals? Who wants to be killing Imperial Guardsmen when you could be out there killing your rivals?

I can se his point but if you look on the other hand they know what will happen to them if tey shoot one of there own in a crowdly way one of the other chaos marines will do the same thing..... kinda like frag'n back in the vietman war you get rid of one LT that was worthless but then the new butterbar(lt) is just as worthless as the first where does it end at??

Plus it would bring utter chaos too the ranks of traitors with each other not trusting one another in combat.....just boils down too there geneseeds....

Plus if you ever use Fabilus Biles and his Freak show you can get ur in fighting in the begining of the game ....

my three cents

Presumably they'd whistle whilst they do it.

Plus, the minions of chaos are ultimately very power hungry. While taking out your rivals carries a certain amount of weight, davastating the Imperium/whoever is far more likely to bring favor from the Chaos Gods.

Also, you can assume that a certain amount of petty rivalries take place within the Eye of Terror. By the time a Chaos Army is on the move, a lot of that has been worked out behind the scenes. A powerful leader has a uniting impact on the troops.

hey

hmmmmm, well I'm very impressed with all these answers! I didn't think of any of them!

I heard an explanation that the eye of terror is so saturated with chaos, time means nothing. Time flows backwards, sideways, ti splits and all other crazy things. So a chaos warrior can raid out of the EoT and be killed, but then like 500 years later in a freak of time he raids the Imperium again. So basically the tide of Chaos marines will never end until chaos is beaten.

Malorix makes a good point... The CSMs are all original members of the Legions, so while the Loyalist Chapters can go through whatever their recruitment channels are, and replace lost bodies, the CSMs can't. The Legions were large, but eventually they'll run out if they don't have some workaround. The effects of Chaos, the idea that the same CSMs are dying, and then alternate realities simply respawn them to attack again... That works for me.

The Black Legion (formerly the Sons of Horus, formerly the Luna Wolves), are also consistenly possessed by Demons as part of their trials, so one could deduce that their age would be drastically altered.

While this may be off topic, can't marines live for hundreds of years anyway?

You guys have to remember that people go over to Chaos all the time. It says it under the Khorne section even. That they lure people over by thier hubris alone. Slaanesh does the pervert thing. Tzeench reanimates thier warriors. Nurgle infects and spreads plagues and offers release from it. As said somewhere Fabius is cloning marines. Its more than just the warp reincarnating marines.

Remember there are fresh traitors all the time. Chaos is growing. The calling is always there.

Oh and there are marines still around since the heresy. They are just not Khornate Berserkers, lol.

In Dead Sky, Black Sun... Honsou wages war against another Warsmith. They seige each other's fortress'. It was awesome. In fact if I'm not mistaken that's how the legions of Chaos hone their battle skills, engaging in conflicts with their rivals.

Posted By jlmb_123 on 12/15/2005 7:01 AM
Presumably they'd whistle whilst they do it.

Took a week to figure that one out

hey

i don't get it

Who wants to be killing Imperial Guardsmen when you could be out there killing your rivals?

Because Guardsmen are squishy and weak, while Chaos marines are tough and might hit you back

Because Guardsmen are squishy and weak, while Chaos marines are tough and might hit you back

That's exactly the point. If they are tough and will hit you back, why not kill them when they're busy killing those squishy weak guardsmen?

It doesn't matter HOW you kill your enemy, you could use the most despicable and dishonourable ways to kill him, but at the end of they day, if he's dead, you win.

It would be a lot easier to kill him if his back was turned to you and he was busy killing guardsmen, than if you had a dual in a pit with your bare hands.

chaos marines are not necessarily always rivals with each other to begin with.

there is still a sense of shared brotherhood among the ranks of most of the traitor legions (except maybe worldeaters) who are led by the most powerful among them. most of them have some agenda against the imperium which is best served by working together.

"storm of iron" was ho-hum, and "dead sky black sun" was a crappy novel.

-g

well that true what christmas koiner say but would you rather face a hundred guards mens alone or with a another chaos mariner?? there always safety in numbers im pretty sure two chaos marines can take care of a hundred gaurds men but one marine vs that many would just be signing you own death warrent... just my three cents. i know in game terms those two marines are dead but fluff wise they should be able to wipe them all out with working up a sweat

Ever see what 1 done up Khornate Berserker does to Imperial guard when they get into melee? lol

Posted By Kultofthebonedragons on 12/22/2005 10:15 AM
well that true what christmas koiner say but would you rather face a hundred guards mens alone or with a another chaos mariner?? there always safety in numbers im pretty sure two chaos marines can take care of a hundred gaurds men but one marine vs that many would just be signing you own death warrent... just my three cents. i know in game terms those two marines are dead but fluff wise they should be able to wipe them all out with working up a sweat

 

************

I'm sorry, but that is flat out untrue. I'm a Chaos Space Marine player, but you have to give credit to the Imperial Guard where it's due. Sure, there are some wimps the jumpsuits, but there are also grizzeled vets who have fought on dozens of worlds and fought the most mind-bending foes a human mind could see. They aren't the Adeptus Astartes, but they are still the army of the Imperium, the Emperor's troops. Space Marines are tough, but they are hardly invincible.  100 guys against two?  They aren't Primarchs for God's sake.

 

CSM and SM aren't just normal warriors, they are super super elite guerilla fighters.  What they can do in an open battle field is nothing compared to what they can do just sneaking around behind enemy lines and causing pure havoc. 

Each SM and CSM is a master of hit and run tactics, terrorisim, counter terrorisim, demolitions, stealth, boobytraps, etc etc etc.  This is the way SM and CSM are often described as fighting, as they are always heavily outnumbered, usually outgunned, and often dropped or teleported straight into extremely hostile situations with limited or no resupply abilities at all.

While chaos armies are perfectly capable of working together for some kind of greater plan under a powerful leader, it's also in the nature of chaos to eventually turn to infighting and self destruction.  It's just their nature to follow a strong leader, and turn to infighting between rival powers and rival chapters once that leader is killed or defeated.  It's also the only reason they haven't conquered the universe yet.

Guerilla fighters! 8 foot tall giants in 3 inch thick brightly coloured armour charging towards the enemy screaming imperial prayers while firing fully automatic rocket propelled grenade launchers. They do not sneak around, the space marines see this as cowardly behaviour. The only reason space marines haven't all been wiped out already is because every other army fights with the same slowed tactics!
A properly trained and led imperial guard team could wipe out a much larger space marine force using efficient small team tactics, marines are not invincible, they are just GW's golden boys.

Rant over

Darkchild

Space Marines and their Chaotic counterparts are elite assault infantry, not special forces, thats the Scouts job. They rely on being able to fight only a small part of the enemy at a time when he is unprepared and off-balance, such as by dropping into the rear of an armoured regiment to destroy its artillery then scarpering when the tanks come about to counter-attack. Above all they strive to avoid exposing themselves to the organised massed fire of the enemy's heavy weapons. To quote the Tyrant of Badab 'Victory does not always rest with the big guns, but if we rest in front of them we shall be lost'.

i think the answer i prefer to the question of why chaos don't wipe each other out is that the ones that were inclined to do so, already have.
the ones left over are simply the ones that hate the imperium enough, or whatever, in order to cooperate, and therefore they are the only ones that end up actually fighting non-chaos.

It is true that some chapters do see sneaking around as cowardly and they do fight out in the open as you described.  Black Templar tend not to bother with silly things like "cover" or "sanity" much less stealth.  However a lot of the fluff says that there are plenty of normal marines and csm that are perfectly comfortable behind enemy lines, or even specialized at doing just that.  Why else can many elite marines of various chapters and practially all of the Night Lords, Raven Guard, and Blood Ravens take infiltration and/or scouting as a special ability?

Shrike of the Raven Guard is probably considered one of the most successful guerilla style Space Marines as his fluff in the SM codex as he and his isolated unit survived 2 years behind ork lines blowing up fuel dumps, wreaking havoc, providing intelligence and stealing what they needed to survive before re-joining the main force.

So would an Ultramarine ever do any of those things?  Probably not, but there are plenty of chapters that would.

OK, so the best SM guerilla fighter is named as such because he outwitted Orks for 2 years. Orks, the species that head-butts each other to figure out who's in charge. I could outwit Orks for longer than that in my pyjamas.

Wait a tick mate. What about this. Chaos, why are they still around? I mean after all these battles they been in. The evil marines do take casulties. It is not like they have a bloody recruitment center for Chaos Marines to fill those who have fallen. would you not think that these untis should get smaller and smaller and finally be gone. just a thought