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Hey quick question.  It says in Codex:CSM that models with daemonic stature cannot have infiltrate, but in the Alpha Legion section it says that any model in power armor and on foot may buy infiltrate for +5/1 points per model.  Curious about this I used the EOTI program to whip up an Alpha Legion daemon price with daemonic stature and behold it allowed me to give him infiltrate.  Is this just a flub in the program or what?  It wont let me do it for any other legion, just AL.  It is hard to say just from the codex as it kinda contradicts itself between the wording of the infiltrate rule, and the infiltrators rule for AL.
Aztralwolf

Some argue that Alpha Legion bikers can infiltrate too, and I've seen less-scrupulous AL players do just that. In the name of the Legion, I make it a practise to bludgeon their skulls to pulp.




Though I would like someone to agree with me that infiltrating statured lords and bikers is bull ...

- Boss Salvage

Technically, as long as he doesn't have terminator armor, ANY chaos lord can infiltrate, as the infiltrate USR supercedes the infiltrate rule in the CSM codex, where all the restrictions are.

However, this is definitely abusing a rules loophole (As stated by designers, though for some reason they never actually FAQ'd it)

Hmm... I wouldn't think bikers could even be stretched to have it as, at least in my copy of the dex, it says "on foot" for who can have it.  Being as bikes are a mode of transport I would not see this as doable.  With the lord it will only let a daemonic stature lord have it with EOTI if I make an AL army.  Any other chaos army list removes infiltrate from the lords options as soon as I give him stature.  And I wouldnt see it as that much of a problem as there are ways around a lord built like that.  And if the player doesnt get first turn their lord is gonna be up for ALOTTA shooting saves.
Aztralwolf

The restriction in Infiltrate in CSM disallowed its use by *any* statured model, even AL. The new USR has no such limitations. So RAW, you can Infiltrate Statured models, frenzied models, etc.

It is clear the devs meant to retain the restriction, but, stupidly, never FAQed or errata'd it. In tournies, count on a ruling restricting such shennaingans. In friendly play, such abuse is not very friendly.... But if you enjoy arguing RAW with friends, go for it.

Ive heard that Night lord rapators can Inflirtate too... Is that possible?? or was the guy just blowing smoke up some one butt??

Of course they can...and take tank hunters and furious charge too.

Of course that's insane, they are far too many points to be worth it, especially out in front of your opponent's whole army by themselves. (my opinion, and I like NL)

Posted By Aztralwolf on 02/22/2007 4:52 AM
Hey quick question.  It says in Codex:CSM that models with daemonic stature cannot have infiltrate, but in the Alpha Legion section it says that any model in power armor and on foot may buy infiltrate for +5/1 points per model.  Curious about this I used the EOTI program to whip up an Alpha Legion daemon price with daemonic stature and behold it allowed me to give him infiltrate.  Is this just a flub in the program or what?  It wont let me do it for any other legion, just AL.  It is hard to say just from the codex as it kinda contradicts itself between the wording of the infiltrate rule, and the infiltrators rule for AL.
Aztralwolf

Ignoring the 4th edition wording debacle, if we were just talking about your particular question:

The codex states that statured models cannot infiltrate and the Alpha Legion rules state that any model in power armor can infiltrate.

You would go by the 'break no rule' concept and the rule would actually be:  Any model in power armor can infiltrate except for models with Daemonic Stature.


Again, this is pretending the 4th edition USR wording isn't the disaster it currently is.

Seems clear to me. I have the latest copy and it says "may not use infiltrate". That means you can buy it if you want, you just can't use it.

Your codex can say whatever it wants to. Under the "Infiltrate" heading in the CSM codex, it says model in yadda yadda or stature or Mark of Khorne or whatever can't infiltrate."

HOWEVER, the crux is that the main rulebook says under the Universal Special Rules heading on page 74 says:

"As the number of Warhammer 40,000 armies has increased through the years, it has become apparent that there are a large number of special rules that are not specific to just a single army, and that these universal special rules really belong here in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. the following unit special rules are the definitive version, and replace special rules of the same name printed in full in Codexes."

And then you look under Infiltrate in the main rulebook on the next page, and notice there are no restrictions about being Statured, Terminator Armored, Jet-Packed, Mark of Khorned, the Space Emperor, what have you.

So by RAW, you can infiltrate a statured Demon Prince in 4th edition. Thats what yak is saying.

He is also saying, that god damn GW can't write their own rules, and it would probably be to your best interest to not follow the above interpretation as their own re-printed versions of the chaos dex, and the rulebook, contradict each other, and its annoying at best.

Posted By whitedragon on 02/26/2007 12:46 PM
Your codex can say whatever it wants to. Under the "Infiltrate" heading in the CSM codex, it says model in yadda yadda or stature or Mark of Khorne or whatever can't infiltrate."

HOWEVER, the crux is that the main rulebook says under the Universal Special Rules heading on page 74 says:

"As the number of Warhammer 40,000 armies has increased through the years, it has become apparent that there are a large number of special rules that are not specific to just a single army, and that these universal special rules really belong here in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. the following unit special rules are the definitive version, and replace special rules of the same name printed in full in Codexes."

And then you look under Infiltrate in the main rulebook on the next page, and notice there are no restrictions about being Statured, Terminator Armored, Jet-Packed, Mark of Khorned, the Space Emperor, what have you.

So by RAW, you can infiltrate a statured Demon Prince in 4th edition. Thats what yak is saying.

He is also saying, that god damn GW can't write their own rules, and it would probably be to your best interest to not follow the above interpretation as their own re-printed versions of the chaos dex, and the rulebook, contradict each other, and its annoying at best.

All the veteran skill says is that units with it can use the USR and defines which units can't use it. It does not say how to apply it. All the USR does is say how to apply it. Neither the USR or the Veteran ability are contradicting or conflicting (amazingly enough   ).

Actually, the Chaos Codex FAQ says that the USR entry replaces in full the entry in the chaos codex...Guess where those restrictions are?

Posted By skyth on 02/26/2007 4:28 PM
Actually, the Chaos Codex FAQ says that the USR entry replaces in full the entry in the chaos codex...Guess where those restrictions are?

And my point is, the entry in the CSM is called Veteran Abilities and say its uses the special rules in the BBB. It is not a special rule, it is a model option, so it isnt replace as it does not define how its used. The USR and the Veteran abilites are two different types of rules. One defines how its used game mechanics wise, the other defines what models in its list may use it. They have two compeltely different applications. Your comparing apples to oranges. Therefore, it does not replace it. All the Infiltrate Veteran ability rule in the CSM does is define who can use the USR.

 

EDIT:The only example I can find to demonstrate where a special rule is over-ridden by the ones in the BBB was in the Daemon-Hunter codex. True grit before 4e was different for Grey Knights than it was for others with true grit because of their ability to use it with Stormbolters. Oddly enough, due to GWs oversight, this now opens it up to be used by GK Termies. Anyways, the part of the issue is you guys are comparing the USR to the wargear/gifts/skill list. If you look on page 12 of the CSM Codex you will see its titled "Special Rules". If you read page 74 in the BBB it says "and replaces special rules of the same name in full in the Codexes. Infiltrate is listed under Veteran abilities so as to define who can use the USR. It does not redefine the USR.

Well, the USR section of the BGB says that the rules of similar name are replaced in full...So the entire rule, including who can use it, goes bye-bye.

Posted By skyth on 02/26/2007 4:56 PM
Well, the USR section of the BGB says that the rules of similar name are replaced in full...So the entire rule, including who can use it, goes bye-bye.

Sorry you must of been typing while I was editing. I think I answered this in my edit if you want to check it out.

The veteran abilities are still special rules, so are completely replaced, including who can use them by the USR. This is a stated by the designers exploit, but it is in there by the RAW.

Posted By skyth on 02/26/2007 5:03 PM
The veteran abilities are still special rules, so are completely replaced, including who can use them by the USR. This is a stated by the designers exploit, but it is in there by the RAW.

I disagree. As the CSM clearly has a section, as do all Codexes, titled Special Rules. The BBB clearly says the USR replaces Special rules. Veteran abilities not only are not listed under special rules, but they also do not state anything that conflicts with the USR. As I stated earlier, apples and oranges.

Sorry, but just because they're not titled 'Special Rules' doesn't mean that thy're not special rules.

Wow.

I think I have to give Mort' the award for the Finest Hair Splitting in the History of Dakka!

You know, in the spirit of the Oscar's and all....

Sal.

There is no hair splitting in this issue. The USR in the rule book "completely replaces" the special rules of the same name in every codex. Its really cut and dry. You can whine all you want.

And by completely replace, you could actually cut and paste the section of the rulebook into each codex.

As for a real hair splitting issue, mention Siren and Grey Knights.

Posted By Saldiven on 02/26/2007 8:21 PM
Wow.

I think I have to give Mort' the award for the Finest Hair Splitting in the History of Dakka!

You know, in the spirit of the Oscar's and all....

Sal.

Its not hair splittling at all. You cant replace an engine with a transmission. You replace an engine with an engine. So you talk about RAW, well incase you've forgotten that means Rules As Written, not Rules As Interpreted or Rules As Assumed. To assume that Veteran Abilities is the same as Special Skills just because one has mention of the other in it is splitting hairs if anything and smacks of exploitng the list for a illegal advantage.  Its very clear in that its says rule type "A" is replaced in all codex by rule type "a" in the BBB. So why you would go to rule type "b" and replace it is beyond me. To say the USR replaces everywhere that it even mentions the word Infiltrate is a huge stretch because thats not what the USR ruling says it does. It says it replaces "Special Rules", not the word "Infiltrate". So, as I said earlier all the Veteran Abilities section does it define who can use the USR. While it may have a description under some of them describing what it does in game terms its irrelevant as the USR tells you the same exact usage. The only difference is that certain ones have restrictions on who can use them. The only reason the Daemonhunter True Grit differs is because its listed under Special Rules in both the front of the Codex and under the unit entry. That being said however, I still say it doesn't change anything as it doesn't say True Grit special skill under the GK Termies entry and hence they dont have it. For it to apply as some of you are suggesting supported by your claims of RAW you will have to quote where it says "the USR replaces Veteran Abilities text in full". Then it will be RAW. Anything else is your interpretation (or misinterpretation).

Don't know how you would think this is a hair splittling issue either, as its very clear also.

Part of the problem perhaps is misinterpetation of the FAQ also. In the FAQ, it states that the USR take precedence over the veteran skills. That simply means that where they conflict, you use the USR wording. It does not mean to replace them in full. The word "precedence" only has any meaning if two things are conflicting. If there is no conflict, there is no use for the word precedence.

Well, if you're wanting to get really particular, it doesn't say that it replaces "Special Rules," it states that it replaces "special rules."

In the English language, capitalizing a noun makes it "proper," as in refering to a specific thing. In every codex army rules set or unit rules set, it uses the captial version "Special Rules," a proper noun. I argue that the lower case refers to any rule that is not standard, not just those that are listed as being army or unit specific.

Yeah, I know, this is complete rules lawyering and a bunch of crap.

The main thing is that we KNOW what the designer's intent is with the USR's. The intent appears in the sentence immediately preceding the one that gets quoted so often. GW doesn't want there to be a whole bunch of different interpretations of what "Infiltrate," "Deep Strike," "Scout," etc. are in the game.

Mort', your interpretation requires us to do just that, have multiple interpretations for what "Infiltrate" is, and that is expressly what the designers are trying to avoid. I am not guessing at this, it is spelled out right in the first paragraph of the USR section in bold print.

If we adhere to your interpretation, Mort', then we have to go back through every codex and determine which ones the USR rules apply to and which ones they don't. Considering how much GW has been trying to simplify the rules set, doesn't it make more sense to always use the USRs from the BGB unless otherwise specified by a FAQ (a la the DE Grotesque version of "Feel no Pain")?

I'm really not trying to be objectionable, but I have to say that this is the first time that I have ever heard anyone contest that the USRs in the BGB didn't apply to everything of the same name, and that's including about a dozen RTT's and a Games Day (where RAW can sometimes be pushed to absolute extremes).

Sal.

Posted By Saldiven on 02/27/2007 5:24 AM
Mort', your interpretation requires us to do just that, have multiple interpretations for what "Infiltrate" is, and that is expressly what the designers are trying to avoid. I am not guessing at this, it is spelled out right in the first paragraph of the USR section in bold print.

If we adhere to your interpretation, Mort', then we have to go back through every codex and determine which ones the USR rules apply to and which ones they don't. Considering how much GW has been trying to simplify the rules set, doesn't it make more sense to always use the USRs from the BGB unless otherwise specified by a FAQ (a la the DE Grotesque version of "Feel no Pain" ?

I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying now. The veteran abilities in the CSM codex do not over-ride the application of the USR, it defines who can use it. For example, Infiltrate USR is Infiltrate. There is only one way to do it. However, in the CSM codex it simply tells you that certain models in the Chaos list cannot use it. It in no way tells you how to use it. As a matter of fact it tells you to use the infiltrate rules out of the BBB. Thats why I dont understand why you guys are arguing it, as it doesn't change the rule it only tells who can use it. Now if it said in the Chaos codex that this is how infiltrate works, and then goes on to describe a different way of applying the in game mechanics (ie, you can set up all your chaos models then your oppenent does his, which is differring from the USR, just for the sake of example), then I would agree with you. But all it says is "Infiltrate works like it does out of the BBB. Such and such models cant use it.". There is nothing there that contradicts the BBB USR, so there is nothing for it to take precedence for. If we are to interpret it your way, then no models in any codex can use the USRs, as they are not specificly mentioned as being able to in the USR. And that IMHO, would be a stretch.

Posted By Angelus Mortis on 02/27/2007 8:33 AM
But all it says is "Infiltrate works like it does out of the BBB. Such and such models cant use it.".

But, you see, that's not what the USR for infiltrate says.  The USR has no restrictions like those.  Therefore, when you add those restrictions, that's all it is: you unilaterally trying to add restrictions.

Oddly enough, even with all the stealth reprints, the restriction has never been added to D. Stature, or to Terminator Armor.  Either would have given you the restriction you are looking for.  They haven't, and the USR has not been FAQed to cover those situations, sooo... those restrictions don't exist, per RAW.

Posted By Antonin on 02/27/2007 9:01 AM

Posted By Angelus Mortis on 02/27/2007 8:33 AM
But all it says is "Infiltrate works like it does out of the BBB. Such and such models cant use it.".

But, you see, that's not what the USR for infiltrate says.  The USR has no restrictions like those.  Therefore, when you add those restrictions, that's all it is: you unilaterally trying to add restrictions.

Oddly enough, even with all the stealth reprints, the restriction has never been added to D. Stature, or to Terminator Armor.  Either would have given you the restriction you are looking for.  They haven't, and the USR has not been FAQed to cover those situations, sooo... those restrictions don't exist, per RAW.

My feeling is you only have two ways of looking at the rule, and either way supports my view.

If you want to go RAW, then it says "replaces special rules of the same name" which the does not apply to the veteran abilties because  they aren't in the CSM codex under the same name in the special rules section. They are listed under veteran abilites. So to be replace as per RAW, it would have to say "replaces veteran abilities of the same name". The FAQ help clarify by saying "the USR takes precedence over the veteran abilties". A requirement to take precedence is for there to be a conflict. There is no conflict under veteran abilties. This would mean that the veteran abilities is not changed and is applied as written.

Option 2, would be to try and divulge the designers intent, which I am pretty sure we are all in agreement since it was originally printed that way, that the Statured model, Terminator, etc , can not take Infiltrate.

Either way, you wind up with a Statured model that can't take Infiltrate. You can not claim RAW with a smattering of intent. Its either one way or the other, as they are mutualy exclusive.

Anything that is not a normal rule is a 'special rule'. By RAW, they are replaced regardless of whether or not it's listed as a Veteran Skill or whatever. They are all 'special rules'.

Hey Mort'!

Check out this FAQ.

http://us.games-workshop.com/errata/assets/csm_faq_v4-0.pdf

Hope my hyperlink works.

Under the heading Veteran Skills in the FAQ, it explicitely states:

"Veteran Skills that are printed in the Universal Special Rules section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook always take precedence over those printed in Codex: Chaos Space Marines."

You know, I have to admit that I had forgotten about tha FAQ.

Sal.

Posted By Saldiven on 02/28/2007 6:35 AM
Hey Mort'!

Check out this FAQ.

http://us.games-workshop.com/errata/assets/csm_faq_v4-0.pdf

Hope my hyperlink works.

Under the heading Veteran Skills in the FAQ, it explicitely states:

"Veteran Skills that are printed in the Universal Special Rules section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook always take precedence over those printed in Codex: Chaos Space Marines."

You know, I have to admit that I had forgotten about tha FAQ.

Sal.

I did mention it in my earlier posts. Thats where I got the term "precedence" from and my arguement that for there to be precedence there must be conflict, which I feel there isn't.

But it does change the whole "it's a veteran skill, not a special rule, so the Universal Special Rules don't apply" argument.

If the USR's didn't apply to vet skills, then this FAQ would never have been written.

Since it is obvious by this FAQ statement that the USR's do in fact apply to Vet Skills, then the USR heading that states the they replace the entry in the codex must also apply.

Or is the argument now, "The USR's apply to all "special rules" but since "veteran skills" are not "special rules", the USR's only apply to "veteran skills" when I percieve that there is a conflict between the USR and the Veteran Skill?"

Lastly, why does there have to be a conflict for ther word "precedence" to matter? I can't find any definition which even implies conflict; they only mention order or importance.

Sal.

The conflict is that the wording of the two entries is not identical. When the wording is not identical, the BGB working relpaces it.

You may as well claim that an opposing player's psychic power that effects "enemy models" has no effect on your models as you are not his "enemy", but are instead simply an "opposing player".