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I don't know if this idea has been brought up before, but one way to fix falcons, or all skimmers for that matter is to make the auto glancing when moving fast the same as obscuring for land based vehicles.

I.E, when a skimmer moves more than 6", all penetrating hits count as glancing hits on a 4+.

 

I think the fix should just be that fast skimmers shouldn't have armor values over 10-11. The problem right now is the AV 12-13 flying tanks that only glance, when you rarely beat their armor.

Another alternative:

Hard to Hit:  USR

Some targets are hard to hit.  Whether this is because of their blinding speed (skimmers moving fast) or their size (small targets).

When directing shooting attacks at a target that is subject to Hard to Hit, the attacker most re-roll all successful hits.  If the attcker is entitled to reroll misses because of another rule such as Twin-Linked, the re-rolls cancel.

---

This would make skimmers harder to hit, but no stronger than they are when standing still.  It uses the standard re-rolling mechanic, although in this case it applies to successes instead of failures.

I am not sure how it would interact with sharp-shooters or rending, both of which rely on specific results on the die rather than success vs failure.

i still propose of either getting rid of the spiritstones or penetrate skimmers in hand to hand. Its rediculous for a powerfist to only glance a vehicle when hes crushing the cockpit.

The problem is that to replace a simple mechanic (to hit modifiers), we are stuck with a horribly broken mechanic that somehow equates moving faster with having tougher armor. That is, instead of all the goofy "all hits glancing" bs that has caused problems, make moving over 6" -1 to hit, over 12" -2 to hit, and over 24" -3 to hit. Vehicles would be +1 to hit, super-heavies +2, titans +3 (how hard is it to hit something bigger than the broad side of a barn?). Small vehicles (like Land Speeders) would recieve no penalty, but Falcons & their ilk would.

Holofields could instead make the vehicle one size class smaller than it is. Obviously, all applicable penalties & bonuses stack, and to ensure balance, the one and six rule (ones always miss, sixes always hit) could be reinstated so no worries about needing 7+ to hit.

I think a combination of the first two posters would work well. Moving fast causes the vehicle to be obscured (makes sense really) and then on a codex by codex basis, making sure that fast skimmers have armor values that reflect their light armor for speed tradeoff.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Or if they need 7 to hit, they need to roll a 6, then a 4+. And if it's an 8, then it's a 6 followed by a six.

:p

Posted By frenrik on 05/11/2007 1:27 PM

the one and six rule (ones always miss, sixes always hit) could be reinstated so no worries about needing 7+ to hit.

Or if they need 7 to hit, they need to roll a 6, then a 4+. And if it's an 8, then it's a 6 followed by a six.

:p

Hush you!  That's just what I was trying to avoid! (Though that is exactly how it used to work in those days....) The rule of One & Six is just to streamline stuff and to ensure that  no matter how weak or strong something is, it always has a chance (though slim) to succeeed or fail, whichever the case may be.

I don't think any fixes needs to be as complicated as those suggested. I personally really like the idea of going back to the days that if your moving fast it makes it harder to hit it, but in all honesty I think an easy quick imperfect solution is better than a complex perfect fix.

Just make it so you have to roll a 4+ to make it a glancing hit should bring it much more in line with land vehicles.

Skimmers don't need fixing. Holofields need fixing.

Wave Serpents would be vastly over pointed if weaker - and they are pretty damn pricey now.

No Tau player worth his salt takes a hammerhead over 2 broadsides.

No-one has ever complained about the ravager.

Tornados are considered under pointed at 80 and overpointed at 100.

What did I miss? Apart from the Monolith, and the issues with that derive from its special rules, not the skimmer rule.

I think that is a great propoal to use obscuring for skimmers. It will add that fear factor which is definitely missing now. Eldar have so much good stuff one tiny little change is not really going to break them by any means.

- Greenie

How about 115 for a fire prism vs 115 for a hellhound? I don't know I think that skimmers with the ability to ignore difficult terrain combined with the fact that most of them are fast vehicles plus auto hull down for moving past 6" makes them much more effective than their land based counter parts.

No one ever buys a 115 point fire prism

I don't think the direct comparison is entirely fair as the prism competes with eldar heavy support while the hellhound competes with guard fast attack. The hellhound needs to be taken in the context of being able to field 3 hellhounds along with 3 leman russ and needs to be pointed proportionately.

Skimmers do get auto-glance, but fall out the sky on a glancing 5 and are generall either lower armour or more costly than land based equivalents.

For example marines pay 130 for a pred with twin-linked lascannon and 2 heavy bolters, whereas Tau pay 150 for the Hammerhead (plus 15pts of upgrades) for a tank with a longer ranger main gun, but much shorter range support weapons. The Hammerhead is more durable, but pays for it, and is probably less destructive in its armamentd due to the shorter range guns.

The problem comes with the eldar holofield / spirit stone combo which increases the durability of eldar tanks disproportionate to the points. The Holofield should have been a re-roll at best, not pick the lowest.

Tau skimmers aren't fast, except the Piranha and that's open top and lightly armoured so it's quite vulnerable to glancing hits.

Let's not shaft the Tau while finding a solution for Eldar. Just because a lot of people think there's a problem with Holofields it doesn't mean all skimmers are busted.

My suggestion

When a Skimmer Tank Shocks it may be penetrated by the death or glory atempt.

The reasoning being that normally the skimmer is hard to hit but if its coming right at you it makes a easier target.

This puts a stop to last minute easy objective grabs by Eldar and Tau by heavy skimmers and hopefully put a stop to VP denial.I don't think any point change would be needed and is not a complicated rule.This helps both close combat and shooty armies.IT makes the VP denial stratergy much harder as now instead of going for the skimmers the opponent go for the objectives.

i think that...

when rolling to hit a fast moving vehicle any rolls of 6's may be able to penetrate them as normal..

that would be rather interesting...

its not a massive change...but it would surely cut the survivability of skimmer tanks quite a bit..
that way most of the hits will still bounce off...but darn good shots would still smoke them..

however i don't think some armies deserve such...

hammer heads don't need it...there is only 2 anti-tank heavy support slots worth a hill of beans for tau...hammerheads and broadsides...

eldar could take it...just cause i don't like them..heh

same goes with spacemarine landspeeders bwahahaha

terrible idea

every bolter hit vs a speeder is a penetrating hit. ditto every assault cannon hit against falcons and every missile pod/plasma gun vs hammerheads

Eldar skimmer tanks are going to get nerfed sooner or later and they deserve it, as they are just too good now and it requires no skill to use them effectively.

- Greenie

quite right, sorry.

still don't like idea though, as the problem is onl with holofield, not with skimmers

thanks for elaborating what i said shirou...im not exactly the most blunt with my speaking

it would be sort of like adding the eldar ranger ap 1 rule to anything shooting fast skimmers..

but certain instances should be ignored..

i dont think you should be able to penetrate a fast moving skimmer in close combat...unless you are a monsterous creature or something...i just dont see a marine jumping up and smacking something full on going 80 or 90 miles per hour (respectively) and even then some monsterous creatures would just get shredded....

mr hive tyrant reaches up and smacks a landspeeder going full tilt....it would rip his little arms off

and flying vehicles....pfft you need a 6 to hit them ANYWAYS so that wouldnt make any sense..

This is why I think the return of to-hit modifiers is the better solution. It still allows skimmers, particularly the small fast variety, to retain their "toughness" (through avoidance of taking fire by means of speed & agility), while heavier skimmers will not be particularly more vulnerable than they already are and with 6's still hitting, holofields would no longer be the broken piece of wargear they currently are.

Regarding H2H, using GimpMaster's analogy above, Mr. Hive Tyrant reaches up, smacks landspeeder going full tilt, has his arms ripped off and (quite possibly) also causes said speeder to crash as the impact destroys avionics, control systems or whatever (look up bird strikes on modern aircraft for a real life example). Perhaps only jump infantry/flying monsters would be able to strike skimmers/flyers in the air, and then it would be like some sort of airborne "death or glory".

it'd sure be fluffy if you took something akin  to a strength 6 auto-hitting power weapon attack for being able to penetrate a fast moving skimmer..


now that'd be fun..

landspeeders of doom careening through troops

Nyarlathote667, we all know we would like modifiers back, but to do so means rewriting the whole game. It won't happen.

We did playtest the fast skimmer rule working the same as the hull down rule with a 50% chance of it being glanced, and it seemed to work well for most skimmers. We didn't see any huge affect in the game except that people were a little more careful about their fast skimmers. They started using cover instead of blasting out into the open, this included Tornados. It was just the threat of a penetrating hit that did it. Caused us to totally change how we played. Funny thing was, our testing didn't work out as planned as most of the vehicles were brought down by glancing hits anyway, and we didn't get many pens.

It fits with the current rules, is simple, and is quite a change in how people use their vehicles. Seemed to work all around for us.

Posted By Toreador on 05/14/2007 12:15 PM
Nyarlathote667, we all know we would like modifiers back, but to do so means rewriting the whole game. It won't happen.

Sure it could: 5th Edition. This current one is a giant muddled piece of crap and needs a complete overhaul anyway. Instead of simplifying the game, the removal of modifiers has made ridiculously overcomplicated (and unbalanced in this case) with it's exceptions to exceptions to exceptions of the basic ruleset.

One of the big things that killed it in my opinion was also the lack of tactical foot movement. You can no longer run, unless Eldar, and even then it is unreliable at best. Without running you can't push a flank with foot infantry. Everything else I can live with in parts, but the movement system really put the final nail in it.

I imagine just like the armour system the movement system was to help give a feel in the game to what space marines are suppose to be on the field of battle, but the end effect kills a lot of the game.

Nice sig... Roy Batty from Blade Runner I believe. My all time favorite movie btw.



- Greenie

And mine. New edition is suppose to be out soon, with new material shot for it. Supposedly a "Directors Cut" the way he wanted it to be, not that thing that was put out awhile ago.

One of my favorite lines and scenes....

So either they fix skimmers in some easy way that doesn't break the current rules, or they rewrite the system, which I doubt they will do.

The system will get rewritten eventually.  However,we have a greater chance of seeing a rewritten Eldar 'dex in which their skimmers aren't unkillable first.  Ultimately,the biggest problems with skimmers stem from cheesed-out options,like Spirt Stones,Holofields,Vectored Engines,and Tau Landing Gear.   As cheesey as Holofields are,Vectored Engines and Landing Gear really baffle me.  Skimmers are given great advantages.  Their disadvantage is that they get destroyed on an Immobilised result.  Sooo...we write up options for the two armies that rely on skimmers the most that chucks that weakness out the window?

General Skimmer rules fixes where as to Nerf eldar/Tau skimmers will spell the doom of Dark Eldar skimmers which are the few skimmers left that dont have any sort of wargear that aleviates the weaknesses of skimmers. The best thing to do is to modify the wargear that makes skimmers near invincible or to make them cost more for what they do. If I had holofields on my Raiders I would gladly pay 30 points to have some protection.

I also find it unfair that now Dark Eldar are nolonger the fastest army thanks to star engines that makes DE obsolete now and inferior to their Eldar cousins.