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At least dark eldar know how to throw a nice get together.

I agree that the no auto-glance rule would put skimmers back where they should be.  I believe that they could give Skimmers some sort of savings throw dependant on how fast they are moving.  It makes sense to me that if skimmers slow down to shoot or deploy troops that they should be vulnerable.  Dark Eldar need an overhaul anyway, but I think that if GW can implement a good fix for skimmers and monstrous creatures the next edition of rules will be way more balanced.

I can understand a dark eldar player's concern about weakening their skimmers, but to be honest they still are destroyed easily for the most part as the rules stand now. The Falcon is the true target of this conversation.

- Greenie

And with the minimal playtesting we have done with making the always glance a 50/50 save it didn't seem to affect the game all that much. DE also have some nifty toys to avoid being shot. It would take more testing, but I bet making the fast skimmer rule work like hull down wouldn't be that bad of a thing. I do have one thing to tack on to that. We decided though that vehicles that start on the board should be able to choose to be going fast at the start of the game as a sort of balancer. It tends to calm down what affect that first turn has on skimmer armies, and with a 50% glance it still gives a chance of 1st turn penetrations. A decent trade off.

I agree with the moving at start of game rule. It doesn't make a lot of sense my skimmers are just hovering there when the game starts.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Okay so why not just say that Falcons cannot ever be penetrated or glanced? And let's undercost Harlies down to 8 points apiece while we are at it.



- Greenie

Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 05/13/2007 4:33 PM
Regarding H2H, using GimpMaster's analogy above, Mr. Hive Tyrant reaches up, smacks landspeeder going full tilt, has his arms ripped off and (quite possibly) also causes said speeder to crash as the impact destroys avionics, control systems or whatever (look up bird strikes on modern aircraft for a real life example). Perhaps only jump infantry/flying monsters would be able to strike skimmers/flyers in the air, and then it would be like some sort of airborne "death or glory".

Sounds more like death and glory to me.  Birds do in fact do quite a bit of damage to modern aircraft, but I'm willing to bet the bird casualty rate is 100% in any situation where they do significant damage to the aircraft.  Sure power armor and all that could help but I think the current rules (accounting for small arms fire and the like) are sufficent.

Bump their cost up, or the cost of landed vehicles down.

Its not the skimmer rule that makes them hard to kill its the wargear. Leave them alone skimmer armies are based around light armored troops anyways.

If you only listen to yourself you will probably like what you hear. This thread is about fixing something seriously broken as an egg shell after an omelette festival.

- Greenie

Here's what I would suggest.

Currently, in game there is:

Glancing table.
Penetrate table
Ordnance Penetrate table.

What we need is a Skimmer Moved Fast Penetrate table.

I would suggest something between the glance and pen table.
1 shaken
2 stunned
3 weapon
4 immobilized
5 destroyed
6 destroyed.

Just the penetrate table -1, or the glancing table +1

What would happen with Open-topped skimmers? Would they add a further +1?

I still like the original idea, treat a skimmer moving fast as obscured. The rule already exists, it makes sense from an in-game perspective, and its easy to remember.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

K.I.S.S. Keep it simple stupid. It's a good rule to follow. (not calling anyone stupid)

It fits in the rules, and hull down used to be the same thing. I don't think it would kill the game. I would like to see people playtest it out with different skimmer and see what they think. Skimmer currently have a very quick movement and can use this to avoid being shot at, or at least limit it. We didn't see much of a change, except that people did tend to not just banzai the fast vehicles out in the middle of the borard like they used to. They actually started thinking about how to get where they were going. It actually put a little fear out there.

Fear keeps us honest my friend.

- Greenie

Lets face it skimmers are fine just as they are. Just dont try and hit them in cc. The only "skimmer" thats broken is the monolith. The rest really are not that hard to kill.

Lets face it skimmers are fine just as they are. Just dont try and hit them in cc. The only "skimmer" thats broken is the monolith. The rest really are not that hard to kill.

Do you think so?

I think the Monolith isn't that unbalanced. It has a hefty price tag after all. The Holofield combined with the spirit stones is pretty nasty, imo. But honestly, a swing in the depowering direction to drastically and the falcon is useless...also not good.

Greets
Schepp himself

Falcon with holofield/spiritstone/vectored engines/shurican cannon/scatter laser is 20 points less than a monolith. So they are both have "hefty price tag".

Immunity to assault cannons and tank hunting havocks, as well as melta weapons being next to useless against them vs the holofield effect gives the edge to the monolith against most opponents.

Definatly, the skimmer is not that hard to take down i have to roll two dice and take the lowest big deal.
Like i said the armies they are in have t 3 and low armour usually so they NEED something to protect there hides.
The nice thing about the monolith is that it is not a fast vehicle and thus can always be hit on 4+ in cc.

Fast vehicle just affects how you move, and what you can fire while moving. Skimmer rule is what makes you needing 6's to hit you in hth (you always count as moving more than 6" fro that).

Ya but it does not move more than 6". And if you look that rule is stated under the fast vehicles rule not skimmers. For skimmers the rule is its always a glance and they get the move fast also.

Posted By 5thelement on 05/21/2007 3:46 PM
Ya but it does not move more than 6". And if you look that rule is stated under the fast vehicles rule not skimmers. For skimmers the rule is its always a glance and they get the move fast also.

No, skimmers always count as moving more than 6" for the purposes of assault. Therefore, unless you have a special rule (like Swooping Hawks with an Intercepting Exarch), you will always need a 6+ to hit a Monolith.

I am going to have to disagree with you here.  The fact that the monolith can be penetrated normally, is vulnerable to ap1.  Is easy meat vs railguns, means that it is not nearly as tough as a falcon.  Do the math, vs anything other than str 7 it takes more hits to take out a falcon than a monolith on average. 

And for doubles to have much affect on a Falcon you need to be lucky. I have seen it done, but it is very very hard. Monoliths offset their toughness with the fact that you can phase out the army easier. You don't need to defeat the monolith, just the army.

Posted By 5thelement on 05/21/2007 1:58 PM
Definatly, the skimmer is not that hard to take down i have to roll two dice and take the lowest big deal.
Like i said the armies they are in have t 3 and low armour usually so they NEED something to protect there hides.
The nice thing about the monolith is that it is not a fast vehicle and thus can always be hit on 4+ in cc.

Wait a minute, you're trying to tell me that take two dice pick the lowest on the glancing table on a vehicle that can't be stunned is somehow easier to deal with than the Monolith?

I can tell you right now which I'd rather face against with my Marines in the case of the Falcon vs Monolith and it ain't made of living Metal.

The Falcon and Fire Prism are far and away the hardest tanks to kill in the entire game.  Killing the Monolith is childs play by comparison. 

And I don't mind the Fire Prism as much. A weapon destroyed pretty much nullifies it, and it can't carry troops.

With vectored engines they pretty much nullify the skimmers vulnerability to immobilization, and it takes even more shots to finally destroy them.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 05/22/2007 10:04 AM

Posted By 5thelement on 05/21/2007 1:58 PM
Definatly, the skimmer is not that hard to take down i have to roll two dice and take the lowest big deal.
Like i said the armies they are in have t 3 and low armour usually so they NEED something to protect there hides.
The nice thing about the monolith is that it is not a fast vehicle and thus can always be hit on 4+ in cc.

Wait a minute, you're trying to tell me that take two dice pick the lowest on the glancing table on a vehicle that can't be stunned is somehow easier to deal with than the Monolith?

I can tell you right now which I'd rather face against with my Marines in the case of the Falcon vs Monolith and it ain't made of living Metal.

The Falcon and Fire Prism are far and away the hardest tanks to kill in the entire game.  Killing the Monolith is childs play by comparison. 

I said most.  Tau are the most obvious exception.

Anyone who doesn't have str 9 or better guns in general. 

I don't think most ork players would agree that taking out a monolith is childs play.   Rokkets have a better chance to do something to a falcon than a monolith.  Most eldar and dark eldar lists have next to no chance to take out a monolith. 

As far as do the math.
Las cannon, after it hits monolith. 1/9 chance of killing a monolith and 2/3 chance to do nothing.
Las cannon, after it hits a falcon.  1/9 chance of killing a falcon and only 1/3 chance to do nothing.

edit: Forgot about vectored engines.  immoblize/destroy is 1/9 for the falcon.  Just destroy is 1/54.

But again, most armies, Orks included ignore Monoliths and destroy the army. It's slow, and short ranged, something the Falcon is not. A Monolith is less troops which is very bad against an ork horde....

Posted By 5thelement on 05/21/2007 1:58 PM
Definatly, the skimmer is not that hard to take down i have to roll two dice and take the lowest big deal.
Like i said the armies they are in have t 3 and low armour usually so they NEED something to protect there hides.
The nice thing about the monolith is that it is not a fast vehicle and thus can always be hit on 4+ in cc.

That army also has a T8 monstrous creature with a 3+ save, you can't tell me that's not resilient.

I don't think making glancing on a fast moving skimmer happen 50% of the time is a drastic downgrade.  It is still a huge improvement over land based vehicles, which has to look for terrain instead of just moving 6+".

You can take down weak skimmers with bolters, And tough ones go down to massed fire easier than any single powerful shot on a monolith. Massed assault canons, massed melta, massed auto canons, So what if its a glance it still dies from half the outcomes of the glance. You still get all your vehicle bonuses against the skimmer not the monolith. Usually you might face what? two falcons would be worst case scenario. And look whats inside some weak armour toughness three. They need this.
Cant even compare the wraithlord, although he dies easy enough to scouts, not even a comparison. And by the way you will never see him hopping a ride on a falcon or a wave serpant. Skimmers are hard but the armies they are in have weak troops compared to the MASS of marine players out there.