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I took a unit of 6 to the Las Vegas GT, and they ended up doing a lot of nothing.

So here are the problems I had with my Harlequins:

#1. What often happened was that my Harlequins ended up assaulting large squads, and they killed a few and then they were crippled buy just the few attacks back. They only time they ended up doing well was against some small squads that I was able to nearly wipe out when they assaulted, which in turn limited the return damage.

  #2. I was never able to leap out of combat after the initial assault, because then my opponent would just rapid fire them to death. So I was stuck in for 2 rounds of combat. On my opponents turn I was counter-charged, and harlequins lose a lot of momentum without the added attacks on the charge, and striking only with strength 3. With one exception, they were always wiped out.

  #3. I have fought the foot slogging Harlequins before, and they always get shot to pieces before they can even reach me.  From a Marine squad in a Rhino to drive up and rapid fire, to Land Speeders and Vypers, to just units like Dire Avengers to move forward will completely wipe them out.

 

So then the question is, if footslogging Harlequins get shot to pieces, and 6 in a falcon are not enough to do much damage, then how do you use them effectively?

  Do you need to take 3 falcons all with 18 Harlies, or 30 footsloggers?

When I use them, it is predominatly footslogging in COD.

But that doesnt help your case much being mechanized.

For the hit and run, I am not sure if I am reading your usage correctly, but I always make sure I jump out of comabt during the opponents turn.
This ensures that they lock the opponent up during his turn, but am allowed to re-assault on my turn. Thus saving you from being fired upon.
Not much you can do to prevent counter charge though. Thats just good play on the opponents behalf.

But while harlies are nice, they are a bit overrated. Lots of better ways to spend points in the list without resorting to harlies. If your going to spend the points, you may as well get a squad of shining spears. Not as many models for the points as ten harlies, but they are more survivable, more manuverable, able to tankhunt better, Hits harder, better ranged capabilty in strength, can evade combat just like harlies, just as likely to draw fire away from other more delicate elements, etc.

Plus, they are arguably ten times cooler looking than harlies. Atleast IMO. But I am biased, as I play a Saim Hann army with no falcons...

My opponent uses Eldar and he always fields a full squad of Harlies with the rending weapon upgrade and the field that makes them hard to spot 2D6 x2.

Against a poorly supported section of the battle field they can rip into the heart of the enemy with frightening speed and skill.

However, when he attacks a decent or well defended section of my battle line then they cause enough fear to make me move anything I can to give a helping hand so they tend to die quickly against numerous foes.

Even so, they still deal enough damage before being killed and because I've sometimes had to move poeple out of position to assist the combat or move away from it which can cause gaps in my battle line.

In a nut shell, Harlies are extremely effective against a poorly defended side, and if used against a well defended side then they can cause a good deal of disruption.

I should know, I hate the bloody things hehe

They can kill a firebase.

Las/Plas squads, Combat Squadding Devastator Squads (5 Marines). They can just ravage an entire IG gunline if the assault is setup right (which it can be using the Falcon), they can be counted on to take out an advancing Flyrant, or a GunFex in cover in the opponents back field struggling to get their VC/BS stuff to work out against the skimmers in your army.

Dealing with Harlies via a Falcon is a hard thing to do and it forces your opponent into a tough situation.

Playing against them, I have to space my squads further apart than usual to avoid consolodating masacre rolls to keep harlies in CC.  I know, 7" sounds like a pittance, boo hoo - but it sure does suck when there's only a few good pieces of cover to deploy in. 

I basically have to sacrifice a shooty unit to their assault and then either counter charge with my other shooty squads (who then stop shooting) or keep units in reserve to shoot the harlies after they massacre the squad they charged. So I have to keep things like Speeders in reserve back in my DZ hiding and waiting for the opportunity to pounce on Harlies once they're in the open - or they'll just eat through my fire base.

They can eat deepstriking terminator squads (and those aren't common, at ALL), in fact they're great against almost any high toughness/save model count unit in the game. If you're consistently not rolling enough sixes in a game, buy a good set of balanced casino dice, you'll see things even out.

Couple of questions: Did you give them all the Kiss? And did you make one a ShadowSeer? Those two are 'requirements'

When you attack a larger unit, use your movement and fleet to position them to only be able to engage a portion of the enemy on the charge. As an extreme example, if they are in a line like a ruler, don't hit them flat, hit them at one end, that way you can kill all/almost all the enemy in the kill zone.

6 Harlies, 24 attacks, 4 rends, 1-2 kills otherwise, taking out 5-6 models should empty the kill zone.

Hit and run at the end of opponents assault phase, so you can get the charge again. Or you can use it to get behind another unit of yours, but that is trickier.

Footslogging Harlies can't just walk forward.... They need to either use lots of terrain, or be following another unit as a countercharge 'defensive' unit, then they can move forward and attack.

To the OP, sounds like you were overly aggressive with them. You cant drop 6 models into the center of an army and expect them to kill everything (though you can have one librarinan say BOO and scare an entire army off *grumble*). The falcons and harelquins have the speed to engage where the opponent is weak, try putting them at the very edge of your opponent's firebase.

Posted By coredump on 06/05/2007 5:14 AM

Couple of questions: #1.  Did you give them all the Kiss? And did you make one a ShadowSeer? Those two are 'requirements'

#2. When you attack a larger unit, use your movement and fleet to position them to only be able to engage a portion of the enemy on the charge. As an extreme example, if they are in a line like a ruler, don't hit them flat, hit them at one end, that way you can kill all/almost all the enemy in the kill zone.

#3. 6 Harlies, 24 attacks, 4 rends, 1-2 kills otherwise, taking out 5-6 models should empty the kill zone.

#4. Hit and run at the end of opponents assault phase, so you can get the charge again. Or you can use it to get behind another unit of yours, but that is trickier.

#5. Footslogging Harlies can't just walk forward.... They need to either use lots of terrain, or be following another unit as a countercharge 'defensive' unit, then they can move forward and attack.

#1.  i brought this to the LVGT:

  4 Harlequins w/Kiss
1 Shadowseer w/Kiss
1 Troup Leader w/Power Weapon

I had been using all 6 with a kiss, but I put in the troup leader because I don't roll a lot of '6's.

#2. Since I was not using fire prisms, my opponents units were packed in like sardines. What made it worst was because of my dark reapers, they were clustered behind vehicles and other terrain. There was not a lot of edges to assault.

#3. 6 Harlies to marines will do 4 rends, and 12 hits=6 wounds and that means 2 failed saves. So 6 dead marines on average, and I roll below average.

$4. Hit and run at the end of the opponents phase would be nice if they were still alive.

#5. That is the way I am thinking about playing them. Have shining spears, or jetbikes assault to screen them, or lock units in combat so they can't run away. Then hit them with the harlies.



I hit a squad of termies and rolled 3 rends which he saved one, and the rest made their 2+ save. Then the other 3 squished 4 harlies with their powerfists,

Which means he rolled better than average (Should have been 5/3 harlies squishified)

Re: The Termies - OK, so you rolled bad, it happens. Last Sunday I rapid fired 14 Necron Warriors at the side of a Rhino, managed 2 glances, both of which came up as a 1 or a 2.

It doesn't change the fact that the squad will work on average against what you throw them at, especially terminators. Also your troupe leader with PW didn't do anything?

Honestly the only advice I can give you with Harlies is that you screw those points on the troupe leader and just throw in another regular guy with the kiss and call it a day. More dice = more chances to rend, which coincidentally is what changes rending from a somewhat nifty rule to the overpowered cheeseblock it plays out to be on the table. Harlies can mass rending attacks, it's what they do. Buy balanced dice, give all the harlies rending, and watch the magic of Clowns on a Plane make your opponents blanche.

A lot of solid comments here. One thing it does nicely is worry opponents who take 6-man MEQ squads, you can generally cause enough casualties in one turn to break them effectively, if not annihilate them. The latter is less useful due to the unpredictability of massacre results, though.

As said here, it's all about how you bring them to bear, not purely the squad size and options taken. Something I think people easily forget in their pursuit of the 'optimal' army lists

I think you're right on the point of how you use them, but the point of squad sizes is set in stone. Harlequins come in squads of 6 with a Shadowseer, so they can go into a Falcon and see combat, otherwise they're really not going to do a whole lot.

As far as utility, they're awesome against the firebase of any Marine army, loyalist or Chaos. 6 Man Las/Plas will probably die to them on the charge, as will 5 Man squads (combat squadding Devs), which no matter which marine list you play is the way you get a lot of heavy weapons into your army.

The problem with them is that most of the time you don't want to kill the whole squad, because if your opponent was smart you won't be able to consolidate/massacre into a new unit - meaning you're in the open and are going to get shot. That's how I deal with Harlies for the most part. The key is hitting units on the side with them or clearing the kill zone.

6 Harlies means 6 MEQ deaths, even in a squad of 10 Marines, that's a possible maximum of 6 attacks back (assuming a vet with PF is left alive), a minimum of 4. They need 4's to hit, 3's to wound (2's for fist), and Harlies get a 5+ Save. If there are 4 attacks back, it's .89 or 1 harlie dead. If there's a PF in there, that's 1.5 Harlies dead. Where the marines will likely hold due to leadership rules, and you will finish them off in subsequent rounds, massacre, and move on.

That's assaulting a 10 Man squad of marines, which is rare to see in tournaments I think. Personally I'd rather see a harlequin unit face that setup rather than having to charge into a squad of 5 or 6 Marines and then die due to killing everything and getting shot due to being out in the open.

What you had happen was a case of bad rolling, like I said it happens. It took about 3 Months before I realized how good assault cannons were when I started playing Marines - they never really did any rending for me - till I took a ton of them. Now I see their utility and how broken they are after some experience with them. Harlies will probably be the same way for you as you continue to use them.

I use them as a counter assault unit. Keeping them back, and in or near cover to engage anything that gets into my lines.

Falcons are nice for them, but watch out for opponents blocking the rear ramp so the can't deploy if you get too close. Bikes do a great job of that.

I have never seen them do what theory hammer says they should be able to do. They are a real glass tiger, but you can really change your opponents plans just by putting them on the board.

"Glass tiger" is a great way to describe them, I like that!

well, i run a squad of 6 hrlies with kisses and a seer, making them an average of 27pts each... This means that i only tend to hit largish targets where they will make their points back, eg ds termies, or wraithguard. Large creatures really do drop to their rending and high WS...

my best payment from them was when i got into the middle of a marine firing line, i took out 1 devestator squad after 2 rounds, meaning i wasn't shot at, and with a hand 6" massacre and then a decent fleet result.. the next dev squad was in charge range.. tehe tehe...

I also keep them in a falcon to prep for ds termies, just relies on the termies to not pwn the falcon, bc if it lives, out come the harlies ready to make a nasty marine based mess...

also, fortune is a life saver, turns their mediocre 5+ save to a 5/9 save, and as its invul, that means they have a better save than any marine model (iron halo being 4+)... makes them FAR more durable, this is the sole reason i run them on foot, put farseer nearby, or in the squad...

also, i find if i take more than 6, they destroy the enemy in the first round, meaning they get a nasty round of shootiness against them...

Fortune is an ass and should be banned from the 40K universe and then smited by some powerful creature for being so damn annoying hehe

When I play my eldar opponent he either follows up his Avatar or wraithlord casting fortune or he follows behind the harlies casting fortune on them, throwing those singing spears and also assisting in assualts if his side looks like it might lose.

And as Harlies get both a normal and invulrable save (granted it is 5+) the fortune spell give a huge advantage to the Harlies, when they also have rending weapons in the squad thats a potent team.

mabey its just me, but as a tau player with lots of skimmer tanks i say put a large squad in a wave serpent instead of a small squad in a falcon. that way you get them where they need to go and they have the force of numbers to do the job.

with spirit stone it may not be as hard to take down as a falcon with the hollow field, but almost. the only way they will stop it moving is on a glance 5 or 6, and it frees up the falcon to do the run&gun job it is supposed to do. sure the falcon can carry troops and act as a transport, but thats not what its primary mission is.

 

harlies may have flair, they may be a cool unit choice but foot slogging them in most normal games will only get them killed by your opponant rolling really good to spot them or by weapons that specifically do not need to see them to shoot them.

Harlies can't ever ride in a waveserpent.

And it is definitely not "almost" as hard to take down a waveserpent than a falcon...

also, if you run 10 harlies into a decent target deserving of their attention, they tend to wipe it out, which means they are a sitting target in the opponents shoting phase...

In 1000 point games (most common at local hobby shops) I footslog a 6 harley squad (troupe leader w/pw, Shadowseer w/kiss, 4x kisses) in an Alaitoc style list. I find one of their greatest strengths is reputation... opponents tend to "over respect" them. I try to take advantage of it by running feints with them. I run them towards a weak flank, but always toward cover or to a spot where the Shadowseer will protect them from fire. I don't usually have any intention of charging, unless the opportunity is too much to pass up. I've had good results with it affecting my opponent's advance by either slowing him down, or making him move laterally to support the target of my feint. It keeps them off balance. This is very beneficial as it keeps my strong firebase from being charged, or at least delays it, allowing my firebase to inflict more damage. And if there's an assault threat on it, the Harley's become a great countercharge unit.

Bottom line is they don't have to be in combat to be very helpful.

Always go for a full squad of footsloggers with a Shadowseer and Harlequin's kisses all around. They have 3 rending attacks each, I7 on the charge, and are unlikely to get shot because the Shadowseer require opponents to roll 2DS*2 for seeing distance... an average distance of 14". It's a pricey unit, but will survive better than a 6-man squad (no offense... but a 6-man squad!?!?!?!). And as for hit-and-run, you can afford to be in combat for multiple assaults if you arm all of them with rending, because there will seldom be anything left to worry about. Another consideration is to have a smaller, but not too small (7- or 8-strong) unit without rending (or with, your choice) and use it as a support squad. In the late turns of the game, they can hit-and-run and shift key assaults in your favor.

Never take Harlis without taking rending..... total waste.

Posted By shirou on 06/11/2007 6:51 PM
mughi3: Although the veil of tears does refer to a "spotting distance," the rule is that a unit must be within that spotting distance to target the Harlequins, not to see the Harlequins, so weapons that don't require line of sight still cannot shoot at the Shadowseer's troupe without passing the veil of tears test.

There are still a few things that can 'shoot' them such as Vibro Cannons and Fury of the Ancients.

 

 

Posted By shirou on 06/11/2007 6:51 PM
mughi3: Although the veil of tears does refer to a "spotting distance," the rule is that a unit must be within that spotting distance to target the Harlequins, not to see the Harlequins, so weapons that don't require line of sight still cannot shoot at the Shadowseer's troupe without passing the veil of tears test.

the only problem with that is things like basilisks do not need spoting distance as they never spot. in fact because they never spot  it is the reason for the scatter roll the randomness is already built into the rules so a VOT test is irrelevant by the RAW.

i fully expect an FAQ to come out soon that treats it like shooting at stealth suits where you roll 3d6 instead of 2 with the scatter.

 

 tau smart missles systems are also immune to the VOT role as per thier rules they do not spot, they have an onboard AI that "searches for and hunts down"  its targets and can target anything withing 24" of the firing unit reguardless of spotting, sight, terrain etc.. as per the RAW

Basilisks target. You can't target harlies unless your unit firing is in target range.

And you're the guy that thought harlies could ride in wave serpents...I'd be giving up on arguing this point right now if I were you. You might throw the RAW acronym around a bit but to me that's just a dirty word, and all I hear is "I suck".

Posted By onlainari on 06/12/2007 3:15 AM
Basilisks target. You can't target harlies unless your unit firing is in target range.

And you're the guy that thought harlies could ride in wave serpents...I'd be giving up on arguing this point right now if I were you. You might throw the RAW acronym around a bit but to me that's just a dirty word, and all I hear is "I suck".

1.i don't own the new eldar codex and barely flipped trhough it. so i didn't know they could not ride in a serpent, i just seemed to recall a serpent could carry more bodies than a falcon.

2. im not arguing anything GW makes some unlcear, shaky and sometimes outright contradictory rules. this is simple the RAW, in this case we have a special rule in conflict with other standard and special rules. other things in the game that are similar to the VOT like GK shrouding and tau stealth suits also require a spot check to be targeted and shot at but they are also not safe from weapons that do not need to roll to spot them like indirect fire weapons such as basalisk,  or tau smart missles systems. the wording of the RAW is to make a "spotting distance" check in order to target them. the rules for the above mentioned weapons systems specifically remove the need to make a spot check as they are guess or self guided systems.

 

which is why i fully expect to se an FAQ on the matter from GW in the near future.  

Does a Basilisk need to 'target' a unit, yes. Harlis can't be targetted, hence....

Now, a Vibrocannon doesn't target, so I would say you could hit the harlies with one of those.

the problem i said wasnt with them being stuck in combat, rather the opposite... anything which can take a hit from a squad of 10 rending harlies (40 attacks) and last more than 2 turns is likely to be a tarpit, and as such, why are your harlies there?

Anything where they can pay fro themselves tend to be small expensive units, which will die in one round against 40 rending attacks, meaning you get shot to pieces... a bad situation for your expensive harlies...

Mughi, if you want to take it to You Make The Call, you can, but it's redundant. Here's the long and the short of it:

Every shooting attack in the game targets a unit, except for Vibrocannons and Fury of the Ancients. Spotting is totally different. Spotting is required by Night Fight and some unit special rules in order to get LOS to a gven unit. Weapons which don't need LOS (indirect, Smart Missile System, AS WELL as V-cannons and FotA) can get around the spotting rules in Nightfighting, and which protect Grey Knights and Stealth Suits, but Harlequins have a different rule. It's not about spotting them so as to get LOS, it's about needing to be within the rolled distance to target them.

Posted By Mannahnin on 06/12/2007 8:54 AM
Mughi, if you want to take it to You Make The Call, you can, but it's redundant. Here's the long and the short of it:

Every shooting attack in the game targets a unit, except for Vibrocannons and Fury of the Ancients. Spotting is totally different. Spotting is required by Night Fight and some unit special rules in order to get LOS to a gven unit. Weapons which don't need LOS (indirect, Smart Missile System, AS WELL as V-cannons and FotA) can get around the spotting rules in Nightfighting, and which protect Grey Knights and Stealth Suits, but Harlequins have a different rule. It's not about spotting them so as to get LOS, it's about needing to be within the rolled distance to target them.

unfortunately the really short of it is

VOT-spot check is required to target them

the weapons systems mentioned specifically do not spot to target. its just semantics-spotting and seeing the target are the same thing. the SMS goes even further by saying that they can target any unit within 24" (thier range)reguardless of nightfight, LOS etc..

so for them it is-no spot check required to target

 

these 2 rules are directly contradictory GW should have included something in the VOT rules as to how they are affected by things like indirect fire weapons and SMSs (which they eventualy had to do for the other "stealth' like special units and rules).  which is why i expect an FAQ from GW eventually. i just wish they would think of these things before they put thier codex's into print.