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My news, to qualify this as N&R, is that the UK site has all the Apoc formations up for pre-order now.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=List_Models&code=302054&orignav=10

I expect the US prices to be much better. In any case, I've been going over some of the different 'bundles', and I cannot for the life of me think why GW would be doing this.

Take the Ork Dread Mob.

It has 6 Killer Kanz and 3 Orky Dreadz. To buy them separately costs £162, yet to buy the Apoc release costs £100. To put that into numbers more meaningful to Americans and Australians (such as myself), that's a saving of USD$125 and AUD$152.

What about the Space Marine Armoured Spearhead. It has 1 Land Raider Crusader, 2 Land Raiders, and 1 Land Raider Kitbash. This is, again, £100. If you buy them separately, it's £145. That's a USD$90/AUD$111 saving.

So, I have to ask - Why are they doing this? What benefit is there for them? This is a company that raises it's prices 10-30% every couple of years for no apparent reason (case in point - all non-core boxed sets across all ranges are going up in Australia this month, for no reason). Yet here they are offering Land Raiders at £25 each rather than £30 each.

Does this make any sense?

BYE

My take on this being in wholesale is that first off it looks good for the books (yeah they aren't making as much, but hell look how many they should sale) and second it will help their stock and status for the up coming end of year.
i probably wrong, but.... its GW do they need a reason for the craziness.
I'm a happy Fanboi hope they keep it up.

GW doesn't raise prices "for no reason", they raise prices because that's how they think they'll make the most money.

Obviously they now feel that selling bulk items for a discounted price is a tactic that will work for them (at least for a limited time).

Who knows if this trend will continue after the Apoc boxes are long gone? Perhaps if these sets sell well they will start making more of their boxed sets actual deals?


The only thing we know for sure is: GW is doing it because they think it will make them money. Why they suddenly decided that this tactic will make them money when they obviously didn't feel that way before is only going to be rampant speculation on our part.


But I'm sure people will speculate anyway (because isn't that half the fun?).


Here's my speculative guess:

Apocalypse is an attempt to get people to buy lots and lots of miniatures. However, many veteran players already have plenty of points in their collections to play Apocalypse games without buying a single miniature.

Therefore GW decided to include the 'formation' rules in Apocalypse to try to entice players to get even more models in order to field a whole formation. By having a discounted box set for formations, GW really offers enticement to players who already have plenty of models but want to field a particular formation because they like the way it looks or plays in Apocalypse.

Okay, I don't normally go in for cynical speculation, but here's my best guess:

Kirby or whomever's calling the shots thinks that Apocalypse can be a big, long-term money-maker. However that will only take place if a lot of people play it. The cheap splash releases are a sort of boost to get apocalypse off the ground, to ensure that a goodly number of players have huge armies, and to encourage that sort of play (3000+ point battles and such). Once Apocalypse battles become popular, there will be pressure on people entering the hobby to buy lots and lots of stuff so they can play Apocalypse too. Lots and lots of stuff = lots and lots of profits.

Of course, a lot of people balk at buying even a 1500 point army, so this strategy could backfire. Expect to see a large roll-out of some sort of kill-team / Necromunda variant in two years time if all does not go well in the annual reports.

One thing that needs to be considered is their attempt at warhammer online, thats millions wasted there which they have to recoup somehow. Along with their falling share prices and increased concentration on kids and not vets, this is their way of trying to save themselves. (kiddies want to have bloodbaths and not tactical games)
About their cheaper prices, the stuff they sell is already hugely overpriced, if they can get 1/3-1/2 of their market with large armies playing 3k+ games where most of the options cant be used outside of apoc and get the rest to pay full price, they have made a long term win - where but apoc will you use: big gun templates? vindi line breaker squads? terminus LR? SM company? Answer: no-where. This expansion is similar to COD but in apoc your left with a lot of useless options if you want to play a normal game.

I'd say that COG pretty much has it, but also to add:

I'd guess that the vast majority of casual players out there do not have much impetus to own 5 dreadnoughts, or multiple main battle tanks etc. They probably have one dread, one MBT max. So, if GW shifts relatively less units of MBT's etc. to the buying population , this can help to address that.

In addition, I have always had the impression big box sets are what get purchased for Little Johnny by parents/relatives, so these also feed that market.

And finally there's the veteran / hard core gamer who is just drawn in by the idea of playing some crazy formations, and is essentially attracted by the core ethos of the apocalypse system. And fielding stupid numbers of tanks etc.

Obviously in the above I'm generalising that the majority of box sets are to sell GW's non-infantry models, or for 'regular' infantry (as opposed to bikes and monstrous like wraithguard/spawn) to be marginalised in the box sets. Of course, that's not the case with the battle company I've just noticed...

GW is still making money on these deals, gobs of it. GW long ago recoupsed the cost of creating these old plastic model sprues and except for $ 1-2 of plastic and Chinese labor these are effectively like printing money for GW. they even save on the packaging since everything is stuffed into a big generic box.

There has been an unannounced project to slightly scale back prices as evidenced by the new fantasy releases (5 Empire Pistoler Cav for $ 22!) and this is just 40k's turn.

It's the 'more is better' idea, methinks.
They sell splash releases (squadrons of three) for various codicies, and the battle forces, and see that they sell better than singles (why buy 1 War Walker when you can have 3 for a discount).

This is just the same thing, ramped up.

There has been some speculation in various quarters (TMP, for example) that this is just a way to get rid of excess stock before GW switches to prepainteds next year, but as I said, that's unconfirmed.

I'm just looking forward to their sales dropping after being temporarily boosted by this "sale" so that GW can start blaming any drop in their stock on the "Apocalypse bubble."

It makes sense in the global prospective.

     GW is following a long term plan. Apocalypse isn't new in its idea, I'd heard about this style of gaming some time ago, and watched a game with the armorcast wolfhounds and stompas back in 1997, but with thier current prices, they must see the writing on the wall with thier problems, and being a buisness, they will not officially agknowledge that the last five years have really hurt them.

They work on a standard buisness model, and with that, thier investors are really calling the shots.Its good for them in the short term, because it will make a little more cash in the short tearm, and maybe make it better then last year, because the holiday season is typicly the money maker. (Last years gimick was orks. This years is large scale orks.)

It makes sense when you are talking about thousands of dollers, not twenty or thirty. If I sell a couple of these boxes, they have the potental to gain me a few more buyers. ( The average beginner is going to buy this, make one or two, then pack it in, either sell it on Ebay, or give it to thier friends.) Either way, these kits are short run items, and clear out old stock for the next five years, where we will ultamatly see the new 40K, 5th edition probibly around the middle of next year or so.

Combine these kits with the new codex's and we can start to see GW pulling thier praverbial fat out of the fire. Even though they are careless, they arn't stupid. This is the natural progression of the game, regardless of the way things have panned out, money wise.

I'm not a big fan of a 28mm game of Epic, though, but that doesn't mean that some people might love it. To me, it looks like a novelty kitch game. " I saw these guys playing a big game, man that was cool!"

Of course, when people go get all this stuff, find that they can't paint, model, or have the same kind of pretty games that they saw, they might get pissed, but then again, if GW can get it together, this might be a way to get a few more people interested in thier crack.

 

I really hope that they do it right.

Apocalypse amounts to a major shift in GW's business and marketing strategies. The company hopes to
a) significantly escalate the scale of armies involved in games (and thus the size of sales to individual customers);
b) thereby recoup the revenues they "lose" by lowering prices;
c) (possibly) attract new customers.

The assumption is that the benefits of a) will outweigh the costs of b). Marketing 101.
It's a bold move. The danger is that the costs of Apocalypse will cannibalize the profits of regular 40K (because the company will earn less for each sale of standard 40K armies).

The company can contain this cannibalization effect by
1) manipulating Apocalypse's formation rules in ways that make it difficult to purchase "regular" 40K armies via discounted Apocalypse box sets;
2) limiting the availability of Apoc box sets via splash releases -- which might serve to bring new (or former) customers into the hobby (hence, objective c))

GW is committing to the strategic shift because it has to. A prolonged sales slump has rattled management and forced new initiatives. A sense of urgency has finally shaken complacency in Nottingham. The pace of design and development has acclerated (chaos, Apoc, Orks, all within less than 6 months, following a very dry preceding six months or so). And Apocalypse, in particular, signals a willingness to experiment with the company's business model.

I, for one, am heartened. I don't mean this post to sound snarky or condesceding or alienated. As a huge fan of the game and the hobby, I've been waiting for moves like this for awhile.

edited: typos

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 09/01/2007 12:11 AM
So, I have to ask - Why are they doing this? What benefit is there for them? This is a company that raises it's prices 10-30% every couple of years for no apparent reason (case in point - all non-core boxed sets across all ranges are going up in Australia this month, for no reason). Yet here they are offering Land Raiders at £25 each rather than £30 each.

Here's my take on this:

 

1) Apocalypse opens up a previously closed market for them (or, creates a new market, depending on how you want to view it), because it gives players who already have 2000 point armies a reason to expand them further, and basically allows them to double-dip for each player.

2) The boxed sets they are selling are, for the most part, not new models, so there is no cost for developing the designs and making the molds, which helps the bottom line.  (Heck, without gear-up costs, these might be more profitable for all we know.)

Or here is another way to look at it:

Normally with any rules release there is a set of new models released. GW obviously always hopes that Veterans who already own that army will consider buying the new models just because they like the look of them.

With Apocalypse, the actual # of new models being released is pretty small so they need to make some sort of incentive for players to go out and buy (rebuy) models and a bulk deal is one way of doing that.


And as several people have pointed out already they are only repackaging existing models so they didn't have to spend any development time and money creating these models so they can certainly cut a few $$$ and still rake it in.

*attaches tinfoil hat*

Apocalypse has multiple agendas; the formation boxes create more turnover (if people buy them) for little increase in costs. Secondly it attacks online retailers (who GW hate and loathe) as the discount they give on one box of multiple models will be less than the discount on many separate models. Thirdly when the Apocalypse fuss blows over in a year or so and when Apocalypse armies are no longer legal (in perhaps two or so years) the mass of models will kill the EBay second hand market (as is the case with LotR at the moment) if people think they will get nothing for their second hand figs then they will not attempt to sell them.

*removes tinfoil hat*

I think it's mostly a turnover thing, increased turnover will look good on the books in this post loss period and is much easier to do than break into new markets or come up with some new ideas, which is what GW need to do to turnaround their current downturn.

I just wish they'd offered an 'Armoured Attack Squadron' for Marines that had, for instance, 4 Predators in it. They'd have my money for that.

But so far, after going over all the bundles, the only ones that take my fancy are the Armoured Spearhead, the Necron Phalanx and maybe the Guard Recon Company.

BYE

Actually, I can see some real solid thinking behind this.  From a business standpoint, what are the two biggest practical obstacles to players buying more models beyond a certain number?

The Force Organizational Chart and Points Limits of the games they play.

Apocalypse removes both those obstacles.

 

 

What I'll never understand is why they think that an advertizing budget is necessary for every other business in existance except them.

Well, I would never, ever consider buying 6 or more Falcons for my Eldar army since I mostly play 1500 points games, but now that a every third model is nearly free they've given me enough reason to spend money I wouldn't otherwise spend at all on GW products.

Additionally, as far as I know these discount boxes will be available only for a limited time, meaning they want everyone to feel like they have to buy the huge sets of models because they are both cheap and soon no longer available. Even if you aren't sure you want an Apocalypse size army, you want to buy it now, just in case you'll need it.

Simply put GW want to sell us 5000pt armies. People buy 2k pts worth of stuff, plus some spare characters, normally one of each unit plus enough of the best stuff to fill up one detachment. Actually I think it is a good plan and worth cutting prices for. However:

People will join up to buy multipacks between them. as most gamers know other gamers play in store etc, it will be normal for them to cash up together for one big pack and still buy 'normal' sized armies.

Secondly, Apocalypse is based on poor standards, good to police massed bring and battles between store kids. But store kids arent in buying 5000pt armies unless daddy is very rich.

Posted By Orlanth on 09/01/2007 10:23 AM
Secondly, Apocalypse is based on poor standards, good to police massed bring and battles between store kids. But store kids arent in buying 5000pt armies unless daddy is very rich.

1.  I don't really think that Apoc. is aimed at "store kids," but at veterans. 

2.  Five store kids, each with 1,000 points, = 5,000 points = Big Fun. 

Hi
I am fairly new to posting on the forums but I'll throw my two cents in.

GW is of course a company whose main purpose is to make money, so they aren't going to release something that they feel they won't make their share on. (Though they have made that mistake in the past).

I have been involved in the Hobby for awhile and even worked at GW for a few years before moving back to BC. I had the chance to watch an Apocalypse game at the Head Office in Canada and it looked like a blast.

My opinion is that GW is looking to expand the options abvailable to their customers while also expanding their market, ie people will need to expand their armies from 1500 or 2000 up to the 3k or 4k mark, (I will)

Also it will give them the chance to sell larger items such as the Baneblade which is due out this Fall, and hopefully we will see the assorted Aircraft and maybe even the Titans get released in Plastic.

Is it a good idea? I think so, I know I already have two Baneblades on order...lol. But it will be interesting to see the path they take in the next few years.

Thanks

Corry

i like what their doing and i hope a lot of people purchase the big box sets. As long as they continue making cool stuff like the chapter masters, 40k basing kit and the ork mek with "boss pole" i'm fine. I myself would very much like to afford the big box sets, but ... well i can't. yet. i would hope this shows that a small decrease in price makes purchasing GW stuff a more viable option instead of looking to other brands to fulfill those roles. i won't , but one can hope. again i hope the quality continues for the really cool stuff.

To chime in with a couple of random thoughts. I think many of the things that folks are saying apply. New marketing strategies, taking a shot at online discounters and ebay, pushing plastics that are already paid for, HQ shaken at the rate of decline.

My thought is on the moving of old models. Basically, clearing out space. I think of it like this - I had a storage unit for all the crap that I couldn't fit into my apt when I moved. So I paid 100 dollars a month for space to put stuff that I never looked at. Stormboy's surplus goods... I smartened up eventually and sold away most of my junk and now I am saving 100 bucks a month. On a larger scale GW is clearing out some of its old surplus plastics. Clearing out their attic, if you will. If it saves a few bucks on storage fee's that will help their bottom line in addition to their new strategies and such.

Just my random thought...

IMHO that GW is doing the cut-rate boxed sets to compete with eBay. GW has burned a huge number of players in the last few years, and plenty of great new war games have caught on. This has created a steady stream of GW product on eBay, and while a well-painted popular army might sell well, a collection of half-assembled stuff, many ?classic? models, and unpopular armies often go with no bids until the seller gives up after his third try and dumps his 40k collection for next to nothing. That?s bad enough for GW when it comes to selling models to new players, but I think it hurts GW a lot more when it comes to the Apocalypse crowd: old-school 40k players who still regret not holding on to their second edition books. As plenty of people have pointed out already, people who are likely to play Apocalypse have piles of GW stuff already and aren?t likely to buy more at the current retail prices. These players might consider picking up new stuff for Apocalypse, but they also know how to get it online, maybe even pre-assembled, often for less than half the cost of buying new. So for GW to really cash in on Apocalypse, they had to just bite the bullet and slash prices on the boxed sets.

I own 6000+ points of Dark Angels and I am still going to spend another $200-300 on Apoc stuff. Why? Cause it gives me a reason to finally finish off my 5th Battle Company, buy 3 Vindicators (I've been holding off till they were released in plastic), the whirlwhind battery with Landspeeder, and maybe the 4 Landraider deal as well. And that's not including the craters, basing kit, and roads that I'm going to buy...

As for why GW is doing it, it opens a door for them that makes more money. Small skirmish games don't need as many figures as massive Apoc games. My guess is that they'll leave the skirmish games to their competitors but take over the market for large, fun, all day type games. PP simply can't compete on large games with 40k/Fantasy. So by offering lower priced bundles, they are in effect doing the same thing they do with BfM and BfSP, getting people in with a cheap starter and getting them addicted.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

GW is doing this for 2 reasons.

1 has alraedy been stated here... money and all that stuff. They will sell a lot and they know it.

2 - maybe because Apocalypse will be just plain fun?

A lot of folks like smaller games, this is true, but every modeler or player has at least once or twice though to themselves or aloud in a shrill, geeky voice how cool it would be to run a whole space marine company, or have a bunch of falcons deep striking or whatever. Now's your chance

I had originally planned to build a 2000 pt guard army. I did that, it was fun. I was going to stop there because I like the way the army plays and I have exactly the models I need for 2000 pts and can take out things here and there for smaller games. I really wasn't interested in adding to it till now. I always wanted a tank heavy army and took the minimum amt of squads so I can load up on tanks. I didn't want an official armored company. But now seeing this imperial guard company I'm thinking .. "wow, that'd be really cool to have" .. I won't buy it, but I can easily see buying up 4 boxes of troops to get to that level. I'd start buying now if I could see the datafax for it so I'd know exactly what units I'd need to add...

Even if profits are short term, I really think Apocalypse is just what the Dr ordered for GW.. and for Vet players who always wanted to play the kind of games it'll allow

Posted By Necros on 09/01/2007 12:10 PM
GW is doing this for 2 reasons.

1 has alraedy been stated here... money and all that stuff. They will sell a lot and they know it.

2 - maybe because Apocalypse will be just plain fun?

 

 I had the opportunity to place several games of  40k " Floor Hammer" when i was back in Toronto. Not the same rules as Apoclypse obviously but great house rules.

 It gave us an opportunity to use all the Big Guns, Titans, Flyers, insane amounts of troops. We played no point limit, but ya had to be true to the FoC. But if you filled it then you could have another one started. The game took all day but in the end we had a blast.

  Apocalypse looks to be somewhat similar but maybe streamlined with some clarifications that need to be made.

  GW will always be looking to make a buck. But hopefully they keep their customers in mind as they develop new toys.

 

    Corry

 

Apocalypse is an experiment, a one-shot attempt to see how will perform the alternate business model for GW - rebate on bulk. They stopped it years ago and it did not help much.

Believe me, they'll check more closely than ever how many army deal they sell, as well of the number of Apocalypse rulebooks purchased. Now, if it works, it will not only bring fresh money in the coffins but also tell a strong message to the management: stop the elitist, pricey gaming and produce plenty. Since GW moved to plastics, they are ready to try different things now.

Moreover, only GW can bring something like Apocalypse; it helps them mark some difference with an ever-growing competition. And cutting the price of products has always been a good way to ruin it.

Posted By stecal on 09/01/2007 4:52 AM
... and except for $ 1-2 of plastic and Chinese labor ...

The only parts in these boxes made in China are the bases.

My (conspiracy) theory?

Apocalypse is to boost 4th quarter earnings and turnover, thus improving the stock price and the amount Kirby et al. will get when they sell the company shortly after.

Same reason any company does discounts on bulk purchases (buy two get one free etc), to increase profit. Its better to sell three vindicators for £20 each than one for £30, assuming the cost of producing each Vindicator is less than £15. As Gee Dubya sells everything at a 70% margin, the cost price is probably nearer £6.

GW has finally figured out sales are not invariant with price. Not many people would buy three Vindi's for £90, but with the significant discount, its more tempting.

Temporary discounts like this also help clear space in warehouses and storerooms, which also costs money.