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At the request of my tau friend (who's lost three games in a row because of my spears) I'm wondering what peoples opinions about spears are.

I tend to run them with a farseer with fortune. That way when they turbo boost they get a re-rollable 3+ inv. On two occasions he's literally shot his whole army into them and only inflicted one wound.

Last night for example he hit with all his pathfinder markerlights and shot over 90 shots into my spears about all of them hitting on a 2+. He inflicted 39 wounds total. Ultimately I only lost one spear.

Since he only plays tau he see's them as nigh invulnerable. I know that if he were to charge with power weapons he didn't have he could route them.

I think spears are good, thats why I take them. I don't think they do any more damage than a banshee squad might. But whats your opinons? Are they OP, or just competitive. How would you stop them?

Eldar bikes + fortune is quite OP.

Your experience is pretty common.

Tell him to get the kroot ready for a whuppin, and shoot something else.

It isn't the spears that's the problem really, it's the combo that hurts. I've done the same thing, it's really hard to do any wounds with them.

Sounds pretty OP to me, especially against Tau. But it's also just the sort of thing Tau have to deal with. It _is_ a 350 some point unit.

Honestly, that's just not the answer altho I don't know what he's supposed to do.

Did you win the game? I'm going to assume yes if he wasted all that shooting.

He could counter-charge with something. They can't Hit&Run with the Farseer and they can't re-roll without.

He could counter-charge with something. They can't Hit&Run with the Farseer and they can't re-roll without.

Won't work. Why would the Farseer need to join them?

Yeah I won. He ignored the fire dragons and the harlies. Plus he got everything he could as close as possible to maximize shots. So close combat just shut him down.

Farseers don't have to join a squad to cast powers on them. So when he did charge with stealthsuits ( he was getting desperate) I just hopped out.

In a vacume Spears and fortune don't seem so bad. But When you run them like I do, right beside the falcons, I guess it's just too much to shoot at that really can't be hurt.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:

He could counter-charge with something. They can't Hit&Run with the Farseer and they can't re-roll without.

Won't work. Why would the Farseer need to join them?

Yah, I wouldnt join with the Farseer. You can use that power on any friendly unit within 6 inches. I take that to mean that ify ou are within 6 inches of a model in that squad you can cast it. I dont think the farseer can be picked out even if he doesnt join the squad, unless he is the closest model to the firer.

Yeah I run the Farseer, a warlock bodyguard on bikes, and the shining spears.

Still undecided on the autarch or maugen ra. Either way it's OP.

Quick glossary question:


What does 'OP' stand for? Overpowered?

Yep.

Kinda off topic but Stelek, how do you like you Warlock bike squad?

39 wounds on a rerollable 3+ save results in an average of:

39 * 1/3 * 1/3 -> 4.33 dead.

Maybe your dice are loaded but your opponent is an idiot for whining about your dice luck. By the odds he should have depopulated your squad. A rerollable 3+ save is nice but it's not nice enough to make 35pt guys overpowered.

All a good player has to do to deal with the spears is:
1) Sacrifice a squad of fire warriors to them (either charge them or use them to block charges -- easy to do with proper movement). Squad of fire warriors is much cheaper than a squad of shining spears.
2) Sacrifice kroot to them, or countercharge them.
3) Sacrifice a single squad that they're guarenteed to kill in one turn, and then murder them with Ap2 guns the next round.

Spears are far from overpowered.

gdurant wrote:Kinda off topic but Stelek, how do you like you Warlock bike squad?

Love it.

Especially in combination with my Shining Spears.

It's quite the bearded lady of cheese, I must say.

Stelek wrote:

gdurant wrote:Kinda off topic but Stelek, how do you like you Warlock bike squad?

Love it.

Especially in combination with my Shining Spears.

It's quite the bearded lady of cheese, I must say.

My envy is palpable.

I figured that if the Farseer is seperate from the squad it's easier to take it out.

The whole unit is a double edged sword. If the farseer is joined to them, then they lose hit and run. Thus a sacrifical unit of firewarriors (or better yet kroot) charging into them ties them up for a while. If the farseer is not joined to them, then he's a target. Tau have a lot of mobile firepower, just move some battle suits, stealth squads, or anything in a devil fish around so that the farseer is the closest model to the unit and open up on the one model that's giveing the squad re-rolls. Best yet, if he isn't in the squad, the farseer doesn't get the rerolls himself. If you are having trouble getting around the squad or the farseer is directly in the middle, lob a submunition round into them. The farseer gets one save to avoid being insta killed.

Stelek wrote:

gdurant wrote:Kinda off topic but Stelek, how do you like you Warlock bike squad?

Love it.

Especially in combination with my Shining Spears.

It's quite the bearded lady of cheese, I must say.

I guess I should of asked how do you use them. What powers do they use, or is it just a big unit of spear locks. Or do you just run them in to CC?

Phoenix wrote:The whole unit is a double edged sword. If the farseer is joined to them, then they lose hit and run. Thus a sacrifical unit of firewarriors (or better yet kroot) charging into them ties them up for a while. If the farseer is not joined to them, then he's a target. Tau have a lot of mobile firepower, just move some battle suits, stealth squads, or anything in a devil fish around so that the farseer is the closest model to the unit and open up on the one model that's giveing the squad re-rolls. Best yet, if he isn't in the squad, the farseer doesn't get the rerolls himself. If you are having trouble getting around the squad or the farseer is directly in the middle, lob a submunition round into them. The farseer gets one save to avoid being insta killed.

I use egg shaped bases I got from Gale Force Nine. I just make an egg formation around the farseer and he seems to be peach keen.

gdurant wrote:

Phoenix wrote:The whole unit is a double edged sword. If the farseer is joined to them, then they lose hit and run. Thus a sacrifical unit of firewarriors (or better yet kroot) charging into them ties them up for a while. If the farseer is not joined to them, then he's a target. Tau have a lot of mobile firepower, just move some battle suits, stealth squads, or anything in a devil fish around so that the farseer is the closest model to the unit and open up on the one model that's giveing the squad re-rolls. Best yet, if he isn't in the squad, the farseer doesn't get the rerolls himself. If you are having trouble getting around the squad or the farseer is directly in the middle, lob a submunition round into them. The farseer gets one save to avoid being insta killed.

I use egg shaped bases I got from Gale Force Nine. I just make an egg formation around the farseer and he seems to be peach keen.

This is why I attach my Farseer to my Warlock squad so he's essentially invulnerable.

gdurant wrote:

Stelek wrote:

gdurant wrote:Kinda off topic but Stelek, how do you like you Warlock bike squad?

Love it.

Especially in combination with my Shining Spears.

It's quite the bearded lady of cheese, I must say.

I guess I should of asked how do you use them. What powers do they use, or is it just a big unit of spear locks. Or do you just run them in to CC?

They use enhance and embolden. 10 Warlocks on Bikes, no spears...they aren't necessary since it's not a Jump unit.

They, and the SP escort, run at your army and assault you on turn 2...or sit back and wait until I've picked your army apart with gunfire, then blow you away with CC attacks.

Why is he shooting the spears? Shoot everything but the spears. Then let the spears kill something, and be left hanging.

It won't work every time, but it should work enough. Just don't keep any juicy targets close enough to each other to get double assaulted.

Stelek wrote:

They use enhance and embolden. 10 Warlocks on Bikes, no spears...they aren't necessary since it's not a Jump unit.

They, and the SP escort, run at your army and assault you on turn 2...or sit back and wait until I've picked your army apart with gunfire, then blow you away with CC attacks.

They wound on 2's sure, but at 45 points a model its seem kinda pricey. If they where power weapons or if the locks had more attacks or if you had destructor on every lock I could see the damage potential. As is they just look really hard to kill.
Am I missing something?

Well I do run Shining Spears with them so when I assault there are multiple power weapon hits.

However that said the unit is entirely capable of taking on a core fire base by itself and winning.

30 attacks that hit on 3+ at I5 and wound on 2+ is worth 45 points on a jetbike that's got T4, re-rollable 3+/4+ saves, S9 against vehicles and 2 twin-linked BS4 AP5 S4 shots each.

Toss in a Shining Spears unit, Autarch, and a Farseer; and there's alot of nasty stuff coming your way.

Besides throwing alot of bodies at it, I don't know how to kill it. Shooting isn't very effective sadly.

Eldar bikes and fortune...

I will not call them OP. Only because to me OP means that they cannot be beaten in a fair game. You've got a lot to think about when you start deploying against an eldar army and the bike farseer and/or the bike autarch get dropped. You need to look at what else you'll be able to score against. What you can give up to them, and what (if anything) you could kill them with.

I will say that if I played Tau, i would be pretty unhappy with my options for dealing with them. Tau leadership is sketchy at best. So having large units of cheap wounds won't help. They'll lose, break and run. Shooting is rarely the answer. Not to say it doesn't pay off occasionally, but a concentration of fire to try and wipe out the whole unit is just going to end up revealing vulnerable points in your army, and wasting you an entire shooting phase probably.

The answer that most tau players have found is to just give up on 'fighting them' but take away any good targets for them as well. Climb aboard your devilfish, stay in the woods with your kroot, move your piranhas away from them, and shoot at something else. Every eldar army has at least 2 very killable units. Be it pathfinders, or bikes that don't have fortune. Keep shaking those falcons and keep moving.

i suppose it wouldn't be very Tau-like for them to tarpit any units. That would be a very callous thing to do.

Final answer... a good unit against many armies. A little less good against people with high leadership high model count armies (IG, Orks) but devastating against small, mobile, low leadership armies. Maybe you write up a list for him that doesn't include them if it is starting to frustrate him. Or you can help him overcome his aversion to them by letting him play your list while you play his. Thats a great trick for showing a friend that an 'uber unit' that is completely god mode, is never nearly as much of a powerhouse as it seems from he other side of the table.

I think the Tau motto of "For the Greater Good!" allows you to sacrifice whomever you damn well pleaes.


The thing with a sacrifice unit is this: You don't have to charge them. Just put them in a position where they either charge your suicide squad or they back off, with no other options.

Tau's poor leadership is actually a bonus here, because if they flee in the first round of combat and get wiped out the spears are left in the open and get punked.

Longshot wrote:I think the Tau motto of "For the Greater Good!" allows you to sacrifice whomever you damn well pleaes.


The thing with a sacrifice unit is this: You don't have to charge them. Just put them in a position where they either charge your suicide squad or they back off, with no other options.

Tau's poor leadership is actually a bonus here, because if they flee in the first round of combat and get wiped out the spears are left in the open and get punked.

Assuming they don't have fortune on them before they charge. then you encounter the whole shooting problem again.

Shep wrote:ldar bikes and fortune...

I will not call them OP. Only because to me OP means that they cannot be beaten in a fair game. You've got a lot to think about when you start deploying against an eldar army and the bike farseer and/or the bike autarch get dropped. You need to look at what else you'll be able to score against. What you can give up to them, and what (if anything) you could kill them with.

I will say that if I played Tau, i would be pretty unhappy with my options for dealing with them. Tau leadership is sketchy at best. So having large units of cheap wounds won't help. They'll lose, break and run. Shooting is rarely the answer. Not to say it doesn't pay off occasionally, but a concentration of fire to try and wipe out the whole unit is just going to end up revealing vulnerable points in your army, and wasting you an entire shooting phase probably.

The answer that most tau players have found is to just give up on 'fighting them' but take away any good targets for them as well. Climb aboard your devilfish, stay in the woods with your kroot, move your piranhas away from them, and shoot at something else. Every eldar army has at least 2 very killable units. Be it pathfinders, or bikes that don't have fortune. Keep shaking those falcons and keep moving.

i suppose it wouldn't be very Tau-like for them to tarpit any units. That would be a very callous thing to do.

Final answer... a good unit against many armies. A little less good against people with high leadership high model count armies (IG, Orks) but devastating against small, mobile, low leadership armies. Maybe you write up a list for him that doesn't include them if it is starting to frustrate him. Or you can help him overcome his aversion to them by letting him play your list while you play his. Thats a great trick for showing a friend that an 'uber unit' that is completely god mode, is never nearly as much of a powerhouse as it seems from he other side of the table.

In our friendly games I don't take them anymore. We just both agree there isn't much tau can do about them. It's like monoliths against Dark Eldar, you can't hurt em so do what you can.

Longshot wrote:
The thing with a sacrifice unit is this: You don't have to charge them. Just put them in a position where they either charge your suicide squad or they back off, with no other options.

A good Eldar player ALWAYS has other options. At the very least they can turbo boost to another equally threatening position, reclaiming their re-rollable invulnerable save and circumventing your trap. They will probably scoop up your sacrificial unit with a falcon/pathfinders/bikes/warp spiders while they are at it. If you've got a lot of 'sacrificial units' handy then you can try it again at this new spot. But i don't tend to see a lot of tau lists stuffed full of suicide squads. YMMV

Dark Eldar can't handle Monoliths?

Funny. I've found putting 20 DL/Blaster shots into a Monolith is a pretty reliable way of putting them down.

Stelek wrote:Dark Eldar can't handle Monoliths?

Funny. I've found putting 20 DL/Blaster shots into a Monolith is a pretty reliable way of putting them down.

a dark lance has a 2% chance of popping an av 14 vehicle.

Funny.

Can I see your math please?

I can only assume you mean Lance-invulnerable vehicles...but since I've got lots of them and I do kill Monoliths with them without much difficulty...I do wish to be enlightened.

A dark lance has just as much chance to nail a monolith as any other S8 weapon, what's your point gdurant?

Dark Eldar can sure take alot of 'em too.

Stelek, math is not a hard subject.

The chance of a darklance getting a glancing 6 is 2/3 * 1/6 *1/6, which works out to 2/108 or 1/54. If you care about relevant results, 4,5,6 then you have 2/3 * 1/6 * 1/2 or still 1/18.

Honestly, the fact that you have killed a monolith with dark lances is not impressive, but any pretense that it is easy, even with 20 lances is relatively idiotic. There is a reason the monolith is used as an example of the failure of the vehicle rules, because it is prohibitively hard to kill for many weapons, and yet is incredibly easy to destroy with others because of the imbalance of said rules.

Its nice to see you put your professional opinion in all the time, but the math disagrees, and generalship definitely does not beat the laws of probability, despite your insistence that you pull statistically improbably events commonly.