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Deceiver
10 Warriors
10 Warriors
8 Immortals
8 Immortals
8 Immortals
3 Destroyers
3 Destroyers
3 Destroyers
1 Heavy Destroyer
1 Heavy Destroyer
1 Heavy Destroyer

I've been experimenting with various flavors of the competitive shooty Necrons for a while now, and this is the version that seems to be the best compromise between sheer shooting power, scoring units and the ability to split fire. Decent phase out, handles Escalation alright, Deceiver works his mojo. I think that this is the final form of my flavor of crons.

I think you'd be better off with 2 x 4 destroyers, one fewer heavy destroyer, and a group of scarabs in the last fast attack slot. Scarabs are too good not to have a squad I think.

Otherwise looks just about exactly what I'd envision at those points (except I'd use a cheap Lord with an orb and a bigger squad of scarabs, idea being to just weather the assault and sacrifice the unit that gets hit by orbing power weapon wounds).

I have never seen a deceiver as worth it, especially since you could have a monolith for less points. I play in a fair amount of tournies, and heavy destroyers and C'tan usually spell out real problems for necrons against marines.

I recommend a lord for your HQ, especially with a solid warrior base, the res orb is too good not to take.

Take a lord with res orb, toss ALL the destroyers.

Grab 2 monoliths, and 20 scarab swarms.

Much more effective army in my honest opinion.

the 2k list i've had the most success with:

lord w/ veil and orb
2x 10 warriors
3x 8 immortals
3x 8 scarabs
2x monolith


but i think destroyer lists can work too, just a bit fragile. i like the deceiver personally, but wouldn't use him at 2k or less. at 2.5k i think he's a better buy than a third monolith, if only just.

I like the list. Some people really like scarabs and they try to get everyone else to play scarabs. Others like Destroyers. I like the Destroyers, but that's probably because my area has lots of Godzilla, scatter laser Eldar and assault cannon marines. All things that chew right through scarabs without a second thought.

If it's working for you, stick with it. I can see how it can work well. Good list.

From the battle reports and tournie records, the list posted by the OP is much more successful than I think anyone else has realized....

It isn't very effective against 90 marine armies, nor 200 guard armies, nor godzilla lists.

Putting in a list like the one corinth and I posted, can actually do real damage against all of those armies.

lascannon the heavy destroyers, all other fire at the destroyers...and eventually, they all die.

Then what? The immortals are dangerous, but you can ignore them for the 2 turns it takes to crush all those yummy free points. Some armies, won't take 2 turns.

Deceiver is no good under 2k, he costs too much and he's too damn slow. His ability isn't worth 300 points.

Longshot:

I've tried the hybrid list a couple of times since you first suggested it. I've found that that I prefer more split fire to the Scarabs ability to tie units up and devour tac infantry. I'm not knocking Scarabs by any means, just think this army handles counterattack with Deceiver, and tries to win the shooting war with t5 Necrons shooting blaster and cannons. The extra Destroyer unit lends a certain survivability to the Flying Circus (WBB incase of enemy fire saturation), and helps fix the morale test problem. The extra Heavy D goes miles towards making the Heavy Destroyers stick around longer. Its much harder to take out 3 seperate Heavy D's than 2 seperate Heavy D's in one shooting phase. Same principle as the Destroyers actually.

Your notion of the Orb Lord + scarabs I'm not convinced by. I'd definitely put a Veil on him, in my book the Necron HQ slot has to stop enemy assault. sacrficing the unit that gets hit by orbing power weapon wounds doesn't fix the LOS problem. Only Deceiver (by misdirecting prior to Necron shooting), Monolith or Veil get that done. With just a Veil lord and big clouds of Scarabs this list would have a lot of trouble with jump packers with fists.

AngrBodr:

Heavy D are a bit of an acquired taste. They fail utterly vs. real destroyers as tank killers or infantry hunters, but where they come into their own is as the Necron landspeeder equivalent. They take table quarters, etc. They are also useful for popping enemies with t < 5 and 2+ saves.
Against Nidzilla they are priceless, as they provide an incentive for the Zillas to stick to terrain or just back the bleep up. Spread out at 36" Nidzilla has literally no way to handle them, beyond extraordinary fortune on their fire.
Against Mech Eldar they can stand in the way of Harlequin charge routes, snipe on first turn in conjunction with Grand Illusion at Skimmers not in quite enough cover. (redeploy + 12" move will often get you a shot) get behind falcons to prevent the charge, zip up and charge hard shooting units, holding them in battle.
Against Tau they hunt suits, Crisis Suits and Broadsides make perfect targets for these guys.

As for the Deceiver...Most enemy armies fall into one of the following camps. All shooty, all assaulty, shooty with one assaulty element
Deceiver against an all assaulty army would have to be unbelievably unlucky not to make his points back, over and over. Grand Illusion gets you extra shooting phases, and the Deceiver will make mincemeat of the other player's most deadly assault unit, misdirecting so as not to prevent the gun line from firing.
Deceiver against an all shooty army will steal the majority of one or two of their shooting phase as he walks towards them. If he makes it its game, and if he doesn't at least he stole that shooting phase. In all honesty this list shoots so hard you aren't going to be too worried against any enemy shooty army anyway. Necron durability wins
Deceiver against a shooty army with one assault element will eat that assault element and then go on to steal a shooting phase later on. This is basically the same game as the previous, but the points they put into their assault element get eaten up by Big D without doing anything.

In addition to all of the above the ability to force tests that are fearless always has the potential of suddenly turning the game. If you've never seen the Deceiver as worth it, I urge you to give him a stab yourself, or make a proxy force and play against him. His immunity to assault, fear beam, tough 8...Seriously, he's the man.

Stelek:

I disagree. I've found this one to be better in tourneys. The army you are advocating is a VP denial force, discarding half of the army's firepower to get Scarabs, Monoliths and an Orb to make the list more durable. That is also a strong list, but in tourneys its too vulnerable to slowballing, lucky monolith popping and the Liths tend to hurt soft scores. Of particular concern is the lack of Necrons. You have 2 monoliths, but only 5 ten man strong squads. If the enemy focuses fire and pops your units one at a time you end up with a big Immortal unit and a big warrior unit, and then you have scoring unit troubles. Another issue is the scoring unit problem. If a Lith goes down early you are playing defense all game long. To summarize, the list you've described, while almost as strong, in my experience as the list I play, is unsuitable for tournament play due to its tendency towards long games, its inability to VS its opponents, and its dependency on vehicles which are 235 points and have the equivalent of one wound.

Corinth:

You've got basically the same suggestions as Stelek, although you have a Veil and larger numbers of scarabs. Rather than making the same response I figure you can read what I've written to him. To wit: I believe that the list the two of you have proposed is strong, but I've found it less suitable for tournaments, and less strong overall.

Darth:

Thanks man. I've also had bad experiences with Mech Eldar/Nidzilla and Scarabs.

Saldiven:

Thanks also. Its always nice to see that people read battle reports.

Stelek:

Your message confuses me. This list loves a matchup against marines. Bolters, functionally, don't do anything to this list. The marines are relying on their las and their plas, without a way to bring those weapons to their enemies. I'm far more worried about marines that pack assault cannons than those that pack 90 bodies. With Deceiver stopping their rush element and giving me redeployment they've practically lost before turn 1. Also, 200 guardsmen? Guard armies thrive on small numbers of guardsmen plasma dropping, ordnance and long range lascannon sniping. Extra guard bodies are so without value against a Necron list. Their armor can't hack it, and s3 guns vs. t5 3+ save wbb doesn't get it done.

Maybe I'm just used to local lists though. Please, remedy my ignorance. Show me a 90 marine 2k list and a 200 guard 2k list and each viewer can assess who the winner would be if they played this Necron list.

My confusion at this pales in comparison to the notion that the armies you've posted would do better against these threats. You've removed Destroyers, Heavy D's and the Deceiver for Scarabs (smoked by ordnance, rapid fire plasma, powerfists, assault cannons, heck inferno cannons), Monoliths (give those lascannons something to aim at.) and an Orb Lord (making his points back how? The armies you are describing don't deny WBB to t5 units anyway).

Your claim that they would aid against Nidzilla is themost confusing of all. What "real damage" can the liths and scarabs you've included do to TMCs? Fire an ordnance blast and put one wound on them (unless they have 2+ save)? Bring up some scarabs and get mowed down by devourers? You've removed the parts of the list that Nidzilla has trouble with, the Destroyers, Heavy D's and C'tan, and added in things Nidzilla laughs at.

40kenthusiast-

In the Chicagoland area we went hard into Nidzilla. It got to be that if you weren't Nidzilla, you had better be the complete anti-Nidzilla to win that 3rd RTT game. I developed a simple Necron list I hoped would stand up to the big bugs and it did.

Deceiver
10 warriors
10 warriors
4 destroyers
4 destroyers
4 destroyers
3 heavy destroyers
3 heavy destroyers
3 heavy destroyers

At 1850 I had great success with this army against Nidzilla. The Deveiver was the key. If he ever managed to get into combat, he would hop from TMC to TMC assaulting away untouched. He would leave combat with Stealers and plow into another TMC.

I had severe trouble against the last edition Chaos lists with uber 2+ bike save Lords and Drop Pod marines with lots of Terminators/assault cannons.

I echo your sentiments on the Deceivers abilities. There is more than one way to skin a cat and there is more than one way to win with Necrons.

Group your (40Kenthusiast) destroyers close enough together to give each other WBB roles. Even the single Heavy destroyers so they can bring each other back.

Darth:
Ah, the Flying Circus, as its called around here. I've gone with Immortals over the Circus, but I can't condemn the other choice, especially if you've got assurances of Nidzilla.

Man, look at that. Not a single thing in there Nidzilla is happy to see. Can't handle Destroyers or Heavy D's, and Deceiver outzillas them. Even if by some miracle they got the warriors it isn't phase out, and they are stuck. Hilarious. Its basically Sniperfexes, flying devil tyrants and walking sniper tyrants versus your whole list. Ice cold man.

Lemartes: Gotta love the cloud formation. Close enough for WBB, not close enough to get caught in ordnance.

40kenthusiast wrote:
Stelek:

Your message confuses me. This list loves a matchup against marines. Bolters, functionally, don't do anything to this list. The marines are relying on their las and their plas, without a way to bring those weapons to their enemies. I'm far more worried about marines that pack assault cannons than those that pack 90 bodies. With Deceiver stopping their rush element and giving me redeployment they've practically lost before turn 1. Also, 200 guardsmen? Guard armies thrive on small numbers of guardsmen plasma dropping, ordnance and long range lascannon sniping. Extra guard bodies are so without value against a Necron list. Their armor can't hack it, and s3 guns vs. t5 3+ save wbb doesn't get it done.

Maybe I'm just used to local lists though. Please, remedy my ignorance. Show me a 90 marine 2k list and a 200 guard 2k list and each viewer can assess who the winner would be if they played this Necron list.

My confusion at this pales in comparison to the notion that the armies you've posted would do better against these threats. You've removed Destroyers, Heavy D's and the Deceiver for Scarabs (smoked by ordnance, rapid fire plasma, powerfists, assault cannons, heck inferno cannons), Monoliths (give those lascannons something to aim at.) and an Orb Lord (making his points back how? The armies you are describing don't deny WBB to t5 units anyway).

Your claim that they would aid against Nidzilla is themost confusing of all. What "real damage" can the liths and scarabs you've included do to TMCs? Fire an ordnance blast and put one wound on them (unless they have 2+ save)? Bring up some scarabs and get mowed down by devourers? You've removed the parts of the list that Nidzilla has trouble with, the Destroyers, Heavy D's and C'tan, and added in things Nidzilla laughs at.

I dunno, guess I'll show you the lists. I have requests for other lists, but I'll do yours first given you're being polite about it.

To answer your question, in 2000 points TMCs can only go so far--you really need other things. You don't move your scarabs into range of the Devs, you hide them and keep the Genestealers away from your gun line. Let me be clear, I think both lists have potential but as a Tyranid player, I worry about Immortals more than destroyers. I can kill those heavy destroyers, and then it's all about armor saves. You have *less* shooting available as the game goes on, because you cannot just ignore the TMC shooting once they get into your destroyers--where you virtually can do so with the Immortals when you have Monoliths hiding and recycling them constantly. Deceiver can jump around, but I've yet to see him walk through 8 TMC and the genestealer guard I run. Maybe you have success, but given he's going to be alone in my army--I do like to think I can handle *one* gimmicky unit. I like to put a genestealer unit on him, and swarm around that with gaunts.

If there's no place to go, he can't exactly flee from combat. I call it the prison cell. Will the gaunts get shot away? Sure. Is that 1 more turn of movement for me, and less fire into my TMCs? Yes.

I'll gladly sacrifice 30 gaunts to take away a turn of shooting from 2 or 3 of your shooty units. That's all you need to get in range, and you really can't get out of range once you are in it.

So, time to make some lists. 2000 points, you say.

So, the marine list that will put enough shots out to disable all of your destroyers in approximately 2 turns.

Please, may the mavens of math in a void not comment.

Yes, you'll have some alive--and I'll lose quite a few marines pummeling you.

Problem is, you only have 12 destroyers.

Then it's a slugfest, your 3 units of Immortals vs my 12 units.

Nurgle gives this list problems, but only when there's 42 marines, 6 oblits, and 2 DP on the board.

You have none of that. Just T5 guys with conditional FNP.

I setup in a grid or box pattern, and let you dance around me. You have FNP only to save you, no Monoliths to recycle Immortals every single turn.

Sorry, it's 80 men at 2000. 105 or so at 2500.

Granted the Tank Hunters is wasted on you, but this is a all infantry list (except the Jump Packs) where you have SEVEN units held in reserve in crappy escalation missions (or just ones with weirdo reserve rules). I only have 2, and all they do is take objectives...but they will gladly fly out towards your Immortals and kill some in CC just because they can move faster than your army can. The parts of the army that will make it past turn 2, anyway.

================

2500 Pts - Space Marines Roster - Marines

1 Master @ 76 Pts
Bolter

6 Devastator Squad @ 186 Pts
Bolter (x2); Heavy Bolter (x4); Tank Hunters
1 Sergeant @ [18] Pts
Bolter; Tank Hunters

6 Devastator Squad @ 186 Pts
Bolter (x2); Heavy Bolter (x4); Tank Hunters
1 Sergeant @ [18] Pts
Bolter; Tank Hunters

6 Devastator Squad @ 186 Pts
Bolter (x2); Heavy Bolter (x4); Tank Hunters
1 Sergeant @ [18] Pts
Bolter; Tank Hunters

4 Tactical Squad @ 90 Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x1)
1 Sergeant @ [15] Pts
Bolter

4 Tactical Squad @ 90 Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x1)
1 Sergeant @ [15] Pts
Bolter

4 Tactical Squad @ 90 Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x1)
1 Sergeant @ [15] Pts
Bolter

4 Tactical Squad @ 90 Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x1)
1 Sergeant @ [15] Pts
Bolter

4 Tactical Squad @ 90 Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x1)
1 Sergeant @ [15] Pts
Bolter

5 Assault Squad @ 178 Pts
Jump Packs; Frag Grenades; Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol (x4); Close Combat Weapon (x4); Flamer (x1)
1 Sergeant @ [52] Pts
Jump Packs; Bolt Pistol (x1); Power Fist (x1); Terminator Honors

5 Assault Squad @ 178 Pts
Jump Packs; Frag Grenades; Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol (x4); Close Combat Weapon (x4); Flamer (x1)
1 Sergeant @ [52] Pts
Jump Packs; Bolt Pistol (x1); Power Fist (x1); Terminator Honors

6 Devastator Squad @ 186 Pts
Bolter (x2); Heavy Bolter (x4); Tank Hunters
1 Sergeant @ [18] Pts
Bolter; Tank Hunters

6 Devastator Squad @ 186 Pts
Bolter (x2); Heavy Bolter (x4); Tank Hunters
1 Sergeant @ [18] Pts
Bolter; Tank Hunters

6 Devastator Squad @ 186 Pts
Bolter (x2); Heavy Bolter (x4); Tank Hunters
1 Sergeant @ [18] Pts
Bolter; Tank Hunters

Total Roster Cost: 1998

I dont think that marine list you posted is that clear of a trump against the Necron list Stelek.

You might outnumber his Destroyers, but if he engages you at distance, he'd pick you apart over 6 turns for the win.

He has so much mobility over you it isnt even funny. The list you posted sucks against any army with firepower AND the ability to move and shoot. Destroyers can fight you at extreme range using terrain to block line of sight against any unit he isnt engaging. I can see beating that list with his quite easily.

On the other hand, if you fight in a desert at 24" you could win. Hopefully, the necron wouldnt be that stupid.

And the IG. I personally play a list with Hellhounds and Leman Russ Demolishers, which granted won't last a hill of beans against your list; however I do have a ton of Plasma shots. I'd say it would be a push, with you having no scoring units, and most of my drop army dead/immobilized.

That said, the IG list I would run is this one. Here's the gist of it.

It's all infantry. This one is 200 models.

Now let's see what does.

The HQ can drop, but usually it will just hide and do nothing but fire 1 weapon. Not that it will do anything, but I just stick 1 gunner and 1 guardsmen out to get shot at and hide the rest of the unit. Means the HQ will survive the game, which in tourneys means alot. Usually I give it a mortar so it at least does something.

Then there are the hardened vets, which can infiltrate or drop. These are armed with 2 Plasma Guns and a Missile Launcher, so if I do get stuck on my side of the board I can still do something with the unit.

Then there are the HQ units for each platoon, these have 2 meltaguns and a missile launcher; and can drop if needed. Again, no real problem if I can't drop these, they can still shoot the missiles. They have meltas because they are sharpshooters, and those + plasmaguns don't mix; where the hardened vets can't be sharpshooters...they already are! lol

And that takes me from the flex units to the shooty units.

16 infantry squads, all sharpshooters, all with missile launchers.

So that's....20 sharpshooter missile launchers, 8 meltaguns, all at BS 3. Plus 6 PG and 3 missile launchers at BS4.

It's got a weakness in Terminators, but since Terminators are getting reduced from the uber current Smurf list to the gimps they were back in 2nd edition...well, nothing to do but suck it up until they are nerfed completely.

Anyway, if you think you won't lose most if not all of your destroyers that I can see on my first shooting turn, and then I'll start pummeling your Immortals...well, can you tell me why?

I have sooo many units you can't shoot me away before I reduce your units you kill to 3, then 2, then game.

So, what do you think?

===========================

2000 Pts - Imperial Guard Roster - IG Missile Launcher Army


0 Command Platoon @ 60 Pts
0 Command Squad @ [60] Pts
Drop Troops; Sharpshooters
1 Junior Officer @ [40] Pts
Drop Troops; Sharpshooters; Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen @ [10] Pts
Drop Troops; Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x3); Mortar

4 Hardened Veterans @ 80 Pts
Drop Troops; Lasgun (x1); Plasmagun (x2); Missile Launcher
1 Veteran Sergeant @ [13] Pts
Lasgun

4 Hardened Veterans @ 80 Pts
Drop Troops; Lasgun (x1); Plasmagun (x2); Missile Launcher
1 Veteran Sergeant @ [13] Pts
Lasgun

4 Hardened Veterans @ 80 Pts
Drop Troops; Lasgun (x1); Plasmagun (x2); Missile Launcher
1 Veteran Sergeant @ [13] Pts
Lasgun

0 Infantry Platoon @ 425 Pts
0 Command Squad @ [85] Pts
Drop Troops; Sharpshooters
1 Junior Officer @ [40] Pts
Drop Troops; Sharpshooters; Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen @ [35] Pts
Drop Troops; Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x1); Meltagun (x2); Missile Launcher
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x8); Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Sharpshooters; Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x8); Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Sharpshooters; Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x8); Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Sharpshooters; Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x8); Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Sharpshooters; Laspistol & CCW

0 Infantry Platoon @ 425 Pts
0 Command Squad @ [85] Pts
Drop Troops; Sharpshooters
1 Junior Officer @ [40] Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen @ [35] Pts
Lasgun (x1); Meltagun (x2); Missile Launcher
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x8); Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x8); Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x8); Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x8); Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW

0 Infantry Platoon @ 425 Pts
0 Command Squad @ [85] Pts
Drop Troops; Sharpshooters
1 Junior Officer @ [40] Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen @ [35] Pts
Lasgun (x1); Meltagun (x2); Missile Launcher
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x8); Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x8); Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x8); Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x8); Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW

0 Infantry Platoon @ 425 Pts
0 Command Squad @ [85] Pts
Drop Troops; Sharpshooters
1 Junior Officer @ [40] Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen @ [35] Pts
Lasgun (x1); Meltagun (x2); Missile Launcher
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x8); Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x8); Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x8); Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x8); Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW

Total Roster Cost: 2000

Deadshane1 wrote:I dont think that marine list you posted is that clear of a trump against the Necron list Stelek.

You might outnumber his Destroyers, but if he engages you at distance, he'd pick you apart over 6 turns for the win.

He has so much mobility over you it isnt even funny. The list you posted sucks against any army with firepower AND the ability to move and shoot. Destroyers can fight you at extreme range using terrain to block line of sight against any unit he isnt engaging. I can see beating that list with his quite easily.

On the other hand, if you fight in a desert at 24" you could win. Hopefully, the necron wouldnt be that stupid.

Oh I don't think it is a clear trump. I see his destroyers dying in this order:

Heavy turn 1.
Half of the fast on turn 2.
Rest of the fast on turn 3.

Without Monoliths, I simply cannot help but scoff at Destroyer units. No matter you cut it, being mobile is GREAT until you have a 36" range and so does the other guy.

This is the same weakness suffered by Eldar.

In normal Tournaments with 25% of terrain or less, the tactics you speak of are really very easily limited. What happens when it's the standard 2x1x2 terrain and a diagonal deployment zone? An autoloss for the Necrons because he can't hide?

By the way, only my Godzilla list and my 300+ guard army got draws vs this army. Every other army, got smashed dead in the face by it. I think you underestimate it.

72 heavy bolter shots is a mobility all it's own.

Hell I played a lash list and a smurf min/max army, and despite playing as stupid as I could--the army couldn't lose at the ard boyz. I gave up trying to lose and annihilated a mech chaos list in 3 turns. *shrug* Marines are a pita, and since Necrons without Monoliths cannot stop me from clumping all my guys together into a 12" box...how one is going to 'use terrain' or 'block los' or 'engage at range' is really something you've got to explain. Gonna sit at exactly 36" and snipe 1 marine a turn? What are the immortals doing, hiding? I mean, think about it. I have less problems with Necrons than most players, but I just don't see it.

Both of the armies that you've posted require your enemy to charge into the teeth of your guns with no concern for their safety.

I dont see either of those lists as very good ones. Probably for the same reasons that lists like those arent normally seen in the later games of a larger tournement by good players. They might be decent spoilers against power lists but the mobility in each is nonexistant. Neither has any HtH capability. All they do is stand there and shoot.

Do you play with any terrain in your store? or scenarios other than "12" in Kill"?

correct, they do. However, since the armies presented require ME to apparently stand there and let them assault me--can you tell me why me shooting them dead is somehow unacceptable to you but getting assaulted by 6" movers is?

Sure these lists aren't any good. Undefeated, but no good.

When you say good players, I'm assuming I'm not one.

When you say larger tournaments, I assume you don't mean GT's but you mean something else--what, i can't imagine.

10 years, always scoring in the top 10 for battle points, at 1-2 GT's per year.

I've used these armies and many like them to beat mobile or hth armies to death.

If you haven't been playing 40K long, it's a shooting game. Few armies really assault. Especially if all their units are dead. That's how I play. Your mileage obviously varies.

In our store, let me see, on a 6x4 table the density is about twice what you see at a GT.

Scenarios, like...the complete rubbish ones at every tournament? Whatever for? They aren't tests of an army, they are tests of a players luck.

All I play locally is indeed the much maligned in 12" and kill, but since I go to tournaments and play the luckfests and win anyway--what's that say?

Somehow I get your message that I suck, I play crap lists, I play noobs, I play on barren boards, I'm skillless as a general, and if I could just play real players what I said would have merit.

Those 150+ GT players I beat, that's meaningless...unless I go to Adepticon and win some sort of a tournament there?

Gee willickers. I keep getting challenged/invited, but I really just can't go to Adepticon and honestly, don't care to. It's very gimmicky to me.

Just my two cents. One cent to you, I guess.

By the way, I guess I should ask--since I see sooo many subpar lists posted here, can you post an army that will trump say the 200 man IG army? Not counting Smurf Terminators, since I already said that's a real challenge for the list. What, godzilla?! LOL. Eldar? LOL!!!!! Please, that list owns them. But IG aren't tier 1 because they can't move? LOL!!!!

Come on, be serious. Post a uber bang bang death list for me to look at. I've been here a while, and so far I haven't seen ANY competitive armies get posted that I don't have better versions of. Cocky? You bet.

I got reason to be.

Stelek wrote: No matter you cut it, being mobile is GREAT until you have a 36" range and so does the other guy.

72 heavy bolter shots is a mobility all it's own.

I dont buy it.

If all we're doing is constructing lists and ignoring player intelligence and tactics, I could make up a DARK ANGEL army (for cripes sakes) that could outshoot either list easily. I dont play that army however because of the mobility factor.

Fact of the matter is, most people have a plan for dealing with overwelming firepower. On paper armies like this might look good, but in practice they fail to deliver at the higher levels of gaming.

Dark Angels can't actually outshoot either list, sadly for the facts to come out like that.

Again, I suck and my lists suck--which is really funny. Anyway it's fine with me if you think that, I think you're wrong--I play a different game of 40K than you. Might I ask how well you do, or post a list?

I hope to see one in the morning, that's just gonna smash me around and make me see the light.

Stelek, many of us here do well in tournements....as one good player to another (assuming that you're as awesome as you say), all I'm saying is that if the weakest codex out right now can outshoot yours....

HQ

Sammael

Inquisitor Lord (DH)-Psycannon, Null rod, Emperors Tarot, psychic hood, Targetter, Mystic(2), Sage(2), HB servitor(2), PC servitor

ELITE

Inquisitor (WH)-Liber Heresius, HB Servitor (3)

Inquisitor (DH)-Psycannon, Targetter, Mystic, HB Servitor (3)

Techmarine- HB Servitor (4)

Techmarine- HB Servitor (2), PC servitor (2)

Techmarine- HB Servitor (2), PC servitor (2)

TROOPS

Tac Squad (5)-sgt w/pw, Razorback with twin LC

Ravenwing (3)-sgt w/pw

HEAVY SUPPORT

Whirlwind

Predator Annihilator

Predator Annihilator

-2000 pts


.....I dont think much of your lists.

2 Psycannons, 7 Lascannons, 16 Heavy Bolters, 6 Plasma Cannons, A whirlwind shot, a better than 50/50 chance to go first and the ability to choose your deployment zone instead of rolling for choice dont decide who wins the battle. Your lists have decent firepower, sure, but this list has better and more of it....and it isnt "all that". Theres much more to this game than stand there and shoot firepower. If you are indeed as awesome a GT player as you claim, I'm surprised you dont know that.

Stelek wrote:Dark Angels can't actually outshoot either list, sadly for the facts to come out like that.

Care to rephrase?

Stelek wrote:

Again, I suck and my lists suck--which is really funny. Anyway it's fine with me if you think that, I think you're wrong--I play a different game of 40K than you. Might I ask how well you do, or post a list?

Funny, but I dont actually remember saying that you OR your lists SUCK...they simply arent flexible in any amount, which to me makes them less than optimal lists for tournement play. In answer to your question, if you indeed frequently score within top 10% in major tournements, then we have that in common.

You seem a bit testy, might I suggest you switch to decaf?

If that's a better army, I'm a dog's hound buddy.

I shoot, you lose vehicles and HB servitors. I get saves, better toughness, and extra bodies.

Man, you gotta come up with something better than that.

Deadshane I tend to agree with you. Mobile firepower will defeat those foot lists. It is relatively simple to move around a piece of terrain, shielding you from 90% of the return fire and sweeping the board from one direction to the other.

Terrain has never been a problem in the Chicagoland area as anyone who's been to Adepticon knows.

A simple area 3 terrain in the center 12" of the board would be almost certain death for either of those footsloggers. The guard list I would just assault with toughness 5 Destroyers. Fighting in the desert is one thing, but the mission and any type of decent terrain will doom those lists.

In reality that guard list would be impractical to field in a timed tournament anyway. It would have a hard time reaching turn 3 let alone turn 6. I've seen that list each year at the Adepticon Gladiator and every time it loses because of it's unwieldness.

Now it might be tough for us to be heard behind the 160+ posts per week that will deny this.

Stelek wrote:

I shoot, you lose vehicles and HB servitors. I get saves, better toughness, and extra bodies.

Stelek, that seems to be your answer to everyone, in any thread.

"I shoot, you die"

Your tactical genius has indeed won the day, congratulations.

For the record, I wasnt actually pitting this list against yours in an actual fight, if I was then I'd remove all the psychic defense and ww adding more firepower for MEQ. My point was that the firepower is better (it is) but thats not enough to win a fight and that this sort of list is weak in tournement play.

DarthDiggler wrote:
Terrain has never been a problem in the Chicagoland area as anyone who's been to Adepticon knows.

A simple area 3 terrain in the center 12" of the board would be almost certain death for either of those footsloggers. The guard list I would just assault with toughness 5 Destroyers. Fighting in the desert is one thing, but the mission and any type of decent terrain will doom those lists.

In reality that guard list would be impractical to field in a timed tournament anyway. It would have a hard time reaching turn 3 let alone turn 6. I've seen that list each year at the Adepticon Gladiator and every time it loses because of it's unwieldness.

Now it might be tough for us to be heard behind the 160+ posts per week that will deny this.

Its funny how he considers Adepticon "gimmicky". A strange way to describe what many many gamers consider the best tournement in the country. Maybe playing with terrain on the field is the "Gimmick" he's talking about.

His lists might be good on boards with a massive killing field smack in the middle of the board and him having the ability to deploy no more than 6" in without having more terrain blocking line of sight. Its funny how the single peice of terrain you mentioned, a single 12" peice of area 3 in the middle, break his armies against any decent rush or mobile firepower list.

....perhaps he plans on shooting the terrain as well, that seems to be his M.O.

Stelek-
Thank you for answering my request and providing the army lists. I think you are right about the IG list, but wrong about the Space Marines. I concur that the IG would be very hard for my Crons to defeat in open terrain, but I'm happy with my chances against that Marine list.

Adepticon-
I'm actually going this year. I haven't been before, but I've heard good things about the missions and the general atmosphere. Then again, didn't "It's Heavy, Doc" and "Battle in the Eye of Terror" come out of there? Those are wretched missions.

Playing Necrons I won't be in the team tourneys, but I hope to see some of you guys in individual tourneys.