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Hi all, I just started playing 40k about 2 months ago and I tried to build nids as a large horde with a very hard core. So far I'm 7-1-2. What does everyone think.

Hive Tyrant, VC, Lash & Bone Sword, Enhanced Senses, Toxin Sacs, Psychic Scream 2 Gaurd. 252
Flyrant, 2 Scything talons, Toxin Sacs, Psychic Scream. 153
2 x Carnifex, BS, VC, Enhanced Senses. 296
3 x Warriors, Talons and Deathspitter (1 with VC), Enhanced Senses. 91
3 x Warriors, Talons and Deathspitter (1 with BS), Enhanced Senses. 86
3 x Warriors, Twin linked Dev, Enhanced Senses. 78
20 x Hormagaunts. 200
20 x Hormagaunts. 200
17 x Spinegaunts. 85
19 x Termagaunts. 114
3 x Zoanthrope. Psychic Scream. Warp Blast. 195

Feedback is appreciated

Bone sword? What ever for?

lose the bonesword and get devourers instead.
Break up those gaunt squads into 12 in each squad max.
Start investing in enhanced carapace for all of your TMC's (except the flyrant of course)

Darrian

Why 12 max for each Gaunt unit? (I know it frees up points, but what does 12 give me vs say 8 or 16?)

Whip and bonesword were just on there for looks as I built the model befor I really understood the HT's role in the army. I think Ill convert the arm with the bonesword to twin linked devs and keep the whip for looks.Is it worth dropping a couple hormagaunts for the better save on my HT or Sniper Fexs?

Other question:

Should I adjust a Zoanthrope to have Synapse instead of Scream, drop a unit of warriors and add a DakkaFex?

You have 17, 19 and 20. The problem with such a large unit is that they do not manuever on the table well, and the additional models do not add much other than wounds. You want to put as many units on the table as you can for both scoring/objective grabbing purposes and to give you a deployment advantage. My Godzilla list has 17 scoring units, in the normal I go-you go deployment system, I am usually still putting down troops while my opponent is already on HQ or even fast attack. That way I can see where his valuable units are before I place my valuable units.

You have 5 units that produce synapse, that is more than enough. You can definitely use a dakkafex or 3.

Darrian

Son based on the advice I made a couple of small changes. I took the gaunts and hormagaunts into units of 12 so,...

12 Spine
12 Term
12 Term
12 Horm
12 Horm
12 Horm

Then I dropped the Twin-link dev warriors in favor for a Dakka-Fex.
I also re-configured the shooting tyrant by dropping the useless whip/boneswrod for twin linked devs.

I debated dropping the warriors completly and giving the Zoanthropes synapse (instead of Scream) but I feel like I loose a bit of fluff and a fun little feature of the army. So I assume Im going to need to be VERY careful with synapse during the first couple turns of all of my games. Ugg, Im dreading Escalation. Any suggestions (what is the "best" warrior layout???)?

Thanks for everyones feedback.

It seems like any list with a few Monstrous Creatures is being dubbed a "Nidzilla" these days.

A Tyranid Godzilla army is one based around all Monstrous Creatures with just the extra points used to fill in the gaps.

What you have here is definitely not a Godzilla list. This isn't a bad thing if you want to be different (which I respect) but it is a bad thing if all you want to do is win your games.


There is no "best" Warrior layout IMHO since they are a fundamentally overpriced unit for what they can do no matter how you configure them. At least you figured out that if you do take them you should always keep them pretty darn cheap (which you have).

IMO, Warriors should only ever be taken for extra Synapse and if so should only get Scything Talons/Rending Claws and Extended Carapace (and sometimes leaping). Shooting Warriors are almost always outclassed by any enemy firepower they run up against.


If you're playing in games that use Escalation you definitely need to lose a bunch of Hormagaunts. At most you'd want to have one smallish unit to use as a speed bump but you don't want to have too many points in units that are going to struggle to contribute in Escalation games.

The "Choir" tactic of having 4+ Psychic Screams is only really a fit for a shooting Tyranid army and the only really effective build of that is the Godzilla (with x3 Dakkafexes), although for a "fun" alternative I was just discussing making a super Termagaunt Choir alternative army type (see the Tactics forum thread on Tyranid Horde armies).

For the Zoanthropes as long as you have Warriors in your army you don't need to give them Synapse, but if you lose the Warriors (as you probably should) then you need to give at least one of your Zoanthropes Synapse.

As for the flying Tyrant, again if you are going with a choir based army you'd definitely want to stick with x2 TL Devourers rather than the CC fonfigured Tyrant.

I'd take without number on the gaunt squads.

mortetvie wrote:I'd take without number on the gaunt squads.

Wha???

Without Number is one of the worst upgrades in the game of 40k, why would you ever suggest someone take it?

AMEN!

I challenge anyone to explain to me the benefit of paying 3 points more for each gaunt in order to get "without number" compared to just buying more guants in the first place. My fleshboarer guants cost 6 points each and I use 72 of them in a 2000 point army. Why would paying 9 points a piece for 48 guants with "without number be better?

Darrian

I love to see W/o Number across the table; it means I can just kill the same overpriced Gaunts over and over, and not worry about having to try and score off the much tougher MCs.

I was actually trying to avoid being Nidzilla as it seems like the antithesis of the nid fluff. I just used the name because that was the first thing that came to mind.

Played a rogue trader today and went 2-1. The loss was against a Nid Stealer shock list which I simply misplayed (only my 11th game overall).

Ive been having fun with the list and that was the primary goal. But I think I will change the Flyrant to twin linked Devs as it simply makes more sense. I think Ill also play around with a warrior less list and get rid of the choir (in favor of Synapse on the Zoanthropes and the Better Save on the Flyrant, not sure what or if I will give the shooty Tyrant a Physchic power). I really want to keep the horde though. Maybe Geanstealers instead of Hormagaunts? Any non Carnifex ideas?

In the end I want to build a good Horde army that is fun to play with and against. I don't think I want to give my fexes the 2+ save (they simply arn't fun to play against, I'd prefer to play a fun game as opposed to getting no game at all).

Woah, nidzilla is the antithesis of the nid fluff? Since when?

Carnifexes have been around since the beginning. You can just run more of them.

Horde armies are very difficult to PLAY and have fun with, because 200 models you have to move then move again (fleet) is physically tiring.

Mentally tiresome as well.

Anyway if you want to run a horde army, you need to run multiple small units of warriors. Give them leaping, ST, and claws so they are some sort of threat. That way you can run more units that soak up fire, and you have enough synapse on the board.

I can give you a suggestive list, if you'd like.

fbcota, I know where you're coming from. The "six+ MCs and only token troops" lists depress me too. I like the direction you're taking.

I have no problem with Carnifexs, if I could run about 60 of them so I could go 2 to 1 against the armies I normally play than that is fine by me. But from all the fluff surrounding Nids it seems that only fielding 30 some odd models does not constitute an overwhelming force. It just seems everything in the books leans toword giant hordes of models.

Although you have good points. Moving 200 models is not all that fun, but I have found ways to do it (of course Im only running half the models). Stalek, you mentioned that you had a list? I would love to see it. Im really trying to listen to everyones experience to make the best list that I possibly can that will fullfill what I am looking for in 40k. Also, can anyone point me to a traditional Nidzilla list (I guess I just need to know what non MC's are being used).

On a side note, beyond the fun and fluff aspect. Im not playing nidzilla due to the simple fact that I don't want to push the overpowered lists at the Hobby Store I play with. We have a wide variety of players and it seems that if anyone builds an overly powerful list in any game then everyone starts power gaming. However, I will not hesitate to run 42 Broodlords in a 3000pt apocalypse game (screw the fluff, the endless horde crumbles to 10 Lemon Russ and 2 Baneblades).

I posted such a list for you.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/206333.page

Come ON stelek. I'm not one to be a fluff nazi, but I make a very hard distinction between what is fluffy, what is enjoyable, and what wins. But look at your gunwall. It's an enjoyable list or you would have ditched it by now. It's a winning list, or you wouldn't talk about it so much. Ther eis NOTHING wrong with either of those things, they're great! But fluffy?

Show me one piece of "fluff" that has shooty carnifexes in it, especially to the EXCLUSION of CC carnifexes. Show me ONE piece of fluff tht features a flyrant with so much firepower as opposed to having the CC capaility of a platoon of marines or more.

Nidzilla, to my understanding, is the 8 MC list focusing on shooting. It wins. A LOT. And I support that, am not ripping on it or crapping on it. However, it is not "fluffy".

The closest you will find to Nidzilla references in the fluff are thereferences to there being a LOT of ALL types of nids, not just gaunts and stealers. Lots of the big bugs as wel as the little trash monsters. However, looking strictly at their MO, the nids are, fluff-wise, a horde. That desn't win as many games, though.

Not trying to rip anyone up. Nidzilla is a good list for enjoyable play fr a lot of people. It is a good winning list. It is NOT fluffy.

Shooty fexes, no.

Lots of big monstrous creatures and lots of little ones?

Yes! I have every variant of nid in my army except the warrior strains...because I had a warrior army and wanted something different.

I think if you'd played Nids as long as I have (this is my 3rd army of them) you'd realize unlike all the other armies, Nids change....and they change alot. Everybody complained when they were the premier assault army, now they can shoot you so it's not fluffy?

How many times do the Nids have to get shot before they adapt and shoot back?

Thought the "assumed mutability" stance on shooty was next. And that's what it is, an assumption. Heck, if you want to get down to it, I would posit that bugs have goten much LESS shooty, rules-wise, in their current codex compared to their last codex. I also think that I've played bugs a heck of a lot longer than you assume, if not from competitive inclination. I remember fielding swarms of warriors, ALL armed with venom cannons mostly just because I could. 18 S7 shots from one squad was scaring the crap out of my LGS. A carnifex with a venom cannon was in the same role then as now.

Nids evolve, yes. Nids change, yes. Nids fluff speaking of shooty tyrants and carnifexes? Not that I remember. Could be wrong, but don't think so. Taking the route of assumed mutability with regard to shooting is just an assumption when applied to fluff. But it makes great sense when applied to rules.

Again, let me take a sec to state I am not tryin to flame you here. So many times people lose track of the fact that they can have a discussion, disagree, and not be "flaming". I hold respect for your lists and ideas, I just disagree with your tone and your ideas on fluff. I WILL be "borrowing" some ideas I got from you and others here when I fially get around to the tyranid kits Ms. Grin (hpefully) got me for Christmas.

Take care.

I'm not thinking you are flaming me.

Not sure what 'tone' I'm using. I think Nids can be anything they want to. I don't have a problem with the current list from a fluff point of view.

Nids are currently owning everyone in the fluff. Making a powerful army list isn't difficult, so what am I to worry about if guns are fluffy or not?

Mind you, as a disclaimer, this is my first Nid army with ANY guns in it. Times change, I guess, is my only real argument.

Thanks for posting the list.

So Ive been playing around with a couple ideas on my current list. Right now its basically:

HT, VC and 2 Devs, 2 Guard, Scream, +1BS, +1ST
Flyrant, 2 Talons, Scream, +1ST
3 Zoanthropes, Scream, Warp Blast
2 Shooty Fexes, VS, BS, +1BS
1 DakkaFex, 2 Twin Devs, +1BS
3 Warriors, Deathspitters, Talons, +1BS, 1 with VC
3 Warriors, Deathspitters, Talons, +1BS, 1 with BS
12 Termagaunts
12 Termagaunts
12 Spinegaunts
12 Hormagaunts
12 Hormagaunts
12 Hormagaunts

Here are the changes I am now considering:
Shift of the 2 warrior units to Scytals, and Claws. Possibly rending. However, I have always been very careful with them as they currently just provide synapse a couple of random shots. And I wouldn't want to loose that synapse. Possibly remove the DakkaFex in place of some combat warriors (for more synapse bassically).
Change the Flyrant to 2 twin linked devs with better bs.

Or, remove the warriors completly. Give the Zoanthropes Synapse and completly drop Scream. That will free up about 200pts. Which I have no idea what to do with. I considered better saves on my MCs but I decided I just didn't want to do that. I could pad all the troop units with about 4 more guys each (16 strong each unit)? I could ungrage my Hormagaunts with better ini (making them much more effective IF they get into combat with all the other INI4 units in the game)? Or I could spend the points on Geanstealers (Switch a Hormagaunts unit with an equal sized Geanstealer unit)?

Thoughts?

Tactically speaking, you are in trouble with the army as you cannot overwhelm anyone but Tau or Guard in CC with the gaunts. Even upgraded, they aren't THAT good. Gaunts are throwaway troops, always have been and always will be. Warriors without leaping or wings, have to hide because they'll only get to do anything when your opponent decides now is the time to roll the dice and assault what's left of your army to death.

Scream + Gaunts doesn't work. Gaunts lose against marines, and then who cares about LD modifiers?

Try 4 fexes, no guard, 5 warrior units, and see how it plays. You can use the gaunts to tie people up until the warriors arrive, then crunch what will hurt your gunfexes with the warriors, and finish units off with the shooting from the fexes. I'd definitely always bring a flying warrior unit to bodyguard my flyrant. Since he can't kill vehicles, I don't know why everyone gives him shooty. Yeah he's shooty, but I want CC outta him and he just doesn't bring it without the 2 ST. If you put magnets in, you can run different combos and see what you like.

CC Flyrant, 4 flying warriors, yeah it draws a hell of a lot of fire because it can crunch most firebases into teeny little bits. Add in a gaunt rush backed by leaping warriors, and a decent wall of fexes...it's a nasty army to have to face because you can assault the other guy repeatedly from turn 2 through turn 4. Most armies can't handle that...esp if you run more units. Even single warriors are threats against the right units. Stealers aren't the right unit for this type of army. The Warriors will do their job.

I challenge anyone to explain to me the benefit of paying 3 points more for each gaunt

I would like for you to explain the benefits of spending over 100 points for upgrading all big bugs with 2+ saves. In a 1500 points list you're talking about a considerable investment on wargear instead of extra units. Against Orks your investment is probably just about worth it. Most Ork armies will have a couple Shoota Boyz mobs with Rokkits, and will possibly hit with a couple each turn. The extra save also helps against the Lootas. Against Chaos however, all you're ever running into is Plasma Guns and Lascannons and power weapons and you don't get anything at all out of the extra armour. The exact same applies to all Tau and Eldar armies, and many Space Marine armies.

Considering you're advocating everyone to buy 2+ saves for all their big bugs, I'd say you should explain the pros and cons a little better.

@Therion, I think this is addressed to me, correct?

If so, my Nidzilla list has 2 HT's and 2 Gunfexes, all with 2+ saves. Yes, this does cost 100 points, but it is 100 points well spent. These are the 4 most important units in my list by far. Not only does the 2+ save protect me from missile launchers it also greatly increases the protection against the VAST majority of fire from enemy units that are neither AP:2 or AP:3. My winning percentage with this list is directly related to the survival of these 4 units. Losing guants or raveners or even Dakkafexes does very little to decrease the effectiveness of this list, but keeping those 4 big guys means I usually win.

My challenge to you is to suggest to me how I could better spend those 100 points.

Happy New Year,

Darrian

I never buy the 2+ save.

If you think T6 with a 3+ save and 4 wounds x8 is somehow 'bad'....or needs improvement...

Really, it doesn't. So once in a while a missile launcher army will punish you. Big deal, most people don't run 'em.

Darrian13 wrote:@Therion, I think this is addressed to me, correct?

If so, my Nidzilla list has 2 HT's and 2 Gunfexes, all with 2+ saves. Yes, this does cost 100 points, but it is 100 points well spent. These are the 4 most important units in my list by far. Not only does the 2+ save protect me from missile launchers it also greatly increases the protection against the VAST majority of fire from enemy units that are neither AP:2 or AP:3. My winning percentage with this list is directly related to the survival of these 4 units. Losing guants or raveners or even Dakkafexes does very little to decrease the effectiveness of this list, but keeping those 4 big guys means I usually win.

My challenge to you is to suggest to me how I could better spend those 100 points.

Happy New Year,

Darrian

I can't tell you the last time I've seen an army with missile launchers (aside from my eldar)

grizgrin wrote:Come ON stelek. I'm not one to be a fluff nazi, but I make a very hard distinction between what is fluffy, what is enjoyable, and what wins. But look at your gunwall. It's an enjoyable list or you would have ditched it by now. It's a winning list, or you wouldn't talk about it so much. Ther eis NOTHING wrong with either of those things, they're great! But fluffy?

Show me one piece of "fluff" that has shooty carnifexes in it, especially to the EXCLUSION of CC carnifexes. Show me ONE piece of fluff tht features a flyrant with so much firepower as opposed to having the CC capaility of a platoon of marines or more.

Nidzilla, to my understanding, is the 8 MC list focusing on shooting. It wins. A LOT. And I support that, am not ripping on it or crapping on it. However, it is not "fluffy".

The closest you will find to Nidzilla references in the fluff are thereferences to there being a LOT of ALL types of nids, not just gaunts and stealers. Lots of the big bugs as wel as the little trash monsters. However, looking strictly at their MO, the nids are, fluff-wise, a horde. That desn't win as many games, though.

Not trying to rip anyone up. Nidzilla is a good list for enjoyable play fr a lot of people. It is a good winning list. It is NOT fluffy.

The reason you say there won't be any 'fluff' to be found about shooty fexes is because they are a NEW permutation of the Tyranids over all. Writing the fluff for them now as we play and incorporate NEW, mutably sound and powerfull units into the Tyranid species. That's the whole point of playing and being Tyranid... change. The Imperium as a whole is crippled in many ways by their absolute resistance to change how things are or were... you'd probably be a great Smurf or IG player with that same attitude.

In the Tyranids Codex introduction it says quite explicitly "At the other end of the spectrum are full armies of Tyranid monstrous creatures, lumbering powerhouses capable of ripping apart an enemy squad without sustaining a scratch." That shows the intent and knowledge of the designers to bring out ways to play bugs that have not ever existed before... thus perpetuating the age old and most relavant piece of Tyranid fluff, if it works better the bugs will find it, adapt and CHANGE. Sticking to the 'fluff' that has already been written is actually LESS Niddy than changing totally how they have been played and evolved.

The Nid invasions have all been stopped or redirected from thier goals so far... a dramatic change that gives terrible advantage IS the best way to be buggy I'd say!

I like all kinds of Nid lists, especially all the old-school swarm & stealer style lists... but until the next codex removes that build option (if it does) then we should embrace the new bugginess as well. Play what you like but hold your harsh judgement in check, it's really not warranted IMHO.

I play swarm & stealer lists BTW, in case you wanted to know.

So far the Nids HAVE been a horde army... the winds of change and adaption may change that in their history as they become a greater focus in the 40k universe.

Hey there Rockit.

"Harsh judgement"? Bro, you need to spend a little more time around this forum before makin a call like that. Not that I am the old hand around here, far from it, but these here folks in these here parts get DOWN. Also, I think the only person who, really, would be justified in calling anything I said "harsh", would be Stelek. Read over some of his responses, I don't think offense was taken. Stelek, feel free to weigh in here if I'm wrong.

There's a difference between someone trying to make a point with a bit of fervor, and someone out actin the fool. I would expect someone from a place that close to that many LSU fans to be used to some intensity. Come on, how many times do you see the phrase "Geaux Tigers" in traffic, or hear it on the radio? How many purple and gold stickers? If you don't see it or hear it, you must live in Kansas, with Toto.

NOT that there is anything wrong with the Tigers. Again, not tryin to light any fuses. I can't stand college ball anyway, no matter the team. Or pro ball. ANY ball.

I don't know how much more writing I would have needed to do to get that across. Maybe you should have read the box you quoted a little better. I dunno.

Also, you still haven't addressed the shooty aspect as I was looking for in the first place. And your response diatribe (I'm one to use THAT word, eh? ) on mutability was delivered on a topic that was never questioned. Yeah, they are changing. No kiddin. Still lookin for those shooty Carni and HT quotes. Lemme know when you find one that supports the gunwall. As far as your quote on MC's, sounds a lot like H2H to me, not shooty. Didn't quite address what I was looking for, but a good find nonetheless. Good job. However, it doesn't fit your fan-driven mutation theory, as I addressed in an earlier post in this thread. I remember posting something about bugs being shootier in the previous codex? So what's that mean, now the bugs, codex wise, are evolving AWAY from shooting? All I can see, is that they are evolving toward more Carnifexes, since we can bring up babyfexes as Elites now. Relevant to this discussion, at least, sure there are plenty more changes.

As far as us, the players, writing the fluff; I think you over-estimate our impact on GW. They'll write, and re-write, the fluff as they see fit. Regardless of what we do or say. As long as they can find some way of tying it to our wallets without having to invest too much time or resource. Mind you, sometimes they could do a better job at that, but that's a different mindless rant...

I've posted a proper zilla list somewhere in this forum, have a gander at that

Also it's only qworth takign two types of guants, either termagants and hormogaunts or spineguants and hormogaunts if you are, problem hormogasunts have is stealers are just so much better with the rending claws BUt they are pricy.

Never take w/out numbers. Unless it's an apocalypse game. then it's just a fun 6 hour free for all, depending on how you do apocalypse.