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Stelek wrote:I never buy the 2+ save.

If you think T6 with a 3+ save and 4 wounds x8 is somehow 'bad'....or needs improvement...

Really, it doesn't. So once in a while a missile launcher army will punish you. Big deal, most people don't run 'em.

Are you serious?

2+ save on a Fex or Tyrant is key. Its not just for the missiles but for the assault cannons multi lasers, auto cannons, and heavy bolters that you see in many lists. the 2+ save changes everything. I would keep those 2+ saves because the points are worth it.

Yes, I'm serious.

I'm happy with a 3+ save and T6.

I'd rather have more stuff than a slightly better chance to not take a wound.

let 'em wound them if they can. Having more flexible units in my army makes my army better (IN MY OPINION) than having 2+ saves.

Its a little more than slight chance not to take a wound and will allow for more fire to be directed to one place.

Having more flexible units does in fact make any army better but with that you open your self up to spreading thin. some times having sturdy units that can take a beating and keep moving will out way flexibility in the long run.

It is? It's 1 more shot on the D6, right?

So all those missile launchers I don't see...it helps, and against those S5-7 weapons with lots of shots I'm not afraid of...it helps a little...but against meltas, las, and plas...which is what usually kills my fexes, it does diddly?

Wow you talk about flexibility but that last post of yours just says to me that I am not going to be Flexible at all. When you prepare a list for a tournament do you always take units based on best possible outcome? Or do you plan for the worst and hope for the best? I always play as a pessimist because playing any other way will lead to being over confident which will result in a much bigger loss and a large bruise on your ego. I take 6 man Las/Plas squads because for the points I can't find a better choice. I take speeders with assault cannons because in the worse case the hide all game and count as a scoring unit at the end.

I would take a 2+ armor save on my gun Fexes because untill the Dakka Fexes become a threat those Fexes are my #1 target. Becasue of that I would almost always expect to see an 8 man dev squad with 4 missles.

I dunno, haven't seen many missile launchers lately. Not in tournament play anyway. Been what, 25 games or so and about 3 years ago?

I make *my* armies more flexible by not paying the points for the 2+ save and giving me more models in other units.

@fbcota - I really would like to see more CC punch in the form of stealers or Raveners instead of so many little bugs relying on Synapse. Giving the Warriors Leaping + Rending wouldn't hurt, I'm just not a fan of shooty warriors, unless maybe with Devourers.

I prefer the 2+ save on the Flyrant, and generally, on the Gunfex's as well, but I'm used to playing 1750-1850; not 1500.

With the coming of Lootas and horde Orks, I see the 3+ save Fex's as easy meat for my Shootas+Rokkits, and most importantly, Lootas.

From playing Marines for a year and a half, the Las/Plas doesn't care what saves you have, but the Assault Cannons certainly love to eat up the Dakka Fex's, even when I don't get rends, since if I can force saves, they do eventually fail.

The other night I was watching a game between an ork horde and zilla list (the one that placed 4th at GT Baltimore) a single unit of lootas shot at a dakka fex and that dakka fex turned to gooo. Something kile 42 shots 16 hits and 12 wounds. However the secon unit of lootas shooting at the 2 + save gunfex getting close to 10 wounds left that fex with 3 wounds still intact (from its original 5). The 2+ kept that gun fex alive untill it was able to deliver the cargo that was hiding behind it and wound up winning the game.

The 2+ save is needed when it comes to Gun Fexes and Flyrants.

meh, i do run missile launchers in my dark angels list and i don't find extended carapace to be much of a worry. i'll just shoot the missiles at dakka fexes, it's not like i don't have other weapons for handling 2+.

on the other hand when i'm playing my necrons the extended carapace is a real pain. but i believe stelek's point (and it's a big part of my list building philosophy) is that extended carapace might be great some of the time, but those same points spent on more stealers or whatever is going to be useful all the time.

While it might be convenient to pick and choose when to take EC you don't always have that luxury what is the point of having stealers if your Fex wall is not durable enough to get those stealers into threat range? Week fex walls lead to poor preforming Nid lists. Saving points in certain areas to bulk up other units will come back and bite you.

If you buy your fexes for shooting rather than for being durable enough to hide stealers, the various upgrades just wind up making you overly expensive.

The proper tyranid MC list ought to involve 60-100 gaunts, some raveners, and 167pt cheapo gunfexes (because they kill tanks at 36" for not a lot of points).

My personal list involves 2+, T7, 5 wound regenerating gunfexes (@ 2000pts), but that's because I am too lazy to move gaunts around not because I would argue that it's better.

But you are also taking a diffrent approach than the norm where as the points that go into upgrading to T7 and 5 wounds are sometimes better spent on EC. From my most recent game play I have noticed that I can deal with T7 5 wound fexes as long as they do not have a 2+ save. The 2+ save makes my bolters almost ineffective. Where as with the 3+ I was still doing a wound here and there with them.

I built an alternate list that I have yet to play. Maybe Ill test it this weekend.

I gave the 2 Hive Tyrants 2+ saves (and 6+ invuln on the flyrant).
I gave the 2 Sniper Fexs a 2+ save.
Dropped the warriors completly.
Dropped the choir and gave the Zoanthropes synapse (kept Warp Blast).
I replaced a unit of Hormagaunts with 12 Genestealers.

So, list looks like this.
3 zoans (Blast, synapse)
Combat Flyrant 2+ save
Shooty Tyrant, 2 gaurd, 2+ save.
Dakka Fex
12 hormis
12 hormis
12 genestealers
12 terms
12 terms
12 spine

I may drop to 8 genestealers and give them a set of scytals. Play wise, I plan to play the list similarly to the last one.

The Gaunts are mainly trash units to throw at the enemy and objectives (they work great and I have had a 60 point unit of gaunts keep pesky terminators and dreadnaughts out of entire games).
The hormigaunts are generally the first attack wave. Plus, everyone seems to think that killing them should be there first priority (which has won me almost every game Ive played).
The Flyrant is used to support forward synapse and hopefully follow the first wave of gaunts into combat. If terrain is good, then he is more of a decoy target to distract the opponent from the big guns.
The genestealers are meant mostly for playing other nid lists and dealing with anything that deep strikes or tries to get into combat in my back lines. Secondary usage is following the Flyrant or Dakka Fex forward as a 2nd or 3rd wave assault force.
The Dakkafex is my linebacker. He just walks forward and kills units. And at only 113 points I don't opponents firing everything they have at him.
2 sniper fexs are my long range tank killers. Tyrant with gaurd is mostly used to pick off any targets that the Sniper Fexs dont.
Zoanthropes are Synapse and used for dropping walkers, terminators and anything with a high save.

I know the genestealers are allot of points and soft. But I want to try having a bit more of a combat core. Plus, the only list I have any problems with so far is a Stealer Shock nid list. So with a tactic change and the stealer unit I think I wont have a problem with that list again.

Thoughts?

It is impossible for me to stress enough the importance of Dakkafexes to this kind of list. Please, dump the hormagaunts and replace them with 2 more dakkafexes. Dakkafexes are the best unit you can buy for 113 points. They are ridiculously undercosted.

More dakkafexes!

Darrian

I am simply not interested at all in playing a list with 5 carnifexes. I really want to have a ton of Gaunts and Hormigaunts and so far every game I have played the Hormigaunts have more than paid for themselves.

Thank you for your suggestions, but I want to build a list that is fun to play that is a horde army. Plus, Im not really in the mood to fork up $90 for 2 more little plastic carnifexs.

The plastic carnifexes are little?

Are the gaunts huge in your world? lol jk

that's why you marry a midget. your gaunts look so much bigger in her tiny little hands.