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Keep in mind I haven't played a full blown game of 40k in near 2 years. I did do a 400pt skirmish with SM scouts vs. Necrons with 4th ed rules.

I'm looking at this as basis for my Ultramarine army.

4-6 10 man tact sqds in rhinos, 2 tornadoes w/ HB/AC. Undecided from here.

Thought behind tacts.....drive rhinos 12" fire smoke turn 1, drive to enemy deploy and rapid fire. Squads will consist of PC/PG, vet sgt w/ combi-plasma. Trying to justify vet sgt with combi and fist, 55+ pt vet sgt don't seem viable. Thought is to deploy and rapid fire pg/combi-plasma and 7 bolters. Next turn I have PC/pg/8 bolters. Doing this x6 should work, yea/nea?

Is this viable? Or am I thinking too much of 3rd ed rules. Worst case I use Rhino as mobile terrain. (yes I do know "new" vehicle rules).

Please explain your opinions.......

Also, know I have been playing 40k since '98 and understand use of terrain/tactics from battle to battle.

I have full company of marines so any option is playable for me, except my 3 boxes of termies aren't painted yet.

Depends what you mean by viable.

It's not going to be a strong army for a number of reasons.

Plasma Cannons: They're not very good, really. They cost a lot, they Get Hot, and with the 4th Ed blast template placement rules, a good player can limit you to one kill per hit, a lot of the time.

Rhinos: Transports (with the exception of Skimmers and the new Trukk) are total death traps.

That alone is enough to put the list well out of the top tier.

The closest thing to what you're talking about that actually is viable, is a Drop Pod army, but enough people have been playing them that a lot of folks will be ready to deal with it.

Instead of Plasma Cannons, take the Cleanse and Purify trait, and load up on Plasma Guns, or throw in a few Meltas for tanks.

Instead of Rhinos, take Drop Pods. The rules on these things are incredibly forgiving, and they're pretty cheap. You just plop down, hop out, blow people away.

Honestly, at this point I'd suggest you build a very conventional shooty list, with a core of 6-man Las/Plas squads, whatever else you have models for around that, but just go infantry heavy with plenty of shooting. You'll need a number of 4th Ed games under your belt to really see how the changes effect gameplay. By the time you've got it all sorted, you can do it again for 5th Ed (this summer, they say).

The only other suggestion I can think of, would be to play Sisters. They do a shooty Rhino Rush a lot better than Marines, because they're almost 50% cheaper per model, but in every way as good as Marines at getting out of a Rhino and shooting stuff (if not better, given their weapon options and Acts of Faith).

The modified Rhino rush works like this:
Take n Rhino squads and n Assault squads, pair them so that 1 Assault squad goes behind one Rhino squad.
Move the Rhinos at full speed with the Assault squad behind, let the Rhino squad disembark and rapid fire (if in rapid fire range or let it disembark so that the Rhino provides cover). Next turn, the Assault squad sweeps across the board while the Rhino squad secures the area deployed.

If your going the Rhino route, rather than the mind-numbingly boring 6xman las/plas, or Ass Spam, then I'd suggest using the DA rules for them. The Rhino's are cheaper, and you have the potential to split those 10xman squads to create a fire support base of 5xman Heavy Weapons to support the advance- if and when this is viable (dependent on opponent, mission, terrain, etc).

It is not, however, going to be the most effective army either DA or Trait Marine way, Rhino's are death traps- I've learnt the hard way, never to actually use them as transports.

If you want Rhinos, go for a fully mech army with Rhinos, Predators, and Tornados (and Assault Marines). Enemy shooting against such an army is often diluted.

When he says fully, he means 8-12 rhino chassis models on the table.

So wouldn't 6 man las/plas in razorbacks be better? With maybe x2 preds and a whirl/vindicator?

Las/plas SUCKS. I wish people would get that. It's sooo conditional on the other guy <1> coming close enough for you to double tap, <2> not shooting/assault your gunline dead, and <3> making you choose to move and rapid fire (losing the lascannon).

Save all those points and buy more of something else!

Razorbacks aren't very good because they are pretend tanks, armor 11 just dies. You can run them if you really want to, I just don't think that much of them.

Stelek is right about Razorbacks.

Compare
6 las/plas squads - 690 pts
6 Razorbacks w/ heavy bolters - 420 pts
Total: 1110 pts
with
6 drop pod squads (7 Marines w/ 2 plasma guns or meltas + 1 Vet Serg w/ power fist, trait Cleanse & Purify) - 1050 pts
6 Drop Pods - 180 pts
Total: 1230 pts.

Las/plas SUCKS. I wish people would get that.

Wrong. If anything sucks about it, it's that it's so incredibly obviously good that it takes no thought to see it.

You don't need to Rapid-Fire a Plasma gun all day long to get value out of it. It's 10 points. There are SO many models in the game that will pay you 10+ points to get a single S7AP2 shot at them. Terminators, Crisis Suits, Immortals, Destroyers, TMCs, etc. etc. Virtually any expensive and tough model will pay back the cost investment of a Plasma gun in one shot.

Even a lowly Marine does it in two. A Marine is 15 points. One BS4 Bolter shot kills (1*2/3*1/2*1/3)=.11 Marine. One BS4 Plasma shot kills (1*2/3*5/6)=.56 Marines. The net difference is .45. So, you pay 10 points to get .45 more dead Marines per shot. And .45 * 15 is 6.75. Get two shots with a Plasma gun, at Marines, all game, it paid for itself.

To be totally accurate, you actually do risk losing a model to shoot it, so the cost there is actually the odds of losing the model (1/18) times its cost (25), which is 1.39. STILL pays for itself in two shots.

Plus it threatens almost any vehicle in the game. Plus it kills 2+Sv.

All that aside, in my experience my Plasma Guns get to shoot a lot more than twice per game, and at a lot better targets than 15 point Marines.

Your points are all correct, but they still don't remove the fact that 10 points for a Plasma Gun is a steal. Yes, you're not likely to get many Rapid-Firing opportunities, yes a competent assault army will spend no more than one turn in the 24" range band. It's still only 10 points. Anything that can get through that 24" band and take only one shot is worth well more than that.

For example, an Assault Marine is 22 points. 22 * .45 is 9.9 points. Paid for itself.

Think of other stuff like Trukks, Raiders, etc. etc. That one S7 shot is huge when you're facing an open-topped assault like that.

Sure, in any one game, several Plasma Guns will probably be a total waste. But one will have killed a Terminator and paid for all the others. Or a Trukk, or a Hammerhead, or whatever and paid for itself, and all the others you fielded, for this game and the next.

We can just disagree.

I enjoy seeing plas/las squads on the table. They really do suck, despite all your points, for one major reason.

40K shooty games aren't decided at the tactical squad sitting in the backfield, if the enemy has broken through that far...

Your army is dead.

Gonna punk yourself a terminator before you get rolled?

Woo. Come on now. Do Ork players really care if it's a plasmagun or the lascannon or the bolters that blew their trukk up? Not anymore they don't. They just want to pass the pinning test and any shooting you have left, then come get ya. Trukks cost...10 more points than your non-suck marine does, but it's good for you and that's fine by me.

I don't think 60 points across 6 squads is worth the time it took to stick the guns on the model, when only 1 or 2 will fire in the whole game--if that, since most SAFH and mobile armies will beat you from outside 24".

The reality is, plasmaguns suck if you can't drop them on the other guy. I don't want to 'barely' get value. I want to get a pair of BS4 shots into the enemy, every time. That's value!

No offense Stelek, but WTF are you saying?

You rather get 2 BS4 shots? I assume you are saying rapid bolter fire. Are you worried about losing plasma gunner to overheat?

I'm not a fan of 5 man las/plas squads due to their overpoweredness, but I realize the usefulness in tourney armies. Try to get the most bang for your buck.

if you want to do a rush army, just get Tyranids.

Working on getting some 'nids. I have 30 Stealers and 10+ gaunts.

I want to Rhino rush with my Ultras. I know I can drop the SAFH, but I want to do something different. I understand I will lose tanks along the way.

They really do suck, despite all your points, for one major reason.

Well, given that you're Stelek, I know you speak in binary, and thus anything you don't yourself like is "0" aka. suck.

40K shooty games aren't decided at the tactical squad sitting in the backfield, if the enemy has broken through that far...

We're not talking about the enemy breaking through into the backfield. We're talking about a Plasma Gun with a 24" range. The Tac squad is typically deploying 6-12" from a table edge, so their range is 30-36" into a 48" deep table. That's not "the backfield," unless you mean the enemy's backfield.

Gonna punk yourself a terminator before you get rolled?

No, I'm going to point out that an Assault Cannon has 24" range, just like a Plasma Gun. The Plasma gun doubles the risk of getting into firing range of the Las/Plas squad.

Do Ork players really care if it's a plasmagun or the lascannon or the bolters that blew their trukk up?

No, they don't. But they do care if their Trukk gets blown up or not in the first place. Sure, they laugh it off a lot better than they used to, but they still lose the Trukk and end up standing next to it, where HBolters, etc. etc. can pick them off. If they hide behind the wreck, fine, they have a lot farther to walk. There's a huge difference between Orks bailing out and not getting too messed up, and Orks executing a perfect Trukk rush, coming out a full 12 Orks Deep.

The reality is, plasmaguns suck if you can't drop them on the other guy. I don't want to 'barely' get value.

Well, sure, they suck if you don't get to use them at all. That's a strawman, though. You do get to use them.

And I'm not saying you will "barely" get their value back. I was simply demonstrating how few shots you need to "barely" get their value back. In reality, you will get more than that, and they will MORE than pay for themselves.

Now, I've seen your SAFH Marine army. Your use of Lascannons is consistent with what you're saying. Your use of HBolters absolutely will put you outside of 24". Facing your SAFH Marine army, I can see the basis of your comments. However your SAFH Marine army is FAR from the only design (many others use Assault Cannons), and your SAFH Marine army certainly isn't all armies. The Plasma Guns will pay off huge against Godzilla, for example. Plasma Guns will pay off huge against AV10, such as Landspeeders, Trukks, etc.

I'd rather get 2 plasmashots from a drop pod or deep striking unit, than maybe 1 plasmashot from 1 guy in the backfield. Maybe you guys think the squads are hot, but I see them in nothing but unsuccessful marine armies. I'd rather see 6 plasmaguns (4-6 of which won't ever fire) than another 4 marines on the table soaking up wounds.

In other words, they don't ever really DO anything. You see them get setup, and you decide if you want to eat the plasmafire or if it's really a risk even if you do eat it.

I've seen more of those crappy min/max squads run away from my armies than I've seen fire. And that's at GT's! They truly suck. I haven't worried about them in tactical squads in forever. Meltaguns are more threatening than plasmaguns by far if you ask me.

Maybe you guys think the squads are hot, but I see them in nothing but unsuccessful marine armies.

I think the local "father" of the 6-man Las/Plas is Ed Maule. I'm sure the idea is bigger than just him, but he was one of the first to advocate it as a core unit on the Dakka boards.

The reason I mention him, is because he took 3rd place at Baltimore in 2005 with a Marine list featuring a number of the 6-man Las/Plas squads.

I think you're mistaking the fact that bad players use this configuration with it being bad. It's not bad, it's obvious. Obvious means idiots can use it just as well as good players.

Hmmm. Lots of "idiots" on the top 5 boards at every GT, then? I suppose.

Stelek wrote:Maybe you guys think the squads are hot, but I see them in nothing but unsuccessful marine armies.

Stelek wrote:Hmmm. Lots of "idiots" on the top 5 boards at every GT, then? I suppose.

I'm confused here. You seem to be saying that you only see 6-man las/plas squads in unsuccessful marine armies, AND that you see them in the top 5 at every GT. I can only conclude that you think that armies that get in the top 5 at GTs are "unsuccessful"?

This is some strange definition of "unsuccessful" with which I am not familiar.

What has not been considered is the fact that a core of las/plas squads is scary for the opponent to let his Termies deep strike close to them. Then the plasma guns may come to full effect...

What has not been considered is the fact that a core of las/plas squads is scary for the opponent to let his Termies deep strike close to them. Then the plasma guns may come to full effect...

Just one more useful side effect for them.

No no, not what I meant.

I meant I don't see these squads on the top 5, but if they're so 'obviously' good then I (and those marines that end up on the top tables) and they must be 'idiots' for not 'seeing' how good the las/plas combo is.

Don't bring termies to tournaments. Then you won't have that problem, and one's placing might even be higher.

Termies will suck until 1st edition 'ward save' rules are re-introduced. Who knows, maybe 5th edition? Of course Nurgle terminators lost FNP (which is a ward save) during the development of the Chaos Codex, so it's hard to say just what's going on. lol

Well let’s see if this thread can get back on subject from the nearly complete thread jack that has gone on here.

Rhino rush armies are mediocre at best these days. AV 11 isn’t difficult to get though…most armies have a decent amount of mid strength (5-7) weapons that get lots of shots. Smoke only helps you for one turn and it usually isn’t enough. This combined with the fact that you get entangled if your transport gets blown up makes getting across the field in rhinos difficult.

Now, with all the neigh saying being said, lets look at how you could take that base concept and work it out the best you can. The first thing you are going to need to do is maximize the number of tanks out on the field. If you have lots and lots of things to shoot at, you are more likely to get some of them through. That being said, I would recommend taking a lot of rhino based tac squads (like you originally suggested) as the basis of your army. If you find that you start running short on points without enough rhinos, take some 6 man squads with a rhino and a las cannon. Leave the squad in the back field and drive the rhino up with the others. I would then take the trait that allows you to trade your heavy weapon for an additional special weapon. Use this to load up your squads with plasma guns, flamers, and melta guns as you see fit. I, myself, personally like to have dedicated anti troop squads and dedicated anti tank squads so I wouldn’t mix and match weapons within the same squad too often, but do what works for you.

The next thing you need to do is put some more tanks on the table. 3 predators should cover this nicely. Arm them as you see fit, but everything comes with extra armor and smoke. If you want to get really crazy (and you are building a large army) you can add in dreadnaughts (twin linked lascannon and missile launcher variety) to fill you elite slots and some land speeders for fast attack.

The over all effect is that you army will have so much armor on the table that your opponent will have difficulty doing damage to it all. Your army might look something like this.

HQ choice of some sort…(possibly in a rhino)

10 marines, plasma, flamer, power fist, rhino (extra armor, smoke)
10 marines, plasma, flamer, power fist, rhino (extra armor, smoke)
10 marines, plasma, plasma, power fist, rhino (extra armor, smoke)
10 marines, plasma, plasma, power fist, rhino (extra armor, smoke)
6 marines, las cannon, rhino (extra armor, smoke)
6 marines, las cannon, rhino (extra armor, smoke)

Dreadnaught, twin las, missile launcher, venerable
Dreadnaught, twin las, missile launcher, venerable

Predator, triple las cannon (extra armor, smoke)
Predator, triple las cannon (extra armor, smoke)
Predator, auto cannon, heavy bolters (extra armor, smoke)

Land Speeder, heavy bolter, assault cannon
Land Speeder, heavy bolter, assault cannon

No idea how many points that is, but you can play around with it and make adjustments to fit whatever point level you are going to play at. The general idea is to zoom up the rhinos as a fairly continuous block. Have the 6 man squads deploy out of their rhinos at the start of the game and use their rhinos to block line of sight (or at least limit it) to the remaining rhinos and don’t worry too much when they get blown up. On the following turn, the remaining rhinos can move up and drop off their cargo (possibly into the 4+ cover of the wrecks of the 2 lead rhinos). Meanwhile, your predators and dreadnaughts can sit back and work on taking out any tanks the enemy may have. I would recommend that you keep the land speeders back the first turn or two, but once your marines are out of their rhinos, move the speeders up to support them and thin out the ranks of any hand to hand units that might be heading over to threaten your marines. In the later turns of the game, you can use any mobile rhinos you happen to have left as shields for your marines. Just keep the rhinos between the marines and anything you don’t want to see your marines. In addition, blown up rhinos are excellent pill boxes for marines squads to sit in and get cover saves, so even in death, they still serve.

In the end, this isn’t going to be a top tier list, but it should be fun and still provide you with some victories.

Thanks for the insight, Pheonix.

Because of the entangling and penetration roll Rhinos lost their luster?

Any thoughts on Vindicators in this lineup?

I have Battle company and linebreaker squadron on the sprue so lots of work ahead.

Hold on.

Stelek is so characteristically completely wrong with his call on 6 marine las/plas. It is not worth spending time on the subject. - But its not irrelevant.

The six man tacticals are fillers for Razorbacks. Whether they 'suck' or not is more open to debate, but they are relevant here, and while the effect is far different from Rhino Rush - a concept that didnt survive 3.5 - the theme is the same.

You take Razorback transports for extra shooty instead of extra assault.

Las/plas with a 70pt no frills Razorback is a good deal. The Razorback is not bad price for the firepower, and despite Av11 it works in numbers. As we are talking massed tacticals numbers are on your side. Lascannon destroy tanks, plasma and lascannons destroy heavy infantry. Heavy bolters shoot hordes. All rolled into one tactical slot that fires on two targets simultaneously. Multiply this by four to six and you have a viable base for your army.

Back it up with Vindies and or Preds to take the AT heat.

Not top tier, but viable.

While I think there is som eviability involved with a shooty razor army, we have to factor in escalation. Losing a turn of shooting (minimum) for the vehicles and 2 for the tac's lascannons is not a lot of fun.

What about 2 razors with 2 x plasma guns as a counter? But if you do that would you be better off just buying pods?

ender502

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Thanks for the insight, Pheonix.

Any time

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:
Because of the entangling and penetration roll Rhinos lost their luster?

That's the jist of it. In addition, if your transport moved in the movement phase and you disembark after that movement, the squad can not assault that turn. So in the end, the 3rd edition blood angles rhino rush is completely gone. Yay!

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:
Any thoughts on Vindicators in this lineup?.

That is another trick that worked really well in 3rd edition and not quite as much now, but it is possible. The tactics for it are somewhat similar. If you take 1 or more vindicators, you need to position them in the center of your rhino formation so that the enemy can't draw line of sight to them on the first turn. From there, just zoom them up with the rest of the formation in your first movement phase and allow the rhinos to take the hits for the vindicators. After that, roll up though the remains of the rhinos (I would splurge for dozer blades since getting immobilized while moveing though rhino wrecks would suck and going around them might require too much movement) and open up on the enemy. The first turn of shooting is going to be rather inaccurate, but after that, you should be good to go. The fact that vindicators don't have indirect fire any more means things can get a little clogged up with rhinos blocking your line of sight, but the ability to move and still fire the vindicator's cannon should go a fair way to helping that problem.

If you plan on using vindicators, I would keep your general tac squad and rhino load out the same as before. However, I would cut back or even completely eliminate the land speeders from the list in favor of more dreadnaughts. With the up close and personal pie plate dropping power of the vindicators, you don't need the additional close range support. On the other hand, without the predators, your long range fire power is going to be suffering. Not only that, but vindicators are not very good at dealing with enemy tanks. Remember that unless the pie plate hole is over the hull of enemy armor, the shot is at half strength (5) and if you moved that turn, you roll 2d6 take the highest for scatter.

ender502 wrote:While I think there is som eviability involved with a shooty razor army, we have to factor in escalation. Losing a turn of shooting (minimum) for the vehicles and 2 for the tac's lascannons is not a lot of fun.

What about 2 razors with 2 x plasma guns as a counter? But if you do that would you be better off just buying pods?

ender502

Valid point, however the idea is to create a Rhino army. This is not viable, and I dont mean in a minimaxer kind of way where anything less than cutting edge optimised is untennable. No, Rhino Rush isnt viable in friendly games either. The best you can hope for is a token tracked box for which you can try to make up inventive reasons to try and make it work. Such as transport for one unit in a static shooty army to grab an objective after shooting up most of what the enemy has. Still its clutching at straws.

"Hammered by Escalation" is a problem many armies share, and it hits Razorback lists too. But even so its still a plausible way of taking a mechanised marine army. Razorback armies even go to tourney, and while they are in little danger of winning they can hold their own.

The only other alternative is to have a Land Raider based list. Its no longer a rhino army unlike what a Razorback list can claim, but it can rush albeit with a limited number of vehicles. Land Raider armies require a bit of luck to make it accross the table, but with fewer squads you get more opportunity to trick out the ones you do have as melee specialists, and they can charge when they disembark, which promises echoes of 3.0 marines.

Very dishearting to hear. Is this why they dropped cost of rhino-chassised vehicles in DA codex? I can hope for point drop for rhinos in 5th, I guess.

What is timetable for the release of planetfall? I assume this is where the release of drop pods will happen...