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I've just joined but I'm slowly putting together my newest 40k army and I wanted some feedback on the list. Here's the basic idea. I'm looking into putting together a list which focuses almost exclusively on troops. In fact, I can't think of a single vehicle I am using. I wanted a strong footslogging core which would provide a vehicle for the 24" AP3 death zone that is the Thousand Sons. In addition (so I would have some mobility) I added raptors and chosen. This is the current incarnation.

HQ = Lord w/ MoT, Daemon Weapon, Wings - 165 pts

Elites = 9 Chosen w/ MoT, 4x Melta - 242 pts

Elites = 9 Chosen w/ MoT, 4x Melta - 242 pts

Troops = 8x Thousand Sons, Asp. Sorcerer w/ Doombolt 254

Troops = 8x Thousand Sons, Asp. Sorcerer w/ Doombolt 254

Fast Attack = 9x Raptors w/ 2x Melta, MoT 240 pts

Heavy Support = 5x Havocs w/ MoT, 4x HBs - 175 pts

Heavy Support = 5x Havocs w/ MoT, 4x HBs - 175 pts

Total = 1747 pts
Model Count = 55

The lord is intended to either drop in or start the game with the raptors. I went for a lot of meltas to offset the lack of ranged anti-tank power. I use the mass HBs for anti horde, while the rest of my army is focused with dealing with MEQ armies. Alternatively, I'm considering swapping one of the Havocs for 3x AC instead of 4x HB for some light anti-armor (while still mainting good volume of fire). I'm also trying to think where I might be able to fit in some termies. While I don't think they would be competitive in this list, I saw a few conversions of Thousand Sons Terminators and now I kind of want to give it a shot. Anyways, thoughts?


~Misc

lets see
I'm guessing since you went thought the pain of putting MoT on every thing you want a fairly Tzeench themed army.

I'm not sure why you didn't give the raptors a champion with a PW or PF, they aren't very good at shooting and without support they'll more than likely get mobbed and die. Drop doom bolt on your sorcerers and pick up bolt of change so you have some anti tank punch. For that matter unless your morally against obliterators I'd substitute each havoc squad with at least two. If you like the feel of havocs better. (maybe you modled 1k sons w/ lascannons) Then take five man squads with two LC's each. They cost the same as a two man oblith squad and have some ablative wounds.

As for your chosen I'm not sure what to say. I'm guessing you want to infiltrate them and use those meltas to pop some tanks or cook some terminators. Thats a tricky gambit that isn't allaws going to pay off. If they don't get blown away they'll get stuck in CC. If you take my advice from above then you'll be lacking on some anti troop firepower. Honestly that would best be handled by some emperors children. But I guess you don't want a mixed mark army. Either way I'd drop the chosen.

I'm really confused about you Lord? You gave him a 40 point gun (daemonweapon) and then gave him wings. If your going to take the MoT on an hq take a daemon prince, give him wings, give him warptime and a second power of your choosing.

If you like my advice do a search for Stelek's chaos list. it uses EC and tzeench, it's all footslogging and looks fun to play.

This list just can't deal with the new Ork Dex and for the most part won't be able to handle Zilla lists. With only 55 models and of those 55 8 are effective at over 12" I would say you need to get some more long range fire support. Consider dropping those chosen for something that will help support you 1k sons and havocs.

The list I use is fun, if a bit on the slow side.

Chaos is very very weak now, even against 'Battleforce' armies just slapped together.

You really need to focus your army so you have as many threats as possible out there.

You have virtually no real anti-tank in your army. At long range (think corner to corner fights) you will literally lose your whole army and accomplish nothing but a frustrating day.

My advice is this:

Always bring Demon Princes. The other HQ's are no good because power fists kill 'em. Abaddon and Kharne are exceptions--they are both very very dangerous.

Always bring Obliterators. First off, you can hide them, deep strike them, move and fire, use almost any weapon, and with a 2+/5+ they hold up against almost any shooting armies but those with 8+ lascannon shots or the equivalent a turn. Second, if you run anything else--you are just running a space marine heavy slot...and yours are worse than theirs! Go Chaos!

Always bring the 3 good dedicated troops. Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons, and Plague Marines. Find the ones you like, mix and match a pair of the above units into your army; don't be afraid to go above 10+ in any of those squads, don't bring transports bring more marines; and if it is just a regular squad with a mark leave it on the battlebarge. Mass terminators and mass raptors are the only real exceptions.

Just my opinion, but Chaos is really that bad.

Most people argue that obliths are the only way to go. However I notised that haocs have a redeeming quality.
2 lascannons and 3 other marines cost a little less than two obliths. they can't deep strike of move and fire but they have 3 extra wounds, and if you hide them in cover the inv save obliths get isn't an issue. also insta kill isn't as big a threat.

Drop the craptors and havocs (clearly not Tzeentchie) for terminators and obliterators (both tzeentchie enough).

Oblits are slow and purposeful and despite being banned from the original codex for TK's, they have imho more the feel of a TK army.

I'd take one prince with bolt of change and wings (possibly warptime, I forget if they can use two powers) as your HQ.

Chosen and havocs with whatever may be decent but they're certainly both inferior in mechanics and feel to Terminators and Oblits for a Tzeentch army.

gdurant:

2 lascannons and 3 other marines cost a little less than two obliths. they can't deep strike of move and fire but they have 3 extra wounds, and if you hide them in cover the inv save obliths get isn't an issue. also insta kill isn't as big a threat.

How do you figure that the Havocs have three extra wounds? Two Oblits have four wounds, five Havocs have five wounds. The Havocs are more survivable against ID, but that's a separate thing from having more wounds.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:gdurant:

2 lascannons and 3 other marines cost a little less than two obliths. they can't deep strike of move and fire but they have 3 extra wounds, and if you hide them in cover the inv save obliths get isn't an issue. also insta kill isn't as big a threat.

How do you figure that the Havocs have three extra wounds? Two Oblits have four wounds, five Havocs have five wounds. The Havocs are more survivable against ID, but that's a separate thing from having more wounds.

You are correct, I mis-spoke.

The list looks quite solid and is fluffy.
For effectivity, Havocs don't need MoT if deployed in hard cover. Autocannons are my weapon of choice for Havocs.

Thanks for all the replies guys.

As far as the Chosen go, I was just looking for more mobility in the army (with infiltrate) without having to get tanks. I can see terminators as a solid alternative here, because they can deepstrike and their improved invulnerable saves will mean they don't get mushed into paste before they get to do anything.

For the Oblits, the primary reason I didn't choose them is that they couldn't be marked. I'm not super-hardcore about all marked armies, but it just kind of felt right to take havocs instead. The problem I see with replacing the Havocs with Oblits is that I lose anti-horde. I could switch Oblits in, but then I'd want to keep Doombolt on my Asp. Sorcerers. Bolt of Change is great, but he has to use it on the same unit that the TS are shooting at, and I don't see where I'd want to waste 16 AP3 shots to pop a tank.

About the lord: The idea here was to have a hard as hell CC unit that would drop in and give the enemy something else to worry about while my shooty guys did the deed. I could drop the raptors and take him as a Daemon Prince instead, but I don't want him to be the only available target for lascannons (remember - no tanks). That's my concern with a Daemon Prince. With wings and the invulnerable save I guess I should just suck it up and take a DP. That's just basi cally my thoughts on paper about what people have said so far, I'll look into everyone's suggestions and do a re-draw of my list for you guys to look at sometime later today.

Thanks again,

~Misc

So here are my proposed changes:

HQ = Daemon Prince w/ wings, MoT, warptime, BoC = 200 pts

Elites = 10x Terminators w/ MoT, 2x AC, 1x LC(pair) + Champ w/ PF = 415 pts

Troops = 10x Thousand Sons w/ Doombolt = 277 pts

Troops = 10x Thousand Sons w/ Doombolt = 277 pts

Troops = 10x Thousand Sons w/ Doombolt = 277 pts

Heavy Support = 2x Obliterators = 150 pts

Heavy Support = 2x Obliterators = 150 pts

Total = 1736
Model Count = 45

So I dropped the havocs in favor of the more versatile obliterators. I' m not sure if 4 is enough here though. I added some bulk to my thousand sons squads and swapped the Chosen for a nasty Terminator unit. Finally I switched the lord with the DP. After looking into it this was the only really viable option. I plan to make more use of the Deep Strike mechanic than previously. 10 Termies dropping on someone's head will be enough to scare anyone. I'm starting to see why new chaos is kind of rough. I used to play Khorne in the old rules when Chaos was OP, now everything is so damn expensive you can't hardly take enough models to call it an army lol. Any more thoughts would be appreciated.


~Misc

@ MrMiscreant

Don't be so quick to change your chaos list. Chaos is not as weak as some say and it is still a very powerful list. Also you do not need to make it in one specific way for it to be powerful. There are many different combinations to take.

The basic CSM (chosen and Havoc also) have a distinct advantage over their loyalist cousins in the wargear they come with. Each CSM comes with a bolter, 2 attacks, frags and Krak grenade. This makes for a very versatile model which can shoot at 24", assault with 3 attacks and take on side armor at str 6 with grenades.

It is true heavy weapons are hard to come by and many people lament this. However they are lamenting they can not make chaos lists like they used to. The lists must be made differently then what they used to and many posters try and get people to make the chaos list like they used to make them, which makes them less powerful.

Play to the strengths.

Oblits are nice, but their usefullness is in anti-tank now. If you replace that with 10 meltaguns, then you don't need them.

Havocs are much better than Devastators. They cost the same, have the same weapons (even more if you take assault weapons) but chaos Havocs have 2 attacks each while Devastators have only one. If you are assaulted, you get twice as many attacks in has the loyalists do.

I like your list. If you want everything to have marks for fluff that is fine, but consider taking some squads to 8. I know the Tzzentch number is nine, but any benifit of that has been removed with this codex. Take 8 man Chosen and Raptors. This lets you add in 2 men each to your havoc squads. I would change one meltagun in each chosen squad to a flamer for versatility. Against horde lists you will infiltrate close to the enemy. You can shoot the horde unit with heavy bolters, shoot them with pistols, meltaguns and a flamer template and then assault them with 24 attacks. You can expect to kill 12 Orks from shooting and another 6 in assault. Not all of them can swing back in the kill zone and you consolidate in close formation to make sure another ork unit won't have any bases to move into assault to on the next turn.

You've got 2 units of chosen and 2 units of havocs so you can decimate 2 units of Horde. Then the Havocs just shoot any remaining Horde units not enegaged. At 1750pts I've usually only seen 3 units of 30 Orks in an army.

Don't dismiss the army you have right now. It looks pretty good. There are all sorts of extreme army lists that can be made in theory, but rarely ever seen in real life. Don't react to those theory lists. React to the metagame in your area.

MrMiscreant wrote:So here are my proposed changes:

HQ = Daemon Prince w/ wings, MoT, warptime, BoC = 200 pts

Elites = 10x Terminators w/ MoT, 2x AC, 1x LC(pair) + Champ w/ PF = 415 pts

Troops = 10x Thousand Sons w/ Doombolt = 277 pts

Troops = 10x Thousand Sons w/ Doombolt = 277 pts

Troops = 10x Thousand Sons w/ Doombolt = 277 pts

Heavy Support = 2x Obliterators = 150 pts

Heavy Support = 2x Obliterators = 150 pts

You see now this is a list that gets owned by marine safh and Eldar Lance armies. Oblits are wonderful until they get hit with Guard Lascannons, Dark Eldar Darklance brigades, Eldar falcons with simple pulse lasers, etc... Hell a deep striking satchel charge with 2 meltaguns is 80 some odd points and it can decimate 2 oblits. You lose those 4 Oblits and you have big trouble against tanks while you wait for the 10 Terminators to scatter 6-8 inches upon deep strike. Oh sure the Oblits can hide behind terrain on turn 1 and move out to shoot, to shoot what? The enemy vehicles can hide also until the oblits show up. Meanwhile the enemy heavy weapon teams are ripping shots into your thousand sons and Daemon Prince just waiting for the Oblits to show up. Your first list was better.

@ Darth

Thanks for the backup. After looking over your advice I think I will return to the Havocs. I do however think I'll drop the raptors in favor of some Terminators. I also want to keep with the switch of Lord to daemon Prince. I think at this point I'll run with what I got (the havocs) and then see if I need to change stuff for more long range anti-tank. The core of my army will stay the same. Big nasty flying lord, 2+ units of Thousand sons, 1+ Chosen for the forward presence. I'll play test the rest and see if I can tweak it towards competitiveness.

~misc

You can still make a decent army out of chaos. the problem it's hard to make a decent 1k sons or EC or korn army. The new dex is more about chaos warbands with mixed and matched units.

I know you don't like the idea of putting bolt of change in with your 1k sons, but against a mech army your just going to get crushed. When you don't have many models on the board it's important that the models you do have be versatile. And in my experience sometimes there aren't any conveniently placed marines around for you to shoot at.

Food for thought, you might trade in 5 terminators and pick up another daemon prince.

Or, if you want something completely different:
Bikers with MoT get a 2+ inv whenever they turbo boost. Plop a lord on a bike in with em. I had a friend who would do this, but he gave his lord a korn daemon weapon.

If you can take away the MOT in the Havoc squads and find a few points somewhere else (dropping units to 8 maybe) you can get a unit or two of lesser daemons to summon in off of the infiltrating Chosen.

10 Tzeentch termies is a tough nut to crack. That plus a demon prince gives you a CC rock with decent shooting that can hold the rest of your army together.

I don't think I would go with havocs over oblits, but to each their own. The second list you posted looks like a list that would win a lot of games.

It'll have a rough time vs. Guard or Dark Eldar, but when I see a Chaos army that will win against gunline Guard or Dark Eldar air force I'll let you know

The problem with ALL the units in the Chaos list except the ones noted below is, they have crap armor/aren't worth the points/aren't fearless.

DP, Oblits, Dedicated troops (not just a mark).

All that stuff darth is telling is technically true, but utterly useless on the tabletop. You can't make a mobile army out of Chaos without bringing Raptors. Since you aren't mobile, unless you are facing a assault army all those nifty features don't work.

And just to be completely truthful here, what assault armies CAN you take?

Harlequins? No.
Genestealers? No.
Wyches? No.

So you get junk troops that can beat off single assault units, but get obliterated by tank shock/assaults/shooting.

Does that seem good to you?

Eldar are not fearless. Should we not play them because they are not fearless? How about Guard? They are not fearless either. Being fearless is not the be all end all of life. Leadership 10 is nothing to sneeze at.

Obliterators are much easier to kill than havocs. Simple enough. There are more weapons that people take that can instant kill an obliterator. Since the Oblits lost the ability to shoot heavy bolters they have taken a hit against infantry based armies. Oh they are still good anti-tank weapon platforms, but if you have the taken care of in the list somehwere else, you don't need them.

His original list had a raptor squad and flying HQ. How much more mobility do you need? Shooting units, like Havocs work best when they stand still in cover and shoot, not move. He had 2 big infiltrating squads. Infiltrating does not mean 'to deploy in front of heavy weapons and die.' You can put two big units close to the enemy or closer to objectives or in another table quarter where they would need to be moved out of the way by the enemy. Which in my mind means the enemy has to come to them. Throw in a couple of daemon squads and now there are a lot of CC attacks the enemy has to deal with.

Mobility, as I see it, is the ability to get across the board. Any unit that can move and shoot has mobility. That would be terminators and Thousand sons. Both units can move every turn and not lose their shooting ability.

Genestealers, Harlequins, Wyches?? Try shooting them if you can, if not then sacrifice a small unit to be able to shoot them on the next turn.

I though all those Genestealer and Harlequin heavy armies would auto-lose to Ork horde lists. If than is the case why would you expect to see those two units deep in a tourney? Just let them lose in the early round and don't worry about facing them.

There is more than one way to skin a cat and there is more than one way to make a competitive chaos list.

LD10 is easily reduced to LD5.

What happens when there's no infiltrate?

I think with Chaos if you don't bring alot of Raptors, alot of Terminators, or Dedicated squads as your 'meat' of your army you are going to lose. That means 45+, 30+, and 35+ respectively.

Thousand Sons and Terminators are not mobile. 6" or less isn't mobile.

Chaos Demons are....man. I'm at a loss.

Genestealers autolose to orks? Did I say that? Don't remember saying that.

I don't think Harlequins will do very good against Orks, but they'll do better than fire dragons usually will unless there's a shortage of Orks on the tabletop. Or there's a sublist coming out in say 3 months that allows Harlequins in more than elites. lol

I agree with you about making competitive chaos lists. I think running Smurf-like lists without the benefits of Smurfiness is totally pointless. You want to run IKF units so they get +1 attacks in CC and a very dubious S6 attack with krak grenades...go right ahead. Might as well take the spikes off and rub out the Chaos icons, though.

MrMiscreant wrote:I've just joined but I'm slowly putting together my newest 40k army and I wanted some feedback on the list. Here's the basic idea. I'm looking into putting together a list which focuses almost exclusively on troops. In fact, I can't think of a single vehicle I am using. I wanted a strong footslogging core which would provide a vehicle for the 24" AP3 death zone that is the Thousand Sons. In addition (so I would have some mobility) I added raptors and chosen. This is the current incarnation.

I'm going to assume that you've already bought most of that army.

but if you haven't.. then it's not too late to switch to Tyranids and actually be able to win a game.

I'm just saying this as a friend. Because friends don't let friends play Nawtay Mareenz.

The first thing that you need to know is that a Thousand Sons army is a shooting army, and you will need to build your army with that in mind.

Your first list had a few problems. You had no counter-assault, and no anti-tank.

Melta guns start to far away from any tank even with infiltrate to really have a shot at killing a vehicle.

Thousand Sons while durable can’t beat their way out of a wet paper bag.

So to increase anti-tank I would:
#1. The havocs are fine, but I would recommend more models in the squad. You want at least 6+. When you have 5, after the fist one dies, you are removing 30 point models. I would also recommend a modified “Toledo Pattern” for their weapons. That is 2 Heavy Bolters+2 Autocannons. You only lose 2 shots, but you gain a lot of versatility. You can then shot at TMCs, light vehicles, skimmers etc.

#2. Think about Missile Launcher havocs. They are just a few points more than Heavy Bolters, and they are good against Vehicles, Marines, and Hordes, etc.

#3. I would take at least one squad of Oblits.

Counter assault:
Thousand Sons only have a few good options there. Since you should be shooting, that means Terminators and HQ.

I would think about a Sorcerer on a Disk with Warptime and Doombolt. That means you can cast warp times and re-roll you doombolt shots, and re-roll your 6 attacks on the charge.

Terminators are OK because they will add some anti-tank if you give them autocannons. But since there is some debate as to them shooting from 12-24 they are a bit less effective.

Stelek wrote:And just to be completely truthful here, what assault armies CAN you take?

Harlequins? No.
Genestealers? No.
Wyches? No.

The odd thing is that you listed the armies that they can take.

Thousand Sons have a lot of problems killing armies with 3+ save because they have so few attacks. But with a 3+/4+ save, they suffer few casualties from those units you listed, and can kill them in return.

Also a shooting army will kill a lot of them on the way in.

Are you being serious?

TS can't beat those armies in close combat.

They can't beat IG in close combat for goodness sake!

Now you're just being silly. 3+/4+ means they stand up to anything you can throw at them in assault, and the Force Weapon works just fine as a substitute PF (swinging at initiative, no less) most of the time.

I mean, they're not Genestealers, but they're hardly Tau, either.

A 10 man Thousand Sons squad can beat a 6-clown Harlequin squad in assault.

Hard to say what will happen in a game. There are so many variables. Like how much will the unit get shot up coming in?

Wytchs with their 4+ inv save and Thousand Sons with there 3+/4+ will be in combat forever.

Woah wait a minute--I'm not being silly.

They're a tactical squad with a power weapon.

When the hell did that get good in assault?

Is 5th edition out? Man, fast year...it's 2009 already?? (Now I'm being silly!)

Assault marines beat the everliving crap out of thousand sons. Harlies, Stealers, and Wyches....oh boy is it embarressing.

The Thousand Sons squads are being used in a shooting army, they are not being used to cross the table and assault units.

With their durability means that Thousand Sons can withstand the onslaught from assault specialists enough to protect your soft and squishy units. Or at least to hold them up long enough to be hit by your counter assault units.

Guys, they are still just T4 marines. With 1 attack each.

You don't need to use mass power weapons on them, just put wounds in. They fail their 3+ save like every other tactical marine squad.

Honestly, it's very difficult to run 10 man Thousand Sons squads. They're ungainly as hell to move around, and trying to get all your shots in makes you bunch up. 4+ invulnerable or not, that's bad against template weapons...and being spread out is bad since assaulters will crush part of your unit.

I don't run 2 units of EC and 2 assault DP for nothing with my Thousand Sons. Those guys suck in CC.

Nurgle marines on the other hand...boy are they nutters in close combat.

Do the math on TKs vs. Plague marines against Harlequins and then do everyone a favor and stop making gak up.

Harlequins charging plague marines kill 4 with rends, 12 normal hits, 4 wounds, 1.33 unsaved, .66 not fnp --> so 4.66 dead before combat starts.

Harlequins charge Tzeentch, kill 2 from rends, 1.33 unsaved -> 3.33 dead before combat starts


Sure the Tzeentchies have a couple fewer attacks, but the Tzeentch squad can stay scoring for two rounds and the Plague marines can't. That wins games.