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Can YOU do everyone a favor and leave the personal insults at the door? Thanks!

Now to debunk the theoryhammer:

Have you played Chaos much lately?

Running large Tzeentch squads is not wise.

Running large Plague Marine squads is.

I know you're a huge fan of 'Harlequins own everything in the game because my dice always roll statistical odds' but sadly that isn't the case when you actually play the game.

Small (6-9) Tzeentch squads are common, they give the most bang for the buck. 15 man squads don't, the units too unwieldy.

Small plague marine squads (6-9) are also common, but aren't a good bang for the buck--and for once, we can agree on why. Power weapons hurt them in such small numbers. So, you run Plague Marine squads in large numbers. 14-16 strong. Harlequins don't do well against such squads, ESPECIALLY in the configuration you and everyone else that plays Harlequins seem to play the Eldar army in; where you have 3 Pulse Lasers on 3 Falcons and everything else bounces off of Plague Marines so when those weapons are destroyed you have to send the Harlies in. They won't do very well against a large Plague marine squad set to receive their charge.

Please redo your math, I think you are including the charge bonus in your calculations, and that's illegal.

Again, running theoryhammer in a void is always bad.

Play games with good lists vs good opponents. I know my Eldar have a hell of a time with Nurgle and those armies I've seen with Harlies seem to be worse off.

Yes, but since no one's running 15 Thousand Sons in this list, that criticism is void. Running larger TS squads is probably actually better, since you don't have to buy as many Sorcerors.

The only CC this unit really fears is Harlequins, Terminators, and Assault Squads with a chap. Horde squads will be thinned out well before they get to the lines, as will Genestealers.

The list loses to Mech Eldar and (a well-played) Mech Tau. So does pretty much everything else unless you bring a dozen anti-tank weapons.

Finally,

Stelek wrote:I know you're a huge fan of 'Harlequins own everything in the game because my dice always roll statistical odds' but sadly that isn't the case when you actually play the game.

You don't appear to understand math. Aside from that, stats are really the only objective metric we have. If you have another, I'd be glad to hear about it, but as it stands you're just wrong, dude. Straight-up.

Really? Explain how thousand Sons units people actually play, live vs Harlies while plague marines get evaporated.

I really look forward to seeing the math. Hopefully with more illegal attacks vs the plague marines for the win @ pretend math.

Real math is konfoosing. That degree I got in CS, man I knew it was a worthless piece of paper!

Can YOU do everyone a favor and leave the personal insults at the door? Thanks!

OK…I will try ;(

Now to debunk the theoryhammer:

I will then debunk your debunking of the theoryhammer.

Have you played Chaos much lately?

Yes I have, and you?

Running large Tzeentch squads is not wise.

I disagree. When you are paying 60 points+psychic powers for the Sorcerer(Aspiring champion) small squads are not very cost effective. Especially when they die as easy as regular marines to bolter fire. Large squads are the way to go!

Running large Plague Marine squads is.

That is odd, you seem to contradict yourself. Didn’t you say:

Stelek wrote:Honestly, it's very difficult to run 10 man Thousand Sons squads. They're ungainly as hell to move around, and trying to get all your shots in makes you bunch up. 4+ invulnerable or not, that's bad against template weapons...and being spread out is bad since assaulters will crush part of your unit.

If that is true for Thousand Sons Squads, that goes double for Plague Marines. They fact that ordinance weapons will drop Plague Marines like crazy since they do not get their 3+ save, and FNP. But the Thousand sons still get their 4+ inv save making them twice as survivable.

You need large squads of Sons so their AP 3 bolters have the most effect, and you don’t have to play for a sorcerer again.

I know you're a huge fan of 'Harlequins own everything in the game because my dice always roll statistical odds' but sadly that isn't the case when you actually play the game.

Not really. My Harlequins always bounce off of units. I have trouble rolling “6”s. But taking a statistical average is a good point to start a discussion. If you can’t use that data, then what are you basing your ideas on? What you “think” might happen, or what you guess might? I think that is the George Bush theory of statistics…screw what everyone is telling you, go with your gut!

Small (6-9) Tzeentch squads are common, they give the most bang for the buck. 15 man squads don't, the units too unwieldy.

I don’t think so. Again, see above about the Sorcerer costs.

Small plague marine squads (6-9) are also common, but aren't a good bang for the buck--and for once, we can agree on why. Power weapons hurt them in such small numbers. So, you run Plague Marine squads in large numbers. 14-16 strong. Harlequins don't do well against such squads, ESPECIALLY in the configuration you and everyone else that plays Harlequins seem to play the Eldar army in;

Not sure what you are saying here, but the effective range of a Plague Maine squad is within 12”. A Thousand Sons squad is 24”. They can be effective in large squads, and a large squad of Thousand Sons will put a hurting on Harlequins.

where you have 3 Pulse Lasers on 3 Falcons and everything else bounces off of Plague Marines so when those weapons are destroyed you have to send the Harlies in. They won't do very well against a large Plague marine squad set to receive their charge.

Not sure how you run your Falcons, but I like the Star Cannon. So where Plague Marines get no save against the Pulse Laser, they only get a 4+ FNP save against the Star Cannon. Against the Shriken Cannon the Plague Marines do better. But the Thousand Sons get a 4+ inv save against the Pulse Laser, and a 4+ Inv save against the Starcannons. So Thousand Sons are much more durable against Falcons.

Please redo your math, I think you are including the charge bonus in your calculations, and that's illegal.

I was doing the math as if the Harlequins get the charge and so was Longshot. That will almost always be the case under game conditions because the Harlequins will be assaulting out of Falcons.

Again, running theoryhammer in a void is always bad.

Aren’t your ideas about Thousand Sons all Theoryhammer? So we should not have any ideas or tactics because it is just all theory?

Play games with good lists vs good opponents. I know my Eldar have a hell of a time with Nurgle and those armies I've seen with Harlies seem to be worse off.

Everyone has a hard time with Nurgle these days. Harlequins will struggle against both marked units.

Oh, and Emperor’s Children suck.

Ok to cut down on the thread spammyness:

Large TS units are very hard to get all your shots with if you go over 9. Unless there's no terrain on the board, then by all means Fantasy it up and bust out the chariots while yer at it.

Large PM squads could care less about shooting at you, they are there to get shot at. Spreading them out smartly means ordnance templates aren't exactly scary--and if you are using Vindicators, why haven't they been killed by the Oblits? Basilisks are an issue, but many of the guard armies I see bring just 1 bassy, and you can lose 1-2 guys a turn from it.

Why you and Longshot keep giving Harlequins charge bonuses against Plague Marines is beyond me. It's ILLEGAL. Redo the math, and Harlequins are suddenly very very crappy. Add in the plague marine squads should be 14-16 strong, and hopefully you'll see.

I actually run thousand sons, so no it isn't theoryhammer.

I don't think much of the starcannon on Falcons vs Nurgle Marines. 2 shots, hit on 4+, wound on 3+, save on 4+, if they are in terrain change to the X+ cover then FNP?

Come on man. Everyone's talking to me about math today, but I've seen these units in action repeatedly.

Oh and I've found given the Chaos lists problem with tanks, having 3-4 sorcerors is better than 2.

Going heavy anti-infantry isn't very useful when there are 10 skimmers on the board. Killing skimmers with the S8 shot is better than nothing, IMO.

Yes, EC do suck. They are useful in a TS army though.

Stelek wrote:Really? Explain how thousand Sons units people actually play, live vs Harlies while plague marines get evaporated.

I don't have the statline for Harlequins at hand. Regardless, Thousand Sons units live because they get a 4+ invulnerable, which is better than FNP against Harlequins due to rending. FNP doesn't grant a save against Rending, a 4+inv does. The Thousand Sons are therefore more durable, giving them more time to either get another unit to help them out or to fight their way out themselves. Six harlequins are not all that durable, as you yourself have argued on several occaisions. When half your rending hits do nothing the unit is roughly 10% less effective.

Real math is konfoosing. That degree I got in CS, man I knew it was a worthless piece of paper!

I know an awful lot of CS majors who can't do math to save their lives. Nice appeal to authority, though.

Well I know what you said, so again I'm not sure how your experience is so much different from mine.

Do you see 15 man plague marine units melt away?

I haven't seen them fold against anything but Slaanesh LC terminators.

We are not debating the viability of Thousand Sons vs. Plague Marines (which can be argued). It is irrelevant.

The original poster wants to make a good Thousand Sons army.

Well 3 TS, 2 EC, 6 oblits, and 2 DP. Works really well for me. It's posted in the army lists forum.

That is certainly an army you would take.

But the original poster wants to do an army without the taint of the other Marks. You should work within the fluff and comp that they are comfortable with.

MrMiscreant, I had a similar idea to what you have when I was trying to make a pre-heresy army. You should take a look at it:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/206173.page

It is not hardest list (on purpose) I could make by a long shot. If I was to make it better, you can change the Predator to some Oblits, and the Dreadnought for another chose las/plas squad, and Ahriman for a couple of Demon Princes.

Stelek wrote:Can YOU do everyone a favor and leave the personal insults at the door? Thanks!

I figured I would do that latin thing where I ignore the rest of your comments and focus on this one for my rebuttal.

Show me where I personally insulted you, please. I insulted the ridiculous unfounded made up statistics and value judgments you always seem to present as fact.

Stop making stuff up and I'll stop calling you out on making stuff up.

At the very worst, Harlies kill as many plaguemarines as they kill thousand sons. Saying TK's are inferior in resilience is unfounded.

And Emperor's Children are terrible.

Longshot wrote:
At the very worst, Harlies kill as many plaguemarines as they kill thousand sons. Saying TK's are inferior in resilience is unfounded.

No its not, it more a question of context. On the charge TS are inferior in resilience, not by much, but they are. If you want to include point for point comparison then they are even less resilient- that sorceror cost the same as 3 plague marines for no extra resilience.

6 harlies charging TS - 24 attacks killing an expected 4 TS
6 harlies charging PM - 18 attacks killing an expected 3 PM

PM could also have 2 extra bodies due to sorcerors cost , although that may well have been spent on plasma or other upgrades. Then there is the difference in counter attack, PM have more attacks so can kill more harlies reducing further casualties in subsequent rounds. Further increasing their resilience over more than 1 round.

At 'worst' Harlies definatly kill more TS than PM, simply due to getting more attacks.

Insults are in the eye of the beholder.

You called me a liar, when your own math was utter nonsense.

Figured out why Harlies suck against PM, and why TS suck in CC yet?

Shouldn't need advanced math to figure it out.

Stelek wrote:
And just to be completely truthful here, what assault armies CAN you take?

Harlequins? No.
Genestealers? No.
Wyches? No.

The question was never what unit is better against Harlequins, Plague Marines or Thousand Sons?

The question is whether or not Thousand Sons can stand up tp an assault.

Somebody made the comment that Thousand Sons can't beat Harlequins, and we tried to prove them wrong.

The fact that Plague Marines are better in assault is irrelevant, since they both have different rolls and synergy.

Well, this thread got more contentious than is necessary. Upon original reading, I didn't understand Stelek's "illegal" comment about the stats Longshot posted. I kept thinking, "how can stats be illegal?" Huh?


I also had forgotten that Blight Grenades negate the harlies attack on the charge, changing the numbers.

However, this probably could have been pointed out more cordially. Kill them with Kindness, I always say.

Did I mention that I named my lascannons 'Kindness'

1K sons in general are not a solid choice but they are a good static unit if you build your army around them.

Having a good fire base made up of 1K son, Oblits, and possibly Regular Naughty Marines will be a nice start. Add in 2 solid counter charge units (in your case Raptors or Terminators) and you got your self a nice army.

Having the DP support your counter charge efforts is a good idea. I also like having a unit of bikers in there for going after and tieing up your oppoents fire base.

Stelek wrote:Well I know what you said, so again I'm not sure how your experience is so much different from mine.

Do you see 15 man plague marine units melt away?

I haven't seen them fold against anything but Slaanesh LC terminators.

I am confused. Since the PM's are initiative 3, wouldn't any marked (or unmarked) LC Chaos Terminator squad run through the PM's? Wouldn't Khorne Marked LC Termies do it the quickest?

Without the bonus attacks from charging they will have a slight advantage over most other infantry units. Say for example PMs being charge by an Ork Mob. that entire Ork mob will be at 1 Less attack than it should be and that could be up to 30 attacks that they would loose and still strike at the same time as the PMs.

In general I think in the first round of any combat PMs have the advantage over other infantry after that it is a toss up between 1K sons and PMs for staying power. It all depends on how many power weapons the opponent has. Less power weapons will be in favor of the PMs more would be in favor of the 1K son. Same goes for Rending attacks.

While I appreciate everyone's interest in my thread, lol, I am looking for a 1ksons army, and I have NO intention whatsoever of taking EC or PMs. To clarify the mystery a bit, I NEVER PLAY HARLEQUINS. There are 2 Eldar players in my area that I can think of, and neither play harlequins OR the flying army of doom. So while the crazy amount of theoryhammering going on here is an interesting read, it really is of no import. I also rarely take on heavy vehicle armies (my brother's space marines excluded). So with that in mind I have decided to take a mix of everyone's suggestions and ( I don't have the book right now - but I'm pretty sure my points are right) this is what I think I'm going to run.

HQ - Daemon Prince w/ wings, warptime, bolt of change, MoT - 200

Elites - 10 Terminators w/ 2x AC, 2x LC, Champ w/ PF, CM, MoT - 420

Elites - 9 Chosen, 4 meltas - 202

Troops - 9 1ksons w/ Doombolt - 254

Troops - 9 1ksons w/ doombolt - 254

Heavy Support - 9 Havocs w/ 2x HB, 2x AC - 205

Heavy Support - 9 Havocs w/ 2x LC - 205

1750 on the nose
back up to 56 models
I took the mark off the havocs and chosen. I decided that although fluffy, keeping the mark would cost me ablative wounds and increase the PPM cost in the unit by a lot.
I might at some point drop the wingy DP for something else, as I'm worried that since he is a MC and the only viable LC target, he will be sucking a lot of those
I think this is starting to look a lot better. Thanks for everyone's advice.

~Misc

Running Bolt of Change in your TS squads will help your AT ability immensely.

Stelek wrote:Running Bolt of Change in your TS squads will help your AT ability immensely.

But often is a temptation to waste the inferno bolters so the sorcerer can possibly tzap a tank. Recently switched my 1k Son sorcerer down to doombolt from bolt of change and am very happy, much more effective at shooting what the squad should be shooting. Also, 15 less points I give up when the squad dies, which happens no later than Turn 2 in every single game

Just like to stand up for the deathscreamer, been running a lord with one for the last several games and loving it. The '1' certainly sucks, but the ability to reach out and touch the enemy with my HQ is awesome, and not needing to roll a psychic test is 100% great, particularly against farseers, librarians, my own dice, etc. That said S4 in combat bites, and I'd give a lot to get my spiky bit reroll back

- Salvage

Stelek wrote:Insults are in the eye of the beholder.

You called me a liar, when your own math was utter nonsense.

Figured out why Harlies suck against PM, and why TS suck in CC yet?

Shouldn't need advanced math to figure it out.

Woops. I was wrong about Plague marines, my apologies.

Doesn't change the fact that you make stuff up on a regular basis. It isn't about being an outright liar so much as that you have a tendency to speak through the top of your hat even more than I do, and flat out give people bad advice in the process.

Telling people to take plague marines or EC (who are HORRIBLE) in a thousands son army because TK can't stand up to assault is the making crap up I was referring to.

puree wrote:
No its not, it more a question of context. On the charge TS are inferior in resilience, not by much, but they are. If you want to include point for point comparison then they are even less resilient- that sorceror cost the same as 3 plague marines for no extra resilience.

6 harlies charging TS - 24 attacks killing an expected 4 TS
6 harlies charging PM - 18 attacks killing an expected 3 PM

PM could also have 2 extra bodies due to sorcerors cost , although that may well have been spent on plasma or other upgrades. Then there is the difference in counter attack, PM have more attacks so can kill more harlies reducing further casualties in subsequent rounds. Further increasing their resilience over more than 1 round.

At 'worst' Harlies definatly kill more TS than PM, simply due to getting more attacks.

This is of course correct. I had forgotten about plague grenades or whatever.

However, the PM will almost always have a PF champion so I wouldn't include the sorcerer in the consideration here. What we do show is that TK's are not all that much less resilient than PM's, and they fit in a thousand sons army and provide massive amounts more offensive firepower.