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So 5th edition rumors are flying. For the most part I'm remaining skeptical of peoples claims but one seems to be consistent.

Forced March.

So my question is this. Will forced marched bring back the CC Carnifex, marching waithlords and avatars?

The only rumor thread I've read says:

"running can be done w/in 12" of an enemy, you just can't charge if you run"

But all the discussion I've seen treats it as though it says "infantry can run 12" any turn, but can't shoot or assault if they do"

What does the w/in 12" of an enemy part mean?

What does the w/in 12" of an enemy part mean?

It's probably a reference to WHFB where you can't march if you're close to a enemy.

As to the actual topic, It's way too early to tell. But I sincerely hope that MCs will be ablr to march. Like the Avatar/Eldrad combo needs no be better though.

-Leo337

Oooh, hadn't thought about the advantages for the Eldratar. Yes, this edition will see Guardian hordes returning for sure.

Welcome back to 3rd edition!

Marching Avatars, yes. And power to them. Marching Carnis, maybe. Carnis can't fleet and assault yet altho that will probably get taken care of in the next nid book if defilers get it.

You will definitely see marching Carnifexes, but more as a means of getting them into their 18" range and also keeping up with the Gaunts/Stealers.

If what I hear about the new target priority rules is true (and what I hear is utterly awful), all you'll have to do is keep the Fexes out in front, and they'll soak fire for the Gaunts. This means Dakkafexes will remain as good as they always were, but now will be even better at keeping up with assault bugs, and even better at screening.

"Screamer Killer" style Talonfexes will still not be worth taking, since the march rule won't let them move, fleet and assault. They can still be avoided if the defending player desires. They'll certainly be better, since they can close the space better, but the Dakkafex is also better and thus remains the superior choice.

Also, if another rumor I hear is true, wounds will have to be allocated evenly, meaning that weapons that do a huge volume of wounds (like T-L Devourers), will have a good potential to kill off heavy weapons, Fists, etc.

As always, I take the rumors with a grain of salt, but virtually everything I've heard has suggested that Godzilla is about to go from a very strong list to the absolute best list.

In the .pdf going around everything that moves like infantry can run instead of shooting. That includes Dreadnoughts. It's like Fleet is now, but units that run cannot shoot or assault. Fleet units that run can assault, but they still can't shoot.

A running Carnifex may, it follows, move 12" a turn. Equally it may move 7". Certainly not as reliable or useful as moving up slowly and steadily while shooting back, but handy in a pinch and at least gives the player another tactical option.

Incidentally, could someone tell me what people usually mean by "Dakkafex"? I think it means a Carnifex armed with two pairs of twin-linked Devourers, but I'm a little unsure because I can't see how this configuration could be preferred.

The pdf floating around allows all units to move a D6" instead of shooting. The restriction to only 'units that move as infantry' was a rumor that didn't pan out.

Expect 'running' carnies, jetbikes, and landraiders.

Dakkafex is indeed a Carnifex with BS3 and 2 TL-Devourers. It is very common for utilizing the shock troops rule and filling out the elites with 113 point Dakkafexi.

The term "like" in English, as in 'everything that moves like infantry', is a simile, a term that indicates a figure of speech in which two unlike things are compared.

That said, non-Walker vehicles cannot run, if the .pdf is any indication. The section on Walker vehicles emphasizes that moving like infantry allows Walkers to run.

I thought that was what a Dakkafex is. Looks like victory points on a platter.

I'll concede that the Run rule is probably a section meant for non-vehicle units, particularly since vehicle units get their own movement section. However an extra bit of wording in the Walkers section doesn't really invalidate the exact wording of the current 'Run' rule which is for 'Units' which includes vehicles.

Off topic, are you related to Stelek by any chance?

I'm extra-ordinarily offended by the suggestion that I may be related to Stelek.

But back on topic. One of the odd things about Warhammer 40k, at least the editions that have been produced, is that the basic rules cover infantry, onto which rules covering non-infantry are added. Stuff can either deviate from these rules, like Jump Infantry, or it can be like playing a different game entirely, like Vehicles. Bikes can turbo-boost, so that makes moving 18" and then an extra D6" pointless.

Right now it looks like running is restricted to stuff with legs, so Carnificies, Wraithlords, Avatars, etc.

It'll all come to naught if Venom cannons can't kill vehicles anymore (as per the new glancing rules).

Further reading and I've found a few units that are specifically prohibited from Run, so far being Bikes, jetbikes by association with the bike rules, artillery, and vehicles. So point conceded as it is rather clearly addressed in the vehicles shooting section.

Coincidentally this neatly addresses the Fleeting farseer on a jetbike. As fleet is now just a 'Run' that can assault, and jetbikes can't run. Done!

I'm so going to model a Wraithlord hurdling something if this is true. I hope there are plenty of tiptoe-running Carnifi around too.

This is completely ridiculous. Goodbye game balance for at least a year or two.

How is it "Good Bye Game Balance?"

Before, what was "supposed" to be a CC Machine in the Fluff, the Carnifex has since been relegated to a highly efficient Gun Platform.

Now you're going to see monstrous creatures that want to be in assault not be completely worthless, and the other player still has a turn to react to the impending charge. What more do you want?

What more do you want?

6th edition of 40K. Stop being such a fanboy. We've discussed the numerous failings of the rumoured rules in other threads.

Will forced marched bring back the CC Carnifex, marching waithlords and avatars?

Crap doesn't turn into gold when you give it the option to run. All of the units you mentioned are unusable either because of the KP system or because other units in their force organisation slot are still vastly superior.

@Nurglitch: As said previously the Dakkafex is indeed a Carnifex with 2 sets of devourers, and typically with enhanced senses. It is far from a point gimmie and is quite effective in the shooting department. My first few opponents often laughed at the combo, until they started shooting, then the laughter stopped.

On topic, I agree with Terminizzle, I haven't found the circulating PDF, but most of the rumors seem to suggest infantry being able to make the run, not TMC's or other MC's et all.

Also, Longshot made a point which the longevity of the zilla army will depend upon the Venon Cannon and whether or not it'll be able to take out enemy armor. As it stand with the rumors, the venon cannon got nerfed as the primary AT weapon of the tyranid arsenal.

Plus if they can make a march move and the cannons suck, I am not happy about buying 4 more carnifex kits to make the army move in line with the new edition.

my 2 cents,
Chappy P!

Therion wrote:
Crap doesn't turn into gold when you give it the option to run. All of the units you mentioned are unusable either because of the KP system or because other units in their force organisation slot are still vastly superior.

Crap does get a little more enticing when you give it run, take one swing away from every powerfist, make it immune to force weapons (tyranids), reduce the effectiveness of rending, increase the brutality of assault, and bump all normal cover up to 4+.

Still, none of these are any good at tackling a 30 strong squad of boyz with a Klaw, but that's like trying to hammer a nail with a screwdriver anyways. And yes, the missions are changing and troops are more valuable in the sense of completing mission objectives. We know you don't like it, as you said: That has been covered in other threads.

The CC elite fex is not so much better than a Dakkafex at assault that I would want to give up the 8 twinlinked S6 shots that reroll failed wound rolls.

The only thing, and I mean the only thing, in the new rules that Tyranids care about much is whether VC/BS remains a viable antitank option. if it doesn't, Tyranids are officially frigging useless and Necrons become the best army in the game.

Therion wrote:

What more do you want?

6th edition of 40K. Stop being such a fanboy. We've discussed the numerous failings of the rumoured rules in other threads.

The comment is in response to someone thinking that CC Fex's being able to run is going to break the game. Not something for you to take out of context to go on another rant about how you don't like 5th ed.

You have gone on about what you don't like in the rumored rules. Apparently when the most broken top tier army stops being the Eldar list that you got Pro Painted, it's a problem. I'm so sorry that the new rules completely change what is over powered and broken, and your top tier lists stop being top tier. When your army is built to take only the most over powered and cost effective units you can take and nothing else, what do you EXPECT to happen when they change the rules?

Will forced marched bring back the CC Carnifex, marching waithlords and avatars?

Crap doesn't turn into gold when you give it the option to run. All of the units you mentioned are unusable either because of the KP system or because other units in their force organisation slot are still vastly superior.

It won't be broken, but at least those units will be more usable in the new edition than they are now. If you want absolute cheese, then no, those things aren't going to be it. But they sure will be a lot better in 5th than they are in 4th, and some people want to use those units while having a chance for them not to suck.

Apparently when the most broken top tier army stops being the Eldar list that you got Pro Painted, it's a problem.

That's not a problem at all. I can always get more models to add into my army. It's just unfortunate for Eldar that there's nothing to change to since everything else in the codex is such unbelievable crap that it makes me sick. Now, I don't have a problem with playing a different army either, it's just that the new rules are so bent and broken that there won't be any interesting armies to switch to. That's a problem.

if you want absolute cheese, then no, those things aren't going to be it. But they sure will be a lot better in 5th than they are in 4th, and some people want to use those units while having a chance for them not to suck.

No they won't be any better. Everything learns to run, not just Screamer-Killers. They will still suck and will be far from 'absolute cheese'. Absolute cheese is what we like to call 'Ork Boyz'.

Longshot wrote:The CC elite fex is not so much better than a Dakkafex at assault that I would want to give up the 8 twinlinked S6 shots that reroll failed wound rolls.

The only thing, and I mean the only thing, in the new rules that Tyranids care about much is whether VC/BS remains a viable antitank option. if it doesn't, Tyranids are officially frigging useless and Necrons become the best army in the game.

Necrons are getting kicked in the junk man. I mean sure they can glance like crazy, but that's *never* going to kill a tank now, same problem as the poor VC. However at the same time, when necrons lose in CC, they aren't going to be testing on a Ld10 anymore and can be run down even with the kill zone wiped. Necrons went down a couple of notches.

Tri monolith necrons, maybe...

Chaplain Pallantide: People in my gaming group tried this 'Dakkafex' configuration out. We called it the "Tyrannosaurus Fex" because the devourers were so ridiculously small on it. It's tendency to get shot to little bits before it stumbled into range or beaten up in close combat meant that it was discarded in favour of more traditional configurations.

Therion: So basically the problem is that you don't know how to use the units in the rest of Codex: Eldar? I mean obviously you're an expert and a mentat who can compute the effectiveness of troops in a codex merely be the power of his mind, but how are we to tell?

I can agree to some extent with Therion.

There were a lot of people out there (no names) who cried and gnashed their teeth about the cheese that the eldar codex was. I'm not saying there weren't things needing fixed - GW stuff - really?

However I can see the swing going the other way now with these rumours and the same people who were crying and gnashing their teeth now seem to be oblivious to the fact that other players are going to end up the same as they used to be (a sub standard codex).

Remember folks we all play the same game and are part of the same community.

Theres no point thinking the games going to be all rosy because your codex is sorted all of a sudden.

No offence intended.

Cheers

Hard to say if C:Eldar will be substandard or not. Trifalcon harlie/dragon will have a few counters, so you wont be able to just default to it. Who knows, perhaps the breadth of units available will make Eldar the army of choice for making lists that can balance between winning vs. MEQ/Armorwall/and Horde. Since those 3 will be sort of rock/paper/scissors against one another.

Maybe some of those running T8 MCs with fortune will help? (How's that for staying on topic!)

Therion wrote:

Apparently when the most broken top tier army stops being the Eldar list that you got Pro Painted, it's a problem.

That's not a problem at all. I can always get more models to add into my army. It's just unfortunate for Eldar that there's nothing to change to since everything else in the codex is such unbelievable crap that it makes me sick. Now, I don't have a problem with playing a different army either, it's just that the new rules are so bent and broken that there won't be any interesting armies to switch to. That's a problem.

You've got nothing to adapt to?

Holofield Tanks are plenty survivable still, just not as stupidly good. Can't handle hordes? Switch to Fire Prisms with Blasts. The new rules make it very easy to eliminate Lootas with a large blast. You can then safely ignore most of the "fire power" that exists in the Troops slots.

Use Jetbikes to get objectives, pathfinders to claim your own. Hell, even Dire Avengers are going to face less firepower coming their way now, and with improved cover saves start to look better. There's still Eldrad + Avatar to run around with, which despite being worth more KP, are still amazingly hard to kill.

Other people find ways to run Eldar and win, given the new rules I can think of a few things that will do just fine with them. They just won't be as broken as they are now, but they certainly won't be the worst codex out there.

And if you don't like the other "top tier" armies to switch to, then do as you say and just stop playing. Some people find most "top tier lists" boring.

Therion wrote:

if you want absolute cheese, then no, those things aren't going to be it. But they sure will be a lot better in 5th than they are in 4th, and some people want to use those units while having a chance for them not to suck.

No they won't be any better. Everything learns to run, not just Screamer-Killers. They will still suck and will be far from 'absolute cheese'. Absolute cheese is what we like to call 'Ork Boyz'.

So what if everything runs. There are two categories of units against the screamer killer: Ones that don't mind being in combat with it, or ones that do. Typically the ones that don't want to be in combat with a CC Fex are shooty in nature. If they "Run" to get away, then they're not shooting.

My point in the thread was that "they're better than they are now" and that "they're not going to be overpowered". That's pretty much all I've said.

And yes, new Orks can be absolutely broken. They'll still have their foils, easily. Guard and Tau will probably be a bitch for most Ork players, as will other army builds tailored to take them out.

Back to monstermarching: YAY, I will pack out my Godfex with (you've read it right) crushing claws! So what if its a point sink, it can now at least come somewhere near the enemy lines. 19" Movement in two turn ain't bad. And even if it's not getting to assault, you have to run away (literally here) to get out of the 12" danger zone of being assaulted.
That's nice enough for me.

And FYI, the leaked pdf says that units (no indication of type) can run instead of shooting. I worry about jump pakers who will be very fast now. On the other hand, they can't assault after running airstrike...well...

Greets
Schepp himself

You guys worry too much. Play some games with the new rules already.

Melee Fexes aren't horrible anymore, but mobile armies still make you cry and shooty armies still kill them.

The VC doesn't get to blow stuff up, but stuff remains unable to shoot. I'm hoping the -2 gets changed to a -1.

Schepp himself wrote:Back to monstermarching: YAY, I will pack out my Godfex with (you've read it right) crushing claws! So what if its a point sink, it can now at least come somewhere near the enemy lines. 19" Movement in two turn ain't bad. And even if it's not getting to assault, you have to run away (literally here) to get out of the 12" danger zone of being assaulted.
That's nice enough for me.

And FYI, the leaked pdf says that units (no indication of type) can run instead of shooting. I worry about jump pakers who will be very fast now. On the other hand, they can't assault after running airstrike...well...

Greets
Schepp himself

Going on that, remember that you have to score on your own objectives as well in 2/3 of the missions. This means that having good CC fex's get to a midfield objective (or hanging back on one) quickly and providing area denial to enemy troops that must get there to score are a good thing to have around. Given that cover saves have improved drastically, this isn't something that's hard to achieve. Plus the fact that hidden power fists have less attacks now, and LD is modified by how much a unit lost combat by, you're looking at something that can keep units off objectives fairly well.

Leaving you troops to have to go grab the other objectives that the enemy is defending.

Also combine with the fact that you as a player get to place the objectives, you have some control over making sure that some objectives are in advantageous positions for yourself, which let you setup situations where your MC can sit in cover safely, denying the area to other units trying to take the objective.

Schepp himself: The pdf you're referring to says that the main rules refer to infantry: all other units are deviations from those rules and the deviations are recorded in their separate sections. So far the only deviation from the run ability seems to be non-Walker vehicles.