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Hey all, im planning to make a 750 pt chaos army and need a good HQ, but he cant be too expensive, and i want him to be decent.

So i was wondering, in your opinion, what is the best HQ you can get for the least amount of points?

I was thinking the Daemon Prince with wings, at 130 points, hes pretty cheap for a flying MC.

What do you think???

You got it in one. DP all the way.

I think leaving him totally barebones (Wings and nothing else) is a waste, though. At 750 pts, even the humble Doombolt can make a difference, and it's awfully cheap. Or you could take the always lovely Warptime, MoS + Lash, or just an MoK. This will still give you an affordable DP at 140-155 pts.

Daemon Prince with wings and Warptime. When the power goes off you are nearly guaranteed 4 wounds every round of combat.

Definently the DP with lash... at 155 pts he is a gamebreaker on a game of 750.

Just take a basic Chaos Lord. Cheap, effective, and he's an Independent Character.

Nurglitch wrote:Just take a basic Chaos Lord. Cheap, effective, and he's an Independent Character.

I'm a proponent of lords too, though they're clearly a less efficient choice. For 750 maybe just take combi-plasma + power weapon to keep it cheap but still offer some killy support.

The HQ I use in all my games is a lord with MoT, deathscreamer and icon. The screamer is a fun weapon, lets the lord reach out and touch the enemy without requiring a psychic test (which is generally hooded anyway). Sure a roll of 1 can suck but a roll of 6 shots @ BS5 is pretty sweet. The only downside is that while the screamer works in combat for a lot of attaks, S4 is pants. The 4+ inv save is hypothetically a cool thing too, but the number of times I've made it is way under 50%

- Salvage

EDIT -- That said, I think a DP w/ wings + warptime is a better choice here, particularly as there will be fewer guns to target him as he rampages in.

How are Chaos Lords "clearly" the less efficient choice?

Nurglitch wrote:How are Chaos Lords "clearly" the less efficient choice?

After listening to months of loud debate on Dakka about how much better value demon princes are over lords I had to concede that yes, DP are much more bang for your points compared to lords. Sorcerers too offer a lot for only 10 points more than a lord, though I think a lot of the boost sorcerers got in the debate was because of theoryhammer's raging hard on for the lash

In my mind what lords have going for them in the cool / useful realm are demon weapons, which offer some neat abilities unseen elsewhere in the list. Yes, like killing themselves, but also like having a solid shooting attak or generating 16+ attaks in one turn.

And note that you could read that "clearly" as sarcastic, as I'm on your side here Nurgly.

- Salvage

Boss_Salvage: So by "clearly" you just mean "according to public opinion"?

Way to alienate people who agree with you, Nurglitch. Try reading posts to the last line next time?

-

Setting aside the question of which is better in general, the more relevant question is this: which is better at the points level the OP was asking about? This is not an 'Ard Boyz match-up where Lord Choppystick is going to start the battle staring down twenty lascannons. This is 750 pts, where there will hardly ever be enough AT to take the DP down before he makes contact or enough CC to put him down easily when he gets there. Context, context, context.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Way to alienate people who agree with you, Nurglitch. Try reading posts to the last line next time?

-

Setting aside the question of which is better in general, the more relevant question is this: which is better at the points level the OP was asking about? This is not an 'Ard Boyz match-up where Lord Choppystick is going to start the battle staring down twenty lascannons. This is 750 pts, where there will hardly ever be enough AT to take the DP down before he makes contact or enough CC to put him down easily when he gets there. Context, context, context.

t-C: Agreed on both your points, particularly the part about DPs in context (the same one I was trying to make ...)

Nurg: Arguing semantics aside, I would still like to hear your thoughts on cheap and efficient chaos lord builds, here or elsewhere.

- Salvage

Boss_Salvage: A Chaos Lord has several advantages over a Daemon Prince. They can be summed up as (1) More Options, (2) Frag Grenades, and (3) Independent Character status.

A Daemon Prince and a Chaos Lord have the same number of attacks because the Chaos Lord has a Bolt Pistol. This same Bolt Pistol gives the Chaos Lord the ability to shoot its enemies as well as assault them. This Bolt Pistol can be upgraded to a Plasma Pistol for greater hitting power.

The Melta-Bombs give the Chaos Lord equivalent vehicle destroying power to the Daemon Prince for 15 fewer points, which adds up to a space Chaos Space Marine or a Lesser Daemon. Similarly the Power Weapon upgrade allows it to ignore armour saving throws just like the Daemon Prince's Monstrous Creature rule, for fewer points, and the Power Fist upgrade means the Chaos Lord will hit harder against other Monstrous Creatures (S8 > S6) for only five more points than the basic Daemon Prince.

The Personal Icon gives the Chaos Lord the ability to act as a locus for summoning Lesser Daemons, as well as Deep Striking Terminators. Greater Daemons can possess the Chaos Lord, thereby having another avenue by which to enter play.

The Twin-Linked Bolter and Combi-Weapon allow you to tailor the Chaos Lord to further increase its shooting power, particularly against hordes of troops with a Combi-Flamethrower.

Like a Daemon Prince a Chaos Lord can be equipped with Wings, while it can also be equipped with a Bike or a Daemonic Steed. The Bike makes the Lord even faster and gives it a Toughness bonus, while the Daemonic Steeds all of which increase the Chaos Lord's Attacks while either increasing its mobility, Strength, or Wounds.

Terminator armour gives the Chaos Lord a better armour saving throw than the Daemon Prince, including the ability to Deep Strike that the Wings upgrade gives the Daemon Prince and with the advantage of being able to use this ability any time. Unfortunately the Chaos Lord loses the Frag Grenades with this upgrade, but at least it will not get mowed down by troops as easily.

And then there are Daemon Weapons, which I believe have been covered.

Frag Grenades allow the Chaos Lord to assault units in cover more effectively than the Daemon Prince, particularly in combination with a weapon such as Power Fist.

Being an Independent Character gives the Chaos Lord both Move Through Cover, which works well with the Frag Grenades, and Skilled Rider, which combines well with the Bike. As an Independent Character the Chaos Lord can join units, lending its Leadership to them, which lets you save on Champion upgrades, and prevents the Chaos Lord from being singled out by shooting. The Chaos Lord can hitch a ride in a Land Raider, which is immune to popular units like Lootas who will annihilate Monstrous Creatures.

Basically a Chaos Lord is cheaper (20 points), more flexible (more options), and more survivable (Independent Character) than the Daemon Prince despite the Daemon Prince's superior stat-line, and provides better support to the army (Icon option, Leadership, shooting).

Cheap and efficient-wise it depends, as usual, on what else you're taking and what you want to do. If you're trying to save points to buy more stuff in the rest of your army then a basic Chaos Lord with no options is just fine, with, perhaps, a Power Weapon if you really want to forgo the extra attacks, wounds, and shooting that a spare Chaos Space Marine would provide.

If you're looking to land some Daemons on someone and don't want to shell out for expensive squad Icons, then a Chaos Lord with a Personal Icon is hardy enough to survive until the Daemons come in from reserves.

If you want to land something hard on someone, then a Chaos Lord in Terminator armour and a small (three or four) body-guard of Terminators will be an interesting shock.

If you're assaulting a defended position, then a Chaos Lord with a Combi-Flamethrower will add a cheap Template weapon to your toolbox.

My 2 Cents:

There are a couple reasons to include an independent character as HQ rather than a monstrous creature.
Anyhow I disagree strongly with nurglicht about the usefullness of a chaos lord, since almost anything that can be done by a lord can be done better with a sorc.

If you are hell bent to take

a) a deamonic steed or (well, after all this is an okay choice but you are paying plenty of pts to still struggle to make a cc heavy lord that is as good at brawling as a cheap DP is)
b) a deamon weapon (most of which suck bad time, mark my words)

then so be it, in any other case either choose the already widely discussed DP or a Sorcerer. Look at it as the same thing as a lord but with the mandatory cc weapon upgrade already included. In fact you gain a force weapon where a lord with a power weapon would cost 5 points more (!). Since you won't want to take a pfist on an independent character in 4th ed anyway, that's really all you need.
Only downside I could imagine is that you have to take at least one power thus can't keep the sorc at 100 pts, but then again if you want to go cheap just choose doombolt and you got the equivalent of a lord with a power weapon, only with the better cc weapon as well as a ranged firing ability that on average almost equals the deathscreamer deamon weapon for dirt cheap 110 pts (5 more than the lord).

Nurglitch wrote:

If you're trying to save points to buy more stuff in the rest of your army then a basic Chaos Lord with no options is just fine, with, perhaps, a Power Weapon if you really want to forgo the extra attacks, wounds, and shooting that a spare Chaos Space Marine would provide.

Don't want to complain about the whole of your post, but I do want to stretch that one should never, ever follow this special advice . Take a sorc, pay less and gain some utility via those psychic powers. Never take a lord w/ a power weapon only. Oh, and while we are at it: Don't take a bare lord either, cause you are wasting 90 pts ~ 12% of your total points to accomplish... exactly, nothing throughout the whole game. If you wanted to summon daemons, you could likely buy a couple of icons for your regular squads for those 90 points. And if you summoned a greater deamon through a 90 pts bare chaos lord... well, I wouldn't even comment on that one

So all in all, I'd make up my mind along the following questions:

a) Do you want a montrous creature / decent all-round cc HQ? Take a deamon prince
b) Do you rather want utility and a generally more defensive HQ (IC status to protect you) then choose a sorc
c) Do you want both? Take a DP and give him a power

-Khorneflakes

P.S.: It's a shame they priced the lord at 90. I remember a time where he stood up to a space marine chapter master barring 'rites of battle' for 15 pts less. Nowadays he still lacks 'rites fo battle' and is 15 pts more? Funerally...

Im not so sure about the lord except for the daemon weapon. The sorc gets psycic powers and a forceweapon while 1 less WS for just 10 points more. If the lord gets a powerweapon so he too can ignore saves, he is 5 pts more expensive.

All in all tho, the DP is like the sorc on crack.. esp if you play 750 since there will never be enough hard shooting to take him out.

Sure there will be enough shooting. The amount of shooting on the opposing side will be less, but then there will be fewer targets to match. The Daemon Prince will be a big target and won't have many other big targets to distract from it.

Sure there will not be enough shooting. Your prince is only 155 out of 750 leaving more targets, but what is more is that there will be alot of free areas to move around and mostly there will be alot less hwy weapons in a 750 then 1500-2000 game.(in wich the DP still is the more worthy choice according to popular belif)

He surely isnt loosing in power at smaller games.

My thoughts:

To the original poster, the Daemon Prince will come in handy at a low-points game where you get a versatile, mobile, scoring unit for maybe 20% of your points total. Why not take advantage of the comparative lack of high strength, AP3/AP2 weapons in a 750 point game and enjoy using the fellow? Such a game is probably the most optimal time to use a Daemon Prince. Even if your opponents are inclined to try and max out on las/plas and so forth at 750 points, it should take most of their firepower to bring down your Prince, which should nicely screen the other 80% or so of your army as it performance its own duties.

Independent Character status is, to me, mostly useful for protecting the Lord from shooting attacks. It becomes less relevant in Hand to Hand where he has to be vulnerable in order to attack, and usually instant-killing (unlike the Daemon Prince) anyway. If we have established that the Daemon Prince is much less vulnerable to shooting than usual, the value of that protection declines in a like proportion compared to a larger game.

Even the Move Through Cover skill is of less value in this instance-as a Monstrous Creature the Daemon Prince can always re-roll the dice. I will leave it up to others to determine if 2D6 with a re-roll or 3D6 base is superior, but I think it suffices to say that both are good to have.

Frag Grenades are nice, but they do not stack with a power fist. So the Lord is either swinging at a lower strength, if slightly faster, or going at I1-exactly the last place an independent character wants to be. If you are planning on Frag Grenades making a meaningful contribution to the model's performance, you are probably best off with a Sorcerer or a Daemon Weapon on the Lord, but you are making an increasingly more expensive model as you add the upgrades to make them effective.

Unfortunately the one attack from melta bombs is not, in my opinion, an adequate subsitute for x5 S6 Monstrous Creature attacks.

The Lord's use in being possessed or as an Icon bearer is contingent upon taking units that benefit from these abilities. Even then, I am unconvinced that, without investing in a tooled Bike Lord/Sorcerer, this delivery method is superior to a Chosen squad with Infiltrate.

The Lord does have some leadership bonus potential, but Chaos leadership is so high that I do not see this benefit usually coming into play.

I suppose shooting goes to the Lord, but I am not really convinced that a one-shot template and a twin-linked bolter are particularly decisive contributions to your army's performance. Nice to have, but obtainable elsewhere and not a tremendous augmentation.

The 2+ save can also be useful, but without marks they have the same base invulnerable save against most attacks that ignore their armor (krak missiles and Ion heads perhaps being the notable exemptions?), while the Prince's improved toughness still leaves it about even in the end with many other weapons attacking them.

So, while not denying that there are good uses for a Lord, I would generally see the Daemon Prince as a superior cheap/cheap-ish HQ selection, with somewhat decreasing utility as the points value of the game increases.

Imo, The lord w/ daemon weapon is just much better for wiping out hordes, 3+d6 ws5 s4 pw attacks IS good, even if you whack yourself occasionally.

I have a mate with a khorne lord who in the 4 games he's been used in (because of being new, not unloved) has NEVER rolled a 1 in CC. 4+2d6 attacks is SCARY, although this guy just seems to have magic dice.

Alpharius Walks wrote:
So, while not denying that there are good uses for a Lord, I would generally see the Daemon Prince as a superior cheap/cheap-ish HQ selection, with somewhat decreasing utility as the points value of the game increases.

I agree with that. The larger the game the more I slant towards a Lash Sorc instead of a Lash Prince.

Nurglitch:

Sure there will be enough shooting. The amount of shooting on the opposing side will be less, but then there will be fewer targets to match. The Daemon Prince will be a big target and won't have many other big targets to distract from it.

In my experience, DPs are like Flyrants: opponents will direct enough firepower at it to kill it or all the firepower they have, whichever is less. In a 2000 pt game, that means eating ten lascannons and dying in the first turn it's exposed. In a 750 pt game, it probably means soaking 4-6 lascannons and making it into combat with a couple of wounds to spare. The fact that there are no other distractions doesn't make a difference to the model that's public enemy #1 in any case.

It is also incorrect to assume that a 750 pt Chaos army won't have competing targets. If you're running, say, a Plague Marine-heavy army, the weapons that deny your PMs FNP are the same weapons needed to take down the DP. Or, for an even simpler example: what if you field 2 cheap DPs? Cheesy, but possible.

Teh_K42 wrote:Imo, The lord w/ daemon weapon is just much better for wiping out hordes, 3+d6 ws5 s4 pw attacks IS good, even if you whack yourself occasionally.

I have a mate with a khorne lord who in the 4 games he's been used in (because of being new, not unloved) has NEVER rolled a 1 in CC. 4+2d6 attacks is SCARY, although this guy just seems to have magic dice.

Oh well, d6 power weapon attacks tend to be 3.5 on average, so that's 6.5 attacks at s4 rather than 4 attacks at s6

6.5 attacks at s4 ~ 4.33 hits ~ 2.16 wounds on MEQ,

4 attacks at s6 ~ 2.66 hits ~ 2.22 wound on MEQ,

so on average you pay more points on a lord than a prince to kill less!!

Then there is the chance to whack yourself!

Furthermore, you have a higher variance with the lord, so there will be the inevitable game where you don't even get to kill 2 marines where you needed 3 to avoid the fist cause you rolled a '2'. Or the game where you wiped out the whole las/plas squad on the charge because you had 9 attacks to get shot down next turn.
Both of which are really, really bad even without taking a rolled '1' into account. In 4th ed, winning cc in a favorable way is all about reliability and constant performance so you can plan accordingly, neither of which the lord with deamon weapon excels at.

Regarding the khornate d.-weapon: It's not at all scary. I'd frolic if I knew my enemy would bring an expensive (at least 140 pts) hq model that couldn't even hit back in 11 out of 36 combats (that's almost 1/3), wounding itself in the process. And even if it did strike, it would kill only like 3 MEQ on average (attacks are capped at 10 max, like every other stat in the game afaik).

Relying on above average rolls to accomplish any given task is indeed what I'd call scary, though more or less regarding the playing style of the person fielding the khorne lord as opposed to the lord itself. Sure, from time to time it will happen, but then again you can make a point that guard excels in cc, just because I have lost a couple greater deamons (the old ones from the last dex) to guardsmen over the course of the last years...

The marked d.weapons (arguably except the nurgle and/or slaanesh ones) all have certain drawbacks that make them not worthwhile imho. Going unmarked or excessive pairing with a steed is the only way to actually outperform a DP in cc, though you'd have to throw a lot of points down that road where a DP simply could take warptime and be a really reliable cc monster...

-Khorneflakes

P.S.: Wiping out hordes that do not offer an armour save is a game where even a points wise compareable amount of normal chaos marines will outperform a lord, so why even give it a try?

I've thought about chaos lords, but i cant make one that is cheap, but still effective. Daemon princes are just more appealing to me, I like the idea of giving it warptime, but i just thought that 155 pts might be too expensive for such a small game.

I suppose he can do a lot of damage with warptime though, as hes almost guaranteed 4 wounds a turn (in cc). I dont really want to use a lash prince or sorcerer because the rules for it seem unclear to me.

Thanks for the suggestions, more are welcome!

I'd go for lord wings, MOS and Lash, basically you can drag anyone out of cover who may be there, you'll disrupt all the enemies plans, you'll hit simultaneously or before most IC's and you'll take a lot of punishment as well!

If you do however want to go for a lord, i'd either go lord, wings and perhaps a demon weapon (i personally roll far too many ones with these.)

Or in termi armour (but then you can suffer torrent fo fire problems if he's with a unit due to average amour - as at 750pts termi's are not a great choice imho.

Basically i think the DP is more aggressive and more effective.

Colonel Schwotz, like I said earlier, even the basic Doombolt is worth taking if you don't want to splash out on Warptime or MoS + Lash. Really though, Warptime is a safe bet at any points level. 155 is not expensive.

I’m on board with the winged daemon prince, especially in smaller games.

As far as survivability goes, generally he will have terrain to advance behind at least part of the time, and his army will be smaller and have fewer things competing to use those hiding places. Your opponent’s army will have fewer heavy weapons to gun him down. A Lord or Sorcerer, on the other hand, is primarily protected by their IC status, which is dependent on the presence of other units to deny fire at him. At 750 you have fewer other units to protect him than you do in larger games.

As far as killiness goes, the S6 of the prince outweighs power weapons and most daemon weapons handily. It’s huge. As the math above showed, he kills more or equal numbers with fewer attacks. Warp Time makes him very reliable. Against vehicles 5 S6 + 2d6 attacks are substantially better than a single meltabomb attack, and even better than the S8 + 1d6 attacks the lord can make with a fist.

As far as general utility goes, the prince gives you another scoring unit. This is very good in general, and invaluable in smaller games.


As noted, the inferior strength of the lord is what really gets him down. If you want to field one, always give him the Undivided/Unmarked daemon weapon (for S5) or lightning claws (to re-roll wounds; combines nicely with Mark of Khorne).

A mobility upgrade is absolutely mandatory to make him useful. A naked chaos lord standing around is just handicapping yourself by 90pts. Wings/Flight are easy to model and very good. The bike may be slightly superior, though, as T5 tends to substantially reduce the number of normal wounds he has to save on his 3+ against regular infantry.

In terms of general utility the IC abilities can be nice, but really comes into its own in larger games where he can more easily move around the battlefield protected by the presence of other units. I think the earlier point about a personal icon is also very valid, though. If you’re using daemons and/or terminators, combined with a mobility upgrade, the lord can substantially increase your flexibility in where to place those units. He’s a terrible place to summon a Greater Daemon, as you’re killing him and more than doubling the real cost of the Greater. Much better to use a cheap naked aspiring champ in Chosen, Raptors (dual melta tankhunting squad), or even a terminator unit.


Sorcerers are good for the powers, obviously. In HTH they’re not great, but Lash can be amazing, Wind of Chaos can allow him to kill whole squads (combined with the charge, or another unit’s shooting or assault), and Warp Time can make him a decent threat in combat. If you want him to be good in a fight, I recommend Bike and Warp Time, optionally with a familiar and Lash if you want to be really mean and don’t mind shelling out the points. If you want a somewhat cheaper one, I like Wings and Wind of Chaos. Again, a personal icon can be great assuming you’re using the corresponding units.

I really feel I have to comment on some of the points you made about a chaos lord being favorable over a DP, Nurglitch. Here goes.

Nurglitch wrote:Boss_Salvage: A Chaos Lord has several advantages over a Daemon Prince. They can be summed up as (1) More Options, (2) Frag Grenades, and (3) Independent Character status.

A Daemon Prince and a Chaos Lord have the same number of attacks because the Chaos Lord has a Bolt Pistol. This same Bolt Pistol gives the Chaos Lord the ability to shoot its enemies as well as assault them. This Bolt Pistol can be upgraded to a Plasma Pistol for greater hitting power.

Spellbound: In my experience psychic powers tend to get shut down, either by Psychic Hoods, or Eldar Runes, or the Tyranid Shadow in the Warp. Guns are reliable firepower, Psychic Powers are not.

A Personal Icon is much cheaper than any squad Icon, and a Chaos Lord resists firepower better than a squad Icon bearer. Hence using the Lord as a focal point for summoning is more reliable and a better use of points for summoning Daemons in a small game.

If a Chaos Lord is down to 1 wound, either by shooting, combat, or his own Daemon Weapon, then replacing him with a Greater Daemon (and all the extra wounds and so on that a Greater Daemon gives you) can be very useful. In particular it's good to do so if your Chaos Lord gets stuck in combat with things that can Instant Kill him. Instead of letting your Lord get killed, you simply kill him to get the Greater Daemon where the action is.

The choice between a Chaos Lord and a Daemon Prince is a question of support. With his selection of guns, Independent Character status, Personal Icon, and access to Terminator Armour the Chaos Lord better supports the forces under his combat. The Daemon Prince is a unit that needs to be supported by your army to deliver it to where it is most effective, and otherwise it's a large and expensive (once you add the Wings, Mark, and Psychic Powers) target. Obviously it's ideal to have both, the Chaos Lord (or a Chaos Sorcerer to lead your force if you're pretty sure you're not going to get its Psychic Powers shut down) and the Daemon Prince, but in a same force supporting what else you have is more important than a one-note Monstrous Creature.

Nurgltich:

The choice between a Chaos Lord and a Daemon Prince is a question of support. With his selection of guns, Independent Character status, Personal Icon, and access to Terminator Armour the Chaos Lord better supports the forces under his combat. The Daemon Prince is a unit that needs to be supported by your army to deliver it to where it is most effective, and otherwise it's a large and expensive (once you add the Wings, Mark, and Psychic Powers) target. Obviously it's ideal to have both, the Chaos Lord (or a Chaos Sorcerer to lead your force if you're pretty sure you're not going to get its Psychic Powers shut down) and the Daemon Prince, but in a same force supporting what else you have is more important than a one-note Monstrous Creature.

If anything, I'd say it's the other way around, and the Lord needs support more than the DP. You're also neglecting the way in which the DP can also provide support. Can the Lord go out on his own to neutralise a CC threat to the shooty elements of his army? Not really. Can a DP? Hell yeah. Does the DP need his people to sit around and babysit him? Nope. Does a Lord? Certainly, unless he'd like a bright lance in the face. Does the Lord draw fire from more vulnerable elements of the army? I'd hope not. Does the DP? Yes--if you want him to. (Hide him if you don't.)

Either of them can provide support, although in different ways, but only one of them really needs support itself, and that's the Lord. If you find your army scrambling to support your DP, that's a sign that you've over-valued a DP. Don't think of him as Kvorrak, Destroyer of Kaladash, but as a very nasty, fairly tanky, and very disposal spot-cleaner and you can't go wrong.

My DPs are definitely disposable, as are any lords I take now. Since they're so much easier to kill than before I can't think of them as anything but, and considering they're so much cheaper and so much less important to the army just because they can't possibly do as much as before also makes me care less what happens to them.

My sorcerors, though - gotta protect them

Spellbound wrote:Since they're so much easier to kill than before ...

Because of no more 2+ save? No bionics? My khorne DP would be feeling the lack of FNP, if I ran him still :S

- Salvage