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Okay, here's one that turned a big battle for me. Power fists.

One of the IG Commandments suggests that Ogryns are not worth having, and it is the commonly held belief that Guardsmen are worthless in an assault, I contend otherwise. If you have enough of these buggers, they can make a real difference. But while fielding some Orgyns that got in an assault with a squad of Marines, two with powerfists, I came to a good question that the rule book as written does not cover or even suggest.

If a squad of six Ogryns with three wounds each is hit with five powerfists attacks that strike and wound, are five Ogryn killed? As written, you would group the wounds up three at a time, with any left over counting against one model. As written, five wounds would kill only two Ogryn, however if you think "one wound of powefist to each Ogryn," which would remove five Ogryn. However that goes against what the rule book says.

Now some people may be getting rather annoyed by now about this, since they probably think this is obvious. "If one powerfist attack kills the Ogryn outright, then you wouldn't hit them three time!" In my defense, I haven't used my Ogryns in YEARS, so I forget how powerfists work (only a couple of IG units have multiple wounds, but they usually die in a slaughter of power weapons, before powerfists even strike!), and there isn't much purpose to field any Guardsmen with powerfists, as they cost 20pts and only allow 2+ to wound, you can get three more Guardsmen for the same price. So there is only one model in my army with one, and only because I believe in "play as shown" rules, and I want the Leadership boost from the Commissar.

You should read the rules before posting authoritative posts is my reply.

Stelek wrote:You should read the rules before posting authoritative posts is my reply.

Actually I had the rule book out just to check, I didn't see anything under the entry for Powerfists nor under removing casualties in assaults that clarified my inquiry. However from what the rules allow you to assume (which we know what that means) is that five Ogryns would be removed, but we could also assume (again, same thing) is that since it does NOT say that wounds from a Powerfist can be gathered onto models that only two Ogryns would be removed. Hence why I am posting here. If there is a section in the inch and a half thick rule book that clarifies this then you can point me there. Or you can be a snob and just be dismissive, which doesn't help anyone. Whichever works best for you really.

I read the Instant Death rule and multiple wounds section in the rule book. Neither explain what happens when you have multiple characters with multiple wounds in the same squad (such as Ogryns) and how powerfists and Instant Death effects them. The Instant Death entry simply explains that a weapon of double the model's unmodified toughness results in the removal of that model, it does not cover how multiple Instant Death strikes effect said model. This is an entry to clarify this rule and how it interacts with other rules.

There's no need to clarify anything.

The rules are clear how wounds on multi-wound models work when related to instant death.

Read all of the rules please.

@Skinnattittar, Please disregard Steleks rudeness, he forgets that not everyone is as smart as he believes he is.

To answer your questionread page 27 (BGB) in the section Creatures with more than one wound. The third paragraph has the relevant text.

I hope this helps,

Darrian

"When a unit contains several multiple-Wound models and those models take wounds, you must remove whole multiple-Wound models from the unit as casualties where possible - wounds may not be 'spread around' to avoid removing models. Track any excess wounds with a marker as noted above." - p27, Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook

This entry? I understand that wounds may not be "spread around," however this really just helps one side of the arguement.

I have encountered Stelek before and I know how he acts. I don't mind someone being rough or turst, but only if it is constructive, just being rude does not help anything and only really displays a level of arrogance that makes it a difficult task to find any redeeming features in that person.

@ Stelek : Kid, if you want to be difficult, that is fine. But if you are not going to be constructive, please do not waste the Forum's bandwidth and server space with useless banter. Thank you.

Instant kill removes a whole model per wound. so 5 wounds with a powerfist would remove 5 models regardless of the amount of wounds they have.

If the ogryns are tough enough that they don't get instant killed(I don't know the IG unit stats) then you allocate wounds to remove a single model until it is dead and then roll onto the next model until all the wounds are distributed. So 5 wounds would remove 1model, leave one model with a single wound left and the other three ogryns would not be affected.

Thought a written example might help
Hope this helps

hellsguardian316 wrote:Instant kill removes a whole model per wound. so 5 wounds with a powerfist would remove 5 models regardless of the amount of wounds they have.

If the ogryns are tough enough that they don't get instant killed(I don't know the IG unit stats) then you allocate wounds to remove a single model until it is dead and then roll onto the next model until all the wounds are distributed. So 5 wounds would remove 1model, leave one model with a single wound left and the other three ogryns would not be affected.

Thought a written example might help
Hope this helps

The second part I already knew, however it is not stated in the rules how multiple Instant Death attacks effect units with multiple models with multiple wounds. How did you come to your conclusion (utilizing the rules in the 4th Edition Rule book or GW supplied FAQ)?

Skinnattittar wrote:@ Stelek : Kid, if you want to be difficult, that is fine. But if you are not going to be constructive, please do not waste the Forum's bandwidth and server space with useless banter. Thank you.

Wow even more trolling from the troll. Did you read the rules yet?

@ Darrian: Were you talking again? Stand up so we can hear you more clearly.

Stelek wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:@ Stelek : Kid, if you want to be difficult, that is fine. But if you are not going to be constructive, please do not waste the Forum's bandwidth and server space with useless banter. Thank you.

Did you read the rules yet?

Yes, several times to ensure comparison before I posted this on the forum. Did you read the rules at all? So far I haven't seen any proof you have.

You keep asking the same question, over and over.

You said you read the rules, yet you don't get it. Everyone else does.

To me, that means you are either trolling for rules because you don't have them; or you are just trolling on a bs topic to amuse yourself.

You're like nurglitch jr but without the grammar.

Stelek wrote:You keep asking the same question, over and over.

You said you read the rules, yet you don't get it. Everyone else does.

To me, that means you are either trolling for rules because you don't have them; or you are just trolling on a bs topic to amuse yourself.

You're like nurglitch jr but without the grammar.

Yet nobody has answered the question and pointed to where in the rules that resolves it? Well, Darrian13 pointed out the section that prompted my inquiry and confusion, but that wasn't really an asnwer, and Hellsguardian316 made a statement, but hasn't supported it yet. So far you have only prompted "have you read the rules?" several times, which is not an answer since I stated I had early on. If you want to start insulting the verasity of my inquiry, then I really don't need your input. However, if you have the answer (page number would be good so I can quote it later myself) or know which section answers that explicitly, then that would be appreciated. If you think I am "trolling," which I believe is against forum rules, then report this thread and leave it up to the Moderators to decide. If not, either help out or get out, any other option is not useful.

As far as the level of enjoyment I am getting out of this banter with you, yes, I am enjoying this a little bit, it's not that often that I bump into someone online that is rude and presumptuous, while at the same time can spell and use proper grammar. Plus it makes for decent bumps for the thread, though I'm not sure if this forum is hot enough right now to need it.

Page 27.

Bottom left hand column , bottom paragraph.

Top right hand column, top paragraph.

If it's still confusing, go into a game store and talk to someone who plays 40k.

Skinnattittar:

The ID rules state that a model is removed if it is wounded by an attack with double or more its Toughness.

That means if you allocated one S8 (or more) wound to an Ogryn that model is then removed as a casualty and no further wounds can be allocated to that model.

Stelek wrote:Page 27.
Bottom left hand column , bottom paragraph.
Top right hand column, top paragraph.
If it's still confusing, go into a game store and talk to someone who plays 40k.

So, from analysing these two entries, as I have before and explained earlier, we can deduce, utilizing strict logic, that if there are five Powerfist attacks on a squad of six, three Wound, models, then three Powerfist attacks go to one model, then the remaining two go to another. Since these are Instant Death attacks, which only require one striking wound to remove the model, then the second model attacked is also removed. Therefore, five powerfist attacks against a squad of three Wound models results in two models being removed.

Ogryns are pretty good in assault mate, a squad of 6 cleaned up a couple of my SM squads in pretty short order!

Q&A's for the OP though-what is the Toughness of an Ogryn? 4 or 5-I do not play IG and therefore do not have a codex..

As for the question regarding insta-kill, If the weapons S is twice of the victim's Toughness, it dies. Even if it has 6 wounds and is part of a ten man squad.

There are the page numbers clearly laid out above by Darrien and Hellsguardian.

Possibly read the whole section about casualties and model-removal, there might be a tid-bit there you missed.

PS-Stelek- I see where you are coming from mate, but Crikey old-son, didn't you get any Easter Eggs this year?

* Edit *for spelling

Skinnattittar wrote:
So, from analysing these two entries, as I have before and explained earlier, we can deduce, utilizing strict logic, that if there are five Powerfist attacks on a squad of six, three Wound, models, then three Powerfist attacks go to one model, then the remaining two go to another. Since these are Instant Death attacks, which only require one striking wound to remove the model, then the second model attacked is also removed. Therefore, five powerfist attacks against a squad of three Wound models results in two models being removed.

No, because as soon as you allocate just one S8 wound to the Ogryn, the model is removed from play due to instant death.

From reading what you've posted, and I am presuming here, it sounds like you're confusing hits with wounds. You aren't allocating five wacks from a powerfist, you've already rolled to hit and you've scored five wounds from those hits. Only after you have the wounds do you allocate. Since a double toughness hit removes a model, and you can't put wounds on a model that is already removed from the table, that means five dead ogryns.

So, basically the synopsis here is that wound allocation is not done on a model to model basis, not the mass allocation that would typically take place when we are considering a non-Instant Death scenario. So it is more like a check board system then a peg board system.

@ Akira : Ogryns are okay, unless you get them into a Chimera where they can actually move around and get at the less ept units. Otherwise, in an assault, they get killed by powerfists rather nastily, and at their point value, you would be better off buying another squad or two, or another heavy support option. Basically, when points matter, there are better investments for the IG, in my opinion.

Skinnattittar wrote:So, basically the synopsis here is that wound allocation is not done on a model to model basis, not the mass allocation that would typically take place when we are considering a non-Instant Death scenario. So it is more like a check board system then a peg board system.

@ Akira : Ogryns are okay, unless you get them into a Chimera where they can actually move around and get at the less ept units. Otherwise, in an assault, they get killed by powerfists rather nastily, and at their point value, you would be better off buying another squad or two, or another heavy support option. Basically, when points matter, there are better investments for the IG, in my opinion.

I don't understand. You would allocate the wounds as normal. Since each wound is an instant death hit, you allocate five wounds, each of which will destroy a model. Five double toughness wounds, five dead ogryns.

The clarification provided has proven that, yes. The confusion was that wounds are supposed to be alocated, but are they immediately applied or do you distribute them then apply them and their characteristics.

So a three wound model would absorb two wounds, but if those wounds are instant death then they would still cause the model to be removed even though it has one wound left. I suppose that is the best way of describing my way of thought on the matter.

The way you "think" isn't the way the game plays.

You only take off previously wounded multi-wound models if that is the last model eligible to be taken off.

There are more variables in the game than you seem to be aware of.

Read the rules, then play a game.

You're thinking that you allocate the wounds before you activate "special effects" from the wounds ( Affects actually, I guess, anyway....). But the rules say a wound from a strength => 2T causes instant death. Therefore as soon as the wound "goes on" the model, it would remove that model.

Grignard wrote:You're thinking that you allocate the wounds before you activate "special effects" from the wounds ( Affects actually, I guess, anyway....). But the rules say a wound from a strength => 2T causes instant death. Therefore as soon as the wound "goes on" the model, it would remove that model.

Actually the rules don't really say how that works, they sort of imply it but then at the same time leave it pretty open. I haven't used my Ogryns in years, and I don't use Powerfists myself. I had already seen their affect/effect (whichever, I can never remember) that benefitted the player using the weapon, but the rules didn't really specify it that way. So I just really wanted to see how my interpretation played out in the opinion of other players. And as persistant as Stelek was about reading the same book and getting the same possible result as I already had, he was still almost utterly useless. I believe the rules are there for a reason, but if they aren't clear it is nice to get some constructive advice from people who are more familiar with an aspect that you are not, before going ahead and blithering around ruining people's games.

Typically, if I am not sure about a rule and they are, I'll go with them, but why just succumb to what someone else says because the book isn't clear when one has such a resource as you fine fellow gamers who can compose a constructive statement.

Skinnattittar wrote:

Grignard wrote:You're thinking that you allocate the wounds before you activate "special effects" from the wounds ( Affects actually, I guess, anyway....). But the rules say a wound from a strength => 2T causes instant death. Therefore as soon as the wound "goes on" the model, it would remove that model.

Actually the rules don't really say how that works, they sort of imply it but then at the same time leave it pretty open. I haven't used my Ogryns in years, and I don't use Powerfists myself. I had already seen their affect/effect (whichever, I can never remember) that benefitted the player using the weapon, but the rules didn't really specify it that way. So I just really wanted to see how my interpretation played out in the opinion of other players. And as persistant as Stelek was about reading the same book and getting the same possible result as I already had, he was still almost utterly useless. I believe the rules are there for a reason, but if they aren't clear it is nice to get some constructive advice from people who are more familiar with an aspect that you are not, before going ahead and blithering around ruining people's games.

Typically, if I am not sure about a rule and they are, I'll go with them, but why just succumb to what someone else says because the book isn't clear when one has such a resource as you fine fellow gamers who can compose a constructive statement.

Lets look at it from what I think would be a RAI stance. Some big marine with a fist walks up, winds up, takes the hit and smacks back and causes damage to five ogryns. The weapon in the hands of the big marine is capable of doing massive trauma that would be instantly lethal, even for such a creature as an ogryn. Why should you have to absorb two wounds before the third one does the business? In fact, it rules terms, why have a instant death rule if you have to put multiple wounds on the model anyway? Which wound is considered "instant death"?

akira5665 wrote:Ogryns are pretty good in assault mate, a squad of 6 cleaned up a couple of my SM squads in pretty short order!

No.

They're not.

And anecdotal evidence is meaningless.

They're expensive, can't kill anything, and die horribly to S8 weapons. Total waste of a Doctrine point, an Elite slot, and just normal points (and money - good Lord those models are expensive!).

BYE

That is the problem. If I was going to burn an elite slot, I think that any of the other choices would be better, or at least more points effective. Which is terribly unfortunate, because I think the ogryn are great models. I used to take them when I played guard in second an third ed.

HBMC-
No.

They're not.

And anecdotal evidence is meaningless.

They're expensive, can't kill anything, and die horribly to S8 weapons. Total waste of a Doctrine point, an Elite slot, and just normal points (and money - good Lord those models are expensive!).

Yes.

They are.

Anecdotal evidence was never intended, so your correction, in essence, is meaningless.

Just tellin a little story is all, so who cares whether it was anecdotal or not.

HBMC-They're expensive, can't kill anything, and die horribly to S8 weapons. Total waste of a Doctrine point, an Elite slot, and just normal points (and money - good Lord those models are expensive!).

Is probably very true. I never get to play against IG , and wish this were not the case. My experience was a one off game pretty much. I know from previous posts you are a bit of an expert where they are concerned,
so I accede to your greater knowledge, Sir.

akira5665 wrote:

HBMC-
No.

They're not.

And anecdotal evidence is meaningless.

They're expensive, can't kill anything, and die horribly to S8 weapons. Total waste of a Doctrine point, an Elite slot, and just normal points (and money - good Lord those models are expensive!).

Yes.

They are.

Anecdotal evidence was never intended, so your correction, in essence, is meaningless.

Just tellin a little story is all, so who cares whether it was anecdotal or not.

Let me go out on a limb here, and assume you don't know what anecdotal means.

This will probably surprise you, so you should probably sit down, or hold onto something sturdy.

Anecdotal evidence, in this case, is telling any sort of example story that supposedly supports the worth of models in this game. Here's a claim that, according to you, is a perfectly valid point, because I can back it up wit an anecdote:

Ratlings are terrific assault units!

Why? Because, a little while ago, a unit of five Ratlings managed to kill an Autarch in close combat!

Does that mean that the Ratlings are good at close combat? With WS 2, S 2, T 2 and a 5+ armour save, you better believe they aren't! Just like Ogryn, although obviously better at assault than Ratlings, aren't necessarily good at it just because they killed some Space Marines.