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Sent this to Boss and a few others via IM already, but it appears others want to see 'em so...here's the first list (of two).

============WWP================

2000 Pts - Dark Eldar Roster - WWP

1 Dracon @ 189 Pts
Splinter Rifle
1 Retinue @ [152] Pts
9 Warriors @ [92] Pts
Splinter Rifle (x7); Splinter Cannon (x2)
1 Raider @ [60] Pts
Disentegrator

1 Haemonculi @ 90 Pts
Destructor; Webway Portal

1 Haemonculi @ 90 Pts
Destructor; Webway Portal

8 Grotesques @ 120 Pts

8 Grotesques @ 120 Pts

5 Wyches @ 130 Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Splinter Pistol; Blaster (x2); Combat Drugs
1 Raider @ [60] Pts
Disentegrator

10 Raider Squad @ 150 Pts
Blaster; Splinter Rifle (x8); Splinter Cannon; Raider
1 Raider @ [55] Pts
Dark Lance

10 Raider Squad @ 150 Pts
Blaster; Splinter Rifle (x8); Splinter Cannon; Raider
1 Raider @ [55] Pts
Dark Lance

10 Raider Squad @ 150 Pts
Blaster; Splinter Rifle (x8); Splinter Cannon; Raider
1 Raider @ [55] Pts
Dark Lance

10 Raider Squad @ 150 Pts
Blaster; Splinter Rifle (x8); Splinter Cannon; Raider
1 Raider @ [55] Pts
Dark Lance

10 Raider Squad @ 150 Pts
Blaster; Splinter Rifle (x8); Splinter Cannon; Raider
1 Raider @ [55] Pts
Dark Lance

10 Raider Squad @ 150 Pts
Blaster; Splinter Rifle (x8); Splinter Cannon; Raider
1 Raider @ [55] Pts
Dark Lance

1 Ravager @ 120 Pts
Disentegrator (x3)

1 Ravager @ 120 Pts
Disentegrator (x3)

1 Ravager @ 120 Pts
Disentegrator (x3)

Total Roster Cost: 1999

i like it, but think maybe some more wyches would be a good addition. other than that great list.

Hard to afford more Wyches.

I've never really been happy with how they perform outside of suicide speed bump duty...which seems to be all they're good at anyway.

Here's how it normally goes:

Zoom out of the Webway.

Raider moves towards infantry unit 16" away.

Wyches jump out.

Wyches shoot, kill something.

"Aren't you going to fleet?"

'No.'

"Are you going to charge me?"

'Nope. Your turn.'

"Hmm your Wyches are tempting me to shoot them."

'By all means, shoot away.'

"Is this some sort of trap?"

'Yes.'

"...."

So, how would you play this against your shooty GT ork army? Those DE squads would have a heck of a time surviving against the shootiness of the ork list. They'd have a heck of a time hiding behind terrain, too, if you started with everything on the board.

Hide, deploy the WWP, come out shootin.

It's not like you can stand out in front of every army and go 'nyah nyah'.

Although it is amusing when you do.

Hey Stelek,
I have been working on a similar army, but I haven't had any chance to playtest it yet... So, hopefully you can provide some insight.

Does your opponent ever try to surround the WWPs and prevent your reserves from entering? Have they ever been successful? What do you do if/when that happens?

I imagine that you could have a lot of issues with a Drop Pod space marine army.

Any feedback/insight would be great.

Thanks!

EpilepticMoose wrote:Does your opponent ever try to surround the WWPs and prevent your reserves from entering? Have they ever been successful? What do you do if/when that happens?

Yes they've tried.

No they haven't.

You fly over them in your skimmers and shoot them dead, dead, dead.

Enemy troops do not block skimmer movement so the tactic doesn't work.

It does make the game quicker though, as I don't have to worry about range or anything. I come out, and shoot/assault what I want.

EpilepticMoose wrote:I imagine that you could have a lot of issues with a Drop Pod space marine army.

Not really.

If you get the option to go first, do so.

Drop your WWP out in the middle of the board on turn 2 if you're really worried, but you should not be.

You circle the wagons around your 2 WWP carriers in the middle of the board and let him drop.

Odds are he'll be unable to do any real damage to your grotesque's (who are immune to all S5 or less weapons, which is most of what a drop pod army brings).

If he makes them run, so what? Your WWP carriers should be hidden behind the grotesque units, not part of them. You drop your portals start of turn 3, and let him kill your WWP carriers and any remaining grotesques.

Then you come out and he dies.

Either way you play it, drop pod armies lose to this army pretty badly.

My own drop pod army can't do anything but drop in a corner and try and hide.

Doesn't work, btw.

Stelek wrote:

You fly over them in your skimmers and shoot them dead, dead, dead.

Enemy troops do not block skimmer movement so the tactic doesn't work.

Thanks a ton, Stelek.

So, what you are saying is that if all of your reserves are raiders/talos/ravagers then you never have to worry about being blocked in by enemy troops? I assume I can refer to the rule book page 70 under Skimmers to defend this claim?

If so, that is completely awesome and removes my biggest cause for concern with this army.

Thanks!

Skimmers may always move over any and all obstacles.

The only restriction is they cannot stop over impassable terrain.

This includes enemy troops (who are considered impassable terrain for the purposes of skimmer movement unless you are tank shocking them).

Talos move as skimmers but are not in fact skimmers, and would not be able to move on until you cleared a path for them to do so.

Stelek wrote:

Talos move as skimmers but are not in fact skimmers, and would not be able to move on until you cleared a path for them to do so.

Sorry, I don't understand why you say that you would need to clear a path for a Talos. Yes, I agree that a Talos is not a skimmer, but since it moves like a Skimmer and the DE Codex says that it "can move over difficult terrain without penalty", I don't understand why the Talos would be treated any differently from a Raider in this situation.

I just want to make sure I completely understand the situation. If I am wrong, please point me to the rules clarification that explains.

Thanks!

It moves like a skimmer (so it never rolls for difficult terrain) but is not really a skimmer (so it can not ignore enemy troops in the way). The GW FAQ says it is, but no one I know of has ever played it can 'float' over enemy troops.

The sheer difficulty of doing so with a large model (3-4" in any direction) and having to stay 1" away from the enemy while only having a 6" move, well I'm sure you can see the problem.

Odds are, even if you are allowed to do so in the rules (which is questionable at best), good luck actually doing so in the game.

The rules say, "Move like a skimmer" then it moves like a skimmer, i.e. it can move over enemy troops. You are correct, however, that unless the enemy is spread thin, you will have a hard time moving 6" and staying outside of 1" of the enemy. Talos are pretty bad in general though so to be safe, just don't take them.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

The rules also say it isn't a skimmer.

lol

Stelek wrote:The rules also say it isn't a skimmer.

lol

Wow, Stelek, that is a pretty unhelpful response. Please provide a book and page number to support your claim.

For example: The DE FAQ v4.0.1 (http://us.games-workshop.com/errata/errata.htm) calls it a Skimmer (4th bullet point), as well as the DE Codex p12.

I am willing to admit that the Talos is not a Skimmer, but rather a Monstrous Creature with the Skimmer special rule (as Yakface has defined it), but I am not willing to concede that the Talos cannot move over enemy troops (as difficult it may be to do with the actual models) until you provide some solid evidence.

It says that it is a skimmer for the purposes of MOVEMENT. Since MOVING over enemy troops happens in the MOVEMENT phase of the game, I think it's safe to say that it can move over enemy troops.

See, reading comprehension is your friend.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

The Talos has many exceptions in the rules. Ozy, are you able to recognize the 2nd edition flavor Gav and Jervis put into the book? Let's see who playtested the original DE and the revision here...oh yeah, I did. If you did, you'd know back then there wasn't a concept of 'ignore terrain' other than skimmers, so the skimmer wording was used. Now, you just say 'ignore difficult terrain' and be done with it. Of course, no other skimmer units (which includes Jetbikes) take 'wounds' when they end up over difficult terrain and roll a 1.

If you really want to try and fly over enemy troops, go ahead.

I've never seen anyone try. I wouldn't try and stop them from attempting to do so.

Know why? Arguing about something so meaningless as a Talos move in a game is about as stupid as this discussion is.

The intent was you could ignore terrain. There was a price to be paid if you did so. There is nothing more to it than that. You want to fly over the enemy?

Ok, you and your once-per-million event, well, enjoy your power of uber and go ahead and run over the nearest squad so you can assault it safely from the other side.

Stelek, I didn't know that you playtested the original DE and the revision... that is very interesting.

The whole reason I wanted clarification about the Talos' movement goes back to use of the WWP. I guess I am overly paranoid about this, but I am afraid of being screwed by the enemy surrounding both of my WWPs and preventing any of my reserves from coming on the board.

However, if both the Raiders and Talos can fly over enemy models, then they can't realistically surround the portals with either troops or vehicles and prevent them from coming on the board.

So, that was my whole point about trying to understand the Talos' movement.

Also, I don't see why everyone knocks the Talos so bad, especially in a WWP army. For only 100 points you get a great CC unit that usually can assault the turn it comes into play. Seems pretty good to me

The Talos isn't bad per se.

It's how opponents react to you having 3 talos in the backfield, that's what is bad.

They stay FAR away from the portal.

That negates the Talos.

And it can hurt your other units ability to get out and either shoot or assault the enemy if they're running away from the portal to avoid the Talos.

Ravagers, well, they kill more and cannot be avoided.

No one can really 'realistically' surround two portals. It itself is 'impassable' terrain so you can't park a vehicle on it or anything like that. Jetbikes or fast vehicle squadrons could make life difficult, but most people won't put such weak units near a WWP with 1500 points of DE waiting to come out and say hello.

EpilepticMoose wrote:Stelek, I didn't know that you playtested the original DE and the revision... that is very interesting.

Interesting and probably not true. If it is, I'll apologize, but I've learned not to believe everything I read on the intarwebz.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

The joy of playtesting is the part about being unable to prove it to the inernawts and abiding by the NDA.

I know, I should take out my NDA from 2000 and post it!

About as useful as posting my GT ticket badges from 1999-2005 to prove I went.

I just highly doubt that they playtested the revision.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Stelek and Ozymandias please stop with the attacks on each other and get back to discussing the list.

The playtesting lasted about a month. Maybe 6 weeks, but I don't think it was very long.

Usually it's 3-6 months for a Codex and 12-18 months for a new edition.

Unless it's Gav, then it's 1/3 the time.

Suggestions were highly emphatically made about:

The Jetbikes getting +1 attack.
The Hellions getting assault weapons and a 4+ save.
The Talos getting a slightly better weapon.
Ravagers being reduced to two weapons.
Raiders getting a higher transport capacity.
Mandrakes getting squad leaders.
Haemoniculi moving to elite.
Scourges getting a 4+ save and moving to fast.

That's about all I remember.

See any of that?

Yeah, me either. Woulda been nice. Coulda made different lists.

Sounds like alot of stuff the DE community would love in the codex.

Stelek I dont know why you dont look favorably on the Wyches, I used a wych cult to a nasty capacity and managed to get 3rd at Adepticon 2006 gladiator. They arent a suicide squad but more like an anti-assault squad more like it.

Lots of people use Wyches.

There are lots of ways to stop Wyches.

It's very difficult to stop being shot to pieces.

So, I prefer the Warriors over the Wyches.

Wyches are better off as a counter charge unit but losing the wyches to shooting means they havent shot my lances. Damned if you do, damned if you dont.

Stelek wrote:There are lots of ways to stop Wyches.

It's very difficult to stop being shot to pieces.

How do you figure? It's virtually impossible to get shot at. You can charge practically anywhere you like, the first turn they come in. Come to think about it, the only combat unit less shootable than wyches in a raider and WWP is harlies in a falcon.

Also, what are the 'lots of ways to stop them'?

-Leo037

I've said it before, but I'll give you a quick rundown on how you stop wyches.

Spread your army out.

Find the 12" point from the WWP.

Put a unit there. If you have vehicles, send them forward.

If you have cheap troops, send them forward.

Sit about 9" from the portal. Raiders can't jump over you, so they end up being 7" away with Wyches getting no fleet rolls (where ya gonna fleet?) and very weak assault moves (you know where they are going to go).

I've used this tactic many a time against Wych army lists.

Once the Wyches are out, shoot down the transports. When the Wyches come past your throwaway units, kill them in the shooting phase. If you are 24" away, Wyches without the 12" assault move simply cannot get to you, and die easily.

I've had quite a few Wych players kill their 300-500 points of sacrificial units, then hide and wait for the game to end while I shot everything in sight.

Anytime you make the choice for the Wych player on what he will assault on his big opening deployment, you've won.

I hope you know what happens when Wyches go fast in their raiders to get past the trap you've set.

A shooty raider force is immune to this, because the warriors on board can kill the close stuff while the raiders fire long range shots at the rest of your army--or move *backwards*, knock out your sacrifice, then come out and hit the rest of your army the next turn.

Hope that helps.

What I don't understand is how you achieve that vs two WWPs. You can't realistically protect your army from both points and all points in between unless you're very fast and/or have very few models in your army.

Most wych armies also have substantial shooting as well: 2-3 ravagers plus a couple warrior squads plus lots of raiders.

What do you do when the wych player daisy-chain charges your throwaway units and finishes them off durring your assault phase? Now you've just sacrificed a couple of units to delay the charge for one turn and you've given what little board control you had at all up and totally boxed yourself in your deployment zone. If you use vehicles to 'block' the WWP, then the wych player will just throw his army against it --kill them-- and hide behind the wreaks to assault you next turn. Besides, you'll need at least two vehicle squadrons to reliably stop them from just going around, something that most competitive armies don't have. Don't pretend they they won't be assaulting next turn either, and if they don't, they sure as hell don't let you shoot them. Ever heard of 1/4 terrain?

What do you do when the DE player does get the 12" charge drug? Better yet, what about when they field Lylith and just decide to get the 12" charge?

Sounds like you've been playing DE players who've just figured out how their army generally works, and then play the same way every game and just give up when it gets countered instead of thinking. Not to say they're bad players --just in a rut.

It's not a bad tactic, but it's not nearly the uncounterable I win button you laud it as.

-Leo037

I have to agree with Stelek, and seeing his comments on other threads I know where he's coming from. I often run an all infantry guard list, and I have so many units that wyches aren't a real threat. Sure, they charge in and kill a unit or two I've left up front to prevent them from getting too close, but then you just shoot them up. I wouldn't (depending on the exact situation) even bother shooting the raiders first...that just gives terrain for the wyches to hide behind. Who cares if a non-scoring raider shoot a DL at my infantry every turn? The wyches are all that can really hurt me, so shoot them all and call it a day.