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I played a game recently against space wolves, I took a 4 Plasma Cannon Dev Sqd and it easily the most effective squad that I played, in both the amount of points it earned back and that it limited my opponents to concentrate and overwhelm. So I was just wondering why I don't hear about these weapons more often in the Dakka forums. Because at a 36" range, str 7 ap 2 blast, they are a MEQs army's nightmare.

The only thing i can think of is A) A lascannon doesn't hurt you if you roll a 1 and B) Lascannon has better range. I might just have to try the 4 Plasma Cannons myself though.

Plasma cannons are kind of hit or miss weapons. If you are going up against MEQ armies, they can be rather deadly. However they have a few problems. First off, they tend to be a bit on the expensive side. While this isn’t a killer, it does drag down their usefulness a bit. The second is that they get hot. This means that 1 out of ever 6 shots has a chance of killing you and mathematically speaking, about 6% of your shots do actually kill you. This may not seem like a lot, but if you think about 4 guys shooting for 6 turns (a generous allotment if they really are a threat to your enemy) that averages out to 1.3 of your guys dead due to overheats every game. The final factor in them not being the best thing ever is the fact that blast templates are not all that great. Since the rules specify that you have to center the template over a model, it’s fairly easy for your opponent to spread his troops out to minimize your hits. In addition, you have to fire all the shots at the same target and they are resolved sequentially. So after the first template blows a hole in the squad (your opponent can remove casualties from anywhere in the squad remember) it will get harder and harder to get many enemy models under the later templates. Finally, as with any low ap weapon, the effectiveness of it can be significantly mitigated by keeping prime targets for the weapon in cover. Marines in cover are only slightly more bothered by plasma cannons than they are by heavy bolters. Marines in the open however, are smoking piles of slag.

So in the end, unless your opponent is bad and doesn’t properly defend himself against plasma cannons, they end up not being all that great. If, on the other hand, your opponent doesn’t know what to do against them, then they can be hell on wheels against MEQ armies.

The reason I don't bring lascannons or plasma cannons in my dev squads is the cost. at 50 points a model, it's just really expensive.

35 points for Lascannon or Plasma Cannon
vs
20 for a ML
or 15 for a HB


The gets hot sucks, and when you're shooting off 4 pops around, it does start to be a factor, but you're still only losing a marine around 5% of the time.

I recently put together some plasma cannon guys and I was thinking about running them just to try it out. It is a lot of dakka. Has anyone done this with success?

I forgot to multiply that 5% by 4 marines...

Don't forget that Space Marines have a 3+ save and that you have to fail that save before the Plasma Cannon wounds its wielder. Basically you have to roll a 1 followed by a 1 or 2. Their S7 lets them do light anti-vehicle work, particular against open-topped vehicles, and they can eat hordes (that 2+ to wound beats the usual 4+ that you get with frag missiles).

Unless you have a very good reason to take heavy bolters (facing hordes) all Dev squads ought to be missile launcher based. With four missile launchers you get a very good return against any opponent except Deathwing.

It also uses up your missile launchers, of which you will have a fair few if you collect marines. Meanwhile Tactical squads are normally lascannon armed, with some occassional heavy bolters seen. This leads to the ironic situation where your Tactical marine boxsets provides Devastator heavy weapons, while your Devastator boxsets provide Tactical heavy weapons.

Plasma cannon dont really have a place here. Though with the trend of points changes occuring that is intended to change most players would still prefer to shell out 5pts extra for a lascannon than get plasma. Especially if 10 men are required for as heavy weapon. with 150pts minimum invested in a squad, more where Vet Sgts are mandatory, the extra few points for the best gun becomes a no brainer. If BA and DA prices are to be the new standard, missile launchers only become more entrenched as the Dev squad weapon of choice, as heavy bolters go up in price to match them.

I think Plasma Cannons will be taken more often in BA and DA armies once 5th edition hits. In Devastator squads they cost 25pts compared to the Lascannons 35, and with the new blast rules i can see them making their points back quite fast.

Phoenix wrote:Since the rules specify that you have to center the template over a model,

Are you sure?

As I recall, the rule only states that the center of the template must be over an enemy model:
{ xxxxx-model (}center )

That is very different from saying the template must be centered:
{ xxx (center) model }

Yes?

I think people might change their tunes if Blast weapons work as rumoured in the 5th edition. If they just scatter, and hit like Template weapons, then Plasma Cannons will definitely be worth the points.

It seems to me that Space Marine Heavy Weapons are structured as:

Basic Anti-Infantry: Heavy Bolter
Basic Anti-Tank: Multi-Melta
Basic Flexible: Missile Launcher
Advanced Flexible: Plasma Cannon
Advanced Anti-Tank: Lascannon

They're nice against deep-striking termies and the like. Otherwise, I'd rather have a missile launcher. It's got a higher strength, and is half the price. Any competant player will at most let you get 1-2 partials, which in the current rules is just not worth the price hike for a lower S weapon. Missile launchers also have frag missiles, and a horde list is much more likely to be forced to clump anyways.

As a marine player, I'm much more worried about 4 plasma guns in a havoc squad. They're mobile and can rapid-fire, which is far more deadly.

Think of it this way: If a Missile Launcher is using Krak Missiles against Space Marines, it's a single 2+ to wound with no save. A Plasma Cannon that hits, by contrast, requires at least one 2+ to wound and perhaps more.

If a Missile Launcher is using Frag Missiles against Space Marines, it's at least one 4+ to wound followed by a 3+ to save, and against stuff like Orks, Genestealers, and Termagants the 2+ to wound with no armour save is still better.

And against the plethora of Obliterators that people sometimes take, a squad of Plasma Cannon toting Devastators is great. While they don't instant kill, they do deny their Sv2+, and a sequence of blasts against W2 models is a killer.

The old "any competent player" argument only goes so far given the options open to players to force their opponent to close ranks. The most obvious method of forcing an opponent to close ranks is Tank Shock. Another method is having an assault force that can win combats by kill-zone sniping. Orks and Tyranid broods are particularly vulnerable since they have to be jammed in tight, and Swarms are Vulnerable to Blasts.

Sure, a S8 hit may be able to longshot Armour 14, but those occur in armies filled with Sv3+ troops that are more dangerous. Necrons in particular are better swept away with Plasma Cannons rather than wasting firepower on Monoliths. Even against Eldar the AP2 of the Plasma Cannon is better when facing Wraithguard, Wraithlords, Aspect Warriors, Jetbikes, and so on, and the lower Strength makes little difference to Skimmers Moving Fast.

Compared to Plasma Guns they're also safer since they only get one shot, whereas a Plasma Gun that rapid fires will overheat on a 1 or 2 while rolling two dice!

Edit: Incidentally, JohnHwangDD is right. "If a hit is scored take the Blast marker and place it over the target unit so that one model is under the hole to see how many models are affected."

i've always liked plasma cannons in tactical squads. primarily they keep my opponent honest as i don't want him free to clump his units up. they also add more firepower to the squad then a lascannon unless i'm shooting at armor. i don't really like wasting bolter shots, so i prefer to put my AT elsewhere. also i play dark angels so plasma is relatively cheaper for me.

i might do things differently if the 6 man las/plas squads were an option though.

Hmm, well I just tried it out against a pure Khorne Chaos Marine list, except this time I took three squads of 4, in a 2000 point list. By the Emperor that was hilarious, I set up in my back feild with as little cover as possible around me to make an effective kill zone. So once he came into range and got out of the cover I was wasting about 1 and a half squads a turn. And I only sufferred two overheats that killed me, They ended up killing somewhere around 40 berserkers of Khorne while the rest of my list, (tac squads in rhinos, companyvets and a comp commander) mopped up.

Over all I think I shall take at least two devs with all plasma from now on, seeing as I face MEQs more than any other list, and they are still decently effective against nidzilla.

Something that I was thinking of for my Blood Angels Devastators was taking two Plasma Cannons and two Lascannons, and splitting them between the Combat Squads. The only problem I have with Plasma Cannons is that I want my Marine army to be playable as either Chaos or Blood Angels.

Call them blast masters?

You can't take Blastmasters in Havoc squads. But you can take Autocannons. Since Plasma Cannons are basically high tech Autocannons it might work, but it's a stretch.

Plasma cannons just aren't worth it in dev squads. Marines just don't need that much AP2 shooting. They're marines! They can kill each other just fine. Take a Vindi or assault squad instead.

3/4 ML, 3/4 HB and 2/3 Lascannons all have their place in dev squads.

plasma cannons make for interesting tac squads, but lascannons are better.

Now if you wanted a full out gunline one squad of plasma cannons might be worth it.

Well, they're probably as effective as a unit of 4 HBs, but a lot more flexible because they can own light vehicles and are better against MCs. They have the same range so thats not a problem, they can hit probably as many as a unit of 4 HB devs and certainly kill more of them due to the higher strength.

They'd be more effective than an equivalent number of Heavy Bolters against infantry thanks to the higher Strength and AP, and they're more flexible thanks to the higher Strength, but they'd also be more expensive and risky. Depends on your budget and willingness to take risks, I think.

I think their flexibility makes them worth mixing in with other Heavy weapons to save a few points, or if a flexible squad is what you want. Plasma Cannons would combine well with Missile Launchers for the aforementioned anti-vehicle, Heavy Bolters for anti-infantry (to avoid the thinning effect but without sacrificing the Strength and AP entirely), and Multi-Meltas for anti-monster.

See the new one below.

I got three games in with a set 4 plasma cannons in a dev squad. I found that I would rather just have HB's or ML's. Its not the over heating, its the points cost of the unit. You can get 3 whirlwinds for about the same price. I can agree that if you where to go gunline it might be a place for them. Mainly taking out deep striking termies and oblits.

.02

Ok, so just for kicks I re-ran the numbers using a DA codex trying to maximize the number of plasma shots that can be taken using a standard Force Organization Chart. (2 HQ, 3 Elite, 6 Troop, 3 Fast Attck, 3 Heavy Support)

What I found was really kind of funny......

So here goes. In a maxed Plasma list the DAs can put out:

115 Plasma Cannons
14 Plasma Guns
36 Plasma Pistols
1 Combi-Plasma Bolter

Coming to a total of 11250 pts.

So at 12" they can put out.

115 PC Blasts
28 Plasma Gun Shots
72 Plasma Pistol Shots

Lol

How do you get 115 plasma cannon in one Force Org?

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Phoenix wrote:Since the rules specify that you have to center the template over a model,

Are you sure?

As I recall, the rule only states that the center of the template must be over an enemy model:
{ xxxxx-model (}center )

That is very different from saying the template must be centered:
{ xxx (center) model }

Yes?

You are splitting hairs over semantics here, but so long as the hole is completely over the target's base, it is legal. While this gives you a couple of millimeters of extra wiggle room when shooting at troops, I don't find that it's all that significant.

One thing that the plasma cannon provides better than just about anything else…deep strike insurance. If plasma cannons can see deep strikers after they have landed in their nice base to base concentric circles, they are going to die...a lot. While this doesn’t necessarily mean that they are worth taking, it does mean that against deep strike armies, they will be very useful. Armies that rely on transports will also be in a similar situation since once they disembark they end up in a tight bunch. Transported units have a slight advantage though since the transport (assuming it isn’t a skimmer) can be used to block line of sight between the unit and the plasma cannons.

S7 is pretty handy against Rhinos, Wave Serpents, and Falcons, while Blast does evil things to Trukks and Raiders. Bounce right off Land Raiders, Leman Russes, and Battlewagons though.

"How do you get 115 plasma cannon in one Force Org?"

In the DA codex the Techmarines are not actually part of the FOC, you can take one for every non dedicated transport vehicle in your list.

So this is the list you use.

Sammael on his speeder. (vehicle)

Three Dreads with Plasma Cannon

Six Raven wing Attack squads with attached landspeeder.

3 full raveen wing support squads with 5 landspeeders

Then you can take either 3 Devs with all plasma or thre vehicles. (I chose thre preds)

Which gives you a total of 28 vehicles. And thus you take 28 Techmarins.

each techmarine can take 4 servitors so you arm them with plasma cannons.

and viola, you get 115 plasma cannons in one FOC

You know, I seem to remember when everyone LOVED taking plasma cannons, and kinda lost prominence to the lascannon when they changed the way a blast marker hit (ie... less partials).

It's popularity seems to wax and wane with how "effective" (God, I hate that word) a blast template is.

Gee, people like to use a weapon more when it's good and like to use it less when it sucks? What a surprise!