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I've been working at retooling my Eldar a bit and have played a few games with the 5th ed PDF. One thing that really struck out with me is Flanking, Deep Striking and voluntarily putting units in reserve.

With the FAQ, 2 Autarchs can give up to a +2 to the reserve roll IE: rolling a 2+ for Reserves on turn 2. As this really increases the probabilty of units coming from reserve, it really helps to synch units together to perform specific tasks. With this in mind, an army build I keep revisiting seems to work on paper with everything taken into context. I've not built in point values yet as this is a rough draft at the moment:

Autarch, Jump Generator, Fusion Gun, Mandiblaster, Power Weapon (goes with Warp Spider as IC's will be able to attach to units in reserve)
Autarch, Bike, Eldar missile Launcher, Powerlance, Mandiblaster (attach to Shining Spears)

10 Warp Spiders including Exarch, Powerblades, Dual Death Spinners, Deep Strike and Withdraw
10 Striking Scorpions including Exarch, Move Through Cover, Infiltrate (most likely to be used to flank)

4 Jetbikes
4 Jetbikes
4 Jetbikes
8 Pathfinders
8 Pathfinders

5 Shining Spears including Exarch, Star Lance, Hit and Run, Skilled Rider

3 x 3 War Walkers all with Eldar Missile Launchers

Everything but the Pathfinders would set up in Reserve/Deep Strike/Flanking. The army would now be vulnerable to Psychic Powers as I'd not have Runes of Warding on the table. I've always had trouble against Lysanderwing and all Drop Podding style armies b/c it was always so difficult to predict where the armies would land. I think this style army would work just as well.

Thoughts, criticisms, madness?????

Sounds interesting. I'll refrain from theoryhammer until I've seen it (or similar) in practice.

One thing I can say that isn't theoryhammer is that the WS Autarch is probably not worthwhile. When all's said, adding another 5-6 S3 PW attacks isn't great for the cost. I've tried him a few times with little success--usually it's a much better idea to just make sure a real CC unit is nearby than to try to buff the CC ability of the squad itself.

Here's an idea: how about adding an Yriel(-equivalent) instead? He can Infiltrate with the Scorps (if it's true that ICs can join squads before entering play) and make them really, really nasty.

Interesting points.

-Valid point regarding the Autarch and Warp Spiders. My intent was to assist in the inevitable assault the following turn and to add an additional anti armor element to the unit. But, considering the unit can jump after deep striking may keep them out of range (deep strike, shoot, jump in assault phase just sounds wickedly evil)

-Attaching Yriel sounds cool, but I'm unsure if the Infiltrate (Flank) manuever would pass over to him. However, Karandaras is very doable with no debate.

Thanks for the input.

Yes, but Karandras isn't an Autarch. I thought the whole idea was to exploit the +2?

Upon checking my codex, I realise that there's a specific prohibition against Infiltrating an Autarch. Too bad.

Yeah, I'm out of town and am unable to playtest right now. But, you are right, the two Autarch is my intent. When you posted Yriel, I forgot all about him actually being an Autarch.


What about one of the Autarch's sitting with a unit of Pathfinders using a Reaper Launcher. It appears it may have some synergy with the sniper weapons.

By "Powerlance" you mean "Laser Lance" right?

Why would you put a Reaper Launcher on a Jetbike-mounted Exarch?

Move shoot move. with an ap-3 weapon.

I have one on mine.

You can't fire a Heavy weapon when you move unless it's mounted on the jetbike...

Can you provide the rule that specifies it needs to be on the bike. IIRC (don't have the rulebook), one rider may fire one weapon on a bit (SM attack bike giving both Marines the ability to fire one weapon each as an example).

As far as I know, it is perfectly legal for the Autarch to fire the Reaper Launcher

Yes, I meant Laser Lance (don't have the relevant books with me as I'm out of town).

The more I think about this type of army, the more I'm really intrigued about playing it in Baltimore in November.

Nurglitch wrote:You can't fire a Heavy weapon when you move unless it's mounted on the jetbike...

I disagree with that assessment in the current rules, but let's not bother with that argument since this discussion is about the potential 5th edition rules.

In 5th edition bikes look just to have the 'relentless' special rule, so all references to "bike mounted" weaponry are gone. So yes, an autarch with a Reaper Launcher should be able to move and fire it in 5th edition.

Nurglitch wrote:You can't fire a Heavy weapon when you move unless it's mounted on the jetbike...

Incorrect. Bikes can move and shoot heavy weapons. No requirement for them to be mounted. Rapid fire weapons have a mounting requirement to count as stationary.

If points allow, I'd like to add some Vypers to the list (also with Missile Launchers). There would be no worry about losing any on turn 1 regardless of terrain rules. With 48 inch shooting range, I should be able to avoid getting knocked down by bolters, heavy bolters, pulse rifles and such...

Even though Vypers will not be scoring units, will they still have a place in 5th? (I ask mainly b/c I think the model looks very cool).

I really like the idea of this list, but I have absolutely no familiarity with the 5th ed. changes except from kill points and troops as scoring [do jetbikes still count too?]....

As for the autarch situation, why don't you just get two on bikes. You have enough bike squads as it is, and on foot they are not nearly as useful without transport. Yriel is really nice, but a little too expensive to babysit pathfinders. two autarchs with reapers could be good, either on bikes or without.

Just some thoughts. You could even have a squad of harlies babysitting the pathfinders, maybe with attached autarch. just more crazy ideas.

cheers

ibushi

Ironically, I played in the Greensville tourney with two Autarchs on Jetbikes. Ummm, yeah, that was a learning experience. To be honest, I simply did not know how to run them and had no synergy to the list. I even tried for the first time the ever popular triple Holofield list. Yeah, i had horrible luck with that as my opponents all had the tendency to roll 5,5/5,6/6,6 on the glancing charts every game. Yeah, a lot of points that did not do much for me. Granted, this was under 4th edition rules.

I've got four different Autarch models now and mainly just want to build a different army than my current army, which I've been playing for the last 4 or so years. (IE: no Eldrad and company which has been the staple of my army since the 3rd edition codex). All of the Autarch models are mobile (wings, jump generator, 2 x bikes)

The big deal with 5th and this army concept is how everything can be held in reserve/deep strike/reserve and how the Autarchs can create a synergy. War Walkers seem to be a very good way to go, combined with Flanking and cover saves for vehicles. They won't be scoring, but I think the Eldar Missile Launcher will be a very utilitarian weapon to keep my opponent from being able to put scoring units on objectives.

This concept is a complete departure from my normal army. Eldar have been one of my favorite armies and models ever since 1st edition. This list gives me another reason to get back to painting more of them and trying to play something that may be atypical for perceived Eldar armies. Ironically, nothing in the army will have a poor save (mostly 3+ armor saves and 2+ cover saves for Pathfinders, thanks to most cover giving a 4+ save). Very different from my typical Guarian horde.

Time will tell. Plus, GW actually LOWERED the cost of the special edition Pathfinder model. I really like that model and need to get a few to fill out my Pathfinder units. Interestingly enought, most of the models in the army are units I've never painted or haven't painted in several years, so I'm not expecting my interest to wane getting them done. (of course, not to the standard of your insane Samarai themed Eldar).

See you soon. I still need a rematch to try and redeem myself from the last spanking you gave me.

ibushi wrote:I really like the idea of this list, but I have absolutely no familiarity with the 5th ed. changes except from kill points and troops as scoring [do jetbikes still count too?]....

Im learning 4th and 5th at the same time atm (from pdf 5th) but my understanding is that 5th is troops only.. and no vehicles as scoring units.

So guardians on jetbikes wouldnt be scoring units.

Guardian jetbikes are troops.

skyth wrote:Guardian jetbikes are troops.

They are not classed as vehicles?

If thats right then i may consider getting some for my own army once 5th officially released and confirmed that only non-vehicle troops score

Eldar jetbikes are definitively not classified as vehicles.

My understanding to date is that they would be a unit that is able to hold objectives. If not, my army concept would need some more work (as well as many other Eldar and Ravenwing players).

no, Jetbikes are good you should use them and give Games Workshop all your money.

Whether they are able to score or not, jetbikes will be able to contest objectives, according to the new 5th rumors at Bell of Lost Souls.

If bikes don't score, the potential weakness of the setup you have is not denying objectives to the enemy, but seizing them yourself. Pathfinders just don't do a lot of moving, and if they get caught in the open while hoofing it for an objective (which they really shouldn't do, but might have to to score), they're going to get shredded.

Whether bikes score or not, trading one of those units of Pathfinders for DA's in a Serpent or 2x Guardians on foot is a good idea to give you some more-mobile scorers. Pathfinders may be able to sit on an objective in your own deployment or that they can infiltrate onto, but they won't be going anywhere else if you want them to shoot (and stay alive).

Well thats all very reassuring, I'm not completely depressed about getting objectives now I guess. And obviously having maxed out, super speedy troops should be about a solid a chance any Eldar player will get at scoring objectives..Oh, one more question about it actually. If troops are in their dedicated transport, sitting on an objective, do they still get to hold it? This could be scary for mech armies.

Anyway, back on to the army. The idea of having everything off table, but with a 2+ roll-on would be extremely effective in pretty much every situation. For starters the fact you can choose to roll-on at 4+ or 2+ on turn 2, depending on how your opponent is looking, the fact that everything moves and shoot with really good range [i fully support EMLs here, I have always been a big fan of them!] makes for a very effective army as soon as you roll on. The fact you don't have to worry for even a second about terrain in your deployment zone to hide behind/fire lanes/what your opponent is doing is pretty much great. No matter where they deploy you can choose to massively deny them shots at you, or you can really aggressively roll up one side - the true eldar way! If I steal and use this concept I will not feel guilty.
Oh and when you get around to points crunching put your lists up right away!
ibushi

Working w/o the codex, so, it's a bit difficult to get exact points. Wait a minute, I don't want to face off against it back home....

Looking at my existing Ulthwe army, 5th looks to be bolstering my Seer Council a bit (as well as the FAQ)

-units in a tank only count as one unit when redeploying with Eldrad's Divination (I always played it as two seperate units).
-Embolden helps w/ psychic tests
-5th may allow some psychic powers to be cast from within tanks.

Eldrad w/ Warlock retinue and Fuegan, all in a Wave Serpent.

Divination helps move the whole group into a good position of attack or defense. Eldrad can cast Fortune on the tank, fortune on the whole unit inside the tank. First, hunt for armor. Cast guide and fortune again, jump out with several re-roll Singing Spears and a re-roll Firepike (which ignores cover saves and is AP1).

Once out and (hopefully) smacked the armor, it is still a formadable assault unit, especially with Embolden/Enhance.

It's a lot of points, but it can still contest objectives and take a lot of abuse and still keep coming.

its not a bad idea at all. Even if its a bit pricey, I could see you using that to screw up your opponents pretty badly. I don't think I would want to repaint all my warlocks and farseers to play this mega unit, but i can see its merits.
On the other hand, Fuegan is not bad, but is really expensive just for that role. An autarch would probably be better, especially considering his invul. and +1 to reserves [which could also really help this squad a la your other idea]. In a 2k game this squad would be fun, but any less i would probably opt out, and i would playtest lots before tournament play. I just don't know how effective it would be for the points in reality.

On another note, morphing your idea a little has been fun, I really really like the deploy-nothing, turn 2 2+ game opening play. It removes the horrible Eldar element of deployment. I often find deploying 24ish" away is great, having terrain is great, but getting 2nd turn is Horrible, and being cornered is really nasty. With this idea you can pick and choose what terrain you want, within 24" of your board edge for bikes, or a little different for walkers of course. But the whole fire-lane denying, flank charge denying aspect is really fun. Also, do you think 2 autarchs lets you get a 1+ on turn 3? haha i doubt it!!

Hmmm, I don't think I'd try that one (1+) at a tourney, but there are a few guys I'd like to see how they react to it. They are such haters of Elves in Space, and just assume the roll of a 1+ is legit, but just another cheesy Eldar tactic.

I was looking at the GW website getting ideas of cost for this army update. I didn't even know it, but you can get aspect warriors in blister packs now (2 models per blister). Helps when trying to get 20 Warp Spiders.

The army is coming. I'm shooting to have it all completed for the Baltimore GT

Alright i had a lot of fun morphing your idea to my theme, but this is what i came up with really fast: [bear in mind the theme is secret and not to be disclosed, but influenced some of the unit choices]

2x Autarch: bike, powerweapon/lance, fusion/reaper,mandihat

3x3 Jetbikes w 1 cannon
10 guardians w BL

5 Shining Spears - Exarch:Withdraw, Skilled Rider, Star Lance, Shuriken Cannon [both Autarchs attached!! oh noes]

3 EML walkers
3 EML walkers
3 SL walkers

~1500

the units come up to about 1430, not including the autarch's ranged weapons. So they could be decked out for a squad that comes on the board where ever i choose, shooting 2 BS5 reapers and a BS5 shuri-cannon, or they could all forgo range and save about 65 points for another guardian jetbike squad. So the last 70 points are fairly flexible, but the general outline is there.
For 1500pts this is some pretty mad firepower, and also a really destructive CC element. I hope my points are all in order!!
As for tactics, I think everything will be in reserve except for the guardians, who act as a kind of bait, and snipe tanks maybe...Then the rest of the army comes on where ever most effective, probably all on turn 2, so combine arms in a massive flank attack.

comments, suggestions, crit.?? all welcome. Sorry sarigar for totally hijacking, but I would love your feedback

No problem at all.

Damn. I'm not sure I want to face that at 1500 points; lot of shooting. If you have any luck like I do, I'd look at Warlock(s) w/ Embolden, but I'm uncertain where to draw points from. In one of the missions, one objective will be in your deployment zone. Footslogging Guardians would be a logical unit to hold it. However, I'd leave them in Reserve with the rest of the army in some cases. Why have them be exposed to enemy fire unnecessarily?

Withdraw (hit and run) is still pretty good for Eldar, but you need to be aware the unit will need to roll against the Initiative to get out of combat. I don't know if it is equal to or less or simply less than the initiative stat.

The Autarch bonuses can be applied or not used which is huge for flexibility. I learned the hard way playing against the Lysanderwing. This can really help your main assault focus; waiting just long enough to get your opponent close enough to your own table edge to get a good assault in. The big thing to remember are the changes to assault. The assault could be over the turn you charge and you can not consolidate into another unit. This could leave a very niche unit very exposed. However, I like the idea of two Reaper Launchers in the unit.

I get back home the end of next month and can't wait to get started on this project. I would really like to get to playtesting this idea as I think it's flexible enough to give any army a good challenge.

I think the biggest difficulty in trying to make a new Eldar army concept right now is that, aside from being in China with no 40k to speak of, I have never seen the 5th ed pdf, and don't really know what the changes are except for what people have moaned about on the board recently. That being the case, I keep forgetting about the assualt changes etc, which is a very good point. It might even be worth dropping spears for a council on bikes, and swapping an autarch for a farseer. But in this case the points go up considerably, and the craziness of two autarchs goes down a lot. So with this in mind I might just switch the spears to a normal guardian bike squad, but with attached warlock. Or I might attach an Autarch to a bike squad each [with warlocks], and have them charge in. As for lances vs. power weapons i'm not sure.

This is allvery tricky to work out in my head without any playtesting of 5th ed whatsoever..!! but i agree that it has a lot of potential to be quite nasty, and that the optional reserve bonus makes a big difference. With that in mind, forgoing one autarch is not so bad. The chance you want to bring in everything on turn 2 is not particularly high really...but from turn 3 you would get 2+ rolls anyway. Maybe its time for a farseer to make those war walkers really dish out the hurt..

Well keep the ideas coming, I am definitely enjoying this think tank we have going. Although today i go on holiday for a while so i don't know when I'll next be online. Till then!

oh what about a 3man spear squad with s-cannon exarch[Maybe withdraw, but not necessarily], with 2 attached power wep/ reaper autarchs. This squad would put out 4 BS5 reaper shots and 3 BS5 cannon shots a turn, with JSJ, and could pack a punch, but with just power weapons and a small spears squad, probably wouldn't annihilate opponents. I suppose lances would work too. Maybe one of each. Just thinking out loud as the annihilation and lack of consolidating into new opponent problem is pretty big.

If you want it for shooting purposes, wouldn't just using Eldar Jetbikes w/ the Autarchs fit better? Spears are pretty expensive, especially when relegating them more or less to shooting. Not being able to consolidate into other units after assault really has me scratching my head. I'm not sure I really want a lot of dedicated assault elements as shooting really is improved (LOS changes and wound allocations specifically).

Trying to narrow the army down a bit:

2 x Autarch, Jump Generator, PW, Fusion Gun

2 x 10 Warp Spiders, Exarch, Powerblades, Twin Deathspinner, Withdraw, Suprise Assault

8 Scorpions, Exarch, Infiltrate, Move Through Cover

10 Guardians, EML, Warlock, Embolden
4 Jetbikes
4 Jetbikes

3 x Warwalkers w/ Eldar Missile Launcher
3 x Warwalkers w/ Eldar Missile Launcher
Wraithlord w/ EML, Brightlance

I may be a bit over 1750 at this point, so I need to trim it a bit. (I haven't calculated exact points for the Autarchs and Warp Spiders). Most likely, I'd drop the Scorpions down first, then start removing Warp Spiders from each unit to get the army to fit.