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I got to read the new rulebook yesterday. Here's one gem:

For multi-wound models, you have to try and remove whole models first. However, because the wound allocation system is done on a model-by-model basis, if the models all have different weapons/equipment, then even if they're multi-wound models, you have to put the wound on the model that actually took the wound.

That means that you can run nob squads that can divide the first wounds they take among all the members, before you start to remove any models.

Example:
If I had 5 nobs w/ powerklaws and took three wounds, I'd lose one nob, and have a wound on another.

But, if I have 5 nobs w/ powerklaws, and one has a waaagh banner, one has a bosspole, one has a combi-skorcha, and one has eavy armour, then those three wounds get applied individually among the models, so I don't remove anyone.

Applied to the extreme, you can get the following extremely-hard-to-kill unit:

Nobs on Warbikes, cybork bodies
1) Painboy
2) Nob w/ Powerklaw
3) Nob w/ Powerklaw, bosspole, kombi-skorcha
4) Nob w/ Powerklaw, bosspole
5) Nob w/ Powerklaw, kombi-skorcha
5) Nob w/ Big Choppa
6) Nob w/ Big Choppa, bosspole
7) Nob w/ Big Choppa, kombi-skorcha
8) Nob w/ Big Choppa, kombi-skorcha, bosspole
9) Nob w/ Big Choppa, waaagh banner

As no two models are the same, you get to allocate wounds to specific models and don't have to remove men until each individual model has taken his own two wounds. Combined with the T(5), 4+ cover/5+ inv save, and Feel-no-pain from the doc, you have a unit that's probably not going anywhere anytime soon...

Yeah, this'll be a pain.

Minor note: wouldn't it be better to use things like kombi-rokkits and the normal choppa + slugga to differentiate them rather than an excess of bosspoles?

Man, the book isn't even out for sale and folks have already picked up on mechanic issues. After one read.

Wow. Why doesn't GW really outsource their playtesting on broad scale? One would think these things would be caught early on.

**Writes the Ork combo down to see if it will fit in my army**

go big choppas.

That's all you got out of the rulebook?

Man you gotta read harder.

There are lots of stupid 5th edition tricks...alot more than this one, which isn't really a trick it's just a bad game mechanic.

It's actually ALOT of fun to do this on swarms. Slows the game way the feth down when you have a bunch of rippers swarms getting shot at. Wait...I need another dice for the 18th wound. Nope, nobody is dead yet.

Stelek wrote:That's all you got out of the rulebook?

Man you gotta read harder.

Again with the hostility...

As it happens, the staff at the GW shop yesterday were allowing people exactly 5 minutes to look at the book, with a timer. I don't know what sort of perverse pleasure they got out of this, but it's not exactly like there was a lot of time to 'read harder'. And, of course it isn't the only thing I saw, however, other people have posted many of the other things I noted. The fact that I posted this doesn't mean that's all I got out of it, it means it's something I saw that I noticed hadn't been posted before.

Wasn't being hostile. If you had said 'I only had 5 minutes to read the book' I wouldn't have made a joke.

JOKE.

The internet is famous for it's lack of ability to convey emotion, which is why god invented smily ork faces.

Had you included a smily ork face , I would have taken your comment as a joke . It's hard to read humour into a put-down when you are so frequently hostile in other threads.

How you take my brand of humor is up to you.

I'm not hostile frequently.

I'm taken as hostile frequently--even with smiley faces. Which I use frequently.

Hmmm...frequently is the word for today, kids.

Stelek-Hmmm...frequently is the word for today, kids.

But I can't spell it, so I will have to quote you Sir, lol..

As for dirty, rules talootin-cheeze-what else do we have?

Hmm, I won't call it stupid or cheesy, but some tactics seem to be emerging.

Protect the Lootas: Focus on getting the best lane of fire, then surround the Lootas with Grots so they get a 4+ cover save.

Protect the rest of the boyz: Put up a bunch of Grots and attach a Mek w/ KFF. Grots get a 5+ and the Boyz get a 4+.

Eldar army that starts with nothing on the table, yet can deepstrike/out of reserve/flank starting turn 2 on a 2+.

Emperor's Tarot, Callidus Assasin and 3 Excorcists seem even more usable.

Yriel jumping into combat, everyone counter attacks, then he uses his special ability. This is done, now, but 5th makes it even easier to pull off.

Again, not calling any of it cheesy or broken, just trying to adjust with 5th in mind.

Stelek wrote:
It's actually ALOT of fun to do this on swarms. Slows the game way the feth down when you have a bunch of rippers swarms getting shot at. Wait...I need another dice for the 18th wound. Nope, nobody is dead yet.

Wouldn't the swarms have to have different equipment for this to work? I am not familiar with the 5th ed rules, is there some caveat regarding swarms?

My understanding is that you are right, swarms would require to be dissimilar in order for that to work.

Stelek wrote:

It's actually ALOT of fun to do this on swarms. Slows the game way the feth down when you have a bunch of rippers swarms getting shot at. Wait...I need another dice for the 18th wound. Nope, nobody is dead yet.

The rule he refers to only applies to models with different stats and/or equipment. If all the models have the same stats you take all their saves together as a big group and then apply the unsaved wounds to any model in that group (following the normal rule for having to kill of models when possible).

I know the earlier leaked PDF didn't have the rule about rolling all 'like models' together as one group so maybe this is a very new rule you haven't tested yet? So Rippers and other models with the same stats/equipment should be pretty easy to take care of.



@ Redbeard: You are totally correct on this idea, but a Nob unit is a pretty rare case of a highly customizable multi-wound unit. I personally rate Nob units as one of the poorer in the codex so I don't really mind that they get this wacky ability.

Stelek wrote:Man you gotta read harder.

I know PLENTY of 5th edition tricks, but I won't share them with YOU.

Noob.

(Or was it just tricks?)

yakface wrote:
You are totally correct on this idea, but a Nob unit is a pretty rare case of a highly customizable multi-wound unit. I personally rate Nob units as one of the poorer in the codex so I don't really mind that they get this wacky ability.

Yeah, off the top of my head, I can only think of them, and Tyranid Warriors as example of this behaviour. Nobs aren't great, but the big biker nob unit makes a pretty interesting one-trick pony unit. (The real problem with nobs, of course, is that they're not boyz...)

Folks have pointed out that the Vyper Guided Missile isn't going to be very high-strength (like 8 max, moving a full 24"), but when desperately necessary, it adds a cool way to go after rear armor on a tank contesting an objective. I like the cinematic addition, as only a desperate player would throw away 65+ points on a single S8 shot.

Ramming is just gging to get out of hand in general as players have fun with the new option. I predict 6 months of "What am I playing, Car Wars?", even in tournament settings. Once you've lost otherwise, you might as well use your vehicles themselves as weapons of last resort.

On a separate note- using a Scouting unit that charges behind the enemy (say, Orks) to force them to counter-charge, thus pulling them away from the direction that they actually want to go seems like a great idea. It's not an exploit, actually it's rather solid tactics-but it will sure piss some people off.

Redbeard wrote:

yakface wrote:
You are totally correct on this idea, but a Nob unit is a pretty rare case of a highly customizable multi-wound unit. I personally rate Nob units as one of the poorer in the codex so I don't really mind that they get this wacky ability.

Yeah, off the top of my head, I can only think of them, and Tyranid Warriors as example of this behaviour. Nobs aren't great, but the big biker nob unit makes a pretty interesting one-trick pony unit. (The real problem with nobs, of course, is that they're not boyz...)

Actually, now that I think about it, Tau Battlesuits fall under this rule too. Their small unit size, ability to take unique multi-wound models plus their drones to 'dump' nasty wounds onto means that small Battlesuit squads should be very tricksy to deal with.

I know the rule is a little weird and wonky but the alternative (the current rules) were really quite unclear and caused many people to play the rules different ways, as evidenced by the polls I put up on the subject in YMDC before.

Even though there is this new little 'loophole' I still think it is an improvement over the previous version of the rules.

Ork Nobs, guys.

Just the tip of that iceberg, too.

care to share since most of us do not have a copy of the rulebook to peruse?

Any unit you can customize individuals in and have multiple types of saves slows things down. Toss in special rules and you're in for a slow play like no other.

It's pretty clear about what parts of a model you can draw LOS too, so take parts you can't and drape them around the model. It can now neither shoot nor be shot, so it can advance at will on the foe and take them in CC. (Classic example, Umbrella Wing Tyrant).

Useless guys move out of the way. Shooty guys fire. Useless guys move back in the way.

B&C pointed out that if you drive a vehicle right up into another vehicles face it won't be able to get up momentum to ram you out of the way, so if its in a position where it can't just reverse off and drive away you can pin it.

"Actually, now that I think about it, Tau Battlesuits fall under this rule too. Their small unit size, ability to take unique multi-wound models plus their drones to 'dump' nasty wounds onto means that small Battlesuit squads should be very tricksy to deal with."

Especially the Farsight council wich will have 8 different models and all have 2 wounds with farsight having three. nasty Nasty NASTY CHEESE HEADS!!!

most Farsight Councils I've seen/run have the BG identical unless a FSD is on a model.

It is the shas'ui/shas'ui TL that is more likely to be a pain in most games.

malfred wrote:

Stelek wrote:Man you gotta read harder.

I know PLENTY of 5th edition tricks, but I won't share them with YOU.

Noob.

(Or was it just tricks?)

Illusions Malf. They're called illusions. Tricks are something a whore does for money.

...

Back OT, Stelek, how do swarms and these new rules slow the game down? Please respond to Yakface's and other comments.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

yakface wrote:
Actually, now that I think about it, Tau Battlesuits fall under this rule too. Their small unit size, ability to take unique multi-wound models plus their drones to 'dump' nasty wounds onto means that small Battlesuit squads should be very tricksy to deal with.

Frankly I only think of this as a good thing. Gun drones accompanying battlesuits should be programmed to get in the way of incoming krak missiles aimed at their controller, they might get in the way of the odd lascanon blast in the process.

I play a farsight council and have mostly switched to arming them all the same (plasma/missle)

but there are other things you can give them to make them all different. The normal loadout:

Plasma, missile, Targeting array, HW drone controller, HW Multitracker.

So...

One guy is normal
One guy gets a Target Lock
One guy gets the Stim Injector
One guy gets the failsafe detonator
One guy gets a Target Lock and Fusion/Plasma
One guy gets a CIB and plasma
One guy gets a blacksun filter

Thats just looking at it really quick - I'm sure there's easier/better ways to do it but this doesn't stray too far from the normal setup and gives you spread wounds (though the shield drones/gun drones will end up in their own piles I guess)

I have an even better trick, One template from a battle cannon,

One guy is normal--dies from dbl str
One guy gets a Target Lock--dies from dbl str
One guy gets the Stim Injector--dies from dbl str
One guy gets the failsafe detonator--dies from dbl str
One guy gets a Target Lock and Fusion/Plasma--dies from dbl str

Tarval wrote:I have an even better trick, One template from a battle cannon,

One guy is normal--A drone dies from dbl str
One guy gets a Target Lock--A drone dies from dbl str
One guy gets the Stim Injector--A drone dies from dbl str
One guy gets the failsafe detonator--A drone dies from dbl str
One guy gets a Target Lock and Fusion/Plasma--A drone dies from dbl str

Edited for clarity----^
What we're talking about deals more with massive torrents of fire and using individual equipment setups to create "unique" models that can be used to dump otherwise very killy shots onto in a pinch. I just threw the drones into your response to clarify that casualties can come from anywhere in the squad for blast weapons, even indirect.

can I just clarify something regarding allocating wounds on multiple-wound units.

What's been said applies only to the first time that unit is shot at. Any subsequent shooting, wounds are allocated to wounded models first.

e.g. I shoot the ork unit (or battlesuit unit) and wound 3 times (so 3 models each take a wound) My next unit shoots at them and causes 1 wound, this wound must be allocated to a model that already has a wound. Next unit shoots and wounds 5 times, models already wounded must take the extra wounds first, etc.

Also, any instant death wounds must be allocated to healthy models where possible, so if I shoot the unit with a lascannon, a whole model (one that hasn't taken any wounds) must die, unless they've all taken a wound.