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Hi folks,

this is not an army list for a current race but a whole new race for use in Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

I'd really appreciate any ideas/suggestions you have. You can rate posts and I really need some suggestions for points values so please leave them in the "comments & points value suggestions" link under each unit's post.

I'm just working on the characters/special characters, magic items and lore right now. The will also be one more Special unit added which my forum members are working on.

One last thing, I will be making suggestions as to which current GW figures acan be used for each unit and writing a lot more background fluff in future. Here it is:-

http://naut1.blogspot.com

Thanks for reading and I hope you like the army.

Very interesting stuff, I'll jot down my impressions as I read through it.

Concept: Very cool, go fishmen! It's a fantasy archetype that the WHFB hasn't used yet.

Army Special Rules: Hard to evaluate until I read the rest, but none that look utterly insane. Maybe the Sea Storm could also make flaming attacks non-flaming while it lasts? Then again, it's already a wonky enough set of rules to recall. Sea Storm might go better as an item (sea the Tomb King sandstorm banner for an example) than as an army special rule? It looks like its most of the way there already, since you need the Banner of the Chanty for it.

Equipment:

Difficult to evaluate properly without knowing who bears it yet, but the clam shields rebounding strikes me as a bit much. Nothing else rebounds, I think you've got the whole "really tough shields" idea across with the save that can't go below 6+.

Might want to make certain that the wording on the tridents indicates whether fear causing cav need to fear test to charge, and whether the target unit still suffers fear/terror as though they didn't cause it themselves.

Scalemail dealing -1 to hit is a really big deal. That's functionally the same as the zombie dragon's cloud of flies. I haven't looked at the units that have it yet, but its worth paying careful attention to this. If this is gear that one special unit gets that its fluff is all about, this might be alright. If it's effectively an army wide special rule that anyone worth fighting is at -1 to be hit, you are going to have point value issues.

Core units:

Wave Breakers look fine. They've got that scalemail, but their ws is pretty low, so most folks are hitting them on 4+'s anyway, and the unit as a whole looks like the sort of unremarkable infantry that make great core. I'd say that they should be pretty cheap, around the price of the worse flavors of Empire state troops, or Brettonian Men-At-Arms.

Netters: These guys look a bit too weak, actually. The nets aren't nearly enough to make up for losing scalemail and clam shields. Maybe they need a second hand weapon, or some Great Weapons (big hammers that they use to break open clams or some such). As they stand they probably ought to approach goblins in terms of point costs, super cheap.

Deep Divers:

I'm not sure that you want these guys to be Immune to Psych, as fleeing is a pretty important thing for skirmishing missile troops. BS4, good guns, these guys will probably get fielded a good bit. I'm not sure you want a skirmishing core unit, as this could lead to the dreaded all skirmishing lists that make folks loathe wood elves. Maybe these guys don't count as your mandatory core units?

Mariners:

You might want a special rule that says that these guys can't be joined by living characters. Further, it's relatively common for ordinary skeletons/zombies to have ws 2. At least you've got Tomb King books and Vampire Count books to get the price of these guys from, though you might want to knock off a point or two as the nauticans aren't set up to give them the magic support that undead units need.

Sand Golems

You've got to be really careful with unbreakable core units. Now, the way their stats are set up most everyone ought to scythe through them, but it's worth paying careful attention to anyway. Making them take wounds in the undead style, or you can only have one unit per sand golem enabling HQ or some such would be more traditional.

In general the core section strikes me as kind of weak, overall, but that's usually a good thing in a player made codex, as the power tends to come from characters/specials. Still, it's worth noting that these core units can't fight evenly with any other races core units. Low ws and bad saves are the primary issues, but if the points are low and its a horde army this may be fine.

Special Units:

Mantas: I think these guys need a higher leadership. If someone shoots them you are going to have a whole special unit run for the hills at 3d6, and with td3 and no saves they are going to be falling in droves. I also think they need to hit harder, as ws 3, s3 poison weapons don't impress. Maybe a +2 strength on the charge, as they strike with lance-like impact? Or perhaps the price is just really low, and there really are ludicrous numbers of them. I'd point out, though, that there aren't any other horde-flyers in the game.

Giant Crabs: I think you can get away with having immense crabs hit a little harder. The Tomb Scorpions in the Tomb King books are a good inspiration. I think Killing Blow is appropriate instead of the strength-fu, maybe make em s4. The 2+ save and the grieving widow rule are pretty cool. t5 2+ save monsters with 3 wounds each are great, but at a stubborn 6 they are going to be running away from static res if you don't make em a little killy.

Ocean Guard: These guys seem like a great elite infantry unit. ws 5 and s5 (on defense vs. horses) and fighting in 2 ranks are all big deals, and stubborn is great even at an 8. You might want to make kraken shields a bit better. Without hand weapons the elite infantry are rocking a 5+ save here, and even with the enemy hitting on 5's due to the scale mail this isn't the rock hard unit that dexes have for their good phalanx. If they just get shot they'll fall like chumps without at least a 4+ save to protect them. Give them some sort of ocean cloak that protects vs. missile weapons but doesn't help vs. melee combat. They ought to cost equivalent to other races good infantry. Neat unit. You might want to restrict them to the # of warrior characters in the army, keep them feeling rare, as these guys will be preferred to the core units all across the board otherwise.

Lobstrosities: I say, with a unit as slow as this one, go all the way and make em immune to killing blow and always reduce the enemy's ws by 1, no need for the parry rule. These guys move 3. Now, unbreakable is a bit of an overused cachet, but I can see it for such abominations. You might want to give the unit a maximum size to avoid fanatic spike syndrome. I also think they might get an armor save for their half-shell thingy, and maybe put them on ogre sized bases with 3 wounds. Of course, all of this improvement is pushing them up to the ogre/kroxy price range, but move 3 is incredibly painful, I think it'll work out.

Man o'war: While cool, I think this thing needs Always Strikes First to allow its paralyze rule a chance to save it from just getting axed by the first fighty thing to charge it. Also, since units can't attack during overflight anyway the out of reach rule is unnecessary (see the Tzeentchy guys in the new Daemons of Chaos codex). This thing shouldn't be too expensive, it's basic gimmick is to fly over the enemy battle line and march block/sting them. I see it as a gyrocoper equivalent, probably needs a really short range ranged attack to represent reaching out and stinging with the long tentacles.

Ghost Ship: I think the way to go with this is to represent it as a chariot (though there's a scale issue...). Give it some fierce, wraith-like crew and some special rules (it probably should cause terror). It should probably also be Immune to Psychology, as currently it can flee, which is ridiculous. I think the current rules are a bit too scattershot, its a monster with impact hits? Just go with it as a chariot.

Kraken: I really like the notion of releasing a monster onto the field and relying on its LOS initially being towards the enemy to keep it from killing your stuff. It's basically a dragon here. I'd actually make it even more savage, maybe more attacks or some such, maybe it hates everything or regenerates. Currently it's still a little too handleable for such a beasty. It's pretty close to the War Hydra or Varghulf (better stats but less special rules), but I think you want more of a Bloodthirster style impact. The enemy should dread this guy.

Octopus: I'm not fond of this guy, 8 wounds is too much, and additionally he's controllable with no issues, while the rest of the monstrosities portion of the army are either stupid/slow or feral. I think you've already got a big monster in the kraken, maybe you could fill this slot with another unit type? A mobile sea shrine or some such?

I'm very interested in what you will do for your characters. Presumably you'll have a fighty lord and hero, and a magicy lord/hero, are you going to try anything beyond that? Have you got any cool ideas for aquatic themed items?

Wow, what an absolutely fantastic post. Thanks for helping to analyse my army. I will be taking into account all of these suggestions, they are more measured and reasoned that some of the others I have had on other forums.

Scalemail - I will be limiting it's use in the army. Maybe just the elite Nautican unit.


Netters - Agreed, they do seem very weak. I'm thinking of large clam breaking machetes +1 strength


Deep Divers - I need to have a good think about this. I wanted to make the army and some of the units unique in their feel. Hence I have slightly diverged from the GW formula and made them Immune to Fear only (not psychology). I'm not sure whether I should go down this route really. I need to give it some more thought.

I like the idea of excluding this unit from counting towards the core total.


Mariner Souls cannot be joined by living characters - good point, I agree.

My thinking was to have them slightly better than Vampire Count zombies. I might remove this... "The mariners lose an additional wound for every pt by which they lose a combat resolution. " because, like you say, they cannot be re-raised with Necromantic magic. This should make them a useful blocking unit.


Sand Golems - a few people have commented on these so I'm pulling together some other ideas. I still like them so don't think I will take them out. I like your idea of limiting their use in someway.

I'm generally happy with a weaker core. I would like the army's strengths focused in it's special/rare and characters.

Manta Rays - these were supposed to be similar to fell bats. I need to check the bat stats and see how they compare.

Giant Crabs - agreed. I need to stengthen them or raise their leadership a bit.

Ocean Guard - agree with your comments. I like this "ocean cloak that protects vs. missile weapons but doesn't help vs. melee combat." and I need to restrict their use in some way. POssibly through characters or maybe the old fashioned (no more than 1 unit per 1000pts) and a unit strength maximum.

Lobstersapiens - I like you comments, I;ll dig out my lizardmen book and check the stats for Kroxigors. You're right about the movement being an extremely limiting factor, that was the plan to take into account their unbreakable quality. Good comments, thanks.

Man 'o War - I will remove the "out of reach" rule. I think I'll take your suggestion and extend it's attack range and I need to think about the always strikes first rule because I'm not sure it fits in with the actual creature which I imagine gliding along and not really making many sudden movements.

Ghost Ship - agree with the chariot idea and immmunity to psychology. I might give it a special ability too.

Kraken - possibly hate and frenzy would suit it's caharacter. I'm happy to leave it without regen.

Octopus (this is actually called Kraken now because someone pointed out that Kraken mean Giant Octopus. Note: the Kraken has now become the Leviathan). I actually quite like this unit, I take your point about it being too controllable though so I will take to take account of this in some way.


I haven't done any work yet on the characters but I have worked on the magical items. I have loads of ideas but am not happy with the feel of the magical item section at the moment. It's too similar to other armies, like a hybrid of others. I want to make it more unique.

I hadn't considered an aquatic themed item but I like the idea. Were you thinking along the lines of Cauldron of Blood, the Tomb Kings shrine (can't recall the name) or the RuneLord's Anvil of Doom ?

I'm trying to choose units that can be represented by models currently available where possible so unless I can come up with substitutes for the Octopus and Man 'o War I might have to drop them.

I'm keen to get some people actually using the army and playtesting it. Bascially, I'd like it to become allowable in club games, I guess that's my ultimate goal. I'm sure my friend will let me battle him with the army and between us we have all the armies bar chaos, tomb kings and ogres so we should be able to give it some good playtesting.

Anyway, I'm getting way ahead of myself now, there's lots more work to do. For the meantime, I cannot thank you enough for your input.

All the best,
Sigmar

PS. I have credited you and some other contributors at the foot of the army list blog. Thanks.

Hi 40kenthusiast,

You asked about an ocean themed item. I have been thinking of something immovable like the old Cauldron of Blood.

I quite like the idea of a huge Sea Anchor. It will have magical like qualities and affect enemy movement in some way.

I think the emphasis with Nauticans will be to limit the enemy's tactical options with regards to movement and flanking.

I'm thinking of storms, waves, high winds and Man 'o War paralysis etc.

I think this would make them quite unique and good against armies which rely on outmaneuvering their opponent.

Anchors are cool, and centerpiece items like the Anvil/Ark/Cauldron/etc are time honored. Are you going to have it be an option for a Lord, or a Hero, and will it take up a Rare slot?

You may want to rethink having the essential theory of your dex be that it messes with the way other dexes work. In general, if someone else buys, paints and assembles a miniature with a concept in mind, you want them to see that concept on the field, just as a matter of sportsmanship. You might totally obliterate them, but they feel as though they got what they tried out.

A good example from 40k is the Tau vs. a static shooty army. All the suits jump shoot jump, and the infantry are hiding in the tanks, which are immune to 90% of the enemy's weapons due to a high armor value. The static shooting player's participation in the game is limited to rolling armor saves and shooting heavy weapons at skimmers he can only glance. The only dice he'll throw for the vast majority of his army are saves. He's unlikely to be happy with the game experience, even if he wins.

Similarly, folks who buy fast stuff in Fantasy want to see it do its thing. If they bring flying things they want them to fly. They might fly over and have their trash kicked, but the other player probably doesn't want to hear that until they blow up an Anchor their new Dark Riders/Harpies move at half speed or some such. It's like how the Tomb King's Arc is supposed to be anti-magic, but rather than taking dice from the other player it lets them roll, and takes one off. Even Thorek, who does basically what you are talking about here, only hits 1d3 units a round, and he (and by extension armies which use him) is widely loathed for it.

All that said, it's still a pretty cool idea. How about enemy's that have LOS to it can't fly, have their Move value reduced by 1 (unless they are dwarves), or 2 if they are fast enough to get 3d6 chase/overrun moves,? Simultaneously, friendly units within X inches around it get stubborn, and each round it casts a spell which, if not dispelled, makes one unit unbreakable? That should stall out an enemy blitz list pretty fiercely, and simultaneously not be so debilitating that it completely kills an infantry list.


On an entirely seperate note, you don't have any war machines at all in the army. Probably need a stone thrower/bolt thrower doohickey, maybe a great harpoon blaster or some such. The Nauticans hate Chaos, so they probably ought to have things designed to shoot down Greater Daemons.

The point you make about the enemy player's gaming experience is an absolutely insightful one as far as I'm concerned and something I had overlooked. I was taking the perspective of the Nautican army alone and... gulp, the sneaky mean spirited gamer might have been coming out in me.

Seriously though, I will be keeping this in mind in the design.

I will focus the power of the Anchor primarily on the Nautican forces. Maybe making them more immovable with, as you suggest stubborness or maybe all friendly units within range can roll 3 dice for leadership tests taking the lowest 2 (although that might be too Lizardmanish). Another alternative might be to allow them to reroll break tests and reroll rally tests (within a certain range).

I will still be adding some movement restricting spells but nothing too overbearing and they will allow some sort of str or toughness test. I'm thinking winds and waves really. It's to make up for a lack of cavalry and missile troops (I will limit the number of Deep Diver units as you suggested, I think I may have to make them a special unit - what do you think about that ? Failing that maybe a restriction on unit numbers of 1 per 1000pts ?)

There is one artillery piece as an addition to the Ghost Wreck (for extra points):-

http://naut1.blogspot.com/2008/08/ghost-wreck.html

I thinkI will limit the artillery to that. This army will be low on all arty and shooters as I'd expect from a race from the sea. I think that will be their biggest weakness like Vamps.

I'm afraid after reading the comments to date I have a long way to go but I'll get there. Thanks for all your help, it's been really helpful. I will update the Army list with some of your suggestions in the next day so take another look and let me know what you think when you have time.

I have thought up one special Lord character, he has dreadful fighting stats (and only 1 arm)... I hope you like this... his name is Lord Admiral Nolsen . He has a few special characteristics; Legendary Commander (greater range for leadership tests of 18"), Beloved (another character in base to base contact can sacrifice his life to save Nolsen and bring him back to 1 wound (if he is killed), All seeing telescope (reveals all magic items in any one LOS unit / character, once per turn), Legendary Luck 4+ ward save (but only 5+ against gunpowder weapons*)

* Nelson got one in the eye from a musket Also, gunpowder weapons suffer due to storms anyway so I thought I'd get away with this. I used to beloved rule to counter the hochlands and Wood Elf targetting arrows/bow.

Anyway, I'll have it all on the blog in the next 24 hours.

Thanks again,
Sigmar

I have had a further idea to give the nauticans a small movement edge over enemies (rather than restriction on the enemy movement)...

How about, the Nautican units (only the Nautican people not the monsters etc) get to execute a dive into combat (simulating their ability to dive into waves). This could give a +1 inch to charges just for the naturalised Nauticans.

I will add it to the special army rules and see what kind of feedback I get.

Thanks for reading,
Sigmar

Okay, just some quick ideas. I’ll try to check out the rest of the army this weekend. Hope I don’t mirror what someone else has already said.

Overall Army Rules:

Sea Storm
--Sea Storm should have some “miscast” problem in it as well, such as, if you fail an LD check for your Chante your opponent selects one of your units to get the lightning strike
--Also, I think the movement restriction is a lot, especially coupled with the fact that the storm can last up to three turns. Does this movement restriction also penalize units that are reforming, or changing facing too? What about units that can tunnel or ambush?

Penalizing an entire army’s ability to move is a huge advantage, especially when all you’ve cost yourself is the “bottom of the inning”… who would care about giving up the ability to go first, if they knew the farthest an enemy could advance would be 4 – 10 inches. You set up about 20 – 30 inches apart don’t forget. I’d suggest the movement restriction for just fliers… and instead maybe limit visibility of units to just 2x their initiative values.

Equipment:
--Armor Piercing right now is limited to gunpowder weapons. It’s one of their big advantages that they get, for losing the ability to move-and-fire. As such, I’m not to keen on you giving the Nautican weaponry (Trident, Speargun, Clam Machete) that ability… it just seems out of character… especially with the fact that most of your weaponry already increases the strength of the user by 1. Even Choppa’s, while they are one-handed and increase the strength of the user by 1, only last the first turn of each combat.

--Trident: I’d limit it to +1 strength without AP, and fights in two ranks. It’s “fear” ability is freaking huge. Most of the dmg an enemy causes is from cavalry units, and chariots. Now, basically your entire army causes fear to these units. That sort of special ability is the trademark of undead… who are hobbled with movement and reaction penalties. Pike, which are the only weapon to gain advantages when they soak a charge, don’t cause fear in cav/monsters, and only get the +1 strength against charging cav/monsters… your Trident is +1 strength continuously, regardless of enemy type.

--Clam/Kraken shields, do these count as normal shields for the “hand weapon / shield” melee armor save bonus? In addition, I would have both shield types still not function against attacks that allow for no armor save. An unmodifyable 5+ / 6+ is actually kinda nice… but should still be shattered to vile magical effects or other big-strength attacks.


Common Troops:
--Wavebreakers: To me, these guys are slightly undercosted as core troops. Current GW game design is to make core troops a bit overpriced, and special/rare a bit underpriced… I guess the idea being that the number of special/rare units you can have are restricted or so. Anyway, with the base state line of the Wavebreakers, the armor they already wear, and their “Seaborn” ability, I’d start them at 8 points instead of 7. Not much of an increase, but a slight one. I’d also price the standard bearer/champion at +12, and the musician at +6.

--Netters: I would have these guys skirmish… they are irregular troops, and they just feel skirmishy to me.

--Mariner Souls: Okay, are they “Mariner Souls” or are they “Undead Shipmates”? For consistency sake, I’d call them one or the other… sorry, nit-picky thing of mine.

Anyway, again, core troops tend to be a bit overcost, especially those with the “undead” ability. I’d increase these guys to 9 points base. But… why would you ever take these guys other than for flavor-text reasons? The rest of your army is skink-esq mobile, and you have no way to regenerate them (another normal-undead advantage). Undead cannot march move, and technically who is controlling these guys anyway? Without a necromancer or built-in undead-ships-captain, they should be dissolving from turn 1. As such, I’d either beef up the Bosun, and make him a mandatory upgrade for the Mariner Souls, or design an undead-ships captain. Or, mention that as long as they are within 12” of the army general they don’t dissolve and can march move… but if they are outside 12”, they do and cannot.

--Sandgangers: To me, their “Doppleganger” rule is going to be more confusion than it’s worth. Being the fact they are a “core” unit, having them be unbreakable, and immune to psychology is freaking huge. What I would do, for simplicity, is completely drop the Doppelganger idea, and instead give them a kinda ho-hum statline… maybe something like 4 2 0 3 2 1 2 1 7… (the low Toughness is the fact that it is kinda easy to mush sand). Anyway, now the choice becomes do you want an army that is unbreakable but really poor at hand to hand, or do you want troops that are good at hand to hand but suffer the normal psychology rule effects.

Anyway, hope that helps some for now. More in a bit. If you're curious about checking out my revamped Dogs of War army idea, let me know.

Thanks very much for your comments LtCraggs.

I don't have time to review them right now (because I'm off to bed shortly) but rest assured, I promise to get back to you and I will take all your ideas into account.

My goal is to make a balanced army list that someone sonewhere will actually use so I'm taking all ideas and suggestions into account.

Thanks again, I'll get back soon,
Sigmar

Overall Army Rules:

Sea Storm
--Sea Storm should have some “miscast” problem in it as well, such as, if you fail an LD check for your Chante your opponent selects one of your units to get the lightning strike

Agreed I will use above to a variation on it.

--Also, I think the movement restriction is a lot, especially coupled with the fact that the storm can last up to three turns. Does this movement restriction also penalize units that are reforming, or changing facing too? What about units that can tunnel or ambush?

Penalizing an entire army’s ability to move is a huge advantage, especially when all you’ve cost yourself is the “bottom of the inning”… who would care about giving up the ability to go first, if they knew the farthest an enemy could advance would be 4 – 10 inches. You set up about 20 – 30 inches apart don’t forget. I’d suggest the movement restriction for just fliers… and instead maybe limit visibility of units to just 2x their initiative values.

The most an enemy will lose in movement is 2 inches per turn (it might have been more when you last visited the site) when moving and march moving. I agree it might still seem like a lot. I might just take 1inch off march moves. What do you think ?


Equipment:
--Armor Piercing right now is limited to gunpowder weapons. It’s one of their big advantages that they get, for losing the ability to move-and-fire. As such, I’m not to keen on you giving the Nautican weaponry (Trident, Speargun, Clam Machete) that ability… it just seems out of character… especially with the fact that most of your weaponry already increases the strength of the user by 1. Even Choppa’s, while they are one-handed and increase the strength of the user by 1, only last the first turn of each combat.

I think you have a good point here. I'm going to think it over a bit. I need to check to see what sort of impact it will have if I remove AP and think about adjustments.

--Trident: I’d limit it to +1 strength without AP, and fights in two ranks. It’s “fear” ability is freaking huge. Most of the dmg an enemy causes is from cavalry units, and chariots. Now, basically your entire army causes fear to these units. That sort of special ability is the trademark of undead… who are hobbled with movement and reaction penalties. Pike, which are the only weapon to gain advantages when they soak a charge, don’t cause fear in cav/monsters, and only get the +1 strength against charging cav/monsters… your Trident is +1 strength continuously, regardless of enemy type.

I'm keen to keep the Cause fear ability of the tridents because I think a cavalry army will be the Nauticans greatest threat. I might limit the use of Trident Guard or increase their points value. How does that sound ?

--Clam/Kraken shields, do these count as normal shields for the “hand weapon / shield” melee armor save bonus? In addition, I would have both shield types still not function against attacks that allow for no armor save. An unmodifyable 5+ / 6+ is actually kinda nice… but should still be shattered to vile magical effects or other big-strength attacks.

Both shields provide +2 armour save. I think you're right about the Kraken shields, I will remove their protection against "no armour save" attacks.

Common Troops:
--Wavebreakers: To me, these guys are slightly undercosted as core troops. Current GW game design is to make core troops a bit overpriced, and special/rare a bit underpriced… I guess the idea being that the number of special/rare units you can have are restricted or so. Anyway, with the base state line of the Wavebreakers, the armor they already wear, and their “Seaborn” ability, I’d start them at 8 points instead of 7. Not much of an increase, but a slight one. I’d also price the standard bearer/champion at +12, and the musician at +6.

I will take a look into this, I'm still undecided.

--Netters: I would have these guys skirmish… they are irregular troops, and they just feel skirmishy to me.

I will take a look into this, I'm still undecided.

--Mariner Souls: Okay, are they “Mariner Souls” or are they “Undead Shipmates”? For consistency sake, I’d call them one or the other… sorry, nit-picky thing of mine.

Mariner Souls not Undead Shipmates (sorry, my mistake)

Anyway, again, core troops tend to be a bit overcost, especially those with the “undead” ability. I’d increase these guys to 9 points base. But… why would you ever take these guys other than for flavor-text reasons? The rest of your army is skink-esq mobile, and you have no way to regenerate them (another normal-undead advantage). Undead cannot march move, and technically who is controlling these guys anyway? Without a necromancer or built-in undead-ships-captain, they should be dissolving from turn 1. As such, I’d either beef up the Bosun, and make him a mandatory upgrade for the Mariner Souls, or design an undead-ships captain. Or, mention that as long as they are within 12” of the army general they don’t dissolve and can march move… but if they are outside 12”, they do and cannot.

Agreed about the 12" rule, I have added the "All for One" rule. Because they cannot be re-raised or added to so I am keeping the points cost the same for now.


--Sandgangers: To me, their “Doppleganger” rule is going to be more confusion than it’s worth. Being the fact they are a “core” unit, having them be unbreakable, and immune to psychology is freaking huge. What I would do, for simplicity, is completely drop the Doppelganger idea, and instead give them a kinda ho-hum statline… maybe something like 4 2 0 3 2 1 2 1 7… (the low Toughness is the fact that it is kinda easy to mush sand). Anyway, now the choice becomes do you want an army that is unbreakable but really poor at hand to hand, or do you want troops that are good at hand to hand but suffer the normal psychology rule effects.

I need some time to think about this. I'm very keen on the sandgangers because I think I've come up with a truly unique unit that opens up some interesting tactical options and I think the players will enjoy trying them on the battlefield. I'll have to get back to you. I'll read soem other feedback and see what other people have to say.

Thanks very much for all your suggestions and advice,
Sigmar

First, you’re anti-movement thing is… huge. Not only do you get the ability to still cause movement to slow down because of rain, you have three Rare units that can cause enemy units not to be able to move. If you want to keep the storm, I’d drop the ability of your monster types to cause movement impairing effects.

Also, might want to mention the “Unit Strength” of each of your rares.

The loss of 1" of movement to sea storms I could see... then it kinda matches stuff like "the Rain Lord."

With all the ways your army has at limiting enemy movement, cavalry really isn't any more of a threat than anything else is. I'm still favoring dropping the "fear" effect it has. That still makes the trident a mix of a Halbard and a Spear, without the penalties of either. OH! Thinking of that, can you use a sheild with the Trident?

Okay more unit thoughts...

***Rare Units***

Man o’ War: I’d make the Overflight strength 3… you have the advantage of “impact” hits without the pentality; i.e., you get to auto hit them without them getting the chance to fight you in melee.

Paralyzing attack has two effects (one about no attack backs, and the other about no movement)… what you might want to do is mention both effects in the “Paralyzing Attack” section, instead of separating the two effects out like you have it. Also, I’d include the ability that the opponent gets to make an LD test (on the models unmodified LD) or an Initiative test as a save against the Paralyzing effect. And what about charging? They cannot march move, but a charge is not a march move.

I’d give them a set number of attacks… maybe 3 or 4, instead of 2d6. 2d6 reliably gives you seven attacks (at strength 5)… pretty impressive for a beast with really no penalties… High Toughness negates the “Large Target” effect… Low WS is negated by the fact the monsters attacks can flat out prevent the opponent from attacking back at all… no Stupidity or anything makes it pretty capable for getting into melee. I’d also say up-price the cost of the monster to about 200 or maybe 210… he just seems undercost at 185

Ghost Wreck:
Might want to mention that attacks that auto-destroy chariots still auto destroy the Ghost Ship. Also, does the Ghost Wreck count as Undead? It is impled it does with the fact that it is a “Ghost” wreck, and crewed by “Mariner Souls” who are undead. You might want to include Undead in it’s profile as well (for all the Undead pros / cons). By that same token, I’d also drop the Ghost Wreck to “Fear” instead of “Terror”. And mention that the Mariner Soul crew use “hand weapons” in their gear. OH! That also reminds me, do the crew get an armor save of some sort since they are in a big ship?

Whaler’s Harpoon can fire into melee? If it can, I’d suggest that it only be allowed to fire into the melee it’s in… a Whaler isn’t going to shoot a far away whale, if one is smashing onto the ship. I’d also include the strength of the harpoon shot.

Drop Anchor says you cannot drop it if you charge, but then you mention that you can still “overrun on its charge move”… so, which one is it?

You already mention that it is a “Chariot”… you might be able to get away with not having the “Ocean Glider” rule… fewer special rules are always a plus.

Kracken:
Okay, I have a lot of problems with this. The long and short of it is it’s freaking huge, with about zero penalties. As it is, I’d say the cost should be more upwards of 400 to 425 points. (By contrast an Imperial Dragon is 500 points, if memory serves, and you have to buy Karl Franz to bring it along.) Anyway, here are some more thoughts.

I’d drop “Hate” and “Frenzy”. It’s already pretty strong with 6 base attacks, and a high WS, thus “Frenzy” is a cheap way to give it additional attacks as well as making it Immune to Psychology. (Especially since it is “Stubborn” too.) And, while I can understand “Hate”, I would have to say the Kraken is more feral… it doesn’t “Hate” stuff… it’s just eternally hungry.

I’d also drop the “Breath Sulphur”… the Ink on the Octopus and the shock attacks of the jellyfish make sense… but the breath weapon attack more seems like you’re designing a monster that does everything. I know the attack is weak being strength 3, but with zero armor save and they cannot move also.

The armor save is also a bit much… it’s already Toughness 6 with 6 wounds… basically making you immune to all standard forms of attack, and highly resistant to even strength 5, 6, and 7 attacks as well. In other words, pretty much unable to be wounded by 80% of enemy forces. I would drop the armor save completely. It already has a huge Toughness and a huge WS / Initiative. It’s a big fish… not a hard-shelled turtle.

I would adjust “Instinctive Killer” to be a lot more random. I just find it hard to follow that it can control itself so much on turn one, if it’s supposed to be such a voracious killer… and how does it control itself afterwards too? If you want to keep the point cost low, and all the other benefits, Instinctive Killer needs to be a huge penalty. I’d have it be at the beginning of every turn you roll a d6 … on a 4+, its training and restraining magics keep it in line. On a 1 – 3, your opponent gets to control it. This occurs each turn the monster is not in melee eating stuff.

Anyway, just some more quick thoughts.

Great feedback Lt Craggs. I need a little time to digest all this before I get back to you. I definitely see the point about possibly overdoing the movement penalties. With regards to the Kraken, it went down quite well in other quarters and had frenzy and hate added following a suggestion. I'll have another think about that.

I did have one quick request re your questions/points, can you clarify this please ? :-

"Drop Anchor says you cannot drop it if you charge, but then you mention that you can still “overrun on its charge move”… so, which one is it?"

I meant that the anchor can only be dropped in subsequent combat rounds, not the first one when the Ghost Wreck charges. I thought this would make sense because it will allow an overrun on the charge move.


I'll get back to you on your points in the next couple of days. Thanks again and please keep the feedback coming.

All the best,
Sigmar

LtCraggs wrote:First, you’re anti-movement thing is… huge. Not only do you get the ability to still cause movement to slow down because of rain, you have three Rare units that can cause enemy units not to be able to move. If you want to keep the storm, I’d drop the ability of your monster types to cause movement impairing effects.

The movment restriction is integral to the character of the army which I chose on purpose to give them a unique feel. However, I'm going to take into account what your saying. First of all in defence of the ability I would like to say...

The effects of the Sea Storm...

50% chance lasts for 2 turns, 25% chance lasts for 3 turns, 12.5% chance lasts for 3 turns and this only reduces movement by 1", shihc would be equivalent of a cavalry unti taking barding - this is the Nauticans greatest advantage and brings enemies more in line with the Nautican movement rates - nothe they only have 1 flying unit and no fast movers like cavalry at all.

With regards to the units:-
Octopus - can only use ink once per turn
Deep Divers - hook & reel only affects units containing models of str 3 or less

I don't think this is excessive but what I will do is decrease the effectiveness of the Giant Jellyfish paralysing attack from 4 to 3. I know this is only a minor concession but for now, until play testing, I'd like to keep the same feel for the army.

Also, might want to mention the “Unit Strength” of each of your rares - good point, I will do. Thanks.

The loss of 1" of movement to sea storms I could see... then it kinda matches stuff like "the Rain Lord."

With all the ways your army has at limiting enemy movement, cavalry really isn't any more of a threat than anything else is. I'm still favoring dropping the "fear" effect it has. That still makes the trident a mix of a Halbard and a Spear, without the penalties of either. OH! Thinking of that, can you use a sheild with the Trident?

Yes, the Trident guard have Kraken shields (5+ unmodifiable armour save). Rather than removing the fear effect I am going to make limit the use of the trident to only 1 unit to represent it's rarity.

A normal sea trident will profer +1 str, use in 2 ranks (except when charging)
A diamond tipped oceanic trident will profer +1 str, use in 2 ranks (except when charging), armour piercing and fear for cavalry (I'm dropping the fear for monstrous mounts.

Okay more unit thoughts...

***Rare Units***

Man o’ War: I’d make the Overflight strength 3…agreed you have the advantage of “impact” hits without the pentality; i.e., you get to auto hit them without them getting the chance to fight you in melee.

Paralyzing attack has two effects (one about no attack backs, and the other about no movement)… what you might want to do is mention both effects in the “Paralyzing Attack” section, instead of separating the two effects out like you have it. Also, I’d include the ability that the opponent gets to make an LD test (on the models unmodified LD) or an Initiative test as a save against the Paralyzing effect. And what about charging? They cannot march move, but a charge is not a march move.

I would like to keep the effects of paralyzing attack and overflight separate for clarity, I think keeping them modular helps people with the rules because then it's easier to locate and just read the relevant rule for the situation at hand. I agree with your point though about them essentially being related to the same ability. Disagree about allowing initiative test or toughness test because this is a rare unit and I would like it to benefit from a rare ability which isn't esily countered, however, see below re: reducing powerfulness of jellyfish (in terms of number of attacks)

I’d give them a set number of attacks… maybe 3 or 4, instead of 2d6. 2d6 reliably gives you seven attacks (at strength 5)… pretty impressive for a beast with really no penalties… High Toughness negates the “Large Target” effect… Low WS is negated by the fact the monsters attacks can flat out prevent the opponent from attacking back at all… no Stupidity or anything makes it pretty capable for getting into melee. I’d also say up-price the cost of the monster to about 200 or maybe 210… he just seems undercost at 185

Totally agree. I will reduce attacks to d6+1 to introduce the element of randomness I wanted with this creature (that will average 4.5 attacks) and I will up pts to 205 - to make people wonder why 205 and not 200 (something I wonder about with Vampire Lords)

Ghost Wreck:
Might want to mention that attacks that auto-destroy chariots still auto destroy the Ghost Ship. Also, does the Ghost Wreck count as Undead? It is impled it does with the fact that it is a “Ghost” wreck, and crewed by “Mariner Souls” who are undead. You might want to include Undead in it’s profile as well (for all the Undead pros / cons). By that same token, I’d also drop the Ghost Wreck to “Fear” instead of “Terror”. And mention that the Mariner Soul crew use “hand weapons” in their gear. OH! That also reminds me, do the crew get an armor save of some sort since they are in a big ship?

Some great points here, so thanks very much. Re the Ghost wreck as chariot this should imply all chariot rules are in effect (I will make this clear in the description). I will give it the undead rule and downgrade to fear. Also, will mention hand weapons. Armour save of 5 would seem appropriate and regenerate (like the corpse cart). I am going to up the pts to 115 to reflect regenerate.

Whaler’s Harpoon can fire into melee? If it can, I’d suggest that it only be allowed to fire into the melee it’s in… agreed a Whaler isn’t going to shoot a far away whale, if one is smashing onto the ship. I’d also include the strength of the harpoon shot. Will do.

Drop Anchor says you cannot drop it if you charge, but then you mention that you can still “overrun on its charge move”… so, which one is it?

You already mention that it is a “Chariot”… you might be able to get away with not having the “Ocean Glider” rule… fewer special rules are always a plus. I'd like to to be able to negotiate small obsatcles without penalty giving the impression it rides on top of an ehtereal wave

Kracken:
Okay, I have a lot of problems with this. Yes, I inderstand why, it is quite powerful. The long and short of it is it’s freaking huge, with about zero penalties. As it is, I’d say the cost should be more upwards of 400 to 425 points. (By contrast an Imperial Dragon is 500 points, if memory serves, and you have to buy Karl Franz to bring it along.) Anyway, here are some more thoughts.

I’d drop “Hate” and “Frenzy”. It’s already pretty strong with 6 base attacks, and a high WS, thus “Frenzy” is a cheap way to give it additional attacks as well as making it Immune to Psychology. (Especially since it is “Stubborn” too.) And, while I can understand “Hate”, I would have to say the Kraken is more feral… it doesn’t “Hate” stuff… it’s just eternally hungry.

I am removing Hate. Frenzy stays because it can be used by the enemy and can be a weakness, ie. the nemy forcing it to charge into combat.

I’d also drop the “Breath Sulphur”…I'd like to keep this to retain the enemy movement effects but I'm going to take your opinion into account and remove it because you're making sense and I'm being sentimental the Ink on the Octopus and the shock attacks of the jellyfish make sense… but the breath weapon attack more seems like you’re designing a monster that does everything. I know the attack is weak being strength 3, but with zero armor save and they cannot move also.

The armor save is also a bit much… it’s already Toughness 6 with 6 wounds… basically making you immune to all standard forms of attack, and highly resistant to even strength 5, 6, and 7 attacks as well. In other words, pretty much unable to be wounded by 80% of enemy forces. I would drop the armor save completely. It already has a huge Toughness and a huge WS / Initiative. It’s a big fish… not a hard-shelled turtle.

I'm not so sure, it will lose most of the armour save against most attacks which stand a fair chance of hurting it, ie str 6 attacks. For now, I will reduce to 5+ armour save (so Kraken shields still make sense). That would mean 12 handgunners at short range have 5/6 chance of causing a wound. To take account of it's toughness I will reduce it's wounds by 1.

I would adjust “Instinctive Killer” to be a lot more random. I just find it hard to follow that it can control itself so much on turn one, if it’s supposed to be such a voracious killer… and how does it control itself afterwards too? If you want to keep the point cost low, and all the other benefits, Instinctive Killer needs to be a huge penalty. I’d have it be at the beginning of every turn you roll a d6 … on a 4+, its training and restraining magics keep it in line. On a 1 – 3, your opponent gets to control it. This occurs each turn the monster is not in melee eating stuff.

I think allowing the opponent to control the Kraken would be a big "hit" on the Nautican army. The adjustments made so far are:-
Hate removed
Suplhur attack dropped
Armour save reduced to 5
Wounds reduce from 6 to 5.

Rather than change the instinctive killer rule, I will increase from 355 to 370 pts. I think that in addition to the above this makes the Kraken slightly more expensive "pound for pound" than the High Elf dragons of similar power.

Anyway, just some more quick thoughts.

I would just like to offer you my thanks once again LtCraggs this has been a great help and I'm still keen for more input from you. I plan to start putting up the magical items very soon (in the next 2 or 3 days) so please check back. Also, I'm by no means done with existing units, I have to play test them for starters !, so anymore ideas are welcome.

All the best,
Sigmar

re: Man o' War - given the reduction in attacks and overflight strength I don't think there's a need anymore to increase points cost to 205. I'm thinking of adjusting slightly downwards.

At first glance I'd suggest the following:

Making the Spear Gun: 16 inches, Strength 3, Armor Piercing, Poison

Adding Lore of Life to the list of Lores that can be used by Nautican Wizards

And I'd consider replacing one of your spells (Perhaps Dead Seas of Time since you already have a lot of armor piercing and scale mail) with a spell that creates Mariner Souls such as: Casting Power 5+ (Remains in Play) - Target an Enemy Unit within 24 inches. Whenever that unit takes a wound add an additional Mariner Soul to the Mariner Soul unit you control. If you do not currently control a Mariner Soul unit when the target unit is wounded create one, with a number of Mariner Souls equal to the number of wounds you dealt, within 12 inches of the Nautican General.

That was probably worded poorly...

Give Tide Watchers that don't take machetes the option to buy Spear Guns

Phew, a long one and it's late but here are my initial thoughts. First of all, thanks for reading and commenting Stelek.

Stelek wrote:Hmmm here we go...

"Hate all Chaos* (Beasts of Chaos, Chaos Daemons and Chaos Warriors)"

This makes them feel like Lizardmen. Have you played much D&D? Seafolk generally hate landfolk, and are generally evil. It's an archetype, but it works well. I'd make them hate elves, humans, and dwarves. They are the primary seafaring nations, after all. Everyone else is kind of a land power.

It's a unique army and a counter to chaos which fits with it's background. I might limit the hate to Daemons only.
"Treat all water features as open ground (cannot end turn within a feature)"

Again, Lizardmen.

Instead, why don't you go the 'this is our land' route the wood elves did?

Let the nauticans place a water feature on the table, give them something they can do with it. Attacks out of it, from it, whatever.
I like this idea, I'm going to give it some thought. I don't want the Nauticans to be "unattackable" though

"Enemy movement reduced by 1 inch"

This breaks the game. It's entirely too powerful.
I'm not so sure, I take your point though, if the Nautican player was lucky and the Sotrm lasted then it would be too powerful. I will make an adjustment, possibly just reducing march moves and charge moves by an inch.

Instead, I suggest you make the first turn be under cover of darkness (seems to me like it would make sense).
I like this idea

"All enemy BS -1 "

You're kidding, right?

Oh and the free magic missile every turn? Yeah, no one else gets it and you shouldn't either. It's not my army, it's just a suggested army list.

The effectiveness of Sea Storms is not as great as you might think. Firstly an important hero slot must be taken for the Chanty, which is a weak hero. Also, there is 50% chance the storm will not even last after turn 1. The free magic missile is very low power. The general rule was to offset the general army weakness of slow movement.

------------------

Under spells, #2 is listed as #3. thanks, I will corrent that.

"The Dead Seas of Time"

This should really just be minus to BS or WS. Minus to armor saves is broken.
Please explain why you think this

"4 - Symbol of the Southern Ocean"

Kind of a weak ass spell for #4 and 8+.

Hell #2 is way better than this.
I'll go back to the magic lists and do some comparisons, you might be right

"Summon Water Elemental"

Great fluff. Just make it a magic missile.

Creating creatures is an undead thing.
Personally, I like this as it adds to the theme.

"Tidal Wave"

So seriously, cast 13+ but I can obliterate your knights, your gunners, and the war machine behind them.
Again, I will go back to magic section and compare. I know it's good but it's not as good as you suggest. I think a tweak might be required though. Thanks.

Come on now.

All of these spells and abilities are way overpowered.

Are you Gav? lol

"Admiral Lord Nolsen"

Mr. I am Immune to all attacks from every character in the game unless I roll a 6, and then fail my 4+ ward save.

Riiight.

Parry was removed from GW's games years ago because it was broken.

WOW LD10 on everyone in 18". Holy hell.

Oh man and a instant free regenerate off a gimp.

Ok the Empire had a goof like this and he was also removed from the game because he was broken.

Please justify your reasoning. Thanks.

"Weapons"

Why uhh are your weapons all S4 and armor piercing?
They are not. I have reduced their power somewhat although you may have read before I did that. Also, the clam machete is getting a change tomorrow.

That too is broken good.

"Kraken shields"

Yeah so wow. Ummm, you don't GET unmodifiable armor saves. There's a reason for that, it's a double ward save and hence broken.
Many other units have a ward save, in fact all of Chaos Daemons. Again you need to follow up your comment with a reasoned argument please.

"Units"

Taking into account the above special rules...

You have M5, S4, I4 LD10 guys for 7 points. With unmodifiable 5+ armor saves and -1 WS to the enemy so they hit you on 4s.
Whihc unit are you referring to ?

I can't keep going. The bull is just overwhelming me at this point.

Holy crap, I left out the armor piercing the other guys get. lol

You made some useful points earlier on. I'll take some of your comments into account and I expect there will be many drafts so maybe check back in a few weeks if you can bear to

I have completed the 1st full draft of the Nautican army.

Please feel free to rate the units and post any comments or suggestions. If you play test it please let me know how the army performed and if anything looks "broken"

All the details are here:-

New Warhammer Battle Army - the Nauticans

Once the army has the "thumbs up" from the Warhammer community I will change it into a free pdf download on my blogsite.

I've gotta respect the effort. Really well presented. I'll post my feelings on the balance of it all later, but my gut is that there are a lot of special cases. I don't know how they each stack up yet, but there do seem to be a great many unique rules.

I'll check it out.

Thanks s40kenthusiast.

I'm sure that there are a lot of bits and piece in the rules that need moderating. I'm not worried or reluctant to make changes to the list, I just want to get it generally accepted by the community.

I'll be working on the graphical content and some fluff while I wait for responses. I will probably implement some cut-offs for each new draft to allow people to test changes if they want to.

I know of 2 people who are play testing so far, I also have an artist helping me with the graphics and a writer putting together short Nautican stories for fluff (I'lll be writing some of these too).

Thanks for commenting and your help,
Sigmar

More Nautican Thoughts:

Okay, been taking a look at the updated / revised list, and I have some additional thoughts. Hopefully I won’t jump around too much.

One thing that has jumped out at me is that you seem very… afraid of enemy missile fire. Your entire army is basically able to ignore any sort of missile fire via anchors, spells, Sea Storms, or inborn natural abilities. That’s… imbalancing. The weapons the Nautican’s can get are awesome melee weapons, and they really don’t have to worry about getting into melee as they can shut down enemy shooting… and enemy movement. At best, it is overwhelmingly powerful. At worst, it’s flat out broken.

Army Special Rules:
“Hate Chaos Deamons”… if the army is going to Hate something it needs to be a bit more universal. What about Chaos Dwarves? Beastmen? Does the Skaven Rat-God count as a “Chaos Deamon”? If you want to include “Hate”, I’d just have it as “Hate Chaos.” It pre-prevents a lot of arguments.

I’d remove the water-rout special rules… it’s too much to keep track of for fleeing movement, which can be weird enough as is. I’d say if the Nauticans flee into a water feature they are considered to have dispersed back to the ocean to plan their next raid or something… i.e., they are caught and destroyed.

For your scenery swap, you just say that they can replace ¼ of the terrain features… but you don’t restrict what they can replace it with. They could, technically, replace it with buildings, or forests, or swamps, or rocks, or farm-fields or whatever… it is implied that the features are supposed to be swapping into water features, but you do not actually limit it to that.

Sea Storm
For your “Sea Storm”, when do you actually decide if the storm is coming? Before the first piece of terrain is placed? Before or after units are deployed? Before the roll-off to see who gets to go first? Might want to be very specific on when the Nautican player has to announce he is giving up his right to a first turn to summon the storm.

Also, as was suggested before, your storm is really powerful. Not only do you slow your entire enemies army down, you penalize his ability to shoot, and you get a free magic missle before the game even starts. Three, HUGE, effects. Yes, the Magic Missile is weak at strength 3, but since it doesn’t allow for an armor save you always target the most expensive, heaviest armored, 1-wound guy. BAM, spell pays for itself right there. Not only that, when do the shots take effect? During your magic phase? Your opponents? And, the rule isn’t clear on if the lightning keeps coming after turn 1… so you have the ability to cause up to 3 turns of magic missiles that your opponent has zero ability to counter… 3 turns where you slow down your entire enemies armies… 3 turns where you nullify missile fire against you. Now yes, fast cav / scouts can deploy and funnel enemy troops; however, at most, you are channeling one unit at a time, or preventing one unit from March Moving at a time with the fast cav… not to mention that fast cav is notoriously easy to sweep aside. Your Sea Storm slows down the entire army. That’s way too much of an ability at the cost of saying your opponent can go first.

Your Sea Storm should do one thing… either 1) limit movement for one turn, 2) reduce BS by -1 for one turn, or 3) cause d6 strength 3 magic missile hits allowing for armor saves as normal. As it is, there is never a reason not to summon the Sea Storm.

Nautican Special Equipment:
Oceanic Trident is a huge weapon… 2-ranks, +1 strength, armor piercing (effectively making it strength 5), can be used with a shield, and causes fear in cavalry models… why would a cav model be afraid of a big stick? Pike don’t cause fear. If you want to keep the Oceanic Trident, I’d suggest, at most, 2-ranks, +1 strength, requires two hands to use… that’s still a hugely solid weapon… a Halberd that acts like a spear. As it is, there is no reason not to take it, as it is still an awesome weapon against infantry, chariots, monsters, everything.

Nautican Speargun: Poisons are exclusive to Lizardmen and Dark Elves… I’d drop that ability.

Clam Machete, I’d make the math easy, and just make it act like a choppa… +1 strength for the first turn of each melee combat.

Your Kraken shields act as a Ward Save… what you might want to do instead is have the shield give a base armor save of 5+… and maybe magic resistance 1. That right their gives you a shield that’s twice as good as normal, and doesn’t break the basic rules when it comes to high strength attacks.

Clam Shields should be similar. Make it just a 5+ armor save so it’s twice as good as a shield, but still not game imbalacing.

As it stands now, there is no reason not to take the huge shields… not only are they already twice as armored as a regular shield (even before melee), they can be used with your machetes and tridents.

Nautican Spells
“Dead Seas of Time” Probably doesn’t need the “natural claws / armor” exception… it’s too much to keep track of. Just have it give the penalty to an enemy unit.

“Water Elemental” Summoning troops is a hallmark of the Undead and Chaos, you might get a lot of backlash at the fact that the Nautican wizards can summon bodyguards… and pretty tough bodyguards at that. 4 wounds is pretty solid, especially coupled with “Unbreakable”. If you want to keep the water elemental, I’d have it have 2 – 3 wounds, and drop the Unbreakable effect. Also, do undead suffer from the “Drown” effect? They don’t breathe… they’re already dead.

“Tidal Wave” is a unit crusher… no range restrictions, no LOS, no armor save, a decent number of hits… this spell is pretty huge. 13 really isn’t that hard to get, as you can do that on 3 dice fairly reliably… meaning a level 2 wizard can cast this. Couple this spell with some of the magic items you have and it’s phenomenally good. If you want a Tidal-Wave like effect… maybe model it more like the Comet of Cassandora… or maybe make it more like the Amber Javalin. As it is right now, it’s very strong.

Nautican Characters / Lord Level
“Oceanic Trident” is way too cheap at 8 points. It should be more like 15 – 20, as it’s a magic weapon.

“King of the Seas”… says he’s 20’ in the background text, but you might want to include the fact that he needs like a 50 x 50 mm base. Instead of the 3+ never reduced below 5+… just make the Kraken armor he wears a 3+ armor save with a 5+ ward save.

“Guardian of Time”… his anchor chains seem very unwieldy in terms of special rules. Also, if the Guardian is busy choking out someone, shouldn’t be be auto-hit by just about everything else? It probably takes a lot of effort on his part to keep the chains choking someone. Anyway, point being, that the chains seem… tricky to try to playtest and balance.

The “Anchor of Time” also is pretty strong. You basically get to place a piece of terrain after that part of the meta-game is complete… and your opponent cannot even attempt to counter it. (Other terrain effecting abilities are spells that can be countered.) The 6” anti-missile radius is huge too. The way the rule is written, you do not need your entire unit w/in 6” of the Anchor… just barely touching the 6” radius. The effect also seems… reversed. Why would a cannon shot, which is thrown out with a lot more force be sucked into the anchor, but a sling-shot stone not be? And can the Guardian leave the Anchor? The rules imply he can. I’d also remove the whole extra dispel die the Anchor gives… it’s anti-missile effect is already huge. Especially when coupled with the Sea Storm effect… now you’re talking about -3 to the enemy BS… if they can even shoot. (And this isn’t even tieing in such effects like your Mermaid’s Alluring Beauty thing).

“Vulcanus” Remove the “Uncontrolable Eruption”. His “moving Timebomb” effect is broken. With the amount of movement penalties you cause your opponent, and movement magic the Nautican’s have, he is a moving timebomb with zero penalty to you. The effect is broken… fluffy yes, but broken.

“Sulfur Vents”… again, while fluffy, is also broken. The fact he gets basically additional attacks for nothing is huge. Yes, they’re at str 2, and he only gets them when he suffers a wound… He has 3 wounds, so he’ll get at least 3 times to use the Sulfur Vents. He’s 40x40 base, so he’ll be touching at least 4 enemy models each time. The attacks allow for zero armor save, which makes them a lot stronger than the “str 2” would imply. Not only that, you get to couple the last turn of Sulfur Vents with his Timebomb ability, giving you a crapload of free hits on enemy models. Vulcanus is a no-brainer in taking. You just charge him straight ahead into anything, and let him detonate. 12” radius is a 24” diameter.

“Lord Nelson”… his Admirality Sword is huge. He can flat out cancel enemy attacks. When you couple that with his 4+ ward save, “Look Out Sir” basic rule, “Beloved Commander” special rule, it makes him darn near unkillable. Especially when you consider the fact that there is no mention on if Lord Nelson can “parry” missile shots… I’ve watched enough Ninja movies to know that ninjas can catch arrows and deflect bullets… why not Lord Nelson. A more balanced ability to give his Admirality Sword is to make melee attacks against him a -1.

“Legendary Commander” 18” command radius is already pretty huge… I’d leave it at that, and drop the second effect that makes Lord Nelson a second battle standard for your army.

“Mermaid”… Mention what Lores of Magic the mermaid can use… or is it just the Nautican magic spells? Also, being immune to miscasts is an effect of the Khemerians (whose magic is very regimented and therefore easy to counter) I’d completely drop the “Ocean Grace” ability.

Leadership Penalty effects tend to be a hallmark of Undead and Slannesh. -3 to LD makes even dwarves reliably fail LD tests. If you want to keep the “Peerless Beauty” effect, I’d make it just a standard LD test… those are usually tough enough.

“Sole Legend” makes no sense. The Mermaid has an LD of “10”, but is “nervous and reclusive”? In order to keep the number of special rules down, just drop the “Sole Legend” ability completely, and lower the Mermaid’s LD to 8 or 9… High LD mages are the property of Chaos and Elves.

Alright, I've had the time to look over Draft 1.0, here are my comments/suggestions. Try not to get discouraged in the endless chorus of corrections/complaints. You've done the hard work, now you are just cherry picking suggestions and looking for useful stuff.

Army Special Rules:

Hatred: You ought to make Hatred target army book names. "Chaos Daemons" is vague. The Fantasy Army Book is "Daemons of Chaos".

Ignore Water: Ok, you shouldn't have it that they can both not stop in water features when they movet through them and that they can flee into them or through them. I'd suggest that, just as they can move through water but not stop within it they can flee through water, but if they stop in it they return to the sea. Having units within terrain impassible to the enemy is not good.

All Flame Attacks s-1: Does this apply only to flaming attacks, or also to spells from the Lore of Fire? I'd suggest both, but either way you need to be precise in your wording. Another consideration is breath weapon attacks. I'd suggest it doesn't work on them, as most of them aren't flaming, and the ones that are are dragon fire, which is traditionally pretty fierce stuff.

Replace terrain: I'd suggest that this be done slightly differently. You want more water, but if you allow folk's to replace terrain pre-deployment it can be used to deny the enemy their chosen terrain. That is, you can deny elves their forests, gunlines their hills, etc. I don't think that's your intent. Perhaps instead you should just specify that the Nautican player can take water features for his terrain pieces and leave it at that?

Sea Storm:

I'd echo LtCraggs comment that the lightning strike needs a statement defining what phase it occurs in. One must be precise.

I disagree with him that it's overpowered. The movement change is night-meaningless, units that got there in two rounds will still do so, etc. The flyer hit is tough on armies that have them, but they are kind of few on the ground, and the -1 to BS and hurting guns won't do near as much as praying for the Lady's blessing. Seems like the only kind of armies that will really take a hit from this are gunlines, and they take a much worse hit from the Bret prayer. I've proxied up a pair of nautican games (vs. Daemons and Beasts, respectively), and the storm didn't really contribute much.


Equipment:

I'd suggest that the wording on clam and kraken shields become identical. Currently, it looks like attacks which ignore armor saves entirely bypass clam shields, but it's not so clear about kraken shields, with a case being make-able either way. Also, I don't think the word 'irrespective' is a good word.

Magic spells:

Sea Surge:

This is a really severe spell to be the level 1 spell. No LOS needed, moves 2d6, can affect a unit multiple times...serious business. I'd suggest that this be a higher level spell, so that you can't depend on having it. (Kraken marches forward, everyone casts Sea Surge on it = first turn dragon charge!)

Haunting Lilt:

A fine spell, perhaps a trifle weak with all the restrictions on the caster. Perhaps just leave it at "remains in play"? That already goes away if they cast another, and the other player can chuck power/disple dice at it and take it out if it vexes them.

Symbol of the southern ocean:

Hmm...more move-ment fu. This could get a bit ugly with a big rank-breaker character and Sea Surge. Maybe make it clear that this only affects US 1 heroes/lords? This needs to be tightly controlled, as the combination of skitterleap/vanhels can get really ugly. Now, that's not all bad if movement is your army's thing, but it needs to be carefully thought through.

Dead Seas of time:

This is a pretty weak curse. Needing an 8+ to cast, and basically just slightly degrading a unit's melee power...Meh. I'd take out the exceptions and just leave it as the curse, no need to get into arguments about whether a bloodletter is carrying a sword or has a sword shaped hand. It's still not great, but they can't all be superstars.

Elemental:

The elemental is on an ogre-sized base, right? It ought to be. Anyway, this is another thing that combos really well with Sea Surge, though the requirement that it remains right by the mage kind of nullifies that.

Tidal Wave:

Finally a magic missile, and it's quite a powerful one. Then again, a 13 to cast isn't terribly easy to pull off (compared with Bolt of Chaos I don't see this as too much). I'm alright with this one's power, but the rules for it seem kind of arbitrarily complicated. How about it hits d3 units, within 24" and LOS, but nothing about an 8" line or messing up obstacles?

Magic Items:

The crystal spear seems overcosted. Improving your leadership radius to 18", giving a reroll to one break test and exploding upon the death of your army's general isn't nearly worth 65 points. It's barely worth 25.

Life Saver seems about right, basically improves the performance of a speedbump, but since you still need to pass the rout test it's not overpowered. Worth noting that a guy dropped by an albatross next to a unit and then sea-surged into the flank of and resurrecting himself post-death would hold it for 2 phases pretty dependably.

Swordfish broadsword is undercosted, it's equivalent to most other army's big deal weapons, which are all > 50 to keep you from getting big deal armor along with it.

Snake-of-nine-tales feels like the attacks ought to also be ws 3. Cost might be slightly too high. On average 9 s3 attacks will cause one poison, 3 or 4 hits and 1-2 more wounds, which is right up there alongside a great weapon.

Need to clarify stinger whip vs. challenge, also when/if the victim gets their attack back, and specify that it can't take their last attack.

Replicator cutlass strikes me as a typical gimmick weapon, overcosted but that's how such things are. How often do such protracted battles occur with >character stat monsters.

Fin Flail: A fine, uncomplicated weapon. Bargain at 20 but not outlandishly so.

Kraken armor: Seems a bit expensive for plate mail and MR 2. Dark Elves get that for ~half the point cost.

Bejeweled gauntlet: Seems like about the right cost for this ability, cheaper than Obsidian armor, but then the goblet doesn't give

Great Clam Shield: Might want to increase the cost on this, typically the cost for a 5+ ward save is right around here, but the rebound ability can affect KB attacks, and is pretty severe.

Great Shroud: Standard terror causer, no problems

Volcanic helmet: Looks fine, but I think that wounds from the explosion shouldn't be included in the combat res.

Starfish shield looks fine, there are races that just get a 2+ armor save for similar point values (Vampire)

Reef Shield looks fine

Surface Rod of divination looks alright, isn't this just the standard Rod of whatever and Dispel scroll stuck together?

Crystal Chime is probably a bit overcosted. Bound items of power 4 that only affect enemy's who cast are pretty weak, but you need to be clear on the duration of this effect. If it's a remains in play spell the cost needs to come down, if its a one round duration spell it is probably about right. As it is right now, you ring it once and forget about it.

Gift of Whale Song just seems awful. The risk of losing the spell, the fact that you are lowering your overall # of spells....both bad, but then it costs more than a decent magic weapon or a dispel scroll? Further, your spells all have pretty good range. Decent idea, bad execution.

I don't like the Muses Harp, on the basis that it's a bound spell that kills units without rolls. Granted most folks will dispel it, but if you can imagine it working once you can see how torqued off the enemy would get. How about instead it's a siren song, which lures enemy units toward the weilder? If the spell goes off the enemy must charge or march towards you at maximum rate? Still a book of Arkan power thingy, but no longer such an irritant.

Shaol seems to be tied into the whale song idea...I'm just not sold on the whole choir thing. If you are set on it though, this is probably about the right points value.

Kraken Eye: Seems fine, worth having for the possibility of stealing an enemy magic missile and the MR, but not so often/fierce that the enemy's magic will be entirely negated.

Orb of Illusions: Normally I'd nix an item like this as overpowered, but you seem to have taken trouble to minimize such issues. With it's small size, inability to march block, it actually seems underpowered. I'd have to play with it and try and find issues though.

Ring of Oceanic Rapture: I dig it, could make one heck of a linebreaker/speedbump hero.

Rainbow Pearl is probably undercosted. Similar prices give the ability to use this power once, while this one goes off over and over (presumably every enemy move phase?) and affects multiple units.

Talons of: Seems fine, though the idea of a Bloodthirster bawking the charge because he's worried about eagles strikes me as hilarious.

Shell Horn: Seems good, I like it.

Talisman of the Conger: Seems a bit complicated, all characters are skirmishers when on their own, and scout only matters-pregame. Rewrite as "bearer scouts", and leave it at that?

I've got to get to some stuff, I'll have more feedback another time.

More Nautican Thoughts (continuing through characters):

Character prices, overall, seem on the low side to me. You’ll probably have to play-test your point costs to see if they’re fair.

Also… the more I go through the army, the more it seems like you have something against shooting and movement. WHFB already overprices shooting… and shooting only really becomes abusive in small-point games, where an early “lucky shoot” can cripple an enemy unit. Anyway, just something I noticed.

Nautican Lord: Under his stat profile, says “Coastal Hermit”… might want it to read “Nautican Lord”

Nautican Prince: Under his stat profile, says “Costal Hermit”… might want it to read “Nautican Prince”. Overall, the equipment still seems on the cheap side to me. I would up-price the gear by a point or two each.

Chanty Singer: Under his stat profile, says “Costal Hermit”… might want it to read “Chanty Singer”. If he is to be more of a… part wizard, I’d lower his Toughness to 4. You stat in his background text they aren’t much in the way of fighty; but then give him WS 4, T4, I5, and LD8… all of which make for a pretty solid fighty character. By dropping his Toughness to 3, he still can do combat, but now he is a lot more vulnerable (which more fits in line with the background text). While I understand the “Ethnic Nautican” comment… using “ethnic” does dance on that line of sounding racist. I’d drop that word, and just use “Nautican”, or just name the unit types that are affected.

Zharc: For his speargun, he’s already really powerful with it, having a BS of 6 (elven Lord level character, as a hero-class). And, while the gun has a Strength of 3, its poison makes it much more dangerous than normal. I’d keep it with the standard multi-shot penalty. Else, there is no reason to ever not be multi-shooting.

Zharc’s WS and BS are at Lord Level status… I’d drop both of those down to WS 5 and BS 5, still very competent.

Zharc is below cost. Being immune to psychology is a pretty powerful effect, and hero-class characters usually pay for it through the nose. I would up-price Zharc to about 145.

Zhurf: So… he rides a surfboard? And it basically doubles his wounds, his movement, and causes impact hits like a chariot? And it ignores terrain? I would, just to make fewer extra rules, drop the surfboard. Or, if you want to keep it, just have it act like a horse. Or, see how the Tzeech disks work in terms of rules, and mimic those. And, does the ward save “protect” the surfboard? There is nothing saying it does… but there is nothing also saying it doesn’t. If you want to keep the impact hits, I’d also make them strength 4, as that’s Zhurf’s strength.

Zhurf’s Ring: Another enemy-moving effect (tying into the Rain Storm, and the anti-moving spells)… If you want to make it a bound spell type effect, you have to give it a power level… I’d suggest a Power Level 3, which is fairly standard for bound items. I’d also limit its range to 12” and LOS.

Astrolabe Awareness is broken. You cannot pre-measure anything in WHFB, no matter the ability. That is the risk you always take when you declare charges; that you’ll be short because what you thought was 8” is really 9”. I would completely drop this item and effect.

Zheala: If she’s a “healer” where does she get 2 attacks from? The vast majority of wizards, or wizard types have 1 attack. Warrior Priests have 2, but they’re more clerics than wizards… and their spells are a lot weaker than Zheala’s. The Priest can really only save multi-wound models… Zheala lets the unit ignore the first wound it suffers. Also, the way the rule is written is, to me, it’s really confusing. So, she prevents poisoning, the first wound, and can still attack… the only restriction is she has to be in the front row? Characters, other than Skaven, are always in the front row anyways… so… that’s not really a restriction. Anyway, if she’s a “healer”, drop her attack value to 1, and give her a bound-spell effect. Bound Spells are already covered in the main book… or, baring that, if she joins a unit, the unit gains Regeneration on a roll of a 6+ or something… though she’d probably have to be upcosted. Anyway, bound spells and regeneration are covered in the main book, and kinda already do what it seems like you’re wanting her to do.

I’d also drop the “Nautican Benevolance”. It’s unnecessary. While I understand the background behind it… you’re adding a rule you really don’t need to add. I’d drop it.

Hermit: You might want to mention that you can only use the staff during the Nautican Player’s magic phase.

The Albatross is a pretty nice idea… but it’s a bit too impressive at T5. I’d make it T4. It’s still fairly tough, but now “normal” soldiers have a decent chance to shoot it down. I’d also shorten the range to 12”.

Call Gulls is pretty huge too. You already have a number of ways of crippling enemy BS and WS. The Gulls penalize BS, WS, and Initiative. And it has a range of 24”. A solid and borderline abusive spell… especially since it’s basically auto-cast with a Power Level 5 (meaning your opponent has to put at least 2 dispell dice, if not more, into trying to counter it.) I’d lower the range of Call Gulls to 12”, and have it effect BS and Initiative… birds tend to duck out of the way when people swat at them.

Mist: again with the missile-fire penalty… see why I mentioned it before. It seems like your entire army has multiple ways to completely shut down the shooting phase without any real movement, terrain, or anything on your part.

Siren: Wizard’s don’t usually get a bonus to Leadership, until they become Lord level. I’d lower your Siren’s LD to 7 or 8… which seems to be your standard leadership for the Nauticans

Also, for the Enchanting Dreams, I’d remove the “+1 to CR” effect. It’s already very strong at just requiring enemies to pass LD checks to even attack her. By giving her the “+1 to CR”, you’ve just added a second battle standard bearer.

LtCraggs & 40k Enthusiast,

Thanks kindly for the comments, I won't be reading them right now as I've only just discovered them (from now on I'll be getting a reply next time someone posts here).

I'll review your suggestions/points over the next few days and come back to you, probably on Sunday 9th November. Thanks again for casting your expert eyes over my creation.

Sigmar

Thanks again for the great feedback. I spent today (all of today !) reviewing the suggestions from yourselves and a few other people on other forums (I had over 20 A4 pages of suggestions/ideas).

I have started implementing some of the suggestions (the ones from this forum have been the best in my opinion). I have taken all of the suggestions into account and about 75% of them (across the board) have had a direct impact on the new army list. A handful of suggestions have not been implemented simply because they have become redundant due to other changes.

I have started posting (I've only done the Seaborn rules and Sea Storm amendments so far) and need a break now but I hope to post the whole lot tomorrow 16th Nov (by about 21:00 GMT) - providing I have the stamina !

I'm hoping that the army will now begin to look like an interesting army to play a game with and we might be able to encourage some playtesting.

Thanks again for all your help. We're getting there !

40k enthusiat / Lt Craggs,

I'm afraid I didn't get nearly as far as I had hoped to today. I'll have to try to finish draft 2.0 off over the next few days.

Apologies,
Sigmar

Dude, you're a nut. High rare-earth content, lots of good stuff in ya, but some people are probably extremely allergic to you...

Ahem. Nice stuff for a fan-list, good to see you're taking opinions well.

Makes me want to dig up the notes for a race/list I was designing with a friend about six years ago. He did the art, I did the words.
Hulking cat-like warriors with lots of Persian and north African influence. Think Elsweyr-folk with twice the mass, and bony head-ridges. Their strengths were initiative, heavy curved blades (counts-as flails), pursuit and movement. Weaknesses included little armour, average leadership (where Frenzy wasn't), lack of technology (missiles almost exclusive to skirmishers) and no directly-offensive magic.

No time to consider reincarnating it now though. Plus my artist is about 800km away.

The Nautican army list has now been updated to draft 2.0

(Almost 30 pages of feedback were taken into consideration while updating from previous drafts.
Many thanks to everyone who is helping to make this army a real possibility)

Please get stuck in and help me playtest.

just out of curiosity are you using current army books to work from at all, as when i glanced over the army list it seemed to be slightly like the wood elf army with more blocks of units, perhaps it might be an idea to look at the book for some extra ideas on how to make the list work, just a thought

still like what you've done with the list most of the units seem well balanced just some play testing and tweaking needed

There's only one major thing that kind of sticks out in my mind.

The army special rules are too numerous, and the Nauticans have nothing against them to balance these special rules back out. Being dependant on a terrain feature, as well as always being able to place these particular terrain features in any game will not resonate very well with most gamers, IMO (Especially not with the cheap tricks you could potentially pull with those rules). No matter how much sense it might make.