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Do necron models that are 'wounded' in cc prior to their ex-unit being sweeping advanced get wbb's?

Discuss.

Yes. At least that is how I play. They are down and not considered part of the unit anymore. They still need to satisfy the WBB requirements though, which can be hard if their original unit is toast.

Mezmaron wrote:Yes. At least that is how I play. They are down and not considered part of the unit anymore. They still need to satisfy the WBB requirements though, which can be hard if their original unit is toast.

So then you must play that if the unit they belonged to are caught in a sweeping advance, then they only get one wbb roll and can't be 'ported through a monolith for a second, right?

They'd get a second roll if whatever unit they were attempting to join used the Portal.

Aduro wrote:They'd get a second roll if whatever unit they were attempting to join used the Portal.

Incorrect.

If the original unit is destroyed, then they don't 'belong' to any unit until they pass their W.B.B. They can't be targeted themsevles by the portal, and neither do they get targeted along with any unit that is near them.

Hmmm can't argue that one. It actually makes sense. lol

If the unit gets swept... they are gone too. No WBB roll for them.

They are still attached to that unit, hence why they can port with them, and why they get moved with them if they are falling back. If the unit is swept and gone... they are gone.

Incorrect, again.

"Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal purposes such as coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether other units can self repair, and so on - They are debris only."

Debris is not affected by sweeping advance. The only way that downed necrons are considered to be associated with the 'parent' is for the Monolith's portal and associated effects.

Lordhat wrote:Incorrect, again.

"Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal purposes such as coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether other units can self repair, and so on - They are debris only."

Debris is not affected by sweeping advance. The only way that downed necrons are considered to be associated with the 'parent' is for the Monolith's portal and associated effects.

This about sums it up. Necrons that are down can be WBB'd to any unit within range--which means they too can get the re-roll if the unit they would join is warping through. If they came back, they would join that unit, and so get the WBB re-roll.

No. As I said earlier, downed necrons don't belong to a unit until AFTER they successfully pass their WBB. If they don't belong to the unit, they can't benefit from the portal. If the original unit is destroyed, downed Necrons may not be transported through the portal.

Lordhat wrote:No. As I said earlier, downed necrons don't belong to a unit until AFTER they successfully pass their WBB.

If this was the case, then a downed Necron could NEVER take advantage of the Monolith portal. They don't belong to a unit while they are down, but when you roll WBB for a downed Necron to join another unit, and that unit goes through the portal, you have to believe that the failed WBB Necrons are part of that unit, alive or not.

The monolith portal specifically mentions downed models in the parent unit. NOT models from another unit.
The general rules state the condition of downed models, and the specific portal rules overide those rules and give one exception.

General WBB: Nothing can interact with a downed Necron model.

Specific Portal rule: Downed models from a unit may be transported with it, and recieve an additional WBB roll.

Note that the portal ONLY overrides the general rule when interacting with the 'parent' unit, and that NOTHING allows a sweeping advance to interact with downed models in any way.


Edit: While technically you are correct, per RAW downed necrons don't belong to any unit ever, this brings up unforseen consequences: no res orb usage by a completely destroyed Necron unit for example.

Incorrect, again.

Ah... so sure of yourself... and yet, the rules don't seem to agree. But at least you are convinced you are right... again...

Lets look at what the rules actually say...

"Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal purposes such as coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether other units can self repair, and so on - They are debris only."

You put this in quotes, but did not give a page reference. I have found similar statements, but not this exact one.
But assuming it *is* a direct quote, and not something you made up... guess what it does *not* say. It does not say they are no longer part of *the unit*. And that is the key, are the downed warriors still part of the unit?
Sweeping advance says the entire unit is lost, gone...

So lets look at the rules...
Res Orb... models don't have to be within 6", just part of a unit that is.
Monolith... teleports a *unit* "Any models in that unit..." get another WBB roll.
falling back... if the *unit* falls back, the fallen necrons fall back with the unit.
FAQ question about monolith... "...do the unit's damaged necrons get to re-roll..."


The rules, and FAQ, repeatedly refer to the unit, and the damaged necrons that are part of that unit. They may be debris, and ignored for range, but they are debris that belongs to that unit.

The monolith portal specifically mentions downed models in the parent unit.

No it doesn't. It mentions teleporting a unit, and then it mentions downed necrons that are in that unit. It doesn't say 'used to be' or 'once were' or anything like that.

Incorrect, again.

Ironic...huh...

Well ok then. We'll start with the page number you asked for. Codex: Necrons Pg 13. last sentence, first paragraph of the 'We'll be Back!" rule.

coredump wrote:

Incorrect, again.

Ah... so sure of yourself... and yet, the rules don't seem to agree. But at least you are convinced you are right... again...

Lets look at what the rules actually say...

"Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal purposes such as coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether other units can self repair, and so on - They are debris only."

You put this in quotes, but did not give a page reference. I have found similar statements, but not this exact one.
But assuming it *is* a direct quote, and not something you made up... guess what it does *not* say. It does not say they are no longer part of *the unit*. And that is the key, are the downed warriors still part of the unit?
Sweeping advance says the entire unit is lost, gone...

So lets look at the rules...
Res Orb... models don't have to be within 6", just part of a unit that is. Not entirely correct. per the FAQ the individual models check AT THE TIME of the wound. Not afterwards.... if in range the model THEN becomes debris; If not, it is removed immediately. So nothing here, stating whether or not debris is part of a unit.

Monolith... teleports a *unit* "Any models in that unit..." get another WBB roll. I stated my reading of how this works in a previous post.

falling back... if the *unit* falls back, the fallen necrons fall back with the unit.The fallen Necrons do NOT 'fall back', (this can not be done by casualties) they are simply moved along with the unit, to indicate that they have satisfied all current requirements to attempt their WBB rolls.
FAQ question about monolith... "...do the unit's damaged necrons get to re-roll..."


The rules, and FAQ, repeatedly refer to the unit, and the damaged necrons that are part of that unit. They may be debris, and ignored for range, but they are debris that belongs to that unit.

The monolith portal specifically mentions downed models in the parent unit.

No it doesn't. It mentions teleporting a unit, and then it mentions downed necrons that are in that unit. It doesn't say 'used to be' or 'once were' or anything like that. We agree here, I think. The portal works on downed models, the WHEN and WHY is where we differ.

I am glad you are so confident in yourself, it is an admirable trait. Now try being confident and correct... it is a great combo. Hint: It helps to use the actual written rules, and not ones you have paraphrased.

The big point of contention is this:

"Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal purposes such as coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether other units can self repair, and so on - They are debris only."

I believe being part of a unit normal purpose of the game. If they were a part of the unit, would they not have to measure for coherency etc.? I believe being subject to sweeping advance is also a normal part of the game.

In every case you mention, the eligibility for WBB has been determined BEFORE or AFTER a sweep. Nothing else can change how many WBB's you can attempt, excpet the range of like models which isn't checked for until the Necron player's next turn. Being debris saves them from being affected by the the game.



Edit: Due to this question I now agree wholeheartedly with coredump:

Q. If a Necron unit teleports through the
Monolith’s portal, do the unit’s damaged
Necrons get to re-roll their WBB rolls even if they
are no longer within 6" of a Necron model of the
same type?
A. Yes, as long as they were able to roll in the
first place, they get another chance.

I changed my mind becasue the ONLY way the models in question could be outside the 6" range for like models is if the ENTIRE unit was destroyed and subsequently teleported, which can only be done to a unit. Therefore , all damaged models are removed along with a swept unit, and dead necrons can be targetted as a unit for the portal. I'm still convinced that they may not be teleported with a DIFFERENT unit than the one they were with when they became casualties, however.

Edited my previous post. Thanks for making me take a closer look at things, coredump. :-)

Interestingly enough, a friend and I had a discussion the other day with my friend about keeping Necron units of the same type close together. You could do the WBB in such a way as to keep units at a more or less similar size, therefore minimizing enemy KPs. This is almost like if you were able to take single wounds on multi-wound models before removing entire models. Reasonable tactic?

Entirely reasonable.

coredump wrote:If the unit gets swept... they are gone too. No WBB roll for them.

They are still attached to that unit, hence why they can port with them, and why they get moved with them if they are falling back. If the unit is swept and gone... they are gone.

Really?

Cause, you know, they don't have to join 'the unit' unless it's the closest one on the wbb roll...

They were part of their original unit, then they get 'damaged'. there is nothing that says they are no longer part of that unit. There are rules saying you don't count them for coherency, or for range, or for lots of things. But nothing changes them from being part of that unit just because they are damaged.

There are plenty of rules, such as the Lith rules, that refer to the unit, and the damaged models *in* that unit. The monolith rules clearly port a unit, including any damaged models *in* that unit. It does not give allowances for damaged models that 'used to be' in that unit.

Once the WBB roll is made, they may end up joining a different unit, but that doesn't happen until after the WBB roll....

coredump wrote:They were part of their original unit, then they get 'damaged'. there is nothing that says they are no longer part of that unit. There are rules saying you don't count them for coherency, or for range, or for lots of things. But nothing changes them from being part of that unit just because they are damaged.

There are plenty of rules, such as the Lith rules, that refer to the unit, and the damaged models *in* that unit. The monolith rules clearly port a unit, including any damaged models *in* that unit. It does not give allowances for damaged models that 'used to be' in that unit.

Once the WBB roll is made, they may end up joining a different unit, but that doesn't happen until after the WBB roll....

Except why would they join a different unit? How can any unit that they are not actually in be closer than the one that they are in?

Unless of course, they are not in the 'original unit'.

Your argument does not support your assertion. They will join a different unit if models from that unit are closer than those in 'their' unit. Is it likely, not really, but it is possible, and it is how the rules are worded.

two warrior broods

WWWWWWWWWW..wwwwwwwwwwww

Some of unit W get shot and die

WWWWXXXXXXX..wwwwwwww

the ones on the far right are closer to the w's than the W's, and thus if they succeed in their WBB rolls, they will join the w's.

ALso, if the entire unit gets wiped out.

coredump wrote:Your argument does not support your assertion. They will join a different unit if models from that unit are closer than those in 'their' unit. Is it likely, not really, but it is possible, and it is how the rules are worded.

Except you don't join based on models, you join based on the closest unit.

If they are still "in the unit" how can a different unit 'be closer' than the one they are in?

This is part of the ambiguity that is in the wbb rules.

Because you join based on the closest model. You become part of the unit that the closest model belongs to.
Not ambiguous.

Lordhat wrote: Well ok then. We'll start with the page number you asked for. Codex: Necrons Pg 13. last sentence, first paragraph of the 'We'll be Back!" rule.

coredump wrote:

Incorrect, again.

Ah... so sure of yourself... and yet, the rules don't seem to agree. But at least you are convinced you are right... again...

Lets look at what the rules actually say...

"Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal purposes such as coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether other units can self repair, and so on - They are debris only."

You put this in quotes, but did not give a page reference. I have found similar statements, but not this exact one.
But assuming it *is* a direct quote, and not something you made up... guess what it does *not* say. It does not say they are no longer part of *the unit*. And that is the key, are the downed warriors still part of the unit?
Sweeping advance says the entire unit is lost, gone...

So lets look at the rules...
Res Orb... models don't have to be within 6", just part of a unit that is. Not entirely correct. per the FAQ the individual models check AT THE TIME of the wound. Not afterwards.... if in range the model THEN becomes debris; If not, it is removed immediately. So nothing here, stating whether or not debris is part of a unit.

Monolith... teleports a *unit* "Any models in that unit..." get another WBB roll. I stated my reading of how this works in a previous post.

falling back... if the *unit* falls back, the fallen necrons fall back with the unit.The fallen Necrons do NOT 'fall back', (this can not be done by casualties) they are simply moved along with the unit, to indicate that they have satisfied all current requirements to attempt their WBB rolls.
FAQ question about monolith... "...do the unit's damaged necrons get to re-roll..."


The rules, and FAQ, repeatedly refer to the unit, and the damaged necrons that are part of that unit. They may be debris, and ignored for range, but they are debris that belongs to that unit.

The monolith portal specifically mentions downed models in the parent unit.

No it doesn't. It mentions teleporting a unit, and then it mentions downed necrons that are in that unit. It doesn't say 'used to be' or 'once were' or anything like that. We agree here, I think. The portal works on downed models, the WHEN and WHY is where we differ.

I am glad you are so confident in yourself, it is an admirable trait. Now try being confident and correct... it is a great combo. Hint: It helps to use the actual written rules, and not ones you have paraphrased.

The big point of contention is this:

"Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal purposes such as coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether other units can self repair, and so on - They are debris only."

I believe being part of a unit normal purpose of the game. If they were a part of the unit, would they not have to measure for coherency etc.? I believe being subject to sweeping advance is also a normal part of the game.

In every case you mention, the eligibility for WBB has been determined BEFORE or AFTER a sweep. Nothing else can change how many WBB's you can attempt, excpet the range of like models which isn't checked for until the Necron player's next turn. Being debris saves them from being affected by the the game.



Edit: Due to this question I now agree wholeheartedly with coredump:

Q. If a Necron unit teleports through the
Monolith’s portal, do the unit’s damaged
Necrons get to re-roll their WBB rolls even if they
are no longer within 6" of a Necron model of the
same type?
A. Yes, as long as they were able to roll in the
first place, they get another chance.

I changed my mind becasue the ONLY way the models in question could be outside the 6" range for like models is if the ENTIRE unit was destroyed and subsequently teleported, which can only be done to a unit. Therefore , all damaged models are removed along with a swept unit, and dead necrons can be targetted as a unit for the portal. I'm still convinced that they may not be teleported with a DIFFERENT unit than the one they were with when they became casualties, however.

I dont think this is correct. It makes it sound like the only way to stop wbb rolls to to annhilate the entire unit at one time using power weapons or instand death weapons outside of a res orb. Let me explain my displeasure.

Unit "A" of 10 necron warriors gets tapped for 3 casualties by bolter fire. they go down and "are" eligable for wbb rolls due to bolters not meeting any non wbb roll criteria. then in the assault phase a terminator assault squad with lightning claws assaults the remaining 8 wiping them from the table. There is not a single remaining warrior is on the table. you win right? wrong! since they were "able to roll in the first place"?!?!?!?

I am thinking this Q and A was actually referencing another matter entirely.

Unit "A" gets 3 bolter casualties. It is the lone warrior unit on the table once again. the player fails all 3 wbb rolls and decides to teleport the unit through a monolith 17" away. the teleport through and get their second WBB rolls. even though the "fallen" are no longer within 6" of another necron model the still get it because the qualified before the teleporting unit (their unit) teleported.

I believe this Q and A was clearing up whether you had to have a necron warrior model stay close to the "fallen" models. It is clarifying teleporting not changing how WBB fundamentally works.

IMHO

P.S. i would say to the original posters question.. they would only get there wbb rolls if there was another warrior model within 6' of their spot of demise during the WBB phase. otherwise they are extinct.

Unit "A" of 10 necron warriors gets tapped for 3 casualties by bolter fire. they go down and "are" eligable for wbb rolls due to bolters not meeting any non wbb roll criteria. then in the assault phase a terminator assault squad with lightning claws assaults the remaining 8 wiping them from the table. There is not a single remaining warrior is on the table. you win right? wrong! since they were "able to roll in the first place"?!?!?!?

You are confusing the timing. You determine 'eligibility' at the start of the Cron turn. So in this case, none of them are eligible, and all die.

Unit "A" gets 3 bolter casualties. It is the lone warrior unit on the table once again. the player fails all 3 wbb rolls and decides to teleport the unit through a monolith 17" away. the teleport through and get their second WBB rolls. even though the "fallen" are no longer within 6" of another necron model the still get it because the qualified before the teleporting unit (their unit) teleported.

Um... how would they be too far? The entire unit ported, including the undamaged warriors.

please re-read the entire post.. my reply qouted you and lordhats conversation because he "gave in" due to a FAQ ruling. I actually believe his interpretation of the rules to be correct and think that FAQ ruling is just noting that a squad gets to reroll its wbb even once teleported since eligability would be predetermined when the first WBB was done.. not at the time of teleportation.

otherwise at time of WBB they were within 6" they get to make WBB rolls

then teleport.. if eligable at time of wbb you get to make again even if teleport would have pulled you away from other models within 6'

I believe the FAQ was referencing that.. your examples and conclusion make it sound like the only way to stop wbb roll is to wipe off all crons completely off the table.i disagree you simply must remove their eligability.

or are you saying a squad of crons that had models eligable for WBB rolls can be teleported through the monolith ignoring the instamerger rule with the closest unit?

Unit "A" of 10 necron warriors gets tapped for 3 casualties by bolter fire. they go down and "are" eligable for wbb rolls due to bolters not meeting any non wbb roll criteria. then in the assault phase a terminator assault squad with lightning claws assaults the remaining 8 wiping them from the table. There is not a single remaining warrior is on the table. you win right? wrong! since they were "able to roll in the first place"?!?!?!?

This is incorrect. You were *not* "able to roll in the first place".
You roll for WBB at the beginning of your turn, At *that* point you determine eligibility, not when they went down. Thus at the beginning of your turn none of the warriors are within 6" of any other warriors, and are thus *not* eligible for WBB.

Unit "A" gets 3 bolter casualties. It is the lone warrior unit on the table once again. the player fails all 3 wbb rolls and decides to teleport the unit through a monolith 17" away. the teleport through and get their second WBB rolls. even though the "fallen" are no longer within 6" of another necron model the still get it because the qualified before the teleporting unit (their unit) teleported.

This doesn't make sense. Assuming "A" is still 10 strong, and 3 go down. When they get teleported all 10 go through, so the 3 damaged ones *are* stlll within 6" of the 7 'alive' ones.

Unit "A" gets 3 bolter casualties. It is the lone warrior unit on the table once again. the player fails all 3 wbb rolls and decides to teleport the unit through a monolith 17" away. the teleport through and get their second WBB rolls. even though the "fallen" are no longer within 6" of another necron model the still get it because the qualified before the teleporting unit (their unit) teleported.

I agree.

your examples and conclusion make it sound like the only way to stop wbb roll is to wipe off all crons completely off the table.i disagree you simply must remove their eligability.

I agree. If I implied otherwise it was not intended. If you kill them more than 6" away, or use rending, etc.

or are you saying a squad of crons that had models eligable for WBB rolls can be teleported through the monolith ignoring the instamerger rule with the closest unit?

Interesting situation

two warrior units, unit W takes some damage. after WBB there are still 5 damaged

WWWWW1.2.3.4.5....wwwwwwwwww

5 is closer to w than to W, so if made the original WBB it would 'switch' units. But what if it makes it when going trough the Lith?

coredump wrote:

two warrior units, unit W takes some damage. after WBB there are still 5 damaged

WWWWW1.2.3.4.5....wwwwwwwwww

5 is closer to w than to W, so if made the original WBB it would 'switch' units. But what if it makes it when going trough the Lith?

Again I believe it's a question of timing. The entire unit (including eligible causalties) are transported through the portal, THEN the second W.B.B.'s are made, again checking for the nearest unit. This is the reason I changed my mind.... the only way a necron who was eligible for WBB to end the port further than 6" from a like model, is if the entire unit was waiting for WBB
.

coredump wrote:

Unit "A" of 10 necron warriors gets tapped for 3 casualties by bolter fire. they go down and "are" eligable for wbb rolls due to bolters not meeting any non wbb roll criteria. then in the assault phase a terminator assault squad with lightning claws assaults the remaining 8 wiping them from the table. There is not a single remaining warrior is on the table. you win right? wrong! since they were "able to roll in the first place"?!?!?!?

This is incorrect. You were *not* "able to roll in the first place".
You roll for WBB at the beginning of your turn, At *that* point you determine eligibility, not when they went down. Thus at the beginning of your turn none of the warriors are within 6" of any other warriors, and are thus *not* eligible for WBB.

Unit "A" gets 3 bolter casualties. It is the lone warrior unit on the table once again. the player fails all 3 wbb rolls and decides to teleport the unit through a monolith 17" away. the teleport through and get their second WBB rolls. even though the "fallen" are no longer within 6" of another necron model the still get it because the qualified before the teleporting unit (their unit) teleported.

This doesn't make sense. Assuming "A" is still 10 strong, and 3 go down. When they get teleported all 10 go through, so the 3 damaged ones *are* stlll within 6" of the 7 'alive' ones.

Unit "A" gets 3 bolter casualties. It is the lone warrior unit on the table once again. the player fails all 3 wbb rolls and decides to teleport the unit through a monolith 17" away. the teleport through and get their second WBB rolls. even though the "fallen" are no longer within 6" of another necron model the still get it because the qualified before the teleporting unit (their unit) teleported.

I agree.

your examples and conclusion make it sound like the only way to stop wbb roll is to wipe off all crons completely off the table.i disagree you simply must remove their eligability.

I agree. If I implied otherwise it was not intended. If you kill them more than 6" away, or use rending, etc.

or are you saying a squad of crons that had models eligable for WBB rolls can be teleported through the monolith ignoring the instamerger rule with the closest unit?

Interesting situation

two warrior units, unit W takes some damage. after WBB there are still 5 damaged

WWWWW1.2.3.4.5....wwwwwwwwww

5 is closer to w than to W, so if made the original WBB it would 'switch' units. But what if it makes it when going trough the Lith?

first question.. what i meant when speaking about eligability for wbb rolls.. i was stating they didnt die from power weapon or instant death weapons thus they were eligable.. as long as they meet the criteria of being within 6" of another warrior at the time wbb rolls are made. (if another squad exists.)

now IF the second squad is within 6" the three guys get their WBB rolls at the beginning of next necron turn. if not they dont. but if it IS.. and they fail their rolls... they can then tport through the monolith....

ACCORDING TO THE FAQ since they were eligable they get the chance even if they would be teleporting 18" away from the other squad ( no warriors close to the monolith)

weird part is would they then merge with the remaining squad? sling shoting through the lith back to the unit or would they recreate their now destroyed unit... i remember reading somewhere in 4th that sweeping advance wipes the unit out completely...


God my head hurts maybe i should just stop

first question.. what i meant when speaking about eligability for wbb rolls.. i was stating they didnt die from power weapon or instant death weapons thus they were eligable.. as long as they meet the criteria of being within 6" of another warrior at the time wbb rolls are made. (if another squad exists.)

But thats just it. Your own example states that a second squad *doesn't* exist. That is what I keep saying. ("not a single remaining warrior...") If there isn't a single one remaining, those 10 don't get to WBB.

I agree with the rest of the post...