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Can someone explain how this works? Can Shrike join a Chapter Master and make a unit that infiltrates?

How do their special abilities work that confer bonuses to a squad.

Can a Master of the Forge with a Conversion Beamer join a Scout squad of Telions and then use his Eye of Vengeance or ballistic.


It kind of gets fuzzy.

Independent Characters can't join other independent characters. Having the Master of the Forge with a Conversion Beamer join a Scout Squad including Sergeant Telion sounds pretty cool though.

Nurglitch wrote:Independent Characters can't join other independent characters. Having the Master of the Forge with a Conversion Beamer join a Scout Squad including Sergeant Telion sounds pretty cool though.

Yes they can. Feel free to re-read page 48 of the rulebook.

So by joining with Shrike, any other character can infiltrate.

Nurglitch's amazing record of answering questions with no rulebook continues.

Rulebook p48
"They can join other independent characters though, to form a powerful multi-character unit!"

Unfortunately, the "Infiltrate" USR is marked with an * so it is LOST by an IC who joins a unit that does not have it. So the answer to your first question is no.

edit: Shrike does in fact confer his infiltrate to a unit. I guess this would work after all.

Abilities that affect "the unit" generally DO apply to IC's unless otherwise specified (by text or an * in the USR section), so the Telion thing seems good.

Webbe wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Independent Characters can't join other independent characters. Having the Master of the Forge with a Conversion Beamer join a Scout Squad including Sergeant Telion sounds pretty cool though.

Yes they can. Feel free to re-read page 48 of the rulebook.

So by joining with Shrike, any other character can infiltrate.

You may have multiple IC's join a squad at the same time, so his example would be a legal unit. Sgt Telion and a Master of the Forge can both be "in" the same unit. Please note that Sgt Telion is not an IC, he is a unit upgrade.

Edited to remove improper information, damn you 4th!

InquisitorFabius wrote:

Webbe wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Independent Characters can't join other independent characters. Having the Master of the Forge with a Conversion Beamer join a Scout Squad including Sergeant Telion sounds pretty cool though.

Yes they can. Feel free to re-read page 48 of the rulebook.

So by joining with Shrike, any other character can infiltrate.

Actually what Nurglitch said is right, but his example is not what he stated. He stated that 2 IC's can not join to from a unit. You may have multiple IC's join a squad at the same time, so his example would be a legal unit. Sgt Telion and a Master of the Forge can both be "in" the same unit. Please note that Sgt Telion is not an IC, he is a unit upgrade.

What part of "Feel free to re-read page 48 of the rulebook" don't you understand?

biztheclown just made a direct quote from that page.

biztheclown wrote:Nurglitch's amazing record of answering questions with no rulebook continues.

Rulebook p48
"They can join other independent characters though, to form a powerful multi-character unit!"

Unfortunately, the "Infiltrate" USR is marked with an * so it is LOST by an IC who joins a unit that does not have it. So the answer to your first question is no.

Abilities that affect "the unit" generally DO apply to IC's unless otherwise specified (by text or an * in the USR section), so the Telion thing seems good.

Actually, this is a case of a Codex trumping the BGB. If we were to play with the Infiltrate rule as written, Shrike would never get the ability of his special rule unless he is attached to a scout squad, as it is the only unit in the SM army with the Infiltrate special rule. He gives the Unit he is attached to the Rule. He could then give a different IC the rule if you stated as follows:

I attach my Chapter Master to Squad A. I now attach Shrike to Squad A, thus giving the unit Infiltrate, including the CM that is already part of said unit.

Yes it's a very beardy way of doing it, but its legal.

What about techmarines?

50 point Elite Unit?

How does that even work?

Shrike, or whomever, Techmarine, Techmarine, Techmarine, Master of the Forge

2 Troop

Woot

Hq Hq Elite elite Elite

Troop Troop

Does anyone else find this a little slowed?

In 1500 points I can select 8 troops two troops per HQ get 8 HQ and put all of my MAsters of the forge in one unit?

Hollismason wrote:What about techmarines?

50 point Elite Unit?

How does that even work?

Shrike, or whomever, Techmarine, Techmarine, Techmarine, Master of the Forge

2 Troop

Woot

Hq Hq Elite elite Elite

Troop Troop

Does anyone else find this a little slowed?

In 1500 points I can select 8 troops two troops per HQ get 8 HQ and put all of my MAsters of the forge in one unit?

Huh?

InquisitorFabius wrote:

Hollismason wrote:What about techmarines?

50 point Elite Unit?

How does that even work?

Shrike, or whomever, Techmarine, Techmarine, Techmarine, Master of the Forge

2 Troop

Woot

Hq Hq Elite elite Elite

Troop Troop

Does anyone else find this a little slowed?

In 1500 points I can select 8 troops two troops per HQ get 8 HQ and put all of my MAsters of the forge in one unit?

Huh?

Exactly.

Webbe:

I think you're mistaking what I said. I never said that multiple Independent Characters cannot join the same unit, I said that "Independent Characters can't join other independent characters", since, as I suppose I didn't make sufficiently clear, Independent Characters are single model units.

You could make that unit [Shrike+Techmarine, Techmarine, Techmarine, + Master of the Forge] but I'm not sure why this would be done, or why it would be "slowed" if it were allowed.

I edited my post above. I think that Shrike can in fact do this. Shrike + Assault Squad + 2nd Jump Pack IC seems to be a legal infiltrator unit.

Nurglitch, I read this whole quote on p47 in total.

"Independent characters are allowed to join other units. They cannot, however, join vehicle squadrons (see the Vehicles section) and units that always consist of a single model (like most vehicles and monstrous creatures). They can join other independent characters though, to form a powerful multi-character unit!"

The "though" in the last sentence makes clear that though usually IC's cannot join single model units (like MC's and vehicles) they CAN join other IC's. I can't see another way of reading this.

Perhaps, if you go to the bother of demonstrating that your reading is correct, it may occur to you that your reading is not only wrong, but also that another reading, one that did not spring full-grown into your mighty intellect, is in fact correct.

OK, wait. We all agree that a Chaplian can join a lone Chapter Master and thus make a single unit consisting of 2 IC, right?

The language says "They can join other independent characters though, to form a powerful multi-character unit!". Also, ICs are not nessessarily "units that always consist of a single model" as most IC can join units or be joined with a retinue.

I can see an Imperial Assassin not being able to join another IC because they are always alone per the codex.

yes Nuglitch they can, as per the rule on pg. 48 first paragraph. I think you are thinking of them not being able to join units consisting of one model that do not have the IC rule.

Full Quote "Independent charachters are allowed to join other units. They cannot, however, join vehicle squadrons (see the vehicles section) and units that always consist of a single model (like most vehicles and monstrous creatures). They can join other independent characters though, to form a powerful multi-character unit!"

Nurglitch wrote:Independent Characters can't join other independent characters. Having the Master of the Forge with a Conversion Beamer join a Scout Squad including Sergeant Telion sounds pretty cool though.

Yes, it sounds very cool, and that's what I have already been working on.

Also, generally, note that transports can carry groups of ICs that have no unit attached - that is a big change from fourth (if this is not news to you, then please carry on)

Nurglitch wrote:Perhaps, if you go to the bother of demonstrating that your reading is correct, it may occur to you that your reading is not only wrong, but also that another reading, one that did not spring full-grown into your mighty intellect, is in fact correct.

So perhaps you could explain exactly what "They can join other independent characters though, to form a powerful multi-character unit!" does mean, if not that ICs can join other ICs...

wyomingfox wrote:OK, wait. We all agree that a Chaplian can join a lone Chapter Master and thus make a single unit consisting of 2 IC, right?

The language says "They can join other independent characters though, to form a powerful multi-character unit!". Also, ICs are not nessessarily "units that always consist of a single model" as most IC can join units or be joined with a retinue.

I can see an Imperial Assassin not being able to join another IC because they are always alone per the codex.

No, that is what we are saying is not allowed to form a unit of composed soley of two independent characters. Two independent characts cannot join to form a single unit because they are both single models. However, if you had a unit of two or more models, any number of independent characters could join that unit.

So the chapter master and the chaplain will forever be denied each others company without a friendly squad or retinue to chaperone them.

insaniak:

What solkan said.

And yet again, from page 48 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook, first paragraph:

They can join other independent characters...

Not "... a unit with another independent character..." but an independent character by himself. That is exactly what they are saying.

I don't see the words "They can join another independent characters by itself..." on that page.

Is Nurglitch just trying to be difficult?

The only thing that I can see that could possibly prevent an IC joining an IC is the clause that you can't join one to a single-model unit, but that's as a general rule. It then goes into specifics by saying that an IC may join another IC to form a powerful unit. Does it really have to say that you can join another IC "by itself"?

Answer: no it doesn't, unless you're speaking a different language to the rest of us.

It says they can join other independent characters. They don't need to clarify because that makes sense, and is not "they can join other characters in units."

solkan wrote: Two independent characts cannot join to form a single unit because they are both single models.

The restriction on joining single-model units is over-ridden by this: "They can join other independent characters though"

However, if you had a unit of two or more models, any number of independent characters could join that unit.

That wouldn't be an IC joining another IC. It would be an IC joining a unit that includes another IC.

The rules restrict you from joining IC's to single model units.
They then make a specific exception for IC's joining other IC's.

Nurglitch wrote:I don't see the words "They can join another independent characters by itself..." on that page.

Here it is again, since you missed it the first dozen times:

They can join other independent characters...

Now show us where that when they say they can join an "independent character" that they actually mean "a unit that happens to have another independent character already joined to it", because those are two very different things.

Anyone wana form a pool on how many pages this thread will go on with Nurglitch stubbornly defending his view despite everyone else disagreeing before it gets locked by a mod?

Nurglitch wrote:I don't see the words "They can join another independent characters by itself..." on that page.

You don' see the words because they are absolutely unnecessary. Why say with a lot what they have plainly said with a few?


"Independent characters are allowed to join other units. They cannot, however, join vehicle squadrons (see the Vehicles section) and units that always consist of a single model (like most vehicles and monstrous creatures). They can join other independent characters though, to form a powerful multi-character unit!"

The ICs in question do not fall under the clarification of always consisting of a single model. Why? Because, if they did, they would be unable to join other units, such as a CM joining a tac. squad. There is absolutely no precondition given for joining other ICS, as is blatantly obvious. It is a separate sentence, governing a separate situation.

The key word in the last sentence of the rule in question is "though." This shows that this sentence is specifically contrary to the prior sentence that might make someone think that one IC couldn't join another IC. There would be absolutely no reason to include the last sentence if it were not permissable for one IC to join another.

I take back what I wrote before. I was wrong, the rules do not prevent a chaplain and chapter master from their union as one unit.

solkan wrote:I take back what I wrote before. I was wrong, the rules do not prevent a chaplain and chapter master from their union as one unit.

You make the Chaplain sound Episcopalian.