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and if these things are mentioned a lot, please forgive me! I usually focus on those Nob biker posts anyways!

Just wondering other people's opinions on some units below... I'm looking for opinions, on how well the unit functions by itself, what it synergizes with, and its over-all competitiveness... any interesting strategies maybe too.

Chaos Pred - I don't know much about this thing other than most people don't talk about it... is it worth it? LAScannon gunboat? Havoc Launcher? The thing looks cool, what about keeping the straight up autocannon and gettign lascannon sponsons and havoc launcher? With the horrible side armor it would seem it likes to sit back surrounded by stuff. From the looks of it though, its too fragile and not worth it? (I am absolutely novice with vehicles... I come from smaller games).

Dreadnought - Oh how I dreamnt of taking 2 Nurgle Dreads with a few squad of Plage Marines... 33% of the time they don't listen!!! I'm just hoping someone has some cool ideas for these guys to add a "fun twist" to competitive (semi) environment... I was thinking equip them with high powered long range.. but if you roll a 6....... OK, equip them with short range destruction.... but if they roll a 1....... would they even make good "pointmen" in your army? way up front, first to shoot\be shot?

Khorne Berzerkers - it seems Plague marines are talked about most.... Noise Marines second... these guys rarely??? Why take these guys over the other options?

Noise Marines - Any use to taking noise Marine champ with plain old PW in a squad? With their high INI I was wondering if they could be used at all to dull assault from INI 4 or lower units.

Terminators in any flavor - I dig the Nurgle Terminators... they look awseome, but I love that autocannon! Is it worth it on these guys? All Termie setups I've read about so far are generally CC'ing guys... idk even much about the termies, but I envision them foot slogging and just laying down a hail of bolter and auto cannon shots.

Vindicator - support vehicle of choice?

The predator simply costs too much for what its capable of, and it's a bit too easy to destroy. Thats said havoc launchers make the chaos anti infantry varient a bit more potent.

Dreadnauts are cool, but a bit too random to be copetitive. You're better off with a defiler doing the same thing but without the risk to your own troops.

People use khorne berserkers, they're scary.

People occasionally use Noise marines, they are excellent anti infantry and are good for sitting on objectives.

Terminators are good in the chaos book, nice and cheap as long as you don't upgrade them much.

People use vindicators fairly often depending on army composition. It's pretty damn good, especially possessed.

J2FcM wrote:

Chaos Pred - I don't know much about this thing other than most people don't talk about it... is it worth it? LAScannon gunboat? Havoc Launcher? The thing looks cool, what about keeping the straight up autocannon and gettign lascannon sponsons and havoc launcher? With the horrible side armor it would seem it likes to sit back surrounded by stuff. From the looks of it though, its too fragile and not worth it? (I am absolutely novice with vehicles... I come from smaller games).

I'm not a fan these days, it can't move and shoot effectively anymore and so unless you stick it in a ruined building on a hill, i'm just not a fan.

J2FcM wrote:
Dreadnought - Oh how I dreamnt of taking 2 Nurgle Dreads with a few squad of Plage Marines... 33% of the time they don't listen!!! I'm just hoping someone has some cool ideas for these guys to add a "fun twist" to competitive (semi) environment... I was thinking equip them with high powered long range.. but if you roll a 6....... OK, equip them with short range destruction.... but if they roll a 1....... would they even make good "pointmen" in your army? way up front, first to shoot\be shot?

Just too random, the chances of them going wrong and causing more harm than good is too potent

J2FcM wrote:
Khorne Berzerkers - it seems Plague marines are talked about most.... Noise Marines second... these guys rarely??? Why take these guys over the other options?

Always take a squad of these guys, work really well with lash as well. If you use them in a transport/run them carefully, you will charge with them, and there are very few units which can take a decent sized squad of these on the charge, add in a fist and you still have 4 attacks (better than most others) which will dent any tanks you meet. And as they score you can charge them straight onto any enemy unit on an objective.

J2FcM wrote:
Noise Marines - Any use to taking noise Marine champ with plain old PW in a squad? With their high INI I was wondering if they could be used at all to dull assault from INI 4 or lower units.

There is on reason to take noise marines IMHO - doom siren, frankly who doesn't love an Ap3 S5 template weapon? I use them in concert with my bezerkers to attack entrenched positions. They rock up and provide a lot of fire power, then the bezerkers clear up the mess.

J2FcM wrote:
Terminators in any flavor - I dig the Nurgle Terminators... they look awseome, but I love that autocannon! Is it worth it on these guys? All Termie setups I've read about so far are generally CC'ing guys... idk even much about the termies, but I envision them foot slogging and just laying down a hail of bolter and auto cannon shots.

I use these guys to fill out any role that the rest of my army is lacking. Currently I'm experimenting with 5 with MOT (4+inv what's not to like?) 4 Combi meltas, 2 Fists and a Heavy flamer. They'll take a round of shooting or a charge, dish out melta death to tanks and not do too bad against troop units. But yeah they bolster the line where the combat's thickest.

Predator- I'd rather take 3 oblits. A little more in price, but seem t last longer with more options.

Berzerkers- monsters in CC!

Dreads- I seem to roll 1's, so it's sitting in my case, maybe for eternity.

Noise marines- Like Shuma said doom sirens are effective.

Termis- Have 12, but don't use them much. I have better things to spend points on.

Vindis- Who doesn't love laying pie plates. Work well in pairs and of course possessed.

Reaper Autocannon (on anything) - does it get love?

Chaos Predator - Competes with Obliterators, Vindicator and Defiler, all of which are more cost effective for the points. The vehicle weapons nerf have made Preds no better than pill boxes.

Dreadnaught - Worst unit in the Chaos Codex. It's uncontrollable for 1/3 of the game. Additionally it's a slow vehicle and doesn't have any as efficient as the asscannon for the SM.

Khorne Berzerkers - Good unit, just over shadowed by the superiority of Plague Marines.

Noise Marines - See Khorne Berzerkers.

Terminaotrs - Terminators are arguably the best Elites choice for Chaos. They don't see play in games other than high point games because of better troops, HQ and heavy selections in the Dex. I think the Reaper is trash as it's really expensive. I think most people using them are deep striking with flamers and/or combi-plas with plans to assault the next turn.

Vindicator - Competes with Obliterators, though some people use it for the pie plate of death.

In short, people are playing lash because it's a build that wins. If it's not one of the following, it's probably not being used.

Demon Prince
Plague Marines
Obliterators

Techboss wrote:
Khorne Berzerkers - Good unit, just over shadowed by the superiority of Plague Marines.

Noise Marines - See Khorne Berzerkers.

i disagree with this.

they have vastly different roles to play.

plague marines are a tarpit. its almost impossible to shift an entrenched squad of plague marines. they are some of the best mid-field control in the game but dont have particularly good shooting or combat. they will eventually get worn down by superior numbers.

berzerkers are fanstastic shack troops. as long as you dont mind losing a few they can really make a difference. unfortunately they die as easily as a marine, and appart from landraider, there is little way to deliver them to where they need to be most, effectively.

noise marines can do 2 things, either you can use them as very aggressive assault troops (with doomsiren) or as exellent statc and mobile shooting. They will beat the snot out of marines in combat and can put out an obscene number of shots. they still die like a marine, however so they are vulnerable.

plague marines arent the be all and end all of chaos troop choices. there will be certain armies that just out class them. you need a mix to give you enough flaxibility to deal with anything, rather than putting all your eggs in one basket and hoping for the best.

I run a Pred with Lascannons all around. It's small, easy to hide, and can decimate heavy armour. All for 185 points. Plus the Lascannons have good range. Just protect it from enemy infantry, it is a bit thin-skinned. Dreads, I don't use. Too unpredictable, unless you got a droppod. I love zerks, especially mounted in a Land Raider. I haven't used Noise Marines in my Black Legion army, but they can be tooled up to be a viable threat, especially armed with Sonic Blasters. Terminators are one of my favorite units. I run two squads, a 5 man Lightning Claw equipped squad, all Aspiring Champs mounted in a Land Raider, and a 10 man shooty squad equipped with 2 Powerfists, 2 Chainfists, a few Combi-Meltas and a Reaper and Heavy Flamer. Expensive, but used to Deep Strike, they can lay down a lot of firepower where you need it most. I run a Vindy reguarly, it's a great defensive tool. Enemies aren't too eager to get in range of its armament. Don't neglect it in assaults though, it can shine there also, even though it's not as accurate. A swarm killer, for sure.

My opinion on some of these:

Berzerkers: I love these guys but you must know how to use them. Deployment will make or break a berzerker unit. take large squads than run, or put them in a transport. They CAN be very good. I have an army list that consists almost entirely of foot sloggin berzerkers running up the field. It has done pretty well in most games I have played. However I have typically been reduced to 10 or less models.

Predator: I do not use them. Obliterators are just too good to pass up.

Dreadnought: when I run Chaos Dreadnoughts, I give them 2 CC weapons and run toward the enemy. for 100 points, its not a bad plan, but I wouldn't call it super competitive. It is however very fun. And isn't that what counts?

Chaos Terminators: These guys are amazing. But again, they need to be used correctly. In my experience, I have found them to be too expensive to be used exclusively for assault. Also, as cool as the reaper auto cannon is, It is not points effective. Especially not with all the cover saves out there now. The bes way I know to use Chaos terminators is to give them combi-weapons and deep strike them off of Icons. This will win you games.

Vindicator: with Daemonic possession it can do the same stuff a loyalist vindicator can for cheaper. Its not a bad choice.

extrenm(54) wrote:My opinion on some of these:

Dreadnought: when I run Chaos Dreadnoughts, I give them 2 CC weapons and run toward the enemy. for 100 points, its not a bad plan, but I wouldn't call it super competitive. It is however very fun. And isn't that what counts?

2 free KPs to the enemy player and not troops so can't hold objectives?

I would never use chaos dreads. Ever.

I guess fun isn't what counts to everybody! although honestly, I agree... having randomly acting units that are a hinderence to my plans, and might be easily wooped on... doesn't make for fun in my opinion. I mean MAAAAAAAYBE, if the mission is like, baby sit and protect the crazy Dreadnought so its soul can be extracted... but I don't see that working too well in WH40k.

Dreads are loads of fun, and not nearly so bad as people make them out to be when given 2 CC weapons. running them this way only leaves a 1 in 6 chance of a bad crazed roll (as a roll of a 1 is more of a benifit with this loadout).

Chaos Pred - Oblits are better
Dreadnought - People talk about these all the time. Your thread might become a warzone based on peoples opinion of Chaos Dreads. Personally? They are crap, they will go nuts and ruin your game 1/3 of the time.
Khorne Berzerkers - People talk about these more than Noise Marines. They are better in 5th.
Noise Marines - No, don't do that. If you want good Noise Marines take 10 with sonic weapons.
Terminators in any flavor - They are good, reaper autocannon is good. People who DS termies aren't usually looking for CC right off. They are looking to hit them with combi-flamers/meltas. Bad idea to be honest, just buy oblits. Cheaper and better.
Vindicator - Oblits are better.

Facing a Chaos Dreadnought can be a nail biting experience. Should I ignore him while he goes berserk nuking his own troops, or should I focus fire him before he fleets across the board at me? Don't forget, it's unpredictable for the user and the opponent, and at least the user has the ability to position him.

@Rahveel: Good point on the two CC's, but keep in mind that those mandatory two twin linked bolters double firing into a nearby friendly infantry unit could still hurt badly.

Chaos Predators can be really flexible units for reasons already mentioned. If you're playing on a proper board, one that has its line of sight broken up, then being able to shoot-then-scoot is invaluable. Too many players see shooting half the turns of the game to be a problem, but it's more efficient than continually grinding forward at 6" a turn and firing one weapon. Move 12" and hit a target of opportunity next turn.

Dreadnoughts are good, if you're not stupid with them, and use your strategy to mitigate their faults, and turn them into benefits. If you armed them with Heavy Bolters and use two to double-team the enemy. When the other Dreadnought is the closest unit, they won't be able to hurt each other, and when the enemy is the closest unit, you'll either be stomping it in close combat or getting twice the shots against the enemy.

A Dreadnought armed with a Plasma Cannon and a Missile Launcher sitting beside a Land Raider, for example. The traditional 'Furioso" configuration is also great for getting some bang for your inexpensive buck, while making friendly fire a mute point.

Khorne Berzerkers murder Orks. If hordes of Orks are giving you trouble, take Berzerkers.

Noise Marines? They're cool in that you can specialize them, making it easy to construct entire armies. Don't forget that Blast Masters can fire on the move, too.

Terminators combine very well with fast-moving or infiltrated Icons, Lesser Daemons, and Obliterators if they're going to Deep Strike. If they're riding in a Land Raider, then they're good with a Chaos Lord, a Dreadnought to follow up the Land Raider (see above comments), and capture (if not hold) an objective.

Vindicators, particularly ones with Daemonic Possession have several things up on Obliterators, including speed (you can move a reliable 6" a turn and fire), the ability to ignore small arms fire, and not get hung up in close combat. If you have lots of vehicles, go with Vindicators. If you're planning a mass Deep Strike, or an infantry horde, go Obliterators. When in doubt, go for combinations...

Noise marines are a good buy in a competetive army...140 points gives you a 5 man squad with a template krak missile...Great to sit on the objective in your home court while the rest of your troops move up to take the enemy's...

If you armed them with Heavy Bolters and use two to double-team the enemy. When the other Dreadnought is the closest unit, they won't be able to hurt each other, and when the enemy is the closest unit, you'll either be stomping it in close combat or getting twice the shots against the enemy.

Unless of course you don't want both Dreads having to stand still if one of them fire Frenzies. If the un-frenzied one moves forward he'll be getting 6 shots in the butt at AV 10 which IS something to worry about.

I have three lovingly converted and painted dreadnaughts tht will not see a battlefield in this version of the codex. For an additional 50 pts. I'll take a Defiler any day.

Nurgleboy77:

Nothing wrong with both of them standing still if one Fire Frenzies, particularly since they both have 36" ranged weapons. The problem is when you go for dual Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons and catch a bolter shell somewhere sensitive since those have to close with the enemy.

If you're going to play two close combat Dreadnoughts, have them advance on the flanks of a Land Raider full of Terminators or whatnot. If they get pissy they'll hit the Land Raider, with the tank being long enough that a quick advance won't be enough to put anyone's rear in danger. Problem solved.

SOUND THE ALARM! Get H.B.M.C. in here! Someone try for an invocation of Stelek! It's a long shot but it could happen!

It's war I tell you, WAR!

Typeline:

Please remember that this is a forum whose point is to discuss topics. if you disagree with someone's opinion/argument then you either need to:

1) Politely refute their argument/disagree with their opinion.
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If neither of those options seem worthwhile, you always have the option to simply refrain from posting in that thread. Making a post that does not add to the conversation and instead only serves to help rile people up and cause attacks/counter-attacks to start to fly (aka 'trolling') is never appropriate.

Spawns are bad at first sight.
But if you play it more shooty, they can fill a role in your gun line.
E.g., you shoot a squad of Bloodletters and some survived for some reason. They threaten your front ranks next turn. Then send the Spawns in to tie them up and finish them off.

wuestenfux wrote:Spawns are bad at first sight.
But if you play it more shooty, they can fill a role in your gun line.
E.g., you shoot a squad of Bloodletters and some survived for some reason. They threaten your front ranks next turn. Then send the Spawns in to tie them up and finish them off.

That's a joke right? You can't control spawn. They move to the nearest enemy unit every turn, then have to charge when in range.

Typeline wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Spawns are bad at first sight.
But if you play it more shooty, they can fill a role in your gun line.
E.g., you shoot a squad of Bloodletters and some survived for some reason. They threaten your front ranks next turn. Then send the Spawns in to tie them up and finish them off.

That's a joke right? You can't control spawn. They move to the nearest enemy unit every turn, then have to charge when in range.

Yeah, but I already did it against a Daemon army as I knew some of those bastards would not flee

wuestenfux wrote:

Typeline wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Spawns are bad at first sight.
But if you play it more shooty, they can fill a role in your gun line.
E.g., you shoot a squad of Bloodletters and some survived for some reason. They threaten your front ranks next turn. Then send the Spawns in to tie them up and finish them off.

That's a joke right? You can't control spawn. They move to the nearest enemy unit every turn, then have to charge when in range.

Yeah, but I already did it against a Daemon army as I knew some of those bastards would not flee

I guess that would work on a daemon army, the spawn would have nothing he'd be forced to move to.

Typeline wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Typeline wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Spawns are bad at first sight.
But if you play it more shooty, they can fill a role in your gun line.
E.g., you shoot a squad of Bloodletters and some survived for some reason. They threaten your front ranks next turn. Then send the Spawns in to tie them up and finish them off.

That's a joke right? You can't control spawn. They move to the nearest enemy unit every turn, then have to charge when in range.

Yeah, but I already did it against a Daemon army as I knew some of those bastards would not flee

I guess that would work on a daemon army, the spawn would have nothing he'd be forced to move to.

Right.
Against Daemons they fill the gun line quite nicely.

skyth wrote:Noise marines are a good buy in a competetive army...140 points gives you a 5 man squad with a template krak missile...Great to sit on the objective in your home court while the rest of your troops move up to take the enemy's...

Agreed--and that krak blast is also a 2 shot Heavy Bolter when on the move.

well, thanks for the explanations and tactics on the above mentioned units... to keep it flowing...

Do people like

Raptors - I kinda feel like the specialized troops are just as good, and for cheap points could take a transport that might make them more effective... then again the raptors are cheaper.


(another side note)
In tournaments everything must be on a GW base correct? No WM 30mm bases? I like them because I can pick up my units without touching the paint job.

Raptors are ok, but I don't ever seen them run without a mark. If you run them they need meltas or flamers and an icon.

They just aren't as effective as cult troops in rhinos.

I think Raptors are solid. Give them a mark. Nurgle will make them much tougher and alot more will survive to get into CC. If you move and run these guys, they will be on the enemy in no time. I think taking them in big squads is a good idea.

If I use my raptors, I give them mark of slaanesh, 2 meltas, champ w/LC and a melta bomb. Send them tank hunting first, then after squads.