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The Chimera has been the hot topic of much debate lately, so it is high time someone started a topic addressing the poor thing!

Objective : Making the Chimera a more objective vehicle. Expanding it's role. Developing Varients.

One : The Chimera suffers from poor side armor. Yes, it has AV12 on the front, but it has AV10 on the sides, for a transport, this is unacceptable, especially for the Guard. AV12 is reasonable enough for the side armor.

Two : Points value. Really, 70pts for a transport? Then add weapons?! Some people abdicate 35pts. This is sort of ridiculous as well, in my opinion. The 45-55pt range plus reduced weapons cost seems reasonable.

Three : A whole Chimera for a Command Squad is a bit over-kill. Since Transports can now carry any unit after deployment, this has been improved a bit, however some sort of Razorback version of the Chimera. Pop on a second bigger turret with twin-linked weapons at appropriate points value makes sense. Base cost stays the same, value the additional turret accordingly to compensate for the lost troop capacity (lose, say, 4 or 5 slots for the turret?).

Four : Hellhound. Keep it as is or boost that front armor to AV13! The Hellhound was possibly the only undisputable improvement in the IG codex from the previous edition, let's not lose it!

H-Vets were an improvement as well. They weren't worth the paper they were printed on in the previous 'Dex.


I could live with the Chimera being AV12/11/10 - it just needs to be more than AV10 on the sides. And the points cost is stupid. 70 for no guns? What? 40 points without weapons, 5 for the turret and hull mount, 10 if you want an AC (it's worth +5 points because of the +12" of range over the Multi-Laser).


Sadly GW isn't doing that, as the new Chimera is, AV12/10/10, Multi-Laser, Heavy Bolter, Searchlight and Smoke for 45 points. Extra Armour is a wonderfully low 15 points to ensure you never take it. I can see the Autocannon turret being 20 points because they don't know what they're doing.

BYE

I think the solution to the side armor is one that people have proposed before: a vehicle upgrade, pay 10-20pts for the extra side armor. Its not ridiculous, though it is a little unprecedented.

I think the 45pts is fair. The game breaker is what the different weapon upgrades cost.

I think there should be a command version of the chimera, something like the chimedon, but trading off the unnecessary transport space for a bigger turret weapon. Maybe not a battle cannon, but maybe something lighter like a Conqueror cannon, or twin-linked autocannons. A twin-linked autocannon should be 1.5 times the the single autocannon. I think if we went the route of something like the conqueror it'd be in the 15-20pt range. It should also come with improved comms.

Cannon on the Chimera? That's a bit over the top?

I picked AV12-12-10 to line it up with the Hellhound (which could use a new model).

45+ weapons seems fair. AV10 sides is rather silly, but whatever.

Not to get off topic too much, but I hope this drop would carry over to Sentinels. 45pts for a multilaser sentinel that can no longer cap objectives is one of the biggest waste of points imo.
These little guys need to have a nice point drop (ideally 30pts w/ a multilaser).

Sentinels should be 15-20 points + weapons. They're not worth any more...

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:Sentinels should be 15-20 points + weapons. They're not worth any more...

BYE

I agree, if a 11-20 pt model can take it out with one lucky shot with a bolter, it has no buiseness costing twice as much before upgrades.

And the only problem with the chimera as far as I can tell is that it's overpriced, but more options are always cool.

H.B.M.C. wrote:


Sadly GW isn't doing that, as the new Chimera is, AV12/10/10, Multi-Laser, Heavy Bolter, Searchlight and Smoke for 45 points. Extra Armour is a wonderfully low 15 points to ensure you never take it. I can see the Autocannon turret being 20 points because they don't know what they're doing.

BYE

You speak like you have information HBMC. Sourcing for the statement my man?

It's from the new IA book if I remember, it's somewhere in the news and rumors.

Thanks Dexy.

If so the 45 point price nice but I would prefer multiple weapon options: twin linked heavy bolters, autocannon, mayhaops a missile launcher option or even twin linked heavy stubbers so it could move and shoot. I loved my old twin liked heavy bolters.

Perhaps a firing platform would be an elegant solution to this. Allow one or two models to fire out of the vehicle while counting as open topped, but the models do not count as having moved. You could stick whatever heavy weapon you want in there to add the firepower.

Bah, I would just be happy with a clear ruling on the bolt on lasguns, or at least some way of shooting all 6 of them at one time. Come on, they are LASGUNS! its not like I am asking to shoot 6 plasma shots at something.

Skinnattittar wrote:Cannon on the Chimera? That's a bit over the top?

I picked AV12-12-10 to line it up with the Hellhound (which could use a new model).

Seriously? I did say conqueror cannon... you know... the baby brother of the battle cannon... the small fry small templeted autocannon equivalent cannon. In the realm of tank weapons, a plasma cannnon is more devastating than a conqueror cannon. You hit what 4 enemies on average, its like having two autocannons, thats all. Only advantage is it allows more move and shoot. There is precedent for a cannon on a chimera, chimedon had a battle cannon and the full 10 transport; at least it actually makes more sense for it to lose transport space to accommodate a larger weapon. It would only be for command squads, so you'd see only a few at close coming in at 75pts.

Chimerax would also be neat with quad autocannons, that would class in at the same as the chimedon.

Frazzled wrote:You speak like you have information HBMC. Sourcing for the statement my man?

It's acually more of a well-informed and educated guess.

Forgeworld released an FAQ (yeah, they actually do that, unlike their parent body) for Imperial Armour 2 in order to update it with the new Marine Codex. Included in this was an update to the Inquisitorial Chimera. It was, as I said, 45 points for an AV12/10/10 tank with 12-transport capacity, a Multi-Laser, hull HB, Smoke, Searchlight, and two special rules that we haven't heard of yet. Now, that could mean anything, or it could mean nothing, but I like to look at the history with FW and how their rules come about:

1. Now I know I say this all the time, but it is true - Warwick is the master of Copy/Paste. So many rules (and so many mistakes) are repeated throughout all the IA books. His love affair with CopyPaste is the reason why the Deathrider Apoc Formation in IA Apocalypse has no special rules. It just costs points for... nothing. He just copied the base-line formation template and forgot to add anything. The copypaste this is important because...
2. FW gets their ques from the main GW Dev Team. When IA1 came out, we were treated to what the Imperial Guard Codex was going to look like. IA6 gave us a brief look at what the Marine Codex (specifically the Tactical Squad entry) was going to look like - all a month or so before the actual Marine Codex came out. In other words, if an IA book comes out soon before or soon after a major Codex release, chances are its rules are going to match the main release because Warwick has copypasted the GW rules into his book.

Therefore, when the IA2FAQ came out, and we had a bunch of rules updated to match the new Marine Codex, it made sense then that the Chimera rules presented there would become the Chimera rules presented in the new Guard Codex, something we know they are currently working on.

So that's my logic. Do I know that the rules in the IA2FAQ are the new Chimera rules? Not at all. Am I pretty sure of it though? Absolutley.

BYE

for a command chimera, the extra dakka for less space is all well and good, but how about a massive comm array? like a 24" radius leadership boost? This for extra points of course.

I've just never believed in having command squads that go in and kick @$$, just my prejudice though

I think that sort of command and control chimera would be cool, but it does strike me as something you'd see further in the rear of an IG formation than in the front. The imperium, is the sort of universe where those who survive are "protected" by the emperor, that honor means they can be trusted with rarer and more deadly weapons to wage war with against the emperors enemies. That is the rational that defines why the type of hierarchy of war gear exists with in the imperium. Silly, I know, but to a space marine our military would probably seem just as ill concieved.

How about keeping its AV10 sides but make it open topped with 2 heavy bolter's fired by passengers where the lasguns usaly go but can also shoot forwards.

The idea comes from the Vietnam war when troops sat on top of APCs and welded some more dakka to them.

glowgos wrote:How about keeping its AV10 sides but make it open topped with 2 heavy bolter's fired by passengers where the lasguns usaly go but can also shoot forwards.

The problem here is that the chimera is an IFV, not an APC. It's almost a tank, and needs tank-like armor, not bolter-magnet sentinel armor.

and you can already fire a weapon from the hatch above the troop compartment, then add a pintle weapon. All this and you keep the "sidelights"

glowgos, I think it would be cool to see some sort of "transported units don't count as moving if the vehicles moves less than 6" for the purpose of troops shooting," its just unlikely.

I'm just going to point out that IFV's come in varying levels of armor. The M3 Bradley for examples, is what most people think of when you say IFV but the production model was relatively under armored. It had the same amount of armor as a M113. It took an up-armor kit to improve its survivability, in 40k we'd call it "Extra Armor". Maybe just having that come standard on chimeras could be a bandage on the problem, though I know its hardly a solution. I still think a +1 armor to sides should be a vehicle upgrade.

The chimera is considerably thicker than any Bradley. I'll clear up what I meant, though.
The chimera is an IFV, but nearly a tank, so it deserves more armor. 11 on the sides sounds fine, just thick enough to repel boltgun rounds, but wont reliably stop anything bigger, as it isn't a true tank.

I'm not trying to berate you, just playing devils advocate. The bolter is suppose to be firing, .75 cal or 19mm shells. A modern IFV such as the Bradley would get beat up by a bolter, even with a bolter conceived of modern technology. With some of the more heavily armored IFV out there, few as they are, they can take a 30mm shell. So it is reasonable to say Imperium technology even at a minimal capacity could resist such a thing, but would the imperium make it standard issue? That idk.

The question is should the Chimera represent the most armored of IFV the lightest of IFV or something in between? Armor 11 makes it a heavy IFV, while armor 10 makes it light. My sentiment is it should be somewhere in between.

That all makes perfect sense, but then add this:
the Bradleys treads are roughly underneath it, whereas the chimeras are on the sides, putting that much more materiel inbetween oncoming fire, and the hull, thats why I see Av11 perfectly reasonable. An attack that glances the side (i.e. rolled 11) wont penetrate the hull (no wrecked or explode! roll) but punched a hole in the track mechanism, and may roll for an immobilized result.
that's how I see it...

Not to be a gloomy Guss, but with a layout such as the chimeras where do you think they'd store the fuel? Possibly in those nice large areas near the engines where personnel couldn't utilize the space?

Yeah, you're right (again, HURR!), but I still think there's enough plating to warrant Av11 on the sides.

I would think AV11 sides is perfectly reasonable considering the Hellhound somehow is able to bump it up to AV12 *and* add large quantities of highly volatile liquid.

But I imagine you would have a lot of SM players crying about the Rhino needing thicker armor...

They can keep it AV10 and just lower the price a good chunk and i will be a happy guardsman.

I'd be happy with getting any bone thrown to my poor chimeras. I'm just looking at what I think to be a best case senario.

I've always thought of it this way Chimeras only have decednt armor on the front because thats the only direction Imperial Commanders want their troops to go, forward!

I don't think its unreasonable for Chimeras to have better armor on the side, I just think its the sort of thing that wouldn't neccisarily be standard on all chimeras.

Everyones been talking about turret weapons, but how about the hull weapon, is there some way that could be improved? Allow a heavy stubber maybe?

Um.... Heavy Stubbers have inferior characteristic compared to Heavy Bolters.... Just, you know, putting that out there... Never heard anyone complain about the Heavy Bolter being too good or anything.... maybe make it HB/HF standard, considering those are the only two options... Make it free, comes with the tank. The turret weapon is pretty docile, in my opinion. I've never found a use for the Multi-laser over the HB, but some people like it. It would also be nice to see an autocannon as an option, though I think a Lascannon is a bit ambitious, though given that the IG has near zero flexibility, it shouldn't be outlandish. That's really the Imperial Guard's problem, though; no flexibility.

I just meant it'd be interesting to see some other weapon options for the hull mount. HS was just one thought, how about a multi-melta or something... not really IG but we're just tossing ideas around.

I suggest Heavy Bolter and/or Heavy Flamer (some people find them useful as a hull mount? I've never actually seen them used as a hull mount). Multi-melta isn't really guard, but a regular melta would be okay (hey, logistically, why not?).