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Both are amazing. The former gets the latter & its even better. Why dont I see them more? I played against them and they were insane!

I have 3 teams of them and they are MEQ killers. My problem is that they seem like a flank unit and each time you loose 1 drone you have to make a Ld check because taking 25% casualties.... That and I would rather have another Hammerhead or Broadsides....

Three reasons-

Kill points for each squad
They take up a heavy support slot
Because of the spotter they can't move and shoot so they are very static.

But the biggest reason is the heavy support spot, I'd rather have broadsides or a couple hammerheads.

I agree, they do 2 things we can't afford to do as Tau players: use up a slot meant for railguns, and give away kill points. Even if they FAQ out the vehicle drones KP, which I doubt they will, the kill points for these hurts really bad.
3 rail rifles and a markerlight for 80 points is nice, if only there was some way to shimmy these guys into a fast attack slot.

On a slightly similar topic, rail rifles on pathfinders? I know you're PAYING 10 points to LOSE A MARKERLIGHT which angers me to no end. However, I can maybe see myself fielding 2 'finder teams of 8, each with 2 or 3 rifles. The swap should be free imo, but hey. what do I know?

If the swap cost only 5 points I'd do it, however at ten points that is a full firewarrior I'm giving up for each rail rifile. I'd rather keep the markerlight and still have the option of shooting at something on the move if needed. But if the cost was only 5 points.....

asugradinwa is right. The biggest negative on sniper teams is that it costs a slot that could be used to take a rail gun platform. Especially in 40K 5, I think that spamming Rail Guns are a necessity for Tau.

centurian99 wrote:Especially in 40K 5, I think that spamming Rail Guns are a necessity for Tau.

I think spam might be a strong word, but they're an extremely strong alternative to the melta dependency other armies seem to have now, and we're one of the only armies able to field a S10/AP1 weapon.

Besides, this parallels a modern warfare paradigm: control the airspace, control the battlefield.

Centurian99 wrote:asugradinwa is right. The biggest negative on sniper teams is that it costs a slot that could be used to take a rail gun platform. Especially in 40K 5, I think that spamming Rail Guns are a necessity for Tau.

Cough cough....

burb1996 wrote:That and I would rather have another Hammerhead or Broadsides....

Now in friendly games against people I play regularly I will sometimes pull out the sniper drones....but if its a pickup game or a FLGS tourney....railguns all the way.

The Defenestrator wrote:

centurian99 wrote:Especially in 40K 5, I think that spamming Rail Guns are a necessity for Tau.

I think spam might be a strong word, but they're an extremely strong alternative to the melta dependency other armies seem to have now, and we're one of the only armies able to field a S10/AP1 weapon.

Besides, this parallels a modern warfare paradigm: control the airspace, control the battlefield.

By spam, I mean taking as many as possible. I'm also becoming convinced that on a table where nob bikers are going to make an appearance, Tau's only real hope is to have 9 broadsides and enough markerlights to remove their cover save.

Although its a shame, because DD1 made up two hammerheads that look so pretty. :( Where we could get away with having 3-4 rail guns in 3rd and 4th ed., I think that taking less than 6 essentially concedes the game against land raider rush, nob bikerz, and ironclad/dread spam.

The S10 AP1 with effectively unlimited range (on a 6x4 table) is just simply superior to every other option in the Tau HS roster. Everything else can be gotten from other slots...except the rail guns.

Properly constructed Tau, better than anyone else, can live up to the most important of modern military paradigms: If you can see it, you can kill it.

Stealth fields people.. If you shoot at one of these units and fail the 2d6x3 roll you loose your shooting action. Railrifles are heavy weapons so are stactic neways. As is the general theme for snipers.

2 hammer heads is more than enough. Broadsides are good for a dedicated list of suits or larger games perhaps.

You get 3 marker lights which can fire independantly of the rest of the unit. str 6 (its not sniper here but actually a decent str) means its quite good at pinging AV 12 or less when theres no troops to shoot.

Theres enough heavy weaponary in the other support choices (hq, elites, fast attack) to make up for that one lost broadside & neways.. what are broadsides gonna do against marines? Ping them to death?

But fine, ill just deal with one decent tau army player and you can field lots of railguns

Razerous wrote:what are broadsides gonna do against marines? Ping them to death?

Smart Missile System?!?!? Twin Linked Plasma? With the latter option I whipped a Termie squad in 2 turns that was sitting on my objective.

Razerous wrote:Stealth fields people.. If you shoot at one of these units and fail the 2d6x3 roll you loose your shooting action. Railrifles are heavy weapons so are stactic neways. As is the general theme for snipers.

2 hammer heads is more than enough. Broadsides are good for a dedicated list of suits or larger games perhaps.

You get 3 marker lights which can fire independantly of the rest of the unit. str 6 (its not sniper here but actually a decent str) means its quite good at pinging AV 12 or less when theres no troops to shoot.

Theres enough heavy weaponary in the other support choices (hq, elites, fast attack) to make up for that one lost broadside & neways.. what are broadsides gonna do against marines? Ping them to death?

But fine, ill just deal with one decent tau army player and you can field lots of railguns

Don't over rely on those fields. One turn of movement and they are in the better than 50/50 range of being able to see and they don't stand up to blast weapons at all. Now through in the other guy having infiltrators and/or acute senses, it doesn't get any better. Once most opponents are within 24 inches they will take the chance and odds are it'll pay off for them. I'd rather they were fast attacks with2 stealthsuits as controllers with 6 drones as a single 200-220 pt team. Then the sniper drones could jet pack. Wha-? A man can dream can't he? Oh yeah not if he's going off-topic.

The only good use I've come up for them is to set up mid-board just far enough in to put my pathfinders in behind them. Markers aren't affected by coversaves and PFs Get a cheesy cover save if the board is light on terrain. Problem is I fight a lot of mech in transports with tanks charging alongside. Not good time to use Sniper drones. Used to work before when I used speed bump drones. Now the KPS Kill me. I take the points and put them into XV-8s with plasma. Still love to use them in a friendly game but not if I want to give someone a good competitive game.

It may work different for you. If it does, Please let me know which tactics you and your opponent used.

I'm not sure I entirely agree. I have done just fine so far with 2 Hammerheads and a Skyray. To me the key to winning with Tau now is spamming Markerlights where ever you can. I really think the Skyray is a valuable piece of equipment now. It's the one of the only solid ways to get a mobile Markerlights in a Tau army without using FW Tetras. It also has the ability to rain down 6 seeker missiles on hard targets like Nob Bikers or MC's in a turn if need be. The Railguns take care of things like Monoliths and LR's. The biggest thing that the Tau have going for them is the ability to force multiply with markerlights. Stripping cover saves, making things BS5, and pinning are what helps Tau. Railguns are nice, but only when they are getting help from markerlights do railguns really work good.

Capt K

Centurian99 wrote:

The Defenestrator wrote:

centurian99 wrote:Especially in 40K 5, I think that spamming Rail Guns are a necessity for Tau.

I think spam might be a strong word, but they're an extremely strong alternative to the melta dependency other armies seem to have now, and we're one of the only armies able to field a S10/AP1 weapon.

Besides, this parallels a modern warfare paradigm: control the airspace, control the battlefield.

By spam, I mean taking as many as possible. I'm also becoming convinced that on a table where nob bikers are going to make an appearance, Tau's only real hope is to have 9 broadsides and enough markerlights to remove their cover save.

Although its a shame, because DD1 made up two hammerheads that look so pretty. :( Where we could get away with having 3-4 rail guns in 3rd and 4th ed., I think that taking less than 6 essentially concedes the game against land raider rush, nob bikerz, and ironclad/dread spam.

The S10 AP1 with effectively unlimited range (on a 6x4 table) is just simply superior to every other option in the Tau HS roster. Everything else can be gotten from other slots...except the rail guns.

Properly constructed Tau, better than anyone else, can live up to the most important of modern military paradigms: If you can see it, you can kill it.

burb1996 wrote:

Razerous wrote:what are broadsides gonna do against marines? Ping them to death?

Smart Missile System?!?!? Twin Linked Plasma? With the latter option I whipped a Termie squad in 2 turns that was sitting on my objective.

Broadsides are nearly the price of 3 decent sniper guns & one markerlight - all independant guns.If you start adding on gubbins then they become more expensive. A waste of points because thier just too weak. Shield drones and keeping them at railgun range is fine but making them crazy hard with lotsa weapons. - risky. Ineffeicent.

Markerlights, agreed. Just adds so much utility. So skyray would be win.

The snipers drone team comes to 20pts/model with the markerlight being a fair trade for a railgun. Thats not too expensive for sniper units and as you can get 3 of them per slot, it makes good use of that precious heavy sup slot.

4+ save, easily doable with a 4+ cover save (small unit and long range) with those stealthfields make them quite surviveable too! Having alot of fields on the field (... lol) is a win/loose 1) the enemy have a increasingly higher chance to loose shots (but) 2) you could force your enemy to focous thier fire on your weaker units (scoring fire warriors) as surer shots.

I like the idea of 4-5 man stealth teams with a fusion gun.. a nice amount of fire power (the JSJ ability) and the one AT shot in a relatively small unit. 3+ save, cant complain.

CaptKaruthors wrote:I'm not sure I entirely agree. I have done just fine so far with 2 Hammerheads and a Skyray. To me the key to winning with Tau now is spamming Markerlights where ever you can. I really think the Skyray is a valuable piece of equipment now. It's the one of the only solid ways to get a mobile Markerlights in a Tau army without using FW Tetras. It also has the ability to rain down 6 seeker missiles on hard targets like Nob Bikers or MC's in a turn if need be. The Railguns take care of things like Monoliths and LR's. The biggest thing that the Tau have going for them is the ability to force multiply with markerlights. Stripping cover saves, making things BS5, and pinning are what helps Tau. Railguns are nice, but only when they are getting help from markerlights do railguns really work good.

Capt K

I agree on the Skyray...I advised Yakface to take our TT army and build up a skyray turret for one of the Hammerheads, and actually run with 6 broadsides and a Skyray.

This was, of course, before the evil that is nob bikerz reared its ugly head. The only thing I could think of that had a prayer against them were massed rail guns (although now that I think about it, massed fusion rifles could theoretically do it as well, but its problematic getting enough crisis suits to bear to make that trick work, so you're limited to pirahna-spam.

If you like them, go for it. But I agree with what others have said in that they are the weakest heavy choice.

Think about it in terms other than how the were in one or two games against your army.

Tau's heavy support need to do what the other elements of the army cant do, namely take out hard targets at long range.

No other slot lets you do this. Sniper drones are marine killers, but not very good at it, really. If you take three full squads, and we will be generous here, they hit 6 times, and kill three marines in cover, so what? You just spent 240 points to kill three marines a turn. Take an ion head instead, its mobile, cheaper, much more resilient, gives up less kill points, and hits hard.

Fire warriors and kroot would be more effective for you for the points at killing marines, plus they are scoring and mobile.

Arguing that combining them with pathfinders (or any marker lights) is pointless as marker lights assist any unit in the Tau army.

Sniper drones are not good at taking out heavy units. Plus, anything assaults them and they die. I wouldn't even bother shooting them, they aren't enough of a threat and the risk of losing a unit's shooting just further reinforces this.

Now, hammer heads, broadsides or even sky rays on the other hand, are harder to kill, hit harder and most importantly, can shred hard targets like tanks, nob bikers, etc. at long range.

There really is no reason to take sniper drones in anything but friendly games as I see it. I would be happy to be proven wrong, as I love variety in lists, but I simply do not think it will happen. Every time I play against sniper drones they do nearly nothing to affect the games outcome. My imperial guard really laugh at them and thank the emperor there are no rail cannons or flachette rounds.

I agree on the Skyray...I advised Yakface to take our TT army and build up a skyray turret for one of the Hammerheads, and actually run with 6 broadsides and a Skyray.

This was, of course, before the evil that is nob bikerz reared its ugly head. The only thing I could think of that had a prayer against them were massed rail guns (although now that I think about it, massed fusion rifles could theoretically do it as well, but its problematic getting enough crisis suits to bear to make that trick work, so you're limited to pirahna-spam.

How would you handle a charge from Snikrot with the broadsides in the backfield? I love broadsides, but they seem too vulnerable to the Snikrot "crutch" unit that Ork players seem to use. In all my test games with my new Tau army the Skyray has been such a tremendous help. So far I am undefeated with my Tau build...and that's vs. some pretty strong builds.

CaptKaruthors wrote:

I agree on the Skyray...I advised Yakface to take our TT army and build up a skyray turret for one of the Hammerheads, and actually run with 6 broadsides and a Skyray.

This was, of course, before the evil that is nob bikerz reared its ugly head. The only thing I could think of that had a prayer against them were massed rail guns (although now that I think about it, massed fusion rifles could theoretically do it as well, but its problematic getting enough crisis suits to bear to make that trick work, so you're limited to pirahna-spam.

How would you handle a charge from Snikrot with the broadsides in the backfield? I love broadsides, but they seem too vulnerable to the Snikrot "crutch" unit that Ork players seem to use. In all my test games with my new Tau army the Skyray has been such a tremendous help. So far I am undefeated with my Tau build...and that's vs. some pretty strong builds.

One, I'm of the firm belief that ASS is a required upgrade with Broadsides. So by the time snikkrot arrives, my broadsides might not be anywhere he can assault them. Second, there's the 2+ armor, which is always nice. And third, if Snikkrot's around, having a squad of Kroot surrounding the Broadsides seems like a really, really, good idea.

One, I'm of the firm belief that ASS is a required upgrade with Broadsides. So by the time snikkrot arrives, my broadsides might not be anywhere he can assault them. Second, there's the 2+ armor, which is always nice. And third, if Snikkrot's around, having a squad of Kroot surrounding the Broadsides seems like a really, really, good idea.

Oh I fully agree that it is totally mandatory...just from the standpoint of DoW missions. Another nice bonus to taking the ASS also allows you to gain mobile Markerlight Drones in that unit if you have the points to take them...which is nice. Surrounding them with a unit seems like a decent solution, but I hate giving up a scoring unit to protect a non scoring unit. I'd rather just keep the Broadsides moving.

Capt K

Centurian99:

So, would you say that your opinion is that Broadsides really need ASS?

A skyray full salvo of seekers is actually really good against nob bikes. Sufficient markerlight hits would be hard to pull off, but 8 markers could bring turbo-boosting bikes down to their 5+ cybork save and drop 6 S8 missiles on them. Course with my luck with seekers that means that 3 will hit, 1 will wound, and the 5+ save will gobble it - but the average player may have better luck with it.

Average nobs killed with 8 markers + full skyray salvo.
6 missiles
5 hit
4 wound
.66 unsaved wounds on warboss
2 dead nobs

Average nobs killed with 4 markers + 3 broadside salvo
3 railguns
3 hit
2.5 wound
2 dead nobs (warboss would not be nominated)

Similar results in the one turn of shooting you'll get with either unit before losing the unit, or the markerlight support. Skyray then moves into tank-shocking + skimmer-wall role while providing more markers to try to pin the nobs with, broadsides try to stay alive and get more shots in.

Am I the only one here who likes submunition with markerlights to reduce cover saves on nob biker squads?

Full pathfinder squad averages 4 hits. Each of 2 railheads uses 2 markerlights apiece. +1 BS and -1 cover. That's if they have the 5++
If no 5++, then you just give them +1 BS and -3 cover (or -2/-2 cover from 2 different Railheads).

Wounded easily, armor penetrated, cover evaporated = nobs dead.

Why use massed solid shots or fusion blasters? I'm completely lost. Even a pair of +2 BS rapid firing warriors has to be better than that. 48 BS 5 S5 shots kills 5 nobs even if they do have 4+ armor/cover. Most lists can barely scrape together 5 fusion/rail SHOTS, let alone applied wounds.

Massed pirhanas as an answer ?!?!

Rmeju

Because when they turboboost they are getting a 3+ cover save. You have to burn at least 3 markerlight hits to strip their save to a 6+...4 hits to negate it. Submunitions doesn't insta-kill them either...so most likely you'll do a handful of wounds...but not kill a single nob. Skyrays and Railguns will drop one nob for each failed save. How I've been handling Nob Bikers is entirely dependent on what my opponent is doing with them. If they boost them up a flank...I'll usually ignore them for that turn and move laterally away from them. Shoot the piss out of the rest of his army and deal with them next turn. If they boost up the middle, they will face the entire ire of my army. I will use every available markerlight on that squad to make them die...or at least gut the unit to a more manageable level for later rounds of shooting. Once the unit is sort of contained I'll move onto killing the other crap in his army.

Capt K

rmeju wrote:Am I the only one here who likes submunition with markerlights to reduce cover saves on nob biker squads?

Full pathfinder squad averages 4 hits. Each of 2 railheads uses 2 markerlights apiece. +1 BS and -1 cover. That's if they have the 5++
If no 5++, then you just give them +1 BS and -3 cover (or -2/-2 cover from 2 different Railheads).

Wounded easily, armor penetrated, cover evaporated = nobs dead.

Why use massed solid shots or fusion blasters? I'm completely lost. Even a pair of +2 BS rapid firing warriors has to be better than that. 48 BS 5 S5 shots kills 5 nobs even if they do have 4+ armor/cover. Most lists can barely scrape together 5 fusion/rail SHOTS, let alone applied wounds.

Massed pirhanas as an answer ?!?!

Rmeju

Yup. After a round of shooting basically, 4-5 nobs are dead..and taking a test...which is important. If they didn't turboboost the alternative is to pin them and move on to dealing with the other aspects of the army for a turn...although you will need to either go first...or wait until they have closed the distance (which usually means they are already in your lines).

Capt K

Moz wrote:A skyray full salvo of seekers is actually really good against nob bikes. Sufficient markerlight hits would be hard to pull off, but 8 markers could bring turbo-boosting bikes down to their 5+ cybork save and drop 6 S8 missiles on them. Course with my luck with seekers that means that 3 will hit, 1 will wound, and the 5+ save will gobble it - but the average player may have better luck with it.

Average nobs killed with 8 markers + full skyray salvo.
6 missiles
5 hit
4 wound
.66 unsaved wounds on warboss
2 dead nobs

Average nobs killed with 4 markers + 3 broadside salvo
3 railguns
3 hit
2.5 wound
2 dead nobs (warboss would not be nominated)

Similar results in the one turn of shooting you'll get with either unit before losing the unit, or the markerlight support. Skyray then moves into tank-shocking + skimmer-wall role while providing more markers to try to pin the nobs with, broadsides try to stay alive and get more shots in.

off-topic)@ Karuthers, Your over estimating the shooting effectiveness of the pathfinders or running 2 squads.


Sub- munitions is the way to go. Save markers for cover reduction. The firing comes from 2 different tanks and with the remove whole models your gonna get 3-4 dead bikers per turn with that combo. Unless your scatter really hates you.

Also, 2 hammerheads = price of 3 kitted broadsides. Just what do you do with third heavy slot?


Back on topic) If you want to run the drones go for it. They might fit nicely between 2 hammerheads for the price. Then 2 PF squads of 6, 2fire warrior squads to climb into the PF Devilfish, A kroot squad Flanking w/hounds, and the rest what ever feels right.


Edited for clarity

Subunition rounds are the absolute worst thing to use against the nob bikerz. you'll never kill any models with it, because the Ork bikers spread wounds out.

Nurglitch, yes, I'd consider ASS a mandatory upgrade. Simply making the broadsides mobile gives them huge advantages.

If you are going to take pathfinders at all in your army you want 2 squads instead of one. I always take two for redundancy and it's the only real cost effective way to get loads of markerlights in your list.

Capt K

focusedfire wrote:off-topic)@ Karuthers, Your over estimating the shooting effectiveness of the pathfinders or running 2 squads.


Sub- munitions is the way to go. Save markers for cover reduction. The firing comes from 2 different tanks and with the remove whole models your gonna get 3-4 dead bikers per turn with that combo. Unless your scatter really hates you.

Also, 2 hammerheads = price of 3 kitted broadsides. Just what do you do with third heavy slot?


Back on topic) If you want to run the drones go for it. They might fit nicely between 2 hammerheads for the price. Then 2 PF squads of 6, 2fire warrior squads to climb into the PF Devilfish, A kroot squad Flanking w/hounds, and the rest what ever feels right.


Edited for clarity

Sub- munitions is the way to go. Save markers for cover reduction. The firing comes from 2 different tanks and with the remove whole models your gonna get 3-4 dead bikers per turn with that combo. Unless your scatter really hates you.

What are you talking about? Submunitions is Strength 6...Biker Nobs are T5 with 2 wounds, FNP, a 4+ cover save, and a 5+ invulerable save. You are totally deluding yourself if you think you can drop 3-4 biker nobs with two submunitions shots from 2 hammerheads...LOL.

Capt K

Nurglitch, yes, I'd consider ASS a mandatory upgrade. Simply making the broadsides mobile gives them huge advantages.

QFT

Not as much as you if you think 8 pathfinder and a skyray=6 seeker shots a turn.

5+ inv- whoo hoo I've seen how much 4+ lets me down

4+ cover taken to 6+ with markers

Feel no pain is a problem but look at the points usage of dumping everything into rail guns.


Tactically, I think everyone is getting pulled into a slight of hand here where everyone looks at the nobs and says gotta nail them fast. Its kinda like when a cron player bring the deciever. What do you do? Dump shots into the bullet soak or Phase out his army? Why fight a god if you don't have to.

We could, instead of dumping all our energy into the Nobs, wipe everything else out and leave them with only 2 squads that are most of the time gonna have to objective sit. 2 Rounds for what little is left after 2 very pts heavy squads, 3-4 rounds to bang on the bikers. If his bikers charge you, then lead them away from the objective. Focuse all of your fire on just one bike squad until it goes away.

Just an Idea

Edited for punctuation