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If a turbo-boost is made as part of a scout move (example: ork deffkoptas) before the first turn and the opponent of the ork player shoots at the deffkoptas during the first half of the first turn, do the deffkoptas get a 3+ cover save or just user their 4+ armor save? (Keep in mind the ork player hasn't taken his first turn yet).

I hope this hasn't been covered yet, I did do a search before posting.

Thank you for helping me make a call. - I also submitted this same question to askyourquestion@games-workshop.com but I wanted to see what "You Make Da Call" had to say about it. Thanks all!

Relevant rules quotes:

Turbo-boosters, p. 76 wrote:When using their turbo-boosters they may move up to 24" in the Movement phase.
...
In the following enemy Shooting phase, the bike benefits from a cover save of 3+....

Scouts, p. 76 wrote:This is done exactly as in their Movement phase....

I'd go with yes.

You always get a 3+ cover save for turbo-boosting, but you're still in trouble:

Scout units are not allowed to turbo-boost during the scout move.

Check out page 76 of the rules under the scout rule: ...after both sides have deployed (including infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move.

A normal move for a Deffkopta is 12". Turbo-boosting is a special move utilizing a special rule, and is disallowed during scout moves.

Dashofpepper wrote:You always get a 3+ cover save for turbo-boosting, but you're still in trouble:

Scout units are not allowed to turbo-boost during the scout move.

Check out page 76 of the rules under the scout rule: ...after both sides have deployed (including infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move.

A normal move for a Deffkopta is 12". Turbo-boosting is a special move utilizing a special rule, and is disallowed during scout moves.

I would agree with you if the Official FAQ didn't specifically say that you may turbo-boost a unit during scout moves. (However, something to keep in mind is that if a Codex says in it that a unit cannot turbo-boost during it's scout move specifically, then that overrules everything and they cannot turbo-boost to scout.).

Example: Ork Deffkoptas can turbo-boost scout move and Ravenwing bikes CANNOT turbo-boost scout move.

Thanks for the Relevant rules quotes Janthkin.

Well, I said no.

I realize my reasoning is a bit weak, but I will explain why.

First, it is not clear that it is happening during the actual game. Deployment is clearly before the game, and turn one is clearly during the game..... Scout moves are between those two.
Second, it says you get the save on the "following" shooting phase. That is slightly different than saying "next" shooting phase.
Since it is happening outside of the turn sequence, there really is no phase that follows that movement; something entirely new starts. (the turns...)


Now, I admit these are not overly strong arguments, but lets look at what can happen otherwise:
I turboboost my bikes, then I get to go first, move my bikes, and shoot.
On your turn.... I would still get my 3+ save; since it is the "next" enemy shooting phase.

Yuck!

If the FAQ (the official one) specifically allows turbo-boosting during the scout move, then I stand corrected and also say you can do it.

coredump wrote:Well, I said no.

I realize my reasoning is a bit weak, but I will explain why.

First, it is not clear that it is happening during the actual game. Deployment is clearly before the game, and turn one is clearly during the game..... Scout moves are between those two.
Second, it says you get the save on the "following" shooting phase. That is slightly different than saying "next" shooting phase.

Note it ACTUALLY says on the following enemy shooting phase. So the save applies.

coredump wrote:
Now, I admit these are not overly strong arguments, but lets look at what can happen otherwise:
I turboboost my bikes, then I get to go first, move my bikes, and shoot.
On your turn.... I would still get my 3+ save; since it is the "next" enemy shooting phase.

Granted the Raw allows for "scout, move, shoot, coversaves" but I don't seeing anybody but the MOST extreme TFG trying to play it this way.

I voted yes.

coredump wrote:
Now, I admit these are not overly strong arguments, but lets look at what can happen otherwise:
I turboboost my bikes, then I get to go first, move my bikes, and shoot.
On your turn.... I would still get my 3+ save; since it is the "next" enemy shooting phase.

Yuck!

Although I don't believe it works this way, I do like your fresh perspective. I'm a bit tired right now so here's my best off the top of my head as to why I don't believe it works your way:

After your take a 12 inch move the 3+ cover is forfeit in my opinion... and I'm guessing the great majority is with me... though I could be wrong.

I'll agree on the cover save for TB scouts if the next enemy shooting phase is before the scouts move again. If they take a regular movement phase after scouting and don't TB it's forfeit. Argue RAW all you want, you know you're being silly.

Note it ACTUALLY says on the following enemy shooting phase. So the save applies.

I understand. I am making a distinction between the "following phase" and the "next phase"

My argument is that the scout move is not part of the standard game, it happens before the game starts. Therefore there is no 'following' enemy shooting phase. The 'next' enemy shooting phase is part of a different part of the game, so does not count.

Again, I realize this is a bit shaky, but it is meant to be the rulesy response to someone trying to Turbo, move, and still get the 3++ save.

My 'house rule' would be that the save from a turbo boost "lasts until the players next movement phase"

I think I got lost in the conversation here somewhere.

Turbo-boosting during the scout move gives a 3+ cover save (RAW + FAQ).

Turbo-boosting during Turn 1 gives a 3+ cover save (RAW).

Is there something else being said?

Dashofpepper wrote:Is there something else being said?

Yes... by RAW the cover save from turboboosting during scout movement would apply even if you start the game and make a normal move before the first enemy shooting phase. Silly in the extreme ofc, but then TB is probably a straight copy-paste from an age when scouts couldn't use it.

Spetulhu wrote:Yes... by RAW the cover save from turboboosting during scout movement would apply even if you start the game and make a normal move before the first enemy shooting phase. Silly in the extreme ofc, but then TB is probably a straight copy-paste from an age when scouts couldn't use it.

Haha, I missed that.

Wow, I'll love the look of my opponent's face when I tell him my kopta that just destroyed his vindicator still got a 3+ cover save from the scout boosting.

I'm confused still. :(

Lets presume I go second. We deploy, and I have my Deffkoptas turboboost 20" across the board toward the enemy deployment lines.

Now, my opponent goes and he fires at my Deffkoptas. They have just turbo-boosted and should have a 3+ cover save. Is there a problem with that somewhere?

it sounds like the REAL question is whether or not you're allowed to turbo-boost as a scout move.

I would be inclined to agree that a scout move allows you to make a 'normal move', and therefore you can only move your 'normal' 12". Now, nowhere in the section for turbo-boosting does it say you may substitute your 'normal move' for a 'turbo-boost'. In fact, it explicitly states "they may move up to 24" in their movement phase", which the scout move is not technically. Which again leads me to believe you're not allowed to turboboost as part of your scout move.

Besides, all I can picture here is an ork player going first: deploys his koptas 12" in, turboboosts 24" as scout move, then first turn jumps 12" over a tank and gets turn 1 rear armour shots with rokkits. Oi vey! Or being able to turn 1 big bomm any unit on the board, more or less.

The Defenestrator wrote:it sounds like the REAL question is whether or not you're allowed to turbo-boost as a scout move.

I would be inclined to agree that a scout move allows you to make a 'normal move', and therefore you can only move your 'normal' 12". Now, nowhere in the section for turbo-boosting does it say you may substitute your 'normal move' for a 'turbo-boost'. In fact, it explicitly states "they may move up to 24" in their movement phase", which the scout move is not technically. Which again leads me to believe you're not allowed to turboboost as part of your scout move.

Besides, all I can picture here is an ork player going first: deploys his koptas 12" in, turboboosts 24" as scout move, then first turn jumps 12" over a tank and gets turn 1 rear armour shots with rokkits. Oi vey! Or being able to turn 1 big bomm any unit on the board, more or less.

Actually that's not the REAL question, because the FAQ for the core rulebook clearly states that a bike model that makes a scout move can opt to turboboost during that move.

There is no debate about being able to turboboost as a scout move. It is in the FAQ.

The question is if moving as a scout move will provide a 3++ cover.

First scenario, is you go second. So you turbo, and then the opponent goes. Do you get a 3+ save?

Second scenario is you go first. So you turbo, and then you move/shoot/assault/whatever. Then your opponent goes. Do you get a 3+ cover save.

The big problem, is I see no way to say Yes to the first, but say No to the second.

There are arguments for saying no to both, and arguments for saying yes to both. To be honest, I think the arguments for yes to both are stronger, but I am willing to take the shaky way out to prevent the second scenario.

Agreed with Coredump for exactly the same reasons. I can see a possible RAW response for both situations being "yes", but the latter seems very wrong.

It seems pretty clear cut to me.

1. If you turbo-boost during the scout move, and your opponent takes the first turn, you have a 3+ cover save. That's pretty clear in the rules.

2. If you turbo-boost during the scout move, and you take the first turn, and you turbo-boost again, you will still have a 3+ cover save on your opponent's turn. Remember, when you turbo-boost, you can't do anything.

3. If you turbo-boost during the scout move, and then you take the first turn and you don't turbo-boost again; IE, you make a normal move, and execute a shooting action, you will not have a 3+ cover save on your opponent's turn since you didn't turbo-boost during your turn.

It seems clear, yes... but when reading the rules like the devil reads the bible it's not. ;-)

Dashofpepper wrote:It seems pretty clear cut to me.

1. If you turbo-boost during the scout move, and your opponent takes the first turn, you have a 3+ cover save. That's pretty clear in the rules.

2. If you turbo-boost during the scout move, and you take the first turn, and you turbo-boost again, you will still have a 3+ cover save on your opponent's turn. Remember, when you turbo-boost, you can't do anything.

3. If you turbo-boost during the scout move, and then you take the first turn and you don't turbo-boost again; IE, you make a normal move, and execute a shooting action, you will not have a 3+ cover save on your opponent's turn since you didn't turbo-boost during your turn.

This is how I would implement this as well... It's most 'fair' and makes most sense.

Dashofpepper wrote:It seems pretty clear cut to me.

1. If you turbo-boost during the scout move, and your opponent takes the first turn, you have a 3+ cover save. That's pretty clear in the rules.

2. If you turbo-boost during the scout move, and you take the first turn, and you turbo-boost again, you will still have a 3+ cover save on your opponent's turn. Remember, when you turbo-boost, you can't do anything.

3. If you turbo-boost during the scout move, and then you take the first turn and you don't turbo-boost again; IE, you make a normal move, and execute a shooting action, you will not have a 3+ cover save on your opponent's turn since you didn't turbo-boost during your turn.

On 3. I think most people feel that's the correct way. But it's certainly not what the rules say.

Webbe wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:It seems pretty clear cut to me.

1. If you turbo-boost during the scout move, and your opponent takes the first turn, you have a 3+ cover save. That's pretty clear in the rules.

2. If you turbo-boost during the scout move, and you take the first turn, and you turbo-boost again, you will still have a 3+ cover save on your opponent's turn. Remember, when you turbo-boost, you can't do anything.

3. If you turbo-boost during the scout move, and then you take the first turn and you don't turbo-boost again; IE, you make a normal move, and execute a shooting action, you will not have a 3+ cover save on your opponent's turn since you didn't turbo-boost during your turn.

On 3. I think most people feel that's the correct way. But it's certainly not what the rules say.

I wouldn't go so far as "certainly not." What is the "following enemy shooting phase"? It might be synonomous with "next enemy shooting phase," but it might be "next shooting phase, if it belongs to an enemy." It seems forced to read "following" as covering the enemy's shooting phase, if there is a extra whole player turn between the turboboost and the "following" enemy shooting phase.

I was just re-reading the deployment rules.

The scout move is *not* part of the game. It is part of set up. It is explicitly written.
You deploy, infiltrate, scout.
Then
Start game.

So I have no problem at all not allowing things that happen before the game affect the game.
So I say no 3++ save at all. If the turboboost didn't happen during the game, it doesn't affect the game.

coredump wrote:
I was just re-reading the deployment rules.

The scout move is *not* part of the game. It is part of set up. It is explicitly written.
You deploy, infiltrate, scout.
Then
Start game.

So I have no problem at all not allowing things that happen before the game affect the game.
So I say no 3++ save at all. If the turboboost didn't happen during the game, it doesn't affect the game.

This is why I posted the question in the first place.

However, I feel that you would get a 3+ cover save due to the following (As Janthkin stated above)

Relevant rules quotes:

Turbo-boosters, p. 76 wrote:When using their turbo-boosters they may move up to 24" in the Movement phase.
...
In the following enemy Shooting phase, the bike benefits from a cover save of 3+....



Scouts, p. 76 wrote:This is done exactly as in their Movement phase....




I also would like to weigh in and say that trying to turbo-boost, then taking the first round of the first turn (moving, shooting, etc), and then trying to claim a 3+ cover save is ridiculous.


So... that being said, when I run a tourney it will work like the following:

1. If you turbo-boost during the scout move, and your opponent takes the first turn, you have a 3+ cover save. That's pretty clear in the rules.

2. If you turbo-boost during the scout move, and you take the first turn, and you turbo-boost again, you will still have a 3+ cover save on your opponent's turn. Remember, when you turbo-boost, you can't do anything.

3. If you turbo-boost during the scout move, and then you take the first turn and you don't turbo-boost again; IE, you make a normal move, and execute a shooting action, you will not have a 3+ cover save on your opponent's turn since you didn't turbo-boost during your turn.


I'd love to see an FAQ or at least have the INAT FAQ make a ruling on it. I'm also still waiting for a response from John Spencer.

Also, the poll above seems to indicate that people are using a 3+ cover from scout move turbo-boosts anyway.

Thank you for the feedback all. I'm not trying to kill this thread, so if you have something more to say on the matter please do.

I'm pretty secure on the ruling at least for games I have a say in the rulings on...which to me is really what matters since I judge and run tourneys.

To me, there is no 'following enemy shooting phase'; because you are not even playing the actual game yet. It would be akin to saying "I turbo boosted on turn 6 of my last game, so I get a 3++ now"

You get a special way to deploy (or redeploy) using the movement/TB rules, but since yo have not started playing the game yet, it should not have an effect on the game.

I don't agree Core.
Yes, in all three deployment types the phase "Start the game! " is there , but the following paragraph also has the statement " starts game Turn 1 with his first player turn."
I take the "start the game!" as a "Here we go!" type statement and not a rule.
Player 1's turn starts at this point (or player 2 if he Seized the Initiative)
The game starts at the inital set up, otherwise why are there rules for it?

Same reason there is a coin toss before a Football (american) game. setting up is before the actual game.

Core, they would have to get their 3+ cover save, or else you would have to ignore all the other rules that go with the scout move. It is all or nothing.

In order to take away the 3+ cover save you must take away all the other movement rules for the scout phase as well. For example, by your idea of the rules, no model should be able to die during a scout move, since the game hasn't "started" yet. This means than non-turbo boosting bikes, that make a scout move, would be able to move through difficult terrain without taking dangerous terrain tests..which is absurd.

When you make a scout move, you gain all the benefits and risks that come with it, including dangerous terrain tests or a 3+ cover save from turbo-boosting. You can't arbitrarily choose to enforce one part of the movement rules, while ignoring others, since the scout move rule says to treat it as a normal move.

Rules as written, I'ld have to say you get a 3+ save from the first round of enemy shooting if you turboboost in the scout move, even if you then move normally.

With that being said GW, CAN WE PLEASE HAVE A REAL FAQ, INCLUDING A REVISION TO THE ABOVE!?!?!