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Well, last year I played mech Eldar in the GT heat and final.
This year I'm toying with Emperor's Children or Space Marines.

Here is the SM list:

Librarian w/ terminator armor, storm shield, nullzone, gate - 140

10 Terminators w/ cyclone x2 - 460

10 Assault Terminators w/ thunder hammer x10 - 400

7 Terminators w/ cyclone - 310

10 Tactical Marines w/ plasma cannon, melta - 180

10 Tactical Marines w/ missile launcher, flamer - 170

6 Scouts w/ sniper rifle x4, missile launcher - 98

Total: 1748 pts.

Thoughts?

Nice army list, however the only weakness I can see is it's lack of dedicated anti-tank ranged weapons, so will have trouble against mech armies (not eldar or tau because they have low vehicle armour values)

it looking gd but you need a gd tank maybe a predator or whirlwind for ranged weaponry and i agree with Krellnus
you could also do with transport
wats ur play style

jammy wrote:it looking gd but you need a gd tank maybe a predator or whirlwind for ranged weaponry and i agree with Krellnus
you could also do with transport
wats ur play style

Please use proper english when you post. This isnt a text message, you dont have a character limit.

@ Wuestenfux

Anti-tank and mobility are the two problems with this list. That 7 man terminator squad seems a bit out of place. I would drop them to give both your tacticals lascannon, meltas and razorbacks with TL-lascannon. This would leave you with enough points remaining to get another one of your librarians to go with the other terminator squad. Then your army would be much more mobile and have much better anti-tank.

sorry im used to doing it on msn :(

I should add that I won 3 RTTs (1500 pts) in a row with an army like this:

Librarian w/ terminator armor, storm shield, nullzone, gate - 140
10 Terminators w/ cyclone x2 - 460
10 Assault Terminators w/ thunder hammer x10
10 Tactical Marines
10 Tactical Marines
10 Scouts

The additional Termies are there to bolster shooting and assault.
I faced outflanking Kommandoz, Scorpions, and Broodlord with Genestealers.
They can hardly be handled by the troops.

I would like to stay away from including one or two tanks since every lascannon will target it,
while lascannons are rather useless against infantry (besides taking down a Terminator that will eventually get a 4+ cover save).

I would take out the 7-man terminator squad and add in 2 units of 3 multimelta attack bikes. They would give you the ability to reach out to enemy armor (Land Riaders mostly) and hunt them down. Then give both tactical squad vet's meltabombs or throw in 2 chainfists into the 10-man terminator squad.

I would take out the 7-man terminator squad and add in 2 units of 3 multimelta attack bikes.

Indeed, I thought about this option since mech armies are rather popular these days.
Moreover, multimeltas are very useful vs MCs.

How well does this work against the top armies like horde orks, nob bikers, chaos dual lash oblit spam?

I have to agree that you want some multimelta attack bikes for killing land raiders and the like.

A mech dual lash list like what my friend plays just seems like a problem because they can lash your termies back into a clump and hit you with plasma cannons or demolisher and move away from you.

I'm working on a Space Cat Marine list myself for 1750 tournies and running into issues with Horde Orks and Chaos Dual Lash are both hard matches.

In fact, Orks could pose a problem. However, the army can decimate the front ranks of the first Ork wave rather quickly and the Termies are very resilient in cc. Thus Orks coming in waves will not cause serious problems. Recently, in one of the recent RTTs (1500 pts) I faced Simon's Orks in the final match and his Orks were coming in waves; total annihilation.

Dual lash is different. I'd play very defensively and when the DPs come close within 24'' the Librarian will eventually block their psychic powers. They would be number 1 on the target priority list.

A mech dual lash list like what my friend plays just seems like a problem because they can lash your termies back into a clump and hit you with plasma cannons or demolisher and move away from you.

How does this list look like?

i like it should work good but i would get a dread

I agree that you should get the multimelta attack bikes. as of now, you have little to kill AV14. In 1500 pts you could get away with that, but in 1750 there is a good chance you will run into landraider spam.

Maybe squeeze in a chainfist or 2 in each squad for dealing with AV14 tanks.

If It was me I would drop the shooty termies and get a LR to be bait, while (help sheild against lash) a attack bike squad ( to hunt other termy squads) with meltas hunts down their biggest threat. The Tac squads are good. But as a player that faces Chaos and Orcs constantly. I find that the flamer choice in my Tacs to be useless seeing that I get charged by stuff that is always out of template range. I have now put in plasma guns and cannon. I may switch to meltas but the cannons are so nice for popping termy formations.

Let me preface.. i am a newb.. what can I say.. been playing for about a year... have finally put together a list similar to this one.. just something about playing termies that I enjoy. sometimes I throw in my dreads... but anyways..

when playing multiple squads of termies (both regular and assault) what is the consensus on tactics... footslog/run or deep strike to a homer?

wuestenfux, how do you deploy/utilize your 1750 of goodness?

I am running a "red" salamanders army, so I dont use bikes or Land speeders... sometimes use an expensive devestator squad (dont have sternguard) for long range anti tank.

thanks

what are you planning gating around with the librarian?

I'd drop the 7 Terminators. Replace them with two units of 2 MM/HF speeders. I'd also probably give the tac squads both MM/M instead of the weapons they have. Spare points could probably be put into beefing up the scouts, like more models or camo cloaks. You'll have trouble with any sort of AV14 with that list, as you have exactly 1 melta - heck, even regular mech lists might give you serious trouble.

I have a real problem with the Gating Assault Terminator squad. It seems like against anyone who's not playing 4th Edition still, that squad will never do anything. Sure, you can deep strike somewhat close to the enemy and then run towards him, but unless their whole army is on foot (i.e. 4th Edition), they just move away from you and you can never catch them. Plus, you don't have any guns, so you can't even shoot them.

The rest of the terminators at least have guns, so they can slog towards the enemy and shoot at them, but it seems like a huge points investment (460 points?) for a squad who will never see combat unless the opponent wants them to, and who has relatively weak firepower (8 storm bolters and 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers). Any sort of mobile or mech army will just maneuver around your termies and torrent of fire them down (2+ save still fails 1/6 of the time).

How about a heavy flamer on the 7-man terminator sqaud?

Either lascannons on both of the tactical squads or have one of them packing a full melta loadout with a rhino or drop pod. That with your 54 str 8 close-combat weapons will deal with AV14. The cyclones & rocket launchers can pepper weaker vehicles. Again being smacked by tons of power fists.

Your limited on troops.. so you really want those few troops to survive. 18pts worth of camo cloaks will help deter people trying to shoot at those scouts (reduce them being the weakest component of the army). But why have you only got 4xsnipers, 1x rocket launcher with the 6th scout having a boltgun? Unless you mean 5x sniper's & it was a typo?

You definetely want 10 normal terminators for the dual cyclones. It doesnt make much differeance between 8-10 assault termies. Soo.. drop 2 assault termies, 1 normal termie off of the 7man team. Change the weapon to a h.flamer & then buy a second gating libarian. His secondary power could be avenger, machine curse, Might of the ancients, Vortex of doom. My personal favourite would be avenger followed closely by avenger because while lots of vehicles have spirit stones or extra armor - its not always taken plus a glancing hit can still cause more serious damage (immobilised or weapon destroyed etc). Avenger would compliment a h.flamer very well, machine curse would compliement a cyclone very well. Gate is a must. 2/3's of your termies are now highly mobile!

Razerous wrote:Gate is a must. 2/3's of your termies are now highly mobile!

Gate really doesn't make them that mobile. Yes, they can bounce around when they want to, but any turn they do that, they aren't assaulting (which is all the Assault Termies can do), and if they don't want to stay clumped up and begging for a blast template, they probably aren't shooting either. So yes, you have mobility, but the cost of that mobility is spending a turn doing nothing and hoping the opponent doesn't blast the crap out of you. And even if you survive a torrent of fire, you get to charge one sacrificial unit and then they torrent you some more. Or they just move away from you and you are forced to either Gate again or go chasing transports / bikes / jetpacks around the board.

Terminator Librarian with Gate isn't really a replacement for a real transport, and any real mech is just going to laugh and move away.

TehCheator wrote:

Razerous wrote:Gate is a must. 2/3's of your termies are now highly mobile!

Gate really doesn't make them that mobile. Yes, they can bounce around when they want to, but any turn they do that, they aren't assaulting (which is all the Assault Termies can do), and if they don't want to stay clumped up and begging for a blast template, they probably aren't shooting either. So yes, you have mobility, but the cost of that mobility is spending a turn doing nothing and hoping the opponent doesn't blast the crap out of you. And even if you survive a torrent of fire, you get to charge one sacrificial unit and then they torrent you some more. Or they just move away from you and you are forced to either Gate again or go chasing transports / bikes / jetpacks around the board.

Terminator Librarian with Gate isn't really a replacement for a real transport, and any real mech is just going to laugh and move away.

The first libby is to hop the assault termies (all 10 of them) forwards 24 inches + d6" run in one turn. That power will probably not get used again for the entire game if theyve got things to fight. I think thats pretty damn mobile. Second turn charge? Yes please.

wuestenfux wrote:
7 Terminators w/ cyclone - 310

Theres placement for the second libby. They can shoot loads & while templates can funnel lots of wounds onto the squad, running assault termies are fine & shooty-normal termies actually shoot back & can do so from range. From there, after he's finished gating, he can cast he v.useful utility power with impunity & engage any prime targets. Smaller sqaud makes it easier to gate around. One gating termie-squad can actually be avoided, fairly easily. Its a one singular squad to avoid. Two squads with gating potentail and things look alot more grim.

The only real detriement is how often you could loose a model to GoI (as there are no locator beacons..a plus to put a full-melta tac squad in a pod) and how easy it will actually be to move 10-11 termies up the field once to engage and another sqaud to hope around shooting/fighting stranglers.

Razerous:
The first libby is to hop the assault termies (all 10 of them) forwards 24 inches + d6" run in one turn. That power will probably not get used again for the entire game if theyve got things to fight. I think thats pretty damn mobile. Second turn charge? Yes please.

so... you want to move all that stuff 25-30 inches across the board... and have them sit there for a turn? sure they might be terminators... but with respect to that, they are just terminators. "oh oh cover save blah blah blah" yeah... let's gate around some terminators close enough to cover that i can scatter onto it... and then i mishap you across the table. what? you want to do it again? gate is made for sternguard. and sternguard were made for gate. please use appropriately.

and at any rate... 27 terminators is just fail in my opinion. sure... they are hard... but they die to plasma guns just like everyone else. what? double lash? 9 plasma cannons? that's dead terminators everywhere. let's not forget the units that will rock you in CC. bikers, wyches, etc... especially if you combat squad them.

dropping 17 terminators, and having 2, 5 man squads of thunder hammers gives you... 2 land raiders and a tac saqud? maybe some rhinos for two tac squads? and if you equip the tac squads properly with flamers and multi meltas.... well then you have a much scarier force.

i understand wanting to play with what models you have. unfortunately every now and again this route ends with a poorly composed army list.

PLay Emperor's Children. They are way cooler than SM.

phiasco wrote:

so... you want to move all that stuff 25-30 inches across the board... and have them sit there for a turn? sure they might be terminators... but with respect to that, they are just terminators. "oh oh cover save blah blah blah" yeah... let's gate around some terminators close enough to cover that i can scatter onto it... and then i mishap you across the table. what? you want to do it again? gate is made for sternguard. and sternguard were made for gate. please use appropriately.

What are you talking about? Turn one, in my movement phase I shall decide use my Gate of Infinity Psychic power (obviously, hopefully passing) where-by I remove my libarain + terminators from the board and place them 24" towards where-ever. If its the 10man assault terminater block then itll be toward the bulk of the army. They come in as-per deep strike but I can happily run them D6" to spread them out & move them a litter further towards the enemy.

Second turn I move 6" and maybe charge 6". If for some reason I cannot charge I run another turn.

OR.. I move/run for 4-5 turns to cover the same distance. Whats this about "sit there for a turn"? They are assault terminators. 3+ invunerable. Im quite happy if an enemy pumps tons of ap1-2 firepower into these guys. They can take it & they are protecting thier weaker normal terminator brothers. Anyways, even a 2+/5++ is not bad by any stretch.

phiasco wrote:
and at any rate... 27 terminators is just fail in my opinion. sure... they are hard... but they die to plasma guns just like everyone else. what? double lash? 9 plasma cannons? that's dead terminators everywhere. let's not forget the units that will rock you in CC. bikers, wyches, etc... especially if you combat squad them.

Aha.. Ahaha.. Assault terminaters will not die hard to plasma cannon fire. They could actually soak up a good amount of those wounds from all 9 oblits then charge. Double lash you say? Psychic hood I say. Try not to spout stuff without giving it a fair thought either way.
& Units will rock my terminators? Gee gosh, I guess thier not all that good in close combat. Assault terminators are one of -the- counters to nob bikers. Dunno much about DE.. But im pretty sure AYSKNF and a 3+ invunerable pretty much covers it.

Lastly.. landraiders. Yes, they are awesome. They are fast & shooty. They can be blown up with one shot. With terminators & lots of them you are forcing your opponent to cause alot of wounds to remove those models. Terminator heavy lists arent shoddy. Its just different.

Everything on foot? 1 melta? So how do you take on mech? You wait for them to stay put when you teleport and 8 kraks to do wonders?

I'd work with the 2x10 Terminator list and get some serious anti-tank. Outflanking Kommandoz, Scorpions, and Broodlord with Genestealers are hardly a measuring point of the success of a list in a varied mech-encouraged enviroment.

Well, guys, this army is terribly good. I won three RTTs in a row at the 1500 pt level with 20 Termies. My friends told me not to play this army again.
So today, I fielded dual lash army and I felt that my SM army is way harder to take down (but I still won the RTT).

The idea is to place the full Termie squads in front, while the smaller Termie squad could be held back if e.g. the enemy has outflankers. In the RTTs I faced Kommandoz and Broodlord with Genestealers. Then a Termie squad works wonders to keep the Tacticals alive.

The Asault Termies are slow but they can run. If spaced out, a plasma cannon can only hit one Termie and thus will be rather ineffective. Running is a must have and once the Assault Termies get the charge, the enemy starts crippling.

My Libby always got the gating ability but I rarely gated the Termies (only if I was able to find a spot 7'' away from terrain, enemy, and board edge).

Razerous wrote:What are you talking about? Turn one, in my movement phase I shall decide use my Gate of Infinity Psychic power (obviously, hopefully passing) where-by I remove my libarain + terminators from the board and place them 24" towards where-ever. If its the 10man assault terminater block then itll be toward the bulk of the army. They come in as-per deep strike but I can happily run them D6" to spread them out & move them a litter further towards the enemy.

Second turn I move 6" and maybe charge 6". If for some reason I cannot charge I run another turn.

The point we (phiasco and I) are both trying to make is that turn 1 you do your teleport thing and then run, now you are probably within 12" of the opponent, but probably not right up close to him (since I assume you don't like losing an entire unit of Terminators to a bad scatter, so you play smart and don't Deep Strike too close to the enemy). You are then forced to sit there for a turn, because you can't assault on that turn. Your opponent takes his turn, moves all of his mech / mobile forces (since you know, we're playing 5th edition and not being mobile = autofail) away from you at least 6", maybe as much as 24". Then they shoot everything they have at you. Sure, you have a 2+/3+, but you will fail saves and models will die. Maybe only 1 or 2, but here's the rub: Since they are faster than you, they have moved away and you now have to spend a turn moving towards the enemy and running again.

Next turn, same story: They move away from you (and they are faster, so you will never catch them) and then they shoot you. Eventually, the squad is dead and didn't ever do anything, because instead of putting them in a transport, you wanted to gate them around with a Libby.

Yes, it's a tough-to-kill list, but any experienced general with an actual 5th edition list is either going to be faster than you so you will never get into combat unless they want you to, or they will feed you throwaway units worth 1/2 the points and keep shooting you. You'll do great against the all-infantry las/plas SM lists of last edition, but against mobile armies you are basically screwed, since you will spend the whole game running to try and catch up with them.

Also, just because you have a 2+/3+, you will still die to massed plasma cannon fire. Figure they lash you together and then tag you with all 9 Plasma Cannons. You are looking at each cannon hitting say 2 guys (being very generous). 9x2 = 18 hits. Wound on 2+, so 15 wounds. You save on a 3+, so you still fail 5 saves. Two turns of that and you are gone, and that's with the cannons only hitting 2 guys per on average. They will likely hit way more than that.

TehCheator: Your analysis is missing three points.

First, if the enemy shoots the Assault Termies he shoots nothing else; not bad for a non-scoring unit.

Second, when the Assault Termies move through the center, the enemy has to decide either to split the army into two parts each moving towards one flank, or to keep the army together and moving to one side. In both cases the Assault Termies can bridge the gap between them and the enemy rather quickly, since the enemy cannot escape if located at one corner.

Third, a mech army moving away from the Assault Termies will have a hard time shooting them down, since tanks are pillboxes in 5th ed and so can generally shoot only part of their weapons after movement.

In addition to what wuestenfux said;

The ability to use GoI > The lack of the ability to use GoI

i.e Being able to move 25-30" in one turn > being able to move 7-12" in one turn (obviously 12" on a charge)

My point is.. if those termies walk at you.. thier still going to get shot at. There isnt any differenace besides from range & small arms fire which termies can wade through all day long. Heavy TEQ killers will generally be able to hit at range anyway.

My point is.. if those termies walk at you.. thier still going to get shot at. There isnt any differenace besides from range & small arms fire which termies can wade through all day long. Heavy TEQ killers will generally be able to hit at range anyway.

Right.
But the enemy will be busy for a while to take down the Termies.
In one recent RTT, I faced a shooty mech Eldar army with 2x3 Warwalkers and 2x2 Vypers and whatnot, all equipped with scatter lasers.
The Assault Termies moved through the centre to approach the Eldar army as soon as possible. They got killed, but in the meantime my army decimated the Eldar heavily. At the end he had the Serpent and 3 Warwalkers left, while I only lost the Assault Termies.